If a Christian Commits Suicide, Is He Still Forgiven?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003

Answers

I'd want to say yes he is forgiven, but I don't know.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

David, your doctrine teaches you that a dead man cannot confess and repent his sins, he is dead and that is that. One sins when one kills. Catholicism does not close the coffin and that is it, "next!".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

David, Methinks you need a break from this forum. You are asking AND ANSWERING your own questions. That's sort of like having a conversation with yourself outloud!! LOL! Just kidding; I do it all the time, just not in cyberspace.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 06, 2003.

Yea, I think I do. But I ask the questions to get people to talk about them and no one does, so I just have to answer them

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

A man attends church and willingly would proclaim "I do believe in Jesus Christ." This same man works tirelessly to earn himself expensive cars and grand houses for his own luxury. Is this man saved? No. Why? He has yet to understand the fear of God, how to live for Christ and the true significance of his salvation. This man is no different from any other non-christian man.

Now why do I believe that he who kills himself is not saved? Because I believe if he can even genuinely consider suicide as an option to solve his problems, then he has a deficient understanding of the fundamentals of Christianity. I do believe that God cannot see the sins of those who take up their cross daily. I also believe that there are some things that those Christians do not ever consider- things such as self-mutilation or worse, suicide.

This is a debate we had in our cell group.. i argued they are not forgiven. i hope this has been helpful to you!

-- Bonnie (smiles4bonnie@mail.com), August 15, 2003.

Hi Bonnie.

Any rational human would not commit suicide. Any person who has a strong faith in Jesus would not commit suicide. Any atheist with a sense of intelligences would not commit suicide. But, some are weak. Some people cannot handle what they perceive as being extreme suffering or torment. These people cannot find the solutions that normal people find. Some people are actually committing a slow gradual suicide by continually practicing their evil vices.

We give suicide its name--sin. We can even say that those who commit suicide are unforgiven of this sin. Basically, we can say whatever we wish. But, we do not know what the suicidal person knows. We do not know how God sees the suicidal person. We do not know what happens at the instant of death and the moments prior to death. We do not know if the suicide was preceded with an instance of regret or confession. We do not know how powerful God's grace is for all of us during our most dark and fallen moments. We do not know if God has forgiven them for their sins.

Yes, suicide is a sin. But, the sinner has his or her moment with God. Let God judge.

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 15, 2003.

Hi Bonnie

You wrote:

"A man attends church and willingly would proclaim "I do believe in Jesus Christ." This same man works tirelessly to earn himself expensive cars and grand houses for his own luxury. Is this man saved? No. Why? He has yet to understand the fear of God, how to live for Christ and the true significance of his salvation. This man is no different from any other non-christian man.

I do believe that Jesus said that it was difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, but not impossible. It seems to me that you are saying that this man is not saved because he is rich. And, to be rich goes against God's will. Or, at least, this is what I understand as I read your post. There are a few characters in the Bible who were powerful and some who were rich and both faithful. But, Lazarus could not give up his riches to follow Jesus. Jesus did not condemn him. Who should I believe, you or Jesus?

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 15, 2003.

My view is that his sins are forgiven. Yes he did a bad thing, but when does one sin forfeit our salvation? Is it not the same if a man dies telling a lie? Was Christ sacrifice on the cross not enough to cover the sin of suicide?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 15, 2003.

I can almost agree with you, David.

I'll show you what I mean:

David: My view is that his sins are forgiven.
rod: My view is that I hope his sins are forgiven.

David: Yes he did a bad thing, but when does one sin forfeit our salvation?
rod: Yes, he did a bad thing, but we commit many sins and if we do not confess those sins and repent, those sins will truly forfit our Salvation.

David: Is it not the same if a man dies telling a lie?
rod: Is it not the same if a man committs another sin that is just as serious as a lie that can destroy the soul?

David: Was Christ sacrifice on the cross not enough to cover the sin of suicide?
rod: Was Christ' sacrifice on the cross not enough to cover the sin of suicide that we can hope that the one committing suicide may still have had a chance to confess and repent, even in suicide?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 15, 2003.

No rod, I am wrong and have been deceived. Suicide is wrong because scripture tells us it is wrong.

"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16,17 NIV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 21, 2003.

Rod; i think you have taken what i said out of context.. i did not mean that a rich man will not get into heaven. i meant merely that there are many peoples who attend church yet they are no different from anyone else in the world.. i think these are the people who commit suicide.. i agree when you said there is suffering that i probably cant imagine. yet the bible also says: "God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it." (1Corinthians 10:13-14 NIV) i trust in Jesus. and i believe there will always be a way out.

-- Bonnie (smiles4bonnie@mail.com), September 08, 2003.

I don't think a true Christian will ever go suicidal.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 09, 2003.

Hi Bonnie.

I understand the context of your words and meanings. I have considered those illnesses and conditions that take over a person's mental and spiritual existence. Schizophrenia, dementia, depression, cancer, and you name it. These are conditions that we don't ask for, yet they alter our thinking. I cannot say what the victim is actually experiencing, but I can imagine. I cannot say that they can resist suicidal thoughts and actions, because, again, I don't know what they are experiencing. Sure, a normally average and healthy Christian would probably not contemplate suicide. But, we should consider what happens to the person victimized by things he/she has no control over.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 09, 2003.

David writes: ""Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple." (1 Corinthians 3:16,17 NIV"

I agree, but I do have a question:

If our bodies are the temple of God, then why do we have all of the diseases and abnormallities that destroy our "temples" and spirit?

I didn't ask for these things.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 09, 2003.

yes, Bonnie.

There are many people who claim to be Christians, but do not fool anyone except themselves. I can believe such a thing to be true. The execusion of the abortion-doctor killer brings such a thought to mind. The killer believed that he did what God wanted him to do. The killer believes that he will be in Heaven for the actions/sins he has committed. This seems too crazy to believe, doesn't it?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 09, 2003.

Hi Everyone, I would just like to add this point. What if the Christian in question, was facing some terrible ordeal, say major surgery and a lot of physical pain, and that person was weak, and felt that they really could not cope with the trauma ahead, and so decided to end their life to be with Jesus, to be embaced by Him, away from the pain of this world. Do you think that that person would be forgiven, or not?

-- Robert Franks (rob.franks@lineone.net), September 14, 2003.

I believe that when a person has faith in Christ, and knows that he has Salvation, and he knows that God will not provide a suffering greater than he can endure, the person's patients will have its meaning given to him when his soul arrives in Heaven. Afterall, what torment or suffering is so great that we would sacrifice our own Salvation in order to relieve the pain that is only temporary before our final journey into God's hands? Did Jesus Christ endure his suffering on the cross for our sins or did he say "enough is enough, let me just do myself in, I can't take the sufferring"? No, we should trust in Him and endure until He accepts our soul, which we offer to Him.

Sins forgiven? Let's hope so.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

But, the key word is "weak". I cannot begin to imagine the pain a "weak" person may endure. I would/must have faith in that Jesus would handle it. I wouldn't dare make such a decision for Jesus. But, wasn't it Peter who denied Christ three times. It was is weakness that caused him to fall in his faith. Let's look at the outcome of Peter. And, nothing is possible by man, but all things are possible through God.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

But what about Christ saying 'Come unto Me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you Eternal rest'. Does this sound like suicide? ... I think God is personal and compassionate and views each suicide on a case by case basis. He may have compassion, he may not have compassion .

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), October 15, 2003.

Well have you heard of Jim Jones, I'm sure you have. Or, how about the Heaven's Gate cult. These cults made their own apocalyptic resolve, they were forced or conditioned for suicide. I would not like any religious leader using that verse to justify any suicidal action for their congregation.

I hope God will have His Devine Mercy on those who are weak. I also pray for His Mercy.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Hi,

I was reading all your answers and comments. I think that someone who commits suicide is at a weak point in his or her life, however, I don't think that commiting suicide is something that can never be forgiven. I was taught as a young girl in church that all our sins are forgiven. One of you said that a dead man cannot repent....then what about someone killed in an auto accident suddenly? Someone who falls a long distance accidentally and dies? A baby who is still- born? All of those are "instant death" scenarios. I believe that God forgives us of our sins.....even those who are suffering through so much pain that he or she cannot see past the evil darkness of depression to see the light of God on the other side. Depression is a very strong emotion....one that can capture a person's heart and mind and even soul. Depression that is so deep that it leads a person to think about suicide, leads a person to believe that no one else around them is going to be upset or angry....even God....because that person is generally so relieved and at peace with the decision at the time it is made.

Trust me, I know this.

Tabitha

-- Tabitha Borrow (tobo61@comcast.net), October 20, 2003.

Hi Tabitha-

You've brought up some very important examples. I'm pressed for time right now, so I'll give some short answers:

1. an infant is innocent and his/her soul is pure. (Adam's sin??)
2. we must prepare to die at any moment and stay "sanctified".
3. (This is the kicker, for some.) Purgatory (of some sort) is the place of cleansing of the soul. I don't exactly understand the complete concept of Purgatory, but I do sense that such a thing must exist. If it does not exist, then how will God give those sudden death souls Salvation? Particularly, those who have not known the Gospel--if that's possible--should have a chance, if not on earth, at least prior to entering the Kingdom of God in Heaven?

There is more to this. Later...

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 20, 2003.

I too believe that there must be some kind of cleansing of the soul. I'm not Catholic but I believe those who now languish in Hell, might somehow get a chance at Eternal Life. The Lords' mercy endures forever. Why would the Lambs' Book Of Life be opened at the Great White Throne Judgement (which is meant for non-Christians) when they had already been in Hell? Maybe they had learned about Christ while in Hell and God Had given them a final chance at the Great White Throne Judgement to prove that their names appears in His Lambs' Book Of Life, before being ultimately cast into the Lake Of Fire, both their resurrected bodies and souls, for not. As tradition had it Christ descended into the lower depths of the earth after He died to bring Adam and some other believers out of Hell. How did Adam get to know Christ? And if Adam got out of Hell through the Devine Mercies of God, then should'nt all of Adams' decendents (Human Beings) get that chance if they chose to accept it in Hell? Now I not saying that you should not accept Christ in this life and wait till you get to Hell then only accept Him. Please don't get me wrong. You should accept Christ now in this life. I'm just saying those who never had a chance in this life to get to know Him, may get that chance in Hell as tough as it may be. I'm saying The Lord Jesus Christ is Loving and Understanding and Righteous and Fair. Please don't get me wrong, just like my previous message. I'm just saying the Lord is Mercyful that none should perish but come to repentance. I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm just speaking my mind. You should always live by His commandments in this life to avoid Hell in the first place.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), October 28, 2003.

I'm sorry you misunderstood my view of suicide. All I said that, if that person had already committed the that act of suicide, due to some circumstances out of his/her control, then maybe just maybe the Lord would have mercy. I'm not saying that, that person should end his/her life just because Christ had spoken those words and given them an easy option. I said The Lord may have mercy or HE MAY NOT. I'm ashamed you compared my view to Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate Cult. These are brain-washing cults who belief in U.F.O.s ( or fallen angels ) I'm sorry again, a Christian should NOT commit suicide no matter how difficult the situation is. Consider the afflictions of Job. And you should live for the Lord, and not for yourself. I'm just sharing my views, never follow me, I'm terribly wrong, never follow what men think or say.Follow CHRIST Commandments and Laws of The Holy Bible to be saved from Hell.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), October 30, 2003.

Hi Felix.

I think I know what you meant and I don't see anything offensive about what you've written. I don't think that you need to feel any shame either. My response was geared to those who may have not understood what you wrote and I simply wanted to clarify any misconceptions.

God provided Salvation for all men (including women, of course). I tend to believe that if this is true, then all will be given that free will to choose Salvation. In the event that one dies suddenly, I would maintain that believe that God would provide Salvation. We can look at it from our human perspective, but it is God that makes the impossible possible.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

"I would maintain that belief..."(not "believe", sorry).

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

I forgot one view point in my previous statement. I was saying that those in Hell would somehow get a chance at Eternal Life. Maybe. But not those fallen angels (or demons) who also shudder and tremble at the thought of Hell. As their Sin is original and they were Sinning since the Beginning, trying to take over The Throne Of God (Christ), tempting men and causing men to sin, and being in a spiritual realm of finality (without physical bodies) from the beginning, it is therefore not possible for those fallen angels, to obtain salvation. Further more they were not created in the Image of God, but men (and women) were created in His Image. The Lord has a physical Body and so does mankind. But angels and fallen angels don't, for theirs is supernatural. Therefore I think this is justified. Sharing my views again. God Bless.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 03, 2003.

Hi Felix.

Yup, I think I agree with your belief in that the Angels have a different arrangement with God, seperate from us mortals.

I think it was some Islamic essay where I read that Satan was jealous of God's creation--Man. Satan did not like the idea that the Angels had to serve under Man. So, Satan started a rebellion. It was an interesting essay, but then again, it dealt with Islamic theology. The essay was in the Quran.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

Remember Christ words, 'Depart from Me ye cursed into the Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels'. "Into the Fire prepared for the DEVIL and his ANGELS (demons)" These are Christ words to those at The Great White Throne Judgement. Certainly men through their own arrogance even in Hell, had condemned themselves to an Eternity in the Lake of Fire, worse than Hell. God knows everybody by their heart. He knows why they had sometimes, had to do what they felt they had to do, while alive on earth. Up to the Lord to have the final say.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 03, 2003.

Is it really? I'm not ever going to think of even supporting Islam. But I believe this in Christian faith. As Islam had copied the Bible. (Catholic). I'm sorry I'm taking up to much of your response page. It's beginning to look like a chat room. Thanks anyway for your response. God Bless.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 03, 2003.

I had stumbled across that Islamic writing while reading up on the different beliefs in the existence of "Paradise". I consider Islam likened to mythology in some respects. The temptation to read the Quran hit me once, I snapped out of it very quickly though. But, the bit about Satan being jealous of Man does seem to come across in the Holy Bible.

BTW, the rules don't say anything about introducing "off topic" discussions. For me, all topics eventually lead to one subject--Christianity.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

Yes, here I am again. I didn't say that Satan were jealous of man, and Satan did not like the idea of angels having to serve under man, and therefore started a rebellion in Heaven, at the Creation. This is Islam. I said LUCIFER had wanted to take over The Throne Of God (Christ), since the Beginning, before the Creation of man. Satan only caused man to sin, because he was jealous God had placed the earth under him (Adam), instead of him (Satan) and his angels. (tempting men and causing men to sin). Can you see the difference. I'm not incorporating Islam. Islam twists the truth, like the Catholic faith. And Islam also speaks of Jesus (only as a prophet). The fallen angels now regret their actions of following their leader, Lucifer. Thats all I'm saying. I think I better stick to the suicide topic. Thanks.

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 03, 2003.

Yes. I understand your view very clearly. I threw in that "jealous of Man" bit as a side point of Islam. Yes, Islam views Jesus as a prophet. Mohammad led the prayer of all in Heaven and puts Jesus as "second fiddle"--ridiculous idea of those Islamics. Yes, I agree on most of what you said.

It is that after reading the Book of Job, I can't help but consider the jealousy towards Man and his Creator. Nothing would make Satan happier than Man cursing his Creator and Man committing suicide.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

But, we must also have faith in God and His Devine Mercy and Grace. As we have mentioned in this thread, we cannot judge.

rod.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

I agree with you too, Rod, therefore Christians should live for The Lord and not die for themselves. God Bless.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 05, 2003.

Hi Rod, Looking back on my comments, I'm sorry if I sounded rude. Didn't mean it really. I had just lost my dear father due to stroke, a month ago. I myself felt like committing suicide, and comforted myself with my own words. That is why I come to this site.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 05, 2003.

But not to worry with my father, he is well and alive with the Lord. It's me I'm worried about.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 05, 2003.

I attended a visitation today of a deceased church friend . I didn't get that usual sadness, instead I felt a sense of peace.

Hi Felix.

It is probably safe to say that many of us have felt a certain degree of hoplessness and even had suicidal thoughts. It seems that when we can understand why or cope with the aftermath, we see that giving up on life is much easier than having to suffer. But, to suffer in life can be a temporary thing. It may not seem like it at first, but time can bring some comfort a little each day.

I once hit rock bottom and felt that life was basically of no relevance to me. I had lost someone who I felt I could no longer live without. It suddenly hit me that I then had nowhere else to go, but up. Every option had been reduced to one action. I was to bring myself out of that doom and gloom because anything I would do was in the opposite direction of that doom. Suicide is final with worse consequences that we pay in the next life.

As I look back, I can see how wrong my life was. I truly believe that God has shown me my errors; He did not provide those temptations, of course. But, He did provide people and events to help me along the way. I have a loving wife (Christian), two children, and an active religious life. I had to go through those trials and tribulations in my younger years to get to this point in life. That instant in time that was the critical point of life or death never saw what I have today. This is the gamble of suicide. Suicide loses the gamble; life will eventually win. We do not know what the future holds, but our faith in God makes life worth the gamble, even if a little temporary suffering is included. There is a purpose for our suffering, which will eventually be revealed.<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.

I believe gets really angry with people who commit suicide, Rod.

The Bible doesn't give you too many good cases on suicide. Only the bad ones are publicized: Saul, Judas Iscariot,...

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

"If a Christian Commits Suicide, Is He Still Forgiven?"

Absolutely NOT!!!

David is CORRECT on this one.

Suicide is MURDER and God SPECIFICALLY states in Revelation 21:8, "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

If all the sins that man can commit have to be confessed and then repented, do you believe that God--His Devine Mercy--would not allow the sin of suicide a chance for confession and repentance? Would God have such anger to refuse the sinner's chance for Salvation, even in God's time frame? Where does this put Christ's sacrifice for all human souls? Are we saying that suicide is a more severe sin than any of the other sins? Are we now making an argument for Venial and Mortal sins? So, the other sins, which we have time to confess and repent, are not as severe as suicide, which gives us no time (in our perception) to confess nor repent, yes? Interesting!

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

rod,

Why do you have a problem understanding what God has PLAINLY revealed in His Word???

Did God say that all MURDERERS will be thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE??? Yes or No???

You wrote, "If all the sins that man can commit have to be confessed and then repented, do you believe that God--His Devine Mercy--would not allow the sin of suicide a chance for confession and repentance?"

What does Hebrews 9:27 say??? "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

What does 2 Corinthians 6:2 say??? "...Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

There are NO second chances after someone dies.

You wrote, "Would God have such anger to refuse the sinner's chance for Salvation, even in God's time frame?"

What does Romans 1:28-32 say??? "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, MURDER, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, that those who practice such things ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

You wrote, "Where does this put Christ's sacrifice for all human souls? Are we saying that suicide is a more severe sin than any of the other sins?"

What does God say in Acts 17:30??? "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but NOW COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT,"

Christ died for the "ungodly" but they must come to Him. (Matthew 11:28-30).

You wrote, "Are we now making an argument for Venial and Mortal sins?"

There is NO such thing as "Venial" or "Mortal sins". This is another INVENTION of the Catholic Church to extract more money from their laity.

You wrote, "So, the other sins, which we have time to confess and repent, are not as severe as suicide, which gives us no time (in our perception) to confess nor repent, yes? Interesting!"

Jesus will return, "IN FLAMING FIRE taking VENGEANCE on those who DO NOT KNOW GOD, AND on those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. These shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. (2 Thess. 1:8-10).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

SACRED TRUTH : THE ROCK ~ THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS : Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Gosh!! It is so uncanny! Someone once mentioned that my comments sounded very Catholic. I tell you; I have not spent much time with the catechism. Yes, I know. Some of you can tell.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.

Rod said, "Divine Mercy"

yes, Rod, you're right on the mark.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.

Dear readers,

Please notice the comment, "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance." has absolutely NO basis in the Word of God.

God PLAINLY states that MURDERERS will be cast INTO the Lake of Fire so who is man to say that God will not do what He has already revealed in His Word He will accomplish???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 08, 2003.

If what you interpret is true, how do you explain Saul/Paul and the chance for repentance given to him by God? Why would God not give all men the same chance for repentance, even in suicide?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

I know that I'm restricted to the N.T., but Moses was given a chance for repentance. Surely, God was still God in the O.T.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

rod,

Paul/Saul and Moses did NOT kill themselves that is why they had a chance for repentance.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 09, 2003.

rod,

A True Believer in Christ will never consider suicide. A True Believer has hope (Acts 24:15; Romans 5:2-5, 8:24; 2 Corinthians 1:10) and a purpose in life (Luke 9:23-25; Romans 8:28; Colossians 1:29). A suicidal person does not have a purpose in life, and has lost hope. I doubt a person commiting suicide is saved.

God Bless!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 10, 2003.

KEVIN! You are the one who brought up murder.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

HELLO?!--God PLAINLY states that MURDERERS will be cast INTO the Lake of Fire so who is man to say that God will not do what He has already revealed in His Word He will accomplish???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 08, 2003.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

rod,

Suicide IS murder...HELLO!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 10, 2003.

Moses and Saul/Paul KILLED other people, HELLO(infinite power~ and beyond)

My point is that all things are possible with God. If Moses and Saul/Paul can be presumed innocent of KILLING, then why can't one who committs suicide? It is up to God's Devine Mercy, Aloha!, Que Tal, Guten Tag, Bien Vinuto, Coment Tale Vous, Jombo, Buenos Dias, Frank Sinatra...etc.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.

I never said that it wasn't murder, Kevin.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

rod,

Very well, you didn't say suicide wasn't murder. The question you asked about Saul/Paul and Moses "why did they have a chance to repent" and not those who kill themselves.

I think this is what you are asking is that correct???

If this is correct, the reason is because they still had a chance to repent. They were still alive here on this earth. After one dies, there is NO chance for them to repent. Go back and re-read the story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man's fate was sealed after he died just as Lazarus fate was sealed after he died. The word of God is specific on this issue for Hebrews 9:26 says "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

"Behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the day of salvation." (2 Cor 6:2).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 11, 2003.

The issue here is forgiveness. If a man jumps in front of a bullet in order to save his son, the man knows that what he is about to do is committ suicide by saving his son. The man is putting his life in place of his son's life. Many soldiers who go off to war may also know the same circumstances. They may know that certain missions may be considered suicide missions, yet they do the job in order to protect the innocent. And, as we've have discussed, some people may loose their ability to think rationally and resort to suicide. I am not so fast to condemn these people because of their higher sense of duty/purpose or mental deficiency. We cannot draw such distinct lines because we never know what was in the victim's mind or heart; God knows.

rod..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

"...we've have..."??? huh?

"...loose..." make that "lose".

I can't write passed 7:00 p.m..

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

rod,

If someone gives their life for another, it is NOT suicide. If this is the case, then Jesus is guilty of committing suicide because he died for all of us. (John 10:15-18).

Romans 5:6-8 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Jesus said in John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 11, 2003.

Okay, here's a tough point to clarify. Lets say a man committed suicide because he was balding. I guess he would indeed end up in Hell. Because isn't life more important than hair? Sure it is. He did it for his own personal interest and not Gods' purpose for his life. And I guess whatever hair he had left on his head, would also be burned off in Hell. Case closed. Second case. Now there's a man trapped in a burning tower. He had wished he could somehow continue to live. But however, the tower was on fire and the intense heat and billowing smoke from the flames was much too much to bear. In a split second, he decided to jump off the burning tower and commit suicide. Knowing very well that when he jumped, he would end up obliterated and dead when he hit the hard cold cement below. But then again, if he just stayed in the burning tower and let himself be burned alive to death, and do nothing to save himself, wouldn't it also be counted as suicide? Thus, he acted as what any normal person would do in that moment of physical pain and desperation. Now here's the question. Would God view the balding man who committed suicide,and the man who threw himself off the burning tower and also committed suicide,the same?, both Murderers and both Cowards? Wouldn't God weigh more compassion on the man who wanted to continue living, but due to circumstances out off his control, had decided to commit suicide by jumping off or be burned to death by suicidally staying back in the burning tower? I rest my case. I do not condone the act of self Murder too.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur. (feraflex@lycos.com), November 11, 2003.

Hi Felix.

The bald guy case seems clear cut (sorry for the pun). But, I would wonder if the bald guy had some huge mental problem that prevented him from making rational decisions. A rational man or woman would not committ suicide over going bald. So, would the bald guy still be forgiven?

The guy in the towering inferno case seems like a hot issue. I want to imagine the guy praying and asking for forgiveness for what he is about to do. He knows that he is going to die, so the only decision is how he will accept death--burn or jump. But, I wonder if this is a true case of suicide. Wouldn't somebody be blamed for the fire? This would fall under someone's neglegence or premedition. It seems like wrongful death or homicide. The burning man is nonetheless being klled/murdered and, therefore, he is being pushed out that window. He is merely choosing the lesser of two evils. I would find him blameless of committing suicide. I sure hope that he is in prayer and Grace when he dies, if he dies.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

Geez ... Rod guy, I'm on your side man ...

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 11, 2003.

True Story

My first few years of teaching encountered a situation involving a young girl who was around 17 or 18 years old. She was a student in my music history class. As became a little more famiar with her, I noticed that she had some severe scarring on the insides of her wrists. I asked about the scars not realizing what they meant. She asked me if I knew about her. It seemed that of the entire school, I was the only one who didn't know about her previous suicide attempts. I later learned that her suicide attempts centered around love for her older boyfriend. That summer I received the news from another teacher who had been keeping tabs on "Sarah" (fake name). Every care in the world had stopped in that moment when the teacher told me that "Sarah" had killed herself. We remained quiet on the phone for a moment. My next words were, "If only I could have spent more time talking with her...".

She was so young and so confused. She had no one strong enough to break through her confused thinking. Her age makes reality so unchangeable. I wish that we could have made a difference in her suffering. I wish we could have saved her from that confusion. I pray.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

Here is one:

A man or woman decides to do some serious drinking and knows that accessive drinking is dangerous. He/she has no designated driver, but continues to drink until their mental facilities are unreliable. The man/woman climbs into the car and proceeds down the road where tragedy strikes. The man/woman crashes into another and kills the ocupants and himself/herself. Not only is this a case of homicide, it sure does seem like suicide. The drinker has been warned and is knowledgeable about the dangers of drinking and driving. The drinker knows of stories and has probably seen the aftermath of drinking and driving, yet the drinker ignores the danger and committs these crimes. In this case, has the drinker also committed suicide? And, how is this different from the previously mentioned cases of suicide?

rod..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

Uh..."excessive".....uh.....not "accessive"......what's in my drink?

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

I'm sorry to hear about the sad true story of that young girl whom you knew. I guess I would go back to what I had previously stated, that The Lord would view each suicide case, on a case by case basis. I can't be sure though. I cannot judge. May the Lord have Mercy, and the last say. Thanks.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 11, 2003.

I need a designated typist!

I'm still trying to figure out what "premedition" means. That should have been "premeditation". Maybe, I should start using a dictionary or something?!

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

Thanks Felix. It happened back in 1987 or so.

So, what about the martyrs? Surely, they died under God's Grace, yes?

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.

rod,

I blame the fire.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 11, 2003.

rod said,"A man or woman decides to do some serious drinking and knows that accessive drinking is dangerous."

Jehovah says,"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19- 21 / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

Hi David.

Well, that is my example for suicide. It would seem that the drinkers/drunkereds are closer to the condemnable sin of suicide when they knowingly go against God. The weak are confused or unable to make such fine decisions. The normal person knowingly drinks themselves to death. There is a big difference. But, it isn't only drunken-ness, many things lead to death over a long period of time. So, there is such a thing as a slow suicide. The vices that men do are those slow suicides, if they all lead to disobedience to God.

The only fires that I know of that have no human culprit are those ignited by nature--lightning, friction, reactions, God. Man is responsible for all other disasters because man is fallible. Not only fire, some people actually build homes on floodways and then wonder why their homes have been washed away. Some build great structures and believe that nothing will crumble it to the ground and are surprised when people die as the building collapses. Some stay in their houses to battle out the hurricane and then wonder why their loved ones are killed by the storm. No, there is always a point of blame. I've heard of people struck by lightning more than a handful of times. That is eerie.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

And before this discussion splinters off into the issues surrounding "drinking", I am not against "drinking". It is permitted, but not to the point of getting drunk or having control over the drinker. I think food has more of an impact on our temptations and lack of control. Food has a slow kill effect on us, while alcohol abuse is more obvious with its sudden tragedies.

Take a good look around our American society and count the number of overweight people. There really isn't any excuse for our healthy problems related to over-eating (there are exceptions). Whose fault is it? Our own fault. We are literally eating ourselves to death. Sure, we all die, but our diets are providing an early arrival to our fate. So, shouldn't we do something about it? I've read that we should work the soil for our food. It would be nice to have everyone toil for their food as farmers. This will surely get your cholesterol down to healthy levels, but we don't listen. We want the fast life, the easy life, and we don't want to work hard. It is ok for our bodies to function harder, but not our physical labor, wierd.

So, as we point our fingers at all of those drunks out there, we overlook the most obvious of sinful habits--gluttony. Americans and gluttony seem to be synonymous. The best remedy? How about following the Atkins Diet......uh, no........how about following God's Word? Yes? We all must eat to stay alive. Food may be viewed as a temptation or a God given provision that sustains fleshly life. Don't let it become a temptation. It is difficult to do, especially in our fast food society. But, others have beat the temptations and so can the rest.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Rod said, "So, what about the martyrs? Surely, they died under God's Grace, yes?"

Indeed they did. Not only did the christian martyrs get baptised in holy water and Holy Spirit but they also got baptised in their own holy blood ~ an additional Grace from God. The christian martyrs had a choice whether to renounce the christian faith and live or to boldly proclaim the christian faith and die. Having chosen the latter is in a way a "form of suicide" because they knew the exact consequence of their righteous choice. Christ Himself knew beforehand that Death would be the consequence of His Righteous Choice ~ he had the privilege of water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism ~ and blood baptism as a Christian Martyr for Humankind ~ being 100% human being Himself, Jesus was most privileged ~ but also, He was 100% God Himself, therefore his Divine Blood cleansed our sins once and for all. Nowadays, our fellow christians in Muslim countries and communist countries face the same privilege of martyrdom. We are blessed by the blood of martyrs for they are the seeds for the furtherance of the christian faith.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

Now here's another. A man is confronted and puts up a struggle. This is a life and death matter. If he doesn't kill the armed intruder, the armed intruder will kill him. And if he kills the armed intruder will he be judged as a murderer, by God? Yes...Maybe? And if he does nothing to stop the armed intruder, knowing that the armed intruder is about to kill him and the armed intruder does, will he be viewed by God as a person who committed suicide. A coward. Yes...Maybe? Should we follow David. I mean David, as in 'David and Goliath'

-- Felix E.R. Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), November 12, 2003.

Depends what law you follow Felix: Abraham, Moses, or JesusChrist.

When Abraham , the father of believers, heard his nephew was kidnapped he gathered people to fight the attackers. He killed many. He rescued his nephew. Was God angry? No. Melchizedeq, the high priest of God came and blessed Abraham. Abraham gave him 10% of the spoils.

When Moses saw his people made a Golden Calf he ordered the execution of his own people. Did God punish him? No.

For Jesus, turning the other cheek was acommon method to gain people for God. Did he turn the other cheek all the time? No.

At one time Jesus made a whip and threw people out of the Temple area for selling there. His followers even carried swords.

Conclusion: depends on the time and circumstances.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Fear is a terrible decision maker. I know of a man who became motivated by fear and did nothing to help his teacher. His name was Peter who denied Christ three times. I think that our survival mode will kick in and not give time to ponder the morality of our actions. It is after the fact that we begin to second guess. I also have this thing about not having to prove anything to Satan. Why should a murderer be aloud to go and continue killing?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Rod,

even though we wre created in the image of God, we do what pleases us. What pleases us may not please God.

It is called sin.We commit the sin, Rod, not Satan.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.

Yes, we are sinners. There are times when Satan plays his role. Peter makes an attempt to convince Jesus not to go into Jerusalem because of His immiment sentence of death--"stand behind me Satan". And, I do believe in demonic possessions (I certainly don't mean trinkets belonging to demons, but humans with demons in them.)

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

"imminent", sorry.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.

Every sin leads to death; suicide, adultry, idolatry, blasphemy , etc etc.. When a person becomes a Christian, he/she dies in sin to become alive in Jesus Christ (Romans 6). He/she will probably commit various types of sins even still throughout the rest of life, but if this individual continues to confess and repent (this means you try not to sin anymore) the sins will be forgiven him.

What happens if a christian does not confess or repent but instead continues to sin? Then that person is not a christian, instead is still living in sin (Romans 6).

Does one sin constitute a life of sin? No. To live in sin suggests a prolonged period of unrepentance. This doesn't mean that the person lost his/her salvation, but that he/she never had it in the first place.

So people who stop attending church for a while aren't saved? I can't judge that. I know that a person can only be saved once (Hebrews (9:11-28). So to lose salvation would be to lose life. In fact if we know certainly that someone has lost salvation, perhaps it would be best for them to live earthly, have fun while it lasts. No one is worthy by good deeds alone, so it would be worthless to strive for God's favor after losing it. Let us also be honest, who is he/she that has lost salvation that will strive for the pleasure of God?

So, now the sin in question, suicide. Suicide is self-murder. It is a sin, no doubt. So I repeat myself, does one sin constitute a life in sin? Also, what kind of suicide are we talking. Hypothetical situation: Christian Guy named Heath decides to commit suicide by o.d. Heath takes the pills, but doesn't die immediatly. Has he sinned yet? Yes (Matthew 5:28). Can Heath ask for forgiveness before he dies? Yes.

Let's say Heath dies a more immediate death. Like Rod, I believe it is up to God to decide. I however do not believe that one sin will condemn a christian. Afterall, there is no condemnation IN Jesus Christ.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

If a person commits suicide it is most likely that person was Not a Christian, and if he called himself a Christ he probably had a mere intellectual belief (dead faith)like James talked about.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

*Christian

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Also, what is it that Christians have that unbelievers do not? The blood of Jesus. Let's say a christian and a non-christian commit the same sin, stealing. What is it that that seperates them? For if they both must ask for forgiveness to receive it, if both must repent, then we christians have no assurance in Jesus. Now, an unbeliever won't be saved unless he becomes a Christian. But as for we Christians, HOW CAN WE FEEL COMFORT IF WE MUST 'RE-SAVE' OURSELVES BY ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS AGAIN AND AGAIN. Asking for it is a sign of spiritual maturity, NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR FORGIVENESS.

Didn't God command us to forgive one another just as he had forgiven us? Aren't we to forgive others immediately, before they even ask? What sin can a person commit that cannot be cleansed by the Blood? Blasphemy against the holy spirit? IF YOU ARE BLASPHEMING AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT, BY WHOM WILL YOU FEEL THE DESIRE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS????

I belive that Jesus died for every sin, past , present and future. A christian doesn't need to be 'rebaptized' (for if the 1st baptism was for salvation, there wouldn't be need for a 2nd or beyond) for every sin. FOR A TRUE CHRISTIAN IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE A LIFE IN SIN (romans again).

So a christian can sin as much as he wants and still enter the kingdom? A TRUE CHRISTIAN IS ALIVE IN CHRIST AND DEAD IN SIN. We are not perfect, but we should strive to be like Jesus, who was and is perfect. A person who uses Christ's blood for a license to sin is NOT A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

David,

maybe. i think that the number of 'christians' who commit suicide are lower than those who are unbelievers, i don't know. the times that i sin are usually when my spiritual growth has slowed or seems to have lowered. isn't it possible that a christian could, in a moment of weakness, kill himself?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Hi Luke.

You wrote...

"Does one sin constitute a life of sin? No. To live in sin suggests a prolonged period of unrepentance. This doesn't mean that the person lost his/her salvation, but that he/she never had it in the first place. "

I cannot understand the logic in your comment above. Once a person accepts Christ--John 3:16-- he is offered Salvation. All it takes is faith the size of a mustard seed. He now may conform to God's will; he has faith. He can lose faith when he goes against God's will and disobeys. He had Salvation and lost Salvation and can regain Salvation. I cannot believe that a person can fall into the idea of "never" having Salvation as the only other alternative to having or not having Salvation.

How can a man's sins keep him from Salvation if we are taught that men will always sin? He, therefore, must be able to have Salvation and sin simultaneously. So, the idea that he has sin and continues to sin cannot be evidence of "never" having Salvation in the first place. Once a sinner follows the true doctrine and faith, he will have hope for Salvations right along with the sins that he will commit and confess and repent. When he fails to repent, he will more than possibly lose his chance for Salvation.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

"Once saved, always saved" is not logical.

"Once offered, always offered" is logical.

"Always offered, we have free will to accept or reject, always" is reality.

"Sin leads to death, we are not without sin, we may confess, repent, do penance, keep the faith" is our path towards redemption.

rod...

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Rod, hope this helps.

Hebrews 9:22-28 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgivenes. 'It was necessaray, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 'For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in Gods' presence. 'NOR DID HE ENTER HEAVEN TO OFFER HIMSELF AGAIN AND AGAIN, the way the hight priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 'Then Christ would have to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared ONCE AND FOR ALL at the end of ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 'Just as man is destined to die ONCE, and after that face judgement, 'so CHRIST WAS SACRIFICED ONCE TO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Romans 6 (3-7) "Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Were were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will CERTAINLY ALSO BE UNITED WITH HIM IN HIS RESURRECTION. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin- because ANYONE WHO HAS DIED HAS BEEN FREED FROM SIN."

Romans 7:8 "but now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

You see, it was the old law that required a sacrafice after each sin against God. But Jesus sacrificed himself once and for all, so that all sins would be paid for. "Once saved, always saved" may sound illogical, it may sound like a person can jump in the water then go about his way sinning, but that is not what it means. When a person is saved, he no longer has reason to continue TRYING to sin. Satan's attempts gain christian souls is hopeless, we know that Jesus has ALREADY triumphed over satan.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.

Luke,

Why do you believe in Eternal Security and Kevin does not? I thought both of you belong to the same church.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.

Luke,

There is NO such thing as "once saved always saved".

This FALSE doctrine has NO basis in the truth of God's word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.

David,

We can have differing views because, once again, the church of christ doesn't fit into our common views of the term 'denomination.' We do not attend the same congregation, and though we both rely on the bible as our only instruction, we seem to have arrived at different conclusions. It happens, but I'm not going to depart the church over it.

Kevin, I am assuming you didn't read the verses I included in my posts, or that they weren't sufficient enough. So I will show everyone why I believe the bible teaches eternal salvation under the "once saved, always saved" thread.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

I would agree however David, that chances are a person who committs suicide was not a christian.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

But, Kevin teaches that all men can read and interpret the Bible and find the truth which leads to Salvation.

Christians can commit suicide, if you all find a way to redefine "suicide" in your interpretations, that is. The martyrs gave their life by not denying their faith; they could have saved their lives. Were they not Christians? Christ gave His life for us; He could have chosen not to. Was He Him? A certain priest in a prison camp gave his life in order to save the man schedule for execution in one of those NAZI prison camps. Was he not a Christian?

Perhaps you mean that no Protestant would commit suicide and still be called a "Christian"? I suppose that all Protestantism would declare the victim to never have been a Christian and all that catchy phrases that would nail his coffin shut and stamped, "Deliver to Satan".

It amazes me how people love to play God and decide His mind for Him. I know, I know,...."for the Bible tells me so...". You guys are making interpretations, please remember that. There are people who stumble across these posts who have agonized over the loss of a loved one who committed suicide. You all are basically telling them that their loved ones are damned to Hell. You are not God. You do not know what was in their hearts. You do not know what transpired between that soul and God prior to death. You can only think in human terms about God's thoughts? Amazing! How can you be told of Heavenly things when you can't even understand earthly things? Where have you heard that before?

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.

"Christians can commit suicide,"

A suicidal person is confused, depressed and has a missing void in his life. That does not sound like a Christian who Christ gives hope, life and peace.

"Christ gave His life for us; He could have chosen not to. Was He Him?"

Jesus did not commit suicide.

"A certain priest in a prison camp gave his life in order to save the man schedule for execution in one of those NAZI prison camps. Was he not a Christian?"

A priest is not a Christian.

"Perhaps you mean that no Protestant would commit suicide and still be called a "Christian"?"

No, any suicidal person cannot be called a Christian.

"You all are basically telling them that their loved ones are damned to Hell."

Why hide the truth? What good does it do to water down the fact?

"You are not God."

I never claimed to be God, you did.

"You do not know what was in their hearts."

No we don't know what was in their hearts, but we know them "by their fruits". A person in such confusion, unhappyness and depression cannot be a Christian.

"You do not know what transpired between that soul and God prior to death."

If anything would have happen between him and God, then he would not have committed suicide.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.

David-god has spoken:

"If anything would have happen between him and God, then he would not have committed suicide. "

A fine example of what I was trying to point out, David. You know what God knows. Then, nobody on earth knows God for they sin and are not without sin. Bull, barf, and peperoni. Does a man sin when he is lit on fire and wishes death to end his torture? Burn it! I'm glad you are not my god, David. I think that I would pray that God would bring me peace. He might decide to take me. How He takes me? Who knows? (Don't answer that, David.) Nobody knows.

David-"A person in such confusion, unhappyness and depression cannot be a Christian. "

rod-I thought that as humans we feel pain and suffering, which would cause confusion and un-happiness and depression. I suppose Job was not a Christian in your view, David. The man was practically dead suffering with torment, confusion, depression, and (I would say) un- happiness, YET he kept his faith--true he cursed the day he was born. Hey, the early Christians weren't exactly maniacal. They didn't celebrate birthdays, why? They practically cursed the day they were born. Some Christians are so in tune with reality, they don't have time to contemplate theology; they wear the burden of the world on their shoulders. They suffer right along with the confused, unhappy, depressed, and oppressed brothers and sisters by helping and sharing in the Christ-like vocation. Priest are not Christians? Well, maybe not like some Christians. If a priest took a bullet for you, David, would you give him a cross to place on his grave?

Why would you think that priest would have sacrificed his life in place of another?

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.

Job 33:18-30

"With suffering, too, he corrects man on his sick-bed, when his bones keep trembling with palsy;when his whole self is revolted by food, and his appetite spurns dainties; when his flesh rots as you watch it, and his bare bones begin to show; when his soul is drawing near to the pit, and his life to the dwelling of the dead. Then there is an Angel by his side, a Mediator, chosen out of thousands, to remind a man where his duty lies, to take pity on him and to say, 'Release him from descent into the pit, for I have found a ransom for his life'; his flesh recovers the bloom of its youth, he lives again as he did when he was young. He prays to God who has restored him to favour, and comes, in happiness, to see his face. He publishes far and wide the news of his vindication, singing before his fellow men this hymn of praise, 'I sinned and left the path of right, but God has not punished me as my sin deserved. He has spared my soul from going down into the pit, and is allowing my life to continue in the light.' All this God does again and yet again for man, rescuing his soul from the pit, and letting the light of life shine bright on him." The Jerusalem Bible

It sounds as if Job is not in good humors, yet God sends hope. I have memories of people who have died. I suppose the Angel was sent to make it a good death, one with hope for eternal life in Heaven.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.

No rod, A Christian cannot commit suicide. "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" Romans 5:1 / KJV

Use your logic man! Does a person commiting suicide seem to have peace with him?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

rod, You still haven't replied about the suicide topic. Also, I feel the heat coming from Kevin's word processor. I expect a big reply in one of the threads right now.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

I don't know why "foobar" would post his pic unless it is just some sort of intentional distruption. He hasn't answered.

I'm still working on 2 Macabees 15:29. The book has some historical significance, hence the reason for its inclusion. The last verse seem rather honest to reveal that a humble man was given the insight to write the accounts. I suppose that one could interpret it into an uninspired book, hey Luther tried the samething with the Book of James.

rod...

...<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.

Until the Almighty kept his promise and preserved his Word. Gave Luther the understanding that there is no contradiction between James and Paul, and James was not promoting works-based salvation but a living faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

Try this link, http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/p192.htm . Hope families of Christian suicide victims can find some comfort in it. Whats' done is done. But try not to do it. God Bless .

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), December 09, 2003.

Arthur,

A suicidal person is lost, confused, depressed, etc... "we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" Romans 5:1 / KJV Does this suicidal person sound like he had Jesus Christ with him? No. Christ gives us peace, hope and a purpose in life. Not depression and confusion. This suicidal person was never a Christian to begin with.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

A person thinking he will go to heaven if he commits suicide is in very grave danger. I hope people will stop preaching "Christ forgave all sins, that means suicide was include" (making it almost seem right)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

David Ortiz, I was only trying to comfort the families of Christian suicide victims. I said "But try not to do it" see..? DESTROYING THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS AS BLASPHEMY. There ... I've shot myself down, before you could do it. Just like what you did to yourself at the start of this thread.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), December 09, 2003.

While it may seem nice to comfort the families, someone that thinks he's a Christian is reading this, and is going to surprised at judgement day. Possibly sayig,"But they said the sin was forgiven...."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

David Ortiz, Boy ... you really know where to hit. Not me, I hope and pray. I was suicidal myself. But did I go on with it? Of course not. Even when reading such articles as Cutting Edge Ministries. I had to come to terms of losing a loved one and get on with my live of "worthlessness" ... and a blur uncertain future. I had to reason out. I guess everyone has the ability to do that. So don't blame others for "pulling the trigger". You reap what you sow. But dear readers, PLEASE DON'T KILL YOURSELF !! It's just NOT right. But whats' done is done.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), December 09, 2003.

Dear Readers,

Please do not believe that you can go suicidal and still enter into the kingdom of heaven. This is a lie. Any person claiming to be a Christian and goes suicidal was probably never saved to begin with. And if you are not a Christian, still don't do it. There are other ways out, but suicide is not the answer.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

David Ortiz must be thinking he is the "Mind Of God". Who are you to judge other "Christians" (as you put it). Saying who's probably saved and who's not? Didn't I repent and say PLEASE DON'T KILL YOURSELF!? I guess you would say Job too was not a Christian in his depressive state. And readers again, I plead to you. PLEASE DON'T GO ON WITH YOUR PLANS TO COMMIT SUICIDE. It is wrong in the sight of CHRIST the GODHEAD.

-- Felix Edgar Raj Arthur (feraflex@lycos.com), December 09, 2003.

Jesus said "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." If we have to categorise voluntary death as a sin, then Jesus is also a sinner. Plus, the scriptures are clear that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ and that ALL sin is atoned for.

-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 04, 2004.

Interesting discussion, this.

Two things spring to mind.

1) A person who commits suicide often does so because of a chemical imbalance in his or her brain. It's a sickness which is treatable, but sometimes uncurable with modern medicine. Just like cancer.

2) We all seem to be judging whether a person will go to heaven or hell based on their suicide. Remember, as ye judge, so shall ye be judged.

Now, before you jump on the band wagon and say "Ah, but if he had faith, God would heal him," lets apply this to a cancer victim. "Ah, but if he had faith, God would heal him." Does this mean that the person who dies from cancer does not have faith? Obviously not!

Let's get back to the judging part... if you judge, so shall you be judged. Just as you judge a person who takes his own life because sickness causes him not know right from wrong as going to hell, so you shall be judged.

According to scripture, if you judge a person as having no faith because of a mental illness, then you'd better hope that you don't die from an illness.

God bless, Josh

-- Josh Stafford (js_wvr@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

I think that it would vary from person to person.

Certainly a saved Christian can be so depressed that he might commit suicide. It is an illness that I think God would not hold against the person.

Suicide is committed by confused people.

If the person was not a child of God's in the first place., was not a believer--then probably they are not saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 07, 2004.

John,

Please don't misuse Scripture.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

If we know that we are going to be judged a specific way, hopefully, we will also know to avoid specific actions. Perhaps, even with a "chemical imbalance", we will choose not to kill ourselves. But, suicide is not like cancer. We do not choose to have cancer. But, if we knowingly partake of those actions that make cancer a reality, we then must be flirting with suicide. We will be judged accordingly. We flirt with death everyday: smoking, excessive drinking, over eating, lack of excercise, driving, (for some) unprotected sex with multiple partners, hang gliding, drug abuse, high speed motorcycle riding, etc.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 08, 2004.

"Suicide is committed by confused people. "

Well, that isn't exactly an accurate assumption.
Suicide is committed by people who sense that their lives have reached a point of hopeless-ness. They sense that there are no solutions for their lives, except death. They have lost faith in God, people, and nature. Their initial confusion has turned into a single-minded resolve of suicide. Nothing is so pure and exact as the decision to committ their fatal choice. And, we don't know why they choose death over life. We can only imagine that their suffering is too great or unrelenting. If we could bring an end to their suffering, we would of prevented their suicide. But, we just don't know what is going through their minds and hearts. God does know.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 08, 2004.

And then there are those Heaven's Gate types who believe suicide is the door to the next ideal life. Now, those people are confused. Or, are they?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 08, 2004.