What is the Difference?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2003

Answers

Verses that show justification by faith.

Romans 3:26 "To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith, therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (works) of the law."

Acts 13:39 "And by Him (Christ) everyone who believes is justified from all things by which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

Gal. 5:4 "You who would be justified by the law (obedience and works) you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 2:16, 21, 3:10,12)

Rom. 5:1 'Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." This is past tense which gives us the access to God presence.

Rom. 5:9 'We are justified by His blood." But we are also sanctified the same way, Heb. 13:12 "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood." This means we were set apart not by what we do but by what he did.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2003.

Yep, David sanctification and justification are nearly the same thing. It is by God's infinite Grace that we are saved through an active, living obedient faith in Christ, our Redeemer.

I heard a long time ago (by a Protestant I might add), that the verb tenses are actually that "we ARE BEING justified, and we ARE BEING sanctified" denoting a continuing process. I have a Strong's concordance but it gives no light to this, so I can't confirm. (It gives no meaning for words such as "are, were," etc.)

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 08, 2003.

Rom. 5:1 says, "Therefore having been justified by faith".

Justification is a One time event. Sanctification is a process.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 08, 2003.

The Reformers view of justification that we have an "invisible cloak of righteousness" that conceals our sin nature, flies in the face of this scathing rebuke to the pharisees by our Lord.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." (Matt 23:25-28)

It would seem your view of salvation is nothing but a 'clean cup hiding the filth within,' something the Lord despises!

And then we further have a contradiction to the Reformers view of justification here:

And it was given to her [the Church] to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev 19:8) (Not a mysterious cloak but RIGHTEOUS ACTS)

And of course, you still have to reckon with this: "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

The parable of Christ dividing the sheep and the goats by their works certainly does not lend credence to your view at all. Perhaps Christ had not yet learned of the Reformers' position on salvation.

The Reformers developed a new "fad" with their view of justification; forensic rather than intrinsic, based primarily on the book of Romans. The passages they use to bolster their ear-tickling doctrine relate to works of "Old Testament law" not the type of works we are COMMANDED TO DO as Christians.

Christ certainly NEVER gives any credence to this fad doctrine AT ALL! But on the contrary says he will spew the lukewarm out of his mouth. His rebukes of the churches in Revelations are always related to works and deed. "A branch which doesn't produce fruit is cast into the fire" He says in the gospels.

No, David, when we "believe and are baptized," Christ begins a real and actual work in our hearts. We are on our way towards TOTAL sanctification and REAL HOLINESS, not just put-on. There IS an initial work of justification, but then He begins to chip away at our carnal nature. He hammers, buffets, and chisels away at our old nature. He is making us PERFECT for himself . . . if we will let Him! We can stop that sanctification process at any time by rejecting His will in our lives and reverting back to our old ways.

We must always "press on" as St. Paul admonishes and "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 08, 2003.

Sanctification is not the same thing. Justification is when God declares the believer righteous (not because of what he has done, but because of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross), Sanctification is God enabling the true believer to live righteous. How is that the same?

Philippians 2:12,13 - "work out your salvation" is talking about sanctification. It is just non-sense what I have heard from people. Eph 2 says we are saved by the grace of God. Eternal life is a free gift. "...Salvation is of the LORD" Jonah 2:9

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

Just like the thief on the cross, we are saved by grace through faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

but the true living faith that works. Not the counterfeit faith.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

dave ortiz,

Just like the thief on the cross, we are saved by grace through faith.

you are forgetting the good work of the theif, christian charity.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2003.

are you trying to say that the thief was not saved by grace through faith?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

are you trying to say that the thief was not saved by grace through faith?

no, he was saved by his faith, which is justified by his shining example of christian charity. or do you deny that christian charity is a work of faith?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2003.

Hi David and Paul,

We are saved by God's grace, but we MUST, MUST, MUST cooperate with that grace. He does not force us to respond. We must, by an act of our will, say "Yes, Lord." That is an act, a "work". He offers, we accept. That acceptance is a "work". That "yes" response MUST accompany our walk of faith throughout our Christian lives.

Saved, via Strong's = to make whole, to save, deliver or protect. Sanctification via Strong's = to make holy, purify, consecrate, hallow. Justification via Strong's = the act of pronouncing righteous, acquittal.

Now, what if a person comes to Christ but then refuses to allow Christ to sanctify him?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 09, 2003.

moderator, you can delete this thread as you feel like it, just a friendly prodding joke...

Now, what if a person comes to Christ but then refuses to allow Christ to sanctify him?

well, gail, quite simply put: that person becomes protestant.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2003.

A person cannot resist God's grace. God draws you to him, and once your in his hand, nothing can seperate you from him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

A person cannot resist God's grace. God draws you to him, and once your in his hand, nothing can seperate you from him

this is paramount to saying that God draws all people to him, and that ALL people must be saved. OR ELSE, you must mean that the only people who arent saved are those that God chooses to send to hell. BUT since we know that God wants us all to be saved, AND we know that not all people are saved, then logically it follows that your presupositions and hence your arguement is false.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2003.

2 Timothy 2 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

John 6:64-65; 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Only the elect are saved.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

Man cannot choose God, God has to draw us to him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

Romans 3: 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

the elect?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... so what youre saying is that there is a whole class of people who God created SOLELY for the purpose of burning in hell forever. im glad i dont worship your God. my God loves his creations, and wants us all to follow him faithfully and be saved...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2003.

So your denying God's foreknowledge?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

So your denying God's foreknowledge?

not at all, are you denying free will or God's love for all his children? by the way, i dont see where in the bible the word preselection, or saved from the moment of conception appears... better check yourself for following the traditions of men.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 10, 2003.

But you are forgetting, David, that God desires "all men to come to the knowledge of the truth." Your view of "election" surely must be Calvinist . . . ? Is it?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 10, 2003.

I am not a Calvinist Gail, I am a Christian.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

David, As I am sure you are aware, there are two main systems of belief within Christendom as to just who are the "elect" and what causes "election."

Here are two very brief descriptions of both Calvinism and Arminianism:

Arminianism is the belief that God has given man the choice to accept Him or reject Him. Most Christians now accept the view but many Calvinists still consider Arminianism heretical. For the most part Protestants and Pentecostals now accept the tenets and it conforms to the Catholic positions of the Council of Trent. (Excerpt taken from website of Latter Rain Ministries.)

Or, if you were to fall into the Five Point Calvinist camp, you would agree with the following:

That fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity);

That God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)

That Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)

That the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)

That those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)

Perhaps you feel that these two positions are of no particular consequence since you are just a "Christian". However, bloody wars have been fought over these issues, and it has been a tool of division for centuries. Even today, devout Presbyterians will argue the five points of Calvinism arduously.

Gail, that Catholic Gal

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 10, 2003.

Of course I believe Arminianism is a false view, but does that damn anyone for believing in it? No. I guess you could consider me Calvinist, but I am a Christian.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

No, David, of course it does not damn anyone one way or the other. I know many devout God loving Arminians, and I know plenty God loving Calvinists.

Isn't Assembly of God Arminian?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 11, 2003.

I do not believe everything Assemblies of God teaches (e.g. christians being able to be possessed by demons). And yes, AoG is Arminian.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

I accused you of being a Calvinist a long time ago, but you ignored me. Now, you write the following:

Your new forum and new affiliation that you've always had.

Funny, the Catholic Forum has mentioned nothing about a failing server. Is this a ploy to give your group a clean getaway?

You still have not censored Jeanie. You have allowed her to destroy the climate of this forum. I shall post in future when you do the right thing with this forum, David.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.

Your quotation here: "Calvinism"

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.

You can read my comment on that forum: http://pub63.ezboard.com/faskjesusfrm1.showMessage?topicID=9.topic And, the "Original Sin" thread is the exact same post I posted on this forums Original Sin thread. I am a Christian, and that is all. I cannot clean up because it fustrates me (even while having DSL) that it takes threads on this server a really long time to load. That is the message I received, that is the message I posted. It is not my ploy (a false accusation you cannot prove) that I am intending to clean this forum. It is very easy to get rid of anyone I want. I can always make this a private forum. But I won't. And nobody even think of quoting any of my above statements and using them out of context. I will not make this a private forum because I believe that 2 sides should be heard.

contending for the faith
d.o.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

http://pub63.ezboard.com/faskjesusfrm2.showMessage?topicID=11.topic

I didnot write this, this was there already. ezGuide wrote that.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

I mistakenly entered the wrong URL; the correction followed. See the above link. Two sides to a view is one thing; one malevolent word is neither one or the other side of that view. Intelligent people can disagree with each other and continue to "talk" and learn. Injury is done to those at the wrong end of those hateful words. Injury inevitably devours all parties.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.

Sorry rod, it is very hard when Roman Catholics start name calling us, and making personal attacks and false accusations. Some of us even go down to their low levels and attack back.... I don't want to do that anymore. You ignored me when I asked a reasonable request for you to show me where she was being hateful, and all i got from you was silence.

Anyways, the forum seems to be working faster for me..

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

Silence has its virtues. Jeanie should be a virtuous poster.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.

"You ignored me when I asked a reasonable request for you to show me where she was being hateful, and all i got from you was silence. "

Not exactly, David. You didn't get "silence"; you got an army of more Catholics defending their faith against the one-sided poster named "Jeanie". The Catholics have always been lurking in this forum. It wan'st until her attacks were made that things became necessary. People can have civil debates with civilized methods.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.