There is only one way. People should marry only when they are mature enough, not in their teens or early 20s, and as the traditional catholic way, by educating them of the importance of marriage, and by a strict must-have retreat for a week for the bride and he groom, so that they may feel the love of God and have that love for each other, and they should be educated about God's teaching and other important catholic teaching, so that their souls will be saved.

This is, if anyone wants to marry in the catholic church. I know many places where this rule is strictly followed, for the sake of those who marry, and divorce is an extremely rare thing there because the people understand that we are not supposed to seperate what God has joined together. So much for the astonishment of many, almost all the "arranged" marriages are successfuly done as much as love marriages, and by educating them of the importance of marrage, they live happy lives. I don't know if this is possible here, but if people, young or mature, wants to marry in the catholic church, they MUST be taught the importance of what they are doing instead of following the celebrities and others' habits of changing husbands and wives like changing clothes. I do not know what to do about people having sex before marriage, for many consider it to be a "normal" thing, but that is the start of all, where the root of divorce is planted. The only thing to do is, do not let adulterers who think they don't "care", marry in the catholic church. We are not here to please people by doing what they want, but to help them and to please God.

I am sure that by doing this, which is done in many countries and I believe that the catholic teachings urge us to do this, the practice of divorce and remarriage can be ended, at least to an extent.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 09, 2003

Answers

Once again this will likely be "moderated" by Paul, our resident Inquisitor, but here goes.

You are naive Abe but good hearted.

I presume you speak in a catholic text.

The problem is that divorce is not punished and is acceptable to all, including the Catholic Church which does nothing except refuse to marry one who is divorced but not annulled. The Church will hear your arguments to nullify your marriage in a heartbeat but will do nothing to protect or heal it.

The Church is a major part of the problem but what it comes down to in the end is personal responsibility, your word. Now, your word means nothing, literally, and the government says it is ok, society saus it is ok and the Churches(not just the Catholic Church) say it is ok.

Your hope is a waste of time. The decay in society will continue until God intervenes to save the remnant that will be hanging on till He does what He does.

Western society is doomed to continue its slow death in the post christian era.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), August 09, 2003.

Paul says, get married if you are going to burst in the flames of your passion... mature... he does not mention it, the thing is we are talking about the eternal life of souls, not only "healthy minded people". Age is not an issue since Mary was 16 when she had Jesus in her womb. About the traditional catholic teachings, due to the great dissemination of the "culture of the sin" when being sinful is popular and being popular is the goal... there is little or nothing catholic schools in the country can do for the kids... and lets avoid the "catholic university" topic! the retreat is nice, but lets face it, most of the catholic marriage are pursued for the bride simply for the dress, and off course, "what my family says"...

If you know many places where the no divorce rule is strictly followed, please let me know where!!!.

Adultery is being married and having sex outside the marriage... I do not know the word in english, fornicary maybe? "do not let fornicaries who think they don't "care", marry in the catholic church" Technically they can't if they don't confess that sin and be repented of it... according to the sacrament of confession, even when you dont have a perfect contriction, the sacrament is valid... so, the can get married if they confess that sin.

What is done in many countries? that divorce disease is spread out, im from Colombia, south america, very conservative society... divorce is very common here...

The solution? unfortunately is having again catholic schools and colleges, real parishes where the parishioners act as brothers and take care of each other... what we need is the involvement of the catholics in being catholic, catholic media, catholic employers, a catholic society... is not the Church's fault as someone said before, because when you use that C you are including Christ... is our fault, period. As I heard from a priest once, "in this pagan society, if you are comfortable and fit well, you are a pagan yourself"

-- Miguel Trujillo (miguelt_us@hotmail.com), August 09, 2003.

Some of these people are kidding themselves honestly. People who go through a divorce go through so much pain and heart ache, and all the Catholic Church does is throw it back in their face. Instead of being supportive they are just so negative, like they've comitted a crime or something. I'm sure all these people who have been married really thought that it would lead in divorce! And then they ask ridiculous questions when you apply for annullment like 'was it serious!' No, of course not, we just felt like getting married! Come on people, wake up to the real world. This stuff happens, we need to support those who have to go through this. For example, a woman being abused by her husband gets a divorce, and yet, the Catholic Church still writes her off cause she is divorced. Heartless people! Absolutely heartless. You can't tell me God would want it to be like this. This is all from your minds, not God! God wouldn't want this.

-- Anon (anon@none.com), August 11, 2003.

It is indeed God's words that it is due to the hardness of our hearts, it is allowed. Woman being abused by a husband, husband cheated by the wife, etc etc. It is easy to make up reasons. What about a son abused by his parents? There are many examples. Something are not meant to be seperated. It is not my words, but God's. If you want to preach this heresy and plant poison in others' mind, you are standing agains God's words. Thus "real world" that you think you know is created by the same person who created you and me, and it is HIS same words that I said before. If you don't want to stand by those words, you are not a christian. No one can claim themselves to be a christian and preach against his words and go agasint them claiming that it is impossible to do in "the real world".

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 11, 2003.

Anon,

You are lost -your post and premise, absurd...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 11, 2003.

I still think it is heartless to be so critical of these people that have experienced these unfortunate situations. I'm sure if you were in the same position you'd be wanting some support from others.

-- Anon (anon@none.com), August 11, 2003.

Indeed they need our love and support. It is best to prevent something from happening instead of waiting it to happen. After these incidents, most people don't realize what they have done, and just need someone to tell them that they are justified. By telling them and others about the seriousness of this issue, we could at least hope to prevent this more instead of proclaiming our support of this pratice. The persons need our support as long as they were justified, which in most cases is untrue. What is important is, we have to make people understand about this evil practice.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 15, 2003.

"I still think it is heartless to be so critical of these people that have experienced these unfortunate situations. I'm sure if you were in the same position you'd be wanting some support from others."

Anon,

-you still think whatever you choose to think -the truth remains the same.

Only some of the people "experience these unfortunate situations" AND the ones that do for the most part do because of the 'lost' spouse that causes the unfortunate situation.... The wayward spouses have much support -much support...

In the Church there is no such thing as no-fault divorce or no-fault sin. The position of the Church is clear regarding divorce and those who divorce are why thier is divorce --ALL suffer -both divorcer and divorcee; however, the one committing the sin is the sinner AND as such requires clear guidance and truth, critical as it may appear...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 16, 2003.

You are fighting a losing battle, Daniel. I think for myself I can no longer swim against the tide of permissive divorce and annulment. I will counsel people to say whatever it takes to get what they want, even to lie. It seems to me it does not matter anymore.

Yes it is breaking my heart because I know that all I have lived through as a witness to a sacrament for my children has been for nothing. They have all accepted their motherīs lover as their real father and they simply want to have a relationship with me because it is less painful for them then to simply break it off. But they do not love me as their father any longer. I am an intimate stranger.

If God is to save this soul he will have to do it for someone who has or is in the process of giving up the fight to do what is right and who is going to try to embrace whatever it is that make my life more immediately satisfying. The loneliness, pain, isolation and scorn for fighting for truth just is not worth it.

When the children you gave life to and suffered for years for no longer care to treat you as their father it becomes clear you have wasted your life in the pursuit of a truth that the world has long abandoned.

Good luck to you Daniel.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), August 16, 2003.

To lead others into sin because you think you were a victim of sin? Where is Christian compassion is that? Whom do you seek to hurt? The Church? Or other individuals who, like yourself, have marital problems which need to be addressed?

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 16, 2003.

Karl,

I completely understand where you are and all the emotions involved.

It is excruciatingly painful -the worst pain ever...

FAITH -that is all I have to console me -those that can not understand sometimes discount, ridicule or dismiss...

CLARITY -having lost all, choosing daily -every moment to bear this faithfully seems to provide greater ability to discern truth and distinguish what is God's path vs. all else -Yes, sometimes I slip; however, even in the face of so much confusion and relative degradation among people in our Church I continue and I will continue with the clarity I have gained...

--significant words from Jesus that have provided me much understanding regarding the 'why' regarding conflict in general and specific to my situation:

Luke 12:51: "Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation."

In essence, divorce and all it entails is separating people from truth and eternal life -IT and its promise is a lie not of God that many buy into while many say nothing or even condone...

To be on the side of truth is to be separate but with God -the separation is the conflict between good and evil.

Karl, I know you know this and experience this AND realize that 'giving up' is but another delusion/temptation that you have and will continue to overcome with God's help.

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), August 16, 2003.

It is indeed so sad that many people don't realize the pain divorce would cause. They are so eager to make the vow during marriage, before God, saying that "till death part us". It is so dramatic. Many people think marriage is just a legal status to live together, or to have "fun", even some catholics.

If people come forward asking for divorce by the church rules, let them say a prayer like this - "God, please do not forgive me for what I am doing, because I did not forgive", instead of praying the opposite every day as if trying to "trick" God. It is so easy for them to find out reasons to justify themselves against God's word. Only by returning to God and his words will this evil practice end. Saying that the church allows divorce is pure blasphemy. The church allows it, because of the same reason Moses allowed it in the old testament period, and the reason was clearly stated by God himself, and it can be seen in the bible.

Why should the church allow people like this to marry in the first place? They need counseling, retreat and proper education. If they disagree let them marry by some other means because clearly their defenition of marriage is something else. This is an evil practice which must end. Then again, people would never stop justifying themselves even against the word of God. Satan is the most imtelligent being created ever, indeed. When people willingly forget the word of God, or are too "modern" to accept them or are ashamed of his words, they become agents of the devil right then. It is so sad that no one sees this.

Karl, I know it is painful. I have nothing to offer you to be peaceful, but your sadness will turn into joy one day. You will have to wait just some more. Your creator knows everything because he is the one who created you and me and everyone else. Those who do this evil practice do not know how much pain they are causing, not only to their spouse but to their children and others as well. The seriousness of this act is extreme, and I do not see any hope for these people, except if they honestly think about their mistake and repent.

Nothing is impossible for God. You just wait and see how much joy he will pour on you and those who feel painful and lonely. Everytime I came close to thinking that God has abandoned me, or that he is not seeing my pain, he has strengthend me in my faith more, by proving that he cares, a lot. Make no mistake about it. His words are for beyond time. His commands are forver, and those who violate them and worse, try to justify themselves might not even have the chance to repent. Same goes for his promises. He meant it when he said that not even one hair from our head falls off without his knowledge.

Woe to them who ridicules the word of God and his commands and teachings. They think they are intelligent and "modern" but they may not even have the chance to cry. For those who stand by his words, even in the midst of ridicule and pain will be rewarded well beyond what we could imagine. These are his words and he never breaks promises.

I don't feel pity for catholics who try to justify their divorce and pray everyday "to forgive them as they forgive". The same goes for people who use abortion to kill the most innocent human life. If abortion is a very evil process where they butcher the human life and justify themselves, divorce is no different where they cause a lifetime of pain even for their offsprings. They know the seriousness of the act. Whether it sounds cruel or not, it is natural and just that they pay dearly. They'd better make use of the time they have in this world to repent. Many will not have that chance.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), August 16, 2003.

Beautifully states Abraham.

Remember Karl that God sees and knows all. And as Christ stated here on earth "Blessed are those who are persecuted in Christ's name." You need nothing more in this life but to be faithful to Christ. Even though your wife and children don't understand, God does. He sees and appreciates your fidelity and will reward you in heaven. Do not let the devil enter your heart through anger at your circumstances. Instead be joyful that you have been chosen to suffer these circumstances and instead be a beacon to others of the hope and fidelity God has given you.

And remember to pray, every day, for your spouse and your family. But if she causes you to sin through anger, remove yourself until you have the peace of heart and mind to show God's grace in you. I'll keep you, and all those troubled by the "divorce mentality", in my prayers.

God bless you. -Pat

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), September 05, 2003.