Kevin, would you please tell me which denominations are in truth, or promote truth.

Is the denomination of Churches of Christ which you belong too the only church in truth? If yes, why? If no, what others?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 21, 2003

Answers

David,

First off, the church of Christ is NOT a denomination.

Many people think the "church of Christ" is merely "another denomination." However, the expression, as used in the New Testament, simply refers to a church which is "of" [or belonging to] Christ. Consider the following for some differences between a church [congregation] which is "of Christ" and a church [denomination] which is "of man".

It is "of man" when:

1. It was planned by man. 2. It has human heads. 3. It has a human legislative body. 4. It has a human organization. 5. It wears unauthorized names. 6. It uses innovations in worship. 7. It practices a social gospel. 8. It has human entrance requirements.

It is "of Christ" when:

1. It was planned by God. 2. Christ is its only head. 3. It accepts only Christ's authority. 4. Its organization is scriptural. 5. It only wears bible names. 6. It engages in pure worship. 7. It follows a divine mission. 8. God set entrance requirements.

Yes, the church of Christ is the only one promoting the truth.

Check out the link below:

Why the Churches of Christ

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 22, 2003.

Kevin,

Then the church of christ (the denomination) is the "one true infallible church". I don't buy it. On another thread you claim that the Church of Christ (the true church) is made up of the body of believers yet you claim that only the church of christ (denomination) is the only one in truth.

So then the Lord's Church (true church) is only made up of church of christ members (denomination)?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 22, 2003.

David,

Yes, the church of Christ (NOT a denomination) is the ONLY church that PROCLAIMS the truth. If you have NOT obeyed the gospel, you are NOT a Christian it is that simple. You can claim "I don't buy it" all you want, but Jesus words are easy to understand if you are really searching for the truth.

The truth most certainly CANNOT be found in the Assemblies of God denomination for this was founded by men, just as all of the other denominations which came from the Catholic Church which is the mother of all of them.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 25, 2003.

So the denomination of church of christ is "the one true church founded by Jesus himself"? I've heard that before.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.

Hi

Are we thinking that the Church of Christ is the one described in this url?

http://www.cogic.org/dctrn.htm Is the following statement (doctrine) true?

"We believe that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an experience subsequent to conversion and sanctification and that tongue-speaking is the consequence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the manifestations of the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23; Acts 10:46, 19:1-6). We believe that we are not baptized with the Holy Ghost in order to be saved (Acts 19:1-6; John 3:5). When one receives a baptismal Holy Ghost experience, we believe one will speak with a tongue unknown to oneself according to the sovereign will of Christ. To be filled with the Spirit means to be Spirit controlled as expressed by Paul in Ephesians 5:18-19. Since the charismatic demonstrations were necessary to help the early church to be successful in implementing the command of Christ, we therefore, believe that a Holy Ghost experience is mandatory for all men today. "

Kevin? Is this what you believe to be the "true" church?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 26, 2003.

My link didn't work; I'll try again.

http://www.cogic.org/dctrn.htm

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 26, 2003.

rod,

NO and that is NOT even a church of Christ website. LOL!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

Ah! It's all those "Church of..." names that throw me. It is much like the confusion with Catholic Churches, yes?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

rod,

I am not confused with any of the Catholic Churches, for they are all the same and not one of them teaches the truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

I could say the same thing in...

I'm not confused, all Pentecostal churches are the same...

(but I know better.) rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

rod,

None of those denominations (which include the Pentecostals) teach the truth either.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

I did not mean to infer that they were "all the same" (Catholic and Pentecostal Churches), but that they ALL taught false doctrine.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 30, 2003.

"all Pentecostal churches are the same"

They are not all the same. United Pentecostal Church teaches water baptism is necessary for salvation, and the Oneness of God. There are more thing but Assemblies of God does not teach this.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003.

My understanding is that a point was well made with that comment--"all pentecostals churches are the same". Obviously, that was meant as a doppleganger of Kevin's earlier spouts.

RTF3

-- Richard (reechfrid@yahoo.com), August 30, 2003.

IS THE CHURCH OF CHRIST A DENOMINATION?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003.

Is the Church of Christ a Denomination 1

Is the Church of Christ a Denomination 2

Why is the Church of Christ not a Denomination?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 03, 2003.

To claim your church is the only true believing church, and is thus the only way to heaven, is blasphemous. No Church is the way to salvation, but Christ.

Timothy 2:5

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

This means that there is no "middle management". It goes from You and me to Christ and his Father. any Church claiming to give salvation is decieving the hearts of those who seek the truth.

Even more proof is that a man who did not follow a church was saved, the man on the cross with Christ.

Decieve no one any more, then! For

2 Peters 2:1

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovreign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themsleves."

Therefore teach the Word of God, and not the word of the church! For the man who deserves our worship is not a church of man, but a Savior for Man of God, his son Christ Jesus, to whom all glory and power is due.

-- Ryan Day (recklessdragon@ameritech.net), October 02, 2003.

Hi Ryan.

Can you please tell us the role of the church?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 02, 2003.

Ryan,

Yes, our Salvation Is "In Christ", let me illustrate:

Salvation is "In Christ." (2 Tim. 2:10); Redemption is "In Christ." (Eph. 1:7); Forgiveness is "In Christ." (Acts 2:38); Sonship is "In Christ." (Gal. 3:26-27); Reconciliation is "In Christ." (Eph. 2:13-16); Translation is "In Christ." (Col. 1:13-14); One is a new creature "In Christ." (2 Cor. 5:17); Sealed with Spirit "In Christ." (Eph. 1:13); An heir of God "In Christ." (Rom. 8:17); Seed of Abraham "In Christ." (Gal. 3:27,29); Blessed in death "In Christ" (Rev. 14:13); Complete "In Christ" (Col. 2:8-10); All Spiritual blessings are "In Christ." (Eph. 1:3).

Being "In Christ" IS the Same As Being "In His Church". The sphere of being "in Christ" and of being "in His church" are identical spheres or relationships. The same acts of obedience that places one "In Christ" at the same time makes one a part of that which is known as His church, kingdom, family, household, body, or bride. To say that one is saved by one means and becomes a member of the church by yet another, is to show ones lack of understanding. Since Christ's blood is the purchase price for His church (Acts 20:28; Ephesians 5:15). And since the church is the "spiritual bride of Christ" (Romans 7:4; Ephesians 5:22-33), when one has been cleansed by His blood, one automatically becomes a part of His bride.

To say one is save and then must "join" the church would be akin to saying "I am going to be married and then seek a bride." The figures of speech which show when one's state or relationship are changed from "Out of Christ and out of His body" to "In Christ" and "In His body," are many. To Nicodemus Jesus said that he must be "born again" to see the kingdom (John 3:3). This new birth is of two elements, the water and the Spirit (John 3:5). This is paralleled by (Titus 3:5) which shows that God saves us "through the washing of regeneration..." When one is "born again" therefore, one is automatically a child in the family of God. The same acts which place one "In Christ" are what makes one a member of his church. The church and the kingdom are one and the same spiritual relationship (Matthew 16:18-19; Colossians 1:13-14; Mark 9:1; Acts 2:22-41, 47).

If one is NOT in His church, then they are NOT saved.

You wrote, "Even more proof is that a man who did not follow a church was saved, the man on the cross with Christ."

This "man on the cross with Christ" was saved under the Old Testament law and we are under New Testament law, so your statement above is not valid.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 02, 2003.

The Churches Of Christ salute you,have you read this in your bible? You must heed all in the bible and heed all of Gods commandments,leaving none to be considered any less unimportant than another for these are the laws of the Almighty ,this i know the chuch of Christ does for I go and belong to the church of Christ.Why we say only members of the church of Christ is the only true church is because we are the only one to obey all of Gods commandments and laws which you must do to be saved,therefore if we are the only ones obeying ALL of the bible to the letter then we of course are the select few.

-- Bryon Potter (bpotter92@yahoo.com), October 06, 2003.

The Church of Christ (denomination of) is a dangerous cult whose members were decieved by Satan. The True church of Christ is not a organiztion made up of Campbellites or Romanists or any other denomination.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 06, 2003.

David,

You wrote, "The Church of Christ (denomination of) is a dangerous cult whose members were decieved by Satan."

I challenge you to PROVE THIS that the church of Christ is a "dangerous cult whose members were deceived by Satan"!!! You are very good at making accusations, how about backing them up for a change???

You wrote, "The True church of Christ is not a organiztion made up of Campbellites or Romanists or any other denomination."

The church of Christ does NOT follow "Campbell" as you falsely assert, once again here is another accusation that I CHALLENGE you to prove!!!

The church of Christ is composed of members who have been saved by the "blood of Christ". The blood of Christ can ONLY be reached by being "baptized INTO His (Christ's) death" (Rom. 6:3). Jesus shed His blood in His death, and we can ONLY contact His blood when we are BAPTIZED INTO His death and this is EXACTLY what Romans 6:3 states.

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:9) and OBEDIENCE to the gospel is NOT an option. (2 Thess. 1:7-9). The gospel is God's power to salvation. (Rom. 1:16). Don't be fooled by a false gospel that states that one can be saved by "faith only" for this plan of salvation is NOT even hinted at in the Word of God.

As a matter of FACT, the only time the words "faith" and "only" are used together are used to DEFEAT this false doctrine for the Apostle James stated in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and NOT by faith only." (Emphasis mine kw).

The Word of God is CLEAR on this matter and it is easy to see that David and those who claim that one is saved by "faith only" are teaching FALSE DOCTRINE.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 06, 2003.

The point James was making (James 2:14-26) wasn't to say that Faith is nothing, nor was it to say that our deeds earn us salvation. One without the other would be worthless. How can one claim to have faith if he doesn't show it? True faith WILL show itself, and not by lengthy babbling. Anyone can claim to have faith. Faith in Jesus is a MUST! But if you do not obey his commands, if you are "saved" only to become a couch potato, did you really have faith? I think not. Nobody is perfect, all will fall short. But it is those who get up and keep trying that will have riches in heaven. Is it by our works then that we are saved? No. No man can work his way into heaven. Any denomination that claims either faith alone or works alone saves your soul is guilty of false teaching. Faith and Works: 2 Hands to use

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 06, 2003.

"Any denomination that claims either faith alone or works alone saves your soul is guilty of false teaching."

AMEN!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 06, 2003.

"The 'churches' Of Christ salute you."

Sounds like a very ominous greeting.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.

It is interesting to see the plain definition of 'denomination' ignored by congregations who HAVE been divided. Part (denomination) to whole (church body). Insert any denomination into this "equation" and you can see how each is only a small part of a larger body.

However, the Church of Christ doesn't fit. "The Church of Christ is a part of the church of christ." See how silly that sounds? That's because the church of christ is simply what it is, the church of christ. Each congregation operates independantly, with the BIBLE AS THE ONLY GOVERNING AUTHORITY. There is no room in the body of Christ for North American liberalism or political power.

There is only one church in Christ. To claim the Church of christ as a denomination would be to condemn every person who attends a baptist, lutheran, catholic, etc. congregation. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ...

Also, contrary to some statements, the church of christ does not have a creed. Each congregation has a mission statement that echoes The Great Commission that Jesus gave his disciples, and each one is unique. This is not the characteristic of a denomination, but instead of a good congregation.

I have to painfully admit that in an effort to end divisions in the body, members of the church of christ have actually pushed others away into denominations or into other "non-denominational" congregations. This ultimately proved to start long-term rivalries that (as you can see) still last today. Many people are mistrusting. Unity is very important, and there was a time when members were divisive in their efforts to be united. That being said, there are times when a person has to put a foot down, not allow tradition to become law.

I find it interesting that no denomination has biblical ammo against the church of christ (why should they?). And yet they call us the cult...

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

HI Luke.

I think this "creed" might belong to your church:

International church of Christ.(same as the "creed" link above.)

More creeds.

Previous discussion in this forum about "Creeds".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 17, 2003.

The church in that link, the International Church of Christ aka The Boston Movement has more traits of a cultic group. Yes they do share the 'church of christ' name, but so does The Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is also a cultic group. This is confusing, but the church of christ has no h.q. except in heaven.

Also, Independant Church of Christ sounds good but what are they independant of? The true church of christ is united only by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, so there is nothing that needs to be claimed "independant." The terms United or International should signal a warning flag.

Side note: If you want a denomination test for churches, think about what effects would result if an openly gay man was to be placed in a leadership role(pastor, shephard, bishop, etc..) over a church body.

http://www.spiritwatch.org/icoc.htm

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 18, 2003.

The key word being "openly" as opposed to "secretly"...

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 18, 2003.

"There is only one church in Christ. To claim the Church of christ as a denomination would be to condemn every person who attends a baptist, lutheran, catholic, etc. congregation. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ..."

Yeah right. A newly sprouted religion claims singularity ~ "not a denomination" ~ "not protestant" ~ yet sola scriptura ~ yet protesting against the Ancient Most Holy Catholic Church. The Truth is ~ The True Church of Christ did not just sprout recently but was ordained 2000 years ago by Jesus Christ Himself ~ The Most Holy Catholic Church.

"I have to painfully admit that in an effort to end divisions in the body, members of the church of christ have actually pushed others away into denominations or into other "non-denominational" congregations. This ultimately proved to start long-term rivalries that (as you can see) still last today. Many people are mistrusting. Unity is very important, and there was a time when members were divisive in their efforts to be united. That being said, there are times when a person has to put a foot down, not allow tradition to become law."

There is no unity in newly sprouted radical denominations ~ only fanatical esoteric doctrines ~ therefore division, separation, and conflict.

"I find it interesting that no denomination has biblical ammo against the church of christ (why should they?). And yet they call us the cult..."

A baby protestant in this forum called your new protestantism worse : Satanic. Your so-called "biblical ammo" is worthless because it boomerangs back to you due to gross misinterpretions and blatant fabrications.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.

Rod,

What I am implying is that human organization is easily divided, yet the body of Christ will never be destroyed. The church would suffer (1Cor.12:26 "if one part suffers, every part suffers with it...") but the body doesn't fall apart.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 20, 2003.

In reading all the comments to the above mentioned question in regards to Church of Christ promoting the truth, being the truth, etc. I have several questions from outside this church . One in regards to be baptized, which is scriptural, and promoted as seen by Jesus Himself, by John the Baptist. But He was also a believer and (the Lord Himself) He was demonstrating to all on the shore, what needs to be done to express to the world that He was a new man, that all would become new this being representationonly of what had taken place in their hearts. Also. Let us say I was bedridden and deathly ill, and a preacher came in and proclaimed God's Word and I asked forgiveness and asked Him into my heart. Yet I was unable to be "baptized". Does, this then mean I am condemned to Hell forever more, because not baptized?Or would I then fall back to the Old testament ways? Which the reason Jesus came to earth was to do away with the Old testament that we may come to Him freely, is it not? Thanks

-- Jennifer Smith (jeweelee@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.

Christ came to restore the relationship that was lost in the fall.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

Jennifer,

People who refuse to accept God's WORD, are always throwing this type of ridiculous hypothetical situation at us, "What if a person decides to be Baptized into Jesus but are then immediately killed by a speeding camel?" Or they die on their deathbed without having a chance to be baptized, etc..., etc...

Well can I ask you, What about the person who would have 'Prayed Jesus into their heart' but were tragically struck down and killed by that same speeding camel? Or on their deathbed? What about them?

Only the Scriptures prove doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16). The question has always been "What must I do..." The response has ALWAYS biblically been baptism.

Acts 4:12 gives us the only name under heaven by which we may be saved.

Don't be fooled by a hypothetical doctrine, which CANNOT and DOES NOT accept the TRUTH of God's WORD.

If you DO NOT believe God's WORD, Mark 16:16, (or any of the other passages that say that baptism is a requirement for salvation) but instead you believe this LIE (that one can be saved without baptism), as you defile the WORD of God and change it to say; " Whoever believes is saved, without being baptized because God is so merciful that He will allow them into paradise even though they didn't have a chance to obey because they were killed prior to being baptized.

But the God of the universe who says that His Word is PERFECT declares that; "Whoever believes AND IS BAPTIZED, WILL BE SAVED..."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 10, 2003.

Kevin,

You do not believe that baptism is man's work right? Rather, I think you believe it's God's work? I do not see how it could be "God's work" if man plays a part in it. And worst off, I think you believe that only the members of the denomination Churches of Christ can only preform a baptism. So according to your theology, if your Churches of Christ (denomination of) minister doesn't want to baptize me, I am damned. And if I was baptized in Assemblies of God would that still damn me? (I get these ideas from a article you posted called "Are Denominational Baptisms valid", please correct me if I'm wrong)

Anyways, tell me... If baptism is really necessary for salvation, does that mean that the house of Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit, glorified God, and spoke in tongues, but they were not saved because they were not dipped in water? Truth is, they were saved before baptism, and baptism isn't necessary for salvation. It is only necessary for obedience. Faith is the one condition that God has set, and always has been. You show me one verse in the bible that says "He that isn't dipped in water will be damned".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

Acts 10 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

David,

You wrote, "You do not believe that baptism is man's work right?"

This is a TRUE statement.

You wrote, "Rather, I think you believe it's God's work? I do not see how it could be "God's work" if man plays a part in it."

It does NOT matter that you do not see how it could be "God's work" if man plays a part in it now does it David??? Please show me from the word of God HOW baptism is MAN's work???

Did Baptism come from MEN or from GOD??? Please answer this question!!!

If it came from MEN, then you might have something to say about it, but if it came fro GOD (and it did), then please EXPLAIN how this is MAN's work???

You wrote, "And worst off, I think you believe that only the members of the denomination Churches of Christ can only preform a baptism."

David, I have told you before that the church of Christ is NOT a denomination and I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE OTHERWISE. I have made this challenge to you NUMEROUS times and you have YET to PROVE that this is the case. Since you have NOT proven this to be the case I would ask that you CEASE calling the church of Christ a denomination for such is NOT the case. You thought WRONG when you said "I think you believe that only the members of the *** (word deleted to to insufficient proof) Churches of Christ can only preform a baptism." I have NEVER said that ONLY MEMBERS can perform a baptism. ANYONE who desires to be OBEDIENT to the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ can have ANY PERSON baptize them. There is NO stipulation that ONLY a member of the church of Christ can baptize someone and you have been led to believe an error.

You wrote, "So according to your theology, if your Churches of Christ (denomination of) minister doesn't want to baptize me, I am damned. And if I was baptized in Assemblies of God would that still damn me? (I get these ideas from a article you posted called "Are Denominational Baptisms valid", please correct me if I'm wrong)"

Denominational Baptisms are NOT valid, NOT because a member of the church of Christ didn't baptize them, but because they were taught the WRONG information about baptism.

You wrote, "Anyways, tell me... If baptism is really necessary for salvation, does that mean that the house of Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit, glorified God, and spoke in tongues, but they were not saved because they were not dipped in water? Truth is, they were saved before baptism, and baptism isn't necessary for salvation."

David, we have been over Cornelius and his household already and you have YET to answer the threads in which I have posed this answer to you now have you???

Here it is for you again since you missed it the first time.

The reception of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism by Cornelius had absolutely NOTHING to do with his salvation! Holy Spirit baptism was God's way of proving to the Jews that Gentiles were likewise fit candidates for salvation. The Gentile reception of the Holy Spirit not only PRECEDED their baptism, it PRECEDED their belief! For in Acts 11:15, Luke used very precise language when he stated, "And as I began to speak?" Peter was just beginning to preach the words which would tell them what to do to be saved but was interrupted by God baptizing the Gentiles in the Spirit. So at that point they had NOT YET heard the "words by which you and all your household will be saved" (11:14). They had NOT YET believed since faith comes by hearing God's words (Rom. 10:17). God had to put His stamp of approval upon Gentiles to demonstrate to the Jewish church that Gentiles had a right to hear the gospel as well. Only AFTER He did this could the Gentiles then proceed to hear the gospel and become Christians by responding with faith and baptism.

Notice that this text actually VERIFIES the necessity of water baptism to the conversion event. After having divinely demonstrated Gentile eligibility for salvation, Peter asks a question that has the import of asking whether anyone can offer any reason why Gentiles should not be allowed to become Christians: "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Acts 10:47). If your doctrine of "faith only" is correct, Peter SHOULD HAVE ASKED, "Can anyone give any reason why these Gentiles should not be allowed to believe (or accept Jesus as their savior)?" INSTEAD, Peter was pinpointing the EXACT moment a person becomes a Christian! He was saying that God's direct authentication of Gentile eligibility through Holy Spirit baptism was sufficient PROOF that Gentiles should be allowed to become converts. So - "bring on the water" - a COMMAND (Acts 10:48)!

If the Gentiles were ALREADY Christians, WHY would Peter bring to a head the Gentile eligibility issue in terms of water baptism? Everything prior to that point was driving toward the conclusion that Gentiles could become Christians and enter the church just as Jews could. That fact had to be PROVEN before the Gentiles actually were permitted to become Christians.

Here is PROOF that the reception of the Holy Spirit by Cornelius and his household had NOTHING to do with their salvation. In Acts 8:14-16 there were some in Samaria who had OBEYED THE GOSPEL and were baptized INTO Christ and had NOT received the Holy Spirit, "Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

It took the LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLES HANDS to give them the Holy Spirit and this is EXACTLY what Acts 8:17 teaches, "Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

So, receiving the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with one being saved.

You wrote, "It is only necessary for obedience. Faith is the one condition that God has set, and always has been."

No, this is NOT true that "faith is the one condition that God has set, and always has been." An OBEDIENT faith is the condition that God has set NOT your "faith only" theology as you have been erroneously led to believe. If "faith" is the ONLY condition of salvation, then the demons would be saved, and even Satan would be saved but you KNOW that is NOT the truth!!! Faith WITHOUT works is a DEAD faith it is that SIMPLE.

You wrote, "You show me one verse in the bible that says "He that isn't dipped in water will be damned"."

Obedience to the gospel REQUIRES on to be BAPTIZED IN WATER FOR THE REMISSION OF THEIR SINS. (Acts 2:38).

Those who do NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL WILL BE DAMNED for this is EXACTLY what 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 teaches and I CHALLENGE YOU TO PROVE OTHERWISE.

I have REPEATEDLY asked you to PROVE your FAITH ONLY doctrine and this you have NOT done for this FALSE DOCTRINE is NOT taught in the word of God. You, just like Martin Luther who went to the extreme of believing that "faith only" saves CUT out verses which say that baptism saves (such as Mark 16:16) and use this to attempt to prove that it is "faith only" that saves and NOTHING could be FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

Belief + Baptism SAVE and that is EXACTLY what Mark 16:16 teaches. If one does NOT have faith, they will NOT be baptized and that is EXACTLY what is meant by those who do not believe will be condemned in the last part of this verse. There was NO need (and I have told you this before) for God to SPECIFICALLY state that for one to be condemned in this verse if they were NOT baptized because if one does NOT have FAITH, they will NOT seek to be baptized.

It is IN BAPTISM that God choose to place the "blood of Jesus" and I have asked you on other threads and I will ask you again to PROVE that the "blood of Jesus" is applied to one's soul PRIOR to them being baptized!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 11, 2003.

David said, "I do not see how it could be 'God's work' if man plays a part in it."

David, wasn't Jesus birthed by a human? Didn't Jesus need the family line of Joseph in order to fulfill prophecy?

David, do men play a part in salvation? Yes. For it was for men that Jesus was sent. But salvation is god's work isn't it?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.come), February 13, 2004.

David said, "Anyways, tell me... If baptism is really necessary for salvation, does that mean that the house of Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit, glorified God, and spoke in tongues, but they were not saved because they were not dipped in water? Truth is, they were saved before baptism, and baptism isn't necessary for salvation. It is only necessary for obedience."

1Cor. 14:22 "Tongues, then, are a sign, nor for believers, but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers."

The sign of the Spirit that the Gentiles showed was not to indicate that they were already saved, but that the message of Christ was also to be for them because it was unlawful for Peter to even be there, much less be teaching them. Their speaking in tongues served 2 purposes: 1. Confirmation to the Jews that Christ died for everyone. 2. Confirmation to the Gentiles that what they accepted was truth.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 13, 2004.

1John 2:3 "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

David, since when has obedience become optional?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 13, 2004.

I have a comment that I would like to make. If baptism is necessary for salvation then what about the thief on the cross? I don't think he crawled down and was baptised. Jesus told him " this day you will be with me in paradise" and this was because he BELIEVED that Jesus was our Saviour. I grew up going to a Church of Christ and let me tell you that was the most harmful thing for me spirtually. I have finally gotten over the feeling of being condemned because I didn't follow a set of rules. The Church of Christ reminds me of the pharisees in the Bible, you are so concerned with what the rules are that you forget what the point really is. Jesus came to do away with religion we are to have FAITH in Him thats what He wants. When we believe in Him thats what saves us!! The Church of Christ is a cult! Any church that says it is the only true church is wrong! Do you really think that someone who goes to another chuch is going to go to hell? Besides who are you to jugde? Are you God? Will you be standing at the gates reading an attendence sheet? I doubt it! Take it from someone who left and got out of that whole way of thinking. I'm a Christian I love the Lord with all my heart I trust in Him for everything. He is my Savior. That is what is important. Anyway I could go on forever but I won't. Bye.

-- Stephanie Sanchez (abernathy541@aol.com), April 09, 2004.

Amen Stephanie!!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 09, 2004.

Back up a little bit, Stephanie. We should have a strong look at the thief on the cross situation before we go and disqualify Baptism. Jesus has the power to Save and needed not to perform a physical water baptism. We can't really say what happened unless we are given the insights Jesus and Dismas (the thief) had on that day.

No, I'm not with the church of Christ.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.

Stephanie wrote, "I have a comment that I would like to make. If baptism is necessary for salvation then what about the thief on the cross? I don't think he crawled down and was baptised. Jesus told him " this day you will be with me in paradise" and this was because he BELIEVED that Jesus was our Saviour."

How many times does someone have to say that Jesus had the power while He was on the earth to FORGIVE SINS??? Please go back and read Matthew 9:6 and Mark 2:10. Jesus was NOT dead when He gave told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise. Since Jesus had NOT yet died, His testament (the New Testament), and the requirements for entrance INTO His body which is the church had NOT yet been given for Hebrews 9:17 states, "For a testament is in force AFTER men are dead, since it has NO POWER at all while the testator lives". To claim that one can be saved like the thief is NOT the TRUTH according to the word of God.

Stephanie wrote, "I grew up going to a Church of Christ and let me tell you that was the most harmful thing for me spirtually. I have finally gotten over the feeling of being condemned because I didn't follow a set of rules."

Please explain "what rules" you had to follow Stephanie??? I would like for you to tell everyone here what rules that this church "condemned" you for not keeping???

Stephanie wrote, "The Church of Christ reminds me of the pharisees in the Bible, you are so concerned with what the rules are that you forget what the point really is."

If those in the churches of Christ are "pharisees" as you so state, then I would like to suggest that you get busy PROVING how this is indeed the truth.

Stephanie wrote, "Jesus came to do away with religion we are to have FAITH in Him thats what He wants. When we believe in Him thats what saves us!!"

No, that is NOT the truth Stephanie. Jesus did NOT come to "do away with religion" as you so state, and I challenge you to prove that this is the truth according to the word of God. Jesus does NOT just want "FAITH in Him" as you so state, for there are MANY who believe in Christ that will be LOST on judgment day for this is PLAINLY revealed in Scripture. (See Luke 6:46). There is also NO MENTION in the word of God that when we "believe in Him" that one will be saved without further works of obedience. If you claim that one is saved by "faith only", then you ought to be able to prove this from His word.

Stephanie wrote, "The Church of Christ is a cult!"

This is something else that I CHALLENGE YOU to prove Stephanie. David has also made this same exact FALSE ACCUSATION, and to date, he has NOT shown that this is true. It is easy to make an accusation, but much harder to PROVE IT!!!

Stephanie wrote, "Any church that says it is the only true church is wrong! Do you really think that someone who goes to another chuch is going to go to hell?"

How many bodies of Christ are there Stepanie??? One, two or over 3,000 denominations or more??? God says that there is ONE BODY, not MANY as you seem to advocate here. Go back and re-read Ephesians 4:4, Romans 12:4, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 12:12 and 1 Corinthians 12:20.

Stephanie wrote, "Besides who are you to jugde? Are you God? Will you be standing at the gates reading an attendence sheet? I doubt it! Take it from someone who left and got out of that whole way of thinking. I'm a Christian I love the Lord with all my heart I trust in Him for everything. He is my Savior. That is what is important. Anyway I could go on forever but I won't. Bye."

Have you not read Stephanie that God said in 1 Corinthians 6:2, "Do you not know that THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE THE WORLD?"

This is EXACTLY what I am doing. It is NOT wrong to judge, Jesus said in John 7:24, "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT."

Psalm 149:5-9 states, "Let the SAINTS be joyful in glory; Let them sing aloud on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And A TWO-EDGED SWORD IN THEIR HAND , TO EXECUTE VENGEANCE ON THE NATIONS, And punishments on the peoples; To bind their kings with chains, And their nobles with fetters of iron; TO EXECUTE ON THEM WRITTEN JUDGMENT--THIS HONOR HAVE ALL HIS SAINTS. Praise the LORD!"

This "two-edged sword" IS the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17). The word of God is what His saints use to judge the world. The word of God is what His SAINTS use to JUDGE THE WORLD for God said in Hebrews 4:12-13, "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

God also says in 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God"

We will be JUDGED by the things that are WRITTEN in this book. (John 12:48, Revelation 20:12).

If you became a Christian (i.e. obeyed the gospel) while you were a member of the church of Christ, then you have been saved, but if you have LEFT the church, then you are NOT saved. Christ will ONLY save those who are IN His body which is the church.

David,

You can say "amen" all you want to what Stephanie wrote, but as my post above CLEARLY shows, you do NOT know what you are talking about.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 09, 2004.

1 Corinthians 3 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 09, 2004.

No Kevin, that is not a reply to you. That is just a passage I liked and posted, you think whatever you want.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 09, 2004.

Stephanie, I understand and sympathize with your feelings. Many congregations in the church of Christ family have been exceedingly legalistic, causing spiritual disintegration and hard feelings. Most denominations prey on this, advertising a church built on grace and love, not rules and authority.

However, I have asked questions and been wrong on issues before. I study and study more. I listen to other points of view, then share mine. I am convinced very much so, that most people in the church of Christ are solid in truth, and share it with others. Perhaps they do not always share lovingly, that is a shame. But the truth doesn't change. You've called the chuch of Christ a cult. A very strong accusation. If you were speaking about the ICC, i might be inclined to agree with you. But your statement, as it is, is badly placed.

What is a cult? There are many definitions, but we could generally agree that it is any organization harmful either physically or spiritually. To me, any church that teaches obedience is non-essential , these that advertise grace and love, are the cults. Why? Because most of them flatly contradict scripture with their own teachings. "All you have to do is believe." That is hogwash, and totally against the Bible. Don't be sucked into this nonsense. It is cultish.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.

It is so evil to turn works of God into rituals. My compassion goes out to those who have been misled. My anger burns at those who teach it.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.

Rod, I am with the church of Christ, and while I can't say I see eye to eye with absolutly everything, I am very thankful to be raised in a church, that gets the essentials right. Salvation is not an issue that we can "agree to disagree" on.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.

Dear Reader

Church of Chirst says:

"Since the Scriptures are sufficient for our every need (II Timothy 3:16-17)), our preaching and teaching contains only that which is commanded in the Bible"

now, here's what the Bible really says -- KJV (protestant):

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

you work it out.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 09, 2004.

Ian,

Please explain to all of the readers here what the difference is between what someone from the church of Christ wrote, and what you quoted from the Bible in your last post??? If there is a difference between the two, then you should have no problem pointing them out right???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 09, 2004.

Hi Luke and Kevin.

By now, we should understand where each of us are coming from. We are understanding each other's doctrine. Stephanie, on the other hand, may very well have a good arguement for her walks with her church of Christ. Sometimes people get in the way of doctrine. I can't say that "the" church of Christ is absolutely wrong or right. But, like Luke has mentioned, "Salvation" must remain consistent. Ian also points out what should be rather obvious by now--"work it out". It could be that Stephanie is searching for the same and has stumbled along the way.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 09, 2004.

from What is the one True Church

Interesting article David. Just a few things I noticed…

The writers (Tom Goehle and Larry L. Carré) show in part 1 that “It should be emphasized that, because of the local autonomy of each church, there are variations in some of the doctrinal beliefs and practices. Each church has to be evaluated, on its own system of theological truths, its form of church government, and specific sacramental traditions and practices.”

I have to congratulate Mr. Goehle and Mr. Carré for pointing out the truth. No church that fits in the above description could be classified as a part of a denomination. The gentlemen go on to make valid assessments of general church practices and beliefs, as well as an unbiased account of history. As to their conclusions about the church, I would admit them to be mostly accurate. However, it is when they try to refute church practice that their article falls into error.

They write, “We agree that baptism is important because Jesus commanded it (Matthew 28:19).”

I have to ask Mr. Goehle and Mr. Carré why they believe Jesus gave this command. Is Christianity more about following orders, or about seeking Jesus? While our finite minds will never grasp an infinite God, we can and should understand the purpose of many commands.

“However, if we are to understand the totality of Scripture correctly, we should consider many other Scripture references that do not mention baptism as an indispensable condition for salvation.”

I fully agree. In fact, this is exactly how we know that immersion is essential to salvation. I believe we should consider many scriptures such as 1 Cor. 16:22 which teaches love/u> as indispensable to salvation. Here are some other things that are indispensable to a person’s eternal salvation:

Faith (John 3:16)

The Gospel (1Peter 1:23)

Confession ( Matthew 10:32)

Obedience (Hebrews 5:9)

Hope (Romans 8:24)

These are just a few ingredients essential to salvation. To ignore any one of them would be to misunderstand the totality of scripture, as Mr. Goehle and Mr. Carré have stated. Baptism is one of these sirs, please do not ignore your own advice.

“Part of sound Scriptural interpretation (hermeneutics) is examining all of the Scriptural evidence and understanding the authors’ intentions when they were inspired to write Scripture. You should not build a doctrine out of a few historical verses.”

I am curious as to the views of these men on such doctrines as “faith only” or “salvation by grace only.” Did you know that these doctrines are only recent historical trends? While we should examine the author’s intentions, especially the writings of John, we should also not ignore the Holy inspiration these men received to write. Why did Luke repeat things that had already been established? Perhaps God wanted everyone to know how he wants us to respond to the Gospel.

“The belief that salvation is a process was proclaimed by Church of Christ members and ministers alike. Their process of salvation includes: (1) repentance, (2) belief in Jesus Christ, (3) confession that Jesus is Lord of one’s life, (4) belief that Christ was resurrected, (5) being baptized for the washing away of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit, and (6) standing firm in one’s belief until the end.”

This is the only logical interpretation when following the precious hermeneutics.

“From an Evangelical perspective, we would take issue with the notion that salvation is a process. Regeneration occurs when the Holy Spirit enters the person’s heart (Titus 3:5) and he or she is "sealed" as God’s own (Ephesians 1:13-14), being made "alive" to Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and thus being "born again" (1 Peter 1:23).”

Hmm, how strange. I have to say Mr. Goehle and Mr. Carré, your evangelical perspective looks oddly like a process also, only reworded. However, we are simply on different pages.

“Personal salvation is understood as being secured at the moment of regeneration, not as an uncertain process that is conditional upon any works of the believer.”

I also believe that regeneration is the point which we are saved. Salvation is dependent upon being regenerated or reborn. More on this in a sec. However, what determines who is reborn and who isn’t? Does God simply say, “Ok Mr. Jones, today I am going to regenerate you” or are there certain actions or works (if you will) in order to be saved? You gentlemen also seem to think that regeneration is something that occurs after one is classified as a believer. I thought only those who are saved are believers. (Note the difference between simply believing, and being a believer) To me, the process of leading to salvation starts when one is still an unbeliever.

“Baptism is viewed as a sacrament, an indispensable mechanism of the salvation process when God’s grace infuses the person. Also, the Church of Christ member has no assurance of salvation unless he or she is "standing firm to the end," which is conditional and depends on the believer. In this sense, salvation is works-based because it depends on what the believer must do to keep saved.”

What happened to context and hermeneutics? It is obvious you gentlemen do not know that there are many kinds of works, or perhaps you do but you do not understand which works Paul was speaking of. This kind of pretext is exactly why you cannot reconcile James 2 with Romans 3, Eph.3

The only other point I wish to point out in their article is about Original Sin. Apparently, Mr. Goehle and Mr. Carré visited a church and inquired about this subject. In turn, the book of Romans 5 was given, however, the writers feel the church purposely ignored a verse.

“By citing only verse twelve or stopping at verse fourteen, we miss the evidence in verses fifteen through twenty-one where Paul contrasts Adam and Christ respectively. In verse nineteen, Paul states: ‘For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.’”

And what exactly does this verse show except the opposite of which you want? You claim we are made sinners at birth yet the verse also says that we are made righteous by Christ. Again, you do not understand that we are neither made sinners nor righteous at birth, but we are made sinners and righteous by choice. You’re failure to apply both parts of this verse is the cause of your corrupt doctrine of Original sin.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 10, 2004.

underline off??

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 10, 2004.

ar ar ar

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 10, 2004.

Kevin..,

Can you show that your church has always existed?

What was it called say in 300 A.D??

How about 400 A.D?

Was it an established church structure?

Is it an established church structure today?

Can you show an unbroken line of existence in history? Not even the Catholic Church can do that, try as they might. Where was your church while the Catholic Church was taking over and claiming to be the headquarters of Christ's church?

The only true church or body of Christ necessarily existed since the time of Christ. All true believers are a part of this body.

How can you think that the church you belong to is this Body??

Only Jesus knows who are his Body......

And He promises to come for us in the end of days to establish us. That is what the Bible says.

I think that you are deluding yourself if you believe that Christ's church is exclusive.....and that only members to your institution are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 10, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Can you show that your church has always existed?"

This is not necessary, please read Luke 8:11.

You wrote, The only true church or body of Christ necessarily existed since the time of Christ. All true believers are a part of this body."

Once again I will ask you Faith, where is your proof of an INVISIBLE CHURCH???

You wrote, "How can you think that the church you belong to is this Body??"

See Romans 1:16 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. It is OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL that allows one to be ADDED to the church.

You wrote, "Only Jesus knows who are his Body......"

Scripture(s) please???

You wrote, "And He promises to come for us in the end of days to establish us. That is what the Bible says."

Once again Faith, you do err NOT knowing the truth. The church of Christ is here on this earth, and has already been established.

You wrote, "I think that you are deluding yourself if you believe that Christ's church is exclusive.....and that only members to your institution are saved."

Faith, you are sadly mistaken if you think I am "deluding" myself. I have asked you to show how all of these conflicting denominations are the "body of Christ", and to date there have been NO scriputural references to back up your assertions. This is God?s Plan of Salvation according to the Bible. The New Testament tells us what we must DO to be saved and receive eternal life:

1. Hear the Gospel. (John 5:24, Acts 15:7, Romans 10:17, Revelation 3:20).

2. Believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that he came to earth and voluntarily died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. Believe that Jesus then arose from the dead in order that we may have eternal life. (Mark 16:16, John 3:16-18, John 8:24, John 11:25-26, John 20:31, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9-10, Hebrews 11:6, 1 Peter 1:8-9).

3. Repent of our sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Corinthians 7:10, 2 Peter 3:9).

4. Confess before others that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. (Matthew 10:32, Romans 10:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:19).

5. Be immersed in baptism (water) for the remission of your sins. (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38-41, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:26-27, Titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:18-22).

6. Stand firm. (live a faithful Christian life). (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:36, James 1:12).

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9). Obedience and Submission PROVE our love for the Lord. Your "faith only" salvation will cost you eternally. Go back and re-read Luke 6:46.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 11, 2004.

Maybe if you paid attention Kevin.., you would know that I do *not* claim that any one religion or denomination on this earth is the true church of Jesus Christ. I believe that *none* are. I believe that all true believers are part of his Body.., but we could be among any one religion or denomination. It is a matter of the heart. Jesus knows who we are. There are saved Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists...etc...

We cannot be divided because we are united in Christ.....by faith in His blood.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 11, 2004.

Faith wrote, "Maybe if you paid attention Kevin.., you would know that I do *not* claim that any one religion or denomination on this earth is the true church of Jesus Christ. I believe that *none* are. I believe that all true believers are part of his Body.., but we could be among any one religion or denomination. It is a matter of the heart. Jesus knows who we are. There are saved Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists...etc..."

Ooh, getting a little testy are we Faith??? I am still waiting for your Scripture(s) that show that there is such a thing as an "invisible church". There is NO such thing as a Catholic-Christian, a Lutheran-Christian, a Calvinist-Christian etc... if there were, then you would have no problem PROVING this from the word of God. The FACT of the matter is, there are NO Christians OUTSIDE of the body of Christ, which is HIS CHURCH, the church of Christ. ONLY those who have "obeyed the gospel" as the word of God PLAINLY teaches are ADDED by the Lord to HIS CHURCH.

Faith wrote, "We cannot be divided because we are united in Christ.....by faith in His blood."

Once again you clearly CONTRADICT the word of God for Denominationalism is CONTRARY to the Scriptures. (See John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 1:10-13 and Ephesians 4:4-6. Is God the author of confusion??? To claim that one can be saved in any church or that one church is as good as another is NOT what the New Testament teaches. Go back and re-read Galatians 1:7-9.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 11, 2004.

Kevin..,

Just because some people got together and decided to name their cgurch, The Church of Christ.., doesn't make it so. When did it come to be? You still haven't shown me its existence in history. When was it founded? Can we *see* it all along in history. Is it a literal building of sorts? Where is this church and where has it always been?

If you can't show me a physical string of existence from the time of the apostles., then it is a lie.

The true church of Jesus Christ does indeed exist since the time of Christ--but you can't see an established structure or institution. And it isn't confined in any one building. If it is--show me its history. And don't resort to the New Testament--I can do that too--to prove that Christ's church would never be hold-up in an earthly institution.

Show me this church in action in 200 A.D..show it in 500 A.D.., show in in 1000 A.D.., show it in 1400 A.D. Show me your church in 1700 A.D..show it to me in 1850 A.D., and show it to me in 1913. Then I'll belive it exists. The Catholic Church is the only church to have tried and show this. Where was your church and its protesting? Is your church invisible Kevin??

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 12, 2004.

Faith,

I already answered your question, please go back and re-read Luke 8:11.

You wrote, "If you can't show me a physical string of existence from the time of the apostles., then it is a lie."

Please show me where the word of God states that it is necessary to have a "physical string of existance from the time of the apostles" to be the true church??? Scripture(s) please.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 13, 2004.

You are the one that claims that your church is the same as the one the apostles started. Therefore it necessarily has to have existed from that time--no?

What--did it take a break for a few thousand years?

Or is it the truth that your church simply claims to be the church that Christ started simply because it thinks it is most like it?

Don't forget that the churches in the early New Testament times were individual. There was no universal hierarchy. It had its own government, deacons, elders and pastors. It did not answer to Rome, or any other hierarchy. It followed the apostles. This was as earthly as it got.

We do this to this day. This is because God wants that believers come together in worship. He wants that we have an earthly church--locally- -for believers to gather and provide support for each other.

But the true *church* or Body of Christ--is not hold up in any one of these places--but it is spiritual. Christ's church or Body is universal. We can be found all over the world.

The local church structure is merely an earthly institution to house us.

What I am trying to find out is *when* was your earthly structure founded?

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 13, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "You are the one that claims that your church is the same as the one the apostles started. Therefore it necessarily has to have existed from that time--no?"

What does Luke 8:11 say???

You wrote, "What--did it take a break for a few thousand years?"

I will ask you this question again, "Please show me where the word of God states that it is necessary to have a "physical string of existance from the time of the apostles" to be the true church??? Scripture(s) please."

You wrote, "Or is it the truth that your church simply claims to be the church that Christ started simply because it thinks it is most like it?"

No, because we teach EXACTLY what the New Testament teaches that one must "obey the gospel" in order to be saved.

You wrote, "Don't forget that the churches in the early New Testament times were individual. There was no universal hierarchy. It had its own government, deacons, elders and pastors. It did not answer to Rome, or any other hierarchy. It followed the apostles. This was as earthly as it got. We do this to this day. This is because God wants that believers come together in worship. He wants that we have an earthly church--locally- -for believers to gather and provide support for each other."

Which is EXACTLY how the church of Christ operates, with NO universal hierarchy and does NOT answer to Rome or anyone else except Jesus Christ.

You wrote, "But the true *church* or Body of Christ--is not hold up in any one of these places--but it is spiritual. Christ's church or Body is universal. We can be found all over the world. The local church structure is merely an earthly institution to house us."

I will ask you again Faith, where is it written in the New Testament that the body of Christ is ONLY "spiritual"???

You wrote, "What I am trying to find out is *when* was your earthly structure founded?"

On the day of Pentecost, A.D. 33.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.

What does Luke 8:11 say???

It has nothing to do with my question to you.

You wrote, "What--did it take a break for a few thousand years?"

I will ask you this question again, "Please show me where the word of God states that it is necessary to have a "physical string of existance from the time of the apostles" to be the true church??? Scripture(s) please."

Quite the contrary--I do *not* believe there is a physical string from the time of Christ which can claim to be His church.

You wrote, "Or is it the truth that your church simply claims to be the church that Christ started simply because it thinks it is most like it?"

No, because we teach EXACTLY what the New Testament teaches that one must "obey the gospel" in order to be saved.

Many churches believe that they teach what the apostles taught in New Testament times.

You wrote, "Don't forget that the churches in the early New Testament times were individual. There was no universal hierarchy. It had its own government, deacons, elders and pastors. It did not answer to Rome, or any other hierarchy. It followed the apostles. This was as earthly as it got. We do this to this day. This is because God wants that believers come together in worship. He wants that we have an earthly church--locally- -for believers to gather and provide support for each other."

Which is EXACTLY how the church of Christ operates, with NO universal hierarchy and does NOT answer to Rome or anyone else except Jesus Christ.

You wrote, "But the true *church* or Body of Christ--is not hold up in any one of these places--but it is spiritual. Christ's church or Body is universal. We can be found all over the world. The local church structure is merely an earthly institution to house us."

I will ask you again Faith, where is it written in the New Testament that the body of Christ is ONLY "spiritual"???

It is spiritual in oneness and body--but there are many local churches that give us a place to come together in person to worship and praise Him.

You wrote, "What I am trying to find out is *when* was your earthly structure founded?"

On the day of Pentecost, A.D. 33.

Wrong--every church can claim that. When was your particular denomination formed? I bet its younger than most...

Here is a good verse that supports the idea that Christ's body is invisible for now, but growing...

"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." (Matthew 13:33 NAS)

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.

"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up onto the shore. Then they sat down and collected all the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.

This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The church is hidden for now among all people. Jesus knows who are His--and He will separate those who belong to Him, from those who do not--at the end of the age. Then He will establish His church in the physical and He will live with us and we will be His people and He will be our God....Amen!

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.

Faith,

You asked the question, "You are the one that claims that your church is the same as the one the apostles started. Therefore it necessarily has to have existed from that time--no?" To which I replied, "What does Luke 8:11 say???"

Then you responded, "It has nothing to do with my question to you."

My reply: Yes, it most certainly does have something to do with your question. Jesus said that the living word of God is the seed of the kingdom (Luke 8:11) by which the child of God is begotten. The child of God enters the kingdom when they is baptized INTO Christ and they are added by the Lord to the church. (Acts 2:47). The kingdom is the church (Matthew 16:18-19) therefore, the new birth introduces one into the church. The church is the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18, 24). Those who have NOT been born of WATER (water baptism) and the SPIRIT (THROUGH the word of God) will NOT enter the kingdom of God which is the church.

I asked you the following, "Please show me where the word of God states that it is necessary to have a "physical string of existance from the time of the apostles" to be the true church??? Scripture(s) please."

To which you replied, "Quite the contrary--I do *not* believe there is a physical string from the time of Christ which can claim to be His church."

However in speaking of the church, earlier you stated, "If you can't show me a physical string of existence from the time of the apostles., then it is a lie."

My reply: Who says that there MUST be a "physical string of existence from the time of the apostles" in order to a church to be the TRUE church??? Is this your logic Faith??? Or has someone taught you this because you most certainly will NOT get this from reading the New Testament. See my comment above concerning the church.

You wrote, "Many churches believe that they teach what the apostles taught in New Testament times."

These "Many churches" LEAD their people down the BROAD road that leads to DESTRUCTION. (Matthew 7:13).

I wrote, "I will ask you again Faith, where is it written in the New Testament that the body of Christ is ONLY "spiritual"???"

To which you replied, "It is spiritual in oneness and body--but there are many local churches that give us a place to come together in person to worship and praise Him."

Once again, you provide NO scriptural references to show that the body of Christ is ONLY "spiritual" this does not surprise me because NONE exist in the New Testament. You have been DECEIVED.

You wrote, "What I am trying to find out is *when* was your earthly structure founded?"

To which I replied, "On the day of Pentecost, A.D. 33."

Then you responded, "Wrong--every church can claim that. When was your particular denomination formed? I bet its younger than most..."

The church of Christ is NOT a denomination. The church of Christ began on the day of Pentecost, A.D. 33.

You wrote, "Here is a good verse that supports the idea that Christ's body is invisible for now, but growing..."The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three pecks of meal, until it was all leavened." (Matthew 13:33 NAS)"

This verse does NOT support the idea of an "invisible" body??? The kingdom of heaven is NOT something that is HIDDEN. Anyone who reads the New Testament can easily understand that the church and the kingdom are the same, because every time the first century Christians planted the seed of the kingdom (Luke 8:11), churches of Christ sprang up. When these first century Christians preached the gospel, men and women were told of their need to be baptized because it was by the means of baptism that men and women entered Christ. Salvation is IN Christ and the Bible teaches that the ONLY means of entering Christ is by baptism in water. The apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 3:26?27, " For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " I wish to emphasize for you those three words inspired by the Holy Spirit that says one puts on Christ by being "baptized into Christ." There is NO OTHER WAY revealed in the scripture of entering Christ.

You wrote, "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up onto the shore. Then they sat down and collected all the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away."

This verse also does NOT prove your assertion that the body of Christ is "invisible". Were the churches in the first century that we read about "invisible"??? What about the churches in Revelation chapter 2 and 3, were they "invisible"??? Hardly...

You wrote, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Yes, the angels will come and "separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace" because God says in Matthew 13:38-39, "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one." The GOOD SEEDS are those that God has sown THROUGH His word and the BAD SEEDS are the ones the Devil has sown (See Matthew 13:39) and that is evident in ALL of these churches who teach FALSE DOCTRINE that there are many ways to heaven.

You wrote, "The church is hidden for now among all people. Jesus knows who are His--and He will separate those who belong to Him, from those who do not--at the end of the age. Then He will establish His church in the physical and He will live with us and we will be His people and He will be our God....Amen!"

Once again Faith you are mistaken. The church of Christ is HERE ON THIS EARTH right now, once Christ returns, the earth will be BURNED UP (2 Peter 3:10). Our home is in HEAVEN, and NOT here on this earth. (Philippians 3:20).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.

The true church of Jesus Christ is the kingdom described in the verses I provided for you. It is hidden among the people today..and it is growing--with new believers being added daily.

We are universal-- mixed in with all kinds of people., and spread all over the globe.

We are not separated out of the world and kept nice and tidy in your church structure., or any church structure for that matter.

If you want to claim that Christ's church is not spiritual--but physical--then you need to show it.

Since you cannot--we can see that it is spiritual.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.

Faith,

Go back and re-read the letters to the churches at Rome (Romans), Corinth (1 and 2 Corinthians), Galatia (Galatians), Ephesus (Ephesians), Philippi (Philippians), Colossae (Colossians), Thessalonica (1 and 2 Thessalonians) and the churhes in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea). Were these churches "invisible" as you so state??? Hardly...

How can someone send a letter to an "invisible" church???

Your claim that the church of Christ is "invisible" is NOT what the New Testament teaches.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.

Those earthly churches were not invisible.., and neither are the earthly churches invisible today.

But Christ's body--the true church-- is not caught-up in any one of them....

It wasn't then either. You can see that each church was local--it had it's own government, made its own decisions and followed apostolic teachings, as we do today. There is no one church that is *the* church of Jesus Christ in the physical sense.

Christ's true church is His body of believers., those who have received Him. Those whose names will be found in the book of life. This will be determined at the end of the age. Jesus knows who we are....

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 17, 2004.

Faith,

Until you can provide PROOF from the New Testament that the body of Christ which is the church is "invisible", then you really do NOT know what you are talking about.

The church of Christ is NOT some "invisible" institution that Jesus made when He said, "I will build my church" in Matthew 16:18. To claim that there are Christians in different denominations that teach CONFLICTING doctrines is NOT what the New Testament teaches.

Your claim that churches follow apostolic teachings is NOT the truth. If they did follow the apostles teachings they would NOT be teaching that one is saved by "faith only" nor would anyone follow the teachings of "calvin" or of any other man but would rely on the word of God as their ONLY rule of faith and practice. Many denominations have their own "creed books" that are of men and NOT of God. To claim that one can worship God in any manner that he pleases is NOT what the NT teaches. God MUST be worshipped in "spirit and truth". (John 4:23-24) and to claim that one can worship God in any denomination that allows musical instruments is NOT worshipping God in "spirit and truth".

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man's all. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Those who have NOT obeyed the gospel, including you Faith, are outside of Christ and His church and separated from God. This INCLUDES everyone who is not a member of the church of Christ for they would rather believe what man tells them to do in order to be saved instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 17, 2004.

I think there is a difference between the physical church that we attend on earth.., and His body--which is the true church.., the church He was really building.

Matthew 13 gives plenty of parables that describe this kingdom as hidden and growing--not to be fully realized until that Day when Christ returns for us.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 18, 2004.

Actually Faith, Kevin is right, Jesus did found a visible church. Might I suggest you read Matthew 16:18 again. I think that should clear up the issue.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), April 18, 2004.

Jesus described His body, the true church. The foundation being He Himself. The kingdom is His true body--the church he really founded.

The earthly church is something else.....a way for us to come together in worship. But the church Jesus founded is not an earthly structure.

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 18, 2004.

i find this thread absolutely bizarre!!!!

Questions for Kevin:

1 when was the first "Church of Christ" ("CoC) celebration held??

2 who organised it??

PS answers like "at Pentecost" will not wash. maybe you should recognise that some historical background is needed. maybe we start to name names. who started this protestant denomination? who invented it? truthfully.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 18, 2004.

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-- Alex (Alex@aol.com), April 22, 2004.

Kevin, a church does not save you, are you CAtholic? My issue with you is no musical instruments in church. That is not scriptural. Do you use a hymnal in church or a song leader, or a pitchpipe? If you do your sinning. The bible is silent about those things too. You have made a man made doctrine there. You are in ERROR now sir like the rest of the churches, just as you claim are in error, add yours to the list. Are you sure you arent a under cover Roman Catholic? You sound pretty legalistic to me sir. God wants us to rejoice with song and praise. He would never amke a foolish rule like that, Kevin EVER. You have NO proof of that. It is your distorted way of looking at scripture. Pray for better discernment. Dont bother trying to refute this I'am not faith. ok

-- BEVERLY O'Day (Baogeo69@aol.com), September 27, 2004.

Kevin! my long-time-no-see brother! You are Catholic?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2004.

Beverly wrote, "Kevin, a church does not save you, are you CAtholic?"

No, I am not Catholic.

Beverly wrote, "My issue with you is no musical instruments in church. That is not scriptural."

If it is scriptural, then you should have no problem providing support in the New Testament for it's use.

Beverly wrote, "Do you use a hymnal in church or a song leader, or a pitchpipe?"

Yes, we do use those in our worship to God.

Beverly wrote, "If you do your sinning. The bible is silent about those things too."

Really who told you this??? Was it your pastor??? or a priest??? You certainly did not get this from reading the Bible. Using a hymnal or a song leader or a pitch pipe do "not" change the fact that we are commanded to sing. These things assist in helping us sing, they do not change the command thus there is nothing wrong in using them in our worship to God.

Beverly wrote, "You have made a man made doctrine there."

Okay, I just showed above that you really don't know what you are talking about.

Beverly wrote, "You are in ERROR now sir like the rest of the churches, just as you claim are in error, add yours to the list."

You have been misled Beverly. If I am in "error" as you state, then I suggest you get busy proving this from the New Testament.

Beverly wrote, "Are you sure you arent a under cover Roman Catholic?"

Again, I am not a Roman Catholic.

Beverly wrote, "You sound pretty legalistic to me sir."

I am not the one makes the rules, God has already stated what He considers acceptable worship and it is our job to do what He says.

Beverly wrote, "God wants us to rejoice with song and praise."

Yes, we are commanded to sing, not play instruments.

Beverly wrote, "He would never amke a foolish rule like that, Kevin EVER."

Where is your proof that we are commanded to use instrumental music in worship???

Beverly wrote, "You have NO proof of that."

The proof is in the New Testament that God requires us to sing, not play instruments in our worship to Him.

Beverly wrote, "It is your distorted way of looking at scripture."

If my way of looking at scripture is "distorted" then I would like to suggest that you get busy in correcting my distorted view instead of making accusations with no proof offered.

Beverly wrote, "Pray for better discernment. Dont bother trying to refute this I'am not faith. ok"

I never said that you were "faith" however if you are going to make accusations, then I would like to suggest that you prove them otherwise your words mean nothing.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 28, 2004.

Rod,

Sorry to disappoint you, I am not a Catholic.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 28, 2004.

Kevin, in case you are interested, we had a discussion on instrumental worship at the ezboard forum awhile back.

Instrumental Worship.

There I linked to a Reformed Presbyterian church's site that believes they should not use instruments in worship, and they also believe in singing only Psalms. I have heard some Biblical arguments from them (I visited 2 of their churches for awhile and had friends who went there) that might make sense for "Sola Scriptura" people. IMO, the Bible is not explicit enough either way to make a blanket statement like "we must use instruments" or "we cannot use instruments." I think both types of worship are beautiful and that God loves when we worship him in any way. Since Scripture is not explicit on this matter, I think God left this for the Church authority to decide.

Nonetheless, you might wish to look into their stuff, since they attempt to prove the no-instruments doctrine from exegesis of Scripture rather than just saying there's a lack of command for instruments.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 29, 2004.

Kevin, you know I'm just kidding, but I think Beverly may not take it so easily that you aren't Catholic.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 29, 2004.

Why would a vocal group need a pitchpipe? All you need is for somebody to sing a reasonable pitch and go with that. Pitchpipes are for tuning to musical instruments which require a standard pitch for everyone to get along.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 29, 2004.

Emily,

This is the problem I have with your statement, you said, "I think..."

It doesn't come down to what we "think", it comes down to what God authorizes in worship and He has commanded us to sing, not play instrumental music.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 01, 2004.

Kevin, I was simply trying to share something with you that I thought you might benefit from or appreciate. I did not wish to debate this topic. Nonetheless, we all have our convictions and beliefs. Yours are that we should not use instruments in worship, but does that make it 100% a message straight from God? We all have convictions or "think" that we know the Truth. Time will tell who was right... But it's not like I attacked your view -- I was only trying to share something that I thought you would like. :(

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 01, 2004.

Emily,

If you did "not" wish to debate this topic, then why did you even bother to post on the subject of instrumental music???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 07, 2004.

Kevin, I do not like arguments, but I must defend my faith when it is attacked or misrepresented. However, I see instruments or no- instruments as a neutral issue. Nonetheless, I was trying to share something nice with you that I thought you might like and appreciate.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 07, 2004.

Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. (Psalms 150:3-4)

It is good to give thanks to the LORD And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High; To declare Your loving kindness in the morning And Your faithfulness by night, With the ten-stringed lute and with the harp, With resounding music upon the lyre. (Psalms 92:1-3)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 07, 2004.

Yes, but. Kevin will not recognize the Old Testament as a source of instruction when it relates to "worship".

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.

Did the Jews of Old Testament times worship the same God Christians worship? Were the Old Testament writings inspired by the same God as the New Testament writings? If so, then it was that One God Who commanded that instrumental music and song be incorporated into worship of Him. The time when He issued the command is irrelevent. God doesn't contradict Himself. The Ten Commandments were given in Old Testament times too. I wonder if Kevin rejects those commands as well?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 08, 2004.

I would entertain the idea that during the early Christian times of hiding in catacombs during worship would make it necessary for them not to make loud noises with instruments. They didn't exactly want to attract the wrong crowds to them. Musical instruments in this case would not be a good thing. But, I don't see why a musician, with God given talents, would not want to praise and worship God with those given talents and skills. My musical talents come from God. Sure, I wish He had given me more talent, but what I do have has worked for me and helped provide a living for myself and my family. The least I can do (and have done) is to celebrate Him with music,all types of music including musical instruments.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 08, 2004.

Emily,

You wrote, "Kevin, I do not like arguments, but I must defend my faith when it is attacked or misrepresented."

Did I "attack or misrepresent" your faith? If so, please explain.

You wrote, "However, I see instruments or no- instruments as a neutral issue."

Here is the problem with your whole argument Emily, you say, "I see"... and not what God has stated is acceptable in worship.

You wrote, "Nonetheless, I was trying to share something nice with you that I thought you might like and appreciate."

I appreciate the thought, thank you.

Paul quoted Psalm 150:3-4 and then quoted Psalm 92:1-3 with no comment.

Please also notice readers that we live under the New Covenant, the Old Covenant having been taken away (Heb. 10:9; Col. 2:14). There were many things that were performed in the worship of the Old Covenant (animal sacrifices, the burning of incense, etc.) that are not authorized under Christ's New Covenant including the use of instruments. Does the Catholic Church use any of these that were authorized in the Old Testament in worship to God today??? If not, why not?

Rod wrote, "Yes, but. Kevin will not recognize the Old Testament as a source of instruction when it relates to "worship"."

When you worship God do you sacrifice animals on an altar to God??? If not why not???

Paul wrote, "Did the Jews of Old Testament times worship the same God Christians worship?"

Yes they did worship the same God.

Paul wrote, "Were the Old Testament writings inspired by the same God as the New Testament writings?"

Yes, they were inspired by the same God.

Paul wrote, "If so, then it was that One God Who commanded that instrumental music and song be incorporated into worship of Him. The time when He issued the command is irrelevent."

This statement flatly contradicts what God says in the New Testament when He said in Hebrews 9:9-10, "9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation." Animal sacrifices and instrumental music were used in worship to God under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is no longer in force we are now under the New Covenant.

Paul wrote, "God doesn't contradict Himself. The Ten Commandments were given in Old Testament times too. I wonder if Kevin rejects those commands as well?"

The Ten Commandments along with all of the Old Covenant given in the Old Testament have been "nailed to the cross" (Colossians 2:14).

Rod wrote, "I would entertain the idea that during the early Christian times of hiding in catacombs during worship would make it necessary for them not to make loud noises with instruments. They didn't exactly want to attract the wrong crowds to them. Musical instruments in this case would not be a good thing."

God has been "clear" in the New Testament what kind of music He has authorized. "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You." (Hebrews 2:12).

Rod wrote, "But, I don't see why a musician, with God given talents, would not want to praise and worship God with those given talents and skills. My musical talents come from God. Sure, I wish He had given me more talent, but what I do have has worked for me and helped provide a living for myself and my family. The least I can do (and have done) is to celebrate Him with music,all types of music including musical instruments."

Rod like Emily has a problem with "I don't see..." instead of "what does God authorize". It does not matter whether or not you have a talent or skill as a musician, God has plainly revealed what kind of music is acceptable to Him in worship.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 09, 2004.

Let's do like the Shakers and have women and men sit seperate and sing in church. Forget the clapping.

Tell me this, Kevin. If I play the piano at church, will God be angry with me or just plain ignore me?

Does Scriptures tell of any adverse effects of playing a musical instrument in worship to Him? If so, what will happen?

..............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.

Where does it say?

Thou shall not play musical instruments in worship.

Thou shall build big cathedrals for worship.

Thou shall use big expensive sound systems for enhancing the voice during homilies and sermons during worship.

Thou shall use the radio for worship.

Thou shall use multi-media without musical instruments for worship.

Thou shall not bring into the house of God a musical instrument.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 09, 2004.

We must have God's approval for all that we do, including our worship.

How may we worship God, musically? Does it matter?

Authority For Worship

1. Matthew 28:18; Who has all power (authority)?

2. Colossians 3:17; All must be done in what?

3. 2 John 9; We must abide in what?

4. Deuteronomy 4:2; We must not do what?

5. Matthew 15:9; Following men makes worship what?

Worship Must Be In Truth

1. John 4:24; Our worship must be in ____ and _____.

2. John 17:17; What is truth?

3. John 16:13; The Apostles were guided into what?

4. John 14:26; They would be taught what?

5. Acts 1: 1 ? 2; To whom did Jesus give commandments?

6. 1 Corinthians 14:37; What did they write?

7. 2 Timothy 3:16 ? 17; Are the Scriptures all sufficient?

8. Can we go beyond the Scriptures and still worship in truth?

We Must Worship By Faith

1. Hebrews 11:6; What is necessary to please God?

2. Hebrews 11:4; Why was Able's worship acceptable?

3. Romans 10: 17; From what does faith come?

4. Romans 14:23; To act without faith is what?

5. Can we go beyond the Scriptures and worship by faith?

What Kind Of Music Does God Require?

1. Ephesians 5:19; What type of music is taught here?

2. Colossians 3:16; What type of music is taught here?

3. Hebrews 2:12; How are we to express praise?

Specific And Generic Commands:

1. Genesis 6:14; What type of wood was to be used? Would other types be acceptable? Why?

2. Exodus 12:3 ? 7; What type of animal was to be used? Would another type be acceptable? Why?

3. Matthew 26:26 ? 28; What elements were to be used? Would other elements be acceptable? Why?

4. Ephesians 5:19; What type of songs are we to sing? Would other types be acceptable? Why?

5. Ephesians 5:19; What type of music is specified? Would other types be acceptable? Why?

6. Colossians 3:17; In what are all things to be done? Did Christ teach mechanical music in worship?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 09, 2004.