St John the Baptist and his relationship with Jesus

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

Hi all does anyone have any thoughts on the folowng discussion I had with an agnostic Bible student, especially on the realtionship between Jesus and John.

>I alwayd forget about the OT saints! You're right. That's such an odd notion to me -- I mean, I understand it, because it makes sense for intercession purposes -- that I constantly forget it. As far as John ... the Catholic Church probably considers him a Christian, essentially. I think the most interesting thing about his part of the NT is the fact that there is clearly a movement going on around him, and Jesus is involved in it to some extent, but there's neither a schism between them nor does John follow Jesus as a disciple (perhaps Jesus waited until John was arrested to start his ministry, but he still seems to be acting on his own, not following John's example ... he's mobile, for one thing, with no apparent concern for the River Jordan; and he drinks and doesn't fast, which is a radical difference).

-- Tep (te...), August 30th, 2003.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im a bit stuck on the idea hes not a disciple.I do not know what the Church’s position is but from my personal reading of it: Id say if you acknowledge Jesus as the SAviour and place yourself beneath him, and you urge your followers to follow Christ as the SOn of God,as St John did ,then the fact he personally chooses not to, or is unable to physically follow Christ should not preclude him being a disciple in a wider sense. -- Kiwi (csisherwoo...), August 31st, 2003.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>That's the Catholic view, most likely -- but it requires the Catholic reading of the New Testaments (which most Protestants share, too). The bit where John acknowledges Jesus's supremacy -- there's very good reason to think that was added in later, or tossed in ahistorically to tie the two together. John was the leader, or at least central figure, of one of hundreds of fringe movements in Palestine at the time -- Jesus was another, but was probably a follower of John's for a time, or they at least started out seeing eye to eye. (You can see the ways the Gospel writers try to tie them together, because the Baptists were still around after John and Jesus were dead, and the Christians wanted them to join; in one out of four canonical Gospels, John is Jesus's cousin; the baptism happens slightly differently each time, as Jesus shows more and more definite superiority over John; and so forth).

Most likely their followers didn't disagree about anything major -- John's followers were probably not as strict about fasting as he had been, and Jesus's followers were not as loose as he had been, so they could meet in the middle -- but chances are that their contact with each other was pretty slim in life, and that the idea of the Baptist telling his followers to join up with Jesus is apocryphal.

-- Tep (te...), August 31st, 2003.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tep Im not a Bible scholar, I have only very basic Latin skills and I possess none of the essential languages necessary for one wishing to discuss such scholarly matters as revision of the Bible ie Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. In short I cannot debate what should and should not be in the Bible as I am woefully ill prepared to do so. Im happy to discuss the interpretation of the Bibles commonly accepted by the greatest bible scholars of our time, both protestant and catholic eg KJV and NAS buts thats about my lot. -- Kiwi (csisherwoo...), August 31st, 2003.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003

Answers

In cases like this it is up to the person proposing the hypothesis to prove it. What is his proof? Or even evidence? I didn't notice it in what you posted.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003.


Hi Bill no he hasnt provided any proof and I have no wish to even bring up the issue, no doubt he will provide many revisionist historial "proofs" that he has read.I am in no position to dispute such things with him I was just after a better explanation of the relationship bewteen thee two men from a catholic point of view.

Blessings and Peace!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 30, 2003.


It is true that the Gospels provide different information about the baptism of Jesus, however, they do not contradict each other. A careful reading shows they simply provide different vantage points to the same event. They are complimentary accounts not contradictory accounts.

I agree with your friend that Jesus spent a lot of time with John and they taught at the same time and in a very similar manor. Jesus’ early ministry did mimic John’s style and it is obvious that they spent a lot of time together. I would not make John a disciple of Jesus, there is evidence that Jesus was a student (not deciple) of John’s. It would not be a stretch to say that John taught Jesus some preaching techniques and when Jesus was baptizing in Judea He first consulted with John who decided to take to more difficult area of Aenon near Salim which is near the territory of the Samaritans (John 3:22-24). However, there is really no evidence of this decision, and we would have to speculate to reach it. We need to remember, as your friend pointed out, that when Jesus set out to teach the Good News it was a completely different message than Johns’ and taught in a completely different manor. Jesus did not start his preaching of the Good News of salvation until John was arrested and it was the end of the Baptists active mission (this was a fulfillment of a prophecy) see: Mark 1:14-15.

I really don’t think that John’s sending of his disciples to Jesus to find out if He is the Messiah was just ‘thrown in’. I would have to see some evidence of that. I think John doubted because the message Jesus taught was not one of fiery judgment, as John expected and taught.

Now, for the biography of John the Baptist from a Catholic point of view. I would point you to the old Catholic Encyclopedia : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08486b.htm

John the Baptist Preparing the Way, Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, O.P. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an1299.asp

Josephus Recorder of Jewish History, Etienne Nodet, O.P. http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/SFS/an0701.asp

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), August 31, 2003.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ