Charisms?

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Charisms are gifts given to believers. I heard a pastor say that all gifts are from God, yes. But, I am left with the understanding that charisms are still gifts given to an individual. For example, if we wish to be healed of an illness, we have choices. We can hope that a doctor may find some comfort or cure for our illness. Or, a faith healer may cure our illness. The argument goes that there aren't any faith healers, but faith healing. I am confused. If healing is a gift, then the person has been given the gift of healing. God works through the healer. Why God doesn't just heal, but requires a person is another question to be answered.

So, is it faith healing or faith healer?

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 07, 2003

Answers

rod,

There are NO more gifts of the Holy Spirit available today. All of the gifts of the Spirit have not been in existance since the last apostle died and there are NO 2,000 year old apostles still alive today.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 22, 2003.


That would certainly shoot down the power of absolution by priests and the Pope's status. So, how do we know that charisms are terminated?

rod..

..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2003.


rod,

They are a gift from God, the Holy Spirit distributes them as he wishes. No one, that includes Kevin, can tell God what gifts he cannot give.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 22, 2003.


We know the gifts are terminated because that is exactly what God said would happen. Please see 1 Cor. 13:10-13.

If the gifts of the Spirit are still available today, then I challenge you to prove it!!!

Priests have NO power to forgive sin, ONLY God has this power. Mark 2:7 states, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 22, 2003.


"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Tell me Kevin, when has the Lord Jesus Christ Returned?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 22, 2003.



10   But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11   When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12   For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13   And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2003.


David,

Please tell me how the phrase "that which is perfect" can refer to Jesus Christ when He is specifically named every where else except in this verse???

While you are at it, please also explain how "hope" will continue as stated in 1 Cor. 13:13 especially when Romans 8:24 states, "but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?"

For your information: Spiritual gifts were ONLY given by 2 ways, 1. Through baptism of the Holy Spirit or 2. Through the laying on of the apostles hands. Holy Spirit baptism doesn't exist today, and there are no more apostles. Spiritual gifts were for the church in its infancy. They were called childish things that would be put away when the church became mature. Paul says in 1 Cor. 13:11, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child...But when I became a man (mature) I put away childish things". Speaking of the miraculous gifts, that in verse 8 "will vanish away" and in verse 9 "will be done away". The only way the church could become complete (mature) was through ALL Scripture . (2 Tim. 3:16-17). The complete (perfect) law of liberty. (Jas. 1:25). In the years following the establishment of the church, the will of God had not been fully revealed, written and confirmed by miracles. It was yet in part!!! The sole purpose of miracles was to CONFIRM the newly revealed work. (John 20:30-31).

Once all scripture was given by inspiration of God, confirmed and written, it became the COMPLETE (PERFECT) Law of Liberty, able to make the man of God Perfect (Complete), thoroughly furnished unto every good work. (2 Tim. 3:17). Since we now have that whic is "perfect" (1 Cor. 3:10), that which is Complete Mature, Confirmed word of God, in which are "all things that pertain to life and Godliness" and by which we can become Complete (Mature) as Christians, there remains NO NEED for gifts today. They have served the purpose for which they were intended!!!

Those who claim Holy Spirit baptism and miraculous gifts today obviously do so WITHOUT biblical support. They are PRETENDERS and FALSE CLAIMANTS of something that DOES NOT EXIST. They knowing or unknowingly arrogantly place themselves on an equality with the apostles. God forbid that we should be found guilty of such.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 22, 2003.


You all aren't gonna believe this (well, you might). I was thinking about the Apostles and the charisms they received. I had discussed this thought with a close friend (Pentecostal). What I shared with him was that 1) the Apostles had these charisms and 2) the Apostles died and 3) what of those charisms? I don't know. Can those charisms be handed down by the Apostles or not? I thought that it was only the Holy Spirit who could give those charisms. Here I am with my heretical ways.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2003.


rod,

The gifts of the Spirit could ONLY be given by 1. Baptism in the Holy Spirit - which does not exist any more, and 2. By the laying on of the Apostles hands - and there are no more apostles living today.

Jesus said in Mark 16:17-18, "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

This was the reason they were given, "And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen." (Mark 16:20).

The word has been CONFIRMED, so there is NO reason for any gifts of the Spirit to be available today.

If the gifts of the Spirit are still available today, please explain why none of the things spoken of in Mark 16:17-18 are done by those who believe today???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 23, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

I have seen the "laying of hands" and the recovery of people with severe illness/conditions as a result of the healing of "hands". Is this a coincidence or a faith healing? Or, is this a result of prayer? It can be confusing making heads or tails of all of this.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2003.



David is right, Kevin is wrong!

That which is "Perfect" shall come again. His name is Jesus. Until then, we "see through a glass darkly."

Gail

P.S. Like Paul, I say "I wish that ye all spoke in tongues even as I, but rather that ye LOVE."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 23, 2003.


Gail wrote, "David is right, Kevin is wrong!

Once again, Gail does NOT offer any proof of her accusation that I am wrong instead she merely asserts this without giving any substance to her quote.

All she can write is, "That which is "Perfect" shall come again. His name is Jesus. Until then, we "see through a glass darkly."

I am still waiting for someone to tell me when Jesus was EVER referred to or referenced as a "THAT" anywhere in the word of God except in this one sentence???

Yes Gail, Paul refers to "that which is perfect". The word "perfect" means complete or whole. At the time Paul wrote, the revelation from God was not in its final written form. Now it is complete.

"That which is perfect" (the New Testament) has come and that which was "in part" (miraculous gifts) has been done away. So we can see that Paul's inspired prediction has come true.

So, Gail's statement that "David is right, Kevin is wrong!" is NOT the truth according to the word of God!!!

rod,

Yes, you may have seen "the "laying of hands" and the recovery of people with severe illness/conditions as a result of the healing of "hands"."

We all know that the miracles of raising the dead have ceased. NONE HAVE EVER SEEN AND VERIFIED SUCH A THING in our day. Nor has anyone done any genuine miracles today and every time we try to get someone to demonstrate that they have such powers they come back with nothing but excuses. The same goes with this so called "laying on of hands". Please give me an example of where anyone has ever done this consistently since the time of the apostles? If these gifts were still available today, we would be seeing those who believe do EXACTLY what Jesus stated in Mark 16:17-18.

Please check out this website: Miracles

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 23, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

I'm not exactly sure that I am disagreeing with you. I've been called a "Doubting Thomas"; I wouldn't want to mess this tradition up. I have seen somethings that could be explained with simple logic. Somethings are too puzzling for me to figure out.

rod..

..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2003.


rod,

If the gifts of the Holy Spirit were available today, "gifts of healing" etc, don't you think that those who used them would have multitudes of people following them and wanting them to use their powers???

There are NO examples anywhere in the world today where this is the case.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 23, 2003.


Kevin,

Just because someone misuses something or fakes it doesn't make it unbiblical. So then, should we give up on Christianity just because someone called themselves a Christian and kill dozens of people?

And also, it's just plain arrogant to say that the (denomination of) Church of Christ is "the one true church". I don't know how you can say the true church is "the body of believers" if you do not believe this. To you, the true church is only made up of (denomination) Church of Christ members.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.



And yes Kevin, obeying the gospel is important. But whos' gospel are you obeying? Satans?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 23, 2003.

Those miracles edify God, not man. This could be why we can't go around following such men. rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

Here is an event from a very reliable source:

A distant friend was layed up in the hospital suffering bad symptoms of diabetes. My friend was in bad shape and doctors were pretty much held hostage by time and the conditions of the disease. The doctors were hopeless or, at the very least, stumped as to what else they could do.

My very good friend and his pastor friend made a visit. They became very aware of the situation and then asked the nurses to please exit the room. My friend and pastor then proceded with prayer and "placing of the hands". Then miraculously, the symptoms were removed, not by these two faithful people. The prayer and "hands" showed a work of faith. God made the healing. This "miracle" only proves that God hears our prayers and heals the sick.

"Guitarman-Singer", if you see this post, will you make some comments?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.


Some are saying that the charisms no longer exist. They were non-existent when the Apostle finished their mission. Well, we were left with certain charisms.

rod

p.s. "layed" should have been "laid", but what do I know?

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.


Where in the Bible does it state that "that which is perfect" refers to the New Testament. Once again, Kevin, you simply pour your own meanings into the text. Big deal . . . you're simply stating what you "think."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 24, 2003.


Hey Rod, Great point! What charisms are we left with? I guess it's up to Kevin to decide!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 24, 2003.


Gail writes, "Where in the Bible does it state that "that which is perfect" refers to the New Testament. Once again, Kevin, you simply pour your own meanings into the text. Big deal . . . you're simply stating what you "think."

I explained what this passage means and I challenge you to prove otherwise. If what I said is not correct, then please correct me. If not, then once again you make an accusation with NO proof offered.

Once again after you state that I pour my own meanings into the text, then you poke fun at what I have written and don't even bother to prove where I am wrong. This is typical of folks who really don't know what they are talking about especially when they resort to insults to people who have proven them wrong on a certain subject.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 24, 2003.


David,

You wrote, "Just because someone misuses something or fakes it doesn't make it unbiblical."

If it is NOT in accordance with the word of God, i.e. spiritual gifts, then it is UNBIBLICAL.

You wrote, "So then, should we give up on Christianity just because someone called themselves a Christian and kill dozens of people?"

I do not know where this comment came from, but this has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing.

You wrote, "And also, it's just plain arrogant to say that the (denomination of) Church of Christ is "the one true church". I don't know how you can say the true church is "the body of believers" if you do not believe this. To you, the true church is only made up of (denomination) Church of Christ members."

Belief of and OBEDIENCE to the Word of God is the difference between the church of Christ and the denominational world. Since the church for which Christ died (Acts 20:28) is NOT a denomination, as David FALSELY CHARGES and since God adds the saved to the church (Acts 2:47), and since all the saved are in the church, which is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:21-23), it is correct to say, "We are Christians only, and the only Christians."

This claim is neither bigoted nor prejudicial. It is, on the other hand, respectful of truth (John 8:32). To imply that we are not the only Christians is to imply that there are Christians in all churches. To believe this, one would have to believe that one church is as good as another; and to believe this, one would have to deny that the Lord has only one church. The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:1-4), and "Christians only" means that we are not a part of the denominational world with its names, creeds, and doctrines.

David wrote, "And yes Kevin, obeying the gospel is important. But whos' gospel are you obeying? Satans?"

No David, I am not obeying Satan's gospel as you once again FALSELY CHARGE. If this is the case, then I challenge you to prove this from the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 24, 2003.


Kevin,

I am in the middle of this. Who should I believe? You or Gail? Both of you don't agree on much, and claim there church is not a denomination? (Which I can't believe you guys can say something like that because it is a sect and denomination; Also, don't hide the fact that it is a denomination by using a lower case "c".

Ok, while we're all at it, I guess Assemblies of God is not a denomination.

Also, Who should the newcomer believe when we have 3 different people who don't agree with each other? And each start claiming that their church is "the one true church" and reject that their building and organization is a denomination. Kevin, the Church of Christ (denomination of course) is an organization. Jesus Christ did not establish a organization; The Real Church of Jesus Christ is not the Catholic/AoG/Churches of Christ(denomination of) churches.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.


I think that we all have to seriously consider the original motives of the Catholic Church, like it or not. I can clearly understand two motives: to bring the world into the Body of Christ, to bring all sects into one universal/catholic church. When seen in this light, the Catholic Church will be accused of bringing in many "pagan" practices/beliefs into the doctrine. It would seem logical to make such an observation. I am tired of that argument and I could spend my entire life proving or disproving such an accusation about "paganism" in the Church. I think my life would be better lived by finding what the Church has done in saving souls. Can a New Age thinker or Atheist enter the Church today and find Salvation? Isn't this the better question for all of us as we sit in the building of our choice? We should ask our doctrine those seemingly impossible questions for hard, true, and empiracle answers. I'm talking about those answers that are so true we don't need to prove them to believe.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.


rod,

The Roman Church does not save souls. It is one of Satans greatest creations, and is fooling people into thinking they have the real Christ. Remember, Satan comes to Kill, Steal, and Destroy. Everyday he tempts people, and fools people into thinking that "good" people go to heaven, or Muslims are saved. (Yes, it's true. Muslims aren't saved and "Good" people won't go to heaven unless they have accepted Christ)

These people Satan decieves are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.

rod,

Yes Catholicism is mixed with paganism. When Constantine first created the Catholic church in AD 300's people held on to their pagan traditions. Christmas and Easter are pagan.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.


David,

You should definitely NOT believe Kevin, but believe what God has said in His word. Faith doesn't come from Kevin, but from the word of God. If what I have stated is contrary to what God has said in His word, then I am teaching false doctrine and are doing exactly as 2 John 9 states. If what I am teaching is in accordance with God's word, then I am merely abiding IN God's word for Jesus stated in John 8:31-32, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

We are admonished to "test the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:2-3 tells us, "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

I have made this same confession and this is EXACTLY the same confession as the Ethiopian Eunuch made in Acts 8:37, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

Those people who tell you that you can say a prayer and this is the same as confession are truly IGNORANT of the word of God. Catholics teach many things that are NOT in accordance with the word of God and are to be rejected as FALSE DOCTRINE.

If my congregation is a denomination, then I challenge you to prove it. Just because I use a lower case "c" when I type the word "church" really does not have any bearing on whether or not my church is a denomination (because it is not), it is personal preference. It really does not matter if the letter c in the word church is capitalized or not, so why make a big deal of it?

David, Jesus DID establish HIS CHURCH, and NOT an organization. There were many different names used to describe the church, but we choose to identify our Church after Jesus who did in fact establish His Church for this name honors Him.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 24, 2003.


You know, I've spent a lot of time researching pre-Christianity. It is amazing to learn about early man and his beliefs. The Bible teaches us to release any trust in man's thinking and wisdom, why? Those early systems of worship and belief were primitive and motivated by survival, not in the motivation of eternal life with God. But, you know what? Some of those rituals could have developed into the worship by modern man. The Sun--The Bringer of Life--The Creator--The Light--The God--etc. The early record of the Great Flood by Gilgamesh (sp?) pre-dates Noah's Great Flood. The Pyramids record man's quest for eternity and the reach for God. The animal and human sacrifices could/did set the standard in making offerings to God. The whole concept of weighing our sins was recorded by the Egyptians before the prophecies of the Messiah. The Gnostics were destroyed because their advanced thinking of the "divinity of man" and the universe was too mind boggling and heretical and could destroy one's belief in the "true" theology. Look hard at those modern day religous practices: baptism, confession, prayer, penance, sacrifice. Look at the concepts of the spirit, heaven, miracles, grace, propitiation. We could find these things in the early beliefs of pre-Christianity. Are we simply perpetuating the same human beliefs in a different time? Or, are we living in faith of truth in God? So, when the Church is criticized for their misunderstood doctrine, can we also criticize Christianity or all religions by the same measuring stick? Either God is real or man can tell some really amazing stories. I think it best to fear God and believe, believe, belie

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

rod,

I will say it again and again. Christianity is NOT a RELIGION. Religion comes from the Devil. Christianity is a personal experience, getting to know the Lord Jesus Christ.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.


Many of the things you have said about the church not being a building has been asserted by the Gnostics, too. They didn't believe that Gnosticism was a religion either. They believed that it was a connection with God. They worshipped where they please; the setting was irrelevant. The church existed in the person. God existed in the person. The material word was not reality; the mind that experienced the material world made the world reality. Material did not mean things we buy or get for pleasure or vice. Material meant what everything in the universe was supposedly made of. Eventually, this type of thinking made mortal men immortal, which would then make them like God and then into god.

I wrote an essay many years ago that put my own theology on record. I was shocked to learn that my beliefs were "Gnostic". I have since changed my views and beliefs. There is only one God.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.


rod,

I am not talking about Gnosticism. I am talking about Christianity.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 25, 2003.


Yes. But, can you see the Gnostic tendencies in some Christian doctrines?

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.


Actually, David, false and pure "religion" is described in James 1:26: "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted by the world."

Here we see "false religion" contrasted with "pure religion." Religion that is vain, worthless and dead, is a religion that does not produce a changed heart, because "out of the heart the mouth speaks." So if a mouth contains an unbridled tongue it is because the heart has not changed. But religion is active and living, or pure, if it is produces charitable behavior provoked by the love of God.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), September 27, 2003.


Kevin wrote:"If the gifts of the Holy Spirit were available today, "gifts of healing" etc, don't you think that those who used them would have multitudes of people following them and wanting them to use their powers??? "

This sure has happened in 20th Century evangelism. Do you remember Oral Roberts and those others. I can't remember their names, only faces and deeds. The hordes they accumulated.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 30, 2003.


rod,

Those people who were part of the hordes, were they healed??? Yes or No???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 30, 2003.


I think that a can of worms has been opened up.

Well, it has been documented by the Catholic Church that those who have made a pilgrimage to Lourdes at the site of the Virgin Mary sitings have been healed. Also, I'm sure that if Oral Roberts is gonna heal somebody, by gosh darn it, they better be healed; the cameras were rolling, gosh darn!

rod..

..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 01, 2003.


"Well, it has been documented by the Catholic Church that those who have made a pilgrimage to Lourdes at the site of the Virgin Mary sitings have been healed."

In the words of a famous comedian, "Yeah right"!!!

And if you believe that documentation from the Catholic Church, then I have some land for sale for you in Timbuktu that you might be interested in purchasing!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 01, 2003.


Kevin, How can thousands of people be refuted? How can thousands of people be hidden? The issue is not the Catholic Church and their documentation. The issue is the thousands of people, whom are not necessarily Catholic, who have experienced the healings. Forget the Catholic Church for a moment and focus on the healings. I am not putting focus on the Church; I'm putting focus on the thousands of people. What are you gonna do? Tell each one to hush up and not make their claims? Have them walk away in silents back to their homes? Move along people; there's nothing to see here!

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 02, 2003.


rod,

Has everyone who went to Lourdes been healed of their afflictions??? If not, then the Catholic Church is just using these false claims of miracles to try to justify the fact that they are the Church of Christ and NOTHING could be further from the truth.

The Pope, who is the man of sin as the Apostle Paul described him in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The Pope claims to take the place of God on earth. (This is EXACTLY what this verse above states).

Paul continues in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

The mystery of "lawlessness" was this as stated by Paul in Acts 20:29-30, "For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

This is EXACTLY what happened with the eldership as they moved to "draw away the disciples after themselves" and eventually ended up with ONE elder (or bishop), the Pope.

The force that was "restraining" was the Roman Empire. The pope did NOT come into power UNTIL the Roman Empire was overthrown. Paul continued his description of the Pope in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

rod, you "believe the lie" because you have been DECEIVED. Don't you think that if this so called "healing water" of Lourdes were actually true, that untold millions of people would be there to be healed??? If the power of God were ACTUALLY at work, those who went there and bathed or dipped in this water would ALL be healed with NO exceptions. Think about it...

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 02, 2003.


Kevin. I have never been to Paris. I think that considering my health issues and the "miracle waters" of Lourdes, I would have already made a pilgrimage to Lourdes for my cures. Would this answer your question?

I am the greatest skeptic ever to walk the earth, but I still do wonder about the millions of people who have made the journey to Lourdes. Some have been cured. I would prefer to ask them how they feel about the miracles of faith healing, wouldn't you?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 02, 2003.


rod,

If everyone who went to Lourdes were cured, then you could say that this was "of God" and since this is NOT the case, the argument that this is "of God" is NOT true but is another "fabrication" of the Catholic Church to try to establish their validity as the true church of Christ.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 03, 2003.


Have you experienced a miracle faith healing at your church, then? Or, do you simple refuse to consider any faith healing in any church as being not of God, if not of God, but of Satan? Because there is no in-between, it is either God or Satan.

I have seen things in my life.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.


rod,

The ONLY thing I have a problem with is the Catholic Church trying to pawn off these FAKE healings as a sign that they are the true Church of Christ and this is NOT true.

I did NOT say that God does not work providentially for there are many things (those who are miraculously cured etc.) that are beyond our understanding.

God said in James 5:15, "And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

I do NOT question those who claim that they have been healed by faith, I question those who claim that they have the power to heal the sick. If they had this power, they would be able to heal 100% of the time with NO exceptions.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 03, 2003.


I believe with all of my strength, heart, and thought that all miracles, which include the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are real and true miracles that prove God's love for us. I can never say or believe that it proves any church, doctrine, or man. My statements, I hope, are never to imply anything other than what I believe. Plain and simple...

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 03, 2003.


rod,

You wrote, "I believe with all of my strength, heart, and thought that all miracles, which include the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are real and true miracles that prove God's love for us. I can never say or believe that it proves any church, doctrine, or man. My statements, I hope, are never to imply anything other than what I believe. Plain and simple..."

Then I take it that you believe that ALL of the supposed miracles done by the Catholic Church in the name of God are true. If this is the case, then you have been DECEIVED, plain and simple...

If this is also true then you by your own admission must also believe that those who are in cults such as Jim Jones, David Koresh and others who claim to be able to work miracles in the name of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 04, 2003.


NOT necessarily. Even the Catholic Church does not accept all miracles as being from God.

Kresh and Jim Jones, and others, did they perform "actual" miracles? I doubt it. We shall know them by their fruits, yes?

We may witness a miracle and later see some false-ness connected to it; we then will know that it is not from God. Perhaps I should have worded my statement a different way? rod..

..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 04, 2003.


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