Cults In General.

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I found this web site about cults. American Religion. Org

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003

Answers

What is a cult?

http://www.americanreligion.org/cultwtch/whatis.html

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.


rod,

In your link above "what is a cult", It states the following:

"The Christian approach to cults would include every group which has departed from orthodox Christianity (such as the Church of Christ"

Let's see if that is true: IS THE CHURCH OF CHRIST A CULT? It is not uncommon for Christians -- defined here as those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible -- to be accused of various evils. Verbal persecution of Christians has existed since the days of ancient Rome, and will continue to exist until the second coming. In fact, Christ himself was verbally persecuted, Matt. 11:19, and "a disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master" (Matt. 10:24). If Christ was accused of evil, so will be His disciples. Often, verbal persecution of Christians is little more than name-calling, but every once in a while very serious accusations are made which must be addressed and acquitted. One such charge is the claim that the church of Christ is a cult. The church of Christ is here defined as the group of all Christians.

The seriousness of the cult charge stems from the fact that cults are destructive, harmful, deceptive, and inherently false religions. Moreover, such a charge indicts not only the individual Christian on whom the accusation is thrown, but also all Christians everywhere. Therefore, it is essential that Christians be able to defend the truth that the church of Christ is not at all a cult.

A cult is generally defined as any religious group which has specific practices, beliefs, or organizational structures which control its members through dishonest, deceptive, extreme, or invasive methods. It is not the case that any group which contradicts traditional Roman Catholic or Protestant beliefs is inherently a cult, as this assumes Roman Catholicism or Protestantism to be the sources of all truth. As the definition indicates, cults are dangerous, harmful, and clearly not according to the teachings of Jesus Christ. Christ teaches, "love your enemies" (Matt. 5:44), not "control your neighbors through dishonest means." Therefore, any group which is a cult is inherently false and to be avoided. If the church of Christ were a cult, then all members should leave it immediately. However, if it can be demonstrated that the church of Christ is not a cult, then those who make such an accusation are slanderers.

There are many traits which most cults have in common to some degree. These identifying characteristics are universal in cults and are all negative and contrary to the teachings of Christ. First, cults have a single, human leader to whom all devotion is pledged. Secondly, cults are isolationist to an extreme degree. Thirdly, cult proselytizing methods are dishonest, unfair, manipulative, deceptive, invasive, and are designed to prey upon people with weak psychological profiles. Fourthly, cults practice an extreme and invasive form of financial control over their members. Fifthly, cults exercise an extreme and invasive control over most other areas of their members? lives, especially in the areas of dating, marriage, work, and social life. Sixth, cults require members to accept and believe doctrines which are based not on evidence, reason, and open thought and discussion, but rather on the unfounded claims of a human being. Often, these doctrines are very bizarre. Seventhly, cults make it extremely difficult for members to leave the cult, even to the point of threatening violence and stalking. Eighthly, cults require excessive amounts of their members? time, often invasively pervading every aspect of their members' lives to the point that members cannot carry out basic human activities. Finally, cults use psychological, manipulative, mind-control tactics in their affairs, and psychologically intimidate their members in a negative manner. There may be other defining traits of cults which are not included in this list, but these will serve as a working definition.

According to Bob Larson is "Larson?s New Book of Cults," some modern cults are Christian Science, Mormonism, Jehovah?s Witnesses, and Worldwide Church of God (Armstrongism). Some other extreme examples are the Branch Davidians, who, under David Koresh's leadership, recently met their demise in a bloody standoff with U.S. federal agents; Heaven's Gate, who recently committed mass suicide in the belief that a spaceship in the tail of the Hale-Bop comet would transport them to paradise; and the Moonies, who believe that their founder, Sun Yung Moon, and his wife, are the perfect human couple. The author of this article himself was even approached in Washington Square in New York City by two cult members who, along with their leader, proceeded to attempt conversion by extremely pervasive suggestion. Fortunately, the author recognized the methods and refused to attend a meeting.

Based then on the proper definition of cults, is the church of Christ a cult? There may be denominational religious groups which call themselves "The Church of Christ" or who use that phrase in their name, but the author is not part of any such group and will never be. The church of Christ refers to the group of Christ's people, or Christians. A comparison of the church of Christ with the defining traits of cults will vindicate the church from the false charge of culthood (please refer to the nine-point list above).

The church of Christ has no single human leader. Rather, it follows Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who performed miracles and rose from the dead to prove that He was more than a human. In fact, human leaders are shunned in the church of Christ, except for the biblical concept of elders.

The church of Christ is not isolationist. Though the Bible teaches Christians to be separate from the world in the sense of not joining the world in sin, 2 Cor. 6:17, it also teaches that Christians are to be shining lights to the world, Matt. 5:14. Christians cannot be shining lights if they isolate themselves and avoid social contact with non-Christians. Rather, they should befriend as many people as possible in the hopes of acting as good influences.

The church of Christ does not practice dishonest or manipulative preaching techniques. The author being an evangelist himself, it can be safely stated that preachers in the church of Christ insist on open, honest discussion, based on the Bible, and invite any and all to discuss any biblical topic freely, even if there is disagreement.

The church of Christ does not control its members' finances. The only teaching of financial contribution to the church is that which is taught in the Bible: members are to freely, generously, and cheerfully give what they deem fit to God in the weekly collection, 2 Cor. 9:7; 1 Cor. 16:1. Usually, no one knows how much a member gives expect that member himself, and God.

The church of Christ does not control every area of its members' lives. Though the Bible teaches that Christians are to live godly and avoid sin, 1 Pet. 4:1-6, and that it is certainly wiser for Christians to date and marry other Christians, 2 Cor. 6:14, Christians do not act as spies and stalkers to one another. As long as his actions are Godly and scriptural, a Christian may spend his time as he pleases.

The church of Christ does not create bizarre doctrines without evidence and then force members to believe them. Rather, gospel preachers reason soundly, based on textual, historical, logical, archaeological, scientific, and physical evidence that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The author personally has a section of his library entirely devoted to such proofs.

The church of Christ does not harass, threaten, or stalk members who leave. Though the reprobate Christian is not right with God, Heb. 6:1-8, and is very much missed out of love, and though Christians try to encourage him to return and show him God?s love and grace, no one is ever physically or violently prevented from leaving. Members are free to quit the church, although there are spiritual consequences for such a decision.

The church of Christ does not take all of its members' time and prevent them from doing anything else. Christians recognize that people have to work, 1 Tim. 5:8; relax, spend time with their families; etc. Though the Bible teaches Christians to attend assemblies, Heb. 10:24-25, and though the occasional gospel meeting will usually require attendance on a few week nights, no member is controlled and not allowed to carry out normal human activity. The true Christian should show his faith every day in everything that he does.

Finally, the church of Christ does not use negative, psychological manipulation and mind-control to intimidate its members. The manner in which the author preaches, and the manner of all faithful evangelists, is this: the gospel is set forth very straightforwardly in love. A choice of action is biblically given, the spiritual consequences of both obedience and disobedience are stated, and the listener is invited to respond to God, Acts 2:1-38. If there are any gospel preachers who do otherwise, they are wrong, and need to change.

It has been amply demonstrated that, according to the standard definition of cults, the church of Christ is emphatically not a cult. Out of nine common defining characteristics of cults, the church of Christ does not even practice one. The church of Christ is not a manipulative, harmful, brainwashed, deceptive, man-made organization. Rather, it is a group of sincere Christians who are trying their best to serve God, to love their fellow man, and to go to heaven when this life is over. Anyone who charges otherwise is ignoring the evidence and committing slander.

--Matthew R. Miller via Truth Magazine, Jan. 20, 2000

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 15, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

It seems that I have two understandings for the "cult" label. 1) any religious group that has left the Catholic Church and 2) those really freaky religious groups that brain wash their congregation into doing absolutely fanatical things contrary to God's teachings.

I'm not sure what David is trying to get at with his "cult" callings. I do know that I have been involved in the benign form of "cult" groups, because they were not Catholic. As far as your Church of Christ is concerned, I haven't picked up on any malignant "cult" tendencies. Doctrinal differences does not make for freakish cults; freakish doctrines that have taken a left turn into "la la land" away from Scriptures would be something to beware of .

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 15, 2003.


rod,

Your understanding of a cult as "1) any religious group that has left the Catholic Church" CANNOT be true because 1) the Catholic Church has NEVER been the true church of Christ and 2) NOR will it ever be such because this Church has been and is far removed from the faith that was once delivered to the saints.

A close look at Catholic doctrines will tell any seeker of the truth that many of their doctrines (Catholic) CANNOT be found in the word of God so this CANNOT be the true church of Christ. One is supposed to take their (the Pope's) word for it that it is the truth instead of God's word.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 17, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

Your statement: "One is supposed to take their (the Pope's) word for it that it is the truth instead of God's word. "

This is the statement that gets me in big trouble with the Church.

I am spending an abundant amount of research into the Catholic Church, because I truly want to understand the "dogma" of the Church. In the context of the early Church, I can understand the "cult" meanings. The early Church had to combat with many heretical groups. Today, there are some authors who make claims that Christianity has its beginnings based on Gnosticism. I can see some similiarities, but I can also see the blasphemies towards Christianity--God.

What I want answered is this:

Is the Catholic Church correct?
Is the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
Is the Catholic Church all "binding" of our souls for Salvation?
Is there proof in any church doctrine?

Now, I am a heretic by asking these questions; a true Catholic would have no need for asking these questions. But, I want to do the right thing. When the claim is made that a church is the "One and Only True Church of God", wouldn't you want to be included in the true Church? I would.

I read Scriptures and read both Protestant and Catholic understandings of those Scriptures. I also read the historical backgrounds of both interpretations. I do not want to be fooled by anyone, even by me. I certainly don't want to fry in hell. So, I want the truth. That truth can be very difficult to find and understand, because both sides make extremely convincing arguments for their beliefs.

So, some call me "Catholic" and others call me "Protestant".

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 17, 2003.



Is the Catholic Church correct?

No.

Is the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit?

No.

Is the Catholic Church all "binding" of our souls for Salvation?

No, Salvation is found only in the True Church of Jesus Christ.

Is there proof in any church doctrine?

Yes there is, in the bible.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 17, 2003.


David answers:

Is there proof in any church doctrine?
Yes there is, in the bible.

Well, I could agree, but there is more to this question than meets the eye.
1. "any" church doctrine causes us to include many doctrines, but there is only one doctrine.
2. the proof would be there in the Bible, but because it demands a human interpretation, the next question would be "who's interpretation would we accept?".
3. the next problem would be that your answere, David, is from the Protestant perspective and not the Catholic perspective. Why would this be an issue? Because, historically, the Catholic Church has its claim to bringing forth the inspired Gospel to the world through tradition. This fact is very difficult to overlook or ignore.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 17, 2003.


rod,

Is the Catholic Church correct?

NO, and this link explains why: Catholicism and Scripture: The Roman Catholic Church Compared to the bible

Is the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit?

NO, and this website explains why: The Mission of the Holy Spirit

Is the Catholic Church all "binding" of our souls for Salvation?

No, and this website explains why: The Holy Spirit Converts one to Christ by the Word of God

Is there proof in any church doctrine?

Yes, please check out this web site: Principles of Interpretation: The Expansion Concept

Please also check out these websites:

The Establishment of the church of Christ

Identifying the church of the New Testament

Is Christian Worship Regulated by New Testament Law?

The Sect Everywhere Spoken Against

Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

Testing the Spirits

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 18, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

There was a time when "heretics" were burned at the stake.

I've sent you an email. I hope you don't mind.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


rod,

Yea, and by whom were these "heretics" burned by? The Romanists.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.



Yes, the Church did some of that burning. Those heretics were not only heretics towards the Church, but to Christianity as a whole. It was much like today's heretics--those cults we are aware of.

I mean the cults that are way out there in "la la land".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


Is the Roman Catholic Church the One True Church? No. Check these sites out. The One True Church or Understanding Roman Catholicism

Other links that you might find interesting:

On Whom Is The Church Founded?

How sinful we really are?

How should I witness to someone who belongs to a denomination, who I suspect isn’t trusting the Savior?

Eternal Security

Salvation: What it means to be a Christian

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.


I better send you an email too, David.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


Here is the flip side to some of those links you sent me , David.

Jack Chick Publications

The bucket is a little bit holie.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


rod,

The Devil works everyday to try too seperate us from God. He comes to steal and destory. Of couse the Devil is online now, and publishing articles against the simple gospel of God. He attacks the messengers, causes confusion. So Jack Chick must be wrong because a website says he's wrong? How about reading the stuff he writes. Jack Chick doesn't make his money by being "anti-catholic", only a few of his tracts are "anti-catholic".

And of course, the biased website you sent me too is Catholic. The only reason all those publications are labeled that way. People don't like to hear "anti-anything". They hear "anti" and they see it in a negative way.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.



Uh, people...

I cannot edify my faith in God through malice, hatred, half-truths, lies, conspiracies, or evil. I must search for pure truth motivated by pure truth in order to build upon those truths for a closer walk with God.

Sick ......I mean Chick Publications cannot be trusted in my view. The Jesuits played a role in the Lincoln assasination, huh?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


Look, I get turned off at my church service when the Catholic Church starts getting bashed (or any other religous group). I would prefer that the truth stand on its own. Yes, we do have to make comparisons and contrasts in order to filter out the good from the bad. I do try to keep a clean respectful tone in my critiques and sometimes I fail. But, to make an industry of bashing is not quite right, yes?

I may know what is wrong with a doctrine, but tell me what is right. Tell me where the most right can be found, even if a little wrong may tag along for the ride. I suspect that every doctrine will be flawed, because man is flawed and can never get perfection established on earth. God's teachings are perfection, yes.

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


rod,

Do you even believe in the Devil? Why is it so hard for people to understand that Satan is real. He and his demons are constantly trying to get us to stray away from the faith.

Wolves in sheep’s clothing, rod.

That means the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" is not protected against Satan and his demons. There are only two views of history rod, accidental and conspiracies. Do you believe things "just happen" or that everything happens for a reason?

Satan is the King of this Earth; we are not in some land of milk and honey.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.


Satan and Hell do exist and I do believe that they do. I see evidence of his handy work. I see the motives and actions of everyday people in everyday situations. Many people walk around godless ( or should I say "God-less" from their minds and hearts). I have to live the repercussions of their evilness everyday, as I'm sure you do to. No, this isn't the land of milk and honey.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


But, it is the land of milk and honey when we compare our land to the other lands. We do live a better physical life, but as far as our spiritual lives are concerned, we don't really show what we preach. I do try and I'm sure many here do too.

(So, you've read my other posts in the Catholic Forum?)

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


Do you want to know what Satan's agenda is? To Kill, Steal, and Destroy.

I can't stand to read the heresy in the Catholic forum. If I should post something Satan would have it deleted.

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Revelation 12:9)

Satan has twisted God's word, and now has people thinking they are saved. God's plan of salvation is simple, believe.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.


Has Jack Sick...I mean Chick infiltrated my family's lives? Yes.
I have sitting right in front of my keyboard one of his comic book publications, "The Empty Tomb". So, David, I have read some of his "stuff". But, I read it with caution; I teach my family the Scriptures. It is up to me to make sure that my family is being guided in the true Gospel. I question all and double check all.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


Hatred? rod, you do not know what "hatred" is. Not telling someone the truth and letting them burn in hell is hatred. Prove to me that Chick Pub. is just "Catholic Bashing" for money. Hundreds and possibly thousands have turned to the Real Jesus Christ because of this man's work.

Show me rod, what "misconceptions" does Mr. Chick have about Catholicism?

The truth hurts rod, the World is Our sword. Jesus offended the Pharisees, but I guess you'll view that as "Pharisee Bashing"

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.


rod, tell me. What saves us?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), September 18, 2003.

My posts have always been written to dig out the truth. I hope that, as people read them, they can see my motives in each of my questions and answers. Just because an answer is given does not mean that the answer is accepted as truth. Just because I give a thief a ride in my truck doesn't mean we are going on a joy ride, we aren't. But, sometimes I can get a whole new understanding from those answers.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


"rod, tell me. What saves us? "

Faith in Jesus as our Saviour. Or, as the Protestants say, "...my personal Saviour...".

John 3:16 is a great start! Yes, "start". There is more as we grow in faith.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


The Pharisees were stuck in their self-righteousness. They could not see beyond their Law. It is true that Christ did not come to destroy. Evidence of this can be found in the existence of the Pharisees' Laws. Christ did not destroy the Pharisees, but because of the Pharisees lack of faith/conversion they found their own destruction. The Jewish laws still exist.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2003.


rod,

We are saved by many things, and NOT by Faith ONLY as David would have you believe. Here is a list of what saves:

1. The Word of God - James 1:21 2. The Gospel - Romans 1:16 3. The Blood of Christ - Hebrews 9:14 4. The Death of Christ - Romans 5:10 5. Heeding the Doctrine of God - 1 Timothy 4:16 6. Faith - John 3:16 7. Repentance - Luke 13:3 8. Confession - Romans 10:10 9. Baptism - Mark 16:16 10. Works - James 2:24; Titus 2:7 11. The Mercy of God - Titus 3:4-5 12. Hope - Romans 8:24 13. Grace - Ephesians 2:8

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 19, 2003.


Thanks Kevin.

I shall spend study time on those references you've provided.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2003.


Hi Kevin.

I have moved your "Salvation List" to a new thread: click here.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2003.


rod,

Great! Hopefully there will be some who will view that list and realize that those who state that one is saved by Faith ONLY are NOT teaching the truth according to the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 20, 2003.


Why do I constantly questions and double check those answers? Read the following:

We are not too surprised then, to find even the “apostle of love” instructing his beloved children “believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world” (1 Jn. 4:1).

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2003.


I am a Pentecostal pastor. We all like to think that our church is the "True Church". I disagree with some of the Catholic beliefs. Such as going to the priest for forgiveness. I believe that you should ask Jesus and only Jesus to forgive you. I don't believe that 50 Hail Mary's is going to save your soul from going to hell. At least I haven't read it anywhere in the bible. What I am saying is that there will be people of the catholic denomination go to heaven. Some pentecostal people will go to hell. The bible (kjv) says there will people saying "Lord, Lord, did I not cast demons out in your name?" (not the exact scripture), God will then answer, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity." It says that 2 would be in the field. One will be taken and 1 will be left. I believe that there are ggood christians in every religion (BESIDES CULTS). I believe that the Catholics do need a refreshing of the Holy Spirit and do away with the homosexuals they have for priests that are literally raping our children (GODS' CHILDREN), srtop protectind them, moving them from church to church, and turn them over to the authorities as SOON as it is reported!

-- Pastor Darrell Crider (wdcrider35@aol.com), June 29, 2004.

Welcome to the forum Pastor.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.

Thank you! Here's a letter that you all may be interested in reading from a former catholic: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/openltr.htm

GOD BLESS!

-- Pastor Darrell Crider (wdcrider35@aolo.com), June 29, 2004.


Hi Pastor.

I too don't share some beliefs, for example:

I don't believe that Pentecostals must exhibit speaking in tongues and performing violent body tremors to prove they have the Holy Spirit in them.

Compare my opinion with your opinion on Hail Mary prayers Catholics do. I hope you get my point.

Uh.....welcome to this forum.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


Pastor Crider

It would be best if you made your comments with acute accuracy of information. Exactly, how many homosexual priest and priest-rapists are we talking about? And, while you are at it, can you do some research on how many Pentecostal Pastor(ot any non-Catholic) pediphiles exist in this society?

In other words, Pastor, your hatred towards Catholics is showing. Thanking, David, for you warm welcome without batting an eye to the Catholic bashing exibited in this thread. I thought we weren't gonna do that kind of stuff anymore. Remember, I too can make some wild accusations about people/church without the benefit of my targets having a chance to rebuttal--like once before.

Dear Pastor Crider

Show me that the Holy Spirit indwells in you, not your misinformation about things you may know little about, please.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


You have misunderstood me and I apologize! We DO turn in ALL pastors that even TOUCHES a child! I am in NO way talking about the whole church! I am talking about the one that was moving the priest from church to church when THEY and I do mean ONLY they were doing illegal thing. He would NOT turn them in. IF you would have read my earlier staement you will see that I did say there would be people from all CHRISTIAN religions that both go to hell AND heaven. Once again, I apologize for upsetting you!

-- Darrell Crider (wdcrider35@aol.com), June 29, 2004.

rod,

We've been through this before.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.


Pastor

You can upset me all you want, but I'm not upset. I do like it when the table is set equally and fairly.

There are Pentecostals who are not faking their spiritualness and who are not pediphiles, too. Just like the majority of priest who are not evil.

Upset? No, but I will make a stink when the posts don't make a clear statement and make others look like evil doers.

David....and we shall continue to go through these episodes again and again as long as needed.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


Rod,

Unless you want me to be like Ed and ban everyone? :-)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.


If anyone in this forum starts bashing another group, I'm gonna post in the same consistent style as above. You aren't gonna fix the problems, so I will. Fair enough, David? I can't help it if my spectacles can see clearer than others.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


Some may not have walked the Catholic walkways, but they speak with a loud voice. I have walked in both the Catholic and Pentecostal paths, but my voice doesn't need to be as loud.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


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