I am told that great miracles such as raising the dead ened with the apostles. Has any one experienced a great miracle such as raising the dead within the lats 10-20 years?

-- John Wilson (rjswilson@netzero.net), September 23, 2003

Answers

We may not be seeing many these days. But many acknowledged miracles have taken place since the days of the apostles. Including the raising of dead people. Much more recently, miraculous healing and cures have been documented; for instance in Lourdes.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.

They always happend in the past , why not today ??

Eugene , for me they are fairy-tails !! __ That's my point of view !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 23, 2003.

They always happend in the past , why not today ?? Eugene , for me , untill now , they are fairy-TALES !! __ That's my point of view !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 23, 2003.

Laurent?

How do you know that miracles are not happening now? It seems like you have shut the door on any probability of witnessing a miracle, have you?

I wonder if you do believe in miracles in the first place?

What constitutes a miracle in your view, Laurent?

Generally, miracles happen for the purpose of proving God.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 23, 2003.

It's impossible to show some one who doesn't want to believe.

To me, it's a miracle that John Paul II survived being shot at point blank and lie to be his age; What- -89?. He was active and influential in the fall of the Soviet Union. A miracle nobody could have expected.

I know of my own experience in this life, which has something miraculous about it. It's personal, or I would reveal it here. But for what? Laurent would refuse to believe it. Here are Jesus Christ's own words:

''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, even if he die, shall live; and whoever lives and believes in me, shall never die.'' (John 11 :25, :26)

He said it publicly, and minutes later in front of many witnesses (AGAIN), He raised a man who had been dead four days, Lazarus. Everyone saw it, including some who raced back to the Pharisees & chief priests of the temple. There was never any question He had returned a dead man to life, they SAW it! The same men who would have Him crucified later.

NOw do you suppose those were all false witnesses, Laurent?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.

--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.

Shalom John,

“For those with faith, no proof is necessary; those without faith no proof is possible”.

>>>Has anyone witnessed a miracle personally? >>>

We believe everyone experiences miracles, but they just don’t recognize and acknowledge the hand of G-d in it. In fact, Catholics face this all the time in the Transubstantiation during the Mass. So why do some see so many while others never see any at all? We believe it has to do with faith. Therefore when asked:

>>> I am told that great miracles such as raising the dead-ended with the apostles. Has any one experienced a great miracle such as raising the dead within the last 10-20 years? >>>

We have not known any recent raising of the dead, however the nephew of some friends of ours had terminal cancer (he was about 18 years old). The doctors did everything they could with every possible treatment to no avail for the cancer was well within his brain without possible surgery. Many of us prayed fervently, especially in lieu of this. One day after Mass, we asked how their nephew was doing and to our astonishment, we found that the doctors can no longer find any trace of the cancer- it was gone!

So do great miracles happen? We believe so, however we should also consider the words of Scripture:

“And He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands upon a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief.” Mk.6.5-6

At the time of His first coming, people were throwing themselves into the very shadows of Peter to gained healing from above, Acts.5.15, and by faith, they did. Yet how many would do so today before Peter’s successor? G-d doesn’t change, but His children do; and when His children are “holding the form of religion but denying its power” (2Tim.3.5), is it any wonder that all His servants of our generation can do is “lay their hands upon a few sick people and heal them”?

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@anglefire.com), September 23, 2003.

That's right, Mr. Foegen. What is truly tragic about these days is the many unbelieving souls so eager & enthusiastic about aliens and visitors from outer space; or cloning super specimens of the future, or channeling and communicating with famous people from ancient times. Even the very brightest in western society fall (groan) for cults and sects like Tibetan Lama followings and reincarnation frauds, or scien-tology or other such tripe. But will they admit God is here, amidst his people, in the sacrament of the Eucharist? Hell no. They won't even entertain any notion of angels or saints. Much less the power of God to give life and take it away. It's too much for them to accept. But they believe there's life on other worlds, without a trace of evidence. If it weren't so sad it would be funny!

--

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 23, 2003.

I witnessed one, first thing this morning. I raised my dead ass out of bed, prayed for God's will, then went to work. Every day is a grand miracle. Everything I witnessed today had miracle all over it.

Been a while. How's everybody these days?

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), September 23, 2003.

So where did you keep the resurrected donkey while you were at work?

-- (Talitha@Coum.i), September 23, 2003.

It's impossible to show some one who doesn't want to believe. To me, it's a miracle that John Paul II survived being shot at point blank and lie to be his age; What- -89?. He was active and influential in the fall of the Soviet Union. A miracle nobody could have expected.

1981 (St Peter's Square) , by a criminal named , Mehmet Ali Hagca !!

Than it would a miracle to everyone who survived a deadly shotgun !! __ I was lucky , the guy who was crashing on our car , he didn't drive with the speed of 150km/h , it was just only 100km/h , I still do feel it in my back & my leggs !! __ Nice , a miracle , I survived that crash , but because I don't believe , I'm trapped with pain in my back ??

Seeing my own father dying , in front of eyes , he just drops dead , and nothing I could do about it , you know what that means ?? __ Or was it also a punishment , because I don't believe in religion ??

I know of my own experience in this life, which has something miraculous about it. It's personal, or I would reveal it here. But for what? Laurent would refuse to believe it. Here are Jesus Christ's own words:

''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, even if he die, shall live; and whoever lives and believes in me, shall never die.'' (John 11 :25, :26)

He said it publicly, and minutes later in front of many witnesses (AGAIN), He raised a man who had been dead four days, Lazarus. Everyone saw it, including some who raced back to the Pharisees & chief priests of the temple. There was never any question He had returned a dead man to life, they SAW it! The same men who would have Him crucified later.

NOw do you suppose those were all false witnesses, Laurent?

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

What is apparently dead ??

I know of my own experience in this life, which has something miraculous about it. It's personal, or I would reveal it here. But for what? Laurent would refuse to believe it.

Tell us , please !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

About the fall of the USSR , that was people were tired the communistic party / corruption , etc .... !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

Hi Chris nice to see you back :)

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.

laurent, im going to ignore most of your poorly informed post and concentrate on the one part of it that i think has merit...

Than it would a miracle to everyone who survived a deadly shotgun !!

no, from a range, surviving a shotgun blast isnt really a miracle, its expected, although youd be pretty riddles with scars. try this, plug a gun TO YOUR CHEST. pull the trigger. i almost guaranty youre going to die. the point is, the circumstances existed which made survival HIGHLY unlikely. i dont even consider the survival the real miracle though. the real miracle was the forgiveness of the sinner, and the eventual conversion of the would be assasin to the true church. THAT my friend, is the hand of God.

Nice , a miracle , I survived that crash , but because I don't believe , I'm trapped with pain in my back ??

you know, not everything in this world is caused by God. in fact, not everything even has a necessary cause. somethings just happen, and we dont know why for sure. car accidents (for the most part) are one of them. im glad you lived though.

Seeing my own father dying , in front of eyes , he just drops dead , and nothing I could do about it , you know what that means ?? __ Or was it also a punishment , because I don't believe in religion ??

and now we come to the root of your problem with religion. you blame God for the bad things in your life. you know, i watched a man die once. i am a first responder and he had a heart attack. only he had an order not to resucitate. i had to stand there and watch the man die because there was nothing i could do... and that feeling hurts. i dont think God chose for that man to die, not at his grand daughters speech for memorial day. i think his old heart just gave out and he died. God probably welcomed him, but didnt necessarily call him.

but i digress. i hope youre father was a good man, and that he loved you as much as you apparently loved him from the hurt in your words. i cant say anything that will ease your pain, but i can say that i am sorry that life seems unfair. im sorry that people have to die. and im sorry you were so hurt by it.

there is still love and life out there, and you will find it, but you have to have the faith and will to carry on, even when youre all torn up inside. that is a key element to the catholic faith. we stand up again, no matter how many times we get knocked down, even when it kills us to get back up. you have allowed this to sever your faith and keep you from the one true source of comfort from our sorrows... fight despair, and come back to us. There is a loving God waiting for you, to comfort you.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 24, 2003.

How can you/I blame something that doesn't exists ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

I believe the beginning of a new day is a miracle.

-- Regina (Regina712REMOVE@lycos.com), September 24, 2003.

Here is an event from a very reliable source:

I distant friend was laid up in the hospital suffering bad symptoms of diabetes. My friend was in bad shape and doctors were pretty much held hostage by time and the conditions of the disease. The doctors were hopeless or, at the very least, stumped as to what else they could do.

My very good friend and his church pastor friend made a visit. They became very aware of the situation and then asked the nurses to please exit the room. My friend and pastor then proceeded with prayer and "placing of the hands". Then miraculously, the symptoms were removed, not by these two faithful people. The prayer and "hands" showed a work of faith. God made the healing. This "miracle" only proves that God hears our prayers and heals the sick.

Guitarman-Singer, if you see this post, will you make some comments?

Rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

I've personally witnessed 4 miracles; the births of my children.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), September 24, 2003.

I believe the beginning of a new day is a miracle.

I've personally witnessed 4 miracles; the births of my children.

Indeed , these are real miracles !!

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

Rod , you knew my answer before I have answered your story/question !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

Depends on what you take as a miracle. I've seen a couple of highly unusual weather related "coincidences" during Papal visits.

The first was in 1987 when the Pope visited Detroit. He was landing at the airport in "Shepherd One" - a helicopter, and was to address the Vice-President (GHW Bush) and then board his plane to Italy.

It was raining cats and dogs...down pour. The TV commentator (a Protestant) was commenting on how unfortunate the rain was... but as soon as the helicopter door openned, the rain stopped - on TV - and over the podium... the camera shifted right and you could see that it was still raining off in the distance (you could see it in the klege lights), but not over the Pope who gave his farewell address and then boarded the plane. As soon as that door closed, the rain started again -completely flumoxing the info-babe on Channel 7.

I witnessed a similar event in Rome some years later during the Good Friday stations of the cross at the Colisseum. Again it was raining hard, we all had umbrellas (well, I didn't and I was soaked). But as soon as the Pope walked out into the open air - the rain stopped over him, but was still raining on half the crowd... again it held off until the ceremony was over and he left.

In his visit to Central Park in New York, if you remember, there was fear that a sniper could pick him off from any one of the 40 or so skyscrapers which ring the park... but as soon as he arrived, a cloud bank moved in, completely obscuring all the buildings... I was there with another 250,000 people - and during the Mass you couldn't see the skyline.

During his homily he mentioned that he used to sing a christmas carol, "silent night" as a boy, and spontaneously began singing a couple of bars (in Polish of course). As soon as he was through with the homily, the whole crowd spontaneously sang the first verse in English.

And there's been more "coincidental" breaks in the weather at Papal events... sometimes of course it has rained straight through... but other times, the sun has broken out as if on cue... Miracle? Maybe.

When I was in Rome I heard from a couple of priests and nuns about cases of pilgrims who visited the Pope to ask for prayers for healing...and a couple were cured of cancer either right there, or shortly after returning home...

Then there are the spiritual miracles of conversion of hearts. Many many people I know of have attributed the Pope's personality and intervention in their own conversion or re-conversion. At Papal audiences I have seen cool, hip, "professional" looking businessmen and women who had been glib and talked about wanting to bend the Pope's ear with their opinion, suddenly look like school children and then burst into tears as he walked near - and just looked at them in the eyes and blessed them or touched them.

Now, maybe it was some psychological pressure of the moment before important people...but I have been in the presence of Presidents (Reagan, Bush I, Clinton) and while it's certainly impressive what with the pomp and cameras and Secret Service, there's just not that electricity and life-changing phenomena going on.

It's not for nothing that people called the bishop of Rome "papa" - for he really is a father figure, a spiritual father of souls, someone you can almost see Jesus Christ in - his eyes, his expression, so transparent and tender, so eager for your greatest good, suffering, yet with joy...

With politicians and generals you sense: this is a powerful man, watch out. But with the Pope the sense is: this is a holy man, a real saint, a glimpse of heaven.

And so that's what in fact the saints are: holy representatives of God. Witnesses to the otherworldly, in this world. Signs and wonders of God's action.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

That is truly amazing, Joe.

Then change your handle, Laurent. "Non believer" doesn't seem to fit extremely well.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

Rod , plz explain ??

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

Well, if you believe in miracles, then I'm guessing that you believe in the Source of those miracles, yes? If so, than this would make you a "believer" in some degree, but not a true "non-believer". I'm confused as to where you are at in your belief.

rod..

..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

"How can you/I blame something that doesn't exists ?? Greets from a NON BELIEVER"

As you have always known, Monsieur Lug, you still know today that God exists.

However, because of all your suffering (especially your beloved grandmother's death?), you have decided to pretend that God does not exist. It's easier to pretend that he is not there, than it is to experience the constant anger associated with blaming him for all your suffering.

What you need to do is ... NEITHER. Neither pretend that he doesn't exist nor blame him. Instead blame the true causes of your suffering -- ultimately sin (especially the original sin) and the weakness/error/mortality that it has caused in mankind. Blame sin and the father of lies ... and then let go of all the bottled up tension and anger.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 24, 2003.

Who said , I ever have believed , at the time I was younger , (age: 0-15) , I only was going to church , 'cause my parents told me to go together with them , so that's no proof of belief !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 24, 2003.

There's a difference between "belief" and "faith". Atheistic Communists believed and died for "the future utopia of the proletariat"... Current Atheistic North Koreans "believe" in their nation (ethnic tribe) and ideology of "Junche" or self-sufficiency and utter superiority.

Non-Believer may therefore "believe" in many things which are not immediately verifiable, but which have to be accepted to be more than an opinion. Perhaps he believes in the "inevitable progress of science", though we have many historical cases of whole civilizations slipping BACKWARDS in both the theoretical and technical fields due to war and social implosion. For example what happens if all the elite classes and professors were to die of AIDS, or nuclear war? The already built THINGS could last a generation...but without trained people to build new things and better things...technology would slip back. It happened in Cambodia, Cuba, and Africa.

Most people then have opinions...and beliefs. But neither have anything to do with religion and revelation.

In that realm we're talking about "faith" which is like belief except that it's origin is divine and the object of "belief" is something other than man-made or man-thought.

You can believe what your parents tell you...but you only have faith when dealing with supernatural realities.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 24, 2003.

Joe , you've got a very good point !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 25, 2003.

Yes, nice, Joe.

But, Laurent, you are evading the real issue here. First, you need some degree of belief, then comes faith, of course. Yet, you call yourself a "Non-believer". Then I should point out that you are a contradiction of terms. Make up your mind or clarify your denial.

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in miracles?

Do you believe in Christ?

But, like John has observed of you, you must believe in God if you lay blame on Him. It is ok to lay blame on the real culpables, there is forgiveness.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in Christ?

!! NO !!

Do you believe in miracles?

What is a miracle ?? __ I don't believe in what your church calls miracles !!

But, like John has observed of you, you must believe in God if you lay blame on Him. It is ok to lay blame on the real culpables, there is forgiveness.

Like I said before: How can you/I blame something that doesn't exists ?? __ I don't believe in something that doesn't excist , do you ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 25, 2003.

Laurent:
No belief in God, Christ, miracles.

This is like the beasts of the field. A cow or ox sees only the ground, eating grass. The day may be beautiful, but to the cow there is no day. --That's how an unbeliever lives.

He never prays. Nothing can be holy in his eyes. Nothing therefore can be evil. Ignorance for an animal is pardonable. But to ignore what is holy; to be indifferent to God's love; is to be indifferent to happiness. To live this way as the cattle live. For grass. To eat and urinate and leave waste behind. Shameful for a man. Might as well die & get it over.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

I don't think that's how unbelievers live... One of my best child hood friends was an atheist (actually, he never admitted it to me as kid, he'd always "take the 5th" when I asked him). He was smart, funny, and truly humane as an 8th grader. He didn't see the need for faith in God.

Later once his passions (puberty) hit, he suddenly decided that morality was for the birds and he could do whatever he pleased..."so long as no one gets hurt" thrown in for the sake of civility.

Then one of his pets died and he went into an existential crisis... I couldn't imagine the trauma he'd face had either of his parents (he's an only child) died!

I don't think unbelievers are nasty, frothing at the mouth, moral lepers who don't believe because they're stupid or evil. I do know that many have in fact not read very many Catholic philosophical or theological explainations of things...but it's generally not malice on their part as much as just not knowing.

Unless no one has noticed I reserve my heavy firepower for people who "should know better" (which I think is what Christ did too. He was gentle with the pagans and sinners - less gentle with the Sadducees, and very harsh with the Pharisees and finally brutal with Peter - calling him "satan" because the more you know and the more grace you have, the more responsibility you have when you blow it).

In the same fashion, we might be harsh with some Protestants who come here smuggly trying to drop bombs on us...but we shouldn't carpet bomb non-aligned people or civilians who just don't know or just don't believe.

Why not? Maybe because they never thought it all through. Maybe there's some personal emotional issue at stake. Maybe some "believer" scandalized them... maybe some university professor sold them a bill of goods in Philosophy 101... Maybe their peers and media-intake is exclusively agnostic... who knows?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Dear Joe:
Your impulse to charity is taken note of. I'm not persecuting Laurent for his unbelief. I'm simply defining his way of life. It's a gift I'm giving him today, and he can't pretend not to understand.

Unbelievers are never fully understood. Some like yourself devote more attention to their ''good points'' as if we had a duty to presume their innocence, instead of actually trying to affect their blindness with remonstrances.

We come here because we believe. Laurent is here to boast about his unbelief. Your take is, why be judgmental? Or demanding; with somebody who never got the same breaks we've gotten?

But he said he was born to Catholic parents. He is baptised, yet rejects God; calls Him a ''fairy tail'' (sic) --This is a lost soul, Joe. Not an opera singer here to entertain us.

Your remark, ''Unless no one has noticed I reserve my heavy firepower for people who should know better (which I think is what Christ did too. He was gentle with the pagans and sinners - less gentle with the Sadducees, and very harsh with the Pharisees and finally brutal with Peter - calling him "satan" because the more you know and the more grace you have, the more responsibility you have when you blow it).''

--your remark is pointless. I've never even seen your heavy firepower. Being gentle with pagans and sinners is plain smarmy. In fact; given that Laurent consistently returns to the same tug of war, I wonder what you yourself believe about God; if you think he deserves more slack??? Is the pagan or atheist entitled to absolve himself; with no need for God's forgiveness? That's what each unbeliever actually does! He says in his heart, ''The evil I do is my own secret. No God exists to either judge me or condemn me,'' --And, Joe-- that's a one-way ticket to damnation.

Therefore, we ought to do our duty to our neighbor, calling him to faith and repentence. Not stand by as he brushes off your every argument for faith! --Or thinks he can do that.

The pagan and unbeliever has to return to God, or he'll perish. We are the Church. --Christ clearly told the Church: ''Go . . . Make DISCIPLES of all nations (pagans)-- . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days, even to the consumation of the world.'' (Matt 28 :19-20)

Disciples of all nations, Joe. A disciple is a believer in the Master. We have a vocation to bring men like Laurent into the Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

Hi Eugene.

Your words are good!

Laurent. It is good to see your honesty about yourself and your non- belief. Now, is the perfect time to learn. How can you explain your own existence without resorting to a Divine Creator as He who has made the miracle of life? You are a miracle, a creation, a man. How did you come to be?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Joe-

I got spanked as a child when I didn't do the right thing. That stubborness got me in a lot of trouble. My parents were trying to set me right for my own good.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

How did you come to be?

The chicken & egg story !!

You & I can't explain how it all started !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 25, 2003.

We don't have to explain HOW it all started. The very fact that it DID all start is proof positive of the existence of the One who started it. Unless of course you have a scientific explanation for the generation of everything from nothing??

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 25, 2003.

It boggles the mind, Creation of everything in the universe. In the sky, earth, in the ocean and LIFE. The perfection of the sun & moon, the exactness necessary for life. Why is one apple the size of one hand? Why does it rain? Why do animals have instinct?

Why do men and women THINK?

Why do we LOVE? Because: God is love!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

I have witnessed many medical miracles over the past 20 years. All were witnessed first hand (not from TV) and all occurred to people I personally know so I knew for a fact that these weren't psychosomatic things and they truly were healed.

All occurred through the laying on of hands (referrred to as the gift of healings (see 1 Corthinians)) or through Words of Knowledge (also see 1 COR). Just a few off the top of my head included a brain tumor that disappeared, a broken leg that was healed instantly, a broken vertebrae and knee caps that were healed instantly, severe diabetes that now gone . . .

To see such things, you need to get around people who have and exercise the gifts of the Spirit (e.g., Charismatic Catholics).

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Saint Catherine of Siena is reputed to have raised a dead man. She laid her body prone over the corpse, after prayer. For sure this would have been a case for the devil's advocate; so; what are the chances it's false? She is a Doctor of the Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

Look Rugene it's a matter of pastoral prudence not principle: Of course one of the spiritual works of mercy is to educate the ignorant and chide the wayward. We are our brothers' keepers.

But have you ever noticed why Catholic vs. Catholic or C vs. Prot. polemics get so heated? Or why Civil wars are more brutal than nation vs Nation ones? It's because the closer we are to each other, the more a dispute or disagreement seems so unintelligible and inexplicable.

But with strangers who have all the marks of people who haven't studied as much or learned as much or lived as much as we have... you just don't take their flippant remarks with as many grains of salt as you would if a priest or bishop was flippant.

I stand by my attitude: Christ was blistering with the Pharisees - but gentle with pagans.

What you have to do is discover his premises and a priori principles, then from that basis construct the lesson which will LEAD him to the reasoned conclusions which set the "ground" or conditions for supernatural faith.

Once you have the faith, then we can argue about this or that scripture, this or that application of pastoral prudence, this or that rite or ritual, the more or less convenient charism, etc.

You just presume a little too much IMHO. A non-believer may be flippant, but most are ill informed and until we get information on the basics out on the table, and can agree together on the basic truths, there's no point in trying to convince him about truths accessible to the mind only when inspired by grace.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

For example, until he accepts as reasonable that human beings have immortal souls, there's no point telling him that God is a spirit and that post-mortem hell exists which is a nasty place "to go"... because he'll just say "Spirit" is a meaningless word to me... it means "immaterial" and thus means "nothing"....

Then what? You're stumped!

So I first prove through deduction that the human being has a soul and that this soul is immortal, and that thus we should be concerned with what happens to our soul (mind/will) after it is separated from the here and now of the body.

Belief in the immortality of the soul also leads one to conclude in the existence of spirits... of whom God is the princeps analogatum of all.

If you can agree on that, then it makes sense to proceed to the issue of this God communicating his will to the human race via theophanies, prophets, and saints... thereby making the case for religion and spirituality.

Once that's settled (that souls are immortal, spirits exist, and there is God who cares about us) the "ground" is set for us to bring in the Old and New Testament, and get specific about what this God wants of us and is doing for us in return...

The early Church missionaries after all were dealing with THEISTIC pagans who did believe in immortality, spirits, and gods... and were generally terrorized by what happens after death. For them Christianity was indeed "the good news" because they were well aware of plenty of bad news.

Modern agnostics and atheists then are even MORE culturally primitive and under-educated in metaphysics than the ancient pagans! So the work of evangelization requires as much a course in basic philosophy as it requires theology and apologetics!

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

"You & I can't explain how it all started !! "

Exactly!

You and I are here. Of all the things in the universe that have been, are, and will be have a purpose. There is no such thing as "randomness" (I'll get some flak over that comment). If we stumbled across a device in deep space, the first thing we would want to know is where it came from. Then, who made it?. What does it do? Why is it here? Why can we believe that the device we've found has an origin, purpose, and a creator, but when it comes to our own existence atheists settle for a void?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Why has life started ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 25, 2003.

...for all the possible reasons and answers you can ever come up with in the small amount of time you have before the eternal life that awaits us all. That's my answer for now. We are here to live. We are here to experience what life has to offer--good and bad. We are here to live in the image of God. We too need to create something for our world to experience. We need to discover the simple and the awesome that are seen and unseen. We need to be spiritual, because that is who we really are. We need to seek out God in all that He has created. We need to be with God. Our purpose in life is to live. Why has life started? God will answer that question when we are ready to understand the answer. Could you live as you are knowing the answers to all of those impossible questions? Hee, hee! The early primitive man would have a difficult time understanding super conductivity; it's just magic to him.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 25, 2003.

Reply to Joe:
Laurent isn't much news around this forum. He's been visiting about 3 years now. You are relatively new.

There are scores of posts in which I treated Laurent just as you've recommended. I did that from charity and patience; he can tell you so. --Before you assume my patience and charity are at an end, let me tell you even today, I am charitable & understanding toward Laurent. What you've read in this thread isn't inflammatory. It's basic evangelistic confrontation. Confrontation with an intransigent challenger. Are you saying Christ never answered a challenge? Never went the last mile for a lost sheep? Or pussy-footed around the anti-religious??? And please look at Saint Paul. He challenged kings. He spoke out against powers of opposition to the Holy Gospel. ''God will strike you, white- washed wall!''

If you want my respect, Joe, consider well what I've said about-- and to-- Laurent LUG. You have let your soft side intimidate you against a blaspheming unbeliever. Don't compromise the Holy Gospel, that for which Laurent's soul is thirsting and dying. His soul is withering into a crust. We have to shake him up before it's too late.

Also, please do not preach to me about Jesus & his divine love. I don't love Jesus in some lukewarm, wistful kind of rapture. I love Him above life itself. He knows it for a fact. That's why I desire to call souls to Him here. Laurent and many others. May it be his Divine Will. Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

Laurent isn't much news around this forum. He's been visiting about 3 years now. You are relatively new.

I thought somewhere july or august 2001 , because in 2000 , I didn't had internet !!

------------------------------------------------------------

We have to shake him up before it's too late

Plz , don't do that , it can cause a braindamage

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 26, 2003.

Ah! Do you find it amusing to flirt with the Devil, Laurent?

So, you are a believer, but not as I thought.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

To Unbeliever... as I understand your posts, you don't believe in the existence of God or spirits or the immortality of the soul. Is this correct? (if not, then forgive my misjudgement of your situation).

To Eugene, please answer my post as I wrote it, NOT as you skimmed it. If the man doesn't believe in God, spirits, and the soul's immortality, how in the world will any "witness" about Jesus Christ as savior, redeemer and healer matter to him? This is a serious question: if you don't believe in God - any "revelation" of His will for mankind loses all meaning!

So first you have to do the pre-theology education of proving the souls' real immateriality and thus immortality. THEN once the mind accepts as true that spirits exist and God must exist, you begin introducing what God has revealed of himself and his will to man in time. The cart can't go before the horse Eugene.

Look there is a similar problem to be had in the pro-life world: all the earnest arguments proving the true humanity of the embryo are POINTLESS until you face the underlying and thus true mental block in many pro-abortion women: sure they're in denial about the life of the child in their womb, but before that they're in denial about the value of life - including their own!

In many psychological profiles of such women it was not the information of the humanity of the fetus that finally hit them, but their own intrinsic dignity and the purpose of their lives as women that woke them up. What is sold to them as a life-affirming and life- expanding "choice" (*or rather "no-choice") they discovered was actually a life-dulling and life-enslaving surrender to the lust of men and internalized self-destruction.

How can you love your neighbor as yourself if you don't first love yourself? If you yourself is not lovable, and everyone tells you life is for self-centered passion only... then you're really not going to care much about an inconvenient and hidden life which would require a life-time of sacrifice and self-less generosity on your part!

Finally Eugene, God bless you, but you don't do justice to the Gospels or Paul... let's see ONE example of Jesus blasting pagans. The further away from the truth people were, the less he had to say to them and the less harsh his words were. To Herod and "the Greeks" he said nothing. To the Centurion and Samaritan woman, the woman caught in adultery, and "sinners" he had only compassion and kind words... perhaps for the above reason: they had to first experience love in order to discover that they were lovable and thus worth saving and seeking salvation!

But to the Sadducees and Pharisees (both very "religious" and well educated in the law) he reserved his harshest words - because they SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Even then, he didn't quote the Prophets to the Saducees because as you know they DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE PROPHETS. They only accepted as Divine revelaton the Pentatuch (first 5 books of the Bible) so that's the text he used with them to prove that spirits exist "In the text about the burning bush God said to Moses I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob". God is not the God of the dead but of the living for all live for him"

With the Pharisees, Jesus did quote the Prophets - and showed them many prophetic signs as well. He also of course ate with them and taught them and we see them in many of his major sermons, listening...so he wasn't all heavy and tough, but we only see him being tough with them and no one else.

So to conclude Eugene, we have to see where people are coming from and what they DO ACCEPT OR BELIEVE IN. You can't start on a level which they don't accept because your syllogisms won't matter to them. They'll think you're begging the question - which you would be.

It's a pain, but it's the only way to truly lead someone to the fullness of truth - one step at a time.

Peace.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

To Unbeliever... as I understand your posts, you don't believe in the existence of God or spirits or the immortality of the soul. Is this correct? (if not, then forgive my misjudgement of your situation).

You're correct informed !!

---------------------------------------------------------------

Ah! Do you find it amusing to flirt with the Devil, Laurent? So, you are a believer, but not as I thought.

rod

That was just joke on what Eugene wrote

PS , I also don't believe in or worship the devil , if that's what you thought !! __ I only believe in love , my mom , about myself: my life (the things I (can) do) , some of family , friends , my cat , yesterday , today , tomorrow !!

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 26, 2003.

Jmj
Dave, you wrote: "I have witnessed many medical miracles over the past 20 years."

I don't accept your claim to have "witnessed many medical miracles," because I don't consider you qualified to judge an event as a "medical miracle." I consider only those given, by the pope, the vocation of judging such matters to be qualified. I grant is possible that you have witnessed a miracle, but I need to hear that it happened from one who really can say with certainty (the pope). I believe that it is more likely that you have never witnessed one -- except when you were Catholic and witnessed bread and wine becoming the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus on the altar.

You also wrote: "To see such things, you need to get around people who have and exercise the gifts of the Spirit (e.g., Charismatic Catholics)."

I think that it is (at best) unwise to use the term, "Charismatic Catholics." Since God gives gives [Greek "charismata"] to each baptized person for building up the Church, it follows that every Catholic is a Charismatic Catholic. I don't believe in using this term to refer to a segment of the Church's members.

Moreover, God does not withhold the gift of healing from one segment of the Church and bestow it only on another segment. We are all equals. We are not split into the gifted and the deprived, the drones and the dynamic, the peons and the elitists.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 26, 2003.

CORRECTION:

"Since God gives gifts [Greek "charismata"] to each baptized person for building up the Church ..."

(Sorry.)

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 26, 2003.

There is a method to my madness. If all I've demanded of Laurent seems distasteful to them, I would caution my friends not to read my posts. My words are meant for Laurent and not Joe or other critics. I think our disputes with Laurent have an accumulative effect. One that will benefit Laurent in the end. God converts, not me; I only take the premises to Laurent as best I can.

God in the past has converted harder cases than our friend. It's one of Christ's clear teachings that we are blessed when without seeing, we have believed. If only those who saw ever believed, Christ would not demand faith. That's one reason I disagree with joe's facile conclusions. Let me only say I thank Joe; for his contribution in balance of this argument. Laurent should also thank him, probably. One day I hope Laurent will even thank me.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 26, 2003.

Laurent wrote:

PS , I also don't believe in or worship the devil , if that's what you thought !! __ I only believe in love , my mom , about myself: my life (the things I (can) do) , some of family , friends , my cat , yesterday , today , tomorrow !!

Love? Prove it. Love cannot be measured by the 5 senses; therefore, it must not exist. It is a figment of your imagination. Where did Love come from? Does it have a beginning? What substance or material is Love made of? There is no Love. I can only believe in those things which I can do.

Do you get my point? Why is it so easy to believe in Love, but so difficult to believe in God?

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

Beautiful insight, Rod!
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 26, 2003.

Ha ha! let's get laurent to tell us; does he love with both arms, or with both legs? One arm? --

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 26, 2003.

Laurent may tell us love is only a fairy-tail. Very sure of himself, Laurent. Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 26, 2003.

Well John, I reject your rejection cause I don't consider you qualified to judge me or anyone else :-)

Believe it or not, I'm telling the truth. I don't have to prove to you, though the individuals who were healed would gladly testify and show you their before and after xrays (a number of which I've also seen). I could call Stephanie or Pat or Warren, ect all of whom have medical evidence showing before and after shots as well as doctor notes, but that wouldn't prove it you either. You'd just retreat into that protective cocoon of not recognizing anything the Pope hasn't declared a miracle cause otherwise you might have to acknowledge that someone other than a Roman Catholic might actually experience God or function in God's power in a way that you normally restrict to the realm of saints - and I've never seen you exhibit that kind of maturity before so I wouldn't expect that now.

And while I agree that all Christians who've been baptized have the Holy Spirit within and therefore gifts of the Spirit, the vast majority of Christians never discover their gifts nor exercise them. Again, the only gifts of the Spirit are in 1 Cor., I'm not referring to being a gifted teacher or gifted with patience or anything like that. Most people confuse the role in the church and/or the fruit of the Spirit with the gifts of the Spirit.

Charismatic Catholics had to learn about the gifts and had to come to a place of total surrender to God and His will for their life coupled with the laying on of hands from someone who is already filled with the Holy Spirit in order to be filled and release those gifts to be used for the health and strenthening of the church. So if someone wants to see God's power at work (which is what John Wilson asked in the first place), you need to hand around those who exercise the gifts of the Spirit which are the means through which God demonstrates his power in the world.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

There is a "beautiful" world waiting for you, Laurent. It is there for the asking. It is a beautiful world filled with "light" and "love". It is a trillion fold better than the void atheists settle for. The first step is simple acceptance of a tiny belief in the possibility that a smidgen of truth exists. Then, everything will come into place gradually as you allow it to be. One tiny seed is all it takes. A void will get you nowhere. Love is not in a void and you believe in Love. Start with Love. You are not a "Non-believer".

rod..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

It is also the place of Light and Love. You'll understand this meaning, too.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2003.

David B states for us his views:

''Christians who've been baptized have the Holy Spirit within and therefore gifts of the Spirit, the vast majority of Christians never discover their gifts nor exercise them.''

It's somewhat self-serving to base the truths of charismatic belief in their ''gifts'' on a baptised soul. It's not a matter of discovering our gifts & then using them. That's bogus, IMO. There is no vast majority to speak of; only each individual soul, before God.

More to the point is, a soul once baptised is in a state of sanctifying grace. With it are possibly the charisma God chooses for the soul. Not necessarily of each variety. But if the same soul outside the Catholic faith falls into mortal sin, all grace is lost. With it go all the gifts; since sin and charisma are anti-thetical (It must seem?)

Without valid sacraments to fall back on, that soul has no claim to charisms.

The absolution of a Catholic priest is our usual recourse; and with few exceptions. To purport that sin will never impede the Holy Spirit, and the health of our souls; our holiness; is simple presumption.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 27, 2003.

Eugene , FOR YOU , I've got a question:

What's the meaning of life ??

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 27, 2003.

Eugene , FOR YOU , I've got a question:

What's the meaning of life ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 27, 2003.

Dear Laurent:
Please explain the question. What is it you wish to know? A meaning is mainly right or wrong. i have told you what the right one is. The love of our Creator is what gives man life; eternal life.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 27, 2003.

Eugene , the question is very simple , but until now , NO-ONE has given the right answer !!

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 27, 2003.

Laurent,

And when the right answer comes along, you will be the one who can confirm whether it is right or wrong???!

Oyvey! Who has made you king of the world?

I'm just ribbing you a bit, Laurent. The Bible mentions where Jesus does not reveal things about Heaven because we can't even understand things of this earth. What makes us think that we will understand heavenly things?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2003.

Laurent: --You think you know an answer. Let's hear it. Don't keep us in suspense.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 27, 2003.

laurent...

the meaning of life and everything, the answer to the question of life is indeed very simple...

42. but thats not the important part. the important part, my friend, is the question...

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 27, 2003.

Jmj

Dave, you wrote:
"Well John, I reject your rejection cause I don't consider you qualified to judge me or anyone else :-)"

I didn't "judge" you. You need to read more carefully. I wrote:
"I don't accept your claim to have 'witnessed many medical miracles,' because I don't consider you qualified to judge an event as a 'medical miracle.'"

And I couldn't care less whether or not you "reject [my] rejection." Apparently I need to remind you that this is a Catholic forum, that you are an ex-Catholic [i.e., a formal heretic], and (objectively speaking) you may well be on the road to hell because of your (objective) heresy and (objectively) grave sins [admitted by you].

I really am not interested in what a heretic like you tries to sell here. I have no time to waste on a lapsed Catholic unless he is seeking to revert and to grasp and believe the Catholic truth -- which you never are seeking to do. Instead you are usually here to spread seeds of doubt and division, most pleasing indeed to the "father of lies." (Misery loves company, after all.)

You have repeatedly bashed devotion to Mary and the other saints. You have criticized priestly celibacy. You have approved of (and probably practiced) contraception and sterilization. You do not condemn attempted remarriage after divorce. I'm sure that you have fought against other Catholic truths, though I now forget the rest. If it were within my power, I would ban you, because I am sure that, whether intentionally or not, you are here to do what is bad for Catholics, not what is good.

Repent, Dave, and make a good confession in a genuine Catholic church -- not in your watered-down pretend-Catholic denomination. Then I will be able to welcome and respect what you have to say. As of now, you have nothing worthwhile to share with me. Your slick-willy lines go in one ear and out the other. I thank God for giving me "spiritual anti-bodies" to ward them off.

May the Lord help you, before it is too late.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 27, 2003.

send the geld[ing] packing.

-- - (......@..........), September 27, 2003.

what an personal attack on Dave!! the whole thing but especially this: "You have approved of (and probably practiced) contraception and sterilization" are you in their bedroom John?

-- wow (wow@idontknow.com), September 28, 2003.

what an personal attack on Dave!!

certainly not. dave has advocated many uncatholic sentiments in our forum. now, you who wont even give your name... would it be fair if a guest came in your home and insulted your religious beliefs? no? didnt think so. saying that it is wrong to be preaching anticatholic messages in our own forum doesnt constitute a personal attack, it constitutes a defense of truth against that which is promulgated by those who are not in it.

perhaps it is innappropriate to assert that dave may have put into practice some of the sins which he preaches as being acceptable, but it is just as innappropriate to come here and presume oneself so rightous as to flout immorality in our home.

-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 28, 2003.

Eugene , FOR YOU , another question:

What's the meaning of death ??

Greets from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

Dear WOW,

Thanks for the concern, but that sort of behavior is what I expect from John. Water off a duck's back as it were. John sets himself up as judge and jury on this forum and yet the history of his behavior over the years is far worse than anything I've been guilty of despite his relatively good manners of late.

It particularly godes him whenever I remind him that there are other Christians apart from the Roman Catholic Church through whom God moves in powerful ways - this is just too much for him to grasp. He always pulls out the list of sins he believes I'm guilty of as a means of distracting from the truth - for instance, I do support use of contraceptives and in so doing I'm completely in line with the Orthodox Churches who are just as catholic as Rome. Note I've never said whether or not I use or have used contraceptives - that's no one elses business - but one would be wrong to assume I have.

As for being a heretic, well, let's just say I've seen a letter from a very respected Catholic Cardinal who's specifically examined the beliefs of my church (Charismatic Episcopal Church) and has authorized us to receive Eucharist at a Roman Catholic Church. So in the bottom line is that John's judgements of me disagree with a Catholic Cardinal - guess who carries more authority and credibility? John probably thinks he does, but that would only be consistent with his delusional state.

Besides, John's attack is misdirected. He'd be just as angry if Gail or Theresa (Charismatic Catholics) would have posted in stating that they also have witnessed healings or miracles. He doesn't like the thought that God works powerfully through someone more than he does through John - it provokes a strong jealous reaction. That's understandable. In John's world, one's holiness and closeness to God is relative to one's orthodoxy and correct practice and understanding of all Catholic doctrines and dogmas - things John excels in. What he fails to see is that, while those things are important to God, that there are other things that are more important. These are a mystery that he can't grasp, and that frustrates him.

So I no longer get bent out of shape when he accuses me of heresy and the like. I know my standing with God and have nothing to hide and will accept no nonsensical attacks such as that. Even now, I fully expect a scathing rebuke/attack from him - he can't leave it alone. He's too threatened. Well, I'll let him get the last word in and not respond to him. His silliness will speak for itself.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

(Funny) quote from 25-09-2003: Eugene wrote:

This is like the beasts of the field. A cow or ox sees only the ground, eating grass. The day may be beautiful, but to the cow there is no day. --That's how an unbeliever lives.

Can you really read the mind of a cow/ox , have you ever done some research on thatone ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

quote from 25-09-2003: Eugene wrote:

Nothing can be holy in his eyes. Nothing therefore can be evil

That's where you're total wrong:

I do see the difference between bad & good , howelse I can see when somebody wants to hurt somebody , for example , stealing property / things , murder , rape , kipnapping , terrorrizing people , ....

Good things: Love , fun , pleasure , helping someone , ....

Also my mom & dad (rip) or my sisters , they are holy to me , even we do have a total disagreement about religion & church !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

Laurent:
Now we're finally getting somewhere. You're starting to answer my challenges, instead of simply repeating what everyone's heard out of you for years; ''Greetings from Non-believer''. Before you can learn something, you must let go of the protective shield. You now wish to have a discussion? That's the first step.

Cows become milk, cheese & meat on the table. We know what they need. Grass. They need sunshine & shelter, but after that they're finished. If one could read the mind of a cow, it would seem like: ''I like grass; Hmmm, look at the grass; or I shall give my baby calf milk. Later GRASS.

Much like the atheist human, except he/she can form more direct analysis and an abstract idea. Like: ''Either there's a God, or I was formed from atoms and by accident.'' He doesn't even ask where ATOMS come from!

By choosing accident, this man returns to the level of cattle. Nothing will exist for him after he dies, except death. A coffin. Worms.

Like the cow or ox, he won't CARE. As long as his GRASS --this world; remains for him to eat out of, walk in, & realise a passing love or two, then FINISHED. Finished like an animal's life.

You maintain there is a good & evil in your life with NO GOD? How? If we decide abortion is good, and God has no voice in the matter, what is evil about abortion? Or larceny-- Thou shalt not steal: If the unbeliever wants somebody's property; why not take it, without payment? Steal it? Unless the police intervene, no one else can judge that a crime. No one has to be a witness, they won't know who stole the property. You don't have to admit it. God would KNOW. Except, to you, there is no God. He wouldn't know, since He is not there.

Then, larceny would be good for you. There would be no way to see justice, because there wouldn't be a Lawmaker, God.

Your Mom & Dad: To you they're holy. OK; But why isn't God holy, for the same reason? He gives us life. Would you call your Mother & Father parents who never existed? You call our eternal Father a God who is nothing but a fairy ''tail''; and that's that.

He is HOLY, and you won't pray to Him, or believe in Him. But He created the world around you. It didn't come from air, from nothing. He even created what we call AIR; to keep us all alive. Nothing exists now which God did not make out of NOTHING. And without God, it would return to NOTHING, Laurent; YOU would be nothing; and me too.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 28, 2003.

Like the cow or ox, he won't CARE

How do you know ??

Salut & Cheers from NON BELEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

Laurent, the first time we met I made a comment about your "Non-believer" greeting. How about if you changed it a little?

How about "Greetings from a Doubter" Or "Semi-believer" as your new name?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003.

No , religion & church , they really mean nothing to me , they are really not my way of life , it's that simple , no doubts about that !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

The ox & cow certainly don't. They have the brain of a beast. The atheist SHOULD care; such as you. Except that he chooses to do what animals do; not care. How do I know?

The same reason you know whether or not God exists; or think you know. I've observed the evidence all around me. You see the same evidence, but shut your eyes to it, Mon Ami.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 28, 2003.

What evidence ?? __ As long you can't show me evidence , there can't be a case in court !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

Laurent, if you can prove that your mental thoughts exist, as a material substance or as something tangible,in a court of law (you can't) then you can prove that faith also exists. But, you can't prove that your thoughts are real in a court room. Any answer that you give would only give evidence to some pre-programmed response that you have remembered. Much like Pavlov's dog and the conditioning done to that beast. The dog can't have any thought processes! It is only stimulus and response that triggers a behavior. It is the chemical reaction in the biology of the beast that we see. It is akind to photosynthesis; it's just a reaction. Everything in life for an atheist must be a reaction to a stimulus. You can't prove that thoughts exists, remember love?

If you can't even prove thoughts, how in the world will you prove faith to a fleshy judge limited to 4 dimensional measurements? Height, width, length, and time have nothing to do with spirituallity. Yet, your thoughts do exist, though unseen. Faith does exist. God does exist. Now, truly we do need our physical bodies, but it exists only because our soul exists. But, you can't put thoughts in a bottle; we can create and leave something behind for the world to benefit or suffer by. But, what about abstract thinking that has no physical manifestations? Where does that come from? How do you measure one's abstract thinking? Who can? All a court can measure is a behavior and then decide/guess as to that person's intellect. But, we're right back to Pavlov's dog. Is it all just a response to stimuli

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.dog), September 28, 2003.

Our faith is seen through the works that we do to Glory God and accept Christ as our Savior. Those who do not know only see the works, but do not understand the faith. It is not until they begin to allow that small seed of faith to grow will they begin to understand the reality of God.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.mustard), September 28, 2003.

Than how it becomes , we can kill a living creature ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 28, 2003.

"Glorify God" is what I meant.

rod...

...

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.glory), September 28, 2003.

It takes a mighty strong person to kill another person.

It takes a mighty strong person to avoid killing another person.

It takes a mighty smart person to avoid being killed.

It takes a mighty faithful person to allow themselves to be killed in place of killing the killer.

Which one are you?

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.aim), September 28, 2003.

Jmj
Hello, "wow."

You quoted me and then asked a question:
"'You [Dave] have approved of (and probably practiced) contraception and sterilization'
"are you in their bedroom John?"

"Wow," I don't need to be "in their bedroom" to know that he "approved of" those things. I have been encountering Dave's rubbish now for more than 3.5 years. He was already here when I first arrived, in January of 2000. So you and everyone else should be aware of the fact that I know EXACTLY what I am talking about whenever I expose this guy for what he is.

I know that he defected from the Church, and that (regardless of how he may deny it) he retains a smoldering hatred for her. I know what he believes, and I know that a goodly portion of it is bad for us Catholics. I know some of the mortal sins he approves of (e.g., barrier methods of contraception, invalid "remarriage," etc.).

I will never silently let him get away with what he occasionally tries to do here. He seeks to succeed in planting seeds of dissent by using an extremely deceptive, mild-mannered, ingratiating approach, by which he fools some credulous people into becoming his "friends" (who are actually victims). Then he tries to manipulate the heck out of them. I especially recall that he fooled a very intelligent man who was short on common sense, and I also recall that he fooled several unsuspecting women who had a dangerous habit of trusting strangers.

"Wow," back in early 2000, I thought that the poor guy could be helped by some extensive, private e-mail conversations that I was willing to have with him. I found out, though, that his heart was hardened and his mind was shut tighter than a drum (as it still remains). Although he may or may not have promoted contraception and sterilization out in the open here at forum, I know for certain that he did so in those private e-mails with me.

He is married and has children. He spoke favorably of barrier contraceptives and especially of sterilization -- spoke of them with such enthusiasm, in fact, that I felt fully convinced that he and/or his wife had used such unnatural birth control ... and/or that one or both were now sterilized. He may well have even admitted to me that he was relying on one or the other back in 2000! THAT is why I just now stated:
"You [Dave] have approved of (and probably practiced) contraception and sterilization."
Notice that I was careful to be tentative ["probably"], not outrightly accusing him as though I had certainty. Yet notice how he reacted:
"[John] always pulls out the list of sins he believes I'm guilty of ... Note I've never said whether or not I use or have used contraceptives ... but one would be wrong to assume I have."
As you can see, he wrongly accuses me of "assum[ing]" something. But I "assume[d]" nothing.

In the unlikely event that I have some free time tomorrow, "wow," I'll take another look at his foolish response to me (above) and see whether any further rebuttal is necessary. I may decide not to bother, though, because the poor soul may have already been sufficiently discredited.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 28, 2003.

0 my God! I love Thee above all things, with my whole heart and soul, because Thou art all-good and worthy of all love. I love my neighbor as myself for the love of Thee. I forgive all who have injured me, and ask pardon of all whom I have injured.

-- it does (not@mat.ter), September 28, 2003.

Laurent said:

What evidence ?? __ As long you can't show me evidence , there can't be a case in court !! Salut & Cheers''

There; I told him he saw the same evidence I do. But he refuses to see. Was I lying? You see his unwillingness to admit the everyday evidence of God's existence and His love. All the wonders of Creation, and the human race! They didn't come from air, Laurent! This is proof; God is our first cause. The whole universe has Him for Creator, and this is revealed by God himself. Jesus Christ, His eternal Son, revealed the Almighty Father to the world. But Laurent can't see. He is blinded by his pride.

// //

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 28, 2003.

Ok.......If the NON BELIEVER does not care or believe in religon or the Catholic Faith, WHY DO YOU KEEP COMING HERE AND ARGUE ABOUT IT?

Why did you come to this site in the first place?

I'm glad that you did though, you can learn alot here.

You want evidence in God in order for you to believe huh? Ya, I was the same when I was a non-believer.

I looked at plenty of books about God's creation.

I already knew abot evolution, but wanted to learn of what scientist who believe in a God think and say and boy what amazing things did I find out.

If interested you can look up books like "Darwin's Leap Of Faith" by John Ankerberg & John Weldon, "Show Me God" by Fred Heeren, "Bones of Contention" by Marvin L. Lubenow, or "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell, etc.

Extremely wonderful and very interesting information. But, that did not yet satisfy me. Neigther did learning about miracles or even ones that happen today. Of course they all sparked me with more hunger to learn more and even got me going to church.

But I did not find complete satisfaction until I had my hunger to read the Bible which is such an amazing book.

I know a person who loved to read religous books only to laugh at them and try to prove them wrong thinking they are just all fairy tales. But when he read the Bible, he became a Christain.:)

Even the pharises in Jesus day saw him do plenty of miracles. But that did not make all of them believe, it only made them angry and want to kill Him more.

Just the fact that one becomes a Christain is the most blessed of all miracles to me. I used to believe in a ghostly spiritual realm, and then an athiest I was for awhile in all denial of God. But I am thankfull He called out to me and I answerd. Praise him for all He has done.

One has the right to choose what they will believe in, I believe in God, the Christain God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and have been on such a spiritual journey since. I just hope and pray others will as well.

-- Jason Baccaro (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), September 28, 2003.

quote 28-9-2003 Rod wrote:

It takes a mighty strong person to avoid killing another person.

I can not even kill my own cat , but what in the cases of self- defence , someone is threaten you with a gun , for example in a (bank) robbery ??

-----------------------------------------------------------------

quote 28-9-2003 Eugene wrote:

He is blinded by his pride.

Are you trying to "beat" the hell out of me ?? __ What is really your OWN pride , except for your faith & belief in religion ??

-----------------------------------------------------------------

to Jason Baccaro ,

Why I do come here ?? __ A few years ago , I did found this forum via google , I saw some intresting questions to talk about , so I started to reply at some of them , knowing I would disagree with some of the questions & replies !! __ A discussionforum is , someone asks a question , and some like to answer !! __ Express yourself with your own opinion , without criminal intentions !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 29, 2003.

Well, since my wife is currently pregnant with our 3rd child, you can draw whatever conclusions you will from John's little diatribe.

Dave

-- (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 29, 2003.

Just to understand how strange John's rant has become, his last post actually accuses me of fooling intelligent people on this forum into becoming my friends and then manipulating "the heck out of them" . . . what exactly that means and for what possible purpose he doesn't say, but for some reason John is determined to make it sound like I'm some sort of wierd, dangerous internet forum stalker here with language like that - very bizarre, John.

John just doesn't get it. He's convinced himself that I'm here to lead people away from the Catholic faith, yet he can't point to a single instance where this has occurred and can't even point to an instance in which I've even suggested to someone that they should leave the Catholic Church. In fact, it's just the opposite. On numerous occasions, I've suggested to people to go to their priest for assistance. Even in private emails, I've always pointed people back to the Catholic Church. Even in THIS thread, I pointed folks to seek out Charismatic Catholics - I didn't send them to any other church. So John's accusations are baseless.

What I am doing here is 3 fold. First, to learn and discuss topics of interest for my own understanding - that's number 1. And I have learned much which has helped me to draw closer to the Lord. Second, to interject encouragement for people to pursue a Spirit- filled life within the Catholic Church - a life that is more than just attending Mass and knowing your doctrine - this may be threatening to folks like John who think they already have a corner on the spiritual marketplace, but most people are more mature and aren't threatened. And third, to occasionally interject non- Catholic Christian opinions into the mix as a function of conversation, but doing so with full disclosure of where I'm coming from and what I'm doing - everyone knows that I'm just stating opinions and providing food for thought. Much of the time I'm ignored - and that's fine. Many times I provide surprising agreement on issues. And on rare occasion I butt heads with certain topics I feel strongly about. But at all times, this is a conversation. It's not a Catholic doctrine class that I'm disrupting. None of my contributions are a threat to anyone here. I even voluntarily adopted (at John's insistence) the "non-Catholic Christian" moniker to ensure that my perspective is fully disclosed.

I'm not here to undermine the Catholic faith, John - PERIOD. So stop with your childish accusations. Time to grow up and behave yourself.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 29, 2003.

I hope the cat doesn't have a gun pointed at you. (Just kidding)

There are certain things that cannot be controlled. If I walk up behind you and blast a gunshot , you are either gonna jump, run, faint, or yawn. These things are automatic. If a person threatens you inside of a split second, you may or may not react in time. Your actions will probably not have any moral tendencies in such a situation--no time to think. All that is important at that particular time is your own survival. Your cat doesn't want to kill you, but if you corner it and it feels threatened it will do what it takes. In your bank holdup, chances are that you will not get hurt unless the situations gets really out of hand and hostages are taken. At some point, you would have to decide whether to exterminate the danger or to allow yourself or others to be seriously killed. Sometimes doing nothing is just as bad as taking action. Also, I tend to think that Satan has a way of being involved in evil deeds, of course. So, what do we have to prove to Satan? Nothing. Do we allow Satan to take over our existence? No.

What would I do in your bank holdup? I don't really know. Hopefully, before the trigger is pulled, I would have taken the bad guy with me and allowed God to sort out our fate.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 29, 2003.

According to the Cure Of Ares, namely St. John Vianney, any alcoholic who can get sober for good has been touched by a miracle of grace. Here is a clip from one of his sermons...

"Habitual drunkenness is not one of those sins which time and grace will correct. To cure this sin, not an ordinary grace but a miracle of grace is required. You ask me why drunken people are so rarely converted. This is the reason: it is that they have neither faith, nor religion, nor pity, nor respect for holy things. Nothing is able to touch them or to open their eyes to their unhappy state."

I personally know many recovered alcoholics. Each one a miracle of God's grace.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

David B "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" if I could become even half the Christian man you are I think God would be very pleased with me. God Bless you and thankyou.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

Scroll up and you'll find this:
"Well, I'll let him [John Gecik] get the last word in and not respond to him. ... Dave -- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 28, 2003."

Now everyone can see an example of what I have said about him. He is a manipulator and a liar. He came back after I had posted a brief response -- even before I had a chance to rip his previous message to shreds in a detailed way -- and he posted again, contrary to what he said he would do. As I mentioned last time, while I am at this forum, I will not let him get away with his game of polluting minds, so I will hope to find time ASAP to list his latest "boners" and truth-twistings.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

PS to Kiwi: I'm shocked at your naivete -- even after I warned you about the guy and pointed out how others have been fooled by him. You decided to be a willing victim of a defector. I never would have though you could let yourself be a subject in this Svengali's hypnotic act. You must be in your cups.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), September 29, 2003.

Hi Emerald :). Hi John I havent seen it in the 20 months Ive been here. There are far more important things God would be wishing me to do than argue about this issue, its not for you to judge people the way you sometimes do. He may be error which we should point out in a few matters but focus on the postives; John he shares 99% of the truth yet you only focus on the 1%. The Pope calls for unity of all Christians indeed many say it is a final wish of his to see further progress on this issue before his time passes... that requires dialouge John, I need not remind you of the Churchs teachings on ecuminism. I respect your opinion on Dave but beg to differ I think youre being slightly paranoid on this one . Blessed are the peacemakers and blessed are you Mr Bowerman! (even though you could be even better as a Catholic!)

Be Not Afraid!

God Bless you too John.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

Congatulations to Dave B and his family. May God bless them with a healthy baby.

Kiwi, I think your barometer is out of wack as to what I have read Dave post before. The brown scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel is the most popular devotion involving wearing a scapular in the Catholic Church today. Saints and popes throughout the ages have worn and encouraged wearing of the brown scapular, and many miraclous events have attested to the value of the sacramental(the scapular worn by Blessed Pope Gregory X, who died in 1276, was found intact in 1830)

We'll Dave has told me before in this forum, that the promises of the Blessed Mother are coming from the pit of hell. Dave has also laughed when I told him that St.(Blessed at the time) Padre Pio was attacked by the devil.

Yet this is a man that has bounced from Catholicism(which he never understood) to a few other relegious beliefs as I have read. But, he is proably convinced that he can speak in tongues?

And now him and Miss Dave B. are expexting a child. And I see Dave (in a round about way) using this as the (unspoken)word that this sums up his case on contraception.

One has nothing to do with other. Millions of people have children that believe in using "barrier" form of contraception. We just read Cindy Brown post of her operation that she hopes to have.

On another note: God bless you're wife Dave, and may the Lord keep your family(and future members) safe and healty.

-- .@....... (David@excite.com), September 30, 2003.

Hi David I cannot comment on how he has treated you and would aprreciate links to these pages. If you have not already I only ask that you and others please take the time to read the words of Pope John Paul II below before passing comment on Dave B. Dave B if you ever wanted to a few "infallible replies there are plenty in this encyclical!

http://incolor.inebraska.com/mdavis/jp2utunu.shtml

I need to learn how to link properly one day.

Take Care David and I hope your own daughter and wife are well and life is good. God Bless, Lifes such a miracle in itself. Even thinking about a baby makes me want to cry at the beauty and mystery of life. AS an aside youll be pleased to know The Rugby World Cup will be starting soon. ANyway GO THE THE ALL BLACKS!!!!, Ill be sure to keep you up to date with our path to victory :-)! Im a slave to this world I admit it.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

"You must be in your cups."

Sorry I just noticed this I seem to have about ten spare minutes in my life these days each day, John what does this mean?

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@ho6tmail.com), September 30, 2003.

To Kiwi:

incolor.in ebraska

< A href = "http://incolor.inebraska.com/mdavis/jp2utunu.shtml " >incolor.inebraska< / A >

only no space after < , > & between / A , before & after =

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 30, 2003.

To Kiwi:

incolor.ine braska

< A href = "http://incolor.inebraska.com/mdavis/jp2utunu.shtml " >incolor.inebraska< / A >

only no space after < , > & between / A , before & after =

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 30, 2003.

Hey thanks Laurent nice to see you back around again. Hows that eyesight going, any improvement? I see youre still holding out as a non believer :-).

Time to try that link thing Im a computer retard so I wouldnt hold my breath. I thing we lose track of the primacy of love as the most important message we must give even if I dont shower it on trads, Jake and Regina ya all know I love you its the intentionally misleading stuff (eg Ziggy) that drives me up the wall. ANyway I could be much more civil to others. Theres a song going around that every kid around the globe probably knows at the moment as its number 1 everywhere. Made me smile in hope to see kids singing this

where is the love

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

You beauty it works, my long suffering "link makers" JFG and Mateo your works of charity and patience are over! I feel like a new man, cheers Laurent :)!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

Hello Kiwi , indeed , I'm a non believer , I left religion for good !!

But I do come here , just only to answer some question I want to !!

But if I can help people , I'll try , if I can !!

About my eyes-sight , it's stable at the moment , but don't worry , I just takes it as it comes (I have to) !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), September 30, 2003.

Thanks for the well-wishes Kiwi and David. We're very excited.

Careful there Kiwi, saying something nice about me puts you on John's list :-) Shame on you for being duped by my "hypnotic" act :- ) Obviously, I'm here to steal your soul away from the Church. Well, regardless of my supposed evil intents, I genuinely appreciate your comments and grace sir.

And to confirm some of what David said, "yes", it's true that I don't believe that possessing any object (e.g., scapular) ensures one of salvation. I believe that salvation comes only through faith in Christ Jesus as expressed through a repentant heart surrendered into Holy Baptism and maintained through life-long good standing in Christ. As one who is not Roman Catholic, that stance shouldn't be surprising. With regard to Padre Pio, I didn't "laugh" at him or even dismiss that he could be attacked by the devil. I was commenting on an aspect of his response to those attacks and seeming inability to "resist the devil and he will flee". From what I have read pf him, he was indeed a mighty man of God who functioned in many gifts of the Spirit. My priest highly respects him, so I'm planning on learning more about him.

Anyway, thanks again and God bless!

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), September 30, 2003.

Thanks, Kiwi

Hope all is well with you're family. I don't want to top the old threads, but I don't rember it the way Dave does. If my memory serves me right, I rember it a little different. And I am well aware no medal can save you. It is the faith you have in God. But the promises are real, and thats why I have been wearing one for years and years.

Maybe you should read what the Holy Father writes the next time, before you "flip off" Terry with a picture of Jesus saying that "F" word. :-)

God bless you

-- . (David@excite.com), September 30, 2003.

You remember those other threads perfectly, David/excite. The other fellow, Dave, either has a "conveniently" bad memory or is lying to protect his reputation, since some of his "fans" are nearby.

And those facts -- those examples of disgusting disrespect for Catholicism -- are just part of the list of reasons I have been so vehement in speaking to and about Dave B. You will also recall the (at least) two times that he attacked our intercessory prayer through the Blessed Mother and other saints. Remember those alleged anti-Marian quotations of his -- for which he said he'd look up the sources? Then, of course, he didn't look them up, but he did use the same bogus quotations a year later.

I have to reread Dave's last two posts before deciding whether or not I will list and correct all the errors therein. I'm thinking about doing a little penance and ignoring the details of what he wrote -- as a way of bowing to the request that Kiwi made. However, there are a few things that I cannot left unsaid, because I don't want to leave people stuck in such serious misunderstandings of my position ...

Dave has repeatedly tossed around some kind of silly ideas about my supposedly feeling "threatened" by the existence of spirit-filled non-Catholics. This is nonsense. I have been aware, since my Dad explained it to me when I was a little boy in the 1950s, that there are good Protestant people who are Christians and who do things that please God -- and that they may end up in heaven just as we Catholics may. I have never forgotten that, and I have treated legitimate Protestants at this forum with due deference and respect. [Ask Kathy, for example. Ask the Protestant church congregation for whom I played the organ for four or five years.] I do not feel "threatened" in the least by such people. I wish them all the best and hope that they will grow in holiness and good fruits (while also being attracted to the true Church). These are the people, Kiwi, with whom Catholics can really pursue ecumenism.

But ... the non-Catholics that I will NOT tolerate -- the ones I will "encourage" to leave -- the ones against whom I will do my utmost to protect fellow Catholics and lurkers -- are in two categories:
1. "cradle Protestants" who are blatant, Jack-Chik-inspired, bigoted, anti-Catholic proselytizers, and ...
2. ex-Catholics who do not come here with a mind to be "reverts," but to try to get us to join them outside the Church -- or at least to talk us out of one or more of our beliefs.

I honestly believe that the people in category 2 (of which Dave is a part) are among the most wretched human beings on Earth. They may be in worse danger of damnation than even the unbaptized. Those of category 2 are even worse off than the bigots of #1 -- and far worse off than respectable Protestants mentioned earlier. Dave cannot be believed when he claims to have only good intentions here. If that is all he has, he would never once have tried to talk us out of believing any of our doctrines. But he has kept up exactly the same thing for four years, despite the many protestations by some of us that he stop. He lies to all of us when he pretends to be here only for innocent reasons. He has to lie in order to fool people and to be accepted, rather than to be shunned or banned.

Part of my very strong reaction to "category 2 non-Catholics" arises from self-defense (and defense of my fellow Catholics). They have brought immeasurable pain into the lives of so many families!
The other part of my reaction comes from my genuine concern for the souls of these people -- which may well be in the most profound danger. I always keep in mind the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church ("Lumen gentium" of Vatican II), which tells us in #14: "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." Dave was a Catholic for about 20 years and did know from earliest childhood "that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ" -- but he "refuse[d] ... to remain in it." That is why I fear for his salvation, and I am extremely hard on him partly because I care about his soul and want him to get it out of danger. (He and some of you fellow Catholics may have thought that I have hated him, but just the opposite has been true!)

All right. That's enough. I hope that I won't have to say anything else on this thread.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

PS to Kiwi: I was teasing you. The old-fashioned phrase, "in his cups," means "intoxicated." I was using that to give you an excuse for letting Dave fool you into trusting him.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 30, 2003.

Shalom Laurent,

You stated:

>>> What evidence?? __ As long you can't show me evidence, there can't be a case in court >>>

We understand what you mean here, however we see that this is comparative to trying and explain color to a blind man. Yet, we do suspect there is something that may help. You know that the probability of life on this earth is remote, yet here we are. So either we have defied all probability or there is a deity that created all this that we now see. You have been searching for proof and still end up without sufficient evidence to believe in a deity. However, have you stopped to ask the creator if He exists? In sincerity, call out to the creator of the heavens and earth and of you. If there is no response, then you have "your proof"; BUT if He responds then you know He exists. We truly believe that He will reach anyone who is earnestly seeking to know the truth to make Himself known. Without this step of action, you cannot continue to claim He doesn't exist, but rather that you denied yourself the opportunity for Him to provide sufficient evidence for you.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 14, 2003.

Even in THIS thread, I pointed folks to seek out Charismatic Catholics - I didn't send them to any other church. Dave -- non-Catholic Christian

There is no such thing as a Charismatic Catholic unique from other Catholics. Everyone has the Holy Spirit initially through baptism and the entire Catholic Church burns with the fire of the Holy Spirit, without which there would be no church at all.

In all likelihood, although I have no big experience with so called Charismatics, there is some Protestant spirit or an anti-clericalism about the movement, or at least temptations into this thinking, in that they separate themselves and give themselves a special label. Thus suggesting that they have something that the rest of us only wish we had, that they have something that was present in the early church but is now lost. Of course this is false. I do not deny the benefit of whatever good they do.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 14, 2003.

my reply to C.Foegen

We understand what you mean here, however we see that this is comparative to trying and explain color to a blind man. Yet, we do suspect there is something that may help.

About a blind man , I know exactly what you mean , that person has to imagen how it looks like , that becomes quite impossible , 'cause that "data" is missing !!

------------------------------------------------------------------

You know that the probability of life on this earth is remote, yet here we are. So either we have defied all probability or there is a deity that created all this that we now see. You have been searching for proof and still end up without sufficient evidence to believe in a deity. However, have you stopped to ask the creator if He exists?

Strange enough for some , I do believe in the past , present & future , otherwise life has no sense , I think , but I take the day as it comes , it's that simple (You have to) !!

------------------------------------------------------------------

In sincerity, call out to the creator of the heavens and earth and of you. If there is no response, then you have "your proof"; BUT if He responds then you know He exists.

But until now , really , no-one has show me proof of existance , simply , you can't , you only presume !!

You wrote: We truly believe that He will reach anyone who is earnestly seeking to know the truth to make Himself known. __ That's no evidence , you only presume !!

Without this step of action, you cannot continue to claim He doesn't exist, but rather that you denied yourself the opportunity for Him to provide sufficient evidence for you.

So , what have I to deny or what am I denying ??

------------------------------------------------------------------

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 14, 2003.

OFF TOPIC

J. F. Gecik , you've got mail about March 28 , 2001

Dutch-English Translation !!

BACK TOPIC

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 15, 2003.

Shalom Laurent,

>>>So, what have I to deny or what am I denying?? >>>

Actually, you are denying yourself the opportunity to learn the truth as well as denying the Creator to show Himself to you.

Imagine, if you will, that you are standing above a canyon and all you have to do is call out. If you only hear your echo, then you know no one is there. But if you heard another voice in response to yours, then you would know someone is there.

You keep asking for proof, but you are asking humans who cannot show such proof; yet you seem to refuse to try and call out. You claim we only presume and we can state the same about you- you only presume because you will not even try. What do have to lose? A loss of time on the Internet or from television? Are a few moments too much to ask for when you spend so much time in pursuit of your denials? If no answer, you have your proof; but if there is an answer you have proof of a different answer.

Simply put- the ball is in your court and it’s time to play ball!

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 15, 2003.

I don't deny , simply , there is nothing to deny !!

But ok , we both say we are right , but we both can't prove , so I don't deny anything , but I just don't belief , that is my good right , that's our freedom !! __ For me it feels like you have to believe or you're nothing ; well , nobody forces me !!!!

Are a few moments too much to ask for when you spend so much time in pursuit of your denials?

Are you going to something you really don't like ??

btw: If no answer, you have your proof

If I wanna think about life , I'm going out for a walk , or I'm going to my rehearsal place , so I can't here anything from outside , the only sound I hear is , from myself , like a beep-sound in my ears , if I put my amplifiers open and play the guitar with volume 13 , or of I play the drums very loud !! __ Or if I just put on the amplifiers , I'm only hearing "zzzzzzzz" on the background !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 15, 2003.

Laurent wrote:

I'm only hearing "zzzzzzzz" on the background !!

Then, you are tone death, Laurent. You are closing you ears to the sounds around you. You are putting your head in the sand and fear the obvious. You can't explain your own noise or existence. You settle for emptiness when you could be filling up on everything. You are living on "empty". You have nothing more to lose, so turn around and get your head out of the sand; You can always go back in if things get too rough, right? If I walk by you, I'll be sure to pull you out of the sand and make sure all of your amps are plugged into the wall sockets, because there ain't nothing comming out of them.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Shalom Laurent,

You wrote:

>>>But ok, we both say we are right, but we both can't prove, so I don't deny anything, but I just don't belief, that is my good right, that's our freedom!! __ For me it feels like you have to believe or you're nothing; well, nobody forces me!!!! >>>

Interesting you state that we both are right, but cannot prove. We agree that we cannot prove to you and that is because our proof is in a personal relationship with our L-rd. These relationships are not concrete items that we can simply show others This is why no one can give you the "proof" about G-d; it is personal to each individual and in their marriages. For us, the evidence is clear, as we have sought for that answer and we have it abundantly.

For you to establish proof it will require an effort on your part because none of us can give you our relationship with G-d; for that is a personal thing without length, width and height. Yet, you state that no one forces you to do anything. Indeed, we agree with that, however if you choose not to find that proof you claimed to want, then you have no one to blame but yourself! All we did was give you an answer to your question. True, that answer requires you to do something- ask. But to claim putting aside a few seconds in your day to ask your Creator if He exist from your heart is imprisoning you is absolutely absurd. If we are wrong as you claim, then what is there to fear and if we are right how can denying truth bring freedom? Further saying you will not like faith is equally absurd given that by your own definition you have never had a faith so how can you make such a claim about something you have no knowledge of.

>>>If I wanna think about life, I'm going out for a walk, or I'm going to my rehearsal place, so I can't here anything from outside, the only sound I hear is, from myself, like a beep-sound in my ears, if I put my amplifiers open and play the guitar with volume 13, or of I play the drums very loud!! __ Or if I just put on the amplifiers, I'm only hearing "zzzzzzzz" on the background!! >>>

You seem to be running away from something, and we wish there was a way we can help you, but all we can offer is an ear to listen (or an eye to read). Denying the pain you have only allows it to increase until it forces you to do something. We prefer something to bring healing, but as you said, no one can force you. We will continue to pray for you.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), October 15, 2003.

To C.Foegen:

Interesting you state that we both are right, but cannot prove. We agree that we cannot prove to you and that is because our proof is in a personal relationship with our L-rd. These relationships are not concrete items that we can simply show others

OK , now we're getting something , it's personal !!

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Rod wrote:

Then, you are tone death, Laurent. You are closing you ears to the sounds around you

Rod , if you really here nothing , 0db (in a sound-proof room) , your head will implode , cause of the pressure !!

zzzzzzzz is the sound that comes from the loudspeakers !!

But about an instrument that sounds out of tune , I concentrate my ears automatic to that specific sound , I listen and start tuning , no need for tuning-machines , my ears don't lie !! __ That means I'm not tone deaf , but also not tone death , otherwise I couldn't hear it !!

To Rod & C.Foegen:

I do believe in the past , present , futher , I'll take it as it comes !! __ So , If I die within 5min , than that's it , bad luck for me !! __ So why am I running away for something or what do I have to fear ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 15, 2003.

Laurent. Your tone deafness has nothing to do with sound, nor decibels of sound. Your tone deafness is your deliberate rejection of sound advice and knowledge.

BTW, your implication of having the gift of perfect perception of intonation would be a bit deceptive. If you ever hear .0db anytime soon, you would have entered into a different world. Or, your bodily functions have just ceased and you would then be experiencing a whole new existence.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Pitch intonation and religion can be handled the same. You just have to know what you are actually tuning to, the fundamental or the harmonic. Don't be fooled by the harmonic because it is so easy to deviate from the true pitch. The fundamental generally stays the same. In a perfect world, the fundamental can be a constant. The trick is to know where that pitch is and how to tune to it and stay in tune with it. Laurent, you're tuning to your own pitch, but you don't know if that pitch is the correct pitch, the true pitch, the fundamental constant pitch. Sometimes an electronic tuner is the correct path to take because our ears are only human ears.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

Even the pitch you follow , you don't know if that pitch is the correct pitch , the true pitch or am I wrong ??

Laurent. Your tone deafness has nothing to do with sound, nor decibels of sound. Your tone deafness is your deliberate rejection of sound advice and knowledge.

I know what you mean by that , I'm not dumb or stupid , but who says I reject advice & knowledge ?? __ If I or anyone else gave you advice to eat or buy something you really don't like , would you eat or buy it ??

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about tuners:

ok , in some cases you really do need a electronic tuner , to point a satellite dish correctly , or for an eartests , or a db-tuner !! __ But the usual guitartuners , I really don't trust them !! __ Also , some animals have better ears than us , humans !! __ If you got a cat , just try to sing out of tune , that cat will runaway right away , the sooner , the better !!

BTW, your implication of having the gift of perfect perception of intonation would be a bit deceptive.

I'm not perfect , that is absolutely true , nobody is perfect !! __ I didn't say I've got the perfect ears than I would lie , but I trained my ears !! __ If you play music , you have to listen ; suppose everybody in a band plays "the anarchistic way" , cacophony , I stop playing at once , I hate it , especially when all instruments are out of tune !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 15, 2003.

Most true musicians have extremely fine hearing. We can hear the subtlest of pitch deviation and decibel changes (within human ranges). We can generally hear every pitch and tonality produced by a group of musicians in any ensemble or large orchestra. Most of the time all it takes is a raised eyebrow aimed at the errant musician to correct those musical blunders. Yes, we aren't perfect, but I'm still amazed with what musicians are capable of performing. And, all of this exists because of God's doing. Perfection? I've heard some performances that I would describe as perfection. Sometimes I feel as is God Himself is flowing His music through those brilliant musicians. Tears come to my eyes and I can only conclude that God has made Himself present during those perfect performances.

rod..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2003.

I've heard some performances that I would describe as perfection.

That's because of the feeling & experience those musicians have !!

And also the feeling of the one who's listening and likes it !!

So , Personal feelings !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 16, 2003.

Many of the Great Composers believed that God had inspired them to compose the masterpieces that they did. These composers, such as Brahms, claimed that it was not their own thoughts, but those of God flowing through them. This may sound arrogant of them, but they actually believed that God inspired them. J.S. Bach dedicated all of his musical talent--genius--to God. Bach had no fame to drive him; his fame came seventy-five years later, after his death. Bach's compositions were extremely difficult to perform (klavier), not to mention his advanced use of music theory. Genius doesn't just come along from a touchy feely experience. Genius is put here for us to learn from and even to inspire us. It is God who is inspiring us through His creation. As soon as you accept the fact that God is the source of all good things, Laurent, your understanding of everything will have a greater meaning and fulfillment. Things that seem so cut and dry will blossom into a beauty that was once hidden for you. Your music (my music) is much more than sounds in time, which can be analyzed every which way. Music is an extension of our emotions, thoughts, and experiences. It is a language that each one of us understands regardless of our spoken language. There is only one Source that music comes from-- God.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 16, 2003.

Music is an extension of our emotions, thoughts, and experiences. It is a language that each one of us understands regardless of our spoken language

On thatone I agree 100% !!

I'm playing now for 16 years music on stage , but it didn't help to make grow my bank account (D*MN*D , stupid me ) , but I don't care , it would be great to earn money via making music , but for me it's more important the feeling/emtions I can express !! __ And it is a miracle , if someone do understands my feeling I put in my compositions !! __ But if someone's steeling my compositions , I'll kick his/her ass in court , cause it's something personal !!

btw: Inspiration has to come from somewhere , but first you have to understand music , you have "to see" music in your OWN thoughts !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 16, 2003.

Hee-hee, I've written a few.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 16, 2003.

You said: btw: Inspiration has to come from somewhere , but first you have to understand music , you have "to see" music in your OWN thoughts !!

I am saying: Where does the inspiration come from?

I'm just going to keep on having faith. I know that with faith, good things can happen, and they have to me...however, I have been challenged lately which is taking me to a new level in my faith. Even men that had walked with Jesus doubted. Surely will they that belive without proof, enter the Gates of Heaven.

Once you admit to faith, you have to be ready to take on the challenges that come with it. Maybe some people aren't ready to take on those challenges. The challenges only make us stronger. If you don't believe because you are unaware, that's one thing...however, if you deny the Lord after you've been givin a chance to accept Him, well...I can only guess that wouldn't be a good thing. Maybe some people just haven't been given the chance yet.

It's all up to the Lord to decide when we finally get to meet Him.

Trust me...I have doubted, much doubt...and lately I have been extremely challenged! Check back with me in a year and see how I am doing because with the way things are going I would be under a bridge homeless, in a month. Check back with me, and I will give you accounts of miracles that have happened in my life! The Lord God provides! Luke 12:22-34 We are not to worry (even though it gets the best of me sometimes...after all, I am human.)

God bless you...

~Laura (wheat@toast.net) December 21, 2003

-- Laura (wheat@toast.net), December 20, 2003.

it is written !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 20, 2003.

Getting back to the original inquiry here, I would say I have probably witnessed two miracles. Both involving my father who is a highly spiritual man.

The first happened in the 1980s when he was diagnosed wih a particularly virulent form of cancer called malignant melanoma. It had spread to his lymph nodes, and when they when in to do a biopsy, they found a malignant tumor the size of a golfball in his armpit. They pulled it out and cleaned out his lymph nodes there.

When this type of cancer is in the lymph nodes, its usually too late to save the patient for a couple reasons, but mostly because the lymph nodes are kind of a circulation hub in the body providing the cancer a means to spread easily everywhere. When cancer is found there, it usually spreads or has already spread all over the vital organs. My father, a medical doctor, was resigned to his fate and was ready to accept death gracefully. The thing was, they continued doing progressively more invasive tests and could find no further cancer. To this day, even doctors at NIH cannot explain why the cancer would be in his lymph nodes and no where else.

The later event with my father happened in the 1990s. My mother has freinds who are devoted to the apparations in Medugorgia in Eastern Europe. They have been pestering my parents to go there for years. My father has said he does not need to see a special apparation to confirm his faith as he goes to mass every day, says the rosary and engages in other spiritually confirming practices. So he did not want to go.

My mother generally adopts my fathers perspective. But this time she really wanted to go. In the end, she did not go with these friends, but agreed send along her rosary for a blessing, and "borrow without permission" my father's personal rosary too for that purpose.

My father had a pretty nicely constructed personal roasary, but while his regular rosary was in Europe, he started saying his daily rosary on a cheaper temporary version with plastic beads and tin links. My mother had about three or four of the same type lying around the house for sharing when needed. Funny thing happened to that one he was praying on during the week his personal rosary was away, the links changed to a goldish color. By the time his regular rosary was back, it was very different from the other ones of the same type.

Miracles are funny things. They are events not explainable by the physical world. When the church wishes to rely on a miracle to confirm sainthood, the event has to be beyond scientific explanation. But they all have varying degrees of being extra- ordinary. Some miracles, like raising Lazarus, are big. Some small.

The other thing about miracles is that Christ rarely used them for showing to people of no faith whatsoever. Instead, He usually shared them with people having some faith, but struggling (like the apostles early in their relationship with Christ.) Miracles are like gifts. Some are big, some are small. But God gives these gifts, generally, to people who can appreciate them.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), December 21, 2003.

You said: it is written !!

I'm saying: Um..............thanks?! ::smile::

I'm a single mom. I didn't know how we were going to exchange presents for Christmas. A generous soul, and several people from a local church put together gifts for my children, and enough food to last my family a month! Again I say...the Lord WILL provide! The joy I received from this Christmas was because of one person thinking of my family...and others lending a hand...very generous souls!!! My kids now have comforters, hats, gloves, scarfs, pants, shirts, hats and a couple of other non-necessities that others have so generously gave with their hearts to us! God bless each one of them! By the way, temporary extended unemployment is in effect, I still don't know what's going on with child-support, and my old boss put over $600 into an existing investment fund, for which I was about to withdrawl everything out of to live on for a couple more months...now I can keep that bit in there to keep the account open! I'm tellin' ya man...God is Great! I believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit because miracles are true in MY life! John Wilson...the originator of this thread...I hope you are finding answers! ::smile::

-- Laura (wheat@toast.net), December 29, 2003.

Here is a site, which has testimonies about healings and some miracles.

miracles

-- leslie john (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Here is a site, which has testimonies about healings and some miracles.

miracles

-- leslie john (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Hope succeed this time!

Here is a site, which has testimonies about healings and some miracles. miracles

-- leslie john (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Okay, I don't remember the tags well

Here is a site, which has testimonies about healings and some miracles.
http://www.drcm.org/testarctest1.htm#forsaken

-- leslie john (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

I'd like to know why child molestation is such a problem with the catholic church, I know the RCC has a larger history of this problem but I'd like to know what kind of excuses these priests have, and why they're devoting their lives to God yet doing such a evil thing?

sorta like cleaning your mothers house so you can feel fine about stealing from her.

-- vincent phillip (phillipsvince@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.

The Catholic Church has no more problem with this than any other church, or for that matter any other group of men. You have been misled by the secular media, who never miss an opportunity to attack God's Church. Every priest who has been accused of such behavior (far fewer than 1% of Catholic priests) automatically makes it to the front page of every secular newspaper. Protestant ministers don't make the front page unless they are absolutely notorious (like the Baptist minister in Florida who molested over 500 children). Non-clerics who molest children - and they appear in our courts every day of the year - aren't even considered news. Before you believe something you should consider the source. That may seem like a stange thing to say. What better source could there be for news than the national news service? But unfortunately they have some private agendas, and their coverage of the Catholic Church is not a reliable source of accurate information.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 31, 2003.

Philip Jenkins in his book Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis (Oxford University Press, 1996) tries to look at the problem objectively and dispassionately. According to Jenkins (who is not a Catholic), true pedophilia is extremely rare, is perhaps more common among Protestant clergy than among Catholic priests, and is even more common among married laymen. There is certainly a problem in the Catholic Church (and other churches), but it is not exactly what the media make it out to be.

So why is the press on the neck of the Catholic Church? You need to understand the motivation of the press is to sell newspapers or TV time. It is all about money. If a story is interesting to people, it is pushed until it eventually dies. The Catholic Church is by far the largest single denominiation in the US. It is very easy to total up the priests who have molested over the last 30 years and say 'gee there are a lot of them'. Well of course there are, there are a lot of priests! There are a lot fewer Lutheran ministers of one stripe or another. For Lutherans it is a local story, that only local people are interested in. In the case of the Catholic Church, it is a national story.

Another thing adding to the story is that lawyers are pouncing on the Church to see how much they can get of the cash harvest such scandals produce. This is a self perpetuating event. The more lawyers who jump on in the East Coast, cause more to jump on in the West Coast, etc. Pretty soon we have every diocese in the country being sued because a lawyer found someone who claims to have been molested 30 years ago. By the way, there are a lot fewer cases being report that have occured after 1985 for some reason.

So, listen to Paul, and realize there are not more Catholic priests molesting kids, just more being reported to the national news so you see them.

The good thing about all this (if there is one), is that the Church is really coming down hard on priests if they molest now.

In Christ
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.