I have been wondering whether there has ever been a woman priest, bishop or pope in the Catholic Church? A bible based answer will be prefarable.

Thanks John

-- John Wilson (rjswilson@netzero.net), September 25, 2003

Answers

No, there has never been and never will be a female priest, bishop, or Pope in the Catholic Church because it would be a direct violation of the will of God as revealed through His Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Who, by His consistent example, clearly revealed His intent, and hence the will of His heavenly Father, that ordination to the priesthood would be restricted to men. This goes beyond an obligation to obey what God has commanded. It is also a question of whether or not the Church possesses the authority to validly ordain a woman. It has been stated as an article of faith by the Pope that the Church does not possess such authority. Therefore, even if a bishop were to go through the motions of ordaining a woman, in direct defiance of the teaching of the Church and the authority of the Holy Father, there would still be no female priests, since such an "ordination" would be invalid, de facto, and the woman "ordained" in such a manner would not be a priestess.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 25, 2003.

I'm wondering why Mr. Wilson said, ''A Bible-based answer will be preferable.''

Did you say that without thinking, Mr. Wilson? I ask you: A Bible as we know it is the product of God's holy inspiration, allowed his Church in the persons of Christ's disciples. Without a Church, where would God have sent the inspiration?

Obviously, He neglected to command Jesus to write anything. BUT-- it would seem apparent He gave Jesus power to appoint a group of twelve and various other followers; a Church to lead His followers. Here, in His Church, the Word of God was addressed to mankind. Only much later, after the deaths of many original disciples did a written scripture evolve; what the CHURCH gives us as the Bible to this day.

For some reason we're expected to find in it someplace a clue to the question you're asking. About women & priesthood.

In the Bible we can quickly identify a number of holy women who were among the first Christians. None of these good women were ordained. As far as the Bible is concerned, we know all about the Catholic priesthood-- in Christ's selection of those twelve apostles. --Women were never called to His priesthood; but they are consistently seen serving God in the Church. In their own vocations. That is what the Holy Bible reveals. It isn't the end. The Church can show us the rest; she is given to us by the same God, through Jesus Christ. She has all the authority of written scripture.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), September 25, 2003.

At what point did Christ say "I don't want any women ordained"? Could it be that he simply never met any that were worthy, but there were some out there? Christ didn't have any Chinese Apostles either, but we let Chinese people be ordained.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), October 16, 2003.

God found Mary worthy to give birth to God. Surely she would have been worthy of being a priestess if anyone would, if priestesses were part of God's plan for His Church. But they were not. Jesus chose twelve men to be the first priests of His Church. Surely if it was his intention that women be included in the priesthood, He would have selected at least ONE woman out of the twelve? As the old adage goes, actions speak louder than words. When someone does the same thing the same way twelve times in a row, even though other options are available, it's only reasonable to assume that that is how he wants it done.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 16, 2003.

paul i agree with you 100% on this subject but some time ago you told me i believe in bible only theology what you said suports my beliefs on annulment just because a ordaned preist gives a annulment dont make it right exspecialy if it goes aginst the apostal pauls teachings

-- jason kennon (jasonkennon@yahoo.com), October 18, 2003.

Annulment does not go against Paul's teaching. Paul would have been the first to insist that Christian marriage is so important that it cannot be validly entered into through just any old ceremony, by any old exchange of promises, under any old motives. Paul would have insisted that something as sacred as marriage be entered into in a holy, mature, and committed way. The Church today still agrees with those same principles. Which it why it is appropriate to examine a purpoted marriage, to see if it was in fact entered into in a holy, mature, committed way which would result in a genuinely valid Christian marriage. If that is not the case, then such a marriage does not exist, and a writ of nullity - which does not change anything, but only declares what is already absent - is entirely appropriate.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 18, 2003.

A hardcore Catholic told me my marriage was not valid since I was not married in a Catholic church.My wife commited adultery on our marriage with a Catholic.Please explain why my marriage would not be valid since I spoke the same wedding vows to the same Jesus as many catholic churches use in their wedding ceremonies.And how are they not commiting adultery on a continuos basis?

-- kirk e charboneau (kirk_charboneau@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.

Kirk,

If you are not Catholic, your Catholic friend was incorrect to state that your marriage is not valid. The Catholic Church assumes that marriages between members of other churches are valid, unless and until there is reason for the Church to officially investigate the validity of such a marriage. If you were Catholic, and were married in a non-Catholic ceremony, that marriage would not be valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church does not teach that Catholics are the only people who can have valid marriages.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 10, 2003.

>>>>>A hardcore Catholic told me my marriage was not valid since I was not married in a Catholic church.My wife commited adultery on our marriage with a Catholic.Please explain why my marriage would not be valid since I spoke the same wedding vows to the same Jesus as many catholic churches use in their wedding ceremonies.And how are they not commiting adultery on a continuos basis? <<<<<<

If your wife was Catholic and you were married outside the Catholic Church without a dispensation, then itmight be an invalid form - which is something that could cause your marriage to be not considered sacramental from a Catholic point-of-view ... if it were challenged. Marriages are considered valid unless or until there is a nullity granted. If there was never a nullity granted, from a Catholic view you'd still be married.

I don't know if your friend can say for sure your marriage wasn't sacramental/valid unless he knows of something that would be automatic grounds for annulment. Usually someone would have to go thru the formal process and have a tribunal investigate and rule on that.

I'm no expert, and you gave very little information. If your wife remarried a Catholic in the Catholic church she should have gotten an annulment first and you should have been contacted. If she was Catholic and married you outside the church, the annulment is practically guaranteed - if I understand what I've read on this subject.

Maybe someone else can help more on the issue.

Marcia

-- Marcia Dietrich (marciadietrich@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.

Very good, Marcia. You have it right. We can't answer Kirk with precision unless he gives us more facts -- but you and Paul M have presented the most common possibilities for Kirk to consider.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003.

Im seeing contradiction in what people are saying here when compared to scripture.In many scriptures (mark,matthew,luke,corinthians ect.) it says that if a man marry's another or one that is put away it is adultery.I personally believe the scripture for what it says.The references to marriage are very clear and need no interpretation.

-- kirk e charboneau (kirk_charboneau@yahoo.com), December 13, 2003.

Kirk.

The scriptures you refer to are in complete accord with the teaching of the Church. Otherwise the Church would not have put them into the Bible. These scriptures refer to civil divorce. And it is true today, just as it was then, that if a couple are actually validly married in God's eyes, and then get a divorce and remarry, they are guilty of adultery, since a civil divorce has no effect on a valid Catholic marriage.

You are certainly not correct though about biblical teaching needing no interpretation. Any printed matter requires interpretation or it remains simply printed matter. Interpretation is what transforms marks on a printed page into ideas and concepts in the mind of a reader. There is no such thing as reading without interpretation. The only question is whose interpretation - personal guesswork, or divinely ordained, authoritative interpretation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 13, 2003.

"... a civil divorce has no effect on a valid Catholic marriage."

True. But lest the presence of the word "Catholic" mislead anyone ... "a civil divorce has no effect on a valid" marriage of any couple, regardless of their religion.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.

My wife and I were both protestant at the time of our marriage.By the way,this is a very nice forum you have here.

-- kirk e charboneau (kirk_charboneau@yahoo.com), December 26, 2003.

tell me..was Paul,John,Peter,Matthew,Mark,... were these guys ordained? Oh ya who is Debra the judge and had her own tree she sat under as the people came to her, and was Martha,Mary did they folow Jesus and help preach the gospal? Oh ya then there is someone by the name of Anna the prophetess that spent her time in a temlpe interceding for the Messiah,whats the deal with that?

-- Lee Prevtt (vlaprvt@aol.com), January 02, 2004.

Lee,

The Apostles were ordained Apostles by Christ (John 20:21) and in turned ordained others. The Apostles ordained similarly to the way it is done today, by the laying on of hands (Acts 6:6) (1 Tim 4:4) (1 Tim 5:22).

Click here for information on Debbora, Judge and Prophet.<P>

See  information on the Virgin Mary, and Martha, and Anna <P>

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.

I think scripture tells us clearly that women are not to rule over the man. Corinth 14:34 Timothy 2:11-13

-- kirk e charboneau (kirk_charboneau@yahoo.com), January 20, 2004.

Here is the most thorough discourse on this question from the catholic.com site.

Women and the Priesthood

Can women be ordained to the priesthood? This is a question which provokes much debate in our modern world, but it is one to which the Church has always answered "No." The basis for the Church’s teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.

While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1– 16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11– 14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34–38).

The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.

The Fathers rejected female ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.

Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

The following quotations from the Fathers constitute a part of the tradition on which this infallible teaching rests.

Irenaeus

"Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

"When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

"Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him" (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures . . . " (Demurrer Against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).

"[A female heretic], lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. . . . But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icthus [Greek, "Fish"], Jesus Christ, are born in water . . . so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34– 35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office" (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).

Hippolytus

"When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all" (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).

The Didascalia

"For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).

Firmilian

"[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist. She offered up the sacrifice to the Lord in a liturgical act that corresponds to the usual rites, and she baptized many, all the while misusing the customary and legitimate wording of the [baptismal] question. She carried all these things out in such a manner that nothing seemed to deviate from the norms of the Church" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Nicaea I

"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

Council of Laodicea

"[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church" (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians] ... In an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony ... ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit" (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).

"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).

"From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses" (ibid.).

"If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good" (ibid., 79:3).

John Chrysostom

"[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]).

"Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them" (ibid., 3:16).

"[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. For the first part of the woman is the man, as being her head. But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ" (ibid., 3:9).

"A widow is not ordained; yet if she has lost her husband a great while and has lived soberly and unblamably and has taken extraordinary care of her family, as Judith and Anna—those women of great reputation—let her be chosen into the order of widows" (ibid., 8:25).

"A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women" (ibid., 8:28).

Augustine

"[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman" (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).

Hope this helps, David the Catechumen

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

I think women have the full right to be ordained priests. Why? you might ask (if your sexist of course). Well, all you sexist men out there (including the pope), I have some retorical questions for you to think about: Exactly where in the Bible does it specifically state women cannot be ordained priests? Where exactly in the Bible does it say women are less important than men? Is that what Jesus said? Sorry Charley, but if Jesus is the GREAT CHRIST of whom I beleieve is perfect and all-loving, then He does ot believe that women are just baby-making machines who belong in the kitchen and do all the house-work. In the BIG PICTURE, women are actually much stronger than the average male. One reason: we give birth to your children. We are equally as smart, if not smarter than the average male.

-- stephanie L. age:14 (lilvolleygirl23@yahoo.com), April 21, 2004.

Hi Stephanie,

I can understand your position, and can assure you that the Church does not in any way teach that women are "second class citizens." In my many years of Catholic education, I've never been taught anything like that.

I for one, at a personal level would have no problem with the idea of a female priest. Some Catholics may feel the same as me, and others don't. But it doesn't really matter about my personal leanings. The Church simply does not have the authority to ordain women as priests. Since the Church was not left with the authority to ordain women,... it won't.

The Church functions differently than the Democratic republic we both grew up in and which so strongly colors our views. The Church can't be understood in terms of what seems fair, or what most people think.

Welcome to the forum!

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), April 21, 2004.

Stephanie,

Here are the writings of the Fathers concerning this question:

Irenaeus

"Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

"When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

"Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him" (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures . . . " (Demurrer Against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).

"[A female heretic], lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. . . . But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icthus [Greek, "Fish"], Jesus Christ, are born in water . . . so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34– 35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office" (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).

Hippolytus

"When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all" (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).

The Didascalia

"For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).

Firmilian

"[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist. She offered up the sacrifice to the Lord in a liturgical act that corresponds to the usual rites, and she baptized many, all the while misusing the customary and legitimate wording of the [baptismal] question. She carried all these things out in such a manner that nothing seemed to deviate from the norms of the Church" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Nicaea I

"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

Council of Laodicea

"[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church" (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians] ... In an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony ... ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit" (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).

"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).

"From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses" (ibid.).

"If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good" (ibid., 79:3).

John Chrysostom

"[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]).

"Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them" (ibid., 3:16).

"[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. For the first part of the woman is the man, as being her head. But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ" (ibid., 3:9).

"A widow is not ordained; yet if she has lost her husband a great while and has lived soberly and unblamably and has taken extraordinary care of her family, as Judith and Anna—those women of great reputation—let her be chosen into the order of widows" (ibid., 8:25).

"A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women" (ibid., 8:28).

Augustine

"[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman" (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).

And, as you wanted, they get their answers from the Scriptures and the Sacred Tradition that the Apostles taught orally and written (Thessalonians)

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 21, 2004.

erm, there actually HAS been a female pope...

JOAN, a mythical female pope, who is usually placed between Leo IV. (847-855) and Benedict III. (855-858). One account has it that she was born in England, another in Germany of English parents. After an education at Cologne, she fell in love with a Benedictine monk and fled with him to Athens disguised as a man. On his death she went to Rome under the alias of Joannes Anglicus (John of England), and entered the priesthood, eventually receiving a cardinal's hat. She was elected pope under the title of John VIII., and died in childbirth during a papal procession.

(sorry this isn't bible-based - but then again you can't really ask for a "bible-based answer" here as, well, the catholic church came into being after the bible, surely?)

-- inuttney (inuttney@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Pope Joan is indeed a myth, which was disproved in the 1850s. For more on the myth see the Catholic Encyclopedia.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Female can and should be priests.

we live in a patriarchal society and the Catholic church is a patriarchal church not because God ordained it that way but because men have throughout history worked to subjugate women.

At no time does the catholic church take into account the changing culture. It seems also that Jesus's actions don't speak loudly enough. He worked to raise the status od women within his social context at the time.

Take Jesus - Take Hope.

-- GoGirl (Priest@femalepriest.com), May 14, 2004.

Female can and should be priests.

ahem, CAN is more than a matter of physical process, it is a matter of form. a woman can no more be a priest than a black man could become a white female... they simply are different in a way that cannot be changed.

we live in a patriarchal society

uh, no we dont. look at the rights of women in the middle ages and tell me we still live in a patriarchal society...

and the Catholic church is a patriarchal church

heh, one thing you do have right...

not because God ordained it that way

BZZZZZZZZT... wrong. Jesus ordained twelve disciples upon whom He gave the power of the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Those twelve, without coincidence, where ALL male. in order to act in personae Christi a priest MUST be male.

but because men have throughout history worked to subjugate women.

again, you need to get some facts straight about history. try reading your books again without the thought of hating men stuck in your head...

At no time does the catholic church take into account the changing culture.

hey, another one you got right. Why should the church take any heed to a changing culture which coddles sin, and even encourages it? dont be ridiculous.

It seems also that Jesus's actions don't speak loudly enough.

yes, they do, but you arent listening.

He worked to raise the status od women within his social context at the time.

yes, Jesus made it okay for a woman to serve her own unique role in the church in a way that no man can share in. He made it okay to be a woman. conversely you fight to make it so that it is not enough to be a woman, but in order to feel validated you assert that a woman must ACT like a man. how degrading.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 14, 2004.

paul h said: yes, Jesus made it okay for a woman to serve her own unique role in the church in a way that no man can share in. He made it okay to be a woman. conversely you fight to make it so that it is not enough to be a woman, but in order to feel validated you assert that a woman must ACT like a man. how degrading.

Well said, Paul. It is indeed degrading to the role of women to imply that we must take on the role of men in order to have worth.

"GoGirl",

The role of women is not intended for the priesthood. The priest serves as a representative of Christ on earth. Christ atoned for our sins in place of Adam, the first man, who brought sin upon the entire human race. Thus, priests must be male.

Romans 5 (NIV) 12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned . . . . 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The role of women is one of motherhood - whether in the married vocation, or unmarried as a "spiritual" motherhood to all those around her. Eve was the first mother, and her sin also stained the world. But Mary, the mother of Christ, is our spiritual mother, and in imitating her, we obey her Son Jesus.

God still calls women to the sisterhood - to be nuns. Indeed, I believe that I myself have this calling on my life.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

i've replied here before, stating that there HAS been a female pope - pope john iii (check between popes leo iv and benedict iii) was elected pope, but died during childbirth.

it's interesting that my answer hasn't appeared - you exercising some censorship here, or just sidestepping an answer? or don't you want people to consider an answer to john's question that goes against your accepted version of history?

my original reply:

"JOAN, a mythical female pope, who is usually placed between Leo IV. (847-855) and Benedict III. (855-858). One account has it that she was born in England, another in Germany of English parents. After an education at Cologne, she fell in love with a Benedictine monk and fled with him to Athens disguised as a man. On his death she went to Rome under the alias of Joannes Anglicus (John of England), and entered the priesthood, eventually receiving a cardinal's hat. She was elected pope under the title of John VIII., and died in childbirth during a papal procession."

it is because of this that anatomical checks are made on cardinals.

ian

-- ian nuttney (inuttney@hotmail.com), May 16, 2004.

I hope some of you are truly reading your bible, regarding women in ministry, first of let set the record (Deborah was a prophetess and she rule and judge israel at that time (Where were the man in leadership then) A Prophet is one of the highest calling one could ever receive, lets talk a about Apostle Paul now, Paul received a fellow Apostle by the name Junia, Paul and Junia was in prison together, Please do the research and you will find out Junia in greek was a female not a male, Junia was the first female Apostle, you guys are not reading your bible A Bishop or Pope was never ordain by Jesus in the first place, the bible is clear he gave Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist,Pastor and Teacher, I ask again can a women be a Apostle, A Prophet, Pastor or Teacher ? please take time the and read your bible and find the truth

-- Prophet Colbert Hagler (colberth2001@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

Welcome to the forum COGIC Prophet/Evangelist/Elder/Pastor Hagler - a man of many titles.

I suspect you'll find the folks on this forum are not only familiar with the Bible, but also a huge storehouse of writings from the early church fathers. You are correct about Deborah and that Junia was a woman who was referred to as an Apostle by the Apostle Paul - see Romans 16:7. This is also noted by Saint John Chrysostom in his homily on Romans when he says: "Oh! how great is the devotion FilosoFia of this woman, that he should be even counted worthy of the appellation [title] of apostle!"

However, when you say that the title "bishop" was never ordained, you apparently haven't read Titus or 1st Timothy, both of which specifically use the term "bishop" (some translations render it "overseer"). And "pope" is just a term that was originally used to refer to a spiritual father as in "papa", a term of affection that was used to honor all bishops and eventually became reserved for the chief of bishops alone.

If you would like to be educated, please read this article http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 21, 2005.

St. Paul instructed the Holy Catholic Church:

"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep SILENT in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be SUBORDINATE, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church." (1 Cor 14:33-35, New American Bible)

St. John warned the Holy Catholic Church:

"Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many FALSE PROPHETS have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1, NAB)

FALSE PROPHETS deny the Truth of the Holy Eucharist, the Authority of St. Peter's Successor, the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc.

-- tim berwick (tberwick@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

So Catholic Churches don't allow women to say anything while in the sanctuary, ever? Can't so much as whisper to their child to sit still? Can't sing? Can't speak the liturgical responses? Hmmmm. Then how come Paul acknowledges female prophets in the new testament and calls one woman (Junia) an apostle? Prophets and an apostle who can't speak????

Me thinks you're misinterpreting the scripture - actually, I know you are, but I'm giving you some latitude to reconsider. Hint, you'll need to understand how church was organized in the culture Paul was addressing with men seated on one side of the room and women on the other with a veil drawn between them. A custom Jews were familiar with, but the new Gentile converts weren't and the wives on the one side asking questions of their husbands on the other side because this was new stuff for them . . . The answer lies in that path, do some research. You'll find out why Paul gave that instruction without having to resort to the statement you made.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.coM), January 21, 2005.

A woman (or man) wouldn't be sitting in the sanctuary with their child. The congregation sits in the main body of the Church. Only those directly concerned with presenting the liturgy are within the sanctuary - the priest(s), deacon(s), altar servers, lectors, and sometimes a cantor. The altar servers, lectors, and cantor are just as likely to be female as male. Both lectors and cantors address the congregation from the sanctuary.

So Catholic Churches don't allow women to say anything while in the sanctuary, ever? Can't so much as whisper to their child to sit still? Can't sing? Can't speak the liturgical responses? Hmmmm. Then how come Paul acknowledges female prophets in the new testament and calls one woman (Junia) an apostle? Prophets and an apostle who can't speak????

Me thinks you're misinterpreting the scripture - actually, I know you are, but I'm giving you some latitude to reconsider. Hint, you'll need to understand how church was organized in the culture Paul was addressing with men seated on one side of the room and women on the other with a veil drawn between them. A custom Jews were familiar with, but the new Gentile converts weren't and the wives on the one side asking questions of their husbands on the other side because this was new stuff for them . . . The answer lies in that path, do some research. You'll find out why Paul gave that instruction without having to resort to the statement you made.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 21, 2005.

Oh, we always called the "main body of the church" the "sanctuary" when I was growing up. I didn't realize there's a distinction. Thanks for the clarification Paul.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 21, 2005.

The Anglican Church is an example of protestant misinterpretation of the Sacred Scripture. They have pregnant married vicars - it's a disgrace; a sight to behold.

-- tim berwick (tberwick@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.