Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a Messianic Jew and a Catholic?

-- Dee (none@sorry.com), November 03, 2003

Answers

So, like protestants, are they baptised? Do they receive Communion? And do they accept the Real Presence?

Thanks for your responses.

-- Dee (none@sorry.com), November 03, 2003.

There is no reason to believe: ''Messianic Jews are more like biblical Christians--or protestants--'' just because our anti- Catholic lobbyist here desires it.

Biblical Christians were just Catholics with our authentic apostolic foundation on Peter the Rock; during the Church's first stages.

As their misfortune would seem to have it today, Messianic Jews are neither protestants nor Catholics (yet); merely Bible believers. That is nothing to decry; for the time being they are looking for a home. Their Messianic faith is very much in line with Catholic teachings; as they have it from the Bible. Whether or not they'll give obedience to the Chair of Peter is unknown. They have not protested against Rome; as Faith does. If the Holy Spirit wills it, they'll come into the abundance of Christ's grace with us; sooner or laterC

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 03, 2003.

"All non-Catholic Christians believe that Christ is present with us always. We do not believe that the elements of bread and wine literally turn into flesh and blood if that is what you mean."

These are two unsubstantiated claims.

The first claim doesn't really mean much (because Christ's presense could be interpreted to mean a variety of things).

The second claim is just false--Orthodox are "non-Catholic Christians," and they don't fit into your generalization. Better to simply single out protestants, though there are few things one can generalize about when talking about protestants...

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 03, 2003.

Faith,

Messianic Jews have everything they could want

No they don't, they are separated from Christ's church. They might *think* they do, but that is only a sad comment on how far away from the Truth they are. They don't know enough to know what they are missing.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 03, 2003.

Faith,
---I didn't claim it, Christ stated it. ''Thou art Peter'' / Not ''I am Peter''.

You just believe what you have chosen to believe: yourself. You are another Pope, with your own Chair, your own scriptures and your own faith. Too bad it's all false.

I wonder why the devil tempted you? It's for sure you are only here for his purposes. He has a taste for depleted Catholics; they work so hard to trash their own faith, the faith they once shared with the apostles. We know you are an unwitting pawn of the devil; not a devil-worshipper; just a poor pawn. There are several things you've said here that question God and support the devil, Faith. No exaggeration. I can scan back & quote these to you, if it interests you. I'll explain why the devil is thrilled to see you at his work. OK ? ? ?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 03, 2003.

No difference whatsoever.

Jesus to the leaders of the Church He founded:

"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." (Luke 10:16)

There it is, the Word of God - sufficient for those who honor the Word of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 03, 2003.

Shalom Dee,

Messianic Jews formed from the Evangelical branch of Protestantism, whereas Catholics formed from the 12 disciples. As a result Messianic Jews tend to have a rather Reform look on things whereas Catholics tend toward greater Orthodoxy, seeking to be in the world but not of the world. Still, we knew of one Orthodox Messianic rabbi and this one resembled Catholicism far more than his Protestant neighbors, however the judgment against him by his Protestant neighbors caused this rabbi to leave his faith in Yeshua (Jesus) and returned to Judaism.

Shalom, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), November 04, 2003.

Shalom Faith,

We find your description rather interesting, however we'll leave that for another time. For now we will address the point you made about "non-Catholic Christians" who "adhere to their Scriptures". Of course, if you are among those, then this question also pertains to you- do you consume the blood or things strangled?

Shalom, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), November 04, 2003.

Shalom Dee,

>>> So, like Protestants, are they baptized? >>>

They accept only immersion baptism, though to be truly Jewish they should be offering the Mikvah bath instead. Therefore in that tradition they are like evangelical Protestants, not Jews.

>>> Do they receive Communion? >>>

The groups we have encountered basically restate the Scriptures on Communion using Matzah and grape juice, but then call this a symbol.

>>> And do they accept the Real Presence? >>

We have not encountered any who do.

Shalom, C & C

-- C. Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), November 04, 2003.

Let's see if there is any way to build a bridge over this obvious chasm. Institutionalism is at the core of this dilemna. Let's break away from the Iron bars that separate and divide. It is Satan's house that is divided, is it not? So I ask humbly for inter religious rivalry to be excluded on this forum. If I were to simply state that no single religious institution is sinless before the creator. All have murdered in the name of God. Is it not time to bury these illusionary quibbles, and stop the overzealous fingerpointing? To state what one believes about another, without walking a mile in thier shoes is extremely ignorant, and does nothing to further the wishes of Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, nor the Apostles. Tyhere can never be true peace as long as we remain reluctant to build bridges instead of walls. Is it not true that much of these rivalries have to do with semantics, and the use of words? Remember, Satan knows the Scripture, but he is blind to its true intent. Satan uses it as a weapon, and to bring accusations. It is this presence which the master refused to answer, and refuse to give credence to. Do we use tradition, or a traditional understanding of a verse as a weapon? Should we deliver those who blaspheme to a satan of our making or does this simply mean let that person's life take its' own course? You see, what I am getting at is that The Word of God to a Jewish person is the Torah, it's spirit is meant to come to life in all who find it. To a Jewish person, it is aliving person, and it wears a crown, parading from the inner holy of holies, to the people, every time it is opened. The letters are its blood, and its parchment is its flesh. In some Jewish groups the thought was that if one becomes united to the spirit of Torah, that person is the Torah. There was a rabbi that succeeded in this. He was a special vessel, that became filled with the spirit of Torah. If a Jew allowed the Torah to speak through him, who's words do you think would match his? This is not my own interpretation, but it is one that could be used to build the bridges I have mentioned. Again, who am I to tell you anything? Further, how does the church explain Ezekiel 37:15-end of chapter? There are two houses of Israel that are to be unified just before the Messiah comes/returns.Does this mean the church and Judaism will meld? Perhaps if all of us, every man woman and child on the face of this earth felt remorseful, and asked for the mercy of the Creator there would be no need for even this suggestion toward a lasting peace with Messiah at the head. And finally, what happens to all the priests and the finery, once Messiah comes? Perhaps there are those who do not want a messiah to appear.Beware He comes as a thief in the night, lose the pride and arrogance before he does take it and all else from you. Peace

-- Trifon L. Athnos (trathnos@netzero.com), November 17, 2003.

The Church has been trying to convert Jews for 2000 years. Even St. Paul and the Apostles made it a priority; Why the change of heart?

The Catholic Church, which spent hundreds of years trying forcibly to convert Jews to Christianity, has come to the conclusion that it is theologically unacceptable to target Jews for evangelization, according to a statement issued yesterday by organizations representing US Catholic bishops and rabbis from the country's two largest Jewish denominations.

Citing teachings dating back to the Second Vatican Council, and statements by Pope John Paul II throughout his papacy, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops declared unequivocally that the biblical covenant between Jews and God is valid and therefore Jews do not need to be saved through faith in Jesus.

''A deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people, together with a recognition of a divinely- given mission to Jews to witness to God's faithful love, lead to the conclusion that campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church,'' declares the document, ''Reflections on Covenant and Mission.''

-- Jeremiah (artleck@western.com), November 17, 2003.

Shalom Trifon L. Athnos, You mentioned bridges in your post, so we found that the Catechism teaches the following: "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was G-d...all things were made through Him and without Him was not anything made."Jn.1.1-3. The New Testament reveals that G-d created everything by the Eternal Word, His beloved Son. In Him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth...all things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Col.1.16-17 (Cat.292) "The Word became flesh is to be our model of holiness: Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me." I am the Way, and the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Matt.11.29, Jn.14.6 (Cat.459) Further she also states of Judah: "Cloud and light. These two images occur together in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living saving G-d, while veiling the transcedence of His Glory, - with Moses on Mount Sinai (cf.Ex.24.15-18), at the tent of meeting (cf. Ex.33.9-10), and during the wandering in the desert (cf. Ex.40.36-38, 1Cor.10.1-2), and with Solomon's at the dedication of the Temple (cf.1Kgs.8.10-12). In the Holy Spirt, Christ fulfills these figures." Cat.697 "In order to gather together scattered humanity G-d calls Abram from his country, his kindred, and his father's house, (Gen.12.1)..." (Cat 59)

Please note that G-d called Av'raham from his country, yet if Yeshua (Jesus) is the ONLY way, who called Av'raham and visited him? Who did Moshe speak face to face as well as see His back? Who was in the cloud and fire (Light)? Clearly, if Christ is the ONLY Way it must have been through Him for all things made were made through Him. Even our Catechism sees only Him in all these things:

"The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is ALREADY a RESPONSE TO G-D's REVELATION in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the Covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", Rom.9.4-5 "for the gifts and the call of G-d are IRREVOCABLE." (Rom.11.29) Cat.839

Further, this same source clearly affirms exactly when "all Israel" shall be saved:

"The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the "FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES" (being in) (Rom.11.12,25, cf Lk.21.24), will enable the people of G-d to achieve "the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST" in which "G-d may be all in all" (Eph.4.13, 1Cor.15.23). Cat.674

Therefore, from these texts we suspect our Church agrees with you (though it seems she is still trying to understand why all this is true herself) only she words this a little differently in Notras Aetate and is more careful in her wording as well. >>>Again, who am I to tell you anything? Further, how does the church explain Ezekiel 37:15-end of chapter? There are two houses of Israel that are to be unified just before the Messiah comes/returns. >>>

The Holy Roman Catholic Church does not speak much on "end times", unlike most Protestants groups, however she does speak of a reconcilation some time in the future between herself (Christianity) and Judah in Vatican II. We believe Vatican II was the first step in this reconcilation where she took the two staffs of Zech.11.7, grace/kindness and unions/pledges, from the hands of HaMoshiach (the Messiah) into her own hands to bring unity between these two houses. Yet as the Fatima prophecy foretold, this mission is a giant mountain with cross at its top and this we believe is explained in the story of Yosif (Joseph). Yosif married an Egyptian wife, and had two sons from her:

1) Manas'seh because "For G-d has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house". Gen.41.51 2) E'phraim because "For G-d has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction". Gen.41.52

From beneath the text, in the hidden meaning of the "sod" (PaReDes) we see Moshiach Ben Yosif (Messiah son of Joseph/Yeshua/Jesus) marrying the Goyim (Gentile) church to reach out and teach E'phraim (Is.28.11) and through this He gave them "rest, give rest to the weary; and this is repose" (Is.28.12 ie. the Gospel of St. Paul). Yet in Vatican II we believe these two sons were born. Manas'seh is visible in those who reject this council and the fruit that came forth from this making our Church's assent up that mountain all the harder. They are Manas'seh because they have forgotten that they were saved WHILE STILL SINNERS (my hardship) and they have forgotten their Father's house because Yeshua (Jesus) is the LION of JUDAH, not Israel!

And on the other side is our pope and those who side with him, E'phraim, that is those whom Yeshua is blessing with good fruit in this time of her persecution for her trust in Him and for listening to our Blessed Mother (land of my affliction). She is fruitful because she also opened with Vatican II the right for E'phraim to go back to His Word, His Scripture and defend her because as the texts of Is.28.12 also foretells, "they would not hear" which Traditionalist Catholics and many Protestants are guilty of. That is they would not accept mercy/kindness for any but themselves and would resist those unions/pledges that form the bridge you are seeking. Thus, E'phraim would do this "precept upon precept" of the Torah comparing this "precept upon precept" to the Catechism. They would dig deeper "measure upon measure" on the prophecies and hidden meanings, and infer this "measure upon measure" of her own Catechism and Councils, as well as the visions of our Holy Mother and other Catholic Saints. Finally, we believe they will absorb gleanings from the Spiritual Torah they have been using to defend her to fulfill the Word of G-d found in the Midrash that E'phraim will go into a cave of Gentiles ways only to emerge with the Torah in the end times to fulfill, Ez.37.15-end.

>>>Does this mean the church and Judaism will meld? >>>

All we can find evidence for is that she states they will reconcile.

>>>Perhaps if all of us, every man woman and child on the face of this earth felt remorseful, and asked for the mercy of the Creator there would be no need for even this suggestion toward a lasting peace with Messiah at the head. >>>

Our Church did so with her document "We remember" as well as through the actions of our pope, John Paul II in recent years. Yet the world has NOT listened because hasatan (the satan) doesn't want to see reconcilation anymore than the world accepted G-d's only Son when He came. Thus, we Catholics are told that like our Messiah, our Blessed Church "will enter the glory of the Kingdom ONLY through this final Passover, when SHE WILL FOLLOW HER L-RD IN HIS DEATH and resurrection" (Cat.677) and why the fruit of Vatican II (if we correctly understand these Scriptures) will be the death of the two witnesses of G-d and the "no-prophet" in one month, Zech.11.8, 13.6 (Moshiach Ben E'phraim- Messiah son of E'phraim-Talmud). Then and only then will the staff of mercy/kindness be broken and Purgatory will come to our earth in His Wrath and that brotherhood and reconcilation will be broken afterwards until He comes in glory with His church after these witnesses rise. And of Judah, "the rest were terrified and gave glory to G-d" Rev.11.13 for through this great miracle we believe they looked upon Him in those three witnesses pierced and wept for Him as for an only Son. Then He "will come, and all His holy ones with Him", Cat.677.

This at least is how we read those Scriptures in light of how we understand our Church's teachings.

Shalom, C & C

-- C.Foegen (cfoegen@angelfire.com), November 18, 2003.

There seems to be no end to the differences, there seems so few common ground answers. Yet, I still affirm that there may indeed be two Moshiach, 1 of Bet Joseph, and one of Beth Judah. The Left and the right Hands of the Creator, the mercy and the severity, the Two names:YHVH on the right, indicating Yahshua of Nazareth would be the first (His name so indicates) Elohim/El on the left, by the words of Yahshua and others, A person answerring the descriptions of Yahshua and the Prophets, with a name indicating this Left hand; Elian/ Elyon/ El Leon has been seen by the entire world. Rev. 3:12, 19:10-13, he bears a New name, that only He will know (rederred unto us by the Spirit of Divinity). Further If Messiah is to institute a government upon the entire world, would he not govern by the Torah law, as is stated of the kings of Israel in Deuteronomy? Also: Rev.12:17 These are they who KEEP the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah, I am convinced this points to the convenental law of which the church considers out of date and over with. I realize I seem to have brought some hard questionsto this endeavo, many of them may cause pain. Having gone through much of this myself, after vouching FOR Judaism over the church tradition, and recieving my 40 lashes ove a period of 2yrs. I feel as if another Grand Inquisition is about to begin here in the USA. If this be so, May God have mercy upon all of us. He knows I have tried my best to make the voice of mercy heard before the events begin. Shalom Alechem to one and all regardless of what religion they may be. B'Shem Yahveh Eloheynu uv'shem Yahshua Hamoshiach. A Messianic Jew is one who holds to the Convenant of Israel And has the testimony of Jesus Christ, the spirit of Prophecy. A Catholic is a member of the Universal Church, the bride of Christ, but only if she keeps her lamp full of oil, and her eyes ever watchful for her husbands' return. Yahshua did warn her through the parable of the brides. Keep the the Light of Shabbat shining brightly, but we must repent fully this means making amends for what we have done wrong visibly AND underhandedly.

-- Kolyahu ben Asher (trathnos@netzero.com), January 03, 2004.

Dear Me. There is a lot of Tweedle Deeing and Tweedle Dumming on this thread and I have to say that some of the Catholics are the nastiest of the bunch (I am one). But I know a fair amount of other Theology.

So To the Nature of the Messianic Jew. There have been Jews who believed that they could continue many of their Jewish practices after they accepted Jesus as their Messiah for a long time. But previously they tended to called themselves Hebrew Christians. They well understood the teaching of the Apostle Paul, as for instance as Found in his letter to the Ephesians, that Jew and gentle noe belong together in the Church. They also understood that the coming of the Messiah inaugarated the time when Gentiles also became full citizens of the Kingdom/Israel/Church on the basis of believing in the Messiah/Christ Jesus.

But them the doctorine of dispensationalism came into much of protestantism, which teaches that God has two peoples. Jewish Israel and a seperate Gentile Church. Messianic Jews differ from their fellow convert or completed Jews who call themselves Hebrew Christians in that they believe themselves to remain in this other Jewish/Israel dispensation. They deny full unity with Gentile believers in Jesus, they claim to live under a seperate covenant and in complete disobedience to the scriptures they differenciate between Jews and gentiles in their congregations. Very graciously I am sure they try and cover this over by accepting in gentiles and may even put on the side of their buildings Synagogue of Messianic Jews and Gentiles. But the Apostle Paul, speaking with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was quite clear. There is now neither Jew or Gentile. We are all one in Jesus Christ.

-- Bernard Davis (hostelireland@msn.com), February 18, 2005.

thank you for that Bernard

god bless you!

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.