Traditions/Scriptures

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Anyone who has faith cannot possibly reject the Scriptures or the Traditions and still call themselves "Belivers in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"! For if they do reject either one, they reject the whole because Tradition and Scriptures are one and the same. If you reject either, you are a heretic against God.

There is no one in this forum or on this planet-before, during, or after--who can prove the Word of God to be wrong. No one can prove Tradition/Scriptures to be wrong, nobody!

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003

Answers

All Protestants who reject Tradition must make an attempt to study Traditions, even if it means hiding in your closet until you understand the errors of your misguidedness. When you accept the truth, come out and spread the truth to all nations. Stop rejecting the Word of God.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


You must clarify what tradition(s) is for them, Rod.

Jesus attacks the traditions of his religion in the Gospels. So does Paul. I expect any scripture from these sources used against you.

There is also the traditon of how we became a Church. Maybe that is what you have in mind.

If you are trying to show the tradition behind each Roman Catholic belief because such and such a Church Father said so, you lost them. They won't be able to listen to you anymore.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


Ay!

THE ROCK ~ THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS : HUMAN TRADITIONS are man-made laws that can be changed. An example of a human tradition is Catholics not eating meat on Fridays during Lent. Celibacy for priests of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church is another human tradition, which any Pope could dispense, modify, or continue. SACRED TRADITIONS are considered part of the Unwritten Word of God, because it's been believed for centuries, since the time of the Apostolic Church, which refers to that period of time in Church history from the first to the second century A.D. It's called Apostolic, because the Apostles lived at that time. An example of a Sacred Tradition is the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary. A Dogma is a revealed truth that's solemnly defined by The Church ~ a formal doctrine that the faithful are obligated to believe. Although it's not explicit in Sacred Scripture, the Assumption of Mary means that Mary was assumed, body and soul, into Heaven by her Divine Son. Even though it wasn't solemnly defined until 1950 by Pope Pius XII, it's been believed (and Never Doubted) by Catholic Christians since the time of the Apostles. Other examples of Sacred Tradition can be found in the doctrines defined by the 21 General or Ecumenical Councils of the Church, from Nicea (A.D. 325) to Vatican II (1962- 1965). ~ Father Brighenti

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.


Elpidio, They already put ear plugs on when Matthew 16:18 was being proclaimed. And they stuck their heads underground when John 6 was being proclaimed (like ostriches).



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.


1 Peter 2:2 states "as newborn BABES, DESIRE the pure milk of the word, that you may GROW thereby,"

There is NO mention of Tradition.

Hebrews 5:12-14 "For though by this time you OUGHT to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes ONLY OF MILK IS UNSKILLED in the WORD of righteousness, for he is a BABE. But SOLID FOOD belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those WHO BY REASON OF USE have their senses EXERCISED TO DISCERN both good and evil."

Once again, NO mention of Tradition.

2 Peter 3:18 "but GROW in the GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

God requires that we understand His word for He PLAINLY states in 2 Timothy 2:15, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

The "word of truth" is the Bible. (See John 17:17).

Again, there is NO mention of Tradition.

Would God command something that is impossible? "Therefore do not become foolish, but UNDERSTAND what the will of the Lord is." (Eph. 5:17).

God wants ALL MEN to come to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH (1 Tim. 2:4).

The fact that God commands us to do these things shows that God Himself considers His word understandable.

Contrary to Catholic claims that one CANNOT understand His Word without an interpreter!!!

God made the mind of man and is fully capable of addressing man in words which we can understand.

The Bible which He delivered to man can be understood and to argue otherwise is to raise insult to Him and to impeach His wisdom.

Is God desiring the impossible?

God will judge all men by the Scriptures (Rev. 20:12).

Will God judge men by a standard which cannot be understood?

These things show that God's written word is indeed understandable.

He wants us to understand it; moreover, He expects us to understand it.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.



Hi Elpidio and James.

Here is the moment in this forum when I've placed myself in a corner. Now, I will be most critically scrutinized in my Catholic up-bringing. The Apostles Creed is deeply imbedded in my faith. We can now work backwards in Tradition from that point. But, I'm still reading and studying the continuations of that Tradition all the way up to the present. I think that Elpidio and I may have more in common than I thought, except of course for the "exalted" and "divinity" issues. Also, I do believe that many of me posts have revealed much of my doctrinal acceptances regarding Tradition. I am confindent that Kevin, David, James, and Elpidio can agree on particular Traditions. I speak of those which were put in writing to compose our Holy Bible. We just have to convince some of that reality.

rod..


-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


How does one get faith?

Is it by Catholic Tradition?

Or is it from the Word of God?

God says that faith comes from hearing His Word. (Romans 10:17).

Catholics couldn't prove that the ENTIRE Word of God is Scripture PLUS Tradition, if their lives depended on it.

It is the Word of God that "..is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword," (Hebrews 4:12).

Tradition CANNOT make this claim.

The "Sword of the Spirit" is the Word of God, (Ephesians 6:17) and NOT Tradition.

Catholics, like the Pharisees and Scribes before, make the word of God of NO EFFECT through their traditions which they have handed down. (Mark 7:13).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.


How does one get faith?
By hearing the Gospel and by living in obedience we grow in faith.

Is it by Catholic Tradition?
I suppose you mean Tradition that was used to compose the Holy Bible, yes.

Or is it from the Word of God?
The "Word" meaning Jesus Christ our Savior.

God says that faith comes from hearing His Word. (Romans 10:17).
Yes. Do you notice the word "hearing"?

Catholics couldn't prove that the ENTIRE Word of God is Scripture PLUS Tradition, if their lives depended on it.
Scriptures were in Oral Traditions before they were recorded in the Holy Bible.

It is the Word of God that "..is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword," (Hebrews 4:12). Tradition CANNOT make this claim. The "Sword of the Spirit" is the Word of God, (Ephesians 6:17) and NOT Tradition.
So are you saying that those believers who could not read or did not yet have the Bible could not be saved?

Catholics, like the Pharisees and Scribes before, make the word of God of NO EFFECT through their traditions which they have handed down. (Mark 7:13).
You need to consider who handed down those traditions when the Church became united as a "universal" Church, before you can blast God's Word.

rod..



-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


Very strong argument, Rod.

You are saying that The Traditions written WITHIN the Holy Bible itself must be accepted by all Bible believers for if they reject the Traditions within the Bible itself, they have rejected the entire Holy Bible.

Well, I am not surprised ... many misinterpreters of the Holy Bible are nit picky / very choosy ... tearing out verses, complete chapters, and pages off the Holy Bible ~ this is precisely how they came up with personally custom tailored 34,001 conflicting denominational doctrines which is contingent on their daily moods and solar and lunar ecclipses.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.


I wrote, "How does one get faith?"

To which rod replied: "By hearing the Gospel and by living in obedience we grow in faith."

No, it is by OBEDIENCE to the gospel that one is saved.

I wrote, "Is it by Catholic Tradition?"

To which rod replied: "I suppose you mean Tradition that was used to compose the Holy Bible, yes."

No, I mean by Catholic Tradition that was handed down "independent of the Bible".

I wrote, "Or is it from the Word of God?"

To which rod replied: "The "Word" meaning Jesus Christ our Savior."

No, the Word of God is what has been WRITTEN down for us in the New Testament.

I wrote, "God says that faith comes from hearing His Word. (Romans 10:17)."

To which rod replied, "Yes. Do you notice the word "hearing"?"

God says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16). We now have the inspired Word of God WRITTEN down for us. Since we do not have any more apostles to teach us "ORALLY", the only way we have now of "HEARING" their words is THROUGH THE MESSAGE THEY LEFT US in the Bible.

Surely one can read their words and OBEY them. If not, why not?

I wrote, "Catholics couldn't prove that the ENTIRE Word of God is Scripture PLUS Tradition, if their lives depended on it."

To which rod replied: "Scriptures were in Oral Traditions before they were recorded in the Holy Bible."

The Word of God was first handed down orally (until the written Word of God was complete) and then written down and PRESERVED for us in what we know now as the Bible.

I wrote, "It is the Word of God that "..is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword," (Hebrews 4:12). Tradition CANNOT make this claim. The "Sword of the Spirit" is the Word of God, (Ephesians 6:17) and NOT Tradition."

To which rod replied: "So are you saying that those believers who could not read or did not yet have the Bible could not be saved?"

No, I did NOT say that now did I rod???

I wrote, "Catholics, like the Pharisees and Scribes before, make the word of God of NO EFFECT through their traditions which they have handed down. (Mark 7:13)."

To which rod replied: "You need to consider who handed down those traditions when the Church became united as a "universal" Church, before you can blast God's Word."

I am NOT blasting God's Word as you falsely assert. What I am questioning and CHALLENGING is the fact that unwritten tradition was to continue to be handed down after the Apostles died. There is NO MENTION in the Bible that tradition would continue to be handed down once the written Word was complete. If this is the case, then you ought to be able to PROVE this beyond any reasonable doubt. It is the "Word of God" that EQUIPS us for EVERY GOOD WORK, NOT unwritten Catholic tradition.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.



I must totally disagree with you on this very majorly important phrase:"The Word of God". His Son Jesus Christ is the Word. It isn't the Bible. Every word and action that came from Jesus came from God. Jesus is the Incarnate Word. We must not make the Bible so iconic that we water down Jesus The Incarnate Word.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

We worship the Word, not the Bible.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


I didn't say we "worship the Bible"

The inspired writers of the New Testament said that God's Word was truth. (John 17:17). We now have the WRITTEN Word of God and this WRITTEN Word of God tells us EXACTLY what the Apostles taught. The Truth is WRITTEN down for us in God's Word, the Holy Bible. The Scriptures are the standard by which we will be judged in the last day. Rev. 20:12 says, "...And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS." (See also Rom. 2:16; James 2:12; John 12:48). We will NOT be judged by unwritten traditions, teachings of the Pope, legislations of the church, writings of the so-called church fathers, etc., showing that the Scriptures are the ONLY standard.

Ephesians 6:17 says, "...the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD."

Hebrews 5:12 says, "...For the WORD OF GOD is living and powerful, and SHARPER than any TWO EDGED SWORD, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit..."

Please notice that in Revelation 19:15 Jesus has a sharp sword that comes out of His mouth "...Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations."

That "sharp sword" is the WORD OF GOD which is WRITTEN down for us in the New Testament.

So the "Sword of the Spirit" IS the WRITTEN Word of God--the Bible.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.


Rev 12:20 is not a reference to the Bible. The "book" spoken of there is the allegorical "Book of Life" in which the names of the faithful are recorded, which John saw in his vision. It is first referred to in Rev 3:5 .. "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." John could hardly have been writing about the Bible as we know it, since it would not be compiled by the Church until 300 years after John wrote revelation.

The rest of what you wrote ... "The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God" ... "The Word of God is living and powerful" ... "is sharper than a two-edged sword" ... etc., etc., is all absolutely true. But there is nothing in any of these scriptures to suggest that the Word of God is restricted to what the Apostles happened to mention in their correspondence. That is purely your own opinion. In fact, every word Jesus spoke was the Word of God, from the very moment He spoke it. He didn't require an Apostle to mention it in a letter or a gospel in order for it to become His Word. His teaching would have been the Word of God even if no Apostle had ever written anything; and even if the Catholic Church had not gathered a number of its early writings into a book.

"So the "Sword of the Spirit" IS the WRITTEN Word of God--the Bible."

A: You haven't offered anything to support that conclusion. Everything you quoted simply says that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Period. And I agree with THAT statement 100%. THAT statement is from the Word of God. The idea that the Word of God is restricted to a handful of inspired letters and other documents is from your own modern manmade tradition, not from the Word of God, and not from the inspired teaching of His Church. Jesus told the leaders of His Church, "He who hears you hears Me". Note - "hears", not "reads". That's why the Bible does not claim to be the foundation of truth, but rather states that the church is (1 Tim 3:15).

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 09, 2003.


Paul writes, "Rev 12:20 is not a reference to the Bible. The "book" spoken of there is the allegorical "Book of Life" in which the names of the faithful are recorded, which John saw in his vision. It is first referred to in Rev 3:5 .. "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." John could hardly have been writing about the Bible as we know it, since it would not be compiled by the Church until 300 years after John wrote revelation."

Paul you are MISTAKEN when you say that the "book" spoken of there is the allegorical "Book of Life". The verse in question which is Revelation 20:12 states that the "books" were opened and ANOTHER book was opened which was the "Book of Life". The "books" that will be opened are the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" for we will be JUDGED according to our works BY the things which were written in the books EXACTLY as Rev 20:12 states.

Paul wrote, "The rest of what you wrote ... "The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God" ... "The Word of God is living and powerful" ... "is sharper than a two-edged sword" ... etc., etc., is all absolutely true. But there is nothing in any of these scriptures to suggest that the Word of God is restricted to what the Apostles happened to mention in their correspondence. That is purely your own opinion. In fact, every word Jesus spoke was the Word of God, from the very moment He spoke it. He didn't require an Apostle to mention it in a letter or a gospel in order for it to become His Word. His teaching would have been the Word of God even if no Apostle had ever written anything; and even if the Catholic Church had not gathered a number of its early writings into a book."

No Paul that is NOT my opinion but the TRUTH according to the Word of God. The Apostles PLAINLY stated in 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ," ONLY the WRITTEN Word of God is able to cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God!!!

I wrote, "So the "Sword of the Spirit" IS the WRITTEN Word of God--the Bible."

To which Paul replied: "You haven't offered anything to support that conclusion. Everything you quoted simply says that the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Period. And I agree with THAT statement 100%. THAT statement is from the Word of God. The idea that the Word of God is restricted to a handful of inspired letters and other documents is from your own modern manmade tradition, not from the Word of God, and not from the inspired teaching of His Church. Jesus told the leaders of His Church, "He who hears you hears Me". Note - "hears", not "reads". That's why the Bible does not claim to be the foundation of truth, but rather states that the church is (1 Tim 3:15)."

Really now Paul??? The idea that the Word of God is restricted to a handful of inspired letters (the Bible) is NOT from my own man made tradition as you FALSELY assert, but because God PLAINLY stated such in His Word. All things of the will of God are WRITTEN in the New Testament of Christ. (2 Tim. 3:16 17; 2 Pet. 1:3). It contains ALL that God has bound upon us and ALL by which we will be JUDGED.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 09, 2003.


"The "books" that will be opened are the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" for we will be JUDGED according to our works BY the things which were written in the books EXACTLY as Rev 20:12 states."

A: Well of course that interpretation is possible now, after the fact; but it could not have been the intent of the original writer, since the New testament did not yet exist when this verse was written; and it would be absurd to think that Christians would be judged only according to the Old Testament, without reference to the teachings of Christ. "ONLY the WRITTEN Word of God is able to cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God!!!"

A: So you say! Support it with scripture! If it is true, and if Scripture really contains the fullness of truth, then you should be able to show me a passage. You can't, because there is no such passage. It is still your personal opinion, completely unsubstantiated by scripture. Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more authoritative. I say the Word of God has full authority, whether it was ever written down or not! The speaking of the Word by Christ Himself gave full authority to the Apostles. Their writing it down did not give any further authority to what was already God's Word. And there is nothing in scripture to suggest otherwise.

"The idea that the Word of God is restricted to a handful of inspired letters (the Bible) is NOT from my own man made tradition as you FALSELY assert, but because God PLAINLY stated such in His Word. All things of the will of God are WRITTEN in the New Testament of Christ. (2 Tim. 3:16 17; 2 Pet. 1:3)."

A: 2 Tim 3 says Scripture is HELPFUL. That is certainly true, but it is MILES away from saying that Scripture contains the fullness of truth. 2 Pet 1:3 doesn't even mention scripture. I don't understand why you listed that verse??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 10, 2003.



First Paul writes, "Rev 12:20 is not a reference to the Bible. The "book" spoken of there is the allegorical "Book of Life" in which the names of the faithful are recorded, which John saw in his vision.

After I corrected him by saying, "The "books" that will be opened are the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" for we will be JUDGED according to our works BY the things which were written in the books EXACTLY as Rev 20:12 states."

Then Paul changes his tune after he realizes he made a mistake and now says, "Well of course that interpretation is possible now, after the fact; but it could not have been the intent of the original writer, since the New testament did not yet exist when this verse was written; and it would be absurd to think that Christians would be judged only according to the Old Testament, without reference to the teachings of Christ."

Please notice how he goes from that is NOT a reference to the Bible to now saying "Well of course that interpretation is possible now, after the fact".

Paul does ERR when he says it is possible now "after the fact" the TRUTH of the matter is that Scripture DID EXIST when this verse was written for the Apostle Peter PLAINLY stated in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that Scripture DID EXIST for he said, "as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has WRITTEN TO YOU, as also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand," This certainly sounds like Scripture to me!!!

I wrote, "ONLY the WRITTEN Word of God is able to cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God!!!" To which Paul replied, "So you say! Support it with scripture! If it is true, and if Scripture really contains the fullness of truth, then you should be able to show me a passage. You can't, because there is no such passage. It is still your personal opinion, completely unsubstantiated by scripture. Saying it over and over doesn't make it any more authoritative. I say the Word of God has full authority, whether it was ever written down or not! The speaking of the Word by Christ Himself gave full authority to the Apostles. Their writing it down did not give any further authority to what was already God's Word. And there is nothing in scripture to suggest otherwise."

My reply: Paul it is NOT "as I say", but it is as God says!!! In speaking of Jesus in Rev 19:15 there is mention of a "sharp sword" that comes out of His mouth, "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

What is this "sharp sword" that comes out of the mouth of Jesus???

In the Old Testament, Isaiah (Isa. 11:1-4) in speaking of Jesus, prophesied about how Jesus would "strike the earth with the rod of His mouth", this ROD is His words that He has spoken for Jesus even says in the New Testament in John 12:48-50, "He who rejects Me, and does not receive MY WORDS, has that which judges him--the WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN will JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

We have ALL of Jesus words that are required in order for one to be saved for what is WRITTEN is enough to produce faith. (John 20:29-31).

The words that Jesus spoke have been WRITTEN down for us in the NT and this is EXACTLY what will be the basis for our JUDGMENT just as Revelation 20:12 states.

I wrote, "The idea that the Word of God is restricted to a handful of inspired letters (the Bible) is NOT from my own man made tradition as you FALSELY assert, but because God PLAINLY stated such in His Word. All things of the will of God are WRITTEN in the New Testament of Christ. (2 Tim. 3:16 17; 2 Pet. 1:3)."

To which Paul replied, "2 Tim 3 says Scripture is HELPFUL. That is certainly true, but it is MILES away from saying that Scripture contains the fullness of truth. 2 Pet 1:3 doesn't even mention scripture. I don't understand why you listed that verse??"

My reply: People of every age have agreed what has been WRITTEN in the Bible is the Word of God. Paul plainly said that the words he spoke and wrote were the commandments of God: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 14:37). He wrote to the Thessalonians: "For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe" (1 Thessalonians 2:13). Paul also wrote to the church at Ephesus that "...by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" (Ephesians 3:3,4).

Our Lord Jesus Christ also testified that the Bible IS the inspired Word of God. He believed the Old Testament came from God: "Then He said to them, 'These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me"' (Luke 24:44). Even before the New Testament was written, Jesus said its message would be from God. He told His apostles: "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you in all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come" (John 16:13).

God not only gave the thoughts to the men who wrote the Bible, He also gave the words by which they expressed the thoughts:

"Then the Lord put forth His hand, and touched my mouth, and the Lord said to me: ?Behold, I have put My words in your mouth?" (Jeremiah 1:9).

"Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say" (Exodus 4:12).

"The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue" (2 Samuel 23:2).

"And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed" (2 Thessalonians 3:14).

Because the very words of the Bible are inspired, Paul was able to make an argument based on the singular (Seed) and the plural (seeds): "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed' who is Christ" (Galatians 3:16).

We must not add to, take away from, or change the Word of God in any way (Deuteronomy 4:2: Galatians 1:6-9; Revelation 22:18,19). When the Hebrew words in which the Old Testament was first written, and the Greek words in which the New Testament was first written, are translated correctly, we have the Word of God in the language into which the translation has been made.

The Bible is God's inspired Book, which provides for all our spiritual needs: "As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3).

The Bible is also the Book by which we will be judged at the Last Day. Jesus said: "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him - the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

You can either ACCEPT this FACT or REJECT it, the choice is yours to make.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 10, 2003.


Kevin-"Paul plainly said that the words he spoke and wrote were the commandments of God:"

St. Paul-

I Corinthians 7:6-9

"This is a suggestion, not a rule: I should like everyone to be like me, but everybody has his own particular gifts from God, one with a gift for one thing and another with a gift for the opposite. There is something I want to add for the sake of widows and those who are not married: it is a good thing for them to stay as they are, like me, but if they cannot control the sexual urges, they should get married, since it is better to be married than to be tortured."(The Jerusalem Bible)

I Corinthians 7:6-9.

"But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows. It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (KJV).

rod.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.


Just to make it clear that not everything St. Paul wrote was a commandment, as it seems to be implied earlier in this thread.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.


"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 14:37 / KJV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 10, 2003.


"Then Paul changes his tune after he realizes he made a mistake and now says, "Well of course that interpretation is possible now, after the fact; but it could not have been the intent of the original writer, since the New testament did not yet exist when this verse was written; and it would be absurd to think that Christians would be judged only according to the Old Testament, without reference to the teachings of Christ."

A: If you think I "changed my tune, you are no better at interpreting my words than you are at interpreting God's Word. In saying "that interpretation is POSSIBLE now", I certainly was not suggesting that such an interpretation is valid! In fact, it certainly is not a correct interpretation. I was only saying that such a MISinterpretation was not even POSSIBLE in Apostolic times, for the reasons given above, which you failed to respond to.

"Peter PLAINLY stated in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that Scripture DID EXIST for he said, "as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has WRITTEN TO YOU, as also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand," This certainly sounds like Scripture to me!!!"

A: If it does, you don't know the meaning of the word "epistles". The word means "letters", nothing more. Peter here says that Paul wrote letters that contained a lot of wisdom. There isn't the slightest hint that such letters were regarded as scripture. If you told Paul that his letters would someday be regarded as equal in authority to the writings of Moses and the Prophets, he would have accused you of blasphemy.

"I wrote, "ONLY the WRITTEN Word of God is able to cast down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God!!!" ... In speaking of Jesus in Rev 19:15 there is mention of a "sharp sword" that comes out of His mouth, "Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." What is this "sharp sword" that comes out of the mouth of Jesus???

A: The sharp sword is obviously the Word of God - obviously the SPOKEN Word of God; otherwise the analogy "out of His mouth" would make no sense at all. And since Jesus provided ALL of His teaching orally, and never wrote ANYTHING that we are aware of, the analogy makes perfect sense. Jesus then commanded his Apostles to PREACH and TEACH, passing on that same oral Tradition. He did not command them to write anything that we are aware of. It was only natural that they would eventually correspond with Christian communities they had founded, and that they would mention portions of God's Word in their correspondence. However, what they wrote about had authority because it was the Word of God, having come directly from His mouth. It did not take on any additional authority because they wrote it down.

"In the Old Testament, Isaiah (Isa. 11:1-4) in speaking of Jesus, For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

A: Right! And notice that this passage is entirely about SPEAKING, for that is how Jesus made His teaching known. Not a word here about writing anything down, or gathering it into a book.

"The words that Jesus spoke have been WRITTEN down for us in the NT and this is EXACTLY what will be the basis for our JUDGMENT just as Revelation 20:12 states"

A: Correction - SOME of what Jesus spoke was written down - specifically whatever had to be written in order to address the specific problems that were occurring in various communities. That was the reason Paul wrote to them - not to give them a complete handbook of Christianity, but to deal with immediate situations they were experiencing. The Bible itself tells us that the majority of what Jesus said and did is NOT recorded in writing.

"People of every age have agreed what has been WRITTEN in the Bible is the Word of God."

A: Actually not every age - only since the end of the 4th century, when the Catholic Church infallibly declared that a specific set of 73 writings were the inspired Word of God. Before that there was widespread disagreement over which writings were divinely inspired. Once the Church had finalized the canon, ALL Christians agreed that what was written in the Bible was the Word of God. Until the 16th century, when certain groups of men began tearing whole books out of the Word of God. In any case, the basis for accepting certain writings as divinely inspired and rejecting others was how closely those writings adhered to the oral Tradition of the Church, which was the Word of God even before it was written down, and which had been taught as the Word of God for 350 years before the Bible was compiled. And saying that these particular writings are the inspired Word of God does not deny that everything else Jesus said is also the Word of God.

"Paul plainly said that the words he spoke and wrote were the commandments of God: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord"

A: Well of course he did! He had heard this teaching from the Apostles, who had heard it directly from the mouth of Jesus. So obviously Paul knew that what he was writing down was the spoken Word of God.

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you in all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come" (John 16:13)."

A: Notice again the consistent references to "speaking", "telling". Why didn't Jesus says "when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will not inspire you to write by His own authority"?? Because writing was secondary. Preaching was the principle way the Word of God was delivered, particularly until the printing press was invented 1,500 years later.

"God not only gave the thoughts to the men who wrote the Bible, He also gave the words by which they expressed the thoughts"

A: That is incorrect. Otherwise, all the scriptural writers would have used the same literary style and the same vocabulary. It is obvious from the vastly differing styles of the various writers that the words they used were of their own choosing, reflecting their own ethnic background, level of education, and personal vocabulary. the Holy Spirit did ensure that the words they used were appropriate and accurate - but He did not dictate the words to the writers.

"Because the very words of the Bible are inspired, Paul was able to make an argument based on the singular (Seed) and the plural (seeds): "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed' who is Christ" (Galatians 3:16).

A: "Seed" is both singular and collective. "Abraham and his seed" obviously means "Abraham and his line of descendents". Consider this passage (and numerous others similar to it): "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?"(Matthew 13:27). Are you suggesting that this farmer sowed only a SINGLE SEED in his field, since the word "seeds" is not used here? "The Bible is God's inspired Book, which provides for all our spiritual needs"

A: If that were true, the Bible would most likely identify itself as the foundation of truth. Instead it identifies the Church as the foundation of truth. (1 Tim 3:15) No surprise, since the Church is what Christ gave us, and the Bible came to us later, through the Church. Indeed if it were not for the Church, the Bible would not exist. But even thenm the truth of Jesus Christ would still be taught by the Church, just as it was before the Bible came to be.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 11, 2003.


Paul writes: "If you think I "changed my tune, you are no better at interpreting my words than you are at interpreting God's Word. In saying "that interpretation is POSSIBLE now", I certainly was not suggesting that such an interpretation is valid! In fact, it certainly is not a correct interpretation. I was only saying that such a MISinterpretation was not even POSSIBLE in Apostolic times, for the reasons given above, which you failed to respond to."

My reply: There is NO error in my interpreting of Paul's words. Please notice how Paul said initially that the "book" in Rev. 20:12 was the "Book of Life". I corrected Paul when I stated: "The "books" that will be opened are the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" for we will be JUDGED according to our works BY the things which were written in the books EXACTLY as Rev 20:12 states."

Then after I said "Paul changes his tune after he realizes he made a mistake" now Paul makes an accusation "you are no better at interpreting my words than you are at interpreting God's Word." of which he could not prove if his life depended on it!!! First it was only the "Book of Life" and now after I told him that the books that would be opened were the OT and the NT then he says "that interpretation is POSSIBLE now".

Please explain Paul how you can go from saying that the "Rev 12:20 is not a reference to the Bible. The book spoken of there is the allegorical Book of Life" to NOW saying, "Well of course that interpretation is possible now, after the fact; but it could not have been the intent of the original writer, since the New testament did not yet exist when this verse was written; and it would be absurd to think that Christians would be judged only according to the Old Testament, without reference to the teachings of Christ."????

I wrote, "Peter PLAINLY stated in 2 Peter 3:15-16 that Scripture DID EXIST for he said, "as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has WRITTEN TO YOU, as also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand," This certainly sounds like Scripture to me!!!"

To which Paul replied, "If it does, you don't know the meaning of the word "epistles". The word means "letters", nothing more. Peter here says that Paul wrote letters that contained a lot of wisdom. There isn't the slightest hint that such letters were regarded as scripture. If you told Paul that his letters would someday be regarded as equal in authority to the writings of Moses and the Prophets, he would have accused you of blasphemy."

My reply: Since Paul is now stating that "there isn't the slightest hint that such letters were regarded as scripture" the burden of PROOF rests squarely on his shoulder to PROVE that the letters that Paul wrote were NOT Scripture. There is NO hint that the "letters" that Paul or any of the Apostles or the men who were inspired to write were anything other than the COMMANDMENTS of the Lord. Paul said that what he wrote were the "commandments of the Lord" hence these "epistles" or "letters" WERE scripture. Go back and re-read 1 Cor. 14:37-38, especially verse 38.

Jesus SPECIFICALLY commanded the Apostle John to WRITE to the seven churches in Asia in Rev. 1:11 so your statement "He did not command them to write anything that we are aware of" is NOT true. I never said the written word of God would take on any additional authority because the Apostles wrote it down. The Sharp sword is the WRITTEN Word of God for there is NO evidence that your so called tradition would ever continue to be handed down.

Paul wrote: "Correction - SOME of what Jesus spoke was written down - specifically whatever had to be written in order to address the specific problems that were occurring in various communities. That was the reason Paul wrote to them - not to give them a complete handbook of Christianity, but to deal with immediate situations they were experiencing. The Bible itself tells us that the majority of what Jesus said and did is NOT recorded in writing."

My reply: I have said that we do NOT have all that Jesus spoke or did written down for us for if we did, then this would be just as John 21:25 states. The Bible CLAIMS to be sufficient for the man of God for 2 Tim 3:16-17 SPECIFICALLY states, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." All Scripture INCLUDES the New Testament. In Matthew 24:35, Jesus says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Peter writes in I Peter 1:25, "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." In 2 Tim. 3:16,17, the apostle Paul affirms, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect [complete, whole], thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Nothing is left out; everything we need is furnished through the WRITTEN Word of God.

Paul writes, "Notice again the consistent references to "speaking", "telling". Why didn't Jesus says "when the Spirit of Truth comes, He will not inspire you to write by His own authority"?? Because writing was secondary. Preaching was the principle way the Word of God was delivered, particularly until the printing press was invented 1,500 years later."

My reply: Did the Holy Spirit guide the Apostles into ALL truth??? Yes or No??? If no, then please explain why the Holy Spirit did not do His job as Jesus told the Apostles He would do???

I wrote, "God not only gave the thoughts to the men who wrote the Bible, He also gave the words by which they expressed the thoughts"

To which Paul replied, "That is incorrect. Otherwise, all the scriptural writers would have used the same literary style and the same vocabulary. It is obvious from the vastly differing styles of the various writers that the words they used were of their own choosing, reflecting their own ethnic background, level of education, and personal vocabulary. the Holy Spirit did ensure that the words they used were appropriate and accurate - but He did not dictate the words to the writers."

My reply: If that is "incorrect" then Paul LIED when he said in 2 Tim 3:16, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God". If men were able to use words of "their own choosing" then the words that we have written down for us in the Bible did NOT come from God. The Bible is the plenary, verbally inspired, infallible, Word of God. The word "inspired" means the Bible came from God, NOT man. The word "infallible" means the Bible CANNOT teach error. The word "plenary" means ALL parts of the Scriptures are inspired. The word "verbal" means the very words (not just the thoughts) were given by God to the writers. The Bible came either from God or else it came from man. If it came from man, then it is NOT of God. The Bible clearly claims it came from God. Peter wrote: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20,21).

I wrote, "Because the very words of the Bible are inspired, Paul was able to make an argument based on the singular (Seed) and the plural (seeds): "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed' who is Christ" (Galatians 3:16)."

To which Paul replied, "Seed" is both singular and collective. "Abraham and his seed" obviously means "Abraham and his line of descendents". Consider this passage (and numerous others similar to it): "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?"(Matthew 13:27). Are you suggesting that this farmer sowed only a SINGLE SEED in his field, since the word "seeds" is not used here?"

My reply: Evidently Paul did NOT read the passage I quoted in Gal. 3:16 for this passage is SPECIFICALLY speaking of CHRIST and this is most definitely states that there is ONE seed. Paul, are you now going to argue with God???

I wrote, "The Bible is God's inspired Book, which provides for all our spiritual needs"

To which Paul replied, "If that were true, the Bible would most likely identify itself as the foundation of truth. Instead it identifies the Church as the foundation of truth. (1 Tim 3:15) No surprise, since the Church is what Christ gave us, and the Bible came to us later, through the Church. Indeed if it were not for the Church, the Bible would not exist. But even thenm the truth of Jesus Christ would still be taught by the Church, just as it was before the Bible came to be."

My reply: The Bible DOES identify itself (ALL Scripture) as being able to be used for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS so that the man of God will be COMPLETE and THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK. (2 Tim 3:16-17). If the Bible CANNOT do all of what God SPECIFICALLY says it can do, then you must prove that God did not mean what He said. Sorry, it was the Word of God which came first, NOT the Church as you FALSELY assert.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 11, 2003.


Kevin said, "There is NO error in my interpreting of Paul's words." and " I corrected Paul when I stated ..."

You are in NO position whatsoever to go around "correcting" holy and wise Catholic theologians like Paul who got indoctrinated in holy and wise catholic seminaries bearing the holy heritage of the Correct Teachings of the Holy Apostles for 2000 years. You CANNOT even get very Basic christian teachings right ~ most especially on the Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus (Jesus being 100%Man And 100%God) ~ believed by ALL christians for 2000 years. I HAVE PROOF THAT THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT WITH YOU FOR THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER EVER MALIGN THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST AND THE MOST HOLY MARY. The Truth is ~ your fanatical doctrine is deeply embedded with so many lies and errors. Correcting YOU is a Charitable and Righteous Act.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.


James wrote: "You are in NO position whatsoever to go around "correcting" holy and wise Catholic theologians like Paul who got indoctrinated in holy and wise catholic seminaries bearing the holy heritage of the Correct Teachings of the Holy Apostles for 2000 years."

So says James...I have told you before the ONLY thing holy about the Catholic Church are her doctrines which have NO basis in the New Testament of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus PLAINLY stated in 2 John 9, "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God." The Catholic Church MOST DEFINITELY does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ which is located in the pages of the NT so they do NOT HAVE GOD!!!!! James wrote, "You CANNOT even get very Basic christian teachings right ~ most especially on the Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus (Jesus being 100%Man And 100%God) ~ believed by ALL christians for 2000 years."

These make believe Christians really do NOT know what they are talking about. There is NO such thing as a "Eucharist" and Mary was ONLY a virgin until Jesus was born. After Jesus was born, she had sons and daughters EXACTLY as the Bible states.

Proof that Mary wasn't a virgin after Jesus was born:

Matt. 1:18, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit."

AND

Matt. 1:25, "and DID NOT KNOW HER TILL she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS."

Catholics claim to be successors to the Apostles, but God says in 2 Cor 11:13-15, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."

Yes, their end will be "according to their works"!!!

James wrote, "I HAVE PROOF THAT THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT WITH YOU FOR THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER EVER MALIGN THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST AND THE MOST HOLY MARY."

This is another ASSERTION that James could NOT PROVE if his life depended on it!!!! I just have to say BRAVO!!!!! for another assertion with NO proof offered!!!!!

James wrote, "The Truth is ~ your fanatical doctrine is deeply embedded with so many lies and errors. Correcting YOU is a Charitable and Righteous Act."

Well James, if you consider what you write "correcting me", then you really have been blinded to the truth haven't you??? If my doctrine is "deeply embedded with so many lies and errors" then why don't you get busy showing everyone here how my exegesis is faulty???

I CHALLENGE you James to start going verse by verse beginning with this thread of the posts that I have made and show everyone here how I do not speak the truth according to the word of God. This should be easy for you James since you obviously have the truth (according to you) on your side right??? If I am wrong, I will change, will you do the same if I prove you wrong???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 12, 2003.


I HAVE GREATER PROOF THAT THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT IS REALLY NOT WITH YOU FOR THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER EVER MALIGN THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST AND THE MOST HOLY MARY ~ AND YOU DESPERATELY CONTINUE TO DO SO.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 13, 2003.


Dear readers,

Please notice that James still does NOT offer any proof of his assertions and since this continues to be the case the ONLY conclusion is that his proof is ONLY in his mind.

God has PLAINLY revealed the TRUTH according to His word concerning these FALSE Catholic doctrines. To claim that Mary was sinless and there is a real presence in the Lord's supper (what Catholics call the Eucharist) is NOT the truth according to the Bible. Please go back and re-read some of my posts above concerning Mary and I have yet to have one Catholic PROVE that there is ANY real presence in the Lord's supper. This is another one of Catholicism's FAKE miracles that they use to try to justify themselves as the true church of Christ and nothing could be further from the truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 13, 2003.


The Most Holy Eucharist is Literally our Daily Bread.

Kevin continues to MOCK the Church of Christ ~ the Most Holy Catholic Church.

Please notice that Kevin still does NOT offer any proof of his assertions and since this continues to be the case the ONLY conclusion is that his proof is ONLY in his mind.

Mary is Most Holy and Kevin continues to malign her.

God has PLAINLY revealed the TRUTH according to His word concerning these TRUE Catholic doctrines. To claim that Mary was sinless and there is a real presence in the Lord's supper ~ the Most Holy Eucharist ~ is the TRUTH according to the Bible. Please go back and re-read some of my posts concerning Mary and I have yet to have one baby protestant PROVE that there is no real presence in the Lord's supper. The Most Holy Eucharist is one of Catholicism's TRUE miracles justifying The Most Holy Catholic Church as the TRUE Church of Christ and nothing could be nearer from the truth.

The Fullness of Truth and the Fullness of the Means of Salvation is in the Most Holy Catholic Church.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 15, 2003.


Dear readers,

You can see for yourself who is the party (James) who is NOT providing any proof!!!

I have provided biblical proof that Catholic doctrines are NOT in accordance with what God has revealed in His word.

James on the other hand has NOT provided one bit of scriptural rebuttal to what I have posted.

It is up to you to decide who is telling the truth.

James can (and most likely will) continue to be blinded by Satan and his false church (the Catholic Church) will you????

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 15, 2003.


The Most Holy Catholic Church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ.

When a Catholic goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist, he is fulfilling Our Lord's command to eat His body and drink His Blood in remembrance of Him.*

You can see for yourself who is the party (Kevin) who is NOT providing any proof!!!

Furthermore, when a Catholic goes to Communion he is receiving the most powerful Being in the entire universe and beyond. Jesus in the Eucharist is the one who created everything that can be seen and not seen.*

I have provided biblical proofs that Catholic doctrines ARE in accordance with what God has revealed in His word.

Moreover, when a Catholic opens his mouth or hold out his hands, he is receiving or holding the Author of all life.*

Kevin on the other hand has NOT provided one bit of correct rebuttal to what I have posted.

It is up to you to decide who is telling the truth.

Kevin can (and most likely will) continue to be blinded by Satan and his false church (his new esoteric protestantism) will you????

God ~ the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ is to be found in fullest possible earthly expression through the Bride of Christ, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The sacraments are essential to living a holy life, and the Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life.* ~ *Rick Strom



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.


James,

Please answer my post that I directed towards you on November 12, 2003.

I await your reply.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 20, 2003.


Elpidio and David are in AGREEMENT.

Elpidio said that the Church of Satan is Diametrically Opposed to the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church.

David condemned Kevin's "church" as Satanic.

Same Reply:

I HAVE GREATER PROOF THAT THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT IS REALLY NOT WITH YOU FOR THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT WILL NEVER EVER MALIGN THE MOST HOLY EUCHARIST AND THE MOST HOLY MARY ~ AND YOU DESPERATELY CONTINUE TO DO SO.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.


James,

I say again: "Please answer my post that I directed towards you on November 12, 2003. I await your reply."

You still have NOT provided PROOF that I have maligned anything.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.


Are you playing naive?

You keep denying your horrible blasphemies and malicious lies against the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Most Holy Eucharist, the Holy Pope, the Holy Saints, the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church.

THE 1620 YEAR OLD (Written, Sifted, Identified (382 A.D.), Assembled, Published, Correctly Interpreted, and Correctly Applied by the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church with the Guidance of the Most Holy Spirit), COMPLETE, MOST HOLY CATHOLIC BIBLE SAYS :

Matthew 5:26:
Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.


No james, I am NOT naive. Are you going to answer my posts james? Or are you going to continue to say that I have committed "blasphemy" with NO proof??? Where is your PROOF from the word of God that I am guilty of "blasphemy"???

Until you provide PROOF from God's word that I am committing "blasphemy" then you really don't have a leg to stand on. Your opinion (and that is all you have provided) is just that, an opinion and NOTHING more. Until you provide PROOF that I am guilty of committing these acts in which you accuse me of doing, then your words are NOTHING but YOUR opinion.

I am glad that we don't live in the dark ages anymore because I am CERTAIN that james and the Catholic Church would CONDEMN me as a heretic, and turn me over to the authorities to have me burned.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.


Are you going to ever comprehend the Simple Truth of the Sacred and Infallible Answers of the Most Holy Catholic Church to your posts Kevin? Or are you going to continue to DENY that you have committed grotesque blasphemies and villainous lies??? Where is your PROOF from the word of God that you are not guilty of blasphemy???

Jesus Christ is the Almighty enemy of those who spread lies against His Very own Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Most Holy Eucharist of the Most Holy Catholic Church.

Until you provide PROOF from God's word that you are not committing blasphemies and lies then you really don't have a leg to stand on. Your opinion (and that is all you have provided) is just that, an opinion and NOTHING more. Until you provide PROOF that you are not guilty of committing these acts of blashphemies and lies in which you are guilty of doing, then your words are NOTHING but YOUR opinion.

I am glad that we don't live in the dark ages anymore because I am CERTAIN that james and the Catholic Church would CONDEMN me as a heretic, and turn me over to the authorities to have me burned.

Don't be too glad and too sure that you have already escaped the Eternal Fires. Your Malicious and Unceasing Opposition to the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church is Greatly Frowned upon by the Most Holy Trinity, the Most Holy Family, the Most Holy Angels, the Most Holy Saints, and the Entire Most Holy Heaven.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.


james wrote, "Jesus Christ is the Almighty enemy of those who spread lies against His Very own Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Most Holy Eucharist of the Most Holy Catholic Church."

and then he wrote, "Don't be too glad and too sure that you have already escaped the Eternal Fires. Your Malicious and Unceasing Opposition to the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church is Greatly Frowned upon by the Most Holy Trinity, the Most Holy Family, the Most Holy Angels, the Most Holy Saints, and the Entire Most Holy Heaven."

Both of these are statements that james could NOT prove if his life depended on it.

No proof = FALSE ACCUSATION.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.


Kevin made so many false statements which he could NOT prove if his life depended on it. Kevin's Lack of proof = LIES and FALSE ACCUSATIONS.



-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.


David,

Here is another example of james MOCKING my words.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.


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