Lost our focus?

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In all these threads about the pro's and con's of the various church practices and whether or not they are "legitimate," I find it a little disconcerting that the person of Christ seems to be left out of the discussion or relegated to that of an innocent bystander.

Someone, quite mistakenly, mailed me a copy of "Latin Mass" a while back and I waded through the whole magazine full of high minded legal meanderings and never once, did I find a mention of "Christ." It was as though "Christ" has become something of a sideshow in their cause . . . and I have to ask myself is this what Christ really intended . . . especially when I find in the Gospels, Christ preaching that we needed to be innocent "like children" if we expected to share in his kingdom. I just don't see children caring, or understanding or being concerned with the endless babble that makes up so much of what is discussed here and I have to ask myself is this what Christ really intended.

I don't see "Christ" caring about the kind of things that we are fighting about, if anything I see Christ taking a whip and driving us all out of "his" church.

I read through the Gospels and I don't find the kind of vindictive "spirit" that I continually find in the threads that are posted on this "Catholic" forum . . . and I have to ask myself . . . "Have we lost our focus?" Are we really "his" Church any more.

I read through the Gospels and I find myself inserting "Traditional Catholics" in place of the word "Pharasee" and I am again disconcerted to see that it "fits." If Jesus had an ongoing contemption throughout the course of his short ministry, it was with the "Pharasees of the Church" and way that they interpreted their "faith traditions" and I wonder, have we become that which Jesus came to change? Have out own traditions and practices taken the place of the Spirit, he left to guide us?

This isn't a Vatican II question, this is a "Church of the Ages" question. I truely believe that we still have the essence of what Christ left us, safely withing the walls of our church, but have we added so much since then that we've made it hard to "see" or hard to "understand." Have we made it hard to be "Children of God?"

And I'm left to wonder . . .

Have we lost our focus?

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), November 07, 2003

Answers

Well said Leon.

God bless.

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), November 07, 2003.


Leon,

Some of the worst people I have ever met hide behind a facade of "holiness" using the "new gentlespeak" you seem to prefer. These people are clerics at numerous levels in the Catholic Church. By no means do I intend to imply that only clerics or only Catholics are evil.

The point is niceties are garbage when it is corruption of truth and serious injustices which are the topic of disagreement.

So if you are offended by heated arguments over matters of substance and find a harsh attitude among those you disagree with I would suggest you reread some of the comments by the "pillars" of this forum to get a more accurate understanding.

You would more correctly understand the "mind and heart" of Christ were you to counsel these "pillars" to cease their "whining" over repetative inquiries or disagreements over topics they consider insignificant, while they are far, far from insignificant to those who are struggling to live in a manner they understand as consistant with the teaching of Christ. The self-righteous "certainists" of their interpretation and pratice of authentic Catholicism in teaching and practice exhibit little, to me, of a Christ-centered understanding of humanity, its fragility, the precious nature of a wounded soul, the gravity of scandal even in apparently acceptable unjust practices present in the Catholic Church today which these self-righteous defend by referring to the inerrancy of Catholicism due to the promises of the Holy Spirit's guidance by Christ, or in the least a sincere pursuit of truth/justice.

You need to open your mind and your heart. You are losing the forest for the trees. Your guides are not Christ but mere idols presenting themselves as messengers of Christ.

karl

-- KARL (PARKERKAJWEN@HOTMAIL.COM), November 07, 2003.


Again . . . take out the word Pharasee and insert the name of Karl and see how it reads.

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), November 07, 2003.

"We had the misfortune of hearing from one person, Leon, who is definitely tending in the direction of neo-modernism -- and we need to rescue him. The poor guy is a recent convert from Lutheranism, and he may have been instructed by a modernist priest or with a textbook written by a modernist author -- or finally, he may have brought all that "baggage" into the Church and it hasn't been scrubbed out of his system yet.

When I said that "we" need to rescue Leon, I was referring to that huge mass of orthodox people (whom the quote in italics calls "balanced" and "mainline" Catholics) -- e.g. (posting on this thread), Eugene, Paul M, Mateo, Frank, and me."

With friends like these, who needs Traditionalists, eh, Leon?

-- jake (j@k.e), November 07, 2003.


Let's see // What are you talking about, Jake? Very murky for meaning, your post here. Unintelligible.

Ironically, the very question Leon is posing got ZERO reply. You seemingly haven't a clue. When's the last time you said the word Jesus? Or when did you mention Christ? The word Love? Or, as Leon wonders, are you still one of us; the "Children of God?"

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.



Eugene, Leon was referring to people just like yourself. You know, the so spiritually minded they of no earthly good type? Your way, or the highway? Believe you, or be damned?

-- You know who (pedestalknocker@vatican.gov), November 07, 2003.

the person of Christ seems to be left out of the discussion or relegated to that of an innocent bystander

Have we lost our focus?

No. Our focus always has, and always will be on Him: for instance, here, here, and here.

Amen.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 07, 2003.


When a Christian truly believes in Jesus Christ, no word of His can be dismissed as irrelevant. He said it emphatically to the Church: I am with you all days; even to the end of the world. It means the Catholic Church, to whom He spoke, was assured of His divine help through every trial and persecution, through good times and bad, through heresy and ''reformation'' alike, and would NEVER lose her focus, which is His TRUTH.

We understand the words of Jesus Christ. We let the doubters throw them away; like Faith. They have the truth, but say it's lost focus. They focus on ''earthly institutions'' to criticise; not their own false doctrines. They never focus on their own unholy origin, which is heresy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.


Greetings, Eugene!

We have not crossed swords recently but I see you are at it with your characteristic zeal. God bless you but methinks "Faith" is wasting your time.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), November 07, 2003.


She sure is, Karl ! It would really be a waste, but I'm heartened to see you were reading us up. That means many others are, at the same time. It's they who will determine who is in possession of Christ's Holy Gospel. A judgment Faith won't be able to dispel, not even if no one else confronts her. Her own words tell on her, Thank God.

These are witnesses to a truth which would have been hidden under the basket; and by arguing with Faith now the truth is up on the housetops in cyber-space! Lord above, be praised for your mercy!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.



"Was he [St. Paul] not Christian because he wasn't Roman Catholic?"

Dare I ask what the heck this means?

St. Paul was a Christian, because he was a Catholic.

----------------------

Leon, I appreciate your starting this thread. In my view, we must protect the authentic teachings of Jesus Christ and the Traditions of His Catholic Church. At the same time, it is paramount that we strive to imitate Him in everything we do, in order to unite ourselves (in joy and in suffering) to Him.

AMDG,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 07, 2003.


Matt:
Don't try to explain to her. It's no use.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 07, 2003.

Eugene,

You've got to admit, her come back was kinda cute. It certainly wasn't what I expected.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 07, 2003.


Every member of the Church Jesus Christ founded has been Catholic, beginning with the Apostles, because the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church He founded, and the ONLY Church He ever intended to be founded. I know Faith, I haven't "proven" that to you yet; but that's because you haven't sought the truth yet.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 07, 2003.

I repeat again . . . how are we imitators of christ in all that which we do, in that which we say, in that which we proclaim. Look at what has happened in this thread and see what I mean. We're so busy trying to be "SuperCatholics" that we just can't do Christ anymore.

If judgement happens today and this is all that we are left with, I fear for our souls and I pray for our church.

I'm in here because I want to learn. You present a different viewpoint about Catholicism, one that I can't get anywhere else, because quite frankly, all of the Catholics that I suspect are of traditional bent in our church, believe in going to Mass and being respectful of the Church to the ultimate degree, but they don't know how to talk about their faith.

I suspect at the bottom of all that goes on here is something that I can call upon for strength, but I can't seem to get it out of you. And so I wait for something to be said that will make me understand.

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), November 08, 2003.



Faith: All who *believe* in Christ and have been blessed with saving faith.

So the demons who "believe, and shudder" just haven't been given "saving" faith? What does this "saving faith" entail?

-- Catherine Nolan (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), November 08, 2003.


But of course we don't seem to think that a protestant could have the focus of the pharisees. What about Calvinists, Quakers, Amish, High Church Anglicans, Lutherans, or Methodists. Many of these groups are souly focused on traditions that they hold.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), November 08, 2003.

I don't see "Christ" caring about the kind of things that we are fighting about

Leon, lex orandi, lex credendi -- the law of worship is the law of belief..

Christ instituted the Catholic Church. If we don't practice the Catholic religion, we are abandon Christ.

The saddest part about these on-line fora and debates is that if you step away from the computer, look outside your front door, and take even the First Mark of Christ's Church -- that His Church is One, it's hard to see how the various Novus Ordo Missae parishes fits this mark with regard to worship.

The unity of worship of traditional Catholics -- taking the central feature of Catholic worship, the Mass, is self-evident. High Mass, Low Mass, the vestments, the vessels. Juxtapose this with the worship of the Novus Ordo Missae.

If we don't worship as He would have us worship, we are no closer to ultimate unity with Him in Heaven. Lex orandi, lex credendi. And yes, how we worship is enmeshed with how we LIVE in humble, unworthy imitation of Christ in this world. It matters.

Abortion? Divorce? Homosexuality? Family life? Work life? The case, I think, has been made that the Novus Ordo Missae and other innovations have gutted Christ's Church and sent the people spinning into chaos. Check the statistics. Or even better, tomorrow, stay after a Novus Ordo Missae Mass and ask some of the parishioners: "Do you believe Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist?" "Do we need to confess our sins to a priest?" "Is Satan real?" "Do you believe in angels?" "Can women be priests?" "Is divorce a mortal sin?" "Is abortion a mortal sin?" "Is homosexuality deviant?" Ask the children of the parish, as well as the adults. See if they are One. Do the same at other Novus Ordo Missae parishes.

Then, next Sunday, go to traditional Catholic parishes and ask the same questions. See for yourself who has unity of faith, worship, belief. I don't know that answers you will discover, Leon, but if you really want to see if any of this matters, turn your computer off and go out there and ask:

Do we believe as Christ would have us believe? Do we live as Christ would have us live? Then, how is this related to how we worship?

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.


"take even the First Mark of Christ's Church -- that His Church is One, it's hard to see how the various Novus Ordo Missae parishes fits this mark with regard to worship"

A: What? The 99.9% of Catholics who worship in accord with the current teaching of the Holy Catholic Church lack unity? While a small splinter faction who refuse to follow the teaching of the Church, pressure the Holy See into granting a reluctant indult, and then use that indult to keep themselves separated from the Catholic Church proper, are a sign of UNITY? Yeah Right! The Catholic Church patiently awaits the inevitable cessation of this nostalgic movement - or the withdrawal of the indult, whichever happens first - so that unity of worship may once again be restored.

"The unity of worship of traditional Catholics -- taking the central feature of Catholic worship, the Mass, is self-evident. High Mass, Low Mass, the vestments, the vessels. Juxtapose this with the worship of the Novus Ordo Missae."

A: Okay, let's do that ... Mass as the central feature of Catholic worship - CHECK! Vestments - alb, cincture, stole, chasuble - CHECK! Vessels - chalice, ciboreum, paten - CHECK! Even though such externals do NOT have anything to do with true unity of worship, they still remain unchanged in every Catholic Mass. So what's your problem with this?

"If we don't worship as He would have us worship, we are no closer to ultimate unity with Him in Heaven. Lex orandi, lex credendi. And yes, how we worship is enmeshed with how we LIVE in humble, unworthy imitation of Christ in this world. It matters."

A: And how did Jesus tell us to worship? Did He command us to translate our prayers of worship into Latin, or Greek, or any other language? Did He indicate what a priest should wear during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? Maybe to be safe, we should celebrate Mass just as He Himself did - gathered around an ordinary table, facing the congregation, dressed in ordinary street clothes, speaking in the vernacular, distributing Holy Communion into the outstretched hands of His disciples. Remember, immediately after celebrating Mass in that manner, He commanded, "do THIS in remembrance of Me". Then again, He also said that the Church has full authority to teach, guide, bind and loose in His name. So I guess if we just follow the Church's lead we can't go wrong.

"Abortion? Divorce? Homosexuality? Family life? Work life? The case, I think, has been made that the Novus Ordo Missae and other innovations have gutted Christ's Church and sent the people spinning into chaos"

A: This CLAIM has been made by the small but vocal pseudotraditionalist movement. No "case" has been made whatsoever. Interesting though that this little band of extremists consistently ATTEMPTS to present the appearance of such a "case" - just like Protestants do! When you separate yourself from the authority of the Church, whatever your motives, you are hard pressed to demonstrate that what you have rebelled against is BAD, because otherwise it is immediately apparent that your rebellion itself is BAD.

"Or even better, tomorrow, stay after a Novus Ordo Missae Mass and ask some of the parishioners: "Do you believe Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist?" "Do we need to confess our sins to a priest?" "Is Satan real?" "Do you believe in angels?" "Can women be priests?" "Is divorce a mortal sin?" "Is abortion a mortal sin?" "Is homosexuality deviant?" Ask the children of the parish, as well as the adults. See if they are One. Do the same at other Novus Ordo Missae parishes."

A: YES!! DO IT!! PLEASE!! But until you do, please stop offering your wild speculations about how other Catholics might respond. I could easily predict how my own fellow parishioners would respond to such basic questions on Catholicism and morality! They are Catholic! But you surely have no basis whatsoever for guessing how people might respond in my parish, other than your unwarranted preconceived notions. While you're at it, you might add a few other questions to your list, such as ... Does the Church have the right to define the current form of the Mass for all Catholics? ... Can a Catholic validly dissent from official Church teaching? ... Does an individual Catholic possess the authority to label an official Church teaching "invalid", or "inapplicable"? ... If so, what is the source of that authority? ... Are you required to submit to the authority of the Pope and the Magisterium in all matters which are not overtly sinful?



-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 08, 2003.


First Mark of Christ's Church -- that His Church is One, it's hard to see how the various Novus Ordo Missae parishes fits this mark with regard to worship.

The unity of worship of traditional Catholics -- taking the central feature of Catholic worship, the Mass, is self-evident

So your answer is... to quit obeying the church and start ANOTHER faction of malcontents doing their own thing instead of practicing the current rite of mass like the church tells them to? What a joke. The Tridentine wasn't the first rite of mass you know, but before now, Catholics have been faithful enough to do as the church commands and change to the new rite of the day.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 08, 2003.


Trotting out a list of sacrilegious deviations FROM the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass does not demonstrate any lack of unity in the Mass itself. That's like making a list of heresies to "demonstrate" the lack of unity in Catholic teaching. The fact that some individuals have abused the Mass by NOT celebrating it according to the teaching of the Church is not a condemnation of the Mass, but of the individuals who abuse it. Attempting to discredit something by listing the ways it has been abused amounts to an open admission that there is no legitimate basis for discrediting it. Like fundamentalists who come in screaming "HITLER WAS A CATHOLIC!" Give us a break! Incidentally, I could list for you some the abuses of the Latin Mass I have seen. But what would be the point? Everything sacred gets abused - even Christ Himself!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 10, 2003.

Does the Church have the right to define the current form of the Mass for all Catholics? ... Can a Catholic validly dissent from official Church teaching? ... etc

Probably all worthy questions, but we mustn't let Leon lose focus when he makes his inquiries. Are certain parishes worshiping as they should worship? Do they believe as they should believe? Are they living as Christ would have them live? Are they doing so in any unified way?

I tried to cite some Novus Ordo examples to the contrary -- statistical and anecdotal -- but the moderator deemed the latter inappropriate (which is fine by me).

So Leon, if you want to see why pre-Vatican II vs. post-Vatican II, Novus Ordo Missae vs. Mass of Pope St. Pius V matters, you can turn your computer off and go out there and check it out. See for yourself -- why are so many attracted to the Old Latin Mass? Who in my vicinity attends these Masses, worships in these parishes? Do they humbly strive to live a Christ-like life? If you wish to email me off-forum, I can suggest some parishes near you that you might give a look-see.

Then ask the same about your local Novus Ordo Missae (folk Mass, Spanish Mass, etc.) parish. Share with us here what you find. I draw no conclusions other than from my own experience, but if you want to discuss something concrete -- something to focus on -- go see if the endless debate really does matter to how people live their lives.

Or if the issue is mere "mention of 'Christ'" in these discussions (or Latin Mass Magazine articles), please clarify.

-- Jaime Esquierva (nobis_peccatoribus@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.


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