I have been asked a question by someone and really do not know how to answer it! They ask if they are commiting adultry or fornication if they have sex (or make love as they put it) with the one they are already engaged to but their wedding is not until 6 months from now. I said wait until your married, but they say they dearly love each other and also ask where God sets up the traditional marrige ceremony in the bible like he did with others. They say the bible talks about how to do sacrifices, or what to do on the sabbaths, unclean animals, laws pretaining ceromonies like the passover, etc. But never anywhere God says how to set up a marrige ceromony or even what marrige is. It just says stuff about people having sex to have sex lustfully. Like looking at a woman to lust after her while your married is adultry. Fornication having several different meanings and if it is talking about sex then it's only the people lusting after others and not love. It's always only about lusting after another which is sin.

Even in genesis God just says "a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh" But he doesn't speficy what marrige is. And wife meaning "helper, companion, or married to another" doesn't help much. WHERE IS THE SPECIFICS? Why doesn't God say what marrige is like he does everything else? It just seems like Both people have to really love one another and perform a MAN-MADE traditional ceremony.

Please someone help me help them!

-- Jason Baccaro (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), November 16, 2003

Answers

Response to Marrige, Sex, Adultury, Fornication?????

-- (top@top.top), November 16, 2003.

Believe it or not the answer is in the public domain. It is so obvious that, God help me for saying this, if you or your friends do not know it merely from the experience of living in a semi-civilized society then I would seriously have reservations whether or not the people in question are capable of understanding enough or taking it seriously enough to be married or engaged in the first place.

Good heavens.

Please note, nowhere in the scriptures does it describe how to bathe, how to eat(not what to eat, understand), how to breath...

Jason, read The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has many beatifulal and easily understood passages regarding the nature of marriage and what it means. Please read it. But a copy for your friends, its pretty inexpensive and well worth the investment.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

If they are not married they are committing fornication, whether their wedding is in six months or next week, or later the same day. It would be a shame to describe mortal sin as "making love". They would do better to refer to it as "having sex". Which is not to suggest that they don't love each other; however, having sex outside of marriage does not build love, it damages love. It places personal desire above the spiritual welfare not only of oneself, but also of one's partner. So, if they do in fact "dearly love each other" they would do well to protect each other from harm, rather than drawing each other into serious sin, which is the greatest harm a human being can experience.

The fact that the Bible doesn't specifically spell out the steps of the wedding ceremony is totally irrelevant. Such matters are determined by the Church, under the authority given to it by Christ, as clearly recorded in the Bible. However, if they are so interested in biblical guidance, the Bible states "Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge." (Hebrews 13:4); and "no fornicator will inherit the kingdom" (1 Corinthians 6:9); and that fornication is evil (Matthew 15:19). Seems like those verses carry a bit more weight than a description of a wedding ceremony.

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. (Ephesians 5:31) Note the sequence here: (1) they leave their former families; (2) they "become joined" to each other. Note - it does not say "they join each other", but they "BECOME joined to each other". Who does the actual joining? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore GOD has joined together, let no man separate."(Matthew 19:6). Once this has occurred, THEN (3) they may become one flesh. This is why sexual activity outside of marriage is so detrimental to relationships. The possibility of making two people one exists only when God has joined them together. Participating in a sexual relationship, not just without the benefit of being joined together by God, but in fact as an act of open defiance against God's stated will, cannot possibly bear good fruit. "Making love" joins two people intimately. Sin always divides, degrades, and injures.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 16, 2003.

Outstanding, Paul M.!

Jason, you should print this page and show it to your friends. They will either be struck dumb, realizing how wrong they are, or they will have weak objections that can easily be answered.

JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 16, 2003.

Hi jason

Your friend is on the right track in that he has faith in the Holy Scriptures. The question is: Is the Bible the full and only deposit of faith? We know that the Bible is oral tradition in written form. We also know that there is still more tradition outside the Bible, namely the tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible is simply part of that full tradition/deposit of faith.

Further to this, the Church continues to interpret this truth, this full deposit of faith, over time.

I agree with a previous posting, start with the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, it is after all the most updated form of Christian tradition we have.

-- Francois (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 17, 2003.

In order to realise if scripture deals with pre-marital sex for a couple who are promised to one another in marriage it might help to know of some of the customs of the day in Jewish antiquity/early Christian era which surrounded the time Jesus was born. In this way we might recognise signs in scripture that indicate to us whether “making love” before marriage for a “betrothed couple” was acceptable.

Mary was betrothed (Mt. 1:18) to Joseph. Jewish custom dictated very rigidly, how a betrothed couple were expected to conduct themselves. I don’t think it can be argued that Joseph was a righteous man (Mt. 1:19) and followed Jewish law (faith) to the letter. Once a woman accepted a marriage proposal from a man, a formal legal period of betrothal soon followed wherein the couple’s arrangement to marry was formally recognised by society and strict rules under Jewish law were expected to be adhered to. When betrothed, the couple were considered “married” for all intents and purposes, accept in the physical sense.

“When Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found to be with child, Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.” (Mt. 1:18-19).

Even though the two were betrothed to one another and not officially yet married, Joseph is referred to as “husband” and has the power to “divorce” Mary for her apparent infidelity. It is clear that under Jewish law Mary was expected to be faithful in abstaining from sexual relations at least with anyone else other than Joseph or be exposed to suffering the penalty under that law - death by stoning (Deut. 22:21-23).

It is also clear that Joseph wasn’t having sexual relations with Mary since he immediately knew the child wasn’t his. As an devout Jew, in abstaining from sexual relations with Mary, he was living out his faith. Joseph’s reaction to Mary’s pregnancy tells us the custom for an upright and devout couple of the day was not to engage in “making love” before they were “married”, which only came after the couple moved in together to begin their “married” life.

Additionally, from writers in ancient times scholars know it was Jewish custom that if the “husband” died during the betrothed period, the woman became known as a “virgin widow”. Why would she be called a “virgin” during the betrothed period unless she was expected to remain chaste which included abstaining from sexual contact with her betrothed “husband”?

As if all this weren’t enough, scripture tells us flat out, the betrothed couple weren’t having sexual relations. “Behold, the “VIRGIN” (ie. no intimacy with man) shall be with child and bear a son...” (Mt. 1:23). “He (Joseph) had NO RELATIONS with her until she bore a son...” (Mt. 1:25). “The VIRGIN will give birth to a son.” (Isaiah 7:14). These passages from scripture not only tell us that scripture has been fulfilled in relation to the virgin birth of God; but also, they serve as a clear indication of the customs of the day for couples who were betrothed to one another in marriage - that they did not indulge in pre-marital sexual relations.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), November 17, 2003.

Re: Jason Baccaro, Paul M and Ed.

While I find these examples enlightening and wonderfully written, it seems Jason’s question hasn’t been fully addressed. So I will try to offer some words of advice.

What do you say to a couple that is promised/engaged to be married (6 months, 3 months, a day or even a few hours) regarding having sex (before marriage)?

To simplify the question, I would offer both your answers as grounding and tell to refrain from sex until the two become one, in front of God and man. I would also advise them that a marriage is more than sex and if they truly love each other, then waiting for the Wedding Night starting from the point of this conversation (knowledge and confession) would be a wonderful test of their faith in god and their love for each other.

Through my own observations this website is rattled with Civil divorce and annulment questions, which is a serious thing to think about, but should not be a continuing topic after a couple is married. Where’s the advise for preventing these sort of things? Married couples do have a place in the church and should advise in these matters, but is there any one among us with all the answers?

-- JohnQ Public (John@aol.com), November 17, 2003.

Everone has great answers and seems to know more than i do, but the one thing i can say is that i was once that woman. In a relationship that i was having sex before the marriage! And later i found out how damaging it was but not with a price i had 2 kids and was married 10 yrs. to relized i married this man for the sex! Now i am divorced and have became a Born Again Christain and i am in a new relationship and building on what the bible says and i can say after 1 yr. together and no sex its the best relationship i have very had he's my soul mate. We still hug, kiss, and show each other we love each other just no sex. My advice if you can go with out it long eough to go to church then gods worth it so you can wait till gods choice for you to become one; remember god no's all and god no's the beinging to the end.He has all the answers just turn to him, he had a plan for you the day he made you in you mothers wound. I will pray for them God Bless to all.

-- Dee Harris (ritekindawrongme@aol.com), November 30, 2003.