Hello everyone. I have recently decided to join the Catholic Church coming from a Baptist background, and received this in an email from a friend (who is obviously a staunch Baptist). Please help me with writing a rebuttal and enlightening him with the truth about God's Church. Thank you!

"From a point of detachment, I see the decision to jump from a Protestant to Catholic belief as one of self-restriction and potential abuse. It is possibly a step backward. I say this because if the abuses of the Church had not been so onerous, Martin Luther et. al. would not have said 'enough' and broken away from it. Now having said that, it is conceivable that the apparent lack of abuses (such as witnessed by those who joined the Reformation) in modern times, could beg the question from some observers about 'returning to the fold.' In essence, returning to the Catholic Church is in a way, a step backward in faith.

Joining with the Catholic Church from a Protestant denomination is obviously a subjective thing and should not be done without fully questioning why there is a need felt to do so. The obvious question is what can be accomplished through membership with the Catholic Church that can not also be accomplished through membership with one of the Protestant denominations?

Problem areas that must be reconciled when making such a move from Protestantism to Catholicism may be small in number but large in importance of faith. A major stumbling block for many is the concept that the Pope is infallible. No man but Jesus has ever been infallible, so where does this place the belief in the Pope?

Another point of contention is the worship of Mary and her placement on an almost equal plane as Jesus. ( I have heard that there is a movement within the Catholic Church to place her on an equal footing with Triumvirate.) Regardless of the official explanations given about what Catholics are doing, the fact is, many do worship and pray to Mary (and or her statue).

Another problem for non-Catholics is the Catholic belief that celebration of the Lord's Supper is actually partaking of Christ's blood and flesh instead of a symbolic, spiritual communion with God. When Jesus had the last supper with the disciples, he was still in the flesh as a man. As he lifted the wine and said that this was His blood there is no mention of the wine literally turning to blood (his or anyone else's). He also mentioned that this was the last fruit of the vine that he would partake of until taking his place in Heaven. If this was actually his blood, as the Catholics believe, then why would He make mention of it being fruit of the vine? If it was not actually his blood, then that mean's that it is indeed a symbolic act through the spirit.

Beyond the major core belief issues with Catholicism there are other underlying concerns. One of these is the concern involving the sinfulness of man and the potential for the Catholic hierarchy to (inadvertently?) lead people astray. If it was possible to do this in the past, and it was, then it is also true today. (The widespread priest scandals and subsequent coverups over the last few decades are especially disturbing and indicate that some things may have never really changed after all.)

Understand that there are many levels of priesthood between the grass root level parish priest and the Pope. Because of this, there has been great potential for the existence of many levels of corruption which are covered up and/or never reach the level of the Pope. Again, a basic wariness of the sinfulness of man is at the heart of this distrust. A primary belief in the Scripture as the basic source of God's message to mankind, alleviates the potential for this kind of abuse."

-- Amy (amcarthur77@aol.com), November 17, 2003

Answers

Hi Amy,

I am also in the process of conversion. I am leaving the Episcopal church for the Catholic Church. You can find some great information on the subjects your friend raised on catholic.com.

One thing that amazes me is the Protestant view that it is dangerous to follow the pope. I think we all would agree that their is only one set of truths in life. The question is how do you discover them. Do you discover it on your own like the sola scriptura crowd. What if you are illiterate or poorly educated? Are you then doomed to sin unknowingly as you stumble to understand God's teachings. Do you follow the interpretations of God's teachings through people with a bit more knowledge? Should you trust your eternal soul to Jim Baker? What about Jimmy Swaggert? Isn't it a terrifying prospect that you could be lead astray either by blindly trying to interpret what is right on your own with your limited experience or relying on an individual minister/priest who lives in today's world and is so far removed from the actual teachings and times of Christ. Doesn't it make the most sense to trust the vast armada of scholars who knew Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and Latin. Wouldn't it be best to trust the Apostles who actually knew Jesus during His time on earth? Would you trust Billy Graham over St. Peter? Would you trust your own interpretation over St. Paul? That is what Martin Luther would recommend.

John Paul II has been pope for 25 years and has never infallibly declared a new Doctrine. Infallibility on the behalf of the Holy Father has to be claimed. He can only claim infallibility in matters of Doctrine involving Faith or Morals. He has yet to do so. That is because the Church Doctrine is a constant. That is refreshing to me.

The Eucharist is viewed as the TRUE body and blood of Christ. He is timeless and we participate in His sacriface with each euchrist. If it is symbolic why bother.

I am learning about Mary as well. She was chosen by God to give birth to Him. She is not to be worshiped but certainly deserves our profound respect. Some anti-catholic sites and faiths seem to want to demean her. Showing disrespect to a woman who was chosen by God to give birth to Him is heretical IMO. I feel that the disrespect shown the Saints is the same. Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints. You don't have to do so but many do. Sometimes you are not sure what to ask for and feel a Saint may know a better way to phrase it and intercede on your behalf to God. It could be that you are ashamed or in awe of God and feel more comfortable speaking through a saint.

All men are sinners. The Church is filled with sinners by definition. What has happened is a scandal and you should know that the Church view is that priests who bring scandal to the Church are dealt with very severely after death.

Another thing that is interesting regarding protestants (I am still one until the Easter Vigil) is that most denominations are strickly a US phenomena. We get a distorted view of Christianity in this country. The vast majority of Christians in the world are Catholics and up until 1517 ALL Christians were. Our country is a democracy and that is reflected in 10,000 protestant denominations. The Body of Christ is not a democracy. He makes the rules not us. Sola Scriptura folks can read anything into the Bible. Judge Rutherford of the jehovah's witnesses has decided you can't have a blood transfusion. The newly ordained Bishop Robinson (Episcopal) feels that being a divorced and now gay priest is OK. John Smith founder of the Mormans tells us that scripture proves pologamy is ok but any use of alcohol isn't. See the chaos?

Welcome to the Church. If you are like me you won't be disappointed. The more you learn the more belief you will have.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), November 17, 2003.

I dont have much time and iam sure someone else can answer you better then i can but ill try to help you on a few things as best i can. Also if you have a Cathloic book store near you try and pick up a set of books by Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham called begining apologetics it has lots of information that will help you with defending your new faith! Iam sorry i dont have anymore tiem to write as i have work... Iam sure someone else will post!

Welcome to teh Cathloic Church!

KeV

-- kevin wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.met), November 17, 2003.

amy, since i was forced to attend protestant service when i was young (and at a strong anti catholic church, i might add) i'll take a crack at knocking down a few of your friends concerns.

I say this because if the abuses of the Church had not been so onerous, Martin Luther et. al. would not have said 'enough' and broken away from it.

news flash: martin luther never left the church, nor did he intend any split to be made. he was excommunicated for handling publicly what could have been done in private, but he died trying to regain favor with the catholic church and in full knowledge of the fault of his ways.

it is conceivable that the apparent lack of abuses (such as witnessed by those who joined the Reformation) in modern times, could beg the question from some observers about 'returning to the fold.' In essence, returning to the Catholic Church is in a way, a step backward in faith.

when one has accidently gone astray, it is best to "step backwards in the faith." if the catholic church is right, and it is, then returning to it is not a step backward, it is you returning as the prodigal son returned, coming back to the house of your Father.

Joining with the Catholic Church from a Protestant denomination is obviously a subjective thing and should not be done without fully questioning why there is a need felt to do so.

youre friend must not respect you very much if he doesnt think youve thought all of this through. perhaps you might want to point out that youre a responsible thinking person.

The obvious question is what can be accomplished through membership with the Catholic Church that can not also be accomplished through membership with one of the Protestant denominations?

simple: communion with the ACTUAL Body and Blood of Jesus, membership in the church established by Christ, possession of the fullness of truth (how can he say any protestant denomination holds truth when they ALL disagree?), proper reconciliation of sins, an accurate interpretation of the holy bible because it is influenced through the Holy Spirit.

A major stumbling block for many is the concept that the Pope is infallible. No man but Jesus has ever been infallible, so where does this place the belief in the Pope?

startlingly enough, youre friend is somewhat right. i would consider it a stumbling block if we catholics thought the pope was infallible too. the pope is a sinner, just like everyone else on earth. what the pope possesses, though, is infallable dogmatic interpretation. that is, when the pope is relating anything on dogma, his choices and words are guided by the Holy Spirit. there have been many bad popes, and yet not one of them has ever introduced a dogma which was false.

Another point of contention is the worship of Mary and her placement on an almost equal plane as Jesus.

there is not one catholic in this world who worships mary. do we recognize her sacrifice as important in the life of Jesus? yes. do we respect her for her position as the mother of God? yes.

( I have heard that there is a movement within the Catholic Church to place her on an equal footing with Triumvirate.)

your friend has heard wrong.

Regardless of the official explanations given about what Catholics are doing, the fact is, many do worship and pray to Mary (and or her statue).

many catholics do pray to mary. one major issue inherent in protestantism is a lack of fullness of worship. to a protestant there can only be one form of worship: prayer. this is not the case. in fact, prayer is merely a means of communication. worship CAN lie in prayer, but does not always. when we pray to mary, we ask her to pray to us. why? because we know that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. but wouldnt you think that having the prayers of the mother of God to her own Son in your favor be a NICE thing to ask for? so do we pray to her? yes. but we do NOT worship her.

Another problem for non-Catholics is the Catholic belief that celebration of the Lord's Supper is actually partaking of Christ's blood and flesh instead of a symbolic, spiritual communion with God.

Jesus tells us "take this and eat it, this is my Body." and again, "take cup and drink from it, for this is my Blood." he also says "unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you shall not have life in you."

how, then, can your friend proclaim the spiritual communion with Christ as merely being symbolic. in this case, i would take the word of Jesus over the word of your friend.

When Jesus had the last supper with the disciples, he was still in the flesh as a man. As he lifted the wine and said that this was His blood there is no mention of the wine literally turning to blood (his or anyone else's).

so, youre friend doesnt believe that God could be in the flesh and yet give up his flesh at the same time? you might point out how his beliefs limit the power of God, while the catholic belief gives a fullness to it. you also might point out that this teaching was hard for others to accept, and many left the church because of it. if Jesus was telling people it was 'just' his spiritual Body and Blood, why couldnt people accept it?

Beyond the major core belief issues with Catholicism there are other underlying concerns. One of these is the concern involving the sinfulness of man and the potential for the Catholic hierarchy to (inadvertently?) lead people astray.

oh save us dear Lord. does your friend really mean to imply that catholics are all sinners and not one baptist preacher has EVER sinned? the sinfulness of man is found everywhere on earth, as is the potential for any church to lead people astray. look at the 30,000 conflicting beliefs of the protestant churches. i would be willing to bet that more than one of them is leading people astray with man made traditions.

(The widespread priest scandals and subsequent coverups over the last few decades are especially disturbing and indicate that some things may have never really changed after all.)

ah, yes, the sinfulness of man means you shouldnt be a catholic??? heres a fact for your friend: the catholic church has the lowest PERCENTAGE of abusive priests of ANY religious denomination out there. that includes the baptist faith. if you want to talk sheer numbers, of course catholics have the most, theres 1.2 billion of us. but lets not point out the sawdust in your neighbors eye, while the baptist ministry has a higher percentage of abusing pastors.

that should pretty much cover all of those complaints. if he comes back with more, let me know.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 18, 2003.

If this was actually his blood, as the Catholics believe, then why would He make mention of it being fruit of the vine?

If Jesus calls Himself "the vine" at the Last Supper then what do you think "the fruit of the vine" is?

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), November 18, 2003.

Hi Amy

I have a very close friend that is Baptist. When we met, 3 yrs ago, she stated categorically that I wasn't Christian because I worshiped statues etc...

It wasn't long after that we were travelling to a concert some 6 hours away and had a chance to talk. I systematically went through all her issues with the Church and over time she has recognised my faith as important and significant. Today she even admires the Pope!

She had a lot of misinformation that needed explaining. I asked her had she read any Catholic documents on Mary? On the Papacy? She had read none. How could she then say these things if she had never made an effort to educate herself? It was interesting because I then asked her questions about her faith, and she couldn't answer.

I think if your friend has a willingness to discuss and listen, then with a bit of patience you can explain our faith to her and dispel the rumours.

-- Franc (francois.de-fleuriot@unilever.com), November 18, 2003.

Good thread!!!

Welcome to forum newcomers, Amy, David F, and Franc.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), November 19, 2003.

Thank you everyone for the responses. I'm getting the email together now and hopefully, it will change my friend's perspective. God bless you!

-- Amy (amcarthur77@aol.com), November 20, 2003.