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Is it just me or are people afraid of dealing with issues today. I was on an e-mail list recently where a discussion started about Democracy. It got a little deep, and I do mean a little, and all of a sudden people started bailing off the list like we were committing murder. It seems to me that people just would prefer to be insulated from anything that makes them think. Just look at the chat section of Homesteading Today. A discussion takes off and first thing, you have people ranting about how their leaving the board because of all the people "ruining things". I honestly don't get it. It just seems that people today cannot deal with anyone having an opinion which they believe passionately about. We are a nation of fence riders. And it has very little to do with personal insults. Most of these people consider it to be a personal insult to express an opinion at all.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@itlnet.net), November 19, 2003

Answers

The problem is, that the internet is NOT the movies. People cannot expect to change over everyone to suit themselves. The internet is a voluntary activity. If they don't like it, they don't have to participate in that discussion. It never ceases to amaze me, that people go to a controversial post and read it when they don't like controversy. Then those same people try to make all those posting their thoughts feel like they just killed their favorite dog, because they don't like controversy. It is like someone who hates baseball going to a baseball game, hanging out, and then trying to change the rules to suit his or her self. My advice for people who do this, is start your own message board, then things will always be as you want them. That is basically why I start this board. I didn't want to deal with Countryside anymore, and nobody else seemed to be doing it the way I liked, so I started my own. However, when I go somewhere else I have to live with things being different than I particularly want. Then I am under someone elses rules. Now I happen to enjoy a good debate. I allow people to mostly say what they want here, because I know that nothing they say can change me, or my beliefs and values. There are not words that can make me feel less about myself, because my esteem comes from God. He esteems me, so other's esteem is not important to my self-worth. That doesn't mean I don't value other people's opinions. However, what they say can never touch who I really am.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@brightok.net), November 20, 2003.


"Further, any objective person who is honest with themself has to admit to their own fallibility and proneness to error and with that in mind its pretty hard to arrive at any firm stance about just about anything"

I know this is the way you feel John, but I think it is sad that you do. First of all I want to say, that I am not trying to pick a fight, just point out a basic difference. What you are expressing above is so true when you base your stance on your life experience. That is exactly the reason that there has to be an ultimate authority. I believe that issues are black and white, because they are not right or wrong not according to my life experience, but rather according to God's Word.

I would go so far to say that most people whether they are posting on a message board or dealing with life in general, don't want things to be black and white. They prefer grey, because then they don't have to make a decision. I think it scares them when someone chooses a side. I think that is why what I was speaking about above is happening.

See, things happen when you choose a side. If there is a white,then conversely there must be a black. If there is a right, then conversely there must be a wrong. If a man can do good, then conversely man can also sin. If there is a heaven, then also there is a hell. If there is sin, then there also must be grace.

By not picking a side, people insulate themselves from ever feeling in the wrong. Because man does not want to recognize his own fallibility, as you stated above. Man does not want to deal with ever feeling in the wrong, which is why man does not want to face God with his sin. Because if he is wrong before his Creator, then he must live within the guidelines his Creator laid down to deal with his sin. And that my friend, is why people don't want to arrive at any firm stance.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@brightok.net), November 24, 2003.


Actually I kinda miss the old days on CS. Honestly, that was possibly the purest community I've ever experienced, for a while. It was neat to see people weigh in on all sides of an issue, without resorting to name calling, for the most part. I think we got to cover some interesting issues, and ultimately respect each other more for it.

I believe God speaks to us through his Word.

1 John 4:15-21 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

The only time "Satan" and "fear" are used in the bible it is in Job and in all three cases it speaks of Job fearing God.

I believe that God gave his Revelation to man in his Word. I don't think however, that I can quibble over something you say happened to you. I will say that if God actually spoke to you then it would have to be written down as canon. However, I do believe that God leaves impressions on our minds and heart through his Word, and through the proclamation of his Word.

I can also say that the test of whether something is Godly is whether it lines up to his Word. Many times the Bibles speaks of satan as being a real creature. Never does it speak of him being an emotion or feeling. It says he is the father of lies. John says to test the Spirits:

1 John 4:1-6 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Anyway, the simple truth is, that what matters is not my interpretation of scripture, or your interpretation of scripture, all that is important is God's interpretation. However, would you not agree wholeheartedly with me that I must pursue my interpretation ardently, as to turn aside is for me to turn aside from God himself.

Romans 14:5 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans 14:11-14 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

So I guess what I am saying, is that assuming you came to a point in your life when you asked Christ to be the Lord of your life, and believed on him, then for me our points of contention are minor as both of us will give an account.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@brightok.net), November 26, 2003.


John, actually I really wasn't trying to poke holes in your statement. I was trying to show what direction my thoughts were taking on this. The simple truth is, I don't believe in continuing revelation. However, my point was that just because you do, doesn't mean it has to be a point of contention between us. My point was simply that for me scripture is the ultimate authority on which I base everything. Whether it is considering your experience or any other person's experience. For me, if it doesn't line with scripture, then it's source isn't from God. This is any subject, not just the one you mentioned. However, for me it is not a personal issue. It is an issue of going to the source. My faith is based on the Bible. Therefore God's Word is the source of what I believe. When I believe in something, I can't just pick and choose the parts I wish to believe. I either believe it or I don't. In other words I Can't believe in the God of the New Testament without also believing in the God of the Old Testament. They are one and the same. By the same token I cannot believe in one verse without believing in all the verses. Each one is built one on top of the other. Like a house of cards, if I ignore one I ignore them all. If I trust one, I trust them all. I can't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, if I don't believe God created the earth. I can't believe that God is love, if I also don't believe that He parted the Red Sea. I am sorry if I came across like I was attacking what you believe to have happened to you. What I was really saying is that across the board when anyone comes to me and says, "Lo, he is in the desert", those are the principles and verses I apply. Only you can apply those verses, and others to your own situation.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (littlebit@brightok.net), November 28, 2003.


Well i could spend an hour outlining the biblical basis for not believing in Continuing Revelation, but this website is much faster:)

http://www.knowtruth.com/bible/bible_final_1.htm

Final Bible

-- Little Bit Farm (
littlebit@brightok.net), November 29, 2003.



I know part of the problem with General Chat on Homesteading Today (besides the spambot "phantom" members) was not so much the strong opinions expressed, but that many, including registered members, could never refrain from calling someone a name, or adding some snide remark. When someone has to stoop to insults, they've made their point--and that is that they weren't worth reading in the first place. Supposedly requiring registration was going to cut down that stuff to zero, and it hasn't, which is another reason, I think, that they made GC invisible unless you are registered. And when any type of moderating was done at all, then others complained....I guess you just can't win as a moderator.

Although I guess some people want to go to the internet like you go to the movies-- to escape from daily life for a while, and maybe they have enough of these discussions at work? Sometimes also, the same people talk/write about the same things, and few or no new opinions get in because of registration requirements so the group itself gets boring. I know several forums that have gotten that way. I occasionally pick up interesting bits here and there from "read only" sites, but not enough to make me want to register.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 20, 2003.


As far as fence sitters are concerned, I can relate. Alot of people are afraid of going off half cocked, being distrustful of ANY of the information they get from any source because you can plan on it not being the whole story, thus the unwillingness to commit to any but the most general stance.

Further, any objective person who is honest with themself has to admit to their own fallibility and proneness to error and with that in mind its pretty hard to arrive at any firm stance about just about anything. But they say the devil is in the details and that really seems to be true.

In the end its just another persons opinion, mine, yours or who evers.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 23, 2003.


As far as controversy goes, I think it has more to do with the way something is said than it has to do with what is said. Intentional disrespect for example is usually good for a flame fest and alot of complaining and for good reason.

I read alot of things I don't agree with and generally it won't get me upset unless its so non-sensical and unsupportable that its ridiculous. Its always useful tho to remember we are not our thoughts, opinions, or even our feelings.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 23, 2003.


Little Bit, theres some truth in what you say however you may have noticed that I'm not afraid of conflict when I feel confident I'm on the side of the angels.

This reminds me of the old days on CS!!!

I've repeatedly tried to make the point that while there "may" be a black and white version of everything we see, because I and most of us see thru a glass darkly I'm not qualified to assert my vision is THE true one nor is anyone else for that matter but alot may think they are.

You say "That is exactly the reason that there has to be an ultimate authority. I believe that issues are black and white, because they are not right or wrong not according to my life experience, but rather according to God's Word."

I've repeatedly said that even tho the Bible MAY be inerrant, and I'm not saying it is, its certainly no guarantee my (or your) understanding of it is equally inerrant. Thats an obvious and self evident truth. Its inevitable that we MUST fall back on our own understanding of the bible just as we must make the decisions for our respective lives, albeit with its guidance if we choose. Sure, sometimes we will get genuine guidance from God, but he usually answers in His time, not mine. In the meantime we go foreward, applying scripture or spiritual understanding as best we can in our glass-darkened condition. Its unavoidable IMO. Its a simple recognition of the way things are.

I don't blame you for not believing this but several years ago God told me in no uncertain terms, without ambiguity, that "Satan is the fear of love." That experience has at least as much relevance and truth in it for me as the bible or any other scripture does, yet its not enuf to say God said it so it must be so. Where "we" come into the picture is learning what it means. Everyone can read the bible and everyone will agree it says this and that. The trouble comes when we ask, "OK, its says this and that and we're agreed, but what does this and that actually mean and how is it applied to our life?"

Thats a very important distinction IMO. While I grant that it may mean something very specific and it may have an un-nuanced interpretation, it will still be up to us to understand it the best way we can.

If I were to ask you "What do you make of God saying Satan is the fear of love?", assuming you first believed He did indeed say that, then you may ponder the question and come up with a whole different take on it than I have and I've been pondering on it for nearly thirty years. I may think I have a better understanding than you because of my frequent visitation to that thought, and maybe I do in fact, but I truly can't say for certain because there are often layers of understanding to many of these things, and more often than not we don't see them all at once.

The bible is no different IMO. As many people who read it will inevitably get a different understanding of it and thats just the way things are.

Further, I think its in ecclesiastes(sp???) where it says there is a season for ALL things. Thats too opens the door for alot of "grey area".

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 26, 2003.


Yeah, I agree with your comments about CS. The good old days fer sure.

I don't have time to address your entire post but I'll comment on a coupla things.

First was the scripture about testing the spirits. I knew that was coming actually. Like I said, I don't blame you if you don't believe it but had you "been there" there would be NO DOUBT in your mind as to the source. It was confirmed repeatedly thru several methods later.

I know the bible doesn't say satan is the fear of love but that doesn't mean its not so. I happen to believe emotion and spirit are very closely related. I could build a pretty good argument to support that if I had more time.

I would like to suggest, instead of trying to poke holes in what I contend God said to me,you instead apply it to scripture and see if you gain any insights from it. I can almost guarantee you will.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 27, 2003.



Don't sweat it. I wasn't offended and wasn't surprised either and that's not a cut or condemnation.

But when you say you don't believe in continuing revelation you may as well say you don't believe in humanities capacity to grow and learn in the ways and nature of God. The revelation unfolds, like a flower does when the conditions are right and it unfolds within us, individually and collectively in the same way. Nature is funny that way---its variations of the same theme ad infinitum. Our understanding grows and so does the revelation.

Even if our stepping off place and initial point of reference is the bible, our understanding should and must grow, because it will ultimately lead us to UNIVERSAL light. If our understanding doesn't grow I'd say we're a lost cause in the cosmic scheme of things.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 29, 2003.


I'm not sure you get my point Little Bit.

I think we'd agree---God is God---presumably unchanging as His truth is.

What does change howeever is the depth and breadth of our own understanding of the same timeless truth. In that sense the revelation continues to unfold. Its an individual thing.

Without it, why do you continue to read the bible? You're already familiar with its contents. Is it not to further your own understanding? And when you see thru the glass more clearly has Gods truth changed, merely because you've gained a greater insight into things or has your own vision become more clear? The revelation continues to unfold. Its the same truth or set of truths and they are timeless but we see with new eyes. We see more deeply and more clearly.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 29, 2003.


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