Baptism: Acts 2:38

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Readers,

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

Acts 2:38 :: New International Version (NIV) Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 :: King James Version (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Acts 2:38 :: English Standard Version (ESV) And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 :: New King James Version (NKJV) Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Then Peter said unto them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 :: New International Version (NIV) "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 10:43 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB) "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 10:43 :: King James Version (KJV) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 :: English Standard Version (ESV) To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 10:43 :: New King James Version (NKJV) To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

Acts 10:43 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) To Him all the prophets bear witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003

Answers

Acts 10:43 tells us we SHALL receive the remission of sins when we BELIEVE. Acts 2:38 says to be baptized because of the remission of sins, not in order to attain remission of sins because Acts 10 plainly tells us what gives us the remission of sins.

Both cannot give remission of sins. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ and not of works.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.


Yes baptism is symbolic, just like the Lord's supper, and symbols don't save. Yes baptism is important, but it just doesn't save us.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:21 / KJV

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

The first thing Satan always attacks is the Word of God. It was the first thing he attacked in the Garden of Eden and the Word of God is still the first thing he attacks today. His tactics have not changed a bit. He keeps using the same old strategy over and over again on fresh batches of people. As generations come and as generations go, he repeatedly deceives the nations in the same way. In the beginning, God told Eve, "Do not eat of the fruit of the tree..." and Satan came along and said, "Did God really say 'Do not eat of the fruit of the tree'?" He managed to persuade Eve that's not really what God meant.

Satan asks people the same question today, "Did God really say you need to be baptized to be saved?"

The answer is, "Yes, He did."

It should be noted full well, that God is a God of order, light and truth, not one of confusion and darkness. By giving us the scriptures, God wants us to understand and see. His purpose is not to confuse. If we see everything that God is telling us about baptism and its essential need, we see the perfect order and harmony in these scriptures. If baptism is necessary then it is not hard to see the wonderful agreement, conformity, and synchronization of these scriptures. They all fit together perfectly, like pieces of a puzzle.

If baptism is not necessary, and if we accept the critics "explanations", we see confusing meanings, contradictory commands, clashing explanations, and conflicting instructions, along with a schizophrenic God that can't make up his mind about anything He is trying to tell us. We end up understanding less than when we started!

But God is not a God of confusion but one of order. To those who may be more aware of the spiritual battle that rages around us:

If baptism is as important as I am making out, if it is when we become saved and God forgives our sins, then wouldn't you just expect the devil to set up every argument he could against the need and necessity of baptism?

Would you not expect him to resist and attempt to persuade the world that one does not need to be baptized into Christ? He does not just roll over and die without a fight. And if we were to consider what arguments to use to deceive people what arguments would they be? It is a grave mistake to remove the essential necessity of baptism from the gospel message! Jesus started His public ministry by being baptized Himself and He ended it by commanding the Apostles to baptize and teach disciples as they went into the entire world. There are many people who have a deep and sincere faith in Christ. Yet, because the Word of God does not capitulate to the teachings of men, these people are being held at the "one yard line" by error (to use a phrase from the sport of American football). Though they sit on the doorstep to the kingdom of heaven, they have not yet entered in.

If Jesus were on the earth today I believe Christ would say something like, "You are not far from the kingdom of heaven. You lack this one thing. Go and do this to fulfill all righteousness."

Do not be like the foolish who, though they were at the very door, remained locked out. Christ died a painful, excruciating, humiliating death for us. Consider the words of Isaiah the prophet concerning the Christ. All Christ asks is we be baptized into His name to experience His resurrection and victory over death (and then follow Him for the rest of our life). He died alone on that cross and was separated from God for us. Being unified with Him in His death is the only way to be unified into His life.

Baptism is a simple and easy thing to do.

It is time to put aside human teachings and traditions of men and follow the scriptures alone as our sole source of truth. For those people that have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ but have not yet been baptized, I urge you to do so immediately. Don't let the devil hold you at the one-yard line. You are so close. Get over that line. Being baptized is such a small thing. It takes a few moments. God has done so much for us and does not ask for much in return. Being baptized is a small thing to do in return. Christ set us an example Himself, and He commands it as well. It is the perfect measure of faith and action working together. Faith that God will forgive your sins and add you to the kingdom of heaven and to His body and new life.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Yes baptism is important because our Lord commands it. But it does not save us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.


David,

Baptism DOES save for Mark 16:16, "He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED WILL BE SAVED", Acts 2:38 "...repent, and let every one of you be BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS;" 1 Peter 3:21 ALL teach that BAPTISM SAVES.

Disciples of Christ are made by being BAPTIZED for this is also EXACTLY what Matthew 28:19 teaches.

The devil wants us to believe that we can be saved from our sins simply by praying the sinner's prayer or that one is saved by "faith only."

But the idea of praying our way into Christ or being saved by "faith only" is NOT in the Bible.

It CANNOT be found!!!

There is NOT ONE EXAMPLE anywhere in the Bible of an alien sinner being forgiven of his sins by praying the sinner's prayer or that one is saved by "faith only"!!!! A person is translated INTO Christ when they are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST. Every time the phrase "into Christ" appears in your Bible, it is ALWAYS preceded by the word "baptized", WITHOUT EXCEPTION. (See Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27).

What must one do to be saved from their sins? One must hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, for faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). One must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16). One must repent of their sins (Acts 2:38). Repentance is a change of mind brought about by godly sorrow, resulting in a reformation of life and is accompanied by restitution whenever possible. One must confess their faith in Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:32-33). One must be baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2:38). One must remain faithful till they die (Revelation 2:10). A person who has not been baptized in order to receive the forgiveness of their sins is a person who is still lost in sin.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.


Kevin, do you also believe that only your denomination's baptism is the only valid one? I get this claim from an article you posted "Are Denominational Baptisms Valid". Now, it is bad enough to say that baptism saves, but do you that only your preachers can do this "soul saving" task?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.

I tell you, prove there is 30,000 denominations. Listing names is not enough. I want full beliefs and want you to show where these imaginary denominations conflict with each other. If you cannot back your imaginary numbers, then don't use them. And preferences don't count either.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 30, 2003.

"You don't know how to do a simple "google search"? Why is it so hard for you to believe?"

Yes I now how to do a simple google search and all I find is lies.

"You can't even agree with your Protestant buddy on Baptism."

No we don't agree on baptism. Strange, both of you do. And so do Oneness Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventist, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses.

"How can I teach you about Confirmation not just a rite of passage but bestowal of the Holy Spirit for strenghtening if you can't agree on the basics?"

Tell me, what are the basics?

"You need to repent and come home to the Catholic Church."

I am in the church of Christ. I don't need the Roman church.

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" 1 Corinthians 1:2 / AV

I am in the middle. Kevin claims his church is the only biblical church. Roman Catholics claim there church is the only biblical church.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 30, 2003.


Acts 11 12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: 13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 30, 2003.


This the following mean anything anymore?

James 2:17-20

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and trmeble.

But wit thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Authorized King James Version

.......................................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 30, 2003.


rod, I agree with James. Are we saved by FAITH ONLY?

Read what I wrote about that on the 29th.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 30, 2003.


Wow! Kevin. Your writing style changed quite drastically. You actually sounded like a real caring person and not a pre-programmed dude on a bike riding across the neighborhoods. My compliments to you, Kevin.

I'm referring to your post where not a single Bible verse was used, but instead you spoke from your "Kevin" side.

[excerpt]
"The first thing Satan always attacks is the Word of God. It was the first thing he attacked in the Garden of Eden and the Word of God is still the first thing he attacks today."

.......................................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 30, 2003.


Titus 3 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 01, 2003.

Here is that theme again:

"...we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. "

.............................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 01, 2003.



1 Peter 1 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 01, 2003.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 01, 2003.

Acts 22:14-16? above---

1 Peter 3 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 01, 2003.


In Acts 22:14-16, our sins are washed by "calling on the name of the Lord."

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 01, 2003.


Here is my “for” case for baptism. I’m going to use 2 sources that believe “for” to mean “because of” in Acts 2:38 so that no one accuses me of cheating. My words will be Italicized. The basic problem with those who wish to translate “for” to mean “because of,” is that they are doing just that—trying to define an English word, not a Greek one. We will see that the word eis has many meanings, but it is never used to mean “because of.”

First, from blueletterbible.org

Lexicon Results for eis (Strong's 1519)

Pronunciation Guide eis {ice}

Part of Speech prep

1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

"For" (as used in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness...") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery", "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works.

I agree that the English word “for” can have these two meanings. However, we are not translating the English word, but the Greek “eis.”

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 1774

AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 322; 1774

Notice that “because of” does not appear on this list. This is because the Greek word “eis” cannot be translated to mean “because of.” Eis can be translated to mean “for” sometimes, but “because of” never.

The second source is from Salvation Not in Baptism. Again, my words are in italics

Those who would use Acts 2:38 to prove baptismal regeneration, are basing their proposition on a preposition. The little Greek word "eis" is here translated "for," but is translated in the New Testament in the following ways and number of times:

"against," 25, "among," 16, "at," 20, "for," 91, "in," 131, "into," 571, "that," 30, "on," 57, "to," 282, "toward," 32, "unto," 208, and "upon," 25.

This list is slightly different from the one provided by blueletterbible.org, but notice “because of” never appears in this list either.

So you can see that they are making a foolish mistake to base a vital doctrine on a little 3 letter preposition that is translated in so many different ways. The baptismal regeneration crowd interpret "eis" "for" in Acts 2:38 to mean "in order to," thus causing a person to be baptized "in order to" be saved or to received remission of sins.

Anyone who has read the threads in this forum that even touch on baptism will know that this “doctrine” has much more basis than a 3-letter word. In fact, we only resort to Greek words when the plain scriptures are ignored.

Let us notice how that "eis" is used in Matt. 12:41. "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." They repented not "in order" to Jonah’s preaching, but "because of" the preaching of Jonah.

I hope you caught the trickery involved here. Indeed, the word eis does appear here, but it isn’t translated as “because of.” The English “because they repented” reads in Greek “hoti metanoeo,” not “eis.” If eis could ever mean “because of,” this would have been a great time to demonstrate it. However, eis is translated as “at.” “So what?” you say. “Nineveh still repented because of the preaching of Jonas, not “in order to.” Actually, they didn’t.

“At” is in reference to a location, either a physical one, in time, or direction.

“Because of” is in reference to a purpose or account.

Do a synonym check. They are not paired together.

Here’s an example: I am driving west one day along a HWY. I see a speed limit sign—the posted speed is 60mph. Well, the road is all but mine, so I press the car to 70mph, and cruise casually, enjoying the scenery (unless I’m near Nebraska). From out of the Bat Cave comes a HWY patrol officer. Thankfully, he has the mercy to pull beside me and warn me to slow down instead of pulling me over immediately. Nervously, I slow the car down to 60mph and continue on.

Now, did I slow down because the Officer told me to? No. I slowed down AT the words of the officer BECAUSE I didn’t want a ticket. At tells you when. because of tells you why. You might say “If you didn’t want a ticket, you should have heeded the speed limit sign.” Can a sign give you a ticket? No. So I had no fear of receiving a ticket from a sign (until technology improves), regardless of what it says. I didn’t slow down at the officer’s words because he told me to, but because he has the power to do what I fear—pull me over. The men of Nineveh repented because they did not want the punishment Jonah described to happen to them. At Jonah’s words (when), they repented because they did not want God to destroy them (why).

So it’s easy to see that eis does not mean “because of” ever. The “For” in Acts 2:38 does not mean “because of.” Remember we are trying to translate the Greek word, not the English one.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.


Neither of my links worked. I started typing my responses on Word for editing then pasting them here, but hot links (not the dog) get played with. Here they are again:

blueletterbible

Salvation not in Baptism

As I was looking at this second site again, I noticed other verses that they supply containing eis. I think it's easier to read when the quote is in italics and my words are regular font. So I'll do that from now on.

"In Matt. 3:11, you have baptism eis repentance. Eis cannot mean in order to there, but because of repentance."

Actually, the verse reads, "I baptize you with water for repentance" (NIV) or "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance" (KJV). The problem with the writer of this article is that he assumes we (the pro-baptism group) dogmatically state that every use of eis means "in order to."

"In Romans 6:3, you find the expression baptism eis the death of Jesus. Eis cannot mean in order to there, but must mean because of; both because Christ was already dead and raised again, and because in baptism we declare that we died with Him, and have been raised with Him."

Both the KJV and the NIV translate eis here as "into." Let's see what happens when we insert "because of" into this passage.

Romans 6:3 (according to this article) Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized because of Christ Jesus were also baptized because of his death?

Do you see how "because of" totally alters the meaning of this passage? Quick definition check for into Webster Defines 'Into'

Again, "because of" ceases to function in this scripture.

"In I Cor. 10:2, we have the expression eis Moses. Eis cannot mean in order to there, because they were not baptized in the cloud and in the sea in order to get Moses to be their leader, but because he was their leader. He had already led them out of Egypt."

The Hebrew people were not free from the Egyptians until they had crossed the Red Sea and Pharaoh's army drowned. According to Exodus 13 and 14, they were guided by the Lord in a pillar of fire and of cloud before they ever reached the sea. So, it could be argued that Israel did not begin their new life until they had been baptized in cloud and the sea. The timing of Moses' title of Leader doesn't matter, because this passage speaks nothing about leadership. Again, insert "because of" where eis is and see if the meaning changes. It does ;-)

Just as the story of Noah, this brings up a great OT foreshadowing of the NT.

The article's writer summerizes "If baptism eis repentance in Matt. 3:11 means be baptized because they repented, if baptism, or be baptized eis the death of Christ means be baptized because Christ died and we died with Him, if 'were baptized eis Moses' in I Cor. 10:2 means they were baptized because Moses was their leader, then it follows conclusively that 'be baptized eis remission' in Acts 2:38 must mean be baptized because your sins have been remitted."

I've addressed the verses he used, and so his conclusion is invalid.

"In Mark 16:16 we find the emphasis is on believing. It does not say, 'he that is baptized not shall be dammed.' Their argument here is very weak. The saved by water crowd pass over what they do not want to believe. They often quote Acts 2:38, but you will never hear them quote Acts 3:19. 'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out...' Since it does not mention water or baptism, they never find time to quote it at all."

The writer obviously has no clue as to what baptism is, nor the history, and therfore pits baptism against believing, as if they are totally seperate, and only one can be the way. If someone was baptized but did not believe, obviously they would not be saved, but the writer is trying to make an illogical "formula" twist. Acts 3:19 has a lot more than meets the eye. A parallel between 3:19 and 2:38:

Repent ye therefore... Repent

and be converted (and turn to God)... and be baptized

that your sins may be blotted out... for the forgiveness of your sins

Before you get on me that being converted and being baptized are NOT the same thing, THINK!!! How did a person enter Judaism besides birth? By being baptized. Who was Peter addressing? Jews! Would the Jews have understood that "be converted" meant baptism? Absolutely. The concept was nothing new to them.

So again we see that the Greek word eis does not mean "because of." Do not let your theology define scripture, but let scripture define your theology.



-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 19, 2004.


One more point I'll address. The article quotes a Dr. Sadler "The argument that... the expression, for remission of, modifies both verbs, repent and be baptized, won’t hold water. Repent is a plural verb, active voice, second person, has ye for its subject, and was addressed to the whole crowd. Be baptized is a singular verb, passive voice, third person, and has for its subject, not the whole crowd, but only such as had repented and believed. For remission does not modify both verbs. It modifies baptized only, and means that everyone who has repented and trusted in Christ is commanded to be baptized because his sins are reemitted."

The problem with this is that Peter said "for the forgiveness.." not "for your forgivenes..."

Your indicates possession.

The does not, unless followed by a possessive noun. (ex: the dog's colar)

If for meant because of (which I've shown that it doesn't), then Peter would have said, "Repent, and be baptized for your forgiveness..." because the Jew would then be baptized because of that which he already possessed. However, Peter did not say your but the, which indicates something not already possessed.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 19, 2004.


Baptism doesn't violate the "faith only" doctrine if you realize that Baptism is not a work of man, but is the work of God. It's the Word of God's forgiveness applied to your life individually.

The Word comes to us in many forms, electronic, paper/ink, preaching... how much more gloriously thru the God-ordained means: simple water.

There are some groups who think Baptism earns forgiveness. However, forgiveness is God's Word of absolution. God CONSIDERS you justified because of your faith. He openly DECLARES this fact through Baptism.

For example: You can forgive a person in your heart without saying anything. But, when you say it to them, you are giving them forgiveness.

In the same way, God forgives a person in His heart when they come to faith (and arguably even before this in view of His sovereignty and foreknowledge.)

But, God doesn't keep His forgiveness a secret, He expresses His forgiveness to us openly and personally through Baptism.

Again, for those who think the doctrine that "Baptism saves" violates the "faith only" principle, you'd then have to say that repenting and praying also violates the faith only principle and that confessing Christ violates the Faith princple etc. since these also are works of man.

Also, if you deny the ordained means of God's Word coming to us, you'd have to say the Bible does not save anybody and neither does preaching the Word. These are the means of the Word that saves. Baptism is a means of the Word that saves.

Baptism is "God's Word of forgiveness" given to us in the Symbolic washing of the water. The Word of God saves us as we hold to His Promise by faith - faith alone.

One more thought: all words are symbols. God's Symbol (Word) of Baptism conveys forgiveness. Through the Symbol (Word) of Baptism, we are given the expressed Promise of forgiveness - past, present, future.

How were you personally given God's expressed Promise of forgiveness? Through the Bible? Too general. Altar call? Not ordained of God. Sinner's prayer? Not only is it not ordained of God, God doesn't express anything there to you. Where can you get God's personal Promise of the forgiveness of your sins? The only God- ordained means mentioned in the Bible is Water Baptism.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Hi Max

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 23, 2004.

For Max

Baptism doesn't violate the "faith only" doctrine if you realize that Baptism is not a work of man, but is the work of God. It's the Word of God's forgiveness applied to your life individually.

That is true--but it occurs inside the heart of a true believer-- before the water ritual is ever performed.

The Word comes to us in many forms, electronic, paper/ink, preaching... how much more gloriously thru the God-ordained means: simple water.

The Word is Jesus Himself and He comes to us by way of the cross--for those who believe.

There are some groups who think Baptism earns forgiveness. However, forgiveness is God's Word of absolution. God CONSIDERS you justified because of your faith. He openly DECLARES this fact through Baptism.

Scripture please? It is my understanding that God has declared His forgiveness through His Son.

In the same way, God forgives a person in His heart when they come to faith (and arguably even before this in view of His sovereignty and foreknowledge.)

But, God doesn't keep His forgiveness a secret, He expresses His forgiveness to us openly and personally through Baptism.

God expressed His forgiveness openly at the cross....

Again, for those who think the doctrine that "Baptism saves" violates the "faith only" principle, you'd then have to say that repenting and praying also violates the faith only principle and that confessing Christ violates the Faith princple etc. since these also are works of man.

The water ritual is merely an expression of the truth of the condition of our hearts--being born-again by the washing of the Word-- and this occured before-hand.

Also, if you deny the ordained means of God's Word coming to us, you'd have to say the Bible does not save anybody and neither does preaching the Word. These are the means of the Word that saves. Baptism is a means of the Word that saves.

I disagree. The Word came to us by way of the cross....to all who will believe.

Baptism is "God's Word of forgiveness" given to us in the Symbolic washing of the water. The Word of God saves us as we hold to His Promise by faith - faith alone.

The cross is God's Word of forgiveness--and you said it--Baptism in a water ritual is a symbolic gesture--representing the fact that we are born-again and washed clean by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

One more thought: all words are symbols. God's Symbol (Word) of Baptism conveys forgiveness. Through the Symbol (Word) of Baptism, we are given the expressed Promise of forgiveness - past, present, future.

The Word is Jesus Christ..and the ultimate symbol is the cross...for everyone, past, present and future.

The Old Testament people were saved by looking forward to the cross (Isaiah 53) and faith in the promised Messiah...and the New Testament people are saved by looking back at the cross.

How were you personally given God's expressed Promise of forgiveness? Through the Bible? Too general. Altar call? Not ordained of God. Sinner's prayer? Not only is it not ordained of God, God doesn't express anything there to you. Where can you get God's personal Promise of the forgiveness of your sins? The only God- ordained means mentioned in the Bible is Water Baptism.

No., it is found at the foot of the cross. Consider the repentant sinner who was promised that he would be in paradise with Jesus that day. Was he baptised in a water ritual? Nope.

But he did confess, repented and receive what Jesus was offering...eternal life.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


I'll attempt to keep this as short as possible so people who scan these posts don't skip over...

>The Word is Jesus Himself <

Yes, Christ is the Word of God, but don't forget Christ gives promises and commands as well. These also are His Word.

>He comes to us by way of the cross--for those who believe.<<

Where is the cross? Doesn't the "cross" come to us by means of the Word? You cannot deny this. You would not know of the cross except through the Word.

Baptism is a means whereby the Word is delivered to us individually and personally, not generally as in preaching or reading the Bible. The Word in the Bible doesn't refer to you specifically, but the Word in Baptism does.

>God expressed His forgiveness openly at the cross.... <

But, He did not die for you alone. He died for the sins of the world. Therefore, the message of the cross certainly pertains to you, but is a general Word to all men.

Also, where did you hear about the cross? By means of the Word.

It is not "merely an expression" because it is God's Expression. How can you say God's Expression is something "mere" ?

No, Baptism is a very REAL Expression by God that your sins are forgiven. It is God Who performs Baptism, since it is done in His Name.

>I disagree. The Word came to us by way of the cross....to all who will believe<

Again, the cross cannot come to you except by means of the Word. How else did you learn of the cross? Special revelation? Even that would require God to send His Word to your mind. You cannot escape the fact that the gospel comes through "vehicles" that deliver the Word. (Bible, preachers, tracts, etc.) Water Baptism is a "vehicle" that delivers the Word of God's forgiveness to you personally and individually, in a very specific form, meant only for you.

>The cross is God's Word of forgiveness<

Yes, in a general sense to the world, but not to you alone like in Baptism. And, you cannot know of the Message of the Cross except through intermediate "vehicles" as I've already explained.... Bible, preaching, tracts, etc.

>Baptism in a water ritual is a symbolic gesture<

Yes, a Symbolic Gesture of God, not man. Words are Symbols. This Word (Symbol) of Baptism is no mere ritual as some suppose. It is full of power and is issued by God. It is a Gesture of God.

Some retain the form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. They retain the ritual of Baptism, but deny the Word connected to it. These teachers have it backwards and should be avoided.

>The Word is Jesus Christ..and the ultimate symbol is the cross...for everyone, past, present and future. <

Again, you would not know of Jesus or the Cross unless it was delivered to you through some means. This means is the Word.

>No., it is found at the foot of the cross.<

And again, we would not know of the cross except through the Word.

>Consider the rentant sinner whom was promised that he would be in paradise with Jesus that day. Was he baptised in a water ritual? Nope.<

Great example!!! Jesus Himself delivered to this sinner, individually and personally, the Word of forgiveness and Promise of Eternal Life.

Don't you wish Jesus would openly express to you, personally and individually, the promise of forgiveness and heaven like He did the sinner on the cross?

ACTUALLY! Jesus has already HAS expressed this personal Promise to you, through Baptism. Baptism is Christ's personal Word of forgiveness to you. Value it as more than "mere" and thank Him for it. ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Max..,

You said:

Where is the cross? Doesn't the "cross" come to us by means of the Word? You cannot deny this. You would not know of the cross except through the Word.

You would not know of the ritual of baptism without the Scriptures either. And I know that there are those who would claim we could still know by word of mouth--though I don't put much trust in tradition.

Baptism is a means whereby the Word is delivered to us individually and personally, not generally as in preaching or reading the Bible. The Word in the Bible doesn't refer to you specifically, but the Word in Baptism does.

Scripture please??

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


>You would not know of the ritual of baptism without the Scriptures either.<

Right. The scriptures are the written Word of God, brought to us across time (hundred of years) through the "vehicle" of paper/ink.

>And I know that there are those who would claim we could still know by word of mouth--though I don't put much trust in tradition. <

The Apostles did not have the New Testament. It was all "word of mouth" at that time. But, yes, we must test tradition in light of what the Apostles wrote. A child, though, can trust his parents' word of mouth about the gospel.

>The Word in the Bible doesn't refer to you specifically, but the Word in Baptism does.<

>>Scripture please?? <<

1. Look through the Bible yourself. Your name is not there. There is no specific personal Word for you as an individual there.

2. Think about the verses that describe what Baptism offers to the individual. (I don't need to repost all these verses that I'm sure you've read plenty of times before.)

3. Remember your Baptism. You were there and received everything God Promises in the scriptures to individuals who are Baptized.

Baptism is something done in God's Name, not ours. If something is done in God's Name, it's God Who is doing it, not us. Therefore, God's Word is definitely in Baptism and since Baptism is an individual event, the Word applies to you individually.

(Of course, when I say "If something is done in God's Name, it's God acting" I am not referring to evil deeds or man-made traditions done in God's Name. Baptism is no evil deed nor is it a man-made tradition.)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Right. The scriptures are the written Word of God, brought to us across time (hundred of years) through the "vehicle" of paper/ink.

Rather., they are brought to us by the vehicle of the Holy Spirit

The Apostles did not have the New Testament. It was all "word of mouth" at that time. But, yes, we must test tradition in light of what the Apostles wrote. A child, though, can trust his parents' word of mouth about the gospel.

Do you really believe that the Apostles did not have the New Testament, Max? I see them refer to each others writings and I see them refer to them as Scripture no less. They were writing and circulating Scripture simultaneously.

>>Scripture please?? <<

1. Look through the Bible yourself. Your name is not there. There is no specific personal Word for you as an individual there.

Huh? --God has personally addressed me...tho, that is not what I am asking Scripture for. I want the Scripture that says that Baptism is a means whereby the Word is delivered to us individually and personally.

2. Think about the verses that describe what Baptism offers to the individual. (I don't need to repost all these verses that I'm sure you've read plenty of times before.)

3. Remember your Baptism. You were there and received everything God Promises in the scriptures to individuals who are Baptized.

Yes--but again., my baptism occurred long before I was dipped into literal water...my baptism was of the Holy Spirit and it happened the moment I believed.

Baptism is something done in God's Name, not ours. If something is done in God's Name, it's God Who is doing it, not us. Therefore, God's Word is definitely in Baptism and since Baptism is an individual event, the Word applies to you individually.

But again--can you provide the Scripture that says by baptism is meant the water ritual we perform--rather than the baptism that takes place in our hearts the moment we believe and receive Jesus Christ?

(Of course, when I say "If something is done in God's Name, it's God acting" I am not referring to evil deeds or man-made traditions done in God's Name. Baptism is no evil deed nor is it a man-made tradition.)

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


Looks like this might be a long one...

>Right. The scriptures are the written Word of God, brought to us across time (hundred of years) through the "vehicle" of paper/ink.<

>>Rather., they are brought to us by the vehicle of the Holy Spirit<<

The subject of my sentence was "scriptures" referring to the physical writings of the Apostles. Their words are with us today because they were preserved on paper with ink. You have a copy in your house. This is the physical vehicle that brings their words to us today. If you still don't understand this elementary point, I'm not sure how else to simplify it.

>Do you really believe that the Apostles did not have the New Testament, Max?<

Let's see... the Apostles WROTE the New Testament. It took years before it was completed.

I had a bunch of stuff typed on this, but decided to try and keep it simple.

The Apostles did not refer to any "New Testament" - They had authority themselves as Apostles. That's where the New Testament gets its authority in the first place, because it's written and approved by the Apostles. It didn't instantly appear out of thin air...

>I see them refer to each others writings and I see them refer to them as Scripture no less.<

Peter does this once in reference to Paul's writings, but he does not quote Paul to back any of His doctrine. My initial point was that the Word came from the Apostles and at one point in church history, there was no "New Testament" - It was all "word of mouth" for quite a while after Pentecost. That was my initial point. The Apostles didn't get the doctrine of Baptism from reading the New Testament. They got it from Jesus Himself.

>They were writing and circulating Scripture simultaneously. <

But not all the scriptures were written in the same day. It took time. There was a time when the New Testament was not in the collected form that we have today. During this period, the church had no choice but to rely on word of mouth in reference to the teachings and gospel of Christ.

>Huh? --God has personally addressed me..<

In the Bible? No. There is a general address to believers, but not to you individually. If you find your name in there, let me know. You may read it personally as if it were written to you specifically, but it wasn't written to you specifially. It was written to a group.

>Yes--but again., my baptism occurred long before I was dipped into literal water...my baptism was of the Holy Spirit and it happened the moment I believed. <

Yes, you likely had an internal "purifying" by faith before you finally were Baptized in water. However, I'm referring to Water Baptism and the Promises connected with it. Nobody who reads scripture plainly can disconnect the Promises of God from the physical Ordinance.

>But again--can you provide the Scripture that says by baptism is meant the water ritual we perform--rather than the baptism that takes place in our hearts the moment we believe and receive Jesus Christ? <

I can provide many.

Peter said, "believe and be baptized" and "can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized?" and the Eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" and many other verses which, if you're familiar with the topic, obviously refer to what you call "the water ritual." Jesus was referring to water Baptism when He commanded His disciples to go and baptize in His Name... Water Baptism is instituted by Christ. It's not just some man-made religious ritual.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 23, 2004.


Don't misunderstand me Max.

I never said that baptism isn't something we should do. I never denied it is taught in the Scriptures or confirmed by Jesus Himself-- since He too was baptised for example. Obviously though--it wasn't to formally wash His sins away--He was sinless.

My argument is that it isn't necessary first--before someone can be saved, forgiven, washed new.., or even able to hear the Word or have a personal relationship with Jesus.

It is a symbolic gesture that Jesus wants us to do--just like communion. He designed these things to point people towards Himself and His sacrifice--His death and resurrection....and to keep us focused.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 23, 2004.


Faith,

If baptism is "symbolic" as you state, then please explain why Ananaias told Paul to be baptized to WASH AWAY his sins???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


Kevin,

Do you agree with what Max says?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 24, 2004.


>...confirmed by Jesus Himself-- since He too was baptised for example. Obviously though--it wasn't to formally wash His sins away-- He was sinless.<

Just as Jesus accepted the validity of all the rituals of the Law, He accepted the ritual that God sent through His prophet, John.

You can't really compare Jesus' Baptism to ours. Even John said that Jesus should water baptize him, not the other way around. Why? Because he recognized Jesus had no sin, but he recognized his own. Therefore, John was recognizing the power that a water baptism from Jesus would have.

>My argument is that it isn't necessary first--before someone can be saved, forgiven, washed new.., or even able to hear the Word or have a personal relationship with Jesus.<

My argument is that Baptism is NECESSARY in this sense: when a man marries a woman, if the woman refuses the man's ring, she refuses the man. She cannot call herself his wife unless she accepts the ring which is connected with the man's promise.

Just as a woman cannot call herself a man's wife, enjoying all the benefits thereof, you cannot legitimately consider yourself a Christian, enjoying all the benefits of God's children, until you receive the Symbolic Ring: Baptism.

>It is a symbolic gesture that Jesus wants us to do--just like communion. <

Don't forget the "gesture" of Christ in Baptism. You are very one- sided in your thoughts about Baptism. All you can see is man's side of the equation. Don't forget God's side of the equation...

Baptism is not so much a work we do for God. All we do is accept it, like a woman being still enough for a ring to be put on her finger. What are we accepting? A Symbol that is connected with a Promise from God.

Communion is also a Christ instituted Symbol connected with Promises, but that's not the topic here.

>He designed these things to point people towards Himself and His sacrifice--His death and resurrection....and to keep us focused.<

Yes, these Symbols point to a Reality, but the fact is, we are intimately connected to these Symbols, not just observers. We are participants with these Symbols, thereby appropriating the Reality for which these Symbols stand.

A wedding ring is a Symbol, but a woman doesn't just look at this her ring as something "merely" symbolic. By wearing it and treasuring it, she becomes intimately united to the Symbol, a true participant in the Reality for which it stands.

I wish all those who were Baptized would treasure their Baptism, not as something they did for God, but as a Symbol of God's Promise to them. Most have it backwards though, thanks to false teachers.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


Fortunately for me Max--I am not under the misconception that the symbolic ring makes or breaks my very real marriage, my wedding vows are the basis of my marriage. The ring only symbolizes this truth.

I could leave my ring in the jewlry box--loose it., or never want one in the first place., and my marriage would still count.

In the same way--my spiritual baptism., my being born-again happened long before the water baptism-- and that simply symbolizes the deeper truth of what already hyappened.

If I were never baptised in water--it wouldn't change the fact that I was born-again and washed new by the blood of Jesus Christ through faith in Him--faith I had because I heard the message and believed, confessed and received Jesus Christ as my Savior and was blessed by the Holy Spirit----

With or without water baptism--those things remain in tact and water baptism neither saves or makes it possible to know Jesus. That occured the moment I believed.

My life changed and I became a born-again Christian long before I was baptised in front of my congregation. That moment could not compare to the real moment of baptism that took place in an instant--a year earlier...it is a spiritual truth--not a physical ceremony.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


>Fortunately for me Max--I am not under the misconception that the symbolic ring makes or breaks my very real marriage, my wedding vows are the basis of my marriage.<

You accepted your spouse's promise and received the ring as a token of that promise. You did not reject it. The physical metal ring did not make you married, but the Promise connected to the ring certainly made you married. If you'd rejected the ring, you would in effect be rejecting the promise connected to the ring.

>I could leave my ring in the jewlry box--loose it., or never want one in the first place., and my marriage would still count.<

The fact is, you received the ring and didn't reject it or ho-hum about whether to receive it. Is it a meaningless piece of metal? Is it just a relic from a nice experience you two had? No, your ring is connected to a promise that you hold dear.

I do not doubt that God counted you as righteous the moment you believed. I do, however, doubt you understand the significance of the Symbol of Baptism, because you still think it's something you DO more than something you RECEIVE.

Somewhat like getting your wedding ring wasn't something you DID so much as it was something you RECEIVED from your spouse. Baptism isn't so much something you do as it is something you receive from Christ, since it is Christ doing it, as it is performed in His Name.

Don't leave God out of Baptism, as if He did not give something to you there.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


I totally disagree, Max.

But I think I have explained as best I can.

We will just need to agree to disagree.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


I appreciate the discussion.

Your (inward) soul receives Christ by Faith. Your (outward) body receives Christ by Baptism.

Both aspects will be saved.

Can't express it any more simply than that.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


Too bad you can't seem to back any of it up with Scripture...

-- Faith ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.

You've read the verses that pertain to Baptism.

Without fiddling with them, you'll find my interpretation fits more squarely with them than yours.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 24, 2004.


I know the Scripture like the back of my hand.

That is why I know you cannot support your opinion.

And the proof is that you have not done so.

I'll wait-if youd like another chance?

Start with your Concordance---there should be one at the back of your Bible..

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 24, 2004.


David,

No, I don't agree with what Max says. It appears that Max says that one is saved by faith BEFORE being baptized, however baptism is where one's sins are washed away.

I agree with him in that baptism washes away sin, however he is MISTAKEN in his belief that one is saved BEFORE they are baptized.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 24, 2004.


If you've become a child of God and have received the Spirit and are justified by faith... you've obviously passed from the kingdom of Satan into the Kingdom of Light and have God's unmerited grace.

We are justified by faith alone. Not one scripture backs the idea that we are justified by Baptism. If we're justified, we're accounted righteous.

Baptism saves like the Bible saves. It contains God's Promise.

Baptism washes away sin, but it does not justify anybody .

Baptism washes away sin that is already justified by the blood. In it, God openly declares a person forgiven. God doesn't decide there to count the person as righteous. God counts a person as righteous from the moment of faith, not at the moment of Baptism.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 25, 2004.


Here you go again--still., with not one Scripture to support yourself.

I think the whole problem is in that you art not sure just what baptism is the saving baptism that washes away sin. That baptism is the baptism of the heart--when the Holy Spirit comes .., this is the baptism that Jesus brings.

The water ritual baptism was brought by John the Baptist and it forshadowed the real baptism of the Holy Spirit to come...

Luke 3:15-16

The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

We know that Jesus was baptised and from that time on--Jesus preached the good news.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 25, 2004.


I've studied the sciptures and considered every possible perspective on the meaning of Baptism for years. This is the view I've come to accept. It's a view restored by the Reformation and is found in the earliest Church Fathers' writing (which cannot be easily ignored) and yes, is clearly shown in the Scriptures as well.

I don't quote scripture here very much because, if I did, you'd likely fiddle with the words to fit your own meaning. I know how it goes. I've seen every possible argument from every side. My using scripture, which you say you know like the back of your hand, is not going to help. I suggest you take a second look at all the verses describing Water Baptism and see if it fits your model or mine better. I understand, though, that once a person has committed to a certain interpretation and has invested their life into a local congregation, it's hard to change one's mind on such an issue.

>The water ritual baptism was brought by John the Baptist and it forshadowed the real baptism of the Holy Spirit to come... <

Actually, water baptism was a part of Jewish life long before John the Baptist. (Ask a Jew.) John brought his message and people were baptized into his baptism. After Jesus came, people were commanded to be re-baptized into Jesus' water baptism. Here's a verse that shows this...

"And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." - Acts 19:3-6

So, these believers, even though they'd been baptized into John's baptism, they had not been Baptized into Jesus' Baptism or received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. (And no, you cannot "spiritualize" this passage and turn water baptism into spirit baptism. It won't work in context.)

When we say that Jesus instituted Water Baptism (not John) it means, Jesus instituted Christian Water Baptism... an obviously different thing than John's water baptism.

Jesus instituted Christian Water Baptism, not John. If you were water baptized in John's baptism, you'd be commanded to be water baptized into Jesus'. Obviously two different water baptisms.

-- Max Darity (gus@arrowtouch.com), June 25, 2004.


Well I think your verse disproves your theory...

John's water baptism by itself meant nothing once Jesus came....people had to receive Christ and His baptism of the Holy Spirit....

I think that water baptism is not what is meant in your verses...

And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." (water) Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." ( a foreshadow)

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.(not water--again?? right?? it was a baptism of the heart because they heard the truth) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." - Acts 19:3-6

It was a different sort of baptism with the laying on of hands as well....

Did anyone lay hands on you after you believed??

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), June 25, 2004.


>When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.(not water--again?? right?? it was a baptism of the heart because they heard the truth) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying." - Acts 19:3-6 <

No, it was in water again... in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, according to the command of Jesus. Thisis why quoting scripture is almost vain in this arena, because people who can't accept it on face value have to "spiritualize" or fiddle with the plain meaning of verses.

It's plainly water baptism. If you can't accept that in view of all other verses about baptism, then your method of Bible interpretation follows no rules, but is simply twisted to fit your own ideas.

>It was a different sort of baptism with the laying on of hands as well.... Did anyone lay hands on you after you believed?? <

These people received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit after the laying on of hands. Yes, I've had hands laid on me, but I did not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit evidence (speaking in tongues, prophecy, praising) until years later.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 25, 2004.


Max,

Please provide the scripture(s) that state "We are justified by faith ALONE"???

I never said we were "justified by baptism" now did I???

We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), we are also justified by works (James 2:24).

You wrote, "Baptism saves like the Bible saves. It contains God's Promise."

Yes, I agree baptism saves for this is what the Bible teaches.

You wrote, "God counts a person as righteous from the moment of faith, not at the moment of Baptism."

Scripture(s) please???

Go back and re-read James 2:20, 26.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


>Please provide the scripture(s) that state "We are justified by faith ALONE"???<

I'll take the time to post several for you. I hope you take the time to read honestly...

Romans 4:16 is clear: "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace"

How does the promise come? _______________________

Does this verse say that the promise comes because of Baptism?______

Romans 3:22: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

How does this righteousness come?_____________________

Does this verse say that righteousness comes because of Baptism?____

Romans 3:25: "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."

How is atonement applied? _______________________________

Does this verse say atonement is applied through Baptism?________

Romans 3:30: "Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith."

How are the circumcised justified?__________________________

How are the uncircumcised justified?________________________

Are either group justified by Baptism? _____________________

Romans 4:5 - "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

What is our faith credited as?__________________________

Is a Baptism credited as righteousness in this verse? ___________

Galations 2:16 "know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

By what are we justified?____________________________

Are we justified by Baptism in this verse?_________________

If God considers a man righteous (justified), will He condemn him, even if he is unable to attain water Baptism?

__________________ (Hint: No)

If you can sincerely still claim that a man whom God considers righteous is hell-bound, there's absolutely no way to convince you by common means of persuasion. You are impervious to any form of reason or scripture.

>I never said we were "justified by baptism" now did I??? <

But, if we are justified, we are considered righteous by God. Those who are considered righteous by God WILL NOT go to hell.

>We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), we are also justified by works (James 2:24). <

You cannot interpret James' writings without taking all of Paul's writings into account as well.

Paul is VERY clear that we are justified by our faith (see above) and makes a VERY clear distinction between those who attempt to be justified by faith and those who attempt to be justified by works.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast."

By what are we saved?___________________

Through what are we saved?________________

Not by what?___________________

Does this contradict James who said we are justified by works? ______

How can this "problem" be resolved? ______________________

>Yes, I agree baptism saves for this is what the Bible teaches. <

We totally disagree as to HOW Baptism saves as long as you see it as a DIVIDING LINE righteous work of man and not as a means by which God creates/seals/confirms faith. God creates faith by the Bible, too. The Bible saves us and encourages us to remain saved, that is, the Bible kindles faith. Baptism too, since it contains God's Word.

>You wrote, "God counts a person as righteous from the moment of faith, not at the moment of Baptism." Scripture(s) please??? <

You've got lots of verses to study above.

>Go back and re-read James 2:20, 26. <

James 2:20 - "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?"

Yes, a faith without the fruit of love is a FALSE faith. It's dead.

However, a TRUE faith will ALWAYS produce fruit. And, it's not the fruit that makes us righteous (that's just evidence) it's the faith that counts as righteousness, according to God. (see above verses)

James 2:26 - "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

Yes. A faith that does not produce love is a FALSE faith. It's dead and worthless. There are many people with FALSE faith in this world. Their faith is dead because it's FALSE. It doesn't truly rely on Christ.

TRUE faith counts as righteousness... NO righteous man will be condemned.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 25, 2004.


Max wrote, "Romans 4:16 is clear: "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace"

Yes, the promise is by faith, but NOT by faith ALONE. You ADD the word ALONE to this text. Can you HONESTLY see that you are ADDING to the word of God???

Max wrote, "Does this verse say that the promise comes because of Baptism?"

If one has their sins washed away in baptism, then one CANNOT have their faith reckoned to them as righteousness UNTIL they are baptized.

Get it???

Max wrote, "Romans 3:22: "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." How does this righteousness come?"

Yes, the righteousness comes THROUGH FAITH, but NOT through faith ALONE as you believe. Go back and re-read Hebrews chapter 11, By faith...

Max wrote, "Does this verse say that righteousness comes because of Baptism?"

This verse certainly does NOT state that one is saved through faith ALONE now does it Max??? By faith...one is BAPTIZED to have their sins washed away. The word of God could not be any CLEARER than this OBVIOUS fact.

Max wrote, "Romans 3:25: "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." How is atonement applied?"

Now you add the requirement that one must have faith in His blood??? Which is it Max??? Is one saved by faith ALONE??? Or must one believe in Jesus blood to be saved??? Once again this verse does NOT say that one is saved through faith ALONE. You are ADDING to the text AGAIN. It is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins, but this does NOT happen UNTIL we are baptized INTO His death therefore one is still in their sins UNTIL they have been immersed.

Max wrote, "Does this verse say atonement is applied through Baptism?"

Does this verse say atone is applied throug faith ALONE??? Certainly NOT!!!

Max wrote, "Romans 3:30: "Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith." How are the circumcised justified?"

Yes Max please notice that it is by FAITH, and NOT through faith ALONE for the Jews. Once again you ADD to the text and claim that you are SMARTER than God. I believe that Christians are justified THROUGH faith, just like the word of God states. You will NOT find ONE passage that states that one is justified by faith ALONE, it takes a serious TWISTING of the text to prove this false doctrine.

Max wrote, "How are the uncircumcised justified?"

The uncircumcised (the Gentiles) are justified through faith, just as the word of God states and NOT through faith ALONE as you falsely teach.

Max wrote, "Are either group justified by Baptism?"

Baptism is a response of faith it is that simple. We are justified THROUGH FAITH and this includes everything that one does (faith, repentance, confession, baptism, etc.) as a result of this faith. One is NOT justified by faith ALONE.

Max wrote, "Romans 4:5 - "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Once again, this text does NOT say that one is saved by faith ALONE.

Max wrote, "What is our faith credited as?"

What does James say about those who have faith without works???

Max wrote, "Is a Baptism credited as righteousness in this verse?"

Is faith ALONE credited as righteousness in this verse???

Max wrote, "Galations 2:16 "know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ."

We are NOT talking about the Law of Moses now are we Max???

Max wrote, "By what are we justified?"

We are justified THROUGH faith, however again there is NO mention that one is justified by faith ALONE.

Max wrote, "Are we justified by Baptism in this verse?"

We are NOT justified by faith ALONE in this verse are we Max???

Max wrote, "If God considers a man righteous (justified), will He condemn him, even if he is unable to attain water Baptism? (Hint: No)"

If baptism washes away sin (and it does) for you have already agree that this is so, then how can one be JUSTIFIED if they are still in their sins??? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

Max wrote, "If you can sincerely still claim that a man whom God considers righteous is hell-bound, there's absolutely no way to convince you by common means of persuasion. You are impervious to any form of reason or scripture."

In all the verses you quoted, NOT once will you find that one is justified by faith ALONE, NOR does God consider one righteous who has NOT done all that He has COMMANDED with baptism being a COMMAND. I would suggest that you go back and re-read the book of Acts which shows how the Jews and Gentiles became Christians. Not one of them were saved by faith ALONE.

Max wrote, "You cannot interpret James' writings without taking all of Paul's writings into account as well. Paul is VERY clear that we are justified by our faith (see above) and makes a VERY clear distinction between those who attempt to be justified by faith and those who attempt to be justified by works."

You are the one who misunderstands the difference in what Paul wrote concerning Faith and what James wrote concerning faith. Paul in the book of Romans many times made the comparison between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ stating that salvation is no longer based on the works of the old Law. James on the other hand speaks of works of obedience, for he cites the example of Abraham in chapter 2. We ARE justified by works for we will be JUDGED by our works. (See Matthew 16:27, Revelation 20:12).

Max wrote, "Ephesians 2:8,9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast." By what are we saved?"

We are saved THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE. Once again Max you ADD to the word of God.

Max wrote, "We totally disagree as to HOW Baptism saves as long as you see it as a DIVIDING LINE righteous work of man and not as a means by which God creates/seals/confirms faith. God creates faith by the Bible, too. The Bible saves us and encourages us to remain saved, that is, the Bible kindles faith. Baptism too, since it contains God's Word."

You faith ALONE doctrine is NOT found in the word of God Max, can you not see that you have been deceived??? If one has their sins washed away in baptism, then this is the DIVIDING LINE between the lost and the saved. If not, why not???

Max wrote, "You wrote, "God counts a person as righteous from the moment of faith, not at the moment of Baptism."

To which I replied, "Scripture(s) please???"

Max replied, "You've got lots of verses to study above."

I think you are the one who needs to go back and study Max.

I wrote, "Go back and re-read James 2:20, 26."

To which Max replied, "James 2:20 - "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?" Yes, a faith without the fruit of love is a FALSE faith. It's dead. However, a TRUE faith will ALWAYS produce fruit. And, it's not the fruit that makes us righteous (that's just evidence) it's the faith that counts as righteousness, according to God. (see above verses)"

You say that one is saved by faith ALONE, then turn around and say "TRUE faith ALWAYS produce fruit"??? If faith without works is a "dead faith" (and it is), then how can you say that one is saved BEFORE they have their faith accounted to them as righteousness by producing fruit??? If producing fruit causes one to be justified, then one is NOT saved by faith ALONE for this faith that was ALONE is truly NOT alone if it has to do something.

Max wrote, "James 2:26 - "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead." Yes. A faith that does not produce love is a FALSE faith. It's dead and worthless. There are many people with FALSE faith in this world. Their faith is dead because it's FALSE. It doesn't truly rely on Christ."

Again, you CONTRADICT yourself. If one is saved by faith ALONE, then one does NOT have to do anything to be saved. His faith that is ALONE is all that he needs in order to be justified according to your doctrine. A faith that does NOT act, is a dead faith. This is what you call your faith ALONE salvation. You claim that one is saved by faith ALONE, but now you say that one has to DO something???

Max wrote, "TRUE faith counts as righteousness... NO righteous man will be condemned."

Yes, TRUE faith is a faith that DOES what God COMMANDS. This INCLUDES belief in the gospel, repentance of their sins, confession of Jesus as Lord and being baptized for the remission of their sins. Then one MUST remain faithful and GROW (produce fruit) as God has commanded.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 25, 2004.


Max--

It is odd., but I agreed with everything you said in your post above to Kevin.

I am not sure what to do with your idea about baptism though...

I agree it is something we need to do., tho, I never saw it as necessary for salvation. You seem to agree--yet you see baptism differently than me.

-- ("faith01@my6way.com"), June 26, 2004.


>Max wrote, "Romans 4:16 is clear: "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace" Yes, the promise is by faith, but NOT by faith ALONE. You ADD the word ALONE to this text. Can you HONESTLY see that you are ADDING to the word of God??? <

Ok Kevin, let's be honest with human language...

I'm reading the Word as it's written. It says, "faith justifies" over and over. If I want to know the CAUSE of justification, I read a verse, and it tells me. It does not require the word ALONE.

Here's an example:

The moon is in direct orbit around the earth.

We don't add the word ALONE because that would be redundant. We know the moon DIRECTLY ORBITS THE EARTH ALONE. (It indirectly orbits the sun, but that's not the point here.)

Water turns to ice when the temperature reaches a certain point.

We don't need to add the word ALONE to the above sentence because we know the CONDITION and we know the RESULT. We don't ask, "Is there anything else that you are not telling me is included in this equation of how water turns to ice?"

No, we assume, because the CONDITION is clearly stated and the RESULT is also clear, that the CONDITION needs no exclusive term such as ALONE.

Paul clearly writes over and over what THEE CONDITION is for God to consider a person righteous: FAITH. He doesn't spend chapter after chapter to prove that FAITH is just A CONDITION among others. Everyone accepted that faith is part of the equation of salvation. That's not what Paul spent pages and pages of writing trying to prove... it's rather clear... to say the least.

Essentially, in response to your assertion, let me sum it up: Paul did not need to add the term ALONE. That would be redundant.

>If one has their sins washed away in baptism, then one CANNOT have their faith reckoned to them as righteousness UNTIL they are baptized. Get it??? <

Faith is THEE CONDITION for JUSTIFICATION. Paul is clear on this. He doesn't spend so much ink and parchment trying to prove that faith is just one condition out of several. That's what the Judaizers thought.

Washing our sin away in Baptism is washing away the sins that are already forgiven in God's heart. He declares it to us personally in Baptism.

You find a necklace at a garage sale that is covered with rust, but is worth $1,000 when it's added to your collection. You buy that necklace for $2 and then you take it home and wash the rust off. It's not worth more to you now that it's washed. With or without rust, it belongs to you and you highly value it.

When we have faith, God finds an immeasurable value in us.

1Peter 1:7 - "These have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed."

Are you going to tell me that Peter has to add the word ALONE here to be sure we don't think he is talking about something else in addition to faith? No, that'd be absurd. Peter is telling us how valuable our faith is. He's speaking about faith - that same condition in our heart that brings justification, according to Paul.

>Yes, the righteousness comes THROUGH FAITH, but NOT through faith ALONE as you believe.<

I've already addressed this.

>This verse certainly does NOT state that one is saved through faith ALONE now does it Max???<

Already addressed this.

>Max wrote, "Romans 3:25: "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." How is atonement applied?"

>Now you add the requirement that one must have faith in His blood??? Which is it Max??? Is one saved by faith ALONE??? Or must one believe in Jesus blood to be saved???<

I think you seriously misunderstand what "faith alone" means. Faith requires an "object" of trust. Faith is not some ungrounded feeling in nothing... the faith that Paul speaks of is grounded in Christ and His Promise. Only by this faith are we are justified in God's eyes.

> It is the blood of Christ that washes away our sins, but this does NOT happen UNTIL we are baptized INTO His death therefore one is still in their sins UNTIL they have been immersed. <

Our faith in Christ justifies us. The washing of water Baptism is a washing of absolution - the announcement by God that our sins are forgiven.

You are seriously confusing the moment God ACCOUNTS us righteous with the moment God ANNOUNCES us righteous.

That'd be like confusing the moment you forgive a friend in your heart with the moment you told him he was forgiven. Big mistake.

> I believe that Christians are justified THROUGH faith, just like the word of God states. <

No you don't. You cannot accept we are accounted righteous in God's eyes because of faith and then say we need to add something to faith in order to be accounted righteous. You contradict yourself.

>You will NOT find ONE passage that states that one is justified by faith ALONE, <

Addressed this already. It'd be redundant for Paul to use the word alone.

>it takes a serious TWISTING of the text to prove this false doctrine. <

No twisting required. God's Word is clear. We are justified by faith. The condition is faith. You're adding BAPTISM to the verses. I'm adding nothing.

>The uncircumcised (the Gentiles) are justified through faith, just as the word of God states and NOT through faith ALONE as you falsely teach. <

Addressed.

>We are justified THROUGH FAITH and this includes everything that one does (faith, repentance, confession, baptism, etc.) as a result of this faith.<

Are you hearing what you say? Let's be honest here...

You say: We are justified through faith and this includes everything that one does as a RESULT OF THIS FAITH. (emph mine)

Paul says we are justified by faith. Does he say this includes everything that RESULTS from faith? No.

What, according to Paul's writings, justifies us in God's eyes:

A. Faith B. the Results of Faith

You are mixing A and B, even though you accept that they are two distinct things.

It's obvious that a Faith grounded in Christ DOES have Results. However, it's this Faith, NOT THE RESULTS of Faith, that God considers as righteousness. Abraham was considered righteous before he manifested that faith.

You have FAITH You have the MANIFESTATION of FAITH

Do not confuse the two.

>You say that one is saved by faith ALONE, then turn around and say "TRUE faith ALWAYS produce fruit"??? <

Yes.

>If faith without works is a "dead faith" (and it is), then how can you say that one is saved BEFORE they have their faith accounted to them as righteousness by producing fruit??? <

Because God judges the heart of man and considers that even before any natural fruit comes forth.

>If producing fruit causes one to be justified, then one is NOT saved by faith ALONE for this faith that was ALONE is truly NOT alone if it has to do something. <

I think this is the heart of the matter:

The NATURAL RESULT of a genuine faith is that it produces fruit. You are afraid some people will claim faith, but have no works, and that these people will still claim to be justified. I agree, these people who have no works are NOT justified.

HOWEVER

The reason these folks are not justified is not because they don't have works, but because they don't have genuine faith in Christ.

We are justified by faith ALONE, but genuine faith is not left ALONE. There are NATURAL RESULTS of faith that last all through life.

God considers us righteous because of the genuine Faith, even before Faith becomes evident through our works.

Analogy: When you see a film projector, there is a light inside. This is faith. There is also the natural projection of the light on the movie screen. This is works.

Faith exists in our heart. God considers this faith as righteousness. Works are projected. Faith causes results in time and space.

God values the light and knows the movie will NATURALLY be projected. As long as the light is there, the projection will be there.

As long as we have faith, even if our projection is not perfect, God counts us as righteous.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 26, 2004.


Faith,

I think you misunderstand me. That's all.

Baptism CONVEYS forgiveness, it doesn't CAUSE it, as Kevin believes.

Water Baptism is an action from God towards us, not so much our action towards God.

God sent His Promise into your life, expressed through a preacher, and you believed it and were justified.

This SAME Promise, which saves, is also expressed TO YOU (not by you) in water Baptism, but more personally than through a preacher.

Hope this helps. If not, it's been a great discussion. ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 26, 2004.


Max,

Your analogies do NOT work because of this very simple reason, God says in Hebrews 5:9 that Jesus is, "the author of eternal salvation to ALL WHO OBEY HIM."

If someone has to OBEY HIM, then it is OBVIOUS that more than faith ALONE is required for one to be saved. If the gospel is "the power of God to salvation", then one MUST "obey the gospel" in order to be saved. Obedience to the gospel requires MORE than faith ALONE. Faith is the BEGINNING point on the road to salvation, NOT the ending point.

You wrote, "Paul clearly writes over and over what THEE CONDITION is for God to consider a person righteous: FAITH."

To which I agree, where we DISAGREE is at what point someone is saved. You seem to want to add the word ALONE into the text and this is NOT what the word of God teachs. Yes, we are justified by FAITH, but NOT until one COMPLIES with ALL of the CONDITIONS God requires one MUST do in order to be saved.

You wrote, "Faith is THEE CONDITION for JUSTIFICATION. Paul is clear on this. He doesn't spend so much ink and parchment trying to prove that faith is just one condition out of several. That's what the Judaizers thought."

If faith is the "CONDITION for JUSTIFICATION" as you assert then please explain WHY we will be judged by our WORKS???

What does God say??? "Show me your faith WITHOUT YOUR WORKS, and I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18).

One can CLAIM that they have faith, but if their faith does NOT have WORKS, it is a DEAD FAITH. (James 2:20, 24, 26).

You wrote, "Washing our sin away in Baptism is washing away the sins that are already forgiven in God's heart. He declares it to us personally in Baptism."

Actually baptism WASHES away one's sins. There is NO Mention that God has already forgiven our sins PRIOR to one being baptized. This is merely your OPINION and is NOT what the word of God teaches. Jesus PLAINLY states in Luke 24:47, "and that REPENTANCE AND REMISSION OF SINS should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

This was FULFILLED in Acts 2:38 when Peter said, "REPENT, and let every one of you BE BAPTIZED in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS;"

Peter didn't say: "God has already forgiven you in His heart because you believe in Jesus Christ, now be baptized to declare that your sins are already forgiven."

This is what Max wants the word of God to teach, but nothing could be further from the truth.

You wrote, "1 Peter 1:7 - "These have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." Are you going to tell me that Peter has to add the word ALONE here to be sure we don't think he is talking about something else in addition to faith? No, that'd be absurd. Peter is telling us how valuable our faith is. He's speaking about faith - that same condition in our heart that brings justification, according to Paul."

How is one's faith PROVED genuine Max if they don't have to do anything in order to be saved??? If one's faith has to be PROVED, then one MUST do something to have their faith reckoned to them as righteousness.

How can someone as 1 Peter 1:9 teaches receive the "end of their faith--the salvation of their souls" if they are saved when they first believe???

You claim that one is saved at the beginning of their faith. Peter does NOT agree with you.

You wrote, "I think you seriously misunderstand what "faith alone" means. Faith requires an "object" of trust. Faith is not some ungrounded feeling in nothing... the faith that Paul speaks of is grounded in Christ and His Promise. Only by this faith are we are justified in God's eyes."

This is still a faith that has NO works which is what faith ALONE means. Jesus does NOT require one to merely TRUST in Him for salvation. He requires one to DO WHAT HE SAYS. (James 1:22-25).

You wrote, "Our faith in Christ justifies us. The washing of water Baptism is a washing of absolution - the announcement by God that our sins are forgiven."

Our faith in Christ ONLY justifies us when we DO what He says. Jesus said in John 14:23-24, "23 If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

You wrote, "You are seriously confusing the moment God ACCOUNTS us righteous with the moment God ANNOUNCES us righteous."

God does NOT forgive us of our sins UNTIL we obey the gospel. It is that simple. There is no such thing as God "announcing us as righteous".

I wrote, "I believe that Christians are justified THROUGH faith, just like the word of God states."

To which you replied, "No you don't. You cannot accept we are accounted righteous in God's eyes because of faith and then say we need to add something to faith in order to be accounted righteous. You contradict yourself."

Sorry Max, you are the one who is mistaken. I believe that one is justified THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE. Through faith means ALL of the "steps of the faith" (Romans 4:12) the God requires in order for one to be saved. I am NOT adding something to faith, without faith, one will NOT believe in the gospel of Christ, without faith, one will NOT repent of their sins, without faith, one will NOT confess Jesus as Lord, without faith, one will NOT be baptized FOR the remission of their sins, without faith, one will NOT remain faithful until they die. There is NO contradiction here except the one you have created. You wrote, "No twisting required. God's Word is clear. We are justified by faith. The condition is faith. You're adding BAPTISM to the verses. I'm adding nothing."

Once again Max you are mistaken. Yes God's word is CLEAR we are justified by faith, we are ALSO justified by WORKS. If baptism saves, and it does, and baptism is a response of faith, then how am I adding baptism to these verses??? You say that you are adding nothing, this is true, but you are taking away, repentance, confession, and baptism from the equation. You wrote, "What, according to Paul's writings, justifies us in God's eyes: A. Faith B. the Results of Faith You are mixing A and B, even though you accept that they are two distinct things."

Actually we are justified by MORE than faith. We are justified by our words (Matt. 12:37), Jesus blood (Rom. 5:9), Baptism and the Spirit justifies (1 Cor. 6:11) - Note they were WASHED, a clear reference to baptism and notice how this is a clear reference to John 3:5. We are also justified by the grace of Jesus (Tit. 3:7), and by works (James 2:24).

You wrote, "It's obvious that a Faith grounded in Christ DOES have Results. However, it's this Faith, NOT THE RESULTS of Faith, that God considers as righteousness. Abraham was considered righteous before he manifested that faith."

You can't have it both ways, either one is saved by faith ALONE without WORKS, or one is saved by faith WHEN their faith leads they to DO the things Christ has commanded in His word. No, Abraham was NOT considered righteous BEFORE he manifested his faith, that is merely your OPINION and is NOT substantiated in the word of God. Where does Scripture state that Abraham was "considered righteous BEFORE he manifested faith"???

You wrote, "You have FAITH You have the MANIFESTATION of FAITH Do not confuse the two."

There is ONLY one type of faith, and that is a faith that WORKS and does what God commands. If one does NOT have faith, they will NOT do what God commands, it is that simple.

I wrote, "If faith without works is a "dead faith" (and it is), then how can you say that one is saved BEFORE they have their faith accounted to them as righteousness by producing fruit???"

To which you replied, "Because God judges the heart of man and considers that even before any natural fruit comes forth."

Actually God judges the heart THROUGH HIS WORD. (See Heb. 4:12-13). God NEVER says that He will forgive those who have faith WITHOUT works. (See Luke 8:15).

You wrote, "We are justified by faith ALONE, but genuine faith is not left ALONE. There are NATURAL RESULTS of faith that last all through life."

Now you are changing your tune. First you say that one is saved by faith ALONE without WORKS (you stated earlier that I was adding baptism as a condition of faith) but yet a genuine faith is not left ALONE. You can't have it both ways. Either faith ALONE saves, or faith with WORKS saves. Which one is it Max??? If faith ALONE saves, then there can be NO works.

You wrote, "God considers us righteous because of the genuine Faith, even before Faith becomes evident through our works. Analogy: When you see a film projector, there is a light inside. This is faith. There is also the natural projection of the light on the movie screen. This is works. Faith exists in our heart. God considers this faith as righteousness. Works are projected. Faith causes results in time and space. God values the light and knows the movie will NATURALLY be projected. As long as the light is there, the projection will be there. As long as we have faith, even if our projection is not perfect, God counts us as righteous."

The TRUTH of the matter is, God says in John 3:21, "But he who DOES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his DEEDS may be CLEARLY SEEN, that they have been done in God."

Faith without works is dead, it is that simple. (James 2:20, 24, 26).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


>Your analogies do NOT work because of this very simple reason, God says in Hebrews 5:9 that Jesus is, "the author of eternal salvation to ALL WHO OBEY HIM." <

Don't forget, believing is obedience. All are commanded to believe.

>If someone has to OBEY HIM, then it is OBVIOUS that more than faith ALONE is required for one to be saved.<

Faith is obedience.

Also, you do not obey God. Are you going to hell?

> You seem to want to add the word ALONE into the text and this is NOT what the word of God teachs. <

As stated before, adding the word ALONE would be redundant.

>Yes, we are justified by FAITH, but NOT until one COMPLIES with ALL of the CONDITIONS God requires one MUST do in order to be saved.<

Paul said we are justified by faith. You say faith + works. I'll stick with Mr. Paul.

>If faith is the "CONDITION for JUSTIFICATION" as you assert then please explain WHY we will be judged by our WORKS??? <

Justification and the final judgment are two different things.

Works of believers will certainly be judged on the Last Day... to see what degree of reward we deserve.

>What does God say??? "Show me your faith WITHOUT YOUR WORKS, and I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18). <

God didn't say that, James said that. God doesn't need faith. ;) I can show you or James my faith by my works, but God can see my faith before my works.

>One can CLAIM that they have faith, but if their faith does NOT have WORKS, it is a DEAD FAITH. (James 2:20, 24, 26)<

Yep, a REAL faith will express itself in love. We are only justified by REAL faith alone, not a FAKE faith.

>Peter didn't say: "God has already forgiven you in His heart because you believe in Jesus Christ, now be baptized to declare that your sins are already forgiven."<

That's not what I said. That's the view of those who do not believe we receive God's Word of forgiveness in Baptism...

We don't declare anything in Baptism, except that we are presenting ourselves for GOD'S ABSOLUTION. God is the one declaring forgiveness, not us. But, God is a personal being, not a machine. He forgives in His heart before He expresses it in Word/Baptism.

>How is one's faith PROVED genuine Max if they don't have to do anything in order to be saved??? If one's faith has to be PROVED, then one MUST do something to have their faith reckoned to them as righteousness.<

God doesn't need proof of faith. God sees the heart. He knows the proof will naturally follow genuine faith. Gos is a personal being, not a machine.

>How can someone as 1 Peter 1:9 teaches receive the "end of their faith--the salvation of their souls" if they are saved when they first believe??? You claim that one is saved at the beginning of their faith. Peter does NOT agree with you. <

That verse is speaking about Christ's second coming.

PAST TENSE: Col 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

PAST TENSE: "By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED, though faith"

Salvation is a past, present, and future experience. It's not just FUTURE TENSE as you may claim according to the verse you quoted. Sorry, Peter does agree with me - and so does Paul.

>This is still a faith that has NO works which is what faith ALONE means. Jesus does NOT require one to merely TRUST in Him for salvation. He requires one to DO WHAT HE SAYS<

You still misunderstand what "BY FAITH ALONE" means. You're still thinking that phrase means "only a faith that does not produce works saves" That's not the claim.

It's the faith that counts as righteousness, not the works. Works are the natural by-product of a REAL faith. This is not to diminish the value of works. Works are important because they glorify the Father. An angel doesn't do good deeds to be saved. An angel does good things because that's his nature. Christ didn't do good deeds in order to be saved. Good works were a natural by-product of His character. A Christian is not saved by good works. Good works are the natural by-product of a person who has received the divine nature. It's the Spirit of Christ that works good deeds through us. If the Spirit of God is in you, He will manifest through your actions.

< Our faith in Christ ONLY justifies us when we DO what He says. <

One thing I know about you Kevin... you do not fully obey God. Thus, you are not justified.... thus, you are under God's wrath.

>God does NOT forgive us of our sins UNTIL we obey the gospel. It is that simple. There is no such thing as God "announcing us as righteous". <

God forgives us after we obey, but He never tells us. Do you live in a constant fear of condemnation? Or do you trust that your works are perfect?

> You say that you are adding nothing, this is true, but you are taking away, repentance, confession, and baptism from the equation.<

I never claimed we are to reject these. All these are products of faith, not faith itself. It's faith that God counts as righteous.

Works of faith are not faith. Don't mix it up. Just like you can't mix Christ's humanity with His divinity, you can't mix faith and works. They are certainly together, but they are not mixed. God considers faith as righteousness. The automatic by-product of faith is works. A person can do works without REAL faith, but a person cannot have REAL faith without naturally producing works. It's the faith that counts, not the works, though.

>You can't have it both ways, either one is saved by faith ALONE without WORKS, or one is saved by faith WHEN their faith leads they to DO the things Christ has commanded in His word.<

You still can't see it. FAITH ALONE means it's the faith, not the works that God considers as righteousness. This does not mean that works do not naturally follow. If you still can't understand this, you're assuming my position and are fighting with your assumption.

"No, Abraham was NOT considered righteous BEFORE he manifested his faith, that is merely your OPINION and is NOT substantiated in the word of God. Where does Scripture state that Abraham was "considered righteous BEFORE he manifested faith"???<

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

(Abraham was justified by works, but not before God.)

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

(In Genesis chapter 15, this verse occurs LONG BEFORE circumcision. Unless I'm mistaken, circumcision isn't even commanded until 2 chapters later.)

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

(Salvation is a free gift, not a reward, like a work paycheck.)

Rom 4:5 But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness.

Clear as it can get - courtesy of St. Paul.

>There is ONLY one type of faith, and that is a faith that WORKS and does what God commands. If one does NOT have faith, they will NOT do what God commands, it is that simple. <

You still missed the point. Oh well...

>Now you are changing your tune. First you say that one is saved by faith ALONE without WORKS (you stated earlier that I was adding baptism as a condition of faith) but yet a genuine faith is not left ALONE. You can't have it both ways. Either faith ALONE saves, or faith with WORKS saves. Which one is it Max??? If faith ALONE saves, then there can be NO works.<

I seriously wonder if you know what I'm saying and are ignoring it or if you just don't get it...

A. A person claims to have faith, but doesn't love his neighbor. B. A person has genuine faith in his heart. He also does good works. C. A person has no faith, but pretends to have faith by his works.

These are the only possibilities. There is NO SUCH THING as a person who has REAL faith but does not manifest it. Nobody ever claimed such a thing... at least I haven't.

Scripture clearly states that it's the faith, not the works, that God accounts as righteousness. Man considers the works as evidence of justification, but God needs no evidence. He knows whether our faith is genuine or not, even when we're asleep and not doing a thing. Even if we've slipped into a coma.

>The TRUTH of the matter is, God says in John 3:21, "But he who DOES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his DEEDS may be CLEARLY SEEN, that they have been done in God." <

Yes, but God is omniscient and can see the past and the future. He can also see your heart and every secret thought, whether good or evil.

A man can pretend and appear to be perfect in works and still not have REAL FAITH in Jesus as His Savior. All this person is doing is trusting in His own works instead of trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus for his right standing with God. He is either trying to deceive those around him or he is avoiding a REAL personal conversion to Christ by deceiving himself with his good works.

Usually, this type of person will try to hold you to the letter of God's commands as the way of having God's favor, but he himself fails both the letter and the spirit of God's commands.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 27, 2004.


Max wrote, "Paul said we are justified by faith. You say faith + works. I'll stick with Mr. Paul."

James said we are justified by works. You can stick with Paul who only gives half the story. I will stick with James AND Paul, the whole enchilada.

I wrote, "If faith is the "CONDITION for JUSTIFICATION" as you assert then please explain WHY we will be judged by our WORKS???"

To which Max replied, "Justification and the final judgment are two different things."

Actually they are NOT two different things. Now we only have salvation as a PROMISE. Actual salvation will not be given UNTIL Jesus returns to JUDGE all men. (Rev. 20:12-15).

I wrote, "What does God say??? "Show me your faith WITHOUT YOUR WORKS, and I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18)."

To which Max replied, "God didn't say that, James said that. God doesn't need faith. ;) I can show you or James my faith by my works, but God can see my faith before my works."

Excuse me??? God DID say this for He WROTE the Bible. Since God WROTE the Bible (through the men who were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit to write), then God did in FACT state that faith WITHOUT works is DEAD. The word of God PLAINLY states in John 9:31,"God DOES NOT HEAR SINNERS; but IF anyone is a WORSHIPER OF GOD and DOES HIS WILL, He HEARS him."

I wrote, "One can CLAIM that they have faith, but if their faith does NOT have WORKS, it is a DEAD FAITH. (James 2:20, 24, 26).

To which Max replied, "Yep, a REAL faith will express itself in love. We are only justified by REAL faith alone, not a FAKE faith."

So much for your faith ALONE salvation. One cannot have a REAL faith UNTIL they DO something.

I wrote, "Peter didn't say: "God has already forgiven you in His heart because you believe in Jesus Christ, now be baptized to declare that your sins are already forgiven."

To which Max replied, "That's not what I said. That's the view of those who do not believe we receive God's Word of forgiveness in Baptism..."

I didn't say that Max said... I said Peter didn't say... there is a difference. I made this statement to point out the FACT that those who believe that one is saved by faith ALONE really don't know what they are talking about.

Max wrote, "We don't declare anything in Baptism, except that we are presenting ourselves for GOD'S ABSOLUTION. God is the one declaring forgiveness, not us. But, God is a personal being, not a machine. He forgives in His heart before He expresses it in Word/Baptism."

Actually, baptism is FOR the remission of sins. Jesus shed His blood (we are saved by the blood of Jesus) in His death. We contact His blood when we are "baptized INTO His death" (Rom. 6:3) which is in the watery grave of baptism. One does NOT contact the blood of Christ wherein salvation is located UNTIL they are baptized. Faith ALONE without baptism NEVER saved anyone.

Max wrote, "God doesn't need proof of faith. God sees the heart. He knows the proof will naturally follow genuine faith. Gos is a personal being, not a machine."

Actually God DOES need PROOF of our faith.

James 1:12 states, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been APPROVED, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

Prov 17:3 states, "3 The refining pot is for silver and the furnace for gold, But the LORD TESTS the hearts."

Heb 11:17 states, "By faith Abraham, when he was TESTED, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"

James 1:2-5 states, "2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the TESTING OF YOUR FAITH produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."

Jeremiah 17:10 states, "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings."

He will NOT save those who do NOT do what He says.

I wrote, "How can someone as 1 Peter 1:9 teaches receive the "end of their faith--the salvation of their souls" if they are saved when they first believe??? You claim that one is saved at the beginning of their faith. Peter does NOT agree with you."

To which Max replied, "That verse is speaking about Christ's second coming. PAST TENSE: Col 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:" PAST TENSE: "By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED, though faith" Salvation is a past, present, and future experience. It's not just FUTURE TENSE as you may claim according to the verse you quoted. Sorry, Peter does agree with me - and so does Paul."

Of course this verse is speaking about Christ's second coming. It ALSO speaks of "the salvation of their souls". Actually, we have eternal life in PROMISE only. (1 John 2:25) and hope. (Titus 1:2). Eternal life in ACTUALITY will be received in the world to come. (Mark 10:30).

Max wrote, "You still misunderstand what "BY FAITH ALONE" means. You're still thinking that phrase means "only a faith that does not produce works saves" That's not the claim. It's the faith that counts as righteousness, not the works. Works are the natural by-product of a REAL faith. This is not to diminish the value of works. Works are important because they glorify the Father. An angel doesn't do good deeds to be saved. An angel does good things because that's his nature. Christ didn't do good deeds in order to be saved. Good works were a natural by-product of His character. A Christian is not saved by good works. Good works are the natural by-product of a person who has received the divine nature. It's the Spirit of Christ that works good deeds through us. If the Spirit of God is in you, He will manifest through your actions."

God says we are:

- saved by calling on the name of the Lord - Romans 10:13 - saved by faith - John 3:16, 3:36, Acts 15:9, John 6:29 - saved by repentance - Luke 24:46-47, Acts 2:38 - saved by confession - Romans 10:9-10 - saved by baptism - Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21 - saved by obedience - Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:8-9, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 - saved by works - Philippians 2:12, James 2:17-18 - saved by hope - Romans 8:24 - saved by our efforts - Acts 2:40, 1 Timothy 4:16 - saved by our enduring - Matthew 24:13, Revelation 2:10

We are not saved by any one thing alone. If we would please God, we must accept ALL that His word teaches. Jesus in His sermon on the mount taught us that not every one that claims to be a follower of His, will be saved. The only ones that will be saved will be those that do the will of the Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21).

I wrote, "Our faith in Christ ONLY justifies us when we DO what He says."

To which Max replied, "One thing I know about you Kevin... you do not fully obey God. Thus, you are not justified.... thus, you are under God's wrath."

You CLAIM to know that I do not fully obey God, but you really do NOT know what you are talking about. I have obeyd the gospel, and am working out my salvation, hence I am saved. You on the other hand, have NOT obeyed the gospel, and unless you do what God has commanded, you will be lost. I have done what God has commanded. God does NOT command perfect obedience, no one can ever accomplish this at least in this lifetime.

I wrote, "God does NOT forgive us of our sins UNTIL we obey the gospel. It is that simple. There is no such thing as God "announcing us as righteous."

To which Max replied, "God forgives us after we obey, but He never tells us."

Yes Max, God TELLS us when we are forgiven. There are NUMEROUS conditional statements in the Bible that state IF you do this, you will live.

Max wrote, "Do you live in a constant fear of condemnation? Or do you trust that your works are perfect?"

No, I don't live in constant fear of condemnation NOR do I trust that my works are perfect.

I wrote, "You say that you are adding nothing, this is true, but you are taking away, repentance, confession, and baptism from the equation."

To which Max replied, "I never claimed we are to reject these. All these are products of faith, not faith itself. It's faith that God counts as righteous. Works of faith are not faith. Don't mix it up. Just like you can't mix Christ's humanity with His divinity, you can't mix faith and works. They are certainly together, but they are not mixed. God considers faith as righteousness. The automatic by-product of faith is works. A person can do works without REAL faith, but a person cannot have REAL faith without naturally producing works. It's the faith that counts, not the works, though."

No, you said that our faith ALONE counts us as righteous. Again one must take ALL that God has said concerning what one must do in order to be saved. This INCLUDES repentance, confession and baptism as these are ALL works OF faith. If works of faith are not faith as you allege, then what are they???

I wrote, "You can't have it both ways, either one is saved by faith ALONE without WORKS, or one is saved by faith WHEN their faith leads they to DO the things Christ has commanded in His word."

To which Max replied, "You still can't see it. FAITH ALONE means it's the faith, not the works that God considers as righteousness. This does not mean that works do not naturally follow. If you still can't understand this, you're assuming my position and are fighting with your assumption."

Max you are the one who MISUNDERSTANDS what TRUE faith really consists of. Faith is NOT something that one can have UNTIL this faith MOVES them to DO what God has COMMANDED in His word. One is NOT said to have faith UNTIL they DO something. Faith is NOT some mental acquiesance that one has NOR is it trusting in Christ without any outward actions.

We are saved by a faith that works. (Gal. 5:6). Faith enough to do what God commands. (John 14:15). Abraham did not keep the law of God perfectly, but he OBEYED God. And it was his faith PLUS his obedience that resulted in his justification. If God does not intend for us to obey him, then he has a lot of meaningless verses in the Bible. For example, why was the one talent man cast into torment in Matt. 25:30? If God does not demand obedience, if one is justified before God by means of faith ALONE, then why was the unprofitable servant punished? I'll tell you why he was punished, it was because he FAILED to WORK for the Lord. He BELIEVED in his master. As a matter of fact, when the Lord returned from his journey and called his servants to give an account, the one talent man was punished because he had not worked for his Lord. He is told in verse 27, "So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest." Here was a man who was LOST even though he had faith.

Now, if the doctrine of justification by faith ALONE is true, then Jesus wasted a lot of time and scripture telling us about this man. Also, if this doctrine is true, then Jesus wasted more time giving us the useless warning about judgment in Matt. 25:40-46. Jesus said "Then he will also say to those on the left hand, depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." What was the reason these on the left hand were condemned into eternal torment? Was it because they did not have faith?

Not at all!!!

The reason these were condemned, according to the next three verses, was because they had not worked: "For I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me."

There are things that MUST be done before we can be forgiven and there are things that must be done after we receive the remission of sins. Jesus said in Mk. 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." There is no way anyone should misunderstand this SIMPLE statement of Jesus. Before one can be saved, he must not only have faith (believe on Christ) but he must also DO something, that is, one MUST be baptized.

The problem with you Max and those who believe and teach salvation by faith ALONE is this: You fail to understand that faith and works are not mutually exclusive. Not only do you have a complete misunderstanding of the kind of works Paul discusses in Rom. 3 and 4, but you seem unable to comprehend that grace and obedience are compatible.

The books of James and Romans perfectly complement each other. Both are discussing justification by faith. Romans destroys the notion that justification can be achieved by works ALONE and James destroys the doctrine that justification is by faith ALONE. The conclusion is that justification is by faith PLUS obeying the works ordained by God. This is something that is seen throughout the Bible.

In John 12:42 we read, "Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." Here were some people who believed in Christ, but they did not confess that belief. Also, the reason they were unwilling to confess their belief in Christ was because they "loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."

Is one saved who believes in Christ but will not profess that belief because he loves the praise of men more than the praise of God?

The Bible says no, and I agree. But you who teach faith ALONE salvation say yes!

The Bible says in John 8:31, "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him, if you abide in my word, you are my disciples indeed."

What did it take to be a disciple of Jesus according to this verse???

If you said "faith", then you were only half right. Faith is essential but it is NOT the only thing necessary. It takes belief and abiding in the word of Christ.

The Bible teaches that NO ONE has been, can be, or will be justified by faith ALONE. It takes faith PLUS obedience to the words of scripture to be saved.

I wrote, "No, Abraham was NOT considered righteous BEFORE he manifested his faith, that is merely your OPINION and is NOT substantiated in the word of God. Where does Scripture state that Abraham was "considered righteous BEFORE he manifested faith"???"

To which Max replied, "Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (Abraham was justified by works, but not before God.)" Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

If we are to understand the message of Romans, we must first understand the word works. In this context, works means perfect keeping of the law. Abraham did not keep perfectly the will of God. As a matter of divine record, I know of an occasion when Abraham lied. He bore false testimony. But he certainly obeyed God when called to do so. James 2:21?23 says this about this man Abraham: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED which says, Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. And he was called the friend of God."

Abraham did not keep the law of God perfectly, but he obeyed God. And it was his faith PLUS his obedience that resulted in his justification.

Max wrote, "Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (Salvation is a free gift, not a reward, like a work paycheck.)"

Again, this work is speaking of the works of the Law of Moses, NOT works of obedience.

Max wrote, "Rom 4:5 But to him that WORKETH NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his FAITH is counted for righteousness. Clear as it can get - courtesy of St. Paul."

Yes, CLEAR as it can get however Paul was NOT talking about works of OBEDIENCE, he was talking about the works of the LAW of Moses. I seriously wonder if you know what I'm saying and are ignoring it or if you just don't get it...A. A person claims to have faith, but doesn't love his neighbor. B. A person has genuine faith in his heart. He also does good works. C. A person has no faith, but pretends to have faith by his works. These are the only possibilities. There is NO SUCH THING as a person who has REAL faith but does not manifest it. Nobody ever claimed such a thing... at least I haven't. Scripture clearly states that it's the faith, not the works, that God accounts as righteousness. Man considers the works as evidence of justification, but God needs no evidence. He knows whether our faith is genuine or not, even when we're asleep and not doing a thing. Even if we've slipped into a coma."

A believer is NOT YET born into the family of God at the point of belief only. The scriptures say that the devils believe (James 2:19), and Cornelius was a devout man (Acts 10:1-2), but such are STILL UNSAVED. Jesus said, "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).

In Romans 10:8-10 Paul said that the acceptance of "the word of faith" prompts us to believe UNTO righteousness, and this in turn causes one to confess with the mouth UNTO salvation. It is the arising from the waters of baptism, however, which brings forth the new creature (Rom. 6:3-7).

The ONLY WAY we can get into Christ is to be baptized into Him (Gal. 3:27).

Baptism IS FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and it is the CULMINATION of the process that saves us (I Peter 3:21). Baptism in water, with the understanding taught by the words of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God, grants us remission of sins and places us among the saved as newborn babes that have completed the new birth and are part of the family of God.

It is significant that in every detailed case of conversion in the book of Acts, the conversion was NOT complete UNTIL baptism occurred. As Ananias told Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' " (Acts 22:16). If seeing the Lord, confessing the Lord, and praying with fasting could have saved Saul, he would have NO sins to wash away. Just as the Ethiopian saw the NEED for water baptism, Saul was INSTRUCTED that the same should be done to him as something he "MUST DO" (Acts 9:6). It is ONLY after this rebirth in the waters of baptism that these men could "go on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39).

The phrase of being "born again" occurs in only two New Testament passages.

Jesus said we are born again "of water and of the Spirit" (John 3:5), and Peter says that the word of God is the incorruptible seed that allows us to be "born again" (I Peter 1:23). Water alone will not save, and baptism is not like taking a bath to remove the filth of the flesh (I Peter 3:21). There is nothing special or magical about the water, but the union of our immersion in water and our understanding (taught by the Spirit) that Jesus is the Son of God allows the operation of God to transform us into a new creature free from sin (Co. 2:11-13; Rom 6:17-18; II Cor. 5:17).

What about you Max? You claim that you are saved, but are you really? If you have not been born again of water and the Spirit, then you do not have the hope of eternal life. Obey the gospel before it is too late. The first time the gospel was preached under the New Covenant, "They then that received his word were baptized," (Acts 2:41). People today who receive the gospel do the same thing.

I wrote, "The TRUTH of the matter is, God says in John 3:21, "But he who DOES THE TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his DEEDS may be CLEARLY SEEN, that they have been done in God."

To which Max replied, "Yes, but God is omniscient and can see the past and the future. He can also see your heart and every secret thought, whether good or evil."

We will be judged by what is WRITTEN. (John 12:48, Rev. 20:12). It is the word of God that judges our condition and our obedience to His word will be our standard of judgment. (Heb. 4:12-13).

Max wrote, "A man can pretend and appear to be perfect in works and still not have REAL FAITH in Jesus as His Savior. All this person is doing is trusting in His own works instead of trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus for his right standing with God. He is either trying to deceive those around him or he is avoiding a REAL personal conversion to Christ by deceiving himself with his good works. Usually, this type of person will try to hold you to the letter of God's commands as the way of having God's favor, but he himself fails both the letter and the spirit of God's commands."

Max, you stumble being "disobedient to the word", (1 Peter 2:8) and it is by Jesus very words that we will be judged. (John 12:48). Yes, we will be judged by the Bible and remember, even Jesus told the devil that, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" (Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4). If you will notice, Jesus said EVERY WORD, he didn't just pick and choose which words to OBEY His Father, He meant what He said. Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) Notice how Jesus said, salvation comes AFTER baptism.

You, like the Pharisees and lawyers in Luke 7:30 reject the will of God for yourself because they were rejected the will of God, for they were also NOT baptized for the remission of their sins.

Jesus says, "He who believes and is baptized WILL BE saved;..." (Mark 16:16).

You want this passage to say, "He who believes IS SAVED and then is baptized because he is already saved.

Your man made salvation formula is belief = salvation then baptism. Jesus salvation formula in Mark 16:16 is belief + baptism = salvation.

The question then becomes not what does the Bible say?

It is OBVIOUS!!!

The question now is, will you obey God's plan or man's plan?

There is still a chance for you though, don't be like the foolish man who built his house on the sand, be like the wise man who built his house on the rock, before it is too late. The Gospel = Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Baptism has three things in common with the gospel, a Death, a Burial and a Resurrection. Jesus blood was shed in his death (John 19:31-34) and baptism puts one into His death. (Romans 6:3-4). It is in Baptism that one OBEYS the gospel. God's vengeance will be on those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL. (2 Thessalonians 1:8). It is from Baptism that one is resurrected to a new life. (Romans 6:4). One is NOT a child of God UNTIL they have OBEYED the gospel. This is why Peter told the multitude in Acts 2:38 to be baptized for the remission of their sins, and the EXACT same reason that Ananias told Paul to WASH AWAY HIS SINS in Acts 22:16.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 27, 2004.


>You can stick with Paul who only gives half the story.<

And so your credibility continues to slide...

>Actually they are NOT two different things. Now we only have salvation as a PROMISE. Actual salvation will not be given UNTIL Jesus returns to JUDGE all men. (Rev. 20:12-15).<

Like I said, two different things. You just proved it by your own response. One is the Promise of Home. One is Home. However, if someone picks you up after you strand your car in snow, you can rightly say you are saved even before you reach home, especially if Jesus is driving. ;)

>Excuse me??? God DID say this for He WROTE the Bible. <

Kevin, James was not writing as if God's words were coming straight through his pen. James was saying, "Show me (James) your faith... etc." not "Show me (God) your faith...etc." From that verse, James is clearly speaking from a human perspective, as a fellow Christian, not as God. That's not to say his words do not hold authority, but you have to interpret scripture taking such things into account.

or you lose credibility...

>To which Max replied, "Yep, a REAL faith will express itself in love. We are only justified by REAL faith alone, not a FAKE faith."

So much for your faith ALONE salvation. One cannot have a REAL faith UNTIL they DO something. <

You do not understand the short phrase "FAITH ALONE" even though I've demonstrated it in scripture, by reason, and by analogy. You still don't "get it" because you say things like this that prove you don't understand what "FAITH ALONE" means in reference to justification.

Isn't it vain to debate ideas if you don't even take the time to understand the other person's views? You prove over and over you don't "get it."

>I made this statement to point out the FACT that those who believe that one is saved by faith ALONE really don't know what they are talking about. <

I'm sorry, but you don't even understand what a person means by the phrase "Faith Alone" so how can you know one way or the other?

>Faith ALONE without baptism NEVER saved anyone.<

You don't understand the phrase "Faith Alone" Kevin.

>Actually God DOES need PROOF of our faith. <

God tests faith to refine it and prove it to others, not Himself. Think Job.

>He will NOT save those who do NOT do what He says.<

I guess that leaves you out, by your own admission, since you admit you do not do what He says.

>Actually, we have eternal life in PROMISE only. (1 John 2:25) and hope. (Titus 1:2). Eternal life in ACTUALITY will be received in the world to come. <

Correct, but faith is the substance of what we hope for. Being rescued from a burning building, it's fine to say you're saved even before the fireman lets go of you. The promise is sure, especially if God makes the Promise.

>We are not saved by any one thing alone. <

I have One Savior. How many do you have?

>Jesus in His sermon on the mount taught us that not every one that claims to be a follower of His, will be saved. <

Correct, especially those who look squeaky clean on the outside, have gotten baptized, etc. These never had REAL faith in Jesus as Savior. Some who do miracles in Jesus Name won't even be saved, because they trust in their own good works, not in the very Savior they preach of.

>I have obeyd the gospel, and am working out my salvation, hence I am saved.<

By your own words, you can't actually claim to be "saved" past tense.

>God does NOT command perfect obedience <

Jesus disagrees:

"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Sounds like a command to me.

Kevin, you can't say on one hand: "You must fully OBEY God."

And then on the other hand say: "God does NOT command perfect obedience"

Well, I guess you can, but you're contradicting yourself.

>Yes Max, God TELLS us when we are forgiven. There are NUMEROUS conditional statements in the Bible that state IF you do this, you will live.<

Making a condition and telling someone they are forgiven are two different things. Telling your son to rake the leaves for $20 and actually handing him a $20 bill are two different things. God commands us to believe. When we do, we are granted Baptism, the Word of God's forgiveness.

>If works of faith are not faith as you allege, then what are they??? <

They are actions in time and space. Faith is an attitude of the heart which manifests through action. However, the attitude and the action are distinct... linked, but distinct.

>Faith is NOT something that one can have UNTIL this faith MOVES them to DO what God has COMMANDED in His word.<

Huh? If faith is what motivates the action, then faith comes before actions. You may not be able to "see faith" but faith is there... even when you sleep. Do you have faith even when you sleep? Faith is an attitude of the heart.

Do you know what the term "attitude of the heart" means?

>One is NOT said to have faith UNTIL they DO something.<

One is not said by other humans to have faith until they do something. However, God can see the attitude of the heart, even while we are sleeping, even before we do anything.

>Faith is NOT some mental acquiesance that one has NOR is it trusting in Christ without any outward actions. <

Do you trust in Christ even when you're asleep?

>The problem with you Max and those who believe and teach salvation by faith ALONE is this: You fail to understand that faith and works are not mutually exclusive.<

Again, you prove you don't understand the phrase "Salvation by Faith Alone."

>The scriptures say that the devils believe<

That's a weak argument since the devils do not rely on Christ in their hearts for salvation. True faith/belief is relying on Christ, not just knowledge of God, as devils have.

James was fighting the idea that a person can know historical facts and be saved by this sort of faith. This isn't even faith, this is just knowledge. We are not saved by our knowledge. We are saved when we TRUST in Christ. When one realizes the grace of Christ, he naturally lives a life of gratitude, not to gain God's favor, but to gives thanks for God's favor.

>Baptism IS FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and it is the CULMINATION of the process that saves us (I Peter 3:21).<

You contradict yourself too much.

>You, like the Pharisees and lawyers in Luke 7:30 reject the will of God for yourself because they were rejected the will of God, for they were also NOT baptized for the remission of their sins. <

I've been baptized for the remission of sins, but not according to your understanding of that phrase. Baptism doesn't cause forgiveness, it conveys forgiveness. It's God's Word saying, "You are forgiven of your sins."

The rest of your post has been addressed over and over by scripture, reason, and analogy.

When we believe, we are justified. The Heavenly accounts of Eternal Justice are 100% balanced. Christ's work ALONE pays it. Not our works. Nothing we can do can "make up" for our sins. In fact, if we think we can "make up" for our sins by our works, we insult the work of Christ. That's why it's by faith that we appropriate this gift.

When we are Baptized, God ANNOUNCES to us and all creation that we are FORGIVEN. This is what it means to have our sins forgiven.

What is forgiveness, Kevin? Have you ever forgiven someone? Have you ever wronged a friend and been forgiven?

Did your friend set down some sort of ritual to prove yourself first? Do you set up hurdles before your heart has mercy?

Did your friends forgive you in their heart first? Didn't you forgive others in your heart long before they came to you and apologized or made restitution?

Didn't your friends "tell you in word" that they forgave you? Didn't you tell your friend "in word" that you did not hold it against them and were no longer angry at them over their sin?

Not holding a sin against a person and telling them you don't hold a sin against them are two different stages. The first stage is the important one. The next is important too, but does not effect whether you're angry or not.

Wasn't the "word of forgiveness" your friend gave you like being washed clean?

God forgives us in His heart when we repent/believe. God expresses His personal forgiveness through Baptism.

If a person does not TRULY believe, they will not want to come for God's "word of forgiveness" and will die with their uncleansed consciences.

Baptism does not tip the scales of justice.

Only Christ's blood can tip the scales. Through true faith/trust in His blood, even if we're asleep or invalid, His blood cleanses us.

When it's expressed to us through Baptism, it cleanses our conscience, but it doesn't tip the scales of Justice. It may tip the scales of justice in our conscience, but not God's.

God's unmerited favor comes because of Christ alone - through faith alone.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 29, 2004.


Max wrote, "Kevin, James was not writing as if God's words were coming straight through his pen. James was saying, "Show me (James) your faith... etc." not "Show me (God) your faith...etc." From that verse, James is clearly speaking from a human perspective, as a fellow Christian, not as God. That's not to say his words do not hold authority, but you have to interpret scripture taking such things into account. or you lose credibility... "

The TRUTH of the matter is, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states, "All Scripture is GOD-BREATHED and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

God WROTE the Bible, through men who were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit.

Since God WROTE The Bible, His words DID in fact come "straight through his pen". What was that comment about credibility???

Max wrote, "You do not understand the short phrase "FAITH ALONE" even though I've demonstrated it in scripture, by reason, and by analogy. You still don't "get it" because you say things like this that prove you don't understand what "FAITH ALONE" means in reference to justification."

Let us see if this is true: Max wrote, "It's the faith that counts as righteousness, not the works."

God says in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

Either Max is telling the truth or God is telling the truth. I am sure the readers can judge for themselves. Max wrote, "Isn't it vain to debate ideas if you don't even take the time to understand the other person's views? You prove over and over you don't "get it."

Actually I do "get it" and have shown by your very words that you do NOT know what you are talking about. You have said OVER and OVER that one is justified by their faith BEFORE they do any works. I have CUT and PASTED your very words where you say this is the case. Once again, the readers can decide who is not being honest here.

I wrote, "I made this statement to point out the FACT that those who believe that one is saved by faith ALONE really don't know what they are talking about."

To which Max replied, "I'm sorry, but you don't even understand what a person means by the phrase "Faith Alone" so how can you know one way or the other?"

By my quoting your EXACT words above, PROVES that I do "understand" what a person means by the phrase "Faith Alone".

I wrote"Faith ALONE without baptism NEVER saved anyone."

To which Max replied, "You don't understand the phrase "Faith Alone" Kevin."

Let us see if this is true: Max wrote, "Paul said we are justified by faith. You say faith + works. I'll stick with Mr. Paul."

Again, Max says that faith WITHOUT works is what saves. Again, the readers can decide who is not being honest here.

I wrote, "Actually God DOES need PROOF of our faith."

To which Max replied, "God tests faith to refine it and prove it to others, not Himself. Think Job."

Scripture(s) please???

I wrote, "He will NOT save those who do NOT do what He says."

To which Max replied, "I guess that leaves you out, by your own admission, since you admit you do not do what He says."

Come on David. How about being a good moderator and DELETING the posts that are AD HOMINEM attacks such as this one. Max continues to THROW these out, yet you stand by and do NOTHING.

I wrote, "God does NOT command perfect obedience"

To which Max replied, "Jesus disagrees: "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Sounds like a command to me."

Actually Jesus did NOT say that in order to be PERFECT you had to be OBEY all of His commands PERFECTLY. Is there a command in the NT that one CANNOT obey???

I wrote, "Faith is NOT something that one can have UNTIL this faith MOVES them to DO what God has COMMANDED in His word."

To which Max replied, "Huh? If faith is what motivates the action, then faith comes before actions. You may not be able to "see faith" but faith is there... even when you sleep. Do you have faith even when you sleep? Faith is an attitude of the heart."

Yes, faith does come before actions. "Hear what God has to say to those who claim faith justifies with NO actions, Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18).

I wrote, "Faith is NOT some mental acquiesance that one has NOR is it trusting in Christ without any outward actions."

I wrote, "The scriptures say that the devils believe"

To which Max replied, "That's a weak argument since the devils do not rely on Christ in their hearts for salvation. True faith/belief is relying on Christ, not just knowledge of God, as devils have."

It is NOT a "weak argument", do the devils believe in Christ??? Yes or No??? Once again, let the readers decide.

Max wrote, "James was fighting the idea that a person can know historical facts and be saved by this sort of faith. This isn't even faith, this is just knowledge. We are not saved by our knowledge. We are saved when we TRUST in Christ. When one realizes the grace of Christ, he naturally lives a life of gratitude, not to gain God's favor, but to gives thanks for God's favor."

Actually, God said that faith WITHOUT works does NOT save. What does Luke 6:46 say??? Is Jesus the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, or to all who only have faith in Him???

I wrote, "Baptism IS FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and it is the CULMINATION of the process that saves us (I Peter 3:21)."

To which Max replied, "You contradict yourself too much."

Sorry Max, this is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches. Compare Luke 24:47 with Acts 2:38. No contradiction in these verses. Jesus said that REPENTANCE and REMISSION of SINS would be preached beginning in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47) and that is EXACTLY what Peter preached in Acts 2:38 for he said "REPENT and be BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. This PROVES that baptism is FOR the remission of sins.

Many passages indicate that faith plays a crucial, pivotal and vital role in being saved. NO passage in the Bible says we are saved by faith ALONE or by faith ONLY. If you do careful research you will find only ONE verse of scripture uses the expression "faith only" and that is James 2:24: "you see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." That passage CLEARLY teaches we are not saved (justified) by faith only!!!

If a person is saved by faith ONLY he is saved BEFORE he becomes a child of God, for John 1:12 says faith gives a person the right to become a child of God. Faith does NOT make you a child of God. A person saved by faith ONLY is saved BEFORE he TURNS to God (note the distinction in faith and turning in Acts 11:21). He is saved WITHOUT having to CONFESS Christ (note John 12:42) and he is saved while being no better than the devil. (see James 2:10).

Who can believe it?

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 29, 2004.


Kevin,

Sorry, but I don't throughly read Every post here. If something's up, users have to notify me or I probably won't see it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.


Kevin,

Please explain how that is Ad-hom.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 30, 2004.


It is an Ad Hominem attack because Max did not answer the argument for I wrote, I wrote, "He will NOT save those who do NOT do what He says." To which Max replied, "I guess that leaves you out, by your own admission, since you admit you do not do what He says."

If this is not an Ad Hominem attack, then what is it???

Here is a Description of Ad Hominem:

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting).

This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X. 2. Person B makes an attack on person A. 3. Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Copied from: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), June 30, 2004.


>God WROTE the Bible, through men who were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit. Since God WROTE The Bible, His words DID in fact come "straight through his pen". What was that comment about credibility??? <

James 1:2 "My brothers...." James 2:1 "My brothers..." James 2:14 "My brothers..." James 3:1 "My brothers..." James 3:12 "My brothers..." James 5:7 "brothers..." James 5:10 "My brothers..." James 5:12 "My brothers..." James 5:19 "Brothers..."

James is writing as a brother. You can't just cast aside the brotherly aspect of the writing and say it's all God's direct words, otherwise you have God calling His children "brothers" when it's obvious that James is referring to the audience as brothers in Christ, fellow children of the Father.

God doesn't call His children "brothers" does He? James is obviously writing as an elder brother in the faith. His words are to be taken in that context.

When James says, "Show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works" he's obviously speaking from the human perspective to his brothers. He's not speaking as God, since God does not need to "show you His faith by His works" - especially in view of the fact that God doesn't need faith or works to be saved. This verse is from James as a brother. We must interpret within this context.

Eph. 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, that no one should boast."

Either Paul contradicts James, or you're misunderstanding what James is saying and not reading it within context.

Paul says, "not as a result of works" James says, "man is justified by works"

Paul says works don't justify. James says works do justify. Either this is a huge contradiction in doctrine or people are not interpreting WITHIN CONTEXT.

The key is understanding that James was battling against those who claimed to be Christians by faith, but they had no works to back their claim. Their faith was not REAL.

It wasn't that they had REAL FAITH and no works, it was that they had NO REAL FAITH and THUS no real works.

Our works justify/prove our claim to have faith, but it's faith that justifies our standing with God. God counts the faith as righteousness.

The fruits are good, but that's because the branch is good FIRST.

>Once again, the readers can decide who is not being honest here. <

I agree, and I was the one who first said this. ;)

>By my quoting your EXACT words above, PROVES that I do "understand" what a person means by the phrase "Faith Alone". <

Copying and pasting does not mean you understand me. A monkey can copy and paste. (no personal offense here. just making point.)

Your response proves you don't understand, not the fact that you copy and paste my words.

>Again, Max says that faith WITHOUT works is what saves. Again, the readers can decide who is not being honest here. <

Again, it's nice that you appeal to the reader as I do.

This is what you think I'm saying: A - "A Faith that has no accompanying good works still saves."

I'm saying: B - "True Faith saves and good works are a natural result."

If you can't see the difference, I truly apologize that I'm not an expert communicator. It seems clear to me. You keep trying to put me under A and ignore B because you either don't understand the concept of B or... really, I have no idea why you do not address B...

>To which Max replied, "God tests faith to refine it and prove it to others, not Himself. Think Job."

Scripture(s) please??? <

I'm not going to paste the whole book here. I assume you've read it. Here's a refresher: Satan challenged God and God allowed Satan to harrass Job because God knew Job was righteous and would prevail in faith. God counted Job righteous even before Satan tested that faith.

>To which Max replied, "I guess that leaves you out, by your own admission, since you admit you do not do what He says." Come on David. How about being a good moderator and DELETING the posts that are AD HOMINEM attacks such as this one. Max continues to THROW these out, yet you stand by and do NOTHING.<

I seriously cannot see how this is a personal attack. I simply took your own doctrine to the logical end. I'm not attacking you as a person. Perhaps I could have written that line with more sensitivity.

The fact remains, however...

A. You claim you must FULLY OBEY God or go to hell. B. You admit you do not FULLY OBEY God. C. Logical conclusion: you are going to hell because you do not FULLY OBEY God.

I hope this doesn't seem like a personal attack.

>Actually Jesus did NOT say that in order to be PERFECT you had to be OBEY all of His commands PERFECTLY. <

Doesn't fit the context, but for the sake of th point, by what condition can a man be considered perfect if it's not through obedience?

>It is NOT a "weak argument", do the devils believe in Christ??? Yes or No??? Once again, let the readers decide. <

Yes, devils know that Christ exists, but they do not trust in him. You are messing up the meaning of the word "believe in" here.

I believe in the devil, but I do not trust in him for salvation. That'a a huge difference in the meaning of the word, "believe"

I like how you follow my example and appeal to the reader. ;)

>If a person is saved by faith ONLY he is saved BEFORE he becomes a child of God, for John 1:12 says faith gives a person the right to become a child of God. Faith does NOT make you a child of God. A person saved by faith ONLY is saved BEFORE he TURNS to God (note the distinction in faith and turning in Acts 11:21). He is saved WITHOUT having to CONFESS Christ (note John 12:42) and he is saved while being no better than the devil. (see James 2:10). <

We are justified by our reliance on Jesus. Devils do not rely in Jesus for salvation. I won't comment on your obvious mistakes with language or you may think I'm personally attacking you.

My drawing the distinction between the two sorts of "believing" will, hopefully, cause you to consider that the Faith I espaouse is not a mere knowledge, but an active force that causes one to yield to Christ's Spirit so that Christ becomes manifested in our lives through our works. The works that Christ does through me do not justify me from sin. They glorify His Father.

The works that I do now are free thanks offerings to God for His mercy and grace, not in order to pay off a sin debt or maintain a legalistic relationship with my Father. God is my Father and I glorify Him as such through Christ, not to keep from losing Him as my Father, but because that's the natural outflow of a father/son relationship... I trust God has power to hold onto me to the end more than I have power to hold onto Him. In fact, I'm powerless.

"It is not I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), June 30, 2004.


Max,

I do understand what you are saying about faith ALONE that a TRUE faith will show works however, you CANNOT escape the fact that you are saying that one's faith justifies BEFORE they have any works.

Your quibble about James speaking of brothers is nothing more than speculation on your part for God says in Romans 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." therefore Jesus IS our brother. (See also Hebrews 2:10-11 and 17-18).

"For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50).

Paul does not contradict James.

God WROTE the Bible and He meant what He said in James 2:20, "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

Nowhere does the Bible say that one is justified by faith ONLY. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), but the words "ONLY" and "ALONE" are not in the text, neither are they implied. They are NOT there because God never intended that one be saved ONLY by their FAITH. This is a damnable doctrine of many religious bodies today and will cause the loss of many souls in eternity.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 01, 2004.


>you CANNOT escape the fact that you are saying that one's faith justifies BEFORE they have any works. <

Yes, one's faith justifies even before the works come to fruition. Abraham was justified when he believed God's promise, even as they were conversing, before he did anything. GEN 15.

>Your quibble about James speaking of brothers is nothing more than speculation on your part for God says in Romans 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." therefore Jesus IS our brother. (See also Hebrews 2:10-11 and 17-18). <

Jesus is our Brother, but the epistle is from James, not Jesus. You forget the writer totally in your interpretation. Yes, James has authority as an Apostle, but you can't seriously think that when James said, "I'll show you my faith by my works" he wasn't speaking as James.

Who is the "I" in that sentence? When James says, "My brothers..." do you really think he's speaking as Jesus and not James?

>God WROTE the Bible and He meant what He said in James 2:20, "But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" <

I agree. A faith that produces no works is no faith. That's what "dead" means. It doesn't exist.

However, where there is faith there is works.

But, it is not the works that gain justification. It's faith appropriating the work of Christ on the cross.

If you add to the work of Christ's sacrifice, you insult it as not sufficient to cover all sins.

>Nowhere does the Bible say that one is justified by faith ONLY.<

I've posted many scriptures already. AS I've said before, posting scripture for some people is vain because they've already been programmed by their sect to read it a certain way.

>We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), but the words "ONLY" and "ALONE" are not in the text, neither are they implied. <

Adding the word alone and only are redundant. It'd be like saying, "Water freezes at 32 degrees only."

>They are NOT there because God never intended that one be saved ONLY by their FAITH.<

"We are saved by grace, through faith."

>This is a damnable doctrine of many religious bodies today and will cause the loss of many souls in eternity. <

This is what brought Christianity out of the darkness of Rome. Most in Rome side with you.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 01, 2004.


So Kevin, one goes to hell for believing their works don't save them? One goes to hell for believing their works come out of love rather than obligation?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), July 01, 2004.

David, anyone who sees works as merely an obligation is entirely missing the point. Yes, they are required just as faith is required, but for Christians, there is nothing we'd rather do than submit to God. When we sin, it severs our relationship with God and causes us pain, and that must be restored again through repentance. Anyone who knows the joy of submitting to God knows that it's precisely because of our love for Him -- we love Him so much that we don't want sin to cut off our relationship with Him. This is my main way of saying no to temptation -- why would I want to separate myself from God?

God requires works because He loves us so much. To do otherwise would be a shallow method of dealing with people. It's not real love to allow them to sin without punishment. God cannot be in communion with sin, which is why repentance and God's grace are necessary.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 01, 2004.


Emily...,

To me--the ultimate sin of rejecting God is the one sin we need to confess and repent of. It is the reason we make all those other bad choices we call sins.

It isn't necessary to be forgiven each and every little sinb in order to be saved. We need to repent of the biggy--and then., once we are delivered from that sin., it is much easier to obey and not sin., but we will never be perfect enough and no amount of good works will aid in our salvation.

Salvation comes first--before we can ever do a good work in God's eyes.....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 01, 2004.


Max wrote, "Yes, one's faith justifies even before the works come to fruition. Abraham was justified when he believed God's promise, even as they were conversing, before he did anything. GEN 15."

Actually, this doctrine CANNOT be found in the Bible. Faith does NOT justify UNTIL it acts. Abraham was NOT said to have believed God UNTIL his faith motivated him to OBEY God's commandment.

I wrote, "Your quibble about James speaking of brothers is nothing more than speculation on your part for God says in Romans 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." therefore Jesus IS our brother. (See also Hebrews 2:10-11 and 17-18)."

To which Max replied, "Jesus is our Brother, but the epistle is from James, not Jesus. You forget the writer totally in your interpretation. Yes, James has authority as an Apostle, but you can't seriously think that when James said, "I'll show you my faith by my works" he wasn't speaking as James."

Actually, the epistle IS from Jesus. Did God write the Bible??? James did NOT make up his own words when he wrote this book, the wording came DIRECTLY from God. When James said, "I'll show you my faith by my works" came DIRECTLY from God, NOT from James.

Max wrote, "But, it is not the works that gain justification. It's faith appropriating the work of Christ on the cross."

God wrote, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Max wrote, "If you add to the work of Christ's sacrifice, you insult it as not sufficient to cover all sins."

What work am I adding to Christ's sacrifice???

I wrote, "Nowhere does the Bible say that one is justified by faith ONLY."

To which Max replied, "I've posted many scriptures already. AS I've said before, posting scripture for some people is vain because they've already been programmed by their sect to read it a certain way."

And NOT one of them show that one is justified by faith ALONE or by faith ONLY. The problem with the faith ALONE crowd is they do NOT accept what the Bible PLAINLY reveals about faith. This faith ALONE salvation is a recent invention of man.

I wrote, "We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1), but the words "ONLY" and "ALONE" are not in the text, neither are they implied."

To which Max replied, "Adding the word alone and only are redundant. It'd be like saying, "Water freezes at 32 degrees only."

Actually, they are not redundant. Don't you realize that the ONLY time the words faith and ALONE are in the Bible DEFEAT the very doctrine that you promote??? I don't find it surprising that you try to dismiss what God wrote in James chapter 2, for the father of faith ALONE Luther did the same thing, he called it a straw epistle.

I wrote, "They are NOT there because God never intended that one be saved ONLY by their FAITH."

To which Max replied, "We are saved by grace, through faith."

To which I agree however please notice that we are saved THROUGH faith, NOT through faith ALONE.

I wrote, "This is a damnable doctrine of many religious bodies today and will cause the loss of many souls in eternity."

To which Max replied, "This is what brought Christianity out of the darkness of Rome. Most in Rome side with you."

Actually, those who promote faith ALONE went to the other extreme. There is NO such thing as a Catholic-Christian, NOR is there any such thing as a Baptist-Christian, Pentecostal-Christian or any other denominational Christian. These people CLAIM that they KNOW God, however they do NOT do what He says.

David wrote, "So Kevin, one goes to hell for believing their works don't save them? One goes to hell for believing their works come out of love rather than obligation?"

If God COMMANDS you to do something, is it an OBLIGATION, or is it OPTIONAL???

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 02, 2004.


>Actually, this doctrine CANNOT be found in the Bible. Faith does NOT justify UNTIL it acts. Abraham was NOT said to have believed God UNTIL his faith motivated him to OBEY God's commandment. <

The reason you don't think it's in the Bible is because you don't read Genesis 15. Abraham believed God's promise. When? After he obeyed a command 2 chapters later? No, he believed when he heard God give the promise. When did God account him righteous? 2 chapters later? No. When Abraham believed... regardless of what your interpretation of James' epistle is. You misinterpret what James writes.

>Actually, the epistle IS from Jesus.<

Actually, no, the epistle is from James. Jesus was in heaven.

>Did God write the Bible??? <

God did not write the Bible word for word. What did God say when Jesus was baptized?

>James did NOT make up his own words when he wrote this book, the wording came DIRECTLY from God. <

James was not writing as a conduit of God. The recipients of the letter definitely read it as coming from James, not dictated directly from God's lips.

>When James said, "I'll show you my faith by my works" came DIRECTLY from God, NOT from James. <

You're seriously saying James was not referring to himself here?

>What work am I adding to Christ's sacrifice??? <

Whatever you do that tries to win God's favor apart from what God did through Christ on the cross.

" This faith ALONE salvation is a recent invention of man. <

Faith Alone is a recent invention of Man? Better read your church fathers... and the Bible.

>for the father of faith ALONE Luther did the same thing, he called it a straw epistle. <

In the hands of simplet men, it is a book easily misintepreted.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 02, 2004.


I wrote, "Actually, this doctrine CANNOT be found in the Bible. Faith does NOT justify UNTIL it acts. Abraham was NOT said to have believed God UNTIL his faith motivated him to OBEY God's commandment."

To which Max replied, "The reason you don't think it's in the Bible is because you don't read Genesis 15. Abraham believed God's promise. When? After he obeyed a command 2 chapters later? No, he believed when he heard God give the promise. When did God account him righteous? 2 chapters later? No. When Abraham believed... regardless of what your interpretation of James' epistle is. You misinterpret what James writes."

Actually, the scripture was NOT fulfilled which means that what God wrote concerning Abraham did NOT come to pass UNTIL Abraham did what God commanded, regardless of your interpretation. You can continue to CLAIM that Abraham believed before he did anything, however God did NOT account his faith to righteousness UNTIL he acted on his faith.

I wrote, "Actually, the epistle IS from Jesus."

To which Max replied, "Actually, no, the epistle is from James. Jesus was in heaven."

Actually this epistle IS from Jesus for He said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and BRING TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE ALL THINGS THAT I SAID TO YOU."

I wrote, "Did God write the Bible???"

To which Max replied, "God did not write the Bible word for word. What did God say when Jesus was baptized?"

Actually God DID write the Bible "word for word". Did men put their OWN thoughts into what is written in the Bible??? No, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, men WROTE what God commanded them to write. What God said when Jesus was baptized is irrelevant. Do you understand what "God-breathed" means???

I wrote, "James did NOT make up his own words when he wrote this book, the wording came DIRECTLY from God."

TO which Max replied, "James was not writing as a conduit of God. The recipients of the letter definitely read it as coming from James, not dictated directly from God's lips."

Go back and study what "God-breathed" means for it is obvious that you do NOT understand.

I wrote, "When James said, "I'll show you my faith by my works" came DIRECTLY from God, NOT from James."

To which Max replied, "You're seriously saying James was not referring to himself here?"

I am saying that this came from God first. It is God who says that "faith WITHOUT works is DEAD".

I wrote, "What work am I adding to Christ's sacrifice???"

To which Max replied, "Whatever you do that tries to win God's favor apart from what God did through Christ on the cross."

You didn't answer the question, I will ask it again, "what work and I adding to Christ's sacrifice???"

I wrote, "This faith ALONE salvation is a recent invention of man."

To which Max replied, "Better read your church fathers... and the Bible."

Actually, the Bible CONDEMNS your faith ALONE salvation, but you REFUSE to see it.

I wrote, "for the father of faith ALONE Luther did the same thing, he called it a straw epistle."

To which Max replied, "I the hands of simplet men, it is a book easily misintepreted."

Actually, in the hands of men who do NOT know the TRUTH, it is a book that is easily misinterpreted.

The words of God are PLAIN enough for those who are searching for the truth and have honest and good hearts and are willing to do ALL that God commands one must do in order to be saved. (Luke 8:15).

This is what God says concerning salvation. In Luke 24:47, God wrote "and that REPENTANCE AND REMISSION OF SINS should be PREACHED in His name to ALL NATIONS, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM."

Scripture WAS fulfilled (it came to pass) when Peter preached his first gospel sermon in Acts 2:38 when he told the Jews who were gathered in JERUSALEM, "REPENT, and let EVERY ONE OF YOU BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Jesus said REPENTANCE and REMISSION OF SINS would be preached.

Peter preached one must REPENT and be baptized FOR the REMISSION OF SINS. Until one has repented of their sins and been baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins, they are NOT saved.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 02, 2004.


>Actually, the scripture was NOT fulfilled which means that what God wrote concerning Abraham did NOT come to pass UNTIL Abraham did what God commanded, <

You don't know what the word "fulfilled" means.

GEN 15 - God gives Abraham a promise. Abraham believes in the Lord and is accounted righteous.

GEN 17 - God commands circumcision. Abraham obeys.

GEN 22 - God commands Abraham to offer Isaac. Abraham obeys.

You're saying Abraham didn't have faith and works yet, even though he obeyed and got circumcised, even though he conversed with the Lord, even though God said Abraham was a prophet, even though Abraham continued to believe he would have a son through Sarah, even though he made Ishmael leave, even though Abraham called on the name of the Lord...

Despite all this, you can't accept that Abraham was righteous by faith and obeyed God.... UNTIL after he offered Isaac? Please....

You don't understand what the word "fulfilled" means. You're pouring your own meaning into the word in order to back your own ideas. In James' epistle "fulfilled" here simply means "to be made evident." His faith was made evident in many instances before this. Our faith is made evident by our actions. Our actions don't constitute faith, it manifests faith - shows what is already in existence.

>Actually this epistle IS from Jesus for He said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and BRING TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE ALL THINGS THAT I SAID TO YOU." <

The epistle is from James. Read the first verse... or is Jesus Christ a bondservant of Jesus Christ?

Yes, James has authority to teach the Word, but you must take into account that James speaks from his personal perspective, as a fellow brother, to his audience.

"Therefore, be patient brothers, until the coming of the Lord." If Jesus wrote this epistle in first person, why wouldn't it say, "until I come" instead of "until the coming of the Lord."

The fact is, James wrote this epistle. When he says "I" it means "I, James" not "I, Jesus" or "I, God." James speaks as a brother, an Apostle with authority to teach.

>You can continue to CLAIM that Abraham believed before he did anything <

Before he did anything? Are you serious? He got circumcised! Do you know the faith that must have involved? Are you saying that's nothing? Hmmm... God says Abram was accounted righteous 2 CHAPTERS BEFORE God even commanded him to be circumcised... and 7 CHAPTERS BEFORE he ever offered Isaac!

You're trying to pass off ideas based on a misunderstanding of one word in the epistle of James... Sorry. Doesn't work.

>What God said when Jesus was baptized is irrelevant.<

If you studied all 4 gospels to see what God said when Jesus was baptized, you may question your "word for word" idea. God's Word is in the scripture, but when Paul says something personal about the "thorn in his side" and other personal things, it's obvious that this is not necessarily God speaking verbatim, especially when Paul speaks of personal sins and persecuting Christians.

>Go back and study what "God-breathed" means for it is obvious that you do NOT understand. <

God inspired or anointed doesn't mean God's words verbatim. I'm not saying the Bible is unreliable. I'm saying, you cannot believe that God actually personally said "I'm the chief of sinners."

>You didn't answer the question, I will ask it again, "what work and I adding to Christ's sacrifice???"<

Everything you do to try and justify yourself in God's eyes is adding to the work of Christ and is an insult to His cross. EVERYTHING. Even the smallest thought.

>Actually, the Bible CONDEMNS your faith ALONE salvation, but you REFUSE to see it. <

Paul plainly disagrees with you. You might be able to get James to agree with you if you misinterpret his epistle. True faith justifies. Fake faith is dead.

>Actually, in the hands of men who do NOT know the TRUTH, it is a book that is easily misinterpreted. <

I agree.

>Peter preached one must REPENT and be baptized FOR the REMISSION OF SINS. Until one has repented of their sins and been baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins, they are NOT saved.<

Naturally, Baptism will not be rejected by a true believer. A believer will manifest fruits of the divine nature that resides within him whether he is Baptized in water or not.

If a person trusts in Jesus, but is not able to be baptized, this child of God will not be lost. The important thing is trusting in Jesus' work - not our own. Once you cross the narrow line between works-righteousness and Christ-righteousness, you've fallen from grace.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 02, 2004.


I wrote, "Actually, the scripture was NOT fulfilled which means that what God wrote concerning Abraham did NOT come to pass UNTIL Abraham did what God commanded,"

To which Max replied, "You don't know what the word "fulfilled" means."

According to the CORRECT definition of the word, the faith of Abraham was made COMPLETE when he obeyed God.

Max continued, "GEN 15 - God gives Abraham a promise. Abraham believes in the Lord and is accounted righteous."

When was Scripture fulfilled???

Max wrote, "GEN 17 - God commands circumcision. Abraham obeys."

Please notice that Abraham OBEYS.

Max continued, "GEN 22 - God commands Abraham to offer Isaac. Abraham obeys."

Please notice again, Abraham OBEYS.

Max wrote, "You're saying Abraham didn't have faith and works yet, even though he obeyed and got circumcised, even though he conversed with the Lord, even though God said Abraham was a prophet, even though Abraham continued to believe he would have a son through Sarah, even though he made Ishmael leave, even though Abraham called on the name of the Lord... Despite all this, you can't accept that Abraham was righteous by faith and obeyed God.... UNTIL after he offered Isaac? Please...."

Actually, I have said all along that the faith of Abraham was NOT brought to completion UNTIL he did what God told him to do. Now you turn it around and ADD circumcision, among other things into the mix and say "Despite all this?" Give me a break. When was Scripture fulfilled??? Faith is NOT brought to completion UNTIL this faith ACTS which is what I have been saying ALL along. You on the other hand state that faith ALONE without any works saves.

Max wrote, "You don't understand what the word "fulfilled" means. You're pouring your own meaning into the word in order to back your own ideas. In James' epistle "fulfilled" here simply means "to be made evident." His faith was made evident in many instances before this. Our faith is made evident by our actions. Our actions don't constitute faith, it manifests faith - shows what is already in existence."

Actually, I am NOT pouring my OWN meaning into the word in order to back my own ideas that is merely your OPINION. Yes, the faith of Abraham was made evident, in other words he did what God COMMANDED of him when he offered his son Isaac. The saying that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness was not FULFILLED or made EVIDENT UNTIL he OBEYED God. Yes, our faith is made evident by our actions, you say that one has their faith accounted to them as righteousness WITHOUT any actions, there is a difference. Our actions ARE a measure of our faith, if one does NOT have faith, they will NOT do what God commands.

I wrote, "Actually this epistle IS from Jesus for He said in John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and BRING TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE ALL THINGS THAT I SAID TO YOU."

To which Max replied, "The epistle is from James. Read the first verse... or is Jesus Christ a bondservant of Jesus Christ?"

Do you understand what God-breathed means??? Did I say that Jesus Christ was a bondservant of Jesus Christ???

Max wrote, "Yes, James has authority to teach the Word, but you must take into account that James speaks from his personal perspective, as a fellow brother, to his audience. "Therefore, be patient brothers, until the coming of the Lord." If Jesus wrote this epistle in first person, why wouldn't it say, "until I come" instead of "until the coming of the Lord."

I never said that Jesus wrote this epistle in the first person. Once again, you put words into my mouth that I never said. James was INSPIRED through the Holy Spirit to WRITE his epistle. Max wrote, "The fact is, James wrote this epistle. When he says "I" it means "I, James" not "I, Jesus" or "I, God." James speaks as a brother, an Apostle with authority to teach."

Actually, the FACT is, James THROUGH INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT wrote this epistle. If God allowed men to write their OWN words in the Bible we would have ALL kinds of CONTRADICTIONS.

I wrote, "You can continue to CLAIM that Abraham believed before he did anything"

To which Max replied, "Before he did anything? Are you serious? He got circumcised! Do you know the faith that must have involved? Are you saying that's nothing? Hmmm... God says Abram was accounted righteous 2 CHAPTERS BEFORE God even commanded him to be circumcised... and 7 CHAPTERS BEFORE he ever offered Isaac!"

We were NOT talking about circumcision, and yes faith WAS involved however without the ACTION, his faith would have been USELESS. Abraham would NOT have been circumcised if he had faith ALONE without any works.

Max wrote, "You're trying to pass off ideas based on a misunderstanding of one word in the epistle of James... Sorry. Doesn't work."

Actually, you are trying to pass of the false notion that one can have faith ALONE without any works and be counted as righteousness. If Abraham had your faith ALONE, he would NOT have been circumcised his faith would have been enough, why go through the pain. Abraham would NOT have been a prophet according to your faith ALONE doctrine for he would have said in his heart that I am ADDING works into the equation, and since God is ALL-POWERFUL, I do not need to do anything. Your faith ALONE doctrine would have caused Abraham to be LOST.

I wrote, "What God said when Jesus was baptized is irrelevant."

To which Max replied, "If you studied all 4 gospels to see what God said when Jesus was baptized, you may question your "word for word" idea. God's Word is in the scripture, but when Paul says something personal about the "thorn in his side" and other personal things, it's obvious that this is not necessarily God speaking verbatim, especially when Paul speaks of personal sins and persecuting Christians."

What you say does NOT make any sense. If the words of the Bible are NOT inspired, then please tell us which parts are inspired Max???

I wrote, "Go back and study what "God-breathed" means for it is obvious that you do NOT understand."

To which Max replied, "God inspired or anointed doesn't mean God's words verbatim. I'm not saying the Bible is unreliable. I'm saying, you cannot believe that God actually personally said "I'm the chief of sinners."

The truth is, if the words of the Bible are not inspired of God, then the Bible contains NO inspiration at all!

Are the Scriptures the verbally inspired Word of God Max???

I wrote, "You didn't answer the question, I will ask it again, "what work and I adding to Christ's sacrifice???"

To which Max replied, "Everything you do to try and justify yourself in God's eyes is adding to the work of Christ and is an insult to His cross. EVERYTHING. Even the smallest thought."

Once again Max, you did NOT answer the question. What work am I adding to justify myself or adding to the work of Christ??? Let me help you out here, is it faith??? Is it repentance??? Is it confession??? Is it baptism??? Is it remaining faithful until I did??? Please do tell Max, which WORK am I adding to justify MYSELF???

I wrote, "Actually, the Bible CONDEMNS your faith ALONE salvation, but you REFUSE to see it."

To which Max replied, "Paul plainly disagrees with you. You might be able to get James to agree with you if you misinterpret his epistle. True faith justifies. Fake faith is dead."

Actually, you said that faith ALONE justifies. This IS a faith WITHOUT works. The ONLY "misinterpreting" going on here is your faith ALONE salvation that is as DEAD as a doornail.

I wrote, "Peter preached one must REPENT and be baptized FOR the REMISSION OF SINS. Until one has repented of their sins and been baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins, they are NOT saved."

To which Max replied, "Naturally, Baptism will not be rejected by a true believer. A believer will manifest fruits of the divine nature that resides within him whether he is Baptized in water or not."

Actually, one does NOT have their sins washed away UNTIL they have been baptized in water FOR the remission of their sins.

Max wrote, "If a person trusts in Jesus, but is not able to be baptized, this child of God will not be lost."

Actually, Jesus DISAGREES with Max for He said in Mark 16:16, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved." He did NOT say he who believes IS saved and then can be baptized.

Max wrote, "The important thing is trusting in Jesus' work - not our own. Once you cross the narrow line between works-righteousness and Christ-righteousness, you've fallen from grace."

Let Max explain HOW baptism is "works-righteousness" and how one can fall from grace if they are baptized according to the commandment of God???

Max teaches another gospel, faith ALONE that is NOT found in the word of God. Obedience to the gospel IS required if one is going to go to heaven. Until one has obeyed the gospel, they are NOT saved. Faith ALONE salvation has led many sincere people down the BROAD road that leads to destruction.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 04, 2004.


Wow. Long post.

>According to the CORRECT definition of the word, the faith of Abraham was made COMPLETE when he obeyed God.<

Complete... A man is a man in himself, but a woman makes him complete. A bride is beautiful, but the dress makes her beauty complete. A steak is delicious in itself, but salt makes the taste complete. Faith is sufficient in itself, but works manifest faith.

You use the word complete as if faith is INSUFFICIENT without works. Faith is sufficient before works manifest, but there's no such thing as faith without works that naturally follow.

Your problem is that you think there is such a thing as "faith" that doesn't work. There is no such thing. You also think the works add to your justification before God. The only work that justifies you before God is Christ's, which can only be accepted by faith... which isn't reliant upon the physical elements of this world.

>Please notice that Abraham OBEYS. <

Notice also that he obeys even before he offers Isaac. Every act of obedience manifests Abraham's faith. James mentions Abraham's offering of Isaac as "completing" his faith. If I'm not mistaken, Abraham obeyed God and was circumcised even before Isaac was born! So, James was not saying Abraham's act of offering Isaac was what made his faith sufficient. Abraham's faith was sufficient long before that. It was made manifest through obedience.

God knew Abraham would obey because of his faith and God counted that sort of faith as righteousness.

>You on the other hand state that faith ALONE without any works saves. <

God justified Abraham during their conversation, before Abraham was justified. God counted Abraham's sort of faith as righteousness. If we have Abraham's faith, we are counted as righteous.

>The saying that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness was not FULFILLED or made EVIDENT UNTIL he OBEYED God.<

Right! But, the evidence of our faith is for men and angels, not God. God does not need evidence of our faith in order to know if it exists. God knows the heart.

>Yes, our faith is made evident by our actions,<

Yes.

>you say that one has their faith accounted to them as righteousness WITHOUT any actions,<

Yes, God knows the actions will follow... God doesn't need physical evidence of faith before he counts it as sufficient.

>Our actions ARE a measure of our faith, if one does NOT have faith, they will NOT do what God commands. <

Right. But, God does not need physical evidence to measure our faith. He knows whether our faith is genuine, of the sort of Abraham, or if it's non-existent... dead. Men need evidence of faith. God doesn't.

>"The epistle is from James. Read the first verse... or is Jesus Christ a bondservant of Jesus Christ?"

Do you understand what God-breathed means??? Did I say that Jesus Christ was a bondservant of Jesus Christ??? <

You said that every single word in James' epistle is from the mouth of God directly, not written through our fellow brother James perspective. This is absurd in view of the the very first verse. God is not the bondservant of Jesus Christ. James is. It's written from James' perspective and you must interpret it within that context.

>I never said that Jesus wrote this epistle in the first person. <

You implied that all the words come from God directly, that we are not hearing through James as a brother, that all the references to brother in the epistle are actually Jesus calling us brother...

>Actually, the FACT is, James THROUGH INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT wrote this epistle. If God allowed men to write their OWN words in the Bible we would have ALL kinds of CONTRADICTIONS.<

Not necessarily. You are assuming man cannot tell the truth. Some words can be God's and some can be man's commentary.

Word for word, what did God say when Jesus was baptized? If you actually look up the answer to that question, you'll understand that the Bible is passed to us through humans. It's reliable, but you must account for the human agency through which it came.

> without the ACTION, his faith would have been USELESS.<

Useless for what? God highly values the heart of faith. It is a beautiful valuable thing to Him... not because it gets things done n the world, but because it pleases Him to be in spiritual communion with His children.

Yes, without faith a person cannot obey God. But, God is not a sort of slave driver whose only interest is "getting things done." Faith itself IS useful, even before works. Such a state of heart pleases God.

>Abraham would NOT have been circumcised if he had faith ALONE without any works. <

Again, you totally misunderstand the concept of "FAITH ALONE WITHOUT WORKS" It's almost to the comical point how you overlook the concept... except that it's sad that you still can't see it.

>Actually, you are trying to pass of the false notion that one can have faith ALONE without any works and be counted as righteousness. If Abraham had your faith ALONE, he would NOT have been circumcised his faith would have been enough, why go through the pain. Abraham would NOT have been a prophet according to your faith ALONE doctrine for he would have said in his heart that I am ADDING works into the equation, and since God is ALL-POWERFUL, I do not need to do anything. Your faith ALONE doctrine would have caused Abraham to be LOST. <

And you continue to miss it....

>"What you say does NOT make any sense. If the words of the Bible are NOT inspired, then please tell us which parts are inspired Max??? <

The Bible is not 100% error free. This does not mean that it is not God's tool to confound the wise and save the lost. However, the early church didn't have the full Bible. What did they have to take their doctrine from? They relied on the Holy Spirit for direction... as it should be.

The very process of selecting books and rejecting others and putting in order the Bible we have today was done by men (Catholics) who were led by the Spirit.

How do you separate Jesus from the hay in the manger? The Bible is the manger within which the Word of God lays. Through discernment we can know the Word of God.

>"The truth is, if the words of the Bible are not inspired of God, then the Bible contains NO inspiration at all! <

I disagree. All words of the Bible were definitely destined by God to be included and they serve their purpose, but not all parts are perfect in the logical sense. There are contradictions, for example, the baptism of Christ. This does not mean the Bible cannot be relied upon to tell us to trust in Christ. It simply means we cannot make an idol out of the Bible and worship it as the perfect Word of God in place of Jesus.

>Are the Scriptures the verbally inspired Word of God Max??? <

Your question is vague, especially in view of the fact that you tend to pour your own meanings into English terms. God destined scripture as a means of bringing His Word, but it is not 100% God's Word. Jesus is God's Word. "You think you have life in the scriptures, but they are what testify of me."

>Once again Max, you did NOT answer the question. What work am I adding to justify myself or adding to the work of Christ??? Let me help you out here, is it faith??? Is it repentance??? Is it confession??? Is it baptism??? Is it remaining faithful until I did??? Please do tell Max, which WORK am I adding to justify MYSELF??? <

Everything you rely upon in place of the blood of Jesus. If the blood of Jesus alone does not justify you, if you add anything to that, you are fallen from grace.

>Actually, you said that faith ALONE justifies. This IS a faith WITHOUT works. The ONLY "misinterpreting" going on here is your faith ALONE salvation that is as DEAD as a doornail.<

*grin* You continue overlooking the FAITH ALONE concept here.

>Actually, Jesus DISAGREES with Max for He said in Mark 16:16, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved." He did NOT say he who believes IS saved and then can be baptized. <

Don't forget the end portion of that scripture (which is not found in the earliest manuscripts, but I digress on that point) it says those who do not believe will be condemned. It doesn't say those who are not baptized will be condemned... right? If you use your system of logic, the only people who will be condemned are those who do not believe... which means, a person can believe and die in the desert and enter eternal life even if they were not baptized in water.

>Let Max explain HOW baptism is "works-righteousness" and how one can fall from grace if they are baptized according to the commandment of God???<

OK. If you trust in baptism as a work of obedience more than in Jesus blood, you are adding to God's grace... and falling. If you are trusting in baptism along with Jesus blood, you are demoting the sufficiency of the blood... and falling from grace. If you think your actions turn away God's wrath more than Christ's blood, you are far from grace.

It's not the Blood + actions. It's the Blood + nothing.

The only way you can accept the merits of the Blood is through faith, not works.

Works manifest that you have faith (trust/reliance) in the Blood.

The main problem you have, like most religionists of the last 40-100 years is that you think baptism is something we do more than it is something God does.

>Max teaches another gospel, faith ALONE that is NOT found in the word of God.<

Galatians kills your argument.

>Obedience to the gospel IS required if one is going to go to heaven.<

Yes, faith is obedience of the heart. Works of the flesh profit nothing towards salvation, since it was Christ's work that satisfies the wrath of God... and Christ's work alone.

>Until one has obeyed the gospel, they are NOT saved. <

You are not obeying the gospel because you will not surrender and trust in the work of Christ alone for salvation. God commands you to surrender and trust in the work of Christ. Nothing else will take away His wrath.

>Faith ALONE salvation has led many sincere people down the BROAD road that leads to destruction. <

Faith alone is the narrow road. The natural human tendency is to want to DO SOMETHING in the flesh for salvation. That is the broad road. That is the road every religion in the world travels, including yours Kevin. You like it because it satisfies that little bit of self-righteous attitude in your flesh.

God's road is narrow. You must avoid your sinful desire to want to take a little credit for your salvation. You must surrender and trust in Jesus' work alone - not yours. That's the narrow way. Few are chosen. Few find it, even those who claim to be "faith only" Christians.

Everybody wants to pat themselves on the back just a little. Repent of that tendency and trust in the blood of Jesus to turn God's wrath away from you.

The message of the cross is foolishness to the "wise" and offensive to religious folks. Kevin, you're a very sincere devoted religious person, but you do not have the message of Christ's cross. Your hope for salvation rests in your own ability to obey God's commands in the flesh rather than in Christ's work at the cross.

I sincerely hope that the message of the cross will touch your heart someday and that you'll surrender to the PERSON of Christ, trusting in HIM ALONE for your salvation.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 07, 2004.


I wrote, "According to the CORRECT definition of the word, the faith of Abraham was made COMPLETE when he obeyed God."

To which Max replied, "Complete... A man is a man in himself, but a woman makes him complete. A bride is beautiful, but the dress makes her beauty complete. A steak is delicious in itself, but salt makes the taste complete. Faith is sufficient in itself, but works manifest faith."

God says that faith "without works" is a "dead faith", one can either believe Max who says that "Faith is sufficient in itself", or one can believe God. The choice is yours to make.

Max wrote, "You use the word complete as if faith is INSUFFICIENT without works. Faith is sufficient before works manifest, but there's no such thing as faith without works that naturally follow."

You have not provided one verse in Scripture that supports your view that "Faith is sufficient before works manifest". You say in one breath that "faith alone saves", then in the next breath you say "there is no such thing as faith without works that naturally follow" and contradict yourself. Faith if it does not have works is dead, just as God has stated in His word.

How does one get faith Max???

Max wrote, "Your problem is that you think there is such a thing as "faith" that doesn't work. There is no such thing."

Actually, there is such a thing as a "faith that doesn't work". (See Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, Mark 5:7, Luke 4:34, Acts 16:17, Acts 19:15, James 2:19 etc.) It is also possible for one to have their faith overthrown. (See 2 Tim. 2:18, Luke 8:13).

Max wrote, "You also think the works add to your justification before God. The only work that justifies you before God is Christ's, which can only be accepted by faith... which isn't reliant upon the physical elements of this world."

Who said that "the works add" to my "justification before God"??? What "works" am I "adding" to show God that I am justified Max??? God has commanded that one obey the gospel, and the only way that one can obey the gospel is to first hear the gospel, then they must believe the gospel, then repent of their sins, confess Jesus as Lord, and be buried with Him in baptism. Once one has obeyed the gospel, they must remain faithful and grow as a Christian otherwise they will be lost. Nothing that we do that God has commanded "adds" to our justification before God.

Luke 17:10 says, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'"

I wrote, "Please notice that Abraham OBEYS."

To which Max replied, "Notice also that he obeys even before he offers Isaac. Every act of obedience manifests Abraham's faith. James mentions Abraham's offering of Isaac as "completing" his faith. If I'm not mistaken, Abraham obeyed God and was circumcised even before Isaac was born! So, James was not saying Abraham's act of offering Isaac was what made his faith sufficient. Abraham's faith was sufficient long before that. It was made manifest through obedience."

Yes, every act of obedience "manifests" the faith of Abraham. Yes, Abraham obeyed God before Isaac was born, the point is the scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac on the altar, you cannot escape what Scripture has clearly revealed.

Max wrote, "God knew Abraham would obey because of his faith and God counted that sort of faith as righteousness."

Actually, God tested Abraham to "prove" his faith. Just because someone claims to believe God is not proof of their faith to Him. One must do what God says and the promises of God (eternal life etc.) are conditioned on doing what God commands (obedience).

I wrote, "You on the other hand state that faith ALONE without any works saves."

To which Max replied, "God justified Abraham during their conversation, before Abraham was justified. God counted Abraham's sort of faith as righteousness. If we have Abraham's faith, we are counted as righteous."

Scripture was "fulfilled" when Abraham "obeyed" God. If we do what God commands, then one has the faith of Abraham.

I wrote, "you say that one has their faith accounted to them as righteousness WITHOUT any actions,"

To which Max replied, "Yes, God knows the actions will follow... God doesn't need physical evidence of faith before he counts it as sufficient."

God requires one to obey Him in order to be saved. If God did not need "physical evidence of faith before He counts it as sufficient", then He would not have required us to do anything except to believe in Him.

I wrote, "Our actions ARE a measure of our faith, if one does NOT have faith, they will NOT do what God commands."

To which Max replied, "Right. But, God does not need physical evidence to measure our faith. He knows whether our faith is genuine, of the sort of Abraham, or if it's non-existent... dead. Men need evidence of faith. God doesn't."

Actually, God tests our faith to see if it is genuine. (See Matt. 7:21).

Paul had this to say about faith alone in Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

Faith does not save until it acts for Paul also said in Romans 6:17, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

The doctrine they obeyed was the gospel!!!! One cannot be saved unless they obey the gospel.

Max wrote, "You said that every single word in James' epistle is from the mouth of God directly, not written through our fellow brother James perspective. This is absurd in view of the the very first verse. God is not the bondservant of Jesus Christ. James is. It's written from James' perspective and you must interpret it within that context."

Every single word came from God, if it did not, then you deny the inspiration of the Bible. I never said that God was the bondservant of Jesus Christ, the context of what God wrote in this book clearly refutes "faith alone" salvation.

I wrote, "I never said that Jesus wrote this epistle in the first person."

To which Max replied, "You implied that all the words come from God directly, that we are not hearing through James as a brother, that all the references to brother in the epistle are actually Jesus calling us brother..."

Did every word we have in the New Testament come directly from God Max??? Obviously you still do not understand the meaning of "God-breathed". If you deny that every word in the New Testament came from God, then you cannot escape the conclusion that you are denying the inspiration of the Bible.

I wrote, "Actually, the FACT is, James THROUGH INSPIRATION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT wrote this epistle. If God allowed men to write their OWN words in the Bible we would have ALL kinds of CONTRADICTIONS."

To which Max replied, "Not necessarily. You are assuming man cannot tell the truth. Some words can be God's and some can be man's commentary."

I did not assume that "man cannot tell the truth". You have a habit Max of accusing me of saying things that I never said.

Max wrote, "Yes, without faith a person cannot obey God. But, God is not a sort of slave driver whose only interest is "getting things done." Faith itself IS useful, even before works. Such a state of heart pleases God."

God says in Isaiah 66:2, "But on this one will I look: On him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, And who trembles at My word." God commands obedience and those who do not do what He commands will be lost. (2 Thes. 1:7-9).

I wrote, "What you say does NOT make any sense. If the words of the Bible are NOT inspired, then please tell us which parts are inspired Max???"

To which Max replied, "The Bible is not 100% error free. This does not mean that it is not God's tool to confound the wise and save the lost."

Where are the errors Max???

Max wrote, "However, the early church didn't have the full Bible. What did they have to take their doctrine from? They relied on the Holy Spirit for direction... as it should be."

Yes, the early church did not have the full Bible, they had the spoken word of God through the Apostles. Now we have the written word of God and since there are no more Apostles around to hand down the gifts of the Spirit, they have ceased. The Holy Spirit today only speaks to us through the written word of God.

I wrote, "The truth is, if the words of the Bible are not inspired of God, then the Bible contains NO inspiration at all!"

To which Max replied, "I disagree. All words of the Bible were definitely destined by God to be included and they serve their purpose, but not all parts are perfect in the logical sense. There are contradictions, for example, the baptism of Christ. This does not mean the Bible cannot be relied upon to tell us to trust in Christ. It simply means we cannot make an idol out of the Bible and worship it as the perfect Word of God in place of Jesus."

You can disagree all you want Max the fact remains that all of the Bible is inspired from God, not just parts of it. There are no contradictions in the Bible, please explain how the baptism of Christ is a contradiction??? Who is making the Bible as an idol and worshipping it in place of Jesus??? How does one know Jesus except through what has been revealed in the word of God???

I wrote, "Are the Scriptures the verbally inspired Word of God Max???"

To which Max replied, "Your question is vague, especially in view of the fact that you tend to pour your own meanings into English terms. God destined scripture as a means of bringing His Word, but it is not 100% God's Word. Jesus is God's Word. "You think you have life in the scriptures, but they are what testify of me."

If the Bible is "not 100% God's Word", then how much is it His word??? One would not have known God except through His word the Bible. I wrote, "Once again Max, you did NOT answer the question. What work am I adding to justify myself or adding to the work of Christ??? Let me help you out here, is it faith??? Is it repentance??? Is it confession??? Is it baptism??? Is it remaining faithful until I did??? Please do tell Max, which WORK am I adding to justify MYSELF???"

To which Max replied, "Everything you rely upon in place of the blood of Jesus. If the blood of Jesus alone does not justify you, if you add anything to that, you are fallen from grace."

The blood of Jesus does not justify one through "faith alone". How is the blood of Christ applied to justify someone??? If it is through "faith alone", then you ought to be able to show through Scripture where this is true, if you cannot, then you need to reject this false doctrine. Yes, the blood of Christ saves however, the truth of the matter is His blood is not applied to justify someone until they have obeyed the gospel by being baptized into Jesus death. (Rom. 6:4). Until one has their sins washed away in baptism, they are not saved.

I wrote, "Actually, Jesus DISAGREES with Max for He said in Mark 16:16, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved." He did NOT say he who believes IS saved and then can be baptized."

To which Max replied, "Don't forget the end portion of that scripture (which is not found in the earliest manuscripts, but I digress on that point) it says those who do not believe will be condemned. It doesn't say those who are not baptized will be condemned... right? If you use your system of logic, the only people who will be condemned are those who do not believe... which means, a person can believe and die in the desert and enter eternal life even if they were not baptized in water."

Does Mark 16:16 say, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Yes or No?

Salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16.

Is Mark 16:16 in your Bible? It is in mine, and obviously the Greek scholars who interpreted the New Testament felt that it needed to be there. Are you now claiming to be a Greek scholar with the ability to pick and choose which verses can be added or subtracted from the Bible? I think not.

Why do you not believe what Jesus has said? Unfortunately, Jesus had this to say about those who do not believe: "He who rejects Me, and does not receive my words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

I wrote, "Let Max explain HOW baptism is "works-righteousness" and how one can fall from grace if they are baptized according to the commandment of God???"

To which Max replied, "OK. If you trust in baptism as a work of obedience more than in Jesus blood, you are adding to God's grace... and falling." Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, "If you are trusting in baptism along with Jesus blood, you are demoting the sufficiency of the blood... and falling from grace."

Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, " If you think your actions turn away God's wrath more than Christ's blood, you are far from grace."

Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, "It's not the Blood + actions. It's the Blood + nothing."

First it was faith + nothing, now it is the "blood + nothing"???

Please make up your mind, is it "faith alone" or the "blood alone" that saves???

Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, "The only way you can accept the merits of the Blood is through faith, not works."

Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, "Works manifest that you have faith (trust/reliance) in the Blood."

Scripture please!!!

Max wrote, "The main problem you have, like most religionists of the last 40-100 years is that you think baptism is something we do more than it is something God does."

When did I state that baptism is something "we do more than it is something God does"???

I wrote, "Max teaches another gospel, faith ALONE that is NOT found in the word of God."

To which Max replied, "Galatians kills your argument."

Max once again proves he does not know what he is talking about. This is the passage that Max thinks "kills my argument".

Galatians 5:4 states, "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Paul was telling those who attempted to be justified by the "law of Moses" (this is the law) that they were fallen from grace. There is nothing in the book of Galatians that condemns those who obey the commandments of God.

God says in Galatians 1:8, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

The truth of the matter is Max, you teach another gospel, "faith alone" salvation, and this teaching cannot be found in the word of God. The only place this doctrine is found is in the book of James and God plainly states that we are justified by works and not by "faith alone".

Again, God says in Galatians 1:9, "As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

One cannot be saved unless they obey the gospel of Christ.

The argument that one is saved before baptism is a lie!!!

It originates from the father of lies (the devil) who was a murderer from the beginning and in whom is no truth.

You would do well to heed the warning of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.

I wrote, "Obedience to the gospel IS required if one is going to go to heaven."

To which Max replied, "Yes, faith is obedience of the heart. Works of the flesh profit nothing towards salvation, since it was Christ's work that satisfies the wrath of God... and Christ's work alone."

If it is "Christ's work alone" that saves, then we would not have to do anything to be saved. We would not have to have faith, we would not have to repent of our sins, we would not have to confess Jesus as Lord, we would not have to be baptized, we would not have to remain faithful until we die.

I wrote, "Until one has obeyed the gospel, they are NOT saved."

To which Max replied, "You are not obeying the gospel because you will not surrender and trust in the work of Christ alone for salvation. God commands you to surrender and trust in the work of Christ. Nothing else will take away His wrath."

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. (Hebrews 5:9). Claiming that you were saved by "faith alone" is not obeying Jesus. Faith only comes by "hearing" the word of God. (Romans 10:17). Until that faith motivates one to obey the gospel by first hearing, then believing, repenting of their sins, confessing Jesus as Lord and being baptized for the remission of sins, one has NOT obeyed the gospel.

I wrote, "Faith ALONE salvation has led many sincere people down the BROAD road that leads to destruction."

To which Max replied, "Faith alone is the narrow road. The natural human tendency is to want to DO SOMETHING in the flesh for salvation. That is the broad road. That is the road every religion in the world travels, including yours Kevin. You like it because it satisfies that little bit of self-righteous attitude in your flesh."

If "faith alone is the narrow road", then you ought to be able to prove through examples in the New Testament that one is saved through "faith alone". If you cannot prove this doctrine from the examples given, then this doctrine is false and must be rejected. If one does not "do something" for salvation, they will not be saved. What did Jesus say??? (See John 14:15).

Salvation is conditioned upon our obedience to the commandments of God. A good example of this is what Paul stated in Romans 6:16, "Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

Was the church in Rome saved by "faith alone" salvation??? Paul said that these Romans did something in order to be saved for in Romans 6:17 God states, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

God says in Revelation 14:13, "'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Max wrote, "God's road is narrow. You must avoid your sinful desire to want to take a little credit for your salvation. You must surrender and trust in Jesus' work alone - not yours. That's the narrow way. Few are chosen. Few find it, even those who claim to be "faith only" Christians."

We demonstrate our love to Christ by obedience and not lip-service. In order to please our Lord, we must keep His commandments.

When one keeps His commandments, there is no credit that we can take for our own salvation.

Unfortunately, many on judgment day will be in the category of those who have called Jesus Lord, Lord because they believed in "faith alone" salvation and did not do the things that He said. (See Matthew 7:21-27).

Jesus said in John 14:21, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

If we keep the Lord's commands out of love, then God will in turn love us. It was God who first loved us that He gave us His Son.

Jesus said in John 14:23, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

It is my prayer that you will heed the warning of Matthew 18:3 and OBEY the gospel before it is too late. (See also 2 Peter 3:9).

Max wrote, "Everybody wants to pat themselves on the back just a little. Repent of that tendency and trust in the blood of Jesus to turn God's wrath away from you."

One can trust in the blood of Jesus all they want and still not be saved. Only those who do what God commands will be saved.

We are not saved by "faith alone" nor are we saved by the "blood alone".

Actually, there are many things that we are saved by: The word of God - James 1:21; The Gospel - Romans 1:16; The Blood of Christ - Hebrews 9:14; The Death of Christ - Romans 5:10; Heeding the Doctrine of God - 1 Timothy 4:16; Belief - John 3:16; Repentance - Luke 13:3; Confession - Romans 10:10; Baptism - Mark 16:16; Works - James 2:24, Titus 2:7; The Mercy of God - Titus 3:4-5; Hope - Romans 8:24; Grace - Ephesians 2:8.

Max wrote, "The message of the cross is foolishness to the "wise" and offensive to religious folks. Kevin, you're a very sincere devoted religious person, but you do not have the message of Christ's cross."

You claim that you know Christ, but you do not speak the truth. The message of the cross is the gospel of Christ, which is His death, burial and resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:1-4). You seek to persuade men to seek salvation on terms that are not set forth in the Bible and are therefore an enemy of the Bible. Titus 1:16 has this to say about those who claim to know God but do not do what He says, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work."

You claim to be a Christian, but you are deceived. God says there are two requirements to enter the kingdom of God which is the church and they are spelled out in John 3:5, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." What is the seed of the kingdom??? (See Luke 8:11).

To be born of water = the watery grave of baptism (Colossians 2:12) and to be born of the spirit = the word of God. Faith comes by what? (Hearing - Romans 10:17). We are born again through the word of God. (1 Peter 1:23).

The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel of Christ (Rom. 1:16-17; 1 Cor. 15:1-4).

There are only 2 passages that tell us how to get "In Christ" and they are in Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:26-27. One is NOT "In Christ" until they are baptized into Christ and His death where He shed His blood.

Max wrote, "Your hope for salvation rests in your own ability to obey God's commands in the flesh rather than in Christ's work at the cross."

Salvation is conditioned on obedience to the commandments of God.

God says in Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."

In Galatians 2:20, Paul says that he was "crucified with Christ."

When was he "crucified with Christ?"

The answer to this question can be found in Romans 6:6 where we are "united together in the likeness of His death."

Where did Jesus shed his blood?

In his death of course.

Heb 9:14 says, "how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

Notice how this is also said of baptism in 1 Peter 3:21, "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

We are therefore united with Jesus blood in the waters of baptism.

If Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" and he did say that. Then how can one be saved before and without being baptized as Christ commanded?

Baptism is the place where and the time when God forgives us of our sins because of the shed blood of Christ. (Acts 2:38; Col. 2:11-13)

Now when you are baptized you are actually dying to this world and being "buried with Christ" and while you are with Christ in baptism you sins are washed away or removed by the blood of Christ (Acts 22:16; Col. 2:11-13).

And then you are "raised with Christ to walk a new life".

One cannot "walk a new life" until they are first buried with Christ and raised to walk with Him.

So, one cannot be saved until he has undergone this "operation of God" (Col. 2:11-13).

Max wrote, "I sincerely hope that the message of the cross will touch your heart someday and that you'll surrender to the PERSON of Christ, trusting in HIM ALONE for your salvation."

As I stated before, the message of the cross is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is His death, burial and resurrection.

It is in baptism that one obeys the gospel and has their sins washed away.

Man can claim NO righteousness as his own.

It is God who does the work in baptism.

God saved us by the washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit. "The washing of regeneration, and renewal of the Holy Spirit" IS a reference to baptism.

This makes perfect harmony when viewed in light of other scriptures such as John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, and Romans 6:3-6

Man can by no means consider baptism a "work of righteousness."

What is righteous about being immersed in water?

Baptism, is when we "die" and are completely powerless and are at God's abundant mercy.

This is when we completely surrender to God, so much so, that it is considered our own death in God's eyes.

Baptism is a manifestation of faith.

It is not man who is at work in baptism; it is God.

Baptism is not our "work of righteousness"

On the contrary, if anything, it should be considered a work of unrighteousness.

We are baptized because we are corrupt, unrighteous and spiritually dead in sin.

This is why we are buried with Him into death as explained in Romans 6.

It is the dead that are buried, not the living.

As we have "died" and are therefore buried in baptism, God, according to His mercy, washes and renews our souls as we rise from the water.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 11, 2004.


>God says that faith "without works" is a "dead faith", one can either believe Max who says that "Faith is sufficient in itself", or one can believe God. <

Faith alone receives the benefits of the cross, not works.

>The choice is yours to make. <

Thanks for reminding everyone that they can choose. Otherwise, who knows what would happen? ;)

>You have not provided one verse in Scripture that supports your view that "Faith is sufficient before works manifest". You say in one breath that "faith alone saves", then in the next breath you say "there is no such thing as faith without works that naturally follow" and contradict yourself. Faith if it does not have works is dead, just as God has stated in His word. <

You still don't get it... after all these posts and illustrations... it's truly interesting to watch it fly right over your head, but is also a little frustrating if I didn't know God alone is the one who gives revelation.

>How does one get faith Max??? <

"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" -St. Paul

Abraham heard God's Word and had faith and was accounted righteous even as God was conversing with him... not 7 chapters later.

>Actually, there is such a thing as a "faith that doesn't work". (See Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, Mark 5:7, Luke 4:34, Acts 16:17, Acts 19:15, James 2:19 etc.) <

OK, let's not just list verses, let's look at the verses you use to back your case:

Matt. 8:29 "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

There is no reference here to a soul TRUSTING in Jesus as Savior. This verse refers to a demon recognizing the authority of Jesus.

You cannot use this as a valid verse to back your position since we are not discussing KNOWING ABOUT JESUS but are talking about TRUSTING IN JESUS.

Next verse...

Mark 1:24 "Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."

Same thing from a different writer. You cannot use this as a valid verse to back your position. Next verse...

Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. "

Another demon verse, Kevin. Demons KNOW Jesus is Lord, but they do not TRUST in His promise or His work on the cross. Because of this fact, you cannot use this verse to back your position. Next verse...

Luke 4:34 "Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, [thou] Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God."

Demon verse again. Sorry Kevin, you can't use a demon verse as an example of a person having faith but no works. Demons do not TRUST in Jesus as SAVIOR, relying on the cross for deliverance from God's wrath. Demons do not have faith in Christ as their Savior.

Obviously, demons KNOW about Jesus... why? because that's the Enemy they are fighting against along with their main boss. But, I'm sorry Kevin, you cannot claim a demon trusts (has faith) in Jesus as Savior, relying on His blood alone for atonement of sin...

Next verse...

Acts 16:1 "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

Another demon verse. Obviously demons know Who their enemy is. That doesn't mean they have faith in the enemy for salvation and deliverance from God's wrath. Get the distinction?

Next verse...

Acts 19:15 "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?"

Demon verse again. Refer to what I've already said above.

Next verse...

James 2:19 "the devils also believe, and tremble."

Demon verse... Demons obviously KNOW the enemy. They DO NOT, hoever, have faith in or trust in their enemy for salvation, relying on the blood of the cross for the atonement of their sin. This is the faith which justifies, not intellectual assent.

Next verse...

>etc.<

If by "etc" you mean all other verses referring to demons, which do not trust in Jesus as Savior, then please refer to the arguments above which totally destroy your argument.

>It is also possible for one to have their faith overthrown. (See 2 Tim. 2:18, Luke 8:13). <

All these verses prove is some come to faith, but not to a deep genuine faith... a faith which saves.

>Who said that "the works add" to my "justification before God"??? What "works" am I "adding" to show God that I am justified Max??? <

You claim one must be baptized ABSOLUTELY in order to be saved. A person who believes in Jesus in prison but has no opportunity to be baptized goes to hell according to your doctrine. A child who comes to faith in Jesus, but dies in a car crash before they get to church goes to hell... etc. You add to the holy blood of Christ when salvation becomes reliant upon a physical work of the flesh...

>God has commanded that one obey the gospel, and the only way that one can obey the gospel is to first hear the gospel, then they must believe the gospel, then repent of their sins, confess Jesus as Lord, and be buried with Him in baptism.<

Obeying the gospel is to turn from not trusting in Jesus to trusting in Jesus. Repenting is switching from UNBELIEF (no trust) to BELIEF (trust) in Christ. That's the sin one must repent of. Baptism is God formally declaring a person to be a member of His Family.

>Nothing that we do that God has commanded "adds" to our justification before God.<

If you think your works justify you, whether they are commanded of God or not, you have the wrong gospel. Works do not justify. Only the blood of Jesus justifies, and the only way to attain the blood of Christ is by faith, which is a gift of God.

>the point is the scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac on the altar, you cannot escape what Scripture has clearly revealed. <

You must interpret scripture in light of scripture. Also, you claim that scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac. This simply means that the faith of Abraham was not proven until he offered Isaac. After this, we could rightly say Abraham had true faith. Before this event, we would wonder, but not God. God knew Abrahams faith. It was not a test to see if Abraham could handle it. It was a test God used to foreshadow the Gospel of Jesus and prove that Abraham had genuine faith... the sort of faith by which he was justified 7 chapters prior when he and God were conversing.

>Actually, God tested Abraham to "prove" his faith. Just because someone claims to believe God is not proof of their faith to Him.<

I agree, but God needs no proof of the state of the heart. Man needs proof, though.

>Scripture was "fulfilled" when Abraham "obeyed" God. If we do what God commands, then one has the faith of Abraham. <

You pour your own meaning into the word "fulfilled" and assume it means that Abraham's faith did not exist until he acted. This is not logical, since Abraham believed 7 chapters prior and God accounted his faith as righteous even before he offered Isaac.

>If God did not need "physical evidence of faith before He counts it as sufficient", then He would not have required us to do anything except to believe in Him.<

Your philosophy is "shot through" with major fallacies.

1. Your theology assumes God needs physical proof of the unseen.

2. Your theology assumes the only reason for obedience is salvation.

3. Your theology assumes Jesus' work on the cross was not enough.

All these assumptions are the major tenets of religions which comprise the broad path which leads to hell.

God does not need physical evidence of the unseen. God does not command obedience for salvation only. God forgives because of the blood of Christ alone.

>God tests our faith to see if it is genuine.<

Again, you are assuming God cannot know genuine faith from fake faith beforehand. Your theology is severely... WRONG.

>Faith does not save until it acts for Paul also said in Romans 6:17, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." <

"you obeyed from the heart"

Obedience is not physical actions only. Possessing faith is obedience from the heart. Your assumption that "flesh actions" are the only form of obedience neglects the fact that the attitude of the heart is the core of man's actions. If one believes in the heart, that is, adopts a new attitude of faith, he has obeyed God.

>Did every word we have in the New Testament come directly from God Max??? <

No. Man wrote it. God inspired the men, but He did not make the Bible flawless.

>If you deny that every word in the New Testament came from God, then you cannot escape the conclusion that you are denying the inspiration of the Bible.<

No, I'm denying your idea of what "inspiration of the Bible" means.

>I did not assume that "man cannot tell the truth". You have a habit Max of accusing me of saying things that I never said. <

If man can tell the truth without God being there to oversee it, then your argument falls. If the only way for a book to be true is if God is there to supernaturally oversee it, then you are denying that man can write a book that is true without God's inspiration. Refer to your argument. You didn't say it, but you must logically assume it in order to hold to your position.

I "put words in your mouth" in this manner because you hold to certain ideas without thinking of what those ideas entail. If would think things through (no offense) you'd also have to logically accept these contradictory facts... which brings down your argument.

This is why I "put words in your mouth" as you say. Because they are the extension of your own logic.

>Where are the errors Max??? <

Study each version of the gospel where Jesus is baptized. Write down exactly what God says after Jesus comes out of the water. Compare all gospels. Try to logically explain your finding without grasping for straws or making up explanations that lack honesty.

>Yes, the early church did not have the full Bible, they had the spoken word of God through the Apostles. <

My point is made. The Church relies on the Apostles and the Spirit of God for direction.

>Now we have the written word of God and since there are no more Apostles around to hand down the gifts of the Spirit, they have ceased. <

First, the churches needed the direction of the Spirit beyond the period of the Apostles. You must realize that some churches had to deal with issues when there were no Apostles around. What could they rely upon?

Second, there is no verse in scripture that specifically says that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Any attempt to prove this is a grasping at straws and a twisting of the Word to say what it doesn't say.

Thirdly, the scriptures do not speak to every situation the church must encounter. There are situations that the church must face that the scriptures do not specifically comment upon. In these situations, Christians must seek the direction of the Spirit in order to be led into Truth.

>The Holy Spirit today only speaks to us through the written word of God. <

God speaks to us through the Spirit if we are His children. The scriptures confirm what the Spirit says. A child can hear the gospel in child language without hearing actual scripture verses being recited word for word and this child can still come to faith in Jesus. Yes, our rule is the written word because it came first, but the Holy Spirit certainly speaks through his prophets in this age, revealing the hearts of sinners and manifesting Christ, not only by word, but in true power... freeing men from demons, delivering from sickness, etc.

"These signs shall follow them that believe..."

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever."

>There are no contradictions in the Bible, please explain how the baptism of Christ is a contradiction???<

In each gospel book, study the exact words God uses when Jesus comes out of the water. Who is God speaking to? What does He say? Be sure to post your findings here and explain it honestly.

>If the Bible is "not 100% God's Word", then how much is it His word??? <

I don't know. I just know that God does not contradict himself and that some issues must be worked out by logic and the Spirit of God.

>The blood of Jesus does not justify one through "faith alone".<

You don't understand the phrase "faith alone" so there's no point in bouncing logic off your brain... But, to make the record clear, genuine faith is the only thing God considers as He surveys whether to count one as righteous or not. If it's not faith trusting in the blood of Christ, then it's Christ's blood plus something else which justifies.

>How is the blood of Christ applied to justify someone???<

Faith.

>If it is through "faith alone", then you ought to be able to show through Scripture where this is true,<

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood"

You CANNOT honestly say that Paul should have written "alone" after faith. That would be redundant. The verse here is clear about how propitiation is acquired. If it was by faith AND baptism AND keeping all the commands of Jesus AND etc., it would be written there... but instead it says FAITH is how propitiation is acquired. It doesn't say faith is the first rung to propitiation. It doesn't say faith is one step to propitiation. It says what? That faith in His Blood is what brings the propitiation.

>if you cannot, then you need to reject this false doctrine.<

There are many other verses that are clear on this. They don't specifically say "faith alone" because that would be redundent, just like scripture never uses the word Trinity, but the dctrine is obviously true.

>Yes, the blood of Christ saves however, the truth of the matter is His blood is not applied to justify someone until they have obeyed the gospel by being baptized into Jesus death. <

According to your view, one must do something in order to be justified... that is, baptism. According to the view of scripture, Abraham to Paul, Faith is what juistifies - makes one righteous, because it holds to Christ.

Baptism is not a "mere" Symbol as religionists these days like to say, rather it's a powerful SYMBOL FROM GOD which conveys His Word. It doesn't earn you forgiveness, as if your work puts God in debt to you so that He's then obligated to save you.

Most think of Baptism as US doing something for GOD. The correct way to look at it 180 degrees reverse: GOD is doing something for US in Baptism.

Baptism conveys God's Word of forgiveness, openly declaring that you are forgiven. Baptism is the formal declaration of forgiveness.

Baptism doesn't make you acceptable to God. God ALLOWS YOU to be Baptized because you are already acceptable to be brought into communion with His physical Church Community.

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" Acts 10:47

"what doth hinder me to be baptized?" Acts 8:36

>Until one has their sins washed away in baptism, they are not saved.<

You're assuming these sins are not forgiven until they are "washed away."

Think of "washing away sins" as like you washing mud off of a stray dog you've decided to keep. He can't necessarily lay on your bed until his fur is washed, but you've already accepted him and decided to keep him, despite the mud. In the same way with us, God sees beyond our sins, forgives them, accepts us, and then "washes" those sins away by saying he forgives us forever.

>Salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16. <

Damnation is preceded by unbelief only, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16.

>Is Mark 16:16 in your Bible? It is in mine, and obviously the Greek scholars who interpreted the New Testament felt that it needed to be there.<

Some leave it and put a note saying that the most reliable manuscripts do not have this section. It has been, however, held by tradition to be part of the original, so it's included, because of tradition.

>Are you now claiming to be a Greek scholar with the ability to pick and choose which verses can be added or subtracted from the Bible?<

FYI, it's not really about knowing Greek or not. It's about the dates and reliabilities of manuscripts. If an older manuscript does not have the section, isn't it logical to consider that perhaps that section was not in the original? Otherwise, why does it not appear in the oldest copies?

>Max once again proves he does not know what he is talking about. This is the passage that Max thinks "kills my argument". <

Galations kills your theology because it exalts the sufficiency of the cross ALONE to save a man from sin. It's offensive to a religious mind, no doubt about it. It make religious minds angry because religionists like to point to their own obedience as the badge which sets them apart from those who go to hell. Those who understand the cross understand it's the cross alone which sets us apart.

>The argument that one is saved before baptism is a lie!!!<

Then Jesus, that great Preacher of the Gospel, is a liar according to your logic, since He promised the thief paradise.

>If it is "Christ's work alone" that saves, then we would not have to do anything to be saved. We would not have to have faith, we would not have to repent of our sins, we would not have to confess Jesus as Lord, we would not have to be baptized, we would not have to remain faithful until we die.<

You don't get it. You confuse Law and Gospel.

>Baptism is a manifestation of faith.

It is not man who is at work in baptism; it is God.<

I agree. However, if you view Baptism as God at work more than man, then we are submitting to it in order to attain the state of forgiveness.

I agree God openly confirms a person as forgiven through Baptism, but I do not agree that Baptism earns forgiveness.

>Baptism is the place where and the time when God forgives us of our sins because of the shed blood of Christ.<

A person who is Baptized and is trusting in the ritual itself and not in the Word of forgiveness receives nothing. Therefore, the only way to receive the Word of forgiveness is by faith.

You said many things at the end of your post that are very good and very true.

The place I think you err, however, is that you hold Baptism as something that CHANGES God's opinion about a person, rather than being something that is an EXPRESSION of God's new opinion about a person.

Baptism is an EXPRESSION of God's forgiveness toward those who already believe in His Promise.

Baptism doesn't change God's view of us, but it definitely changes our own view of ourselves, cleansing our consciences, allowing us to enter into a new life, and washing away our sins. Why? Because through it God is saying, "Sinner, you are forgiven."

And God forgives in Baptism, not because you are immersed in water, but because you have faith in Christ.

Kevin, I agree with you that Baptism is no "mere Symbol" as so many modern evangelists preach in this day. I agree that Baptism saves us, but not in the same sense that you do.

Baptism doesn't CAUSE forgiveness in God's heart.

Baptism CONVEYS forgiveness from God's heart.

A person who truly believes will rush to Baptism to receive God's absolution, that he may know he is forgiven, not because Baptism causes forgiveness, but because that is the time and place where God openly declares, by a living Word, that the person is forgiven. This Word is a personal Promise to the individual. It says, "Because of what Jesus did, you are forgiven."

No sinner who truly trusts in Jesus can long neglect the comfort of receiving God's personal Word of Forgiveness though Baptism and deprive himself of such a benefit. However, a person who truly trusts in Christ but is ignorant of Baptism in the Name of Jesus does not lose the benefits of God's favor through faith.

So, I agree on many things, but I do not agree that Baptism changes God's view of a person. It certainly changes the person's view of himself, though. Not because by it he views himself as having jumped a hoop of obedience which makes God less wrathful or because by it he earns credit or favor with God, but because through it God has attached His Word/Promise of forgiveness.

It's like getting stamped "APPROVED" after undergoing an examination. The actual approval happens before the stamp hits the paper, but you don't have physical evidence until it is formally CONVEYED.

Baptism is the way God conveys the Promise formally, openly, personally, and physically.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 13, 2004.


Max wrote, "Faith alone receives the benefits of the cross, not works"

Scripture please that states "faith alone" receives the benefits of the cross.

I wrote, "You have not provided one verse in Scripture that supports your view that "Faith is sufficient before works manifest". You say in one breath that "faith alone saves", then in the next breath you say "there is no such thing as faith without works that naturally follow" and contradict yourself. Faith if it does not have works is dead, just as God has stated in His word."

To which Max replied, "You still don't get it... after all these posts and illustrations... it's truly interesting to watch it fly right over your head, but is also a little frustrating if I didn't know God alone is the one who gives revelation."

Max still does not prove scriptures that support his "faith alone" view. This doesn't surprise me because there is not a verse that states that one is saved by "faith alone".

I wrote, "How does one get faith Max???"

To which Max replied, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" -St. Paul"

This is correct.

Max wrote, "Abraham heard God's Word and had faith and was accounted righteous even as God was conversing with him... not 7 chapters later."

Sorry, the scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham did what God commanded.

I wrote, "Actually, there is such a thing as a "faith that doesn't work". (See Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, Mark 5:7, Luke 4:34, Acts 16:17, Acts 19:15, James 2:19 etc.)"

To which Max replied, "OK, let's not just list verses, let's look at the verses you use to back your case: Matt. 8:29 "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" There is no reference here to a soul TRUSTING in Jesus as Savior. This verse refers to a demon recognizing the authority of Jesus."

Do the demons believe in Jesus??? Yes or No??? I didn't ask if they "trusted" Jesus as Savior. Do you these demons do what Jesus says, i.e. obey His commandments??? No, they do not however, they still believe in Jesus.

Max wrote, "You cannot use this as a valid verse to back your position since we are not discussing KNOWING ABOUT JESUS but are talking about TRUSTING IN JESUS."

Could these demons "trust in Jesus" enough to do what He commands in order to be saved??? We don't have the answer to that question do we Max but we do know these demons believe in Jesus and they know that he will punish them when He returns.

Max wrote, "Next verse...Mark 1:24 "Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." Same thing from a different writer. You cannot use this as a valid verse to back your position."

These demons had the opportunity to obey Jesus once, and choose life however, they chose to follow Satan instead of God. Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.

Max wrote, "Next verse...Mark 5:7 "And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Another demon verse, Kevin. Demons KNOW Jesus is Lord, but they do not TRUST in His promise or His work on the cross. Because of this fact, you cannot use this verse to back your position."

Again, these demons had their chance before and chose the wrong path therefore they are lost. They know that Jesus is the Savior however it is too late for them to do anything to be saved. Since they "know" that Jesus is the Savior, they believe in Him and this proves that it takes more than belief for one to be saved.

Max wrote, "Next verse...Luke 4:34 "Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, [thou] Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God." Demon verse again. Sorry Kevin, you can't use a demon verse as an example of a person having faith but no works. Demons do not TRUST in Jesus as SAVIOR, relying on the cross for deliverance from God's wrath. Demons do not have faith in Christ as their Savior."

Same answer as before, I can use this verse because it proves that one can believe in Jesus and not be saved.

Max wrote, "Obviously, demons KNOW about Jesus... why? because that's the Enemy they are fighting against along with their main boss. But, I'm sorry Kevin, you cannot claim a demon trusts (has faith) in Jesus as Savior, relying on His blood alone for atonement of sin..."

See my replies above.

Max wrote, "Next verse...Acts 16:1 "The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." Another demon verse. Obviously demons know Who their enemy is. That doesn't mean they have faith in the enemy for salvation and deliverance from God's wrath. Get the distinction?"

They know they cannot escape the wrath of God however they still believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Once again this proves that one can believe in God and still not have enough faith to do what He commands in order to be saved.

Max wrote, "Next verse...Acts 19:15 "And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" Demon verse again. Refer to what I've already said above."

See also my replies above.

Max wrote, "Next verse...James 2:19 "the devils also believe, and tremble." Demon verse... Demons obviously KNOW the enemy. They DO NOT, hoever, have faith in or trust in their enemy for salvation, relying on the blood of the cross for the atonement of their sin. This is the faith which justifies, not intellectual assent."

Why do the devils tremble Max??? Don't you think that if they had the opportunity to be saved that they would jump at the chance??? Especially if they know that when Jesus returned they will be punished???

Max wrote, "Next verse...If by "etc" you mean all other verses referring to demons, which do not trust in Jesus as Savior, then please refer to the arguments above which totally destroy your argument."

Max claims that his arguments above "totally destroy" my argument however he really does not know what he is talking about.

I wrote, "It is also possible for one to have their faith overthrown. (See 2 Tim. 2:18, Luke 8:13)."

To which Max replied, "All these verses prove is some come to faith, but not to a deep genuine faith... a faith which saves."

These people had faith in Jesus and were saved. How can one have their faith overthrown if they never had it to begin with??? Calvinists are always inconsistent on this point.

I wrote, "Who said that "the works add" to my "justification before God"??? What "works" am I "adding" to show God that I am justified Max???"

To which Max replied, "You claim one must be baptized ABSOLUTELY in order to be saved."

I didn't make this a requirement, Jesus is the one who stated in Mark 16:16, "he who believes and is baptized will be saved". He didn't say what Max wants this verse to say "he who believes is saved and then can be baptized".

Max wrote, "A person who believes in Jesus in prison but has no opportunity to be baptized goes to hell according to your doctrine."

Again, this isn't my doctrine, it is what Jesus has commanded. I am sure that one can make an opportunity to be baptized if they are in prison if they sincerely seek to obey the gospel of Christ. This is nothing more than another hypothetical argument people throw out for those who do not want to do what God commands one must do in order to be saved.

Max wrote, "A child who comes to faith in Jesus, but dies in a car crash before they get to church goes to hell... etc."

Did Kevin make the requirement that one must be baptized or did God??? If baptism is a requirement for salvation (and it is), then one must be baptized in order to be saved. This is another hypothetical argument that people throw out because they don't want to obey God's word.

Max wrote, "You add to the holy blood of Christ when salvation becomes reliant upon a physical work of the flesh..."

Is faith a "physical work of the flesh" Max??? Of course it is, so your faith only salvation plan is also guilty of adding to the holy blood of Christ. If not why not??? Is repentance a "physical work of the flesh"??? Is confession a "physical work of the flesh"??? If they are, then no one can be saved because according to your doctrine they are adding to the holy blood of Christ when one does these things in order to be saved. The fact of the matter is all of these things, faith, repentance, confession, and baptism are all works of the flesh and all are things that one must do in order to be saved.

I wrote, "God has commanded that one obey the gospel, and the only way that one can obey the gospel is to first hear the gospel, then they must believe the gospel, then repent of their sins, confess Jesus as Lord, and be buried with Him in baptism."

To which Max replied, "Obeying the gospel is to turn from not trusting in Jesus to trusting in Jesus."

Please explain how one obeys the gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus by turning from "not trusting in Jesus to trusting in Jesus"??? Please provide scripture references in your reply to back up your claim.

Max wrote, "Repenting is switching from UNBELIEF (no trust) to BELIEF (trust) in Christ. That's the sin one must repent of."

Max really does not even know what repentance is as his post above clearly indicates. Please provide your scripture references Max that prove that repentance is a switch from "unbelief (no trust) to belief (trust in Christ)". Please also explain in your reply why the Philippian jailor washed the stripes of Paul and Silas???

Max wrote, "Baptism is God formally declaring a person to be a member of His Family."

Scripture please!!!

I wrote, "Nothing that we do that God has commanded "adds" to our justification before God."

To which Max replied, "If you think your works justify you, whether they are commanded of God or not, you have the wrong gospel. Works do not justify. Only the blood of Jesus justifies, and the only way to attain the blood of Christ is by faith, which is a gift of God."

Again, Max proves that he does not know what he is talking about. Max does not understand that these are not my works, these are the works that God has commanded that one must do in order to be saved. God plainly reveals that works do justify as James 2:21, 24 clearly state. You can either believe God or Max, the choice is yours to make.

I wrote, "the point is the scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac on the altar, you cannot escape what Scripture has clearly revealed."

To which Max replied, "You must interpret scripture in light of scripture. Also, you claim that scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham offered Isaac. This simply means that the faith of Abraham was not proven until he offered Isaac. After this, we could rightly say Abraham had true faith. Before this event, we would wonder, but not God. God knew Abrahams faith. It was not a test to see if Abraham could handle it. It was a test God used to foreshadow the Gospel of Jesus and prove that Abraham had genuine faith... the sort of faith by which he was justified 7 chapters prior when he and God were conversing."

Actually, Max doesn't interpret scripture in light of scripture, he ignores scripture when it disagrees with his faith alone theology. Scripture plainly states that what God spoke concerning the faith of Abraham was not fulfilled until Abraham obeyed His commandments. God tested Abraham to make sure that he would do exactly what He commanded regardless of the circumstances.

I wrote, "Actually, God tested Abraham to "prove" his faith. Just because someone claims to believe God is not proof of their faith to Him."

To which Max replied, "I agree, but God needs no proof of the state of the heart. Man needs proof, though."

Man does not need proof of our faith, this is merely your opinion Max. If God did not need proof of our faith, He would not have commanded us to repent of our sins. He would not have commanded us to confess Jesus as Lord. He would not have commanded us to be baptized to wash away our sins. He would not have commanded us to put to death the deeds of the body. He would not have commanded us to show the fruit of the Spirit in our lives etc...

I wrote, "Scripture was "fulfilled" when Abraham "obeyed" God. If we do what God commands, then one has the faith of Abraham."

To which Max replied, "You pour your own meaning into the word "fulfilled" and assume it means that Abraham's faith did not exist until he acted. This is not logical, since Abraham believed 7 chapters prior and God accounted his faith as righteous even before he offered Isaac."

Again, whether Abraham did what God commanded 7 chapters prior had no bearing on the statement God made concerning his faith being accounted to him for righteousness. Staying within the context of what God actually said, He did not state anything concerning what Abraham had done previously now did He Max??? Scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham did what God commanded, it is that simple.

I wrote, "If God did not need "physical evidence of faith before He counts it as sufficient", then He would not have required us to do anything except to believe in Him."

To which Max replied, "Your philosophy is "shot through" with major fallacies. 1. Your theology assumes God needs physical proof of the unseen."

If God did not need "physical proof of the unseen", He would not have told us that we need to do something in order to be saved. The bible would be as long as John 3:16.

Max wrote, "2. Your theology assumes the only reason for obedience is salvation."

Actually it isn't my theology, it is what God has written in His word for He said in Hebrews 5:9 concerning Jesus, "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,"

Max wrote, "3. Your theology assumes Jesus' work on the cross was not enough."

Your theology assumes that one does not have to do anything except claim Jesus work on the cross in order to be saved. This is the perfect do nothing salvation and those who travel this broad road are on the path that leads to destruction.

Max wrote, "All these assumptions are the major tenets of religions which comprise the broad path which leads to hell."

Actually, the path that Max advocates is the easy road (which is the broad road) that leads to destruction. "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matt 7:14).

Max wrote, "God does not need physical evidence of the unseen. God does not command obedience for salvation only. God forgives because of the blood of Christ alone."

If this is the case, then God would not even require one to have faith in order to be saved. If Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (and He is), then those who do not obey Him will be lost. God does not forgive because of the blood of Christ alone. Please provide your scripture references Max that prove that the blood of Christ is applied to someone's soul the moment they believe. This is a doctrine that is not taught in scripture and I challenge you to provide the verse(s) that show this to be true. If you cannot provide this verse, then you should reject your doctrine as false.

I wrote, "God tests our faith to see if it is genuine."

To which Max replied, "Again, you are assuming God cannot know genuine faith from fake faith beforehand. Your theology is severely... WRONG."

Actually, I did nothing of the sort. God knows those who are His because they do what He commands. Those who claim faith and don't do what He says are liars and the truth is not in them. Your theology is no better than the demons who believe in Jesus and are not saved.

I wrote, "Faith does not save until it acts for Paul also said in Romans 6:17, "But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered."

To which Max replied, "you obeyed from the heart" Obedience is not physical actions only. Possessing faith is obedience from the heart. Your assumption that "flesh actions" are the only form of obedience neglects the fact that the attitude of the heart is the core of man's actions. If one believes in the heart, that is, adopts a new attitude of faith, he has obeyed God."

The truth of the matter is that faith without physical action is not faith at all. They "obeyed from the heart" means that they did what God commanded in His word what one must do in order to be saved, i.e. they obeyed the gospel of Christ.

I wrote, "Did every word we have in the New Testament come directly from God Max???"

To which Max replied, "No. Man wrote it. God inspired the men, but He did not make the Bible flawless."

Okay, if the Bible is not flawless, then where are the flaws Max???

I wrote, "If you deny that every word in the New Testament came from God, then you cannot escape the conclusion that you are denying the inspiration of the Bible."

To which Max replied, "No, I'm denying your idea of what "inspiration of the Bible" means."

Actually, you are denying the inspiration of the Bible whether you choose to accept this fact or not.

I wrote, "I did not assume that "man cannot tell the truth". You have a habit Max of accusing me of saying things that I never said."

To which Max replied, "If man can tell the truth without God being there to oversee it, then your argument falls. If the only way for a book to be true is if God is there to supernaturally oversee it, then you are denying that man can write a book that is true without God's inspiration. Refer to your argument. You didn't say it, but you must logically assume it in order to hold to your position."

Think about it Max, how can a book that had so many different writers from so many different times with men of so many different backgrounds have no contradictions??? Man could not produce something like the Bible with so many different writes from so many different ages and all of different backgrounds with no contradictions. This is not possible. I never said that man could not write a book that is not true without God's inspiration.

I wrote, "Where are the errors Max???"

To which Max replied, "Study each version of the gospel where Jesus is baptized. Write down exactly what God says after Jesus comes out of the water. Compare all gospels. Try to logically explain your finding without grasping for straws or making up explanations that lack honesty."

I read through what God said and don't see what you call as contradictions in what is written.

Matt 3:17, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Luke 3:22, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Where is the contradiction Max???

I wrote, "Now we have the written word of God and since there are no more Apostles around to hand down the gifts of the Spirit, they have ceased."

To which Max replied, "there is no verse in scripture that specifically says that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Any attempt to prove this is a grasping at straws and a twisting of the Word to say what it doesn't say."

It doesn't take twisting of scripture to prove that spiritual gifts have ceased. Please read 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. The gifts of the Spirit have ceased since we now have "that which is perfect", which is the New Testament.

The "that which is perfect" cannot be Jesus, because 1 Corinthians 13:13 states, "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. ". If the passage "that which is perfect" is speaking of Jesus return, and now abide faith, hope and love, how can this be speaking of Jesus coming since Romans 8:24 states, "...hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" The New Testament is the "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25).

I wrote, "If the Bible is "not 100% God's Word", then how much is it His word???"

To which Max replied, "I don't know. I just know that God does not contradict himself and that some issues must be worked out by logic and the Spirit of God."

The Bible can't be trusted as being from God if it is not 100% God's word. This is the problem with those who believe in faith only, they try to use logic to figure things out and this is what gets them in trouble.

I wrote, "The blood of Jesus does not justify one through "faith alone"."

To which Max replied, "You don't understand the phrase "faith alone" so there's no point in bouncing logic off your brain..."

Actually, I do understand what "faith alone" means. You state that faith alone saves, however what you call a "true faith" is one that does what God says. This logic makes absolutely no sense at all. Faith cannot justify by itself if it does not have works, so you assume that faith alone is what saves. Yet you really don't mean that it is "faith alone" that saves for you state that true faith will have works.

Max wrote, "But, to make the record clear, genuine faith is the only thing God considers as He surveys whether to count one as righteous or not. If it's not faith trusting in the blood of Christ, then it's Christ's blood plus something else which justifies."

Actually, God considers those who tremble at His word and do what He commands. Those who claim they have faith and they believe this faith in Christ's blood alone is what saves are deceived.

I wrote, "How is the blood of Christ applied to justify someone???"

To which Max replied, "Faith."

Scripture please!!!

I wrote, "If it is through "faith alone", then you ought to be able to show through Scripture where this is true,"

To which Max replied, "Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood" You CANNOT honestly say that Paul should have written "alone" after faith. That would be redundant. The verse here is clear about how propitiation is acquired. If it was by faith AND baptism AND keeping all the commands of Jesus AND etc., it would be written there... but instead it says FAITH is how propitiation is acquired. It doesn't say faith is the first rung to propitiation. It doesn't say faith is one step to propitiation. It says what? That faith in His Blood is what brings the propitiation."

Yes, it says by "faith", but you add the word "alone" to the equation and this adds to the word of God. If this one verse were all that was required to be saved then I would agree with you however, this verse "alone" is not all of the requirements for salvation.

I wrote, "if you cannot, then you need to reject this false doctrine."

To which Max replied, "There are many other verses that are clear on this. They don't specifically say "faith alone" because that would be redundent, just like scripture never uses the word Trinity, but the dctrine is obviously true."

You claim that salvation is through faith "alone", then you ought to be able to prove that one's faith "alone" is sufficient to justify and this you have not done.

I wrote, "Yes, the blood of Christ saves however, the truth of the matter is His blood is not applied to justify someone until they have obeyed the gospel by being baptized into Jesus death."

To which Max replied, "According to your view, one must do something in order to be justified... that is, baptism. According to the view of scripture, Abraham to Paul, Faith is what juistifies - makes one righteous, because it holds to Christ."

Did God command baptism of did Kevin command baptism Max??? Did Kevin say that baptism saves or did God say that baptism saves??? According to scripture, one does not have their sins washed away until they are baptized.

Max wrote, "Baptism is not a "mere" Symbol as religionists these days like to say, rather it's a powerful SYMBOL FROM GOD which conveys His Word. It doesn't earn you forgiveness, as if your work puts God in debt to you so that He's then obligated to save you."

Baptism is not a symbol, it is what actually washes away ones' sins. Please explain to me how one can be saved by "faith alone" in other words they are a new creation, then when they are baptized, they bury the new man and another new man is created??? This makes absolutely no sense at all. Baptism is a burial and the old man is buried, (the man of sin) and the new man (free from sin) is raised to walk a new life. Baptism does not put God in debt to save us. It is in baptism that the blood of Christ is applied to our souls to wash away sin.

Max wrote, "Most think of Baptism as US doing something for GOD. The correct way to look at it 180 degrees reverse: GOD is doing something for US in Baptism. Baptism conveys God's Word of forgiveness, openly declaring that you are forgiven. Baptism is the formal declaration of forgiveness."

If baptism is the formal declaration of forgiveness, then where are one's sins prior to baptism??? If baptism washes away sin (and it does), then one cannot have their sins cleansed until they are baptized.

Max wrote, "Baptism doesn't make you acceptable to God. God ALLOWS YOU to be Baptized because you are already acceptable to be brought into communion with His physical Church Community."

Go back and re-read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (Compare verse 11 with John 3:5).

The Corinthians had their sins washed away in baptism (verse 11).

I wrote, "Until one has their sins washed away in baptism, they are not saved."

To which Max replied, "You're assuming these sins are not forgiven until they are "washed away. Think of "washing away sins" as like you washing mud off of a stray dog you've decided to keep. He can't necessarily lay on your bed until his fur is washed, but you've already accepted him and decided to keep him, despite the mud. In the same way with us, God sees beyond our sins, forgives them, accepts us, and then "washes" those sins away by saying he forgives us forever."

No assumption here, this is what the text says.

I wrote, "Salvation is preceded by both faith and baptism, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16."

To which Max replied, "Damnation is preceded by unbelief only, according to the precise language of Mark 16:16."

If one does not have faith, they will not be baptized, there was no need to add the words "he who is not baptized is condemned."

I wrote, "Is Mark 16:16 in your Bible? It is in mine, and obviously the Greek scholars who interpreted the New Testament felt that it needed to be there."

To which Max replied, "Some leave it and put a note saying that the most reliable manuscripts do not have this section. It has been, however, held by tradition to be part of the original, so it's included, because of tradition."

This verse is included in the Bible because it is the inspired word of God as much as the rest of the Scriptures and I challenge you Max to prove conclusively that such is not the case.

I wrote, "Are you now claiming to be a Greek scholar with the ability to pick and choose which verses can be added or subtracted from the Bible?"

To which Max replied, "FYI, it's not really about knowing Greek or not. It's about the dates and reliabilities of manuscripts. If an older manuscript does not have the section, isn't it logical to consider that perhaps that section was not in the original? Otherwise, why does it not appear in the oldest copies?"

Few, if any, generally accepted and reliable translations in any language have removed this verse and this tells any thinking person that the scholarship of the world has not been sufficiently convinced that this verse is spurious that they actually have confidence that they should remove it from the text.

I wrote, "Max once again proves he does not know what he is talking about. This is the passage that Max thinks "kills my argument"."

To which Max replied, "Galations kills your theology because it exalts the sufficiency of the cross ALONE to save a man from sin. It's offensive to a religious mind, no doubt about it. It make religious minds angry because religionists like to point to their own obedience as the badge which sets them apart from those who go to hell. Those who understand the cross understand it's the cross alone which sets us apart."

Actually, the truth of the matter is the Galatians as I pointed out in my last post was written to those who attempted to be justified by the Law of Moses. God said in Galatians 5:6, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." This faith working through love is obedience to Jesus commandments for He said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

I wrote, "The argument that one is saved before baptism is a lie!!!"

To which Max replied, "Then Jesus, that great Preacher of the Gospel, is a liar according to your logic, since He promised the thief paradise."

No, Jesus is not a liar as you claim according to my logic. Did Jesus have power on earth to forgive sin??? I rest my case.

The New Testament was not in force until Jesus died.

I wrote, "If it is "Christ's work alone" that saves, then we would not have to do anything to be saved. We would not have to have faith, we would not have to repent of our sins, we would not have to confess Jesus as Lord, we would not have to be baptized, we would not have to remain faithful until we die."

To which Max replied, "You don't get it. You confuse Law and Gospel."

Okay, what is the difference between "Law and Gospel"???

I wrote, "Baptism is a manifestation of faith."

To which Max replied, "It is not man who is at work in baptism; it is God."

Baptism is the dividing line between the saved and the lost. Yes, it is God who is at work for He applies to blood of Jesus to someone's soul when they are baptized to wash away their sin.

Max wrote, "I agree. However, if you view Baptism as God at work more than man, then we are submitting to it in order to attain the state of forgiveness."

Yes, God is at work more than man, all we do is submit in humble obedience our will to the will of God.

Max wrote, "I agree God openly confirms a person as forgiven through Baptism, but I do not agree that Baptism earns forgiveness."

So how can God confirm a person as forgiven if baptism doesn't wash away sin??? This does not make any logical sense.

I wrote, "Baptism is the place where and the time when God forgives us of our sins because of the shed blood of Christ."

To which Max replied, "A person who is Baptized and is trusting in the ritual itself and not in the Word of forgiveness receives nothing. Therefore, the only way to receive the Word of forgiveness is by faith."

Max, we are baptized believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, we believe that Jesus was buried, and that He rose on the third day and when one repents of their sins, (died to sin), then they are suitable candidates for a burial. We only bury people who are dead and the old man must be buried and have their sins washed away (in baptism) so they can come up out of the water a new man free from sin.

The "blood"of Christ is what brings us "remission of sins"(Matthew 26:28).

The "blood"of Jesus is what "washed us from our sins"(Revelation 1:5).

The "blood"of the Lord is what "cleanses our conscience"from our sins to begin serving God (Hebrews 9:14).

The major question is "when" God applies the saving benefits of Christ's blood to our souls!

The Scriptures clearly answer that question and we must accept this as the only proper application of Christ's blood to the soul of a sinner to save him/her from one?s past sins in becoming a Christian.

According to Acts 2:36-38, God applies Christ's blood to us when we culminate our initial obedience in being "baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."

Faith (Acts 2:36) and repentance (2:38) must precede baptism, but it is only in baptism that the when of remission of sins by Christ's blood can be said to have occurred. Jesus blood that was shed "for remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28) brings remission when we obey Him in being baptized. This is in complete harmony with what Jesus stated in Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned."

Salvation from sin by Christ's blood follows only when faith is followed by baptism. The apostle John clearly stated that the Lord "washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5), but God told Saul of Tarsus, through Ananias, that the when of that washing would only come if he would "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). Of course, Saul, who became the apostle Paul, had believed and shown signs of repentance before being baptized (Acts 9:1-11). However he was told his sins would not be washed away until the act of baptism. Hebrews 9:14 states our consciences are cleansed by the blood of Christ, but the apostle Peter tells us when that cleansing of the conscience takes place. After reminding his readers that Noah and his family were saved by water, Peter said, "The like figure whereunto even baptism does also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:20-21).

Christ's blood cleanses our conscience, but it does so when we are baptized in order to be saved. That is when God applies the merits of Christ's shed blood to heal our souls from sin. Since Peter says, "baptism doth also now save us," one cannot have a conscience cleansed by Christ's blood ("a good conscience toward God") until after baptism.

Max, you believe the blood of Christ is what saves us, but you deny or ignore plain and repeated Bible teaching as to when it saves someone.

The healing balm of the blood of the Great Physician is applied by God to our souls when we obey Him in becoming Christians (Hebrews 5:9; Matthew 7:21-29; Luke 6:46). There is no other cure. There is no other application.

Paul said, "the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). That death is eternal separation and everlasting punishment "for them who know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 14, 2004.


>Max still does not prove scriptures that support his "faith alone" view. This doesn't surprise me because there is not a verse that states that one is saved by "faith alone". <

When scripture is posted, you dismiss it because it doesn't have the word "alone" - even though that would be redundant to add. I've posted scripture already. Posting more is throwing pearls.

>Sorry, the scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham did what God commanded. <

You don't know what "fulfilled" means. We've been over this.

>Do the demons believe in Jesus??? Yes or No??? <

No.

Do not get confused by our English language, Kevin. "Believe in" can mean KNOW and "believe in" can mean TRUST and RELY upon.

Demons do not "believe in Jesus" according to this second definition (TRUST) - Humans are justified by this second definition sort of faith, not the first, which is simple intellectual assent.

>I didn't ask if they "trusted" Jesus as Savior.<

Your error is in assuming that demons have faith in Jesus in the same sense as a Christian has faith (trust) in Jesus for salvation. These are two different things. A Christian is not saved by knowing, but by trusting.

>Do you these demons do what Jesus says, i.e. obey His commandments??? No, they do not however, they still believe in Jesus.<

Again, if you can see the distinction in the different definitions of the phrase "believe in" here it will go far to help you realize your error... that you cannot use demons as examples of persons who "believe in" Christ but are not saved. Demons believe in Christ, but they do not BELIEVE IN Christ... they do not TRUST Him.

See the difference?

>we do know these demons believe in Jesus and they know that he will punish them when He returns. <

They believe in Jesus, but they do not BELIEVE IN Jesus. From now on, "BELIEVE IN" in caps means TRUST AND RELY UPON. If you use "believe in" non-caps it simply means to have knowledge of.

>These demons had the opportunity to obey Jesus once, and choose life however, they chose to follow Satan instead of God.<

Yes, they refused to BELIEVE IN Jesus and chose to BELIEVE IN Satan's cause instead.

>Since they "know" that Jesus is the Savior, they believe in Him and this proves that it takes more than belief for one to be saved. <

You confuse the meaning of BELIEVE IN here again. To BELIEVE IN Jesus means to TRUST IN Jesus, not just know Who He is.

>They know they cannot escape the wrath of God however they still believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Once again this proves that one can believe in God and still not have enough faith to do what He commands in order to be saved.<

Demons believe in Jesus, but they do not BELIEVE IN Jesus in the faith/reliance/trust sense.

>Why do the devils tremble Max???<

Because they KNOW God has authority over them.

>Don't you think that if they had the opportunity to be saved that they would jump at the chance???<

I'd never presume on such matters.

>Max claims that his arguments above "totally destroy" my argument however he really does not know what he is talking about.<

I've shown you are confused about the English phrase BELIEVE IN. That's where most of your problems stem from. Demons surely believe in Jesus, but they do not BELIEVE IN Jesus in the justifying faith sense of the English phrase.

>Max replied, "All these verses prove is some come to faith, but not to a deep genuine faith... a faith which saves."

These people had faith in Jesus and were saved. How can one have their faith overthrown if they never had it to begin with??? <

I never said they didn't have faith to begin with. Read what I said. A person can have faith, but faith can be lost. Some are deceived and fall from grace. God's elect persevere.

>Calvinists are always inconsistent on this point.<

What does Calvin have to do with it?

>Again, this isn't my doctrine, it is what Jesus has commanded.<

Jesus also said that only those who do not believe would be damned. Same verse.

>I am sure that one can make an opportunity to be baptized if they are in prison if they sincerely seek to obey the gospel of Christ.<

You're thinking of plush American prison systems aren't you?

>This is nothing more than another hypothetical argument people throw out for those who do not want to do what God commands one must do in order to be saved.<

Here you avoid the topic by trying to say it's just a hypothetical. Well, millions have died in prison over the centuries. It's hardly a simple hypothetical. It's a huge segment of the world population over the course of history. You try to slip by it by saying it's just a way for real Christians to avoid the issue, when in fact you're the one avoiding the issue.

>This is another hypothetical argument that people throw out because they don't want to obey God's word.<

Again, you slip through by dismissing it as a simple hypothetical, when it's a real situation for many people. You avoid the question because you know your answer is not in keeping with a JUST view of God.

>Is faith a "physical work of the flesh" Max???<

No. It's an attitude of the heart.

>Of course it is, so your faith only salvation plan is also guilty of adding to the holy blood of Christ.<

No. You already assumed incorrectly on the first point, which makes your following point baseless.

>Is repentance a "physical work of the flesh"???<

No. Repentance is a change in the attitude of the heart. Stop distrusting God. Start trusting God.

>Is confession a "physical work of the flesh"???<

Confession does not justify a person from sin. Confession is when our faith is manifested by our mouth. We are saved by our confession of faith, just as we are saved by baptism, being brought into the Family of Faith, but we are not justified by confession.

>The fact of the matter is all of these things, faith, repentance, confession, and baptism are all works of the flesh and all are things that one must do in order to be saved. <

Faith isn't a work of the flesh. Neither is repentance. These have outward manifestations, but the inward reality is a spiritual one.

>Please explain how one obeys the gospel which is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus by turning from "not trusting in Jesus to trusting in Jesus"??? Please provide scripture references in your reply to back up your claim<

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." - Jesus

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" Acts 17:30

God commands men to believe the gospel. What is the gospel? The Kingdom of God is near and Jesus is the Lord and Savior that grants us free entrance into that Kingdom - if we BELIEVE IN Him.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES IN Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." - Jesus

>Max really does not even know what repentance is as his post above clearly indicates. Please provide your scripture references Max that prove that repentance is a switch from "unbelief (no trust) to belief (trust in Christ)". <

When Peter commanded the Jewish crowd to REPENT, the sin he was specifically referring to was not breaking the commands of the Law, it was that they rejected the Holy One of Israel. This is the sin that Peter was commanding them to repent of. Many of the Jews were very righteous Law abiding individuals, but they rejected their Savior. They were commanded to REPENT of this sin and be baptized.

>Please also explain in your reply why the Philippian jailor washed the stripes of Paul and Silas??? <

Because his heart was changed and purified by faith.

>Max wrote, "Baptism is God formally declaring a person to be a member of His Family."

Scripture please!!! <

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles"

When do you first accept a brother in the Faith, Kevin? What qualifies a person to call himself a member of your church family? Isn't it Baptism? Isn't it the fact that he is born by physical water into the physical family? Your brother may err, but he's still your brother based on his baptism - being born of water into the family.

Therefore, because Baptism is the formal declaration of the forgiveness of sins by God, it's not wrong to say that "Baptism is God formally declaring a person to be a member of His Family."

>Max does not understand that these are not my works, these are the works that God has commanded that one must do in order to be saved.<

If you're doing them, they are your actions/works.

>God plainly reveals that works do justify as James 2:21, 24 clearly state.<

Works prove faith. Works do not constitute faith. Faith is spiritual.

>You can either believe God or Max, the choice is yours to make.<

The audience is thankful you reminded them that they have a choice in the matter... the choice is between Max's interpretation and Kevin's interpretation of the Bible.

The Lord's sheep hear His voice.

>God tested Abraham to make sure that he would do exactly what He commanded regardless of the circumstances. <

Because God wasn't sure. He sort of thought maybe perhaps Abraham would prove to be of genuine faith, but really God was on edge there for a moment...

"Phew!" said God, "I really didn't know what this guy Abram was going to do there for a minute. I'm so thankful to him for choosing to obey me. Yay!"

Can you see how absurd your view is Kevin? No personal offense.

>God tested Abraham to make sure<

If you mean that God tested Abram in order to "make sure" or train Abraham to always obey, then I may partly agree. However, fromt he sound of your post, you're saying God was not quite sure about Abram and had to test him in order to see, sort of like a science experiment.

When you deny the omniscience of God, your whole theological system starts cracking.

>Man does not need proof of our faith, this is merely your opinion Max.<

In order to know if another person is a Christian or not, a person needs proof. I'm not sure how that's hard to accept.

>If God did not need proof of our faith, He would not have commanded us to repent of our sins.<

You're assuming repenting is to prove something to God. Isn't it possible that good works are meant to glorify God's goodness? to manifest how good God is to the world and to the angels? Your assumption that repentance is only meant to prove something to God ignores the other better reasons.

>He would not have commanded us to confess Jesus as Lord.<

You're assuming wrongly again... limiting the purpose of confession.

>He would not have commanded us to be baptized to wash away our sins.<

Assuming again.

>He would not have commanded us to put to death the deeds of the body.<

Assuming wrongly again.

>He would not have commanded us to show the fruit of the Spirit in our lives etc...<

Again, you assume wrongly. The fruit of the Spirit is meant to glorify God, not prove someone is righteous or not. The fruit of the Spirit is to show how awesome the Spirit is, not the person.

>Again, whether Abraham did what God commanded 7 chapters prior had no bearing on the statement God made concerning his faith being accounted to him for righteousness. Staying within the context of what God actually said, He did not state anything concerning what Abraham had done previously now did He Max??? Scripture was not fulfilled until Abraham did what God commanded, it is that simple. <

You misunderstand what "fulfilled" means. Your assumption is wrong.

>If God did not need "physical proof of the unseen", He would not have told us that we need to do something in order to be saved. The bible would be as long as John 3:16. <

Your assumption about God needing physical proof is wrong again. Your problem is with God's Omniscience. You don't like that aspect of God.

>Your theology assumes that one does not have to do anything except claim Jesus work on the cross in order to be saved.<

Not just claim with the mouth, but truly BELIEVE IN the heart.

>This is the perfect do nothing salvation and those who travel this broad road are on the path that leads to destruction. <

Wouldn't it be interesting if you discovered that I produced more good fruit than you? (I'm not claiming this, I'm just asking you to consider the possibility.)

The difference in our fruit would be, I do not consider my fruit to add one bit to my salvation or favor from God. It's free fruit... a free gift to God out of a grateful heart.

You think your fruit adds to your salvation, which means it's debt fruit... a payment to God to maintain/gain His favor.

Your path is the path of all the major religions of the world which think that giving to God gains his approval. This is the broad road.

My path is the path where a person gives abundantly out of gratefulness because Christ has freely bought for them the grace of the Almighty.

>God does not forgive because of the blood of Christ alone.<

And the demotion of Christ's blood and His cross continues...

>Please provide your scripture references Max that prove that the blood of Christ is applied to someone's soul the moment they believe. This is a doctrine that is not taught in scripture and I challenge you to provide the verse(s) that show this to be true. If you cannot provide this verse, then you should reject your doctrine as false.<

I've proveided many verses - many times - over and over. It's to the point of not casting pearls anymore.

>Your theology is no better than the demons who believe in Jesus and are not saved.<

I fear for you.

>The truth of the matter is that faith without physical action is not faith at all.<

Yes, faith leads to action. No, faith is not action. Faith is the attitude of the heart which moves a person to action.

The faith justifies. The works are a glorious testimony of the presence of God's Spirit.

>I read through what God said and don't see what you call as contradictions in what is written.

Matt 3:17, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Luke 3:22, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Where is the contradiction Max??? <

Kevin, did God say:

A. "This is My beloved Son" B. "You are My beloved Son"

It can't be both. If it were both, such a significant event would have surely been written down in its entirety. It must be either A or B. One of the writers has made a minor mistake, but it does not change the main idea of the passage.

>The gifts of the Spirit have ceased since we now have "that which is perfect", which is the New Testament.<

So, all of a sudden, when John wrote the final verse of Revelation, all gifts immediately ceased worldwide? Or was it when the letter was circulated? How far did it need to be circulated before the gifts ended? Or maybe it needed to be canonized by the Catholic Church first and added to the other 26 books before the gifts ended?

Seriously, that which is perfect is Christ Himself, not a collection of books, some of which have obvious minor errors.

>The "that which is perfect" cannot be Jesus, because 1 Corinthians 13:13 states, "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. ". If the passage "that which is perfect" is speaking of Jesus return, and now abide faith, hope and love, how can this be speaking of Jesus coming since Romans 8:24 states, "...hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?" <

Christ is our Hope. He will abide with us forever. When Jesus returns, we will see Him as He is. We will not see in part. We will know fully. We shall become like Him. We will not need the Bible (prophecy) or prayer or other such spiritual things anymore. We won't need encouragement from a brother, or correction, or signs or baptism, or anything else like these. Such things will pass away.

Seriously, Kevin, put yourself in Paul's place. He was not referring to some future time when 27 books would be compiled someday. He was looking for the Lord to return soon. This is what He was referring to. Don't be mislead by such a strange idea that Paul had in mind a compilation of 27 books. That's almost too silly to debate. He had in mind the glorious day of the Lord...

>The Bible can't be trusted as being from God if it is not 100% God's word.<

I trust that God's Word is contained therein.

>they try to use logic to figure things out and this is what gets them in trouble.<

And then you appeal to logic to say the following....

>Actually, I do understand what "faith alone" means. You state that faith alone saves, however what you call a "true faith" is one that does what God says. >This logic makes absolutely no sense at all.< Faith cannot justify by itself if it does not have works, so you assume that faith alone is what saves. Yet you really don't mean that it is "faith alone" that saves for you state that true faith will have works. <

Isn't interesting how first you demote logic and the next line you promote it as a way to try and disprove me? Strange....

>Faith cannot justify by itself if it does not have works<

FAITH DOES NOT EXIST WITHOUT WORKS. FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT THE WORKS.

Here's one more analogy for you. This is all you get...

Imagine a train. Imagine the engine at the front. Imagine the cars behind it.

The engine at the front is faith. The cars behind are works.

When the train moves, where does the power reside?

A. The engine B. The cars

There is no such thing as a moving train with no cars.

The engine gets the credit, not the cars.

This is the same with faith and righteousness. God credits faith, not the works.

One train may pull 10 cars and another train may pull 100 cars. Each is equal as far as being a train, but one proves to be a stronger engine.

Some people have greater measure of faith than others.

Romans 12:3 - "think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."

Some people do many things with the measure of faith they've been given. Some people do only a small number of things. Whatever the case, they all have the same faith which is credited as righteousness.

>Yes, it says by "faith", but you add the word "alone" to the equation and this adds to the word of God.<

This would be somewhat humorous, if it weren't a matter of heresy. I'm not adding. You are. I'm simply not being redundant by adding the word "alone." You're adding "baptism" and "whatever else" to the verses. I'm letting them stand as they read, without adding words of redundancy.

>You claim that salvation is through faith "alone", then you ought to be able to prove that one's faith "alone" is sufficient to justify and this you have not done. <

I have not proven it to you, but I've surely demonstrated it.

>Baptism is not a symbol<

Please... even you have said that going down into the water and coming out symbolizes the death burial and resurrection...

>Please explain to me how one can be saved by "faith alone" in other words they are a new creation, then when they are baptized, they bury the new man and another new man is created??? This makes absolutely no sense at all.<

I know how you despise logic...

>they try to use logic to figure things out and this is what gets them in trouble.<

But I'll give it a shot anyhow...

When you are spiritually born of the Spirit, by faith, the new man is born within you. When you are born of the water, the new man is born in the physical realm...

Example: When you have sexual intercourse and a fetus comes into existence, that fetus is 100% human. When that fetus comes out of the womb, it is revealed/born (brought into) the world.

When you believe in your heart, a new spiritual person comes into existence in the heart. You are born again. When you are baptized, this new person is revealed/born (brought into) the church body.

When a child is born, it is not created out of thin air. It existed before it was born in the womb. Such is the case of a child of God. A child of God is not born into the physical family until water baptism, but he certainly exists in the spiritual realm.

>Baptism is a burial and the old man is buried, (the man of sin) and the new man (free from sin) is raised to walk a new life. <

Baptism is not a one time event. We must "return" to baptism everyday.

>If baptism is the formal declaration of forgiveness, then where are one's sins prior to baptism???<

Sin is not something like dirt. It's not something physical you can scrub off. Sin is a spiritual condition. When you heart is filled with the peace of God upon believing the gospel, you know a new person has emerged. Baptism is God's personal way of telling you that your sins, past present and future, are forgiven. This word of forgiveness, this sacrament, washes away all consciousness of debts.

It's like getting a letter in the mail that says a large debt is paid in full. Until you get word of it, your mind is still bound to the debt. In conversion, we hear of our forgiveness in Christ, and begin trusting in Him for forgiveness, but His personal message that our debts are paid in full does not reach us until baptism.

Baptism doesn't pay our debt in full.

>If one does not have faith, they will not be baptized, there was no need to add the words "he who is not baptized is condemned." <

Hmmm.... sort of like there is no need to add the word "alone" eh? Because it's redundant? According to the precise wording of that verse, though, a person is only damned because he does not believe.

>This verse is included in the Bible because it is the inspired word of God as much as the rest of the Scriptures and I challenge you Max to prove conclusively that such is not the case. <

I would never claim conclusively one way or the other on a disputed verse.

>Few, if any, generally accepted and reliable translations in any language have removed this verse and this tells any thinking person that the scholarship of the world has not been sufficiently convinced that this verse is spurious that they actually have confidence that they should remove it from the text. <

That, and it's so much a part of tradition that it'd be hard to remove it anyways.

>No, Jesus is not a liar as you claim according to my logic. Did Jesus have power on earth to forgive sin??? I rest my case. <

And Jesus gave this power to His disciples. Also, you claimed a person could not be saved apart from baptism. The theif was saved. This still contradicts yours statement whether Jesus had authority to forgive sins or not. The fact is, the theif was saved without baptism. This contradicts your statement.

>The New Testament was not in force until Jesus died. <

Full force? Huh?

>Okay, what is the difference between "Law and Gospel"??? <

Law is what we do for God... that which God commands.

Gospel is what God does for us... that which God gives freely.

>So how can God confirm a person as forgiven if baptism doesn't wash away sin??? This does not make any logical sense. <

I know you love logic, so let me proceed with an analogy...

Baptism washes away sin like you would wash away the mud off a child who has fallen in a mud hole. You pull them out first and then set them down. Then you take a hose and wash the mud off.

Whether they get washed or not, they are not in the hole (sin state) anymore. You have saved them from the hole (sin state) and you proceed to wash the mud (past sins) off their body (conscience.)

Kevin, the rest of your post makes sense. In many points you are right. Yes, our consciences are cleansed by baptism because in Baptism God tells us we are forgiven.

Yes, Baptism conveys the benefits of the cross to our soul, by the Word/Promise connected to the water, but not because it's a maginificant work of obedience to be performed.

God is not impressed with a person who is baptized. He is pleased with the soul who submits to baptism, because that soul has faith.

Baptism is not the only means whereby the Word comes to us, giving us justifying faith.... a trust in Jesus which saves us.

In the end, it's faith, large or small, which God counts as righteousness. On the last day Christians will receive a reward measured according to our works of faith. Some will receive more. Some less. But every person from history will be judged by the standard of faith. Those with faith will enter the Kingdom of God.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


Extremely interesting post, gentlemen.

What happens when the engine temporarily shuts down? The cars it was pulling produce the momentum needed to keep the train going. What is Faith without Works? In the reality of Man, he can lose his faith and regain it due to circumstances in his life. Sometimes the works may not be clear, but he keeps on doing them. Then, the works bring him back to his faith. Man is stubborn.

Anyway, I have a brother-in-law who goes to the prisons and baptizes inmates who've accept Christ as their Saviour. Who here has done that?

Is a man saved if he has Faith that has lead him to do Works in order to Obey God?

Is a man saved if he has Faith that has lead him to Glorify God through his Works?

Is it possible to have Faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour without following the Doctrines instituted by Man that are believed to be given by God?

Is "Sola Fide" real?

..................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


>What happens when the engine temporarily shuts down? <

The engine runs on the power of the Holy Spirit... if a person stops feeding his faith with the Word, it will slow down to a crawl. ;)

>The cars it was pulling produce the momentum needed to keep the train going. <

The cars do not produce momentum, but certainly hold momentum that came from the power of the engine in the first place. The energy starts in the engine. The cars' movement is a manifestation of that energy.

>What is Faith without Works? <

Faith without works does not even exist. It's non-existent. Somebody can claim to have faith, but claiming is not faith.

Faith is the atttude of heart that clings to God's Promises. The attitude of the heart causes the person to do things that are in line with that attitude.

God considers our RIGHT attitude as where RIGHTeousness truly exists, not the natural outflow of actions that come from a RIGHTeous heart.

A good spring will have clean water and an unclean spring will not have clean water. A righteous heart will produce good works. An unrighteous heart cannot.

A heart that has true faith is precious in God's eyes, even before it produces its first good fruit of confession... even before it offers itself for baptism in water, even before it offers itself to others in love. God grants the gift of faith, nurtures that faith, encourages that faith, and brings that faith to its end in eternal life for those Whom He has given to His Son.

Faith is valuable to God, not because of the works, but because it's an attitude that clings to Him.

Imagine two children. One trusts what you say. The other distrusts what you say. Even before they do anything, which one already has your favor? (assume you can discern hearts.)

God has favor on those who BELIEVE IN Him, who TRUST what he says.

God's wrath rests on those who do not TRUST Him.

Those who have a right and blessed attitude toward God will have actions which are in line with that blessed attitude.

Those who have an evil distrustful attitude towards God will have actions that are in line with that distrustful attitude.

A person who trusts God will obey Him as far as he knows what God's will is. It's possible to not have access to God's full counsel or be in a state of confusion, but this does not bring God's wrath. If anything, it brings God's mercy for those who cling in faith to Him.

You must keep faith and works in proper order. If you mix them, you risk mixing Law and Gospel, which always leads to a perversion of the Gospel.

>In the reality of Man, he can lose his faith and regain it due to circumstances in his life. Sometimes the works may not be clear, but he keeps on doing them. Then, the works bring him back to his faith. Man is stubborn.<

A man's works can't bring him back to faith. His continued contact with the Word may bring him back to faith, because that's what creates or rekindles faith in his heart. But, getting faith and works mixed up will only make a man proud or puffed up.

>Anyway, I have a brother-in-law who goes to the prisons and baptizes inmates who've accept Christ as their Saviour. Who here has done that?<

I haven't. But, be careful that you do not compare your brother-in- law to others who may be doing other works that the Master has called them to do. Maybe you weren't asking that in a challenging way... or making your brother-in-law into someone more righteous than his brothers who are not called to baptize inmates.

>Is a man saved if he has Faith that has lead him to do Works in order to Obey God?<

He is justified (considered righteous) by his faith, but he cannot look at his obedience and point to that as what makes him righteous in God's eyes. It's his faith alone in Christ. When one obeys, his left hand should not know what his right hand is doing and he should not look back at the field he has plowed and pat himself on the back. The obedience pleases God because it brings Him glory - if it's done in a proper attitude of gratefulness, not done to put God in debt.

>Is a man saved if he has Faith that has lead him to Glorify God through his Works?<

He is justified (considered righteous) by his faith. His works will be rewarded with treasures in heaven, according to the measure of works he performed.

>Is it possible to have Faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour without following the Doctrines instituted by Man that are believed to be given by God?<

Of course, but if you think Baptism is instituted by man (I'm not sure if that's your intention) then you are misunderstanding that Baptism was not instituted by man.

>Is "Sola Fide" real?<

An attitude of faith will please God. Ask Him... ;)

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


"He is justified (considered righteous) by his faith. His works will be rewarded with treasures in heaven, according to the measure of works he performed. "

Of what value are treasures in Heaven when a soul has already arrived in Heaven?

Why would I wish to have more treasures than another soul in Heaven?

Or, why would Jesus require "jewels" from us because of our works?

If my brother-in-law has it in him to baptize inmates while others may not, then what of those others who may not have it in them to express their faith in obedience to God or other works? Is that a feesable issue?

Why must a person exihibit works at all?

....................

An object in motion tends to stay in motion. An object at rest tends to stay at rest.

We can bring a soul to church and make them a ritualistic member of the church. He may not have faith at all, but continue to mimmick believers. It is hoped that one day the mimmicker will see the light and become a believer. I don't see anything wrong with such a method. A train can coast down a steep hill without ever having its engine running. But, very soon the passengers will realize that the engine will inevitably have to be "turned on". Faith may work the same for some people. For some, it is very difficult to accept their own shadows. It takes some coaxing and modelling. It may take some external manuevering until their faith kicks in. The works don't save, but it sure does keep one on track when confusion creeps up. If we look at some rituals, we can see how believers practice their faith.

.........

Keeping one in God's Word is correct, but how is that done?

It isn't enough to just read Scriptures. The non-believer must experience the meanings through their life experiences. They actually need to witness God's teachings and practice/obey His teachings in order to make sense/understanding of God's Word. How is that done?

Well, there is church, other believers example, tribulations, trials, study, and so on. That sure does sound like works to me.

(door bell is ringing.....)

............

Oh, I do believe in Baptism, but I'm not so sure that I believe in Man's interpretations of Baptism. I sense that it has nothing to do with water or oil. I think it has everything to do with converting to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ, but if it means to dabble in Man's concepts of Baptism--why not?

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


rod said: Of what value are treasures in Heaven when a soul has already arrived in Heaven? ... Why would I wish to have more treasures than another soul in Heaven?

I agree, rod. As a Protestant I never quite understood or agreed with this philosophy. Heaven is about worshipping God, not who can look prettier with bigger crowns.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


Hi Emily.

Yes, that philosophy has always stopped me in my tracks. I still can't figure that one out. I've had some time to reread some Greek and Roman mythology. I get a this image in my mind of having to do something great in order to please the gods. God doesn't work like that or I hope He doesn't. I just can't bring myself to believe that Christ needs jewels or that I need to do stuff in order to earn treasures--material or spiritual--in Heaven.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


But, Max

please don't get the impression that I totally disagree or agree with your comments and beliefs. I think I know what you mean about works and how the Scriptures allude to the possibility of abusing works. The works can be abused and brought out of proportions with faith. But, it is safe to assume that both are needed, yes?

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.


Max,

I am ending our conversation on this thread.

It is obvious that you are not going to change your mind no matter what I write, and you have not provided enough evidence in my view to prove that your doctrine is correct.

-- Kevin Walker ("kevinlwalker572@cs.com"), July 15, 2004.


This thread is getting way to big. I'll close it once everyone gets there final say-so in, and then add the link at the bottom to the continuation thread.

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.


>Why would I wish to have more treasures than another soul in Heaven? <

It's not about what you wish, it's about how God rewards you for your works. You ought to do your works in gratefulness, not to "out- do" somebody else, but also be assured that EVERY GOOD DEED you do will not go unrewarded or unrecognized in heaven.

Read the words of Jesus about how some people will receive greater rewards in heaven than others etc. according to their sacrifices in this life. Not everybody attains equal glory when they enter heaven.

>Or, why would Jesus require "jewels" from us because of our works?<

I'm not sure what this means.

>what of those others who may not have it in them to express their faith in obedience to God or other works?<

Obedience isn't to express faith so much as it is to express love and gratitude to God for His amazing Grace - for redeeming us and granting us eternal life.

Those who do not have love do not have faith. When a person becomes connected to God spiritually by faith, the love of God flows through that person's life naturally. Those who have no free love (agape) are not connected to God.

>Why must a person exihibit works at all?<

It's not so much that a person MUST exhibit works, as if we are under a rod, but that we are given the freedom to give God our best, not to earn salvation, but because salvation is guaranteed to us already.

Those who live under the liberty of the Spirit understand this. I've come to realize that those without the Spirit can't understand this concept.

>The works don't save, but it sure does keep one on track when confusion creeps up. If we look at some rituals, we can see how believers practice their faith.<

I suppose what you're saying is true in some senses. It's the religion that keeps a person connected to the Church, which is good since in the Church one is more likely to hear the Word and come to faith. However, if the person still thinks his works are adding anything to his salvation or that by them he gains God's ultimate favor, he's missed the message of the cross completely.

>It isn't enough to just read Scriptures.<

God's Word comes in many forms, not just through the Bible. If you've been born again, the Living Word is alive in you and you manifest that Word daily. People can look at you and see signs following you that confirm that the glory of Christ rests upon you.

>Well, there is church, other believers example, tribulations, trials, study, and so on. That sure does sound like works to me.<

Yes, the Word is alive and active in the Church. The Word of Christ, the Promises that He gives to us and the confirmation of the Spirit are NOT our works. These are God's work. The Manifestation of Christ in the Church is not the Church's actions, but Christ living among us.

>I do believe in Baptism, but I'm not so sure that I believe in Man's interpretations of Baptism. I sense that it has nothing to do with water or oil. <

Christ and the Apostles commanded water baptism. It's not a man- made thing.

>Of what value are treasures in Heaven when a soul has already arrived in Heaven? ... Why would I wish to have more treasures than another soul in Heaven? I agree, rod. As a Protestant I never quite understood or agreed with this philosophy. Heaven is about worshipping God, not who can look prettier with bigger crowns<

Yes, we are not here to do good deeds as if we were in competition. Our rewards in heaven have nothing to do with other Christians, as if one loses rewards if another receives more rewards. Both are happy and both rejoice in God's fairness.

>I just can't bring myself to believe that Christ needs jewels or that I need to do stuff in order to earn treasures--material or spiritual--in Heaven.<

You ought to read what Jesus has to say about rewards in heaven. I assume you trust what Jesus says. As you sacrifice on this earth, living a life of love, Christ will recognize that on the day we are judged. Those who have given more will receive more. But, our giving more is not in order to receive more, it's a natural outflow of a heart of love.

"He who is forgiven much loves much." - Jesus

>The works can be abused and brought out of proportions with faith. But, it is safe to assume that both are needed, yes?<

Needed? If you are asking if works are needed in order to attain justification, that is, in order to enter into God's favor, then NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. As long as you are an enemy of God, your works are a stench in his nostrils. When you become a friend of God, when you come to trust in Him through Jesus Christ, then your works are pure and come from a heart of Liberty.

Imagine if your wife continually did good things for you in order to gain your love, but never accepted the love you already have for her. You would be frustrated with her that she does not believe that you love her, right?

Imagine if you invited friends over for dinner and after it was over, they insisted on paying you for the evening. It'd be a slap in the face. People who cannot surrender and accept a free gift from God without trying to pay Him back for it are not at peace with God. They do not understand that Eternal Life is a free gift.

We show our gratitude for the Gift, not in order to pay God back. That's not possible. We show gratitude because that's the new nature of our hearts. We can't keep the Love of God from overspilling our hearts into the lives of those around us.

Imagine you won a huge lottery. How hard would it be to conceal your happiness? It's not like you'd have to force yourself to be happy. It's not like you'd have a hard time sharing your winnings with those around you. This is the way it is with those who come under God's grace. You have been granted Eternal Life, something much greater than a lottery. The more you realize the Gift you've been given freely in Jesus Christ, the more your life will overflow with evidence of that glory.

You will rise up and let your light so shine before men that they will glorify your Father in heaven. And you do not let your light shine in order to gain heaven, or because you're afraid you may lose the free gift. It's just a natural result of being alive in Christ. His Light shines forth and causes those around you to see His glory. You don't even have to mention that you are religious or a follower of Christ. Your presence and the presence of the Spirit that follows you is sensed by those around you. You can watch as people who normally speak in filthy language stop swearing in your presence, even before you confess your faith in words.

Your conduct and your demeanor are evidence of your faith... and faith is the substance of things hoped for... and what we hope for is the Glory of Christ.

"God has chosen to make known among [you] the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." - Col 1:27

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 16, 2004.


Thanks, Max, for your answers. You have given me more information to ponder on. I'll have to connect the dots. Your belief sounds closely compatible with my beliefs, but I sense that some extentions may be missing. That's for me to discover.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 16, 2004.


You know, Folks, that it is rather impossible for a man not to feel pride, especially when he does a good deed. I find it very difficult to seperate that instant of self-gratification when I do something good for someone else. When one denies that proudful feeling, they are basically in denial. We are only human. I think that it takes a very strong person to truly not feel proud about their good deeds in front of God. Unless, we can look at that priest in the concentration camp who gave his life for another destined to be executed in the hands of their captors. The priest did it because of his faith in Christ; I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I guess what I'm really saying is that all works, whether intentional or affectual, are victim to our human nature. So, how can a man remain pure from pride or any degree of boastfulness to God or himself? And then, when a man does works deliberately with the aversion to pride or boastfulness--knowing that his nature is inescapable--he does them to glorify God and only God. The Catholic Church comes to mind. We can argue all day about the validity or vanity of the rituals/works, but the issue is not that. The issue is whether the Catholic does the work to glorify God or himself. Or, in the non-Catholic church, the rituals, which are performed there, come to the same concern. "I'm doing good because I go to church three times a week." "I give money every service." "I read the Scriptures everyday." Works take on many styles. But, are they to truly to glorify God or to enter into Heaven?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 16, 2004.


Baptism is where God personally shows us His forgiveness... the forgiveness that is ours for FREE through trusting in Jesus.

As we believe upon Jesus, we outwardly call upon Jesus.

Jesus responds to our outward call in an outward fashion...

This is called water Baptism.

Jesus says in Baptism, "Child, your sin is forgiven. Go in peace."

----------------------------------------- I'm posting this to conclude my point.

What we show God or others in Baptism is not of primary importance. What's important is what God shows us in Baptism.

Baptism is done in Christ's Name, not ours. It's Christ's act.

In Baptism, Jesus shows us that we are personally forgiven. This gives our individual conscience something to hold onto when it is troubled, to be reminded that Christ has given His Word - personally.

Baptism is for our sake more than for God's sake.

Baptism is not a "mere empty symbol" or "outward sign of an inward change" that lacks the Power of God's Living Word - as so many new sects teach today.

Baptism is not a rung on a ladder of works whereby a person walks his way, through a life of obedience, into God's favor.

Baptism is not a magic thing that automatically turns an enemy of God into a child of God.

Baptism is meant to convey God's personal forgiveness in order to "cleanse our consciences" so our minds can be free to live for him.

Baptism doesn't CAUSE forgiveness. Baptism CONVEYS forgiveness.

It conveys and confirms the FORGIVENESS that is FREELY ours through simple TRUST in the POWERFUL WORK of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), July 17, 2004.


Rod,

Your post made me think, and I know some disagree about "works," but at some intuitive level "works" seems to me to be an important part of the equation. (This also I'm sure comes from my Catholic orientation about works)

But..."works" should be done in a natural fluid, unselfconcious motion, for the "right" reasons. Not just to avoid damnation, or only to help gain salvation. (I guess having "faith" should also operate under the same rules.)

On the other hand, both the prodding fears of loss or the motivation for reward might guide a person to do the right thing time and time again until it finally becomes natural.

I also don't think its long stretch to suggest that someone short on faith, might one day come to faith more easily if works for the "right reasons" are already naturally incorporated in his approach to life. This would be as opposed to a person who only acts to self gratify, or avoid punishment...jail, fines, public disapproval etc.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), July 17, 2004.


Somehow, I think the Catholic Church already knows how our human nature must be nurtured. I learned how to ride a bike before I knew how to ride a bike kind of thing. It wasn't enough to know how; I had to actually do the riding. Yes, some will say that it isn't us needing to do the work, but have a look at the joy we get from actually riding the bike. Faith works the same way; look at what we experience when we practice our faith. Fears and worries tend to dissolve and hope takes over.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 17, 2004.


Hi Jim.

You have brought me to the one fine point about people and their faith. It is truly difficult for us mortals to determine who has real genuine faith and who does not. We can't gauge faith by their works nor can we gauge their works by their faith. We can probably make a ball park figure or assumption, but it is still a hunch. God knows. And only He knows who is saved and who is not. It is the Catholic understanding to leave Salvation in God's hands, not man's. And, in noting that, how can a Catholic ever be accused of doing works to "earn" his Salvation? But, more curiosly, how can a Protestant claim Salvation by faith alone?

It is believed that faith brings works. My question is. What if it doesn't? Logically, the person who shows no evidence of works must then not be Saved. Therefore, works are evidence of Salvation? Then, what works must be done? (Again, I have my list as I'm sure others have theirs.)

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), July 17, 2004.


I see what you mean Rod.

One of the most meaningful and comforting ideas is the understanding that Salvation is left to God. (I especially feel this way when reading human pronouncements about who is saved and who isn't.) True faith with works is "the" ideal goal.

Hypothetically speaking: Its seems that a person short on faith but long on works would be in a better position than someone who is short on both.

I know that some of us might see these two people as equaly condemned. That's why I prefer leaving it up to God. Not trying to lead people or myself to a false sense of security,--- it just seems logical that "works" in the absence of faith might eventually be a stepping stone to faith one day. If the person runs out of time before coming to 'faith,' Its up to God--- but I'd rather be that person, than the one with neither faith nor a history of behaving morally, ethically and with kindness to his fellow man.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 18, 2004.


I will be closing this thread now. It is 346 KB big! Now is the time since all major discussions are over. Here is the new thread.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CE81

-- (Christian_Moderator@@hotmail.com), July 18, 2004.