Popes ["Black" popes]greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Can you tell me the names of the three Black Popes?
-- Stephanie E. Rankins (stephanieur2@yahoo.com), March 21, 2000Answers
Hello, Stephanie.
Your question raises a bit of a dilemma. How does one determine who is "black" and who is not? How dark must one be? What features must he have to "qualify" as a member of the black race? Can we check the genes/DNA and then label a person? Is the child of a white person and a black person a black, a white, or neither? If one or the other, why? Does it depend on whether the mother was black or the father was black or neither? I am very uncomfortable with all this and would prefer that we were all "color-blind."
I have a good reason for raising these questions. According to Catholic historian, Dr. Warren Carroll, the three popes who are sometimes referred to as "black" were not actually black according to the average person's judgment. The reason for the confusion is that they were from North Africa, where there used to be large, thriving Catholic communities before they were supplanted by Islam. But, for the most part, the people of North Africa are not what people call "black Africans." They are a Semitic people who have features closer to those of so-called Caucasians, though their skin color is darker, on the average, than that of Europeans.
Here are the names of the three North African popes:
Pope St. Victor I, 189-199
Pope St. Miltiades, 311-314, resigned
Pope St. Gelasius I, 492-496.
I have been praying for some time now that a certain Nigerian cardinal (whom people would call "black") will be our next pope.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik -- March 22, 2000.About 6 years ago I heard from a TV program that the Japanese had done DNA research in order to prove that they were a superior race. The DNA study revealed that every race on earth today is descended from a common female ancestor. Does any one have further information? Year ago a black man said that he became "white" (his skin color was as dark as ever) when he became a mormon! I responded that God, as far as I know, creates all of our souls the same,not white, nor black, nor yellow, all the same regardless of the race that a person belongs to. Does the Bible say any different? Lucia
-- lucia Bruner (cimbri1@aol.com), March 23, 2000.Hi, Lucia. God bless you. Yes, God creates all souls equal, no matter what the race.I also heard about all people being traceable back to one woman (Eve), as scientifically verified. I heard this was reported in U.S. News and World Report.
Love, Chris
-- Chris B -- March 23, 2000.I think I did hear something about everyone being traced back to one woman genetically, but I always assumed it was a modern myth or legend since I didn't think anyone is yet knowledgeable enough to accomplish such a feat -- but that was just my opinion of the story.If someone was or one day will be able to trace everyone back to a point of our genetic origins, I suspect another woman's DNA has the same valid claim to the position as Eve's. Any guesses?? And who would be the male source of DNA? Careful . . . it's a trick question :-)
-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), March 23, 2000.Hi, Dave. What woman besides Eve? Hmmm. I had a great-great grandmother on my mother's side who had so many children she lost count. It could be her, I guess. Then there's the old woman who lived in the shoe. There's also Mother Nature, I suppose. Hmm. It would have to be a mom with a lot of kids, and so it's probably a Catholic. . . I don't know, I give up. I'm pretty happy with Eve. . .
-- Chris B -- March 24, 2000.Thanks for taking me up on the riddle Chris :-) Everyone always thinks of Eve but forgets that mankind started over with Noah and his family. So both Noah and his wife's genes are found in all of us. The only other genes in the post-flood pool belonged to the wives of Noah's sons, but Noah and his wife's genes are definitely in all 3 sons and therefore in all who were born since.
-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), March 24, 2000.Oh, yeeeaaaahhh. . . . Very clever.But you know what, technically speaking, you said a woman who "everyone" could be traced back to. But the prelapsarian people can't be traced back to Noah's wife. Noah's wife had DNA that was a result of all sorts of different marriages.
-- Chris B -- March 24, 2000.Ok, Ok, I'll give you that one Chris :-) But of course I was thinking of those who are alive today and who would have been the subject of the genetic study in question :-)
-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), March 25, 2000.I think you have the names of the three Black Popes.I don't agree with Gecik that the people of North Africa were not Black. There are Black and still are Black. The so called semitic are those barbarians who invaded the region and destroyed African culture.
The Whites try to deny a clear fact when there's a mention of Black people holding a post somewhere there. These three popes were Black and that's why you don't hear about them in the Roman Catholic Church.
The white associate their civilisation with Roman culture but fail to understand that the Romans didn't get any knwoledge by studying but by conquering other nations and forcing natives to into slavery to serve them. You've also read about Alexander the great. I don't see what was great about Alexander. He simple was a barbarian who went on a rampage killing and destroying everything on his way.
White will prefer to say that we all came from Apes instead of accepting the truth. Why? Because Black people have been despised and oppressed through out history.
We may try to deny the fact that we never came from Black people but whether white (albino or caucasian) or Arab/Italian/Spanish (mulatto) the colour of our skin will always betray us.
God created Adam and Eve in the beiginning.
-- Manotsha Makheyi (lbhebhe@hotmail.com), April 30, 2003.You "don't hear about" the three African Popes?? Well, granted, none of them has quite the notoriety of Gregory the Great or Leo XIII or Pius X; but all three of them are canonized saints of the Church! That hardly sounds like an attempt by the Church to sweep any of its great leaders under the rug, regardless of their ethnic background! One Church leader who probably has greater renown than any Pope, and who shared that same North African ethnic background was the great Saint Augustine, one of the most brilliant theologians in the history of Christianity.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 30, 2003.manotshna,let me point out something you are saying that you might want to rethink... whites came from blacks
if i were you, i would rather claim that people came from apes in general than claim that whites evolved from blacks, because you have inherently placed blacks lower than whites in the evolutionary spectrum.
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 30, 2003.There is a traditional belief Augustine was a ''Negrito'' in racial type. Undeniably African in color; but not what was once bluntly called negroid.This doesn't really matter, we are brothers. Many blacks in our society want it always clear that Cleopatra must have been black, and also the other pharaohs. To me, and all Catholics, this would be a dubious distinction. Is a Nubian finer than an Ethiopian? Is Lena Horne a finer woman than Leontyne Price? Or for that matter, what's so refined about any racial type?
The people with the deepest racial pride in modern history, and a cultural background as great as any race in the world, the Germans-- are guilty of supporting the most barbarous men to ever walk the earth. --Most of them drop dead handsome.
--And Saint Augustine was worth a legion of them, as intellects go.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 30, 2003.wait, the deepest racial pride and richest history is germany? are you kidding? germany is probably the only world power NEWER than the united states. need i remind you that germany was prussia, and several other small conglomerate nations competing against austria until early in the 20th century...
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 30, 2003.Is that a fact? Well, Paul-- take my word for it; our last World War (may it be the last) didn't result in victory for the super race. The super race was reduced to suicides and despair. We must all pray this never happens to a civilized nation again.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 30, 2003.i'll certainly give you that, but the arian idea was hitlers, not the peoples. if we should ever see a tyrant like that again *cough* saddam *cough* it would be good to remove him before too much harm can be done... er, wait, we already got saddam.
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnEmail.com), April 30, 2003.The peoples admired Hitler, Paul. he appealed to their racial pride. I wouldn't dare make this up. I have met German immigrants in this country who still murmur how Hitler ''did a lot of good things for the German people.''Yes; like getting an entire generation of young men killed for him, all on a mission to conquer the world. Pride goes before a fall. We can't ever forget that lesson.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 01, 2003.yes, but remember, most germans had no clue what was actually going on at the time. after the war germans who lived about a mile from auschwitz were taken for a tour of the facility, and they were as shocked as anyone else... to a normal german who had no idea what was going on in the death camps, hitler did seem to be doing good things. he did bring germany out of economic depression and expanded its borders quite significantly, not to mention the fact that germany's armys didnt even have to fight much until britain... and event then the fiercest fighting wasnt until america came into the fray and russia was able to mount a counter attack. so to the people who were ignorant of what was really happening in their country, hitler was doing good things for germany. its really a matter of propaganda and perception.
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2003.You must be out of your mind. PERCEPTION!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 01, 2003.Oh come on paul, where did those rank and file Germans think that those trainloads of Jews were bound for? I would agree that they didn't want to know. I would agree that they acted as if they didn't know. But they knew!
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.actually, i can say that a majority of germans probably believed that the trainloads (not trailor loads) of jews were headed to what were called 'work camps' not death camps, as theyve come to be called here. all sorts of things could have happened at those camps that the people might never have known about. remember... we had concentration camps in the US during WWII as well, do YOU know exactly what went on there? did YOU visit those camps. No. A majority of citizens would stay as far away from prisoner of war camps as possible. Now, there were people that knew what was going on, and those people were inherently evil, but they certainly were not the majority of the germans. Even Rommel, a high ranking general, was an honorable man fighting for his country. there is an important distinguishing factor to be made between Nazis and general germans... and you cant condemn the entire nation of germany for what the nazis did any more than you can condemn every citizen in the united states for the fact that there are pro-aborts out there. it doesnt work that way.
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2003.Paul:
Nobody condemned all the German people for the war crimes. But we do accuse them of virulent hatred of jews; and of falling under the spell of a brutal criminal. For YOU to insist this brutal criminal IN ANY WAY gets credit for advancing German civilization is ridiculous. You need only see the Nurenburgh rallies on film, and the tanks invading Poland & Belgium to realise the mad dog which was loose on the world. Don't make comparisons between ANY western democracy and the Nazi government. Their people were definitely complicit; only very few were not.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 01, 2003.Actually, your comparison to the abortion holocaust is quite valid. There are probably a few people who really don't know what is going on, just as there were in Germany. And there are a few people who know exactly what is going on, and who place their lives on the line to fight against it. But there are also a great many people who know what is going on, but would rather just look the other way and not get involved. "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth". (Revelation 3:16)
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2003.i think you need to check you facts. i have a home in germany and spend my summers there. the young are very ashamed of what hitler did and the old will admit that they didnt necessarily know what was happening in the country. videos of german tanks rolling though belgium and poland were not shown to the people, at least not anything more than edited clips with people cheering the soldiers on. propaganda machines were huge at the time... its hard for us to imagine them as larger than they are now, but that was the case. To your average german, who saw incomprehensable war debts levied after wwI, where citizens literally had to bring a wheelbarrow of money in order to purchase a loaf of bread, where poland had been taken back after it fell, and territory had been wrongfully taken from the germans by france as a buffer territory the idea of taking poland and the rhineland back only seemed naturally right... after all, it was german in the first place. what hitler did wasnt good, but a strong majority of people did not hate the jews. in fact, ALOT of people helped hide jews or get them out of the country(ies).
Now, i want you to go through an excercise with me... imagine you are a german citizen in the late 1930s. youve been in economic depression for over twenty years, in fact one of your three children has died of malnutrition and your wife miscarried because no one can afford proper health care. your country cant give you aide because it has to pay ridiculous war reparations every year and you cant leave the country because in most other countries germans are despised after WWI. now, a leader of the country comes along. very charismatic, and very good looking. he speaks well and speaks of the glory of a unified germany. invasions of poland take place, and the only coverage you hear on the radio is about polish citizens screaming support for german troops to bring them back to the country. then germany takes back the rhineland, and all of a sudden, germany is beginning to swell up to the glory that hitler is promising. work camps are established and you are told that prisoners of war and possible traitors to the german nation are being sent to these camps. nobody knows much about them, but the slogan for the camps is "work is liberty" so it seems like the general idea of a basic work camp, not a killing farm. the work plants produce alot of german goods, which are then sold to allied countries and money begins to flow back into the german economy. all of a sudden you can feed your family, you can pay rent for a house with running water that has working toilets and electricity. france doesnt fight germany, in fact the north surrenders and the south is controlled by a puppet nazi government under richi, so that looks pretty much like the french are into your ideas... are you beginning to understand now how an average german citizen might look at hitler as having been helping their country, prior to learning about what really happened at the death camps? i mean, hitler was very secretive, and snipers outside of the camps shot anyone who approached or left unless they were nazi officers. Im not saying that hitler advanced their society as all, but youre saying theyre all guilty of complacency, and they cant be held responsible for that.
-- paul (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2003.Paul, please-- You're going to make me cry.So you love to visit or live in Germany! This is not Germany of the 30's and 40's 20th century. Naturally now all is back to normal. Hey-- I love Schubert and Wagner and Brahms. Germany is a paradise and the people are hard- working.
But the history of the 2 World wars is not flattering to those people. The events which took place are too nightmarish. Children persecuted and Krystalnacht, and jackboots and bombs across the English Channel. Or do you deny this?
The Germany of that day was a totalitarian, evil place; and Hitler was mobbed by his admirers and acted like a God. He was mad; and they loved him. Sure, today they'll say We didn't know! Why? They were on their way to victory. Everybody loves a winner!
I love the culture itself; the art and the poetry and lieder. Who wouldn't?
The dead don't love it. Germany's own youth, sacrificed for nothing; they wouldn't love it.
I had a sad story told me. An old veteran of the Normandy landing related how he had been there. He said, I captured one day 120 prisoners. He went on, One day we cornered a young man in a large two story house. He fought us very fiercely, he wouldn't quit. He was in the S.S.-- and finally we killed him. I looked at him lying dead, he was BIG! He took up all the floorspace in the room, his dead body.
This good old soldier said, ''He was a beautiful, strong, blond giant. --It made me actually cry; having to kill such a man!''
Hitler sent the flower of his nation's youth to their death. A whole great, generation of men and boys. And that's not counting the best Jewish people on earth, millions!
You mean to say now, he was OK? Or those who followed him were GOOD? The hell with General Rommel. He shot himself in the mouth. He was a Nazi; they knew what they were doing!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 01, 2003.Paul (dontsendmail)It’s impossible that the German nation didn’t know what was going on. To suggest that is absolutely ridiculous. When they invaded France, Poland, what did the German Nation think they were doing?
‘Here is a TINY example of some of the things that happened in Germany at that time, Paul:
A massive, coordinated attack on Jews throughout the German Reich on the night of November 9, 1938, into the next day, has come to be known as Kristallnacht or The Night of Broken Glass.
The attack came after Herschel Grynszpan, a 17 year old Jew living in Paris, shot and killed a member of the German Embassy staff there in retaliation for the poor treatment his father and his family suffered at the hands of the Nazis in Germany. On October 27, Grynszpan's family and over 15,000 other Jews, originally from Poland, had been expelled from Germany without any warning. They were forcibly transported by train in boxcars then dumped at the Polish border.
For Adolf Hitler and Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, the shooting in Paris provided an opportunity to incite Germans to "rise in bloody vengeance against the Jews."
On November 9, mob violence broke out as the regular German police stood by and crowds of spectators watched. Nazi storm troopers along with members of the SS and Hitler Youth beat and murdered Jews, broke into and wrecked Jewish homes, and brutalized Jewish women and children. All over Germany, Austria and other Nazi controlled areas, Jewish shops and department stores had their windows smashed and contents destroyed. Synagogues were especially targeted for vandalism, including desecration of sacred Torah scrolls. Hundreds of synagogues were systematically burned while local fire departments stood by or simply prevented the fire from spreading to surrounding buildings. About 25,000 Jewish men were rounded up and later sent to concentration camps where they were often brutalized by SS guards and in some cases randomly chosen to be beaten to death.
The reaction outside Germany to Kristallnacht was shock and outrage, creating a storm of negative publicity in newspapers and among radio commentators that served to isolate Hitler's Germany from the civilized nations and weaken any pro-Nazi sentiments in those countries. Shortly after Kristallnacht, the United States recalled its ambassador permanently.
In Germany, on November 12, top Nazis, including Hermann Göring and Joseph Goebbels, held a meeting concerning the economic impact of the damage and to discuss further measures to be taken against the Jews. SS leader Reinhard Heydrich reported 7500 businesses destroyed, 267 synagogues burned (with 177 totally destroyed) and 91 Jews killed. Heydrich requested new decrees barring Jews from any contact with Germans by excluding them from public transportation, schools, even hospitals, essentially forcing them into ghettos or out of the country. Goebbels said the Jews would be made to clean out the debris from burned out synagogues which would then be turned into parking lots.
At this meeting it was decided to eliminate Jews entirely from economic life in the Reich by transferring all Jewish property and enterprises to 'Aryans,' with minor compensation given to the Jews in the form of bonds.
Regarding the economic impact of the damage from Kristallnacht and the resulting massive insurance claims, Hermann Göring stated the Jews themselves would be billed for the damage and that any insurance money due to them would be confiscated by the State.
"I shall close the meeting with these words," said Göring, "German Jewry shall, as punishment for their abominable crimes, et cetera, have to make a contribution for one billion marks. That will work. The swine won't commit another murder. Incidentally, I would like to say that I would not like to be a Jew in Germany."
Now, I’m certainly not suggesting that every German supported Hitler and the Nazi party; and certainly the Germans of today should not be held culpable. However, I think it’s true to say that a sizeable percentage did support him and that others opposed him in principle but were afraid to rebel against the regime for obvious reasons. Some Germans, as we know, hid the Jews from the Nazis, this in itself tells us that they general population must have had some idea that the Jews were in grave danger. We can all cry ‘I didn’t know’ but if something is staring us in the face, we can’t look back and deny all knowledge.
We can compare this to the evil of abortion: Everyone knows abortion is happening. Some of the general population agree with it. Some of the general population don’t agree with it, but do nothing. Some of the general population don’t agree with it and demonstrate and work towards abolishing it. Certainly the consequences of opposing the Nazis and opposing Abortion are different, but I think you will see what I’m trying to say.
God bless
-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 01, 2003.
-- The Thread Restorer (Thread@Restoration.com), December 01, 2003
Paul...I can tell that you know your history. In our high school we had several German teachers. ONe of which was a young teen during this terrible time in history.Now how do any of the threads relate to a Black Pope?
-- susan (susanlatte@aol.com), December 12, 2003.
There is no proof that we have yet to have a black Pope. There were a couple from Africa, but all indications are they were white.There is a strong possibility the next pope will not be of European descent.
In Christ, Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 12, 2003.