Speaking in Tongues

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Carrying over a discussion on Speaking in Tongues

I agree with Dr. Becker that we should keep in mind that there could be an evil nature to someone’s speaking in tongues and we must keep that in mind when assessing charismatic speaking in tongues. But we should not jump to the conclusion that all speaking in tongues comes from the devil. In the case of speaking in tongues, we are in luck, St. Paul has given us some rules.

Speaking in tongues can be a very emotional event. Since the devil cannot influence the mind directly, he influences either the emotions, or, he inspires erroneous imaginations to influence the mind, or both. His goal is to sever people from the truth, upon which both a truly human and a truly Christian life depends.

But we need to caution here. We need to be very careful when trying to discern demonic possession because by its nature it is a type of spiritual possession. Speaking in tongues is definitely a sign of some kind of spiritual possession but it is not necessarily evil. In fact, it can be a sign of a gift of the Holy Spirit.

No Christian church has more experience with the recognition of demonic possession than the Catholic Church (because we have been around the longest) and it is not surprising that Dr. Becker would quote from our experience but I would warn you and him not to dabble in this area without complete knowledge and spiritual experience. The power to exercise demons was given to the Apostles and through them to the Catholic Church not to individuals and the whole area of the evil empire is nothing to fool with. Prudence and caution are always called for when investigating the possibility of demonic possession.

The occult is a by-product of original sin. The temptation towards it is very common in all churches and must be watched out for continually. But we shouldn’t ignore graces from God that are bestowed on us because the devil may come in their disguise. That would be surrendering to the evil one.

I also think most people who ‘speak in tongues’ don’t know what they are saying and do so mimicking others around them. Over time they develop a technique and become better at the mimicking. It doesn’t really come from any spirit; instead it comes from their internal desire for a spiritual event. That is neither sinful nor demonic. But is probably of limited value.

Here are the rules St. Paul set down rules for speaking in tongues: If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two OR AT MOST three, AND EACH IN TURN, and ONE SHOULD INTERPRET. But if there is no interpreter, THE PERSON SHOULD KEEP SILENT in the church and speak to himself and to God. (1 Corinthians 14:27-28) and If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord. If anyone does not acknowledge this, he is not acknowledged. So, my brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything must be done PROPERLY AND IN ORDER.(1 Corinthians 14:37-40) As Fr. Simon Tugwell, O.P. says in his book, "Did Your Receive the Spirit?” speaking in tongues is not a new, let alone a charismatic invention. St. Paul spoke in tongues (1 Cor 14:18). Because it is essentially a gift for private prayer, there is no way of telling to what extent it subsequently disappeared from the Church. There are hints of it in the Desert Fathers (way before Martin Luther) and in the Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic. There is clear evidence that St. John Vianney prayed in tongues and that both St. Francis Xavier and St. Vincent Ferrer preached in tongues. Fr. Tugwell notes that many Catholics have long been familiar with a kind of substitution for tongues in the use of Latin. Many of those who most regret the passing of Latin are people who do not understand a word of it. This is not to deride them in any way, but to recognize the spiritual need in people at times to pray in an unknown language. You will find an article on speaking in tongues in the new Catholic Encyclopedia under "Gift of Tongues" and in the old Catholic Encyclopedia under "Glossolalia" and "Charismata". "Every one hath his proper gift [charisma] from God; one after this manner, and another after that" (I Cor., vii, 7 etc.) From the old Catholic Encyclopedia published at the turn of the last century: ‘These extraordinary gifts were foretold by the Prophet Joel (ii, 28) and promised to believers by Christ: "And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues," etc. (Mark, xvi, 17, 18). The Lord's promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost (Acts, ii, 4) at Jerusalem, and, as the Church spread, in Samaria (Acts, viii, 18), in Caesarea (x, 46), in Ephesus (xix, 6), in Rome (Rom., xii, 6), in Galatia (Gal., iii, 5), and more markedly in Corinth (I Cor., xii, 14). The abuses of the charismata, which had crept in at this latter place, induced St. Paul to discuss them at length in his First Epistle to the Corinthians. The Apostle teaches that these "spiritual things" emanate from the Spirit who quickens the body of the Church; that their functions are as diversified as the functions of the natural body; and that, though given to individuals, they are intended for the edification of the whole community (I Cor., xii).’ http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003

Answers

have to appologize for my last paragraph above. Looks like a few paragraphs got jumbled together when I cut and pasted from Word to the site.

bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Ok I agree with almost everything you said. But answer me this question: Would God support false doctrine with miracles such as speaking in toungues?

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

If I understand it correctly, the whole point of speaking in tongues is to bring people to God and into the Church. It was a beginning point, not an end point on the road to Truth. Again, see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm

Given that, it is very possible that God is granting this grace to all sorts of Christians.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


OOps sorry I just want to add one more thing. You know in that church that there are many false doctrines. Doctrines that both the Lutherans and Catholics agree are fundamental to the Christian faith such as denying the real presence in Holy Communion or that Baptism is a means of grace. And I think that we can even agree that all that there is abosutely no Biblical support what so ever for that "Rapture" stuff. I just dont think that God would support a church like this with "miracles" They could be imagined. But if they are real, they are coming from someplace and I don't think that that someplace is God.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Common moderator we are TRYING to have a discussion!

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


CAN MIRACLES EVER BE DONE IN SUPPORT OF FALSE DOCTRINE? After the first lecture in this series I was asked whether it is correct to say that God will never permit any miracle to be performed to support false doctrine. If we mean by “miracle” any supernatural event that defies explanation on the basis of purely natural causes, without reference to the power behind the “miracle,” I would doubt very much if such an axiom can be supported by Scripture. Can we say beyond question that of the magicians of Pharaoh were nothing but trickery? Or is it possible that we are here dealing with spiritistic apports? When Moses in Deuteronomy 13 spoke of signs and wonders performed by false prophets, must we assume that these miracles are pure fraud and that nothing supernatural is involved? And we might ask again, when Paul spoke of the miracles, the signs and the lying wonders of Antichrist, must we assume that these, too, are the products of pure deception and involve nothing more than the lies with which the servants of Satan deceive those whom they seek to win to their false doctrine? Such questions are also very relevant when we deal with the charismatic movement. Can we really say beyond question, as we are often tempted to say, that tongues and healings are always nothing more than autosuggestion? Can we really say beyond question that the Holy Ghost never gives men the gift of tongues or of healing today? Or can we say without question, the way we say that Jesus is our Savior, that the devil could not mimic the Pentecostal miracles of the early church? Thank God, we do not need to answer those questions. “The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever.” What this means, of course, is that the revelation of God, as we have it in the Scriptures, must be and remain the only norm by which all occult or supernatural events must be judged. Instead of saying that God would never permit a miracle to be performed by a false teacher in support of false doctrine, we ought to say that any miracle, real or imagined, that is performed in support of false doctrine is not from God. In other words, it is not a divine miracle but Satanic witchcraft. (the last protion has been removed to protect the innocent and the guilty)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

OK now PLEASE Paul! I took out the offensive part! Please leave it alone. Thanks

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

funny, jeanie, you really are ignorant.

the catholic church DOES believe in the real presence. second, the catholic church DOES NOT recognize the validity of the rapture theology.

you REALLY should grow up and learn a few real facts before you post again on this forum. your ignorance only tears away the credibility of everything you say here and makes you look like an idiot.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 06, 2003.


Uhm that is what i said. sorry if it was not clear to you

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Paul, Jeanie does know in these 2 cases what the Catholic Church believes.

Jeanie, You have a good point. I don't think God would grace gross error with miracles but he does lead us to Him in stages. Again, He wants us to come to Him not to embrace error. Your example of Egypt was a good one. Again, see my cautions about speaking in tounges in my original post.

However, I can't tell you the number of stories I have been told where God has led a person to Christianity first, into a very superficial church, then into the fullness of truth -- Catholicism.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.



In my church we believe(I don't know what the Catholic Church teaches on this) that the "spiritual gifts" were intended for the apostolic era only. It makes sense! I mean obviously, at Pentecost Jesus sent the 12 out as missionaries to spread the Gospel. The gift of toungues were definately real languages to assist them in that. Acts 2 is pretty clear about that. But we are also very careful not to say that it CANT happen. Obviously, God can do anything! But I just don't think that he would support false doctrine with miracles. According to the Bible it is possible that they could be caused through Satan. 2 Corinthians 11 says:

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

And thanks too Bill. I dont really appreciate paulh calling me "ignorant".

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Yes, Jeanie, the Lord's promise was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost (Acts, ii, 4) at Jerusalem, yet it also happened, as the Church spread, in Samaria (Acts, viii, 18), in Caesarea (x, 46), in Ephesus (xix, 6), in Rome (Rom., xii, 6), in Galatia (Gal., iii, 5), and more markedly in Corinth (I Cor., xii, 14). The abuses of the charismata, which had crept in at this latter place, induced St. Paul to discuss them at length in his First Epistle to the Corinthians. The Apostle teaches that these "spiritual things" emanate from the Spirit who quickens the body of the Church; that their functions are as diversified as the functions of the natural body; and that, though given to individuals, they are intended for the edification of the whole community (I Cor., xii).’

For a history of this phenomenon, let me quote from the Catholic encyclopedia:

"In post-Biblical times St. Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons, and Father of the Church -died about 200ad) tells us that "many" of his contemporaries were heard "speaking through the Spirit in all kinds (pantodapais) of tongues" ("Contra haer.", V, vii; Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", V, vii). St. Francis Xavier (d.1552) is said to have preached in tongues unknown to him and St. Vincent Ferrer (d.1419) while using his native tongue was understood in others. From this last phenomenon Biblical glossolaly differs in being what St. Gregory Nazianzen (d.389) points out as a marvel of speaking and not of hearing. Exegetes observe too that it was never used for preaching, although Sts. Augustine and Thomas seem to have overlooked this detail."

As you can see there is a long documented tradition within the Church, both before and during Martin Luther's time of holy people speaking in tongues.

for more info see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14776c.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03588e.htm

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


The spiritual gifts are gifts to the Church, not gifts to an era. The gift of tongues that Paul described in such detail had nothing to do with being missionaries or spreading the gospel. Even if it did, the Church still has that exact same mission today, just as it did in Apostolic times. The gift of tongues enables communication with God on a deeper level than is possible using mere human language - one's own mind and one's own vocabulary. "In the same way the Spirit also helps us in our weakness; for when we do not know how to pray as we should, the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words". (Romans 8:26) This gift is intended for personal and communal growth in prayer, not for evangelism. The needs of the Church today are the same as they were then. Counselors and pastors still need wisdom. The ill still need healing. The Christian community still needs discernment of spirits. As long as such needs endure - and they will until the end of time - the charisms of the Holy Spirit will endure as provisions for meeting those needs. I know this by personal experience. I have seen every one of the charisms described in scripture, active in today's Church and bearing holy fruit in individual lives, but especially in the Body of Christ as a whole. Criticisms and doubts expressed by persons with no personal experience of such workings of the Spirit are, as you might expect, not very impressive to those who do have such experience.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 06, 2003.

Saw this and thought you would be interested:

Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) "sang in unknown words with such facility and winsomeness that her utterances were known as 'concerts in the Spirit'."

From: George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


well I definately agree with u that AFTER the apostolic era that they can be used in private and not for preaching. A very dear friend of mine told me in confidence that in his private prayers that he speaks in tongues. I have no reason do disbelieve him or to believe it is in anyway satanic, but I think that the Bible is pretty clear that God gave them these special gifts to start their help the early church in the apostolic era in their ministry. At the great commission Jesus says to the 11:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." 19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Regarding what Bill said about the gifts of the spirit AFTER the apostlic age. let me look into that :)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.



I think that the reason that some of those "religions" get miracles like speaking in tounges are because they are either self-enduced or they are the tricks of the devil. One of the devils greatest ways of getting people to follow him is by appearing under the false pretence of good.

As Christians we must learn to distinguish between what is the work of God and what is the work of the devil. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Ignatius of Loyola say this, I am sure that there are many others.

But just because one speaks in tounges does not mean that it is false. But we must see through what is going on to see who is behind it; the person, God, or Satan.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Bill wrote: >>>I also think most people who ‘speak in tongues’ don’t know what they are saying and do so mimicking others around them. Over time they develop a technique and become better at the mimicking. It doesn’t really come from any spirit; instead it comes from their internal desire for a spiritual event. That is neither sinful nor demonic. But is probably of limited value.<<< ______

Hi Bill, I think that this is what the majority of speaking in tongues is. A psychological event or in some cases probably faked. In some pentecostal churches it is considered a sign of 'being saved' and nearly always some sort of 'gift of the spirit' is needed to be a minister or deacon in the church.

I grew up with this sort of thing and it always frightened me, not because I thought it evil but just strange and surreal.

-- Marcia Dietrich (marciadietrich@yahoo.com), December 06, 2003.


lol.... just as a humerous sidenote. I asked a charismatic once if she ever picked up a posionous snake with her bare hands. As it turned out, there was a preacher in Tennessee or someplace who made a career out of it. He eventually died of a snake bite tho.

Ok Bill, I'm going to go read up on that and get back to you.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


really, bill,

so when jeanie says that catholics deny the real presence or the necessity of baptism, and that we believe in the rapture, that she is right?

i thought you were supposedly a catholic...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 06, 2003.


paul h, read it again that is NOT what i said! I said that the Pentecostal church/Charismatic movement errs on some important doctrines that BOTH Catholics AND Lutherans agree are essential to the church namely The real presence in Holy Communion, saving grace in Holy Baptism, and that this "Rapture" stuff is just plain STUPID.

Bill, From: George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70

who is that?

Sorry I am too lazy to read all that stuff. I will just stick by my original statement. It is not impossible. :)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Jeanie asked “Bill, From: George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70 -who is that? “

It is a book for the Hildegard of Bingen fact that: Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) "sang in unknown words with such facility and winsomeness that her utterances were known as 'concerts in the Spirit'." it is from: George H. Williams and Edith Waldvogel, “A History of Speaking in Tongues and Related Gifts,” in The Charismatic Movement, ed. by Michael P. Hamilton, p. 70

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Ok thanks Bill but who are those ppl? Are they Charismatics?

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Jeanie, apparently you need a refresh of high school grammar

You know in that church that there are many false doctrines.

this sentence is ambiguous, no subject mentioned at all... and the next one:

Doctrines that both the Lutherans and Catholics agree are fundamental to the Christian faith such as denying the real presence in Holy Communion or that Baptism is a means of grace.

states that whatever said churches false doctrines are they are doctrines that both the lutherans and the catholics agree are fundamental to christian faith AND these doctrines that lutherans and catholics agree on are the lack of real presence and that baptism is not a means of grace.

directly reading it THIS is what you stated. now, did you mean that the catholic and the lutherans recognize the true presence, the necessity of baptism, and the falsity of the rapture? because if that is what you meant, you should state it that way.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 06, 2003.


this is what I know:

Edith Waldvogel is from the Univ. of Chicago & Wheaton College George H. Williams is Professor of Church History, Harvard University. Among his books are Polish Brethren, and Spiritual and Anabaptist Writers (Westminster 1995).

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


paul h: You need to graduate to your sophmore year in high school. Do your parents know what you're doing on the computer?

Bill: Thanks. I was wondering if it was written from a Charismatic perspective. You know, you have to consider the source. :)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.


Jmj

Hello, Bill. You wrote:
"have to appologize for my last paragraph above. Looks like a few paragraphs got jumbled together when I cut and pasted from Word to the site."

When you copy and paste text that was originally in paragraphs, you must insert your own HTML commands to cause the paragraph breaks to reappear. The easiest way to do this is with a "new paragraph" command, consisting of the following three characters (dropping the quotation marks): "<" "p" ">"

Bill, I also want to comment on these words of yours:
"I can't tell you the number of stories I have been told where God has led a person to Christianity first, into a very superficial church, then into the fullness of truth -- Catholicism."

It is not correct to say that "God has led a person" into some part of non-Catholic Christianity. Jesus said, "I am ... the truth" -- the fullness of the truth. It would be contrary to his perfect nature, "the truth," to "lead" someone into an entity that contains error. God leads people only into the Body of Christ, the fullness of the truth, the Catholic Church.

I know what you are trying to express, but it has to be stated without saying that God would "lead" a person into error. Perhaps you can say that God, with his "permissive will," "let" (not "led") a person to absorb his truth gradually, when the person was not yet ready to accept the fullness of the truth.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.


Jmj

Hello, Paul H.
I am here to support you and confirm that you do not deserve any criticism from Jeanie, whose grammar is absolutely atrocious and merits your corrections.

Without giving an antecedent for the word "church" in the first sentence -- leaving the reading wondering what she was talking about -- Jeanie wrote this mess:
"You know in that church that there are many false doctrines. Doctrines that both the Lutherans and Catholics agree are fundamental to the Christian faith such as denying the real presence in Holy Communion or that Baptism is a means of grace. And I think that we can even agree that all that there is abosutely no Biblical support what so ever for that "Rapture" stuff.

The second sentence -- belay that, because it is not a "sentence," but a sentence fragment, since it lacks a predicate. Let me start again ... The words between her first period and second period, as well as they can be decoded, seem to be saying that Lutherans and Catholics deny the real presence and deny that Baptism is a means of grace."

Don't give in, Paul H. She needs to learn from you.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.


About tongues in the Bible, I will just briefly put down what I vaguely remember from distant past. They can be broadly listed as follows:

1.  Praying/speaking in tongues for personal edification.
2.  Singing in tongues.
3.  Speaking/prophesizing in tongues for building up the believers.
4.  Speaking in tongues as a sign for unbelievers.

1.  Praying/speaking in tongues for personal edification (1Cor.14:2): A movement from man to God. Just as what Paul has quoted from Rom.8:26. It is for lifting your spirits, praising and worshipping God, and give free expression of your self to God without anyone else understanding it, except God. This mode of prayer among like-minded believers is very fruitful; leading to deep communion with God and with one another, aggressive intercession, prophecy, fellowship, etc.

2.  Singing in tongues though similar to the one above, is mostly used in praise and worship; especially hymns that leads to ecstatic singing culminating into deep silence and worship. Evidence of both praying and singing in the spirit is seen in 1Cor.14:15.

3.  Speaking/prophesizing in tongues for building up the believers. A movement from God to man, which should be discerned. Sometimes, at the end of deep praise and worship, some people may be inspired to give messages/prophecies in tongues (See 1Cor14.26ff), which should be interpreted by someone has the gift of interpretation of tongues (1Cor.12:10). If not interpreted is not very fruitful.

4.  Speaking in tongues as a sign for unbelievers: This is what happened when Holy Spirit first came upon the disciples during the first Pentecost (See Acts.2:4ff). Here, there can be both, ability to speak in another unlearned human language (Acts. 2:4), or as Acts.2:6 says, "heard them speaking in his own language" irrespective of what language they are otherwise speaking. I have heard testimonies regarding both types, especially the latter, and this is still active today in the Church.

In short, #1, #2, #3 is for believers, while #4 is for unbelievers, and can be listed as:
#1 and #2 are for edification of self.
#3 is for the building of the body.
#4 is for evangelization.

Hope this helps. Praise the Lord!

-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), December 11, 2003.


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