This is a subject that I am very interested in. Anyone have any personal stories?

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003

Answers

I second that i know enough to know i dont want to no more also...

KeV

-- kevin wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 06, 2003.

Jeanie said: 'This is a subject that I am very interested in. Anyone have any personal stories?'

I caution you, stay away from this topic. It is not something to trifle in.

Very seriously in Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

Why? Satan can't hurt me! I am a baptized child of God.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

No, Jeanie, if you venture into that sphere and let your guard down, or are super confident, he can and will lead you away from God. Remember Martin Luther's battles each night with the devil. And Luther was not the only baptized Christian to enter into that realm and find himself in a battle.

Best to keep to your sphere.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

But above all else, in all our dealings with the occult we ought to keep in view the teaching of Scripture that Satan has been defeated by the Son of God who was manifested to destroy the works of the devil and that we, too, are enabled by Christ to defeat him with the blood of the lamb and the gospel we proclaim. If our study of the occult has prompted us to look more consistently to Christ as the source of our strength and to pray more devoutly “Let thy holy angels be with me that the old evil foe may have no power over me,” it will not have been a waste of time.(Dr. Seigbert Becker, "Wizards that Peep", NorthWest Publishing House)

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 06, 2003.

"I caution you, stay away from this topic. It is not something to trifle in."

Bill Nelson's admonition should be heeded here, but Jeanie insists:

"Why? Satan can't hurt me! I am a baptized child of God."

Genie has posted lots and lots of stuff recently, much of it from outside sources. She has intended, no doubt, that we would read her material in it's entirety with a desire to digest it, or at least consider it.

Fair is fair though, and maybe it's time for an even exchange.

Genie, would you consider reading this link in it's entirety, and carefully, and answer a few questions?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 07, 2003.

jeanie,

i know this may sound off to you, but no matter who you are, you can become possessed. even as a catholic i admit that even priests can become possessed. trust me, for the sake of your soul when i say that demonic possession is a seriously grave matter. if you truly wish to know more, i can point you to a text that scares even me...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 07, 2003.

Jeanie, You might wish to read: Luther by Heiko A. Oberman (he is a University of Arizona history professor)

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

Jeanie, again i say as everyone else has this is not a subject to play around with. Now you wont agree with what i have to say next but iam saying it anyway like it or not. As a non-catholic or even a catholic who is in the state of sin, the devil has more sway and easyer to take control of you. And like it or not if you havent gone ot confession you are in sin, grave sins dont just go away when we dont confess them. Please Please tred littly on this subject, all it takes is one little trip up and we open the door to the devil. Once hes in hes not going easy!

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 07, 2003.

Jeanie, You asked if we had experience. From what I have seen and read and those people I know and respect have seen and experienced, the advice I gave was the soundest I can give. We are simply warning you to ease your curiosity someplace else.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

"First of all, I had confession and absolution this morning. Second of all, I don't agree with you, but I wont tell u why." Well um we have a problem then because martin luther could not ordain which means you dont have valid priest, means you didnet get anything fromt that "Confession"

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 07, 2003.

But in the Lutheran church it's cool though because we don't have individual confession anymore. We have "the short order of confession and absolution". We say something as a congregation together like a prayer. It goes something like this:

I confess that I am altogether by nature sinful and I have sinned against you in thought word and deed and do not deserve to be called your child....But I am truly sorry for my sins so I pray, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner"

Sorry I havent memorized it that was only the parts i remember. Then the pastor absolves us of our sins and does the sign of the holy cross and all of that before the whole congregation. Then we sing the kyrie. Then we have communion. It's such a blessing :) The protestant groups that don't do any of these things really don't know what they are missing out on:)

We used to have private confessioans. They did away with that probably I think 100 years ago. Of course if I am feeling particularly burdoned by my sins I can request one.

-- Jeanie (mary_kissmiss@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

I you think thats confession you have magor problem... Christ founded one Church the One Holy Catholic Church. The same Church the Apostels servered, not the lutheran church, not the baptists, or anyother church. You dont have the Body and Blood of Our Lord, your priests have no power. You fallow the teachings of a man made church.

KeV

-- kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 07, 2003.

The more I see of what you post, Jeanie, much of which has been deleted round and about the forum so far, the more convinced I am that the spirit of darkness is actively at work within Lutheranism. In the works that you have pasted and clipped from Lutheran sources, there are so very many subtleties of error that they are just downright devious and mischievous.

Note that I'm not saying you are devious and mischievous, but what you are imbibing is... it's deadly, Jeanie.

Always look to see, if you are able to perceive it, what is lost. The enemy seeks to take away real essence and replace it with hollow symbolism as a placeholder until the number of your days are complete and he can claim you. Gone is the Real Presence, Gone is the Mother of God, gone is the Mystical Body of Christ and the Communion of Saints and apostolic succession. It's gone, and there's nothing there in their place in Lutheranism but an empty shell.

My question: what do we have in common enough to be ecumenical with?

I've had occasion lately, locally and in other places than here, to come into contact with Lutheran thinking, and have learned things I did not know before; to learn more of it's origin and it's present influence. It is dark and scarry.

But there's a side benefit, though. I am now more convinced than ever that the proposition that traditionalist Catholics can in any way be compared to Protestants is as bogus a claim as has ever been made.

Thank you for this much. May the Blessed Virgin Mary reach her hand out to you, may you take it, and come into the bosom of the Holy Catholic Church.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 07, 2003.

You wanted personal stories. Well i have one, I was delivered from some lust demons,and am getting set free from religious spirits that I have had since I was a child, becuz of my past, and have cast out demons, to be totally possessed you really have to give yourself to Satan. But you can have demons within your soul that will keep you in bondage. You have to be honest with your sin, and expose the dark areas. And Jesus is the only way to freedom. No matter who you are, we are all fallen and have sin condemned in the flesh, since the fall of man. But God gave us the power to tread on serpents, by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are not to focus on this but know your enemy. Know how Satan tries to steal from you and keep you in bondage. Read the Bible on it, there is plenty of times the disciples cast out demons, and Jesus did to.

-- dave (Notmy Adress@something.com), December 07, 2003.

Jeannie,

Since you expressed an interest in this subject I will tell you a true story about this that was told to me by the exorcist himself the late Fr B--- several years ago. I hide names of those involved and places in order to protect the participants identity. I also add a caution not to get too interested in this stuff...it can have a habit of jumping out of its box and biting you on the nose if you know what I mean...baptised or not. But the story is cautionary so I will recount it for yourself and others...as a warning.

Father B was approached by a lady who's son was in a local mental hospital in the north of Ireland near Belfast were I live. He was a young man in his late teans whose behaviour had become increasingly bizarre and a cause for grave concern. Not only that but the staff in the hospital were increasingly reluctant to have any dealings with him....particularly on the night shift because of wierd occurances particularly the movement of objects on the ward of their own volition. Fr B visited the young man and very fortunately had the forsight to bring a crucifix with him to the hospital. When the patient saw him he leapt of the bed in a great fury and attempted as to kill/assault him. When Fr B produced the crucifix the man feel on the floor and writhed; exactly like a snake on the floor. When I say like a snake I mean exactly like a snake in a way that should have been anatomically impossible. Fr B subjected the patient to the usual range of tests recommended by the Church and also consulted the doctors who privately opinined that they too thought him possessed. Fr B passed results to the Bishop and thehe agreed to an exorcism the first in our Diocese in 48 years. Fr B was asked to conduct the exorcism himself and reluctantly agreed. The man was ferried from the hospital by ambulance abd Fr B conducted the exorcism with the help of a very holy lay brother. Surprisingly the exorcism was a very quiet affair and very successful. What had happened was that the youth and a friend had solemnly sold their souls to the devil...in a formal pact in return for protection, money and sucess particualrly protection for their drug dealing buisness...they actually had the head of a goat... symbol of the devil... which they woshipped. The youth in question tried to back out of the deal and that is when the signs of possesion manifested. The other youth stuck with the deal and as far as I know is still in Satan's grasp. He fell of a motorbike at seventy miles an hour and walked out without a scatch...he was caught red-handed with a large amount of cocaine and escaped on a legal technicality and so on and on... The possesed youth did not as far as I know do totally well he still needed counselling but the occult manifestations ceased and he was radically improved and released from hospital.

My advice is take heed of these matters but do not dwell on them too much...

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

and have cast out demons

unless you are a catholic priest and exorcist you have NOT cast out any true demons. had you studied the history of REAL excorcisms, you would know that it takes a most extraordinary person, who is also FORMALLY APPOINTED by the church to have what it takes to successfully complete an excorcism.

you drove out a few temptations, not demons. dont presume to be more than you are, it will lead to your downfall, demons are creatures with more power than you begin to imagine, and an excorcist is one who battles that power at great personal cost... it slowly eats away at them with each demon they expel.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 07, 2003.

Jeanie,

Catholic confess sins at mass too. Our's sounds like this:

I confess to almighty God and to you my bothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault. In my thoughts and in my words, what I have done and what I have failed to do. And I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you my bothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), December 07, 2003.

yes, scott, but we do recieve general absolution for the confession at mass except under dire circumstances. only personal confession can be used to gain reconciliation in normal times.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 07, 2003.

Yes we confess at Mass, but this is not a confession for a grave sin. It is only to clean our soul of small sins before we recive Our Lord we still must to confession and not receve in mortal sin.

KeV

-- kevin wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 07, 2003.

Paul H,

before condemning my post you should have had the courtesy and sense to read it properly. I never claimed to have conducted the Exorcism...as you quite rightly sat only a priest can do so. As i quite rightly said Fr B-- did. I dislike being called a liar or a fantasist. Father B was a very holy priest ands told me these things himself... Now if you want to reread my post, carefully this time and point out any faults of errors in it..do so and I will dialogue with you about it. If not then have the charity to keep quiet. No one likes being called a liar without cause.

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.

padraig,

before you condemn my post, you should read it all the way through. did you say that quote in italics? no. it follows, then, that my response was to the post above yours, from dave, who DID say that quote.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 08, 2003.

Sorry Paul forgive my abysmal ignorance! The pot calling the innocent kettle black!

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.

dont worry about it padraig, im sure ive done more than my fair share of wrongfully accusing...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 08, 2003.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Peter, Paul, and other apostles, cast out demons, they weren't priests they were your everyday people. Do you realize that God gave us his Spirit if you accept Jesus as your saviour? Do you realize who you are in Christ?

So Paul H. Are you trying to tell me that The Bible is False?

It's a good thing that I stand firm with God becuz if you said that to someone who wasn't, then you could have caused them alot of confusion, and chased them from God, and put lies into there head. I am not saying this to condemn but, but out of Love.

-- dave (notmy adress@something.com), December 08, 2003.

Demon posession? Come on, you guys don't actualy beleive hat crap do you?

Could it be that "Cast the devils out..." wasn't meant to be taken literaly? Could it have meant something about trying to cast out your bad qualities? Striving to better yourself?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 08, 2003.

Peter, Paul, and other apostles, cast out demons, they weren't priests they were your everyday people. Do you realize that God gave us his Spirit if you accept Jesus as your saviour? Do you realize who you are in Christ?

St Peter was the first pope, Paul was a priest (or bishop, John G, wanna verify?) and all the other apostles were preists as well. YOU, dave, are NOT an apostle, nor a priest who has the power of excorcism by apostolic succession. You may have accepted God, but that does NOT make you ready for excorcism

So Paul H. Are you trying to tell me that The Bible is False?

im trying to tell you that your interpretation is wrong, and, should you ever ACTUALLY attempt something against a real demon, you are likely to end up spiritually and mentally destroyed. I've done more than enough study on this subject to know that no mere priest, much less mere man can stand against a demon.

It's a good thing that I stand firm with God becuz if you said that to someone who wasn't, then you could have caused them alot of confusion, and chased them from God, and put lies into there head. I am not saying this to condemn but, but out of Love.

i hope and pray, for the sake of your soul and your salvation, that you never encounter a real demon. your sin of pride alone would lead you to your destruction. your words are not love, they are filth which you have been pumped up to believe. TRUST ME, if you see anything resembling a demon, LEAVE IT BE AND FIND A PRIEST. your arrogance is not worth the loss of your soul/mental stability/life

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 08, 2003.

The Apostles were not "everyday Christians". They were not only the first priests of Christ's Church, but also the first bishops. They possessed the power to consecrate the Eucharist. (Luke 22:19) "Everyday people" do not. They received a special indwelling of the Holy Spirit empowering them to forgive men's sins. (John 20:22-23) "Everyday people" have no such power. The Apostles had the power to ordain additional priests and appoint bishops. (1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) "Everyday people" have no such power.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 08, 2003.

Dave I have a degree in Psychology and Diplomas in Counselling. I am very well of the fact that there are good scientific explanations for the large majority of so called 'Demonic Possesions'. But the simple fact remains that there are cases beyond what science can explain...actual possesion by evil spiritual forces....the devil. These exhibit (and I repeat they are very, very rare), with a wide range of praeternatural phenomena...the movement of objects without cause.....speaking articulately in a wide range of languages unknown to the patient (including ancient and obscure ones)........the apparent ability to read minds.....apparent forknowledge....an uncanny ability to distinguish betwenn blessed and unblessed objects. I have, I hope, just as must respect for Scientific discipline as yourself but if you are interested there is a very wide literature on this subject.....many of these praeternatural phenomena have been attested to by reliable independent witnesses. Here the word of Shakespeare rings true, 'There are more things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in our Philosophy' The accounts of these occurances in Scripture are not simply fables they are actual historical accounts of real events.

-- Padraig Caughey (padraigcaughey@hotmail.com), December 09, 2003.

Anyone can cast out a demon in Jesus' name. We are all one in the body of Christ. The only one my righteous than us is Christ, being the head. I had heard a demon manifest itself and be casted out by a few Christian. You do not have to be a priest.

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 17, 2003.

Really?

"Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him. And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me. And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once. Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out? And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith"

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 17, 2003.

You left out the part where Christ told them that this demon takes prayer and fasting. Christ was able to because it is Christ! It's in his name he was! Now would the demon be casted out if the diciples prayed and fasted? Yes, that is what Jesus said. To whom do you pray and fast to? Mary? Your brother or sister? You pray and fast for Christ that he may fulfill something. Wanting to deny yourself to draw closer to him or to show him through this that it is a desire of your heart. Everything is through Christ. Show me a verse where Jesus says "Only Priests can cast them out, you fools!" You won't find one. I follow the bible and the bible alone. It tells me that there is power in Christs name. Let God work through you and have faith.

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 18, 2003.

The Apostles were priests, and bishops as well. Today's Catholic bishops are their direct successors, and it is only by the authority of the bishop that a priest can be designated an exorcist. Just like in Apostolic times. There is no scriptural record of anyone other than a priest casting out demons. Of course I am speaking of cases of possession. Any Christian can rebuke an evil spirit that is tempting him. However, cases of ongoing demonic oppression often require more than just personal prayer; and cases of possession, rare as they are, must be addressed by a qualified exorcist, who must be not just a priest, but a priest officially designated by the bishop. Just like in Apostolic times. Anyone else who even attempts to deal with such a situation is inviting self-destruction.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 18, 2003.

I disagree, Paul M.

Mark 9:38-40 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

This man was obviously NOT one of the apostles, yet God gave him authority to cast out demons. He wasn't sent out on any authority aside from the one that is in Christ's name and power.

-- jonmac (jonmac36@yahoo.com), December 18, 2003.

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that only a Catholic Priest with permission of a bishop may perform what is called a "solemn exorcism". A Solemn exorcism is performed on a person who is fully possessed.

Lesser forms of demonization that do not require a solemn exorcism may be handled by any Christian by virtue of the Name of Jesus Christ. Technically this is called, "simple exorcism" or more popularly called "deliverance".

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 18, 2003.

"However, cases of ongoing demonic oppression often require more than just personal prayer; and cases of possession, rare as they are, must be addressed by a qualified exorcist, who must be not just a priest, but a priest officially designated by the bishop. Just like in Apostolic times. Anyone else who even attempts to deal with such a situation is inviting self-destruction"

Paul, you act as if it is only the work of a man, casting out demons from our own strength? What is the Holy Spirit for? I'd like to point to you a story. God told Moses that he was going to free the Isrealite. He said that God needed to get someone else, that he was slow of speach. What was God's response? "But the Lord answered, "Who has made man's mouth? Haven't I, the Lord?" We must let God work through us. What can man not accomplish when he deny's himself and let's Christ shine? That is why we have the Holy Spirit. You say that priests and bishops have the right because of successorship. Is that a Biblical teaching or church teaching? In my bible it tells me as a follower of Christ I am of a priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9

You also give mention of it taking more than "personal prayer". Prayer is one of our most powerful defenses against Satan. 1 Timothy 5: 14-15 "This is the confidence we have in approaching God; that if we ask anything to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us -whatever we ask- we know that we have what we asked for. Sounds like personal prayer is promising prayer.

You also say that demons have more power than we can imagine. This is true, but don't forget that Satan is already defeated. 1 Cor 15: 54-57 We have already won the battle. Now he is a pathetic angel roaming with his followers, gathering as many souls as possible. Satan has as much control over us as we give him. God says there is no temptation that comes to us to big for us to over come. WE are the reason that we sin. Satan yes tempts us, but we are the ones that take the bait. 1 Cor 10:13 "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God, is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so you can stand up under it." Demons do not scare me. Christ has won. He is with me always. What do I have to be afraid of? Jesus said "For I stand at the door and knock. Whoever hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in" Jesus dwells in my heart. If a demon wants to take my soul, he will have to go through Jesus because he will be the one answering the door. Amen? Yea, Amen. Our God is all powerful. Let us all not forget that.

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 18, 2003.

"Paul, you act as if it is only the work of a man, casting out demons from our own strength? What is the Holy Spirit for?"

A: Courtney, if I thought for a moment that casting out demons was the work of a man, then why would I deny that any old Tom, Dick or Harry could do it? It is precisely because it IS an ordained ministry of the Holy Spirit that ordinary Christians have no such powers. Does everyone in your church baptize people? Or preside at weddings? If not, why not? Can't the Holy Spirit work through us all?

"We must let God work through us. What can man not accomplish when he deny's himself and let's Christ shine? That is why we have the Holy Spirit."

A: We have the Holy Spirit to enable us to do what God has specifically called us to do. But He does not call all Christians to do everything. He calls some individuals to special pastoral or leadership positions, including though not restricted to clerical positions. And He empowers those individuals to do the job He has called them to do. He does not give other individuals the same graces. Why would He? He gives grace to all of us, but some graces are ministry-specific. Not everyone in the early Church was called to be an Apostle, and not everyone was capable of doing everything the Apostles could do by the power of the Holy Spirit.

"You say that priests and bishops have the right because of successorship. Is that a Biblical teaching or church teaching? In my bible it tells me as a follower of Christ I am of a priesthood."

A: Yes, A priesthood - the same priesthood which the early Christians were part of - NOT the priesthood to which the Apostles were ordained. There has always been a general, communal priesthood of believers, and there has always been an ordained ministerial priesthood, with powers and graces far beyond those of ordinary lay Christians.

"You also give mention of it taking more than "personal prayer". Prayer is one of our most powerful defenses against Satan."

A: Yes it is, in the case of ordinary temptation. It is also effective in cases of satanic oppression; however an oppressed person is often incapable of praying effectively, and communal prayer, often combined with spiritual counseling, is often necessary to break such a spiritual hold on a person. Possession on the other hand, is such a pervasive and overt presence of evil that a person must be especially knowledgeable and experienced in such matters, have special protection of the Holy Spirit (a ministry-specific grace), and also be a person of exceptional personal holiness, to be able to approach such a situation without tremendous risk to their personal spiritual, emotional, mental, and even physical health. There are cases on record of unqualified, unauthorized people suffering tremendous personal harm, including death, as a result of their feeble attempts to take on Satan face to face.

"You also say that demons have more power than we can imagine."

A: I didn't say that, but I do agree with the statement - and also with most of your remarks about it. However, your remarks are primarily about temptation and personal sin. None of what you say applies to an unqualified person blindly walking into Hell, planning to take on Satan in hand to hand combat and win. Only a qualified and authorized exorcist has any chance of succeeding at such a task - and they do so at personal risk. Sometimes even they don't win.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 18, 2003.

How can you walk into hell when Christ is in control? If I was to meet a person possessed with a demon, all I'm doing is letting Christ use my body that he created. Allowing him to use my mouth. Now I can cast out the demon, but doesn't mean I can lead the person to Christ. God chooses the person before the person ever chooses God. Nevertheless, I still with the Holy Spirit can accomplish the task. My point is that no where in the Bible does it say that only a priest possesses power. My youth pastor has a friend in California who hosts a Christian radio station. He had a young girl call in that had parents who were involved in a satanic church. As he began to pray for her, the demon manifested himself. For about ten minutes the demon and the radio host conversed (mostly about how her soul belongs to the demon). God used this man to lead this young girl, Rebecca, to Christ. Right there on the radio, she was free of that bondage. This was the most powerful thing I have ever heard. Not because of the demons raspy low voice, but I learned the power of God! The radio host was not scared and listening to him I learned that It wasn't his words going forth. Everything he said was so perfect! The demon, after being asked, admitted that Jesus has the victory! The radio host also told him that it was a miracle this girl called in today. God appointed. The demon then grawled and said "Someone was praying for her". Just one person, praying for Rebecca, set off a chain of events leading to this girl giving her life to Christ. Now, being this radio host, knowing that you defeated Satans attempts on this young girl, how could you feel destroyed? I would feel alive, pumped up. Hey, I felt that way just listening to it. The only thing we are to fear is God. He is the Almightly One. Satan worthless. He's defeated. If you are interested I will send you the tape. God Bless

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 19, 2003.

Just to point out that deliverance wasn't always something reserved for specially-appointed priests.

Origen mentioned that many Christians cast out demons 'merely by prayer and simple adjurations which the plainest person can use. Because, for the most part, it is unlettered (or illiterate) persons who perform this work.' Origen added that exorcism does 'not require the power and wisdom of those who are mighty in argument.'

Justin Martyr stated that 'many Christian men' exorcise demons that cannot be cast out by pagans. Women cast out demons, too, women like St. Eugenia in the third century.

Both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus believed that Jews could perform exorcisms in the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Tertullian went so far as to say that the noblest Christian life is 'to exorcise evil spirits--to perform cures...to live to God.' In his book The Shows he tried to convince pagans that there was more true enjoyment in casting out evil spirits and healing the sick than in attending the pagan plays and shows of the day.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Lesser forms of demonization that do not require a solemn exorcism may be handled by any Christian by virtue of the Name of Jesus Christ. Technically this is called, "simple exorcism" or more popularly called "deliverance".

Again, only a Catholic Priest with permission of a bishop may perform what is called a "solemn exorcism". A Solemn exorcism is performed on a person who is fully possessed. These solemn exorcisms don't happen unless we are sure it is not a psychiatric problem. These full possessions are extremely dangerous for someone without experience and the fullness of faith to tamper with.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

Bill Nelson, you said~~~ Lesser forms of demonization that do not require a solemn exorcism may be handled by any Christian by virtue of the Name of Jesus Christ. Technically this is called, "simple exorcism" or more popularly called "deliverance".

Can you please list the Vatican documents where this is explained, where all Catholics are told that they can do simple exorcisms or deliverances? Which documents tell how a Catholic knows whether the demon is present and whether only a simple (rather than solemn) exorcism is needed? Which documents describe the kinds of prayers or gestures, commands, etc., a Catholic can, and cannot, use in a deliverance?

In case you are wondering why I am asking these questions, it is because I don't believe that they have legitimate answers. I don't believe that any pope or any Vatican office has ever approved of something called a "simple exorcism" or "deliverance" in which the laity can take part in cases of "demonization" (your word). I will humbly admit to being wrong if you can prove that I am by giving documents and quotations.

If you are just talking about praying for someone who is suffering physically or mentally or spiritually, then, yes, anyone can do that. But, in that case, let's call a spade a spade and not give a new and fancy name to it, "simple exorcism" or "deliverance." That kind of prayer does not drive a devil out, so it is not an "exorcism." It may help to free a person from temptation, but it is not a "deliverance" from an evil spirit who is possessing or oppressing someone. Save that work for a priest-exorcist, please.

Oh, and Courtney, I urge you not to be gullible. Things may have appeared to happen as you described them, in that radio situation (which you got word of third-hand). But I believe that the whole thing was a hoax. God and the devil don't allow themselves to be toyed with in that manner -- to be used for entertainment.

Oh, and Non-Catholic guy, don't quote ancient Catholics to us. You don't know what the saints meant, and you quoted two heretics, and you quoted ambiguous stuff, etc.. Try a Protestant forum, please.

jwqo

-- (~~justwonderin'@queries.org), December 20, 2003.

"Oh, and Non-Catholic guy, don't quote ancient Catholics to us. You don't know what the saints meant, and you quoted two heretics, and you quoted ambiguous stuff, etc.. Try a Protestant forum, please"

Two heretics??? LOL!! Well, they may have ended their lives in heresy, but they left the church a large legacy of orthodox writings that make them the most quoted heretics among Catholics in all of history. Funny how Catholics have no problem quoting Origen and Tertullian ALL of the time, but whenever one of their quotes makes them uncomfortable, because it contradicts something they believe, they roll out the "heretic" label to try to disqualify the statement. Sorry, not buying it - I know exactly what they meant - and so do you, but you're unwilling to admit it.

Even experts like the Vatican's Father Gabriele Amorth admits that today's Charismatic/Pentecostals have been successfully performing deliverance of fully possessed people - he's personally witnessed it.

Exorcism is not the exclusive realm of exorcist priests - it may be the only official way of handling it in the modern Catholic Church, but history tells a different story.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.

Like I said, Non-Catholic guy, "Try a Protestant forum, please." There's plenty of trouble-makers here already.

Were you once Catholic, but no longer? If so, that would explain it. The devil's got a firm grip on you, guy. Seems that YOU are the one needing an exorcist. Hop a plane and visit Fr. Amorth. He'll clean you up and receive you back into the Church to boot.

You DO play with the truth, don't you, boy? Calling your future exorcist "the Vatican's Father Gabriele Amorth," when he is actually a priest of the diocese of Rome, not a Vatican official. You'd do anything to prop yourself up, such as exaggerating a person's role (first the heretics you mentioned, who were NOT bishops ~~~ and now a very fallible priest, who is NOT a bishop).

Contrary to your falsehoods, Mr. BS-artiste -- first, I AVOID quoting the heretics you mentioned -- for the very reason they were heretics -- and second, you don't have any idea what ancient Catholics meant. If you did, you would be Catholic. Don't try to turn against us the same old-timers who show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are only a "fractional Christian," instead of being what God intended you to be: a full Christian, a Catholic.

If you'd check what I told you last time, you'd see that I didn't say that you were necessarily 100% mistaken (about exorcists, Jews, etc.). But history lectures can only be given here by Catholics, not by separated brethren whose versions cannot be trusted -- for example, by guys like you, who are trying to cause trouble by sowing seeds of division. Scat now, boy. Get those airline tickets.

-- (~~justwonderin'@queries.org), December 21, 2003.

Your lack of maturity is reflected not only in your ad hominem attacks, but also in your failed arguments. Please return to this discussion when you've sufficiently matured to where you can make a contribution. Until then, you're just a clanging cymbal - annoying but harmless.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), December 21, 2003.

Oh, and just for the record "just wondering" (or is it John Gecik in disguise?), you don't make the rules around here and you have no authority to tell people what they can versus can't do. I've been posting to this forum for far longer than you and will post as long as I wish. Come to think of it, I think that among active posters, I've been here longer than anyone else except the occasional post by our friend, Mr. Ortiz.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), December 21, 2003.

A hoax. That is what I would have thought too, but we have a thing called the Holy Spirit. When I started to here this, the Holy Spirit confirmed to me what this was. Even though this was 10 years prior, I just went into prayer mode. The Holy Spirit was like "Come on Courtney, fight this battle." Also let me state that this demon did not speak because he wanted too. He was told to by the name of Jesus Christ. The radio host is not just any old man. He is very well known. Now if this happened to me, the first thing I would do is pray for God to give me the words. I would think this man did the same. Wouldn't God then tell them this was fake? Well, anyways, the whole point is to show the power of just one prayer and that when Christ is in control there is nothing to fear.

Mr. Nelson I ask where in the bible it talks about the difference in possessions. Where does it state only a CATHOLIC priest can preform this and after only getting permission. If you show me a verse I would agree with you, but your view is that way because the church says it that way. My authority is the Word of God.

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.

My authority is the Word of God too. Jesus told the leaders of His Church "he who hears you hears Me", and "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". Do you accept these passages? If so then you must accept that the teaching of His Church IS the Word of God. If you can show me a verse that says the Word of God is restricted to the Bible I would agree with you. But if you can't, then your insistence on biblical support for every belief is simply a modern tradition of men, which the Bible clearly tells us to keep away from.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 22, 2003.

Mr. Nelson I ask where in the bible it talks about the difference in possessions. Where does it state only a CATHOLIC priest can preform this and after only getting permission. If you show me a verse I would agree with you, but your view is that way because the church says it that way. My authority is the Word of God.

Here are some references for you:

He gave the power for a major exorcism specifically to the Apostles, not the faithful in general:

He appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach and to have authority to drive out demons: (he appointed the twelve:) Simon, whom he named Peter; James, son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, whom he named Boanerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus; Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. --Mark 1:14-19

He summoned the Twelve and began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over unclean spirits. --Mark 6:7

Then he summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits to drive them out and to cure every disease and every illness. Matt 10:1-2

These activities are the same as those of Jesus; see Matthew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; 10:8. The Twelve also share in his proclamation of the kingdom (Matthew 10:7). But although he teaches (Matthew 4:23; 7:28; 9:35), they do not. Their commission to teach comes only after Jesus' resurrection, after they have been fully instructed by him (Matthew 28:20).

So, the decedents of the Apostles in Apostolic succession are the only ones who have the power to discern and perform a major exorcism. Ignorance of the need for proper authority is bliss, that is, successful, if and only if God empowers it. But this is very dangerous all together, for without the proper authority one is personally opened up to the attacks of the evil one. Note that Jesus didn't send everyone to cast out demons. In fact, He put quite a severe limitation on this, an action which is absolutely legitimate for the Church to imitate. This could be why when objective people investigate exorcisms the ones that seem really to occur and cannot be explained by scientific or psychological means tend to be those performed by Catholic priests.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.

Paul, i ask you to look at these passages. Find anywhere that say "thy church" and not the "thy Word"

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." Psalm 119: 160

The Bible boldly declares that it is the only final authority:

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18-19

Paul admonishes true believers to avoid anyone who teaches doctrines contrary to the written Scriptures. He also reveals the consequences of believing such false teachings:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8 "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:9

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6 "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul..." Psalm 19:7 (we dont need to add anything to a something that is already perfect)

As these and hundreds of other scripture verses make plain, God never gave anyone the authority to add to or change His Word. It's perfect and complete, just as He wrote it.

One of the first questions you must answer for yourself is, "Did God violate all these Scriptures by giving the pope and the Catholic church the right to change His Word, though He said He never would?"

And to Bill, please explain Mark 9:38-40 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward."

What are the rules for being an apostle. Isn't being an eye witness of Jesus? 1 Cor 9:1-2 How then can there be an apostical succession?

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.

And to Bill, please explain Mark 9:38-40 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward."

This is a principle of the divine tolerance, it is not an instruction that you should go about trying to perform a major exorcism. That power was given, specifically, to the 12 apostles.

What are the rules for being an apostle. Isn't being an eye witness of Jesus? 1 Cor 9:1-2 How then can there be an apostical succession? The apostles were called specifically by Jesus. We know who they were and they were given power by Christ to build a Church and pass along that power. There were originally 12. Judas was one who betrayed Christ. Peter was the one choisen by Christ to lead them and upon which Christ built a Church.

The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

I hope this helps,

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.

Courtney, why would you want directly to violate one of this forum's rules?

Part of your latest post is copied from this page at the disgusting Jack Chick site. Are you a flaming anti-Catholic "chick" like ol' Jack?

One of the rules on the "Moderator's Note" thread states, "posting of specifically bigoted material (such as Tony Alamo or Jack Chick tracts), or mocking or open hostility toward Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His Holy Church, or its divinely-appointed Vicar are not appropriate, and such threads/posts will be deleted."

-- jwqo (~~justwonderin'@queries.org), December 22, 2003.

You are right at that I don't believe in the Catholic church. I think that they give more athority to the church than to the Word of God. There is only one infalable man and that is Jesus Christ. Not the Pope. I don't believe that all catholics are "hell bound". It says in the bible that you have to believe in Jesus to be saved. But that is even different than catholics. They say that you have to be apart of the catholic church. I don't think that most of thier views are biblical. I'm sorry if it is coming off as fighting, I merely want this to be a debate. My grandma is Catholic. I have sat down and talked to her. I asked here how someone gets to heaven. She said "We must do good to others" She hold Mary higher up than Jesus. Now this is not all Catholics, but most that I have meet. It is all about what you must do. You must confess your sins, go to mass, be apart of the right church...none of these "requirements" are in the bible. Jesus says and one that believes will be saved. You don't do things because you have to but because you want to. I am not judging anyones salvation. Only God can do that. I do not know a mans heart. But I don't believe in the Apostical succession. I don't believe that Peter was the first Pope. There are many doctrines that don't follow the Bible. I want to discuss these. If not then maybe we should just stop here and agree to disagree.

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

Instead of taking it on yourself to attack the Catholic Church, I think you should first find out more about us. You might be surprised. Attend a Catholic Catechism course for example, instead of just talking to one or two people. Or you can ask specific questions on this forum.

Some points here from your previous post:

. There is only one infalable man and that is Jesus Christ. Not the Pope.

Jesus, in the Gospels, specifically created a Church and passed on to Her what He taught and commissioned the Apostles to pass on those teachings to others. When we say the Pope is infallable, we are talking about infallability in that teaching of faith and morals that was given to the Church by Jesus. The Pope makes all kinds of other mistakes like any man. Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matt 28:18-20

I don't think that most of thier views are biblical.

Christianity is a tradition of beliefs that was given to men by Jesus. The book we call the Bible, especially the New Testament was compiled after the Church was formed. Your faith should be rooted not in the Book, but in Jesus Christ and what He did and taught on earth: that comprises both scripture and tradition. After saying this, I think you will be surprised just how much Catholic teaching is rooted in scripture.

I merely want this to be a debate.

You are not going to convince anyone here, I suggest you make this not a debate but an opportunity to learn.

My grandma is Catholic. I have sat down and talked to her.

Cool, that is a start in trying to understand the Church. Realize you will only get one view by talking to one person.

I asked here how someone gets to heaven. She said "We must do good to others

Not quite Catholic dogma. We need strong faith to get to heaven, however faith without works is nothing.

She hold Mary higher up than Jesus

Then she is in error here. This would be heresy in the Catholic Church.

You must confess your sins Yes, Jesus taught us, and it is in the Gospels that you must confess your sins. We go to a priest to confession because Jesus gave His Apostles the power to forgive sins: "'As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.' After saying this, he breathed on them and said: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.' (Jn 20:22-23). "If one of you is ill, he should send for the elders of the church....if he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven." (James 5:14, 16). So you see, it is in scripture. It was Jesus who started it. Certainly, if we have committed a mortal or deadly sin we will receive forgiveness if we confess it directly to God so long as our confession is free of self interest, i.e. we are sorry because of our love for God and not because we are worried about going to hell. In the Sacrament of Penance where we humbly our sins before another person. In this, Jesus makes up for any weaknesses in our motivation. The Sacrament is of Jesus' doing and is a further act of His generosity. When we go it on our own, we are on our own. For more on this, log on to: "http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm". -- from: Fr. Vincent Serpa

, go to mass Jesus said, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me." Luke 22:19

...none of these "requirements" are in the bible.

Actually all of them are.

. Jesus says and one that believes will be saved. You don't do things because you have to but because you want to.

That is true. Also remember, faith without works is nothing. So if you have faith, you will do good works. If you don't do good works, you don't have faith. Good works alone cannot save, just as faith alone cannot save. What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:14-24

There are many doctrines that don't follow the Bible. I want to discuss these. If not then maybe we should just stop here and agree to disagree.

As you can see, most of your questions can be answered with direct scriptural references. That doesn't mean everything in the Catholic Church comes only from scripture. As I pointed out before we also are passing along a tradition that originates directly from Jesus.

I am eager to clearify any misconceptions you have or answer any questions you might have about a particular teaching.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

The Pope is the highest of all Catholics, right? Is it safe to say that the doctrine he teaches goes for the rest of the church too?

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

Since Christ told the first Pope "I give unto you the keys to My kingdom ... whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven", what He teaches is therefore binding on every person on earth. Not everyone realizes this fact of course, but it is still the stated will of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 23, 2003.

May I take a moment to explain why I don't think Peter is the first Pope?

-- Courtney (cortfig@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

The Pope is the highest of all Catholics, right? Is it safe to say that the doctrine he teaches goes for the rest of the church too?

Think of the Pope as the custodian of all Christian dogma and the Church Christ established with Peter as head ("upon this rock I will build my Church"). He is a shepard, a care-taker, making sure nothing is lost. When he speaks 'infallably' it is only about faith and morals and then, rarely. It is ALWAYS to support something that has always been. Faith and morals of the Church has not changed in 2,000 years. The doctrine proclaimed from the Pope is the doctrine of the Church. But that is not the only way Church doctrine is proclaimed. More often in the Catholic Church doctrine is proclaimed by the bishops meeting as a whole on faith and morals. The Magistarium is a name for all the bishops meeting as a group on doctrine. Again, doctrine on faith and morals has not changed in 2,000 years. However each generation of bishops are responsible for explaining Christian doctrine to their generation in terms their generation understand. Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows:

"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).

The pope is the head of the bishops and holds a special place (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256ad, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10).

An infallible pronouncement made by the pope alone, by an ecumenical council, or by the constant teaching of the Church’s magisterium (bishops as a whole) through the centuries is usually made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics and no pronoucements are made on them.

I am sure this will lead to other questions.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

Yes, Courtney. You may "take a moment to explain why" you "don't think Peter is the first Pope". However, I'll tell you in advance that you won't convince anyone to agree with you, and someone will explain why you are mistaken.

Do you know about the forum's "archives" (thousands of old discussion threads), where you can read past discussions of the various topics about which you have objections, questions, etc.? It would help everyone if you could read there, rather than "re-invent the wheel" on new threads like this one. Scroll down to "Older messages (by category)" after you go to the forum's home page.

-- jwqo (~~justwonderin'@queries.org), December 23, 2003.

May I take a moment to explain why I don't think Peter is the first Pope?

Certainly. You might wish to start a new thread if you do. Reviewing past threads would also be wise before you bring up material we already have addressed in the past.'

By the way, historically there is really do doubt that Peter was the first Pope.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 23, 2003.

great, i leave for a couple weaks and everyone is ready to up and take on a demon.

im not going to scripturally qualify this, because i believe that God has the ability to affect things in the world. if you want to argue sola scriptura then take it to the protestant forum...

sufice it to say, i have more than studied this subject SPECIFICALLY and KNOW for a fact that not anybody can take on all possessions. There are, however, different levels of influence, but for a full blown case of demonic possesion, ONLY a qualified CATHOLIC excorcist has EVER been historically recorded and proven to have successfully excorcised a victim.

IN FACT, the very idea of thinking oneself capable of facing down a demon is a matter of self pride that would lead to self destruction in a real case of a clash with a demon. there is no excorcism over the radio, or the telephone. there is no conversing with a demon. its sheer evil power and force of will is more than enough to crush any man it comes against, especially because its evil will is more and more exposed as an excorcism goes on.

the priest is, as several have said, of little consequence in the battle. the war is between Christ and the demon. HOWEVER the priest is the battleground between good and evil, he is the Channel by which Jesus comes and fights the demon. BUT he must have the will to continue on in the face of evil. unlike the demon, who has a forced chanel, Christ must work through a man who can very easily become afraid or doubtful and be destroyed. the consequences of excorcism, if successful are mental destruction at best and death can result as a worst case(even with success). failure means anything from a tormented death at the hands of pure evil, to mental and spiritual destruction or even possession on the part of the priest.

i will not go into any more now. just leave with this. demons dont go on the radio and expose themselves just because someone says please. while the rest of malachi martins works may be dubious, i must recommend his text "hostage to the devil" if anyone is interested in what REALLY occurs in an excorcism. otherwise, steer clear of the subject for the sake of your life, sanity, and soul...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 24, 2003.

Jeanie

Yes, I do have personal stories. I pray often that the Lord in his mercy will keep me from such trials, though His will first.

Jeanie if you go to the Spiritual Warfare Form at www.saint- mike.org/apologetics/QA.html you will find the information you are seeking. It is a Catholic forum that along with the personal stories you seek will provide you with instruction on how to protect yourself.

There is a difference between deliverence and exorcism of a fallen angel. They have links to articles that clearly explain when and how a Catholic may engage in spiritual warfare.

If you are going to dabble in demons I pray to Jesus that you be moved to also seek out articles about how to put on the whole armour of God.

May the full mercy of the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ be upon us all.

San

-- San (Sandreamer0@lycos.com), December 24, 2003.

JEANI: GO TO THIS SITE, THE FAMOUS SPANISH EXORCIST ANTONIO FORTEA HAS A SITE! THERE U CAN FIND STORIES POSTED ON THE FORUMS:

http://www.fortea.us/english/index.htm

GOD BLESS U ALL!

IN CORDIBUS JESU ET MARIAE

A FRIEND

-- A FRIEND (never@mind.tv), December 28, 2003.

Lee,
You could very well have what is known as "Old Hag syndrome" or "The Incubus". It seems to be a caused by a sleep disorder called, 'sleep paralysis'.

Things believed to trigger Sleep Paralysis are : Sleep deprivation, either through lack of sleep, frequent disruption of sleep or changes in sleep patterns (such as swing shift workers). Stress or high anxiety. Narcolepsy.

See: http://www.arts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/incubus.html

http://www.hauntednc.com/7learn_hagphenom.html

http://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/2002/legends7_11302002.shtml

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 03, 2004.

I just had add my two cents worth in to this noticeboard which is of great personal interest to me.

The Devil is a very powerful force within the world and is at his best when he subtly works his brand of 'magic' by making almost everyone alive doubt his very existence.

To be at most danger from him is to think that he can't ever touch your life or in any way get to you. Then you are at your most vulnerable.

However, I can tell you from first hand experience that there is a spiritual plane all around each and everyone of us and that devils and angels interact with our bodies and soul each and every day.

If you are under God's protection then you have little to fear from Satan. I can assure you that each and every one of has a guardian angel and a whole host of others who attend upon us. If we do wrong, turn away from God and seek out Satan, then the good ones disappear and the evil forces take their place.

If you fall foul of the Lord spectacularly, then he can allow Satan to take you over completely.

And may I say that it's not Satan you need to fear alone, but God's wrath more than anything else. Because God does and can cast sinners in to hell for eternal punishment and those who are consigned to hell with Satan need to rethink their ways. The innocent and good rarely get in to Satan's clutches.

So do right, pray to the Lord, keep away from all forms of the occult, confess your sins, whatever faith remain Christian and know that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have held on to a lot of the central tenets of Christianity that came straight from the very earliest teachings of Christ our Lord.

Have faith, if you are under God's protection and follow his path, Satan cannot touch you.

Amen

Down with Satan forever .............

-- Anon (anon@nottelling.com), May 22, 2004.

Ok. I know all of your hearts are in the right place. If you are saved by the blood of christ you don't need to worry about being possessed. But that doesn't mean that Satan can't draw you away from God and your christian duties. Satan and demons are still dangerous to you even if you are saved because they can still tempt you. Be careful when you research this subject not all of these websites are scriptual. If they point out a bible verse check it out yourself. Don't take their word for it too easily. And don't get cocky just because you understand demons as some of you have said. Of course, you are right about that. Just be careful with where you choose to get your info from. No i am not saying that anyone is wrong but just be careful. Just remember just because you are saved doesn't mean that you are completely saved from Satan. Maybe from possession but not from temptation which the bible stresses that it can be dangerous to christians. The goal of the demons is to destroy us. And sin destroys us just like possession destroys non christians. Thank you for reading. Please do not email me.

-- Jason (Divewjason@excite.com), June 12, 2004.

I have just briefly read over this messageboard. My heart is heavy now, because in reading accusations, and judgments; Love, What our lord Specificaly asked , didnt seem to be flowing. The awesome power of God, has no equal. Jesus, our mediator, our rolemodel, the Express immage of God Almighty, is come to give hope. Man has no power! Jesus has the power! If "I AM", is with you, who can stand against you, a Demon?? I know credible stories of Demons being cast out by children, in South America!! Children, as Confident as can be, Not in themselves, but in Christ: when asked if they were scared they replied, saying " No, why should we be scared, JESUS ALWAYS WINS!!!!" Submission to God, Saving Faith in the Lord. I am Proof that the Good lord can Save any man, and he verymuch came to me and lead me to him!!! He wants to be personal with ALL of his Children, and he needs no Man to extend his Grace and Forgivness!! A Faithfull request can cast out any Demon. Yahweh is bound only by his own attributes, and he DOES NOT LIE!! Jesus said that in his name there is power! I am weak and lowly, a sinner by nature, But He is Strong, and fierce, and Jealous over his own. I pray that Jesus hold our hearts Close, to His! for Jesus is what we need!!!!

-- Sebastian (None@none.com), July 05, 2004.

Just a side comment, and I haven't read all these postings, so if this posting is repetitive, just ignore. If I'm not mistaken, I recollect that one of the stages of a priest's ordination are rites that make him an Exorcist level, which is a stage of pre-ordination, before he is completely ordained. LB

-- Lydia Byrd (oiseaumouche@aol.com), July 11, 2004.

no lydia,

only fully ordained priests who have been specially appointed to the post of excorcist have ever carried out a successful excorcism. everyone else who has ever attempted to excercise a verifiable case of demonic possession has 1) died, 2) killed the possessed person, or 3) both.

the faith of the people above is noteworthy, and a good sheild, but they are also foolish if they believe that satans minions are easily cowed. they underestimated evil, and that is as much an undoing as any other fault.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 12, 2004.

I don't think priests nowadays are exposed to any kind of exorcism training, at least in my state. Exorcism is believed to be a superstitious practice, which is outdated because now science can explain everything. This modern statement/belief by most modern seminaries is very good rock of refuge and fortress for the devil.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 12, 2004.

paul,

Actually, your statement is not true. The section below from the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm) clearly states that the tradition of the church records ordinary Christians as successfully performing exorcisms with great ease. There are other, modern day examples of successful exorcisms not performed by official Catholic exorcists, but that would initiate a side argument that I'm not trying to start here, so I'll just focus on the Catholic tradition aspect that makes the point.

Here is that section from the Catholic encyclopedia:

(1) Exorcism of the possessed

We have it on the authority of all early writers who refer to the subject at all that in the first centuries not only the clergy, but lay Christians also were able by the power of Christ to deliver demoniacs or energumens, and their success was appealed to by the early Apologists as a strong argument for the Divinity of the Christian religion . . . As is clear from testimonies referred to, no magical or superstitious means were employed, but in those early centuries, as in later times, a simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God, and more especially in the name of Christ crucified, was the usual form of exorcism.

But sometimes in addition to words some symbolic action was employed, such as breathing (insufflatio), or laying of hands on the subject, or making the sign of cross. St. Justin speaks of demons flying from "the touch and breathing of Christians" as from a flame that burns them, adds St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Origen mentions the laying of hands, and St. Ambrose, St. Ephraem Syrus and others used this ceremony in exorcising. The sign of the cross, that briefest and simplest way of expressing one's faith in the Crucified and invoking His Divine power, is extolled by many Fathers for its efficacy against all kinds of demoniac molestation. The Fathers further recommend that the adjuration and accompanying prayers should be couched in the words of Holy Writ. The present rite of exorcism as given in the Roman Ritual fully agrees with patristic teaching and is a proof of the continuity of Catholic tradition in this matter.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), July 15, 2004.

Topping for Paul H.

-- . (.@.....), July 21, 2004.

there was a reason i didnt answer davids post. that being that it has already been addressed by myself, paul m, and bill nelson already. i prefer not to spam the thread going over the fact that full possessions require an ordained excorcist while minor possessions can be cured by blessing by an ordinary priest and possibly (although not advisable) a layperson.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 22, 2004.

Paul,

Sorry, but that does not address what I posted. The quotes I posted there were talking about fully possessed people (i.e., "demoniacs"), not lesser possessions and oppressions as you assert. Why is it so difficult to admit that the practice today is different than it was in the tradition of the Church?

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), July 22, 2004.

David killed Goliath, but if you are built like Pee-Wee Herman, facing down the Incredible Hulk probably isn't the wisest idea in the world. How faithful are you? When is the last confession you made? Are you sure enough of your faith in the Lord to go up against the Devil?

I don't know Dave, what's the big rush to be an exorcist? For my money, let the pros do what they've been trained to.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 22, 2004.

The quotes I posted there were talking about fully possessed people (i.e., "demoniacs"), not lesser possessions and oppressions as you assert.

contrariwise, david, i looked up both the words energumen AND demoniac, and would like to share with you the definitions i found:

1) energumen: One possessed by an evil spirit; a demoniac.

Okay, not much useful information there, they're synonyms. and possession and exorcism doesnt deal with evil spirits, it deals with demons. so i looked up demoniac and here are a few of the definitions i found:

1) Possessed, produced, or influenced by a demon (hmmmmnn... influenced by a demon, in otherwords, NOT FULLY POSSESSED)

2) One who is or seems to be possessed by a demon (SEEMS to be possessed, so apparently one doesnt even need to be possessed to be a demoniac)

3) One of a sect of Anabaptists who maintain that the demons or devils will finally be saved. (oh, dear me, these are religious people who arent even possessed who are called demoniacs. what does this do for your case?)

4) in a murderous frenzy as if possessed by a demon (again, demoniac is shown not to even be necessarily applicable to one who is FULLY possessed but rather to one who merely ACTS as if they are possessed).

cut and dry, another clear examples of protestants seeking to teach before they know. as i have suggested before, if you see a demonically possessed person, RUN. you dont even begin to have a clue what a demon is like. i suggest, dave, that you take a look at some transcripts from exorcisms. in the ones i have read, the very written words of the text made me feel foul just for having heard them... like the very way the demon spoke twisted the world and everything of beauty into filth. i can only imagine the feeling of actually being in the demon's presence and hearing its putrid words. i fear little, but this is one area i would stay clear of.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 22, 2004.

Paul,

I've been directly involved in some exorcisms over the years and have heard them speak, and 'yes' it makes your hair curl. I've never let a demon get very far in speaking, though. As soon as I realize who's talking I tell it to be silent and to leave the person at once, and amazingly, it does. I can relate to the disciples when returned to Jesus amazed that even the demons obey them. I don't listen to demons because I figure that since they are liars and deceivers, that I can't trust what they say, so why listen, plus they know that it scares us and puts them at an advantage. I don't give them that platform, I cut to the chase and command them to leave in the authority of the name of Jesus. The only time I've had trouble in delivering someone was when the possessed person harbored unrepentant sin which gives the demon authority to dwell in them. The person needs to confess the sin and renounce it in order to facilitate their deliverance.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), July 23, 2004.

to be frank, dave, i dont believe that the people whom you "exorcised" were ever really possessed. what doctrinal verification did you have? what procedures were followed? what symptoms existed? What was the demons name? what actions were made by the possessed person? did anything supernatural or obviously impossible occur (for example, six men needed to hold down one woman from floating off a bed).

again, MAYBE you were dealing with a minor case of demonic influence... i doubt you know the half of what possession fully means. for example, you state that if a person has a non repented sin that they harbor it makes the possession more difficult, and yet ALL possession is about unrepented sin and eventual ACCEPTANCE of evil into ones life. there is no possession of those who are unwilling, it is saving them afterwards which makes an exorcism.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 23, 2004.

I must agree. What Dave is describing is the ministry of "deliverance", which is commonly used in certain Protestant denominations, and to a lesser extent in Catholic charismatic communities, to help free people of spiritual oppression in a particular area of their lives. Spiritual oppression is fairly common, while demonic possession is extremely rare. Still, even the ministry of deliverance can hold some spiritual danger for a minister who is not solidly founded in the faith and fully in a state of grace. People I know who are or have been involved in such ministry would fast and pray for the week preceding, receive the Eucharist daily, and go to confession before ministering in this way. Yet, spiritual oppression, as troubling and painful as it can be for a person so afflicted, is minor, compared to demonic possession. And ministering through prayers of deliverance is FAR removed from facing evil incarnate in direct combat through solemn exorcism (as opposed to "simple exorcism, as used in the rite of Baptism).

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 23, 2004.

What the hell?? oh isn't that ironic. . you people are turning this into a bunch of my religion is better than your religion crap. . . First of all, maybe if people realized that you are all trying to do basically the same thing and it all comes back to basically the same entity whether you think it is god or whatever. THe bible, how can anyone believe the bible?? I mean I am sure it started out with a buncha stories of how it really was back then, but then people passed it on for years without even writing it down!! Hello, have you ever played telephone??? I am sure some form exists, some greater thing, but why and how are you all so sure that there is even the basic good and evil?? could it not just be one, depending how you harness and interpret whatever it is??? And lets say there are good and evil, what would the percentage be of people who have experienced 'miracles of god'?? the rest of the followers are just blindly following crap they hear from other people. . .how do you know that you are not infact following satan who's followers tell you that they are catholic and they are christian and they are prodestant and they are lutheran and so on??? I have used the ouija board a few times, and have even seen one of my friends 'possessed'. Maybe all you people who think that you have the best religion should think about what you are actually following. . .I think the only way to distinguish between whether you are practicing good or evil is to look at all aspects of the way everything you do affects every part of your's and others' worlds.

-- Heather (mushrifdjw@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.

David

I suspect you are not Catholic. If so, you are consciously rejecting Christ. The Catholic Church was founded and given authority by Christ.You cannot be for Christ,like you say you are, and be against Him at the same time.

I think this is important as the first sin against God was disobedience. All in Christs Kingdom must first be obedient to Him, this means in this world being obedient to His Authority which is in the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church being obedient to Him.

Protestants quote Scripture to support themselves AGAINST the Church which recorded and gave them the Scripture. This is terrible.

You quoted the following:

(1) Exorcism of the possessed

We have it on the authority of all early writers who refer to the subject at all that in the first centuries not only the clergy, but lay Christians also were able by the power of Christ to deliver demoniacs or energumens, and their success was appealed to by the early Apologists as a strong argument for the Divinity of the Christian religion . . . As is clear from testimonies referred to, no magical or superstitious means were employed, but in those early centuries, as in later times, a simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God, and more especially in the name of Christ crucified, was the usual form of exorcism.

You do not remind readers that there were no protestants around then and that the Christians, who were the Catholic Church, were faithfull to Christ and obedience to His church.

One piece of Scripture about Moses comes to my mind, it is where God commands Moses to strike the rock. But Moses had other ideas of his own and added on them to Gods command. Because of this alone God told Moses that he would not see the Promised Land.

Obedience to God and to His Church and to His who He gives authority to in the church is vital in the fight against evil. For this is obeying God and doing His will, and gives Gods authority to acts.

-- abc (abc@d.e), March 09, 2005.

Dear all ladies and gentlemen,

I'm afraid I must interject and address some of the statements that have been made. Many Catholics in this forum have been quick to criticize the statements made by Dave and other Protestants (though, I am curious as to what so many Protestants are doing in a forum entitled "Catholic").

I would just like to cite some of the most well-known sources on demoniac possession and exorcism in the Catholic Church today:

"At the beginning, many Catholics tied to the renewal movement discovered the practice of deliverance among Christians of other traditions, belonging mainly to the Free Churches or Pentecostals. The books that they read, and still read, for the most part come from these denominations. Among their literature there is an enormous wealth of information on the devil and his acolytes, on witchcraft and its methodology, and so forth. In the Catholic Church, this field has been left almost fallow. Our directives for specific pastoral response are inadequate for our times." -- Cardinal Suenens, 'Renewal and the Power of Darkness' (Pauline Editions, 1982, pp. 79-80).

Father Gabriele Amorth, author of "An Exorcist Tells His Story" (1999) and the most celebrated exorcist in Rome, also notes the effectiveness that certain Protestant exorcists have had in dealing with problems of demoniac obsession, oppression, infestation, and even possession.

An episode in the Gospels further provides evidence for such practice: wherein the disciples expressed criticism for an exorcist who drove out demons in Christ's name, for he was not with them. This is an important distinction to make. The exorcist is merely an instrument of the power of Christ. It is in Christ's name, not by the hand of the exorcist, that demons are put to flight.

We should also note the existence of a movement within certain Church leaders to change the canonical policy that limits the practice of exorcism to priests. Many suggest reinstitution of the minor orders of exorcist (which existed during the Middle Ages) as a solution to the current shortage and dire need of the faithful in that particular ministry. In such cases, lay exorcists would be employed to handle cases of obsession, oppression, etc.; whereas demoniac possession, severe cases of infestation, etc. would be reserved for experienced priests.

The current prohibition of the practice of exorcism by lay people is largely a matter of safety. Those who do not have sufficient knowledge or experience in matters of exorcism or demoniac possession put themselves at great risk when facing the forces of darkness. Further, there is the perception that lay people lack the discipline to restrict themselves to the guidelines set forth in the formal rite of exorcism in the Roman Ritual (e.g.: through frivolous questioning of the demon, they might be led astray, etc.).

That said, I think that statements made should apply to their respective audiences.

Protestants: continuing practicing exorcism as you see fit, and through the grace of God we wish you success in your fight against the forces of darkness.

Catholics: observe the prescriptions currently in canon law, and reserve the realm of exorcism to priests specially selected for that ministry; until such time as the ministry of exorcist may once again be extended to the laity through minor orders. Trust the good judgment of Holy Mother Church.

Let's not forget that, despite our differences, we are all on the same side here. However, I do assert the correctness of the formal rite of exorcism in the Roman Ritual, as it has proven consistent effectiveness. Also, I warn Protestant exorcists that means must be taken to ensure that deliverance was actually achieved (as demons often feign deliverance and the victim may experience temporary relief as a result, believing himself to have been totally freed), as prescribed in the Roman Ritual. Failure to do so would constitute a very grave error. Aspects of the Catholic tradition are extremely important, and though the Catholic Church might benefit from integrating the laity into a more active role (in the realm of exorcism, etc.), Protestants certainly have a great deal to learn from the extensive and well-documented history of exorcism within the Church and the proven effectiveness of the formal ritual.

God bless, MVB

-- MVB (mvbtwin@yahoo.com), March 11, 2005.