Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

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The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

If we wish to discuss Sola Scriptura then we first have to establish where the Bible came from. Who decided what books were in the Bible? Did is Bible just fall out of the sky?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 10, 2003

Answers

The Jewish people decide what books are in the Bible, James.

See Ch. 50 in Sirach.

It tells you what books were accepted by 230 BC.

See 2 Peter. It tells you which letters from the New testament were already accepted.

Later councils only decide what was already decided. They only added a few books and subtracted others.

see Muratorian Fragment.

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.

From the revised standard Version:

It is actuall Chapters 44-50. This is the introduction. Sir.44 [1] Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers in their generations. [2] The Lord apportioned to them great glory, his majesty from the beginning. [3] There were those who ruled in their kingdoms, and were men renowned for their power, giving counsel by their understanding, and proclaiming prophecies; [4] leaders of the people in their deliberations and in understanding of learning for the people, wise in their words of instruction; [5] those who composed musical tunes, and set forth verses in writing; [6] rich men furnished with resources, living peaceably in their habitations -- [7] all these were honored in their generations, and were the glory of their times. [8] There are some of them who have left a name, so that men declare their praise. [9] And there are some who have no memorial, who have perished as though they had not lived; they have become as though they had not been born, and so have their children after them. [10] But these were men of mercy, whose righteous deeds have not been forgotten;

< These books are not mentioned: Maccabees(not yet in existance), Daniel, Esther and Ruth(women), Judith, Job> Fro NET Bible: 2 peter: 3:15 And regard the patience of our Lord as salvation,51 just as also our dear brother Paul52 wrote to you,53 according to the wisdom given to him, 3:16 speaking of these things in all his letters.54 Some things in these letters55 are hard to understand, things56 the ignorant and unstable twist57 to their own destruction, as they also do to the rest of the scriptures.58

So it is a lie that the Catholic Church created the Bible.

The original name of the Church was the Way. It was a mostle judeo- Messianic Church, not many G Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. From the Blue Bible:

Act 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men. entile Christians in it.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 10, 2003.

"So it is a lie that the Catholic Church created the Bible."

AMEN!!!

The Bible came from God, NOT the Catholic Church!!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 10, 2003.

Kevin says:

"So it is a lie that the Catholic Church created the Bible." AMEN!!!

The Bible came from God, NOT the Catholic Church!!!!

My question to you is when did God give us the Bible? When, where and how?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

James wrote, "My question to you is when did God give us the Bible? When, where and how?"

It is God who gave us the Bible, NOT the Catholic Church. It was the Apostles who put their own writings into circulation.

"Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16). "I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren." (1 Thess. 5:27).

The Scriptures do NOT owe their existence to the Catholic Church, but to the POWER and PROVIDENCE of God for He declared that His word would abide FOREVER. (1 Pet. 1:23 25).

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

We have Jesus words preserved for us in the New Testament.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 11, 2003.

So what you are saying is that all of the writings of the apostles are in the Bible?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

James,

I did NOT say that now did I???

I answered your post, now how about answering my post?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 11, 2003.

I will certainly agree that God gave us the Bible in that He inspired the writers to ensure that is the infallible word of God. Now, that said however, in the very early days of the church there were a lot of manuscripts floating around. Someone had to decide which manuscripts were part of the canon of scripture. That is, someone had to decide which books were inspired and which were not. That is something that the church had to decide, specifically the Catholic Church, the name coming from Ignatius of Antioch. If you deny that the Catholic Church decided this, then who sorted out the manuscripts and decided what was inspired and what wasn't inspired? I think we would both agree that the manuscript entitled: "The Gospel of Thomas" wasn't inspired, but we weren't given the job to make that distinction. Who was?

James wrote, "My question to you is when did God give us the Bible? When, where and how?" It is God who gave us the Bible, NOT the Catholic Church. It was the Apostles who put their own writings into circulation.

"Now when this epistle is read among you, see that it is read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and that you likewise read the epistle from Laodicea." (Col. 4:16). "I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren." (1 Thess. 5:27).

The Scriptures do NOT owe their existence to the Catholic Church, but to the POWER and PROVIDENCE of God for He declared that His word would abide FOREVER. (1 Pet. 1:23 25).

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

We have Jesus words preserved for us in the New Testament.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

Sorry about copying your post into my message. I meant to erase it before I sent it.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 11, 2003.

Since you asked Jeanie, I will tell you why I became a Catholic. First of all, I became a Catholic because I read the Bible. There were a lot of issues that my Baptist pastor conveniently ignored. Part of the problem was that my pastor got to pick and choose which parts of the Bible that he preached on. Catholics have a lectionary where the Bible readings are chosen in advance. This lectionary covers virtually the whole Bible over a 3 year period (including daily masses).

Second, my Baptist church had a lot of informal rules that weren't scriptural. For example, women wearing pants were frowned upon. It's good to encourage modestly, but this is going to far. Baptists in my opinion can get very legalistic. Also, Baptists can be personality dependent. A pastor may be the only preacher in a church for years. Catholicism is much less dependent on the individual personality.

I am well aware of what "sola scriptura" believing Christians think about the Catholic view of Mary. However, when I read what the church actually teaches, in my opinion it is not idolotrous. Not everyone can accept that.

I don't say these things to offend Baptists. Many of them love the Lord and are only doing what they see as critical to save people from hell. In my opinion, the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth. I don't expect many people here to accept that, but tht is what I believe.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 12, 2003.

James; Have you ever attended a traditional Latin Mass? I have been a Cathoic all my life, but when I found the traditional Mass, I could never, ever go back to a Novus Odo Mass. There is no comprison. The whole atmosphere is one of silent, respectful holiness. No talkimng before the blessed Sacrament. Lot's of kneeling, (especially when receiving), the priest saying. "may the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christbring you to everlasting life" . Not Just "body of Christ" in my hands, while standing. It is something I never want to lose again. God bless You.

-- Larry (Lawrence@34.com), December 12, 2003.

James gives the often repeated Catholic argument that the Catholic Church gave us the Scriptures. The Bible is inspired and has authority, NOT because the Catholic Church declared it so, but because God made it so. Jesus did not teach the people in His day that they could accept the Old Testament Scriptures only on the basis of those who placed the books into one volume. The same is true of the New Testament Scriptures.

There are NO verses in all of the Holy Scriptures which indicate that the church has the authority to originate truth or to decree laws for God. The apostles and prophets, and they ALONE, were commissioned by the Lord, NOT to ORIGINATE TRUTH, but TO REVEAL TRUTH.

Their task was once and for all COMPLETED for they gave us the WRITTEN New Testament of Christ.

The Scriptures are the standard by which we will be judged in the last day. Rev. 20:12 says, "...And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." (See also Rom. 2:16; James 2:12; John 12:48). We will NOT be judged by unwritten traditions, teachings of the Pope, legislations of the church, writings of the so-called church fathers, etc., thus, again, showing that the Scriptures are the ONLY standard.

Paul's words vividly teach that the Scriptures thoroughly equip us for every good work and, thus, no other standard is needed or allowed. Any so-called good works that men might do which are not in the Scriptures, cannot be good works in God's sight because the Scriptures equip to every good work.

Catholics CLAIM to follow the Bible, but in their own words they DENY that it is the ONLY source of inspiration and they claim that without the Catholic Church no one can be saved.

The GOSPEL is the power of God to salvation, NOT the Catholic Church as they would have you believe. (Romans 1:16).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 12, 2003.

20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

23 Whose sins ' YOU SHALL' forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you.

27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing.

28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.

30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are NOT WRITTEN in this book.

31 But these are written, that you may believe

-- Larry (Lawrence @34.com), December 12, 2003.

John 20 1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
3 Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre.
4 So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre.
5 And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
10 Then the disciples went away again unto their own home.
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my LORD, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 12, 2003.

Ok Kevin,

You claim the apostles gave us the written New Testament. My question to you is how did they decide what is the inspired Word of God and what isn't? When did they make this decision. Do you have some firm facts, or do you just accept the tradition that the apostles decided what books belonged in the New Testament?

Larry, I never attended the traditional Latin mass. I will try it sometime though. Thanks for the suggestion.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

Larry wrote, "Kevin; What did Jesus mean when he said "Whose sins you shall forgive"."

This was spoken of to the apostles ONLY, and NOT Catholic priests. Please tell me HOW the apostles were able to forgive sins???

Larry wrote, "And what about, "is not written in this book"?"

Not sure where you were going with this question??? Please explain yourself a little more.

James wrote, "Ok Kevin, You claim the apostles gave us the written New Testament. My question to you is how did they decide what is the inspired Word of God and what isn't?"

Do you not think James that the apostles KNEW that what they WROTE were part of the New Testament Scriptures??? Of course they did for the apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 14:37, "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."

Now, how about answering my earlier post???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 13, 2003.

Kevin in his earlier post claims that says we have the Bible because God gave it to us, not because the Catholic Church gave it to us. We can both agree that the Bible is inspired because of God gave inspiration to the writers, however that does not suggest that the Catholic Church was not the vessel through which the Bible appeared in the course of human history.

Kevin says: There are NO verses in all of the Holy Scriptures which indicate that the church has the authority to originate truth or to decree laws for God.

Well for one, the church does not have the authority to make up laws at its whim, however it does reveal the laws of God.

For example,

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven’" (Matt. 16:18-19).

Jesus gave the church the keys of the kingdom and the power to bind and loose.

He also gave the power to forgive sins:

"‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23).

Perhaps the reason why there are so many different protestant denominations is that nobody believes that the church has any authority. If I don't like something my church teaches, I just start my own church.

Finally, Kevin asks: Do you not think James that the apostles KNEW that what they WROTE were part of the New Testament Scriptures???

Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't, but all we know is there were a lot of writings at the time, and the ones that were inspired were not labeled as such.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003.

When Catholics, Protestants, or Christians say that a book of the New Testament is inspired, they mean that when it was written (being written), the Holy Spirit guided the writer.

Now if the books of the New Testament were inspired when they were in the process of being written, how could a council some hundreds of years later "declare" and "decree" that they are inspired? (The Catholic church says that they were declared to be inspired at the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D.)

That is the same thing as if some council had met in 390 A.D. and declared that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. If He was born of a virgin, no decree of a council years later could make it any truer: and if He was not born of a virgin, all the councils on earth declaring and decreeing could not make it so.

Be it remembered that printing with moveable type was not invented until the fifteenth century. Prior to that time the Bible, as well as all other books were written in manuscript from by hand. We do not have any of the original manuscripts, but we do have authentic copies. One of the oldest of the manuscripts is the Codex Sinaiticus, which dates back to the middle of the fourth century, or about 350 A.D. It contains all the Bible except for small portions of the Old Testament, and it has NEVER been in Catholic hands.

This manuscript was made YEARS BEFORE the Council of Hippo convened the council which Catholics declare "gathered and declared to be infallible" all the books of the New Testament.

Consider some of the versions of the Bible. A manuscript is a copy of the Bible made in the same language; a version is the translation of the Bible from one language to a another. The Bible has been translated into almost every known language. Homer's Illiad was trans-lated into 20 languages; Shakespeare's plays into 33; Pilgrims Progress into 111. But the complete Bible has been translated into 136 languages and portions of it into well over one thousand languages and dialects.

Let this fact be placed alongside the Catholic claim that the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D. "gathered" the books of the New Testament and declared them to be infallible.

Note: The Syriac Version was translated from the original language into six dialects of the Syriac in the second century a full TWO HUNDRED YEARS before the Catholics claim that they gathered the books together.

How could the books have been gathered together for the first time in 390 A.D. when the Syriac Version had already been in circulation for more than 200 years?

The Old Latin Version was translated from the Greek into Latin at the close of the second century. The Coptic Version was translated from the Greek into Latin at the close of the second century. The Coptic Version was translated from the Greek into the Egyptian at the close of the second century. These and many other translations of the Bible, as we have it today, were made and in wide circulation centuries BEFORE the Catholic Church says she gathered the books.

Do not be misled by the Catholic Church.

The world is in NO SENSE dependent on Catholicism for her Bible!!!

The Bible was in existence, widely circulated, and recognized as the inspired word of God for many centuries BEFORE the Catholic Church even existed.

James, please EXPLAIN how the apostles were able to "remit" and "retain" sins???

The SAME power "binding and loosing" was given to ALL the apostles, NOT only to Peter. (Matthew 18:18).

So your CLAIM that the KEYS were ONLY given to Peter is FALSE.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 13, 2003.

"James, please EXPLAIN how the apostles were able to "remit" and "retain" sins???"

Well i like the way he just proved his sola scriptura false. It says so in the bible and he doesnt beleave the bible. You guys should think about things before you write then... Gets confusing trying to remember ll the arguements you used doesnt it???

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 14, 2003.

Another case of Kevin's plagiarism:

Kevin [Walker], Don't you have the ability to think on your own?

Consider the following and compare it to Kevin's post. It was found at: NPR At It Again--Fake Ossuary of St. James

"Consider for instance the declaration that the books of the New Testament were "gathered and declared to be infallible" by the Catholic Church in the fourth century. In her anxiety to turn people away from the authority of the "church" they have made a very obvious blunder. When Catholics, Protestants, or Christians say that a book of the New Testament is inspired, they mean that when it was written (being written), the Holy Spirit guided the writer. Now if the books of the New Testament were inspired when they were in the process of being written, how could a council some hundreds of years later "declare" and "decree" that they are inspired? (The Catholic church says that they were declared to be inspired at the Council of Hippo in 390 A.D.) That is the same thing as if some council had met in 390 A.D. and declared that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. If He was born of a virgin, no decree of a council years later could make it any truer: and if He was not born of a virgin, all the councils on earth declaring and decreeing could not make it so.

Be it remembered that printing with movable type was not invented until the fifteenth century. Prior to that time the Bible, as well as all other books were written in manuscript form by hand. We do not have any of the original manuscripts, but we do have authentic copies. One of the oldest of the manuscripts is the Codex Sinaiticus, which dates back to the middle of the fourth century, or about 350 A.D. It contains all the Bible except for small portions of the Old Testament, and it has never been in Catholic hands. This manuscript was made years before the Council of Hippo convened-the council which Catholics declare "gathered and declared to be infallible" all the books of the New Testament.

Consider some of the versions of the Bible. A manuscript is a copy of the Bible made in the same language; a version is the translation of the Bible from one language to another. The Bible has been translated into almost every known language. Homer's Illiad was translated into 20 languages; Shakespeare's plays into 33; Pilgrims' Progress into 111. But the complete Bible has been translated into 136 languages and portions of it into well over one thousand languages and dialects.

Let this fact be placed alongside the Catholic claim that the Council of Hippo in 390. A.D. "gathered" the books of the New Testament and declared them to be infallible.

Note: The Syriac Version was translated from the original language into six dialects of the Syriac in the second century-a full two hundred years before the Catholics claim that they gathered the books together. How could the books have been gathered together for the first time in 390 A.D. when tile Syriac Version had already been in circulation for more than 200 years?

The Old Latin Version was translated from the Greek into Latin at the close of the second century. The Coptic Version was translated from the Greek into the Egyptian at the close of the second century. These and many other translations of the Bible, as we have it today, were made and in wide circulation centuries before the Catholic Church says she gathered the books.

Do not be misled by the advertising of the Knights of Columbus. The world is in no sense dependent on Catholicism for her Bible. The Bible was in existence, widely circulated, and recognized as the inspired word of God for many centuries before the Catholic Church even existed."

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), December 14, 2003.

James wrote, "Another case of Kevin's plagiarism:"

Big deal...So I copied this from another website, and NO the website that James provided is NOT where I got this information from.

James wrote, "Kevin [Walker], Don't you have the ability to think on your own?"

Yes, I do. It is obvious that James does NOT have the ability to answer what has been posted REGARDLESS of whether it was copied from another website or not.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 15, 2003.

I wrote, "James, please EXPLAIN how the apostles were able to "remit" and "retain" sins???"

To which KeV replied: "Well i like the way he just proved his sola scriptura false. It says so in the bible and he doesnt beleave the bible."

Please EXPLAIN KeV how your statement above is true??? Maybe you can provide the ANSWER on HOW the apostles were able to "forgive" and "retain" sins???? How did they do this KeV???

KeV wrote, "You guys should think about things before you write then... Gets confusing trying to remember ll the arguements you used doesnt it???"

No, it is NOT confusing at all when the TRUTH is being told. If what I have posted is NOT the TRUTH, then I would suggest to you that you start PROVING how what has been presented is NOT the TRUTH.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 15, 2003.

http://www.phatmass.com

Catholic Apologetics and Catholic Hip Hop.

Christ and HIS Bride the Church.

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

Regarding where the apostles were given the authority to remit and retain sin.

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

Did Jesus give the apostles the power to remit sins? Did the apostles hear confessions and prescribe penance? Did they assume the role of Judges and give judicial sentences?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/forgiveness.htm

Forgiveness of Sins

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

The Forgiveness of Sins This topic is of utmost interest to all of us, no matter what our religion may be, since we are all sinners and in need of forgiveness and reconciliation with God. Sadly, there is a fundamental difference between the teaching of Roman Catholics and Evangelical Christians on this subject. The Catholic Church teaches that Christ instituted the sacrament of penance. Rome teaches that forgiveness is granted through the priest’s absolution to those who confess their sins to a priest and make satisfaction for them. On the other hand, Christians believe that Christ sent his disciples to proclaim the Gospel; whoever repents and believes is forgiven on the merits of the sacrifice of Christ, whoever rejects Christ is lost. Christians confess their sins to God and to one another.

To support their position, Catholics appeal mainly to John 20:23: “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” It is immediately apparent that the crucial aspects of the Catholic doctrine of penance are absent in this passage: there is no mention of priests, secret confession or satisfaction by penance.

Clearly, Jesus gave the disciples the power to forgive. “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them...” The question we need to ask is not whether Christ gave them power to forgive – Catholics and Evangelicals agree up to this point. We need to ask about the kind of power he gave them. Did He make them judges and invested in them judiciary power to pass sentence on the sinner, as Rome teaches? Or did He make them His ambassadors to proclaim forgiveness through faith in his name, as Evangelicals believe? In other words, can a sinner receive forgiveness directly from God through faith, or must he avail himself of the Catholic priest’s mediation?

Judges or messengers?

Well then, did Christ constitute His disciples judges or messengers of the gospel?

Rome teaches that “although the absolution of the priest is the dispensation of another’s bounty, yet it is not a bare ministry only, whether of announcing the Gospel, or of declaring that sins are forgiven, but is after the manner of a judicial act, whereby sentence is pronounced by the priest as by a judge” (Trent, chapter 6).

To support the doctrine that the priests impart God’s forgiveness in this fashion, the Catechism refers to 2 Corinthians 5:18. The Catechism argues this way: “The apostles and their successors carry out this ‘ministry of reconciliation’ not only by announcing to men God’s forgiveness merited for us by Christ, and calling them to conversion and faith; but also by communicating to them the forgiveness of sins...”

I would ask the reader to study Paul’s words in their context and ask whether Paul saw himself as a judge or preacher of good news:

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God” (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).

Paul was an ambassador and he performed his ministry of reconciliation by telling others about Christ and His cross, imploring sinners to be reconciled to God. He did not act as a judge giving judicial sentences! The apostle Paul said elsewhere, “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man (Christ) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things (Acts 13:38,39). The Christian minister forgives sins through the preaching of the Word and not by sitting on a judge’s seat.

This conclusion is verified from other passages in the Bible. We have a clear picture of the doctrines and practices of the apostles in the New Testament. We do not read that the apostles were judges, or that they heard confessions, gave absolution or prescribed penance for the satisfaction of sins. On the contrary, we read how they went everywhere proclaiming the Gospel just as the Lord had commissioned them just before His ascension into heaven:

“Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things” (Luke 24:46-48)

Similarly the apostle Peter knew that his power to forgive was related to preaching the Gospel. Peter said that the Lord “commanded us to preach unto the people.” He does not mention confession to himself or to a priest as the means of obtaining forgiveness, but “that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:42,42).

The Christian church still has this tremendous responsibility to reach the entire world with the forgiveness of God. The minister of Christ must proclaim the Lord Jesus and His cross, telling people to repent and believe in Him to receive forgiveness of sins. Believers are assured that “your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake” (1 John 2:12); just as unrepentant people are warned that they shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Confession

Christians should deal with their daily sins by confession to God. “If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Even during the Old Testament, confession was made to God: “I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin” (Psalm 32:5). Similarly, the Lord Jesus taught his disciples to pray to their heavenly Father for forgiveness, “Our Father which art in heaven...forgive us our sins” (Luke 11:2,4).

Sin is primarily the breaking of God’s Law, but it also injures human relationships. Therefore the Bible encourages us to confess our faults and to forgive one another. “Confess your faults one to another” (James 5:16). “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you” (Ephesians 4:32).

Christ also wants the Christian community to deal with sin in the church, seeking reconciliation between the members and to disciple obstinate sinners: “And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 18:17,18).

In this context, Jesus is not speaking about preaching the Gospel to unbelievers. He is giving instructions to the church how to deal with sin among Christians. We should note that the power to bind and loose is given to ‘the church’ and not to a select group of priests. Christ reassures the congregation that if they come to the extreme disciplinary action of excommunicating one of the members, their decision is consistent with the will of God. What the church binds on earth has been bound already in heaven, and what the church looses on earth has been bound already in heaven. The NASB translation clearly brings out the force of the future perfect tense, “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

The church is further instructed to forgive and receive back into fellowship the excommunicated member if and when he repents (2 Corinthians 2:7). When a sinner repents, God forgives him, and therefore the church should also forgive and receive him back into fellowship.

Yet it should be clear that when we forgive one another we are only dealing with the offense on the human level. I can forgive my brother his offence against me, but I cannot forgive him his guilt in the place of God. He should seek God for such forgiveness because it is His Law that was broken. Similarly, when the church forgives a repentant person, he does not receive God’s forgiveness through the church. God forgives him when he repents. The church is then bound to receive him back because God has already accepted him; “forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”

Discipline was taken seriously in the early church, and rightly so. Sadly the biblical practice degenerated and eventually gave way to the sacrament of penance. First, the works that follow repentance were seen as expiatory. Secondly, the purpose of confession changed from reconciliation with the church to reconciliation with God through the ministry of the priest. The Roman Catholic practice of secret confession to a priest is a late historical invention. The Catechism of the Catholic admits that secret confession to a priest was a new practice introduced in the seventh century.

"During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the 'private' practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on [that is, from the seventh century], the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament" (paragraph 1447).

Confession to a priest is a departure from the practice of the early church. True Christians have always confessed their sins to God because the Lord’s Prayer had been in their hearts and on their lips since the apostolic age.

Satisfaction

In the Catholic religion, when a sinner is absolved by a priest, he is still required to receive punishment for his sins. "Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin; he must 'make satisfaction for' or 'expiate' his sins. This satisfaction is also called 'penance'." (Catechism, 1459). "Let [the penitents] keep in mind that the satisfaction imposed by them is meant not merely as a safeguard for the new life and as a remedy to weakness, but also as a vindicatory punishment for former sins" (Trent, 14, VIII).

Catholicism prescribes prayer, fasting and almsgiving as forms of penance, which is defined as a vindicatory punishment for sins. Such a doctrine is far removed from the biblical teaching that sinners are cleansed by the blood of Christ and not because of personal suffering or anything else we may do. The good works that accompanies repentance are considered as the “fruit” and not as “punishment” (Matthew 3:8, Luke 3:8).

The Bible says that God set forth Jesus Christ “to be a propitiation through faith in his blood” and that Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins” (Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2). ‘Propitiation’ means the satisfying of wrath. By his death on the cross, Jesus bore the righteous wrath of God against the sins of his people.

The Bible declares that Jesus "by one offering hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." And since the offering of Christ on the cross perfects all believers, there is no point in offering anything else for their sins. "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin" (see Hebrews 10:14-18).

Jesus Christ “gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Christians are not redeemed or purified by their works but by the sacrifice of Christ who gave himself for them. They do good works because they are already purified and not the other way around.

Conclusion

The church of Christ is commissioned to proclaim the message of forgiveness to the world. In this sense the disciples have power to forgive sins. Christians are taught in Scripture to ask God for forgiveness for their daily sins and are never instructed to confess to a priest. In the church, Christians are exhorted to confess and forgive one another. The satisfaction for sin is the blood of Christ and not the sufferings and works of Christians.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

Copyright Dr Joe Mizzi, 2003

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

Please excuse the multiple posts as the board is a little difficult to read. But Blessings in the name of CHRIST! I think it's great that we can discuss and edify one another as Christ has directed us to. I for sure can relate bro.Kev..I mean if the Catholic Church is "man- made" and directed by the ordinances of man then for sure...I wouldn't be following it. I mean shoot...I love Christ more than man, right? But there's one thing that you mention regarding the forgiveness of sins and Peter. I'm not sure if it was just because of they way the answer was posted or if it really wasn't presented properly. But if you don't mind, I ask for you indulgence as I try to explain it better. You are correct when you say it was given to the 11 remaining apostles and not just Peter. However the fact that you logically conclude from this that Peter is not the Head of the Church, does not make sense. The power to remit and retain sins was given by CHRIST HIMSELF to the 11...however HE also gave the keys specifically to Peter. He said to Peter and Peter alone (the coward...the one who denied Him) Upon you (Kephas) I will build my Church. He didn't say it to all of them. He said it to the one. So I don't know if that clears up some of the argument placed forward. I don't expect you to embrace this whole heartedly...but I appreciate the fact that you are mature and sound in your faith to discuss it.

Blessings, PMPhenom http://www.phatmass.com

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

Hi David, Actually yes...if you look in the NT it shows you that people went to confess their sins to the apostles specifically.

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

He did give the apostles the power to remit sins, by making them PREACHERS. When they preached, those who BELIEVED had their sins forgiven (acts 10:43)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

please show me where he did that.Where he said forgive sins through preaching you preachers.

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

I see your Biblical Support for Confession and Confessing of Sins...but none for being forgiven through Preaching or having others Preach to you.

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

PMPhenom,

This is what the Entire New Testament teaches. Read the book of Acts, and you will see which interpretation of John 20:23 is right. Christ made the apostles preachers, not judges. Those who believe are forgiven of sins (acts 10:43)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

Please note that my comment was answering your question which was whether or not the apostles held confession. I have given you evidence of such..I await yours.

-- PMPhenom (submit@phatmass.com), December 27, 2003.

Acts 10:43

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

When they proclaimed the Gospel, they assured believers that that there sins are fogiven.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

You tell me, how did the apostles fogive sins.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

PMPhenom said,"Please note that my comment was answering your question which was whether or not the apostles held confession. I have given you evidence of such..I await yours."

Please give me the exact verses where it says they held a roman catholic confession

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.