Vatican Review of Mel Gibson's Passion

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Father Di Noia on Mel Gibson's 'Passion': "I think that Mel Gibson's film will move people to this kind of love. Your heart would have to be made of stone for it to remain unmoved by this extraordinary film and by the unfathomable depth of divine love it endeavors to bring to life on the screen." The full interview is here: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=45863

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 13, 2003

Answers

Thank you for posting that Bill,I think this will be something special to see in the new year. Pax Christi

-- Andrew m Tillcock (drewmeister7@earthlink.net), December 14, 2003.

What does everybody think about the fact that Mel Gibson, whose The Passion movie is receiving accolades even from the Vatican, is practically the "poster boy" for the Traditional Catholic movement?

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), December 15, 2003.

Mel Gibson doesn't seem to push his 'traditional Catholicism'.. in fact many are not quite sure what he believes. He calls himself a Catholic. He obviously cares about what the Vatican thinks of his work. Maybe it will be a vehicle to bring many back to the Church.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.


Having a chapel made in your house and having a priest come to you so you can be separated from your fellow men is NOT what I'd call Catholic, but very much along the lines of what some Protestants aspire to. OTOH, if he remains Catholic enough to make a good movie, who cares WHAT he believes? The world is full of Protestants (most of whom BTW, left the church during the time of the so- called "traditional Catholic" mass, the Tridentine).

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 15, 2003.


Even if he were a dissident Catholic, like our unhappy friends Jake & Regina, it would not reflect on his film. His scripts and translations are from Catholic sources and they agree with Catholic doctrine and Tradition. He has nothing to add to the truth. His personal conduct is a private thing. He isn't intruding here with any agenda.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 15, 2003.


Having a chapel made in your house and having a priest come to you so you can be separated from your fellow men is NOT what I'd call Catholic

Your theological errors aside, I wonder how the "faith community" would react to elbowing their way through hoardes of paparazzi and the endless din of popping flashbilbs, ringing cell phones, etc. every time he came to Mass. Father Firstname would be most upset, I would think.

By having a private chapel, is he hurting the local parish, or helping it (assuming he'd go to Mass there anyway)?

-- jake (j@k.e), December 15, 2003.


Jake:
By your contempt for ''Father Firstname'' we can see where you're going. This thread isn't giving or taking anything away from the Gibson film. You want to introduce conflict into the matter for your personal aggrandisement. What Frank said is not anti-Catholic in the least. He doesn't see the reason why a practicising Catholic should cut himself off from the faithful in his community. Nor does it involve Frank's theology, which in some ways is better than yours. In fact, we know nothing about Gibson's ''theology''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 15, 2003.

Eugene,

Exactly, if he makes a good movie, his personal conduct is his own problem.

Jack,

Father Firstname would be most upset

Still with the insults to the Catholic church and putting another tack in your eternal coffin, Jake, like you need another.

I wonder how the "faith community" would react to elbowing their way through hoardes of paparazzi and the endless din of popping flashbilbs, ringing cell phones, etc. every time he came to Mass.

You know what? If he went to mass every week at the local church, there'd be photographers for months, but after awhile, they'd disappear. How many photos of Mel Gibson in mass do you think the Hollywood types want to see? It's only by hiding that you become a target for searchers. If he was your next-door neighbor, after awhile you'd get tired of looking out the window every time he takes his trash out.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 15, 2003.


Jack = Jake.

Sorry about that.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 15, 2003.


Having a chapel made in your house and having a priest come to you so you can be separated from your fellow men is NOT what I'd call Catholic,

This is not unheard of in the Catholic church. It use to be very common. However it is not the case with Mel Gipson, so is in error. Holy Family Chapel is not on his house. It is at (address deleted by Moderator). It was not build or maintained by the Diocese of LA. They are not recognized by the Vatican, so technically, they are in schism. Like the Eastern Rite Catholics before they were brought back into the fold. Let us pray for their unification with Rome.... it could happen soon. In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.



I wonder where that idea came from that the actor had a chapel in his house. I also wonder . . . why again is that wrong? I'd love to have a chapel in my house, and if I could even have the Blessed Sacrament present, that would be one of the most wonderful things I can think of happening to anyone on this planet, short of dying and going straight to heaven. Hmmm. It would be a great honor to have Mass said in a private chapel in my home.

-- Psyche +AMDG+ (psychicquill@yahoo.com), December 16, 2003.

You are a Pharisee, Jake. It isn't an attack, it's just true. I'll point out a mistake you keep making: Nobody ''hates'' you. There's an argument here with you, but not out of hatred.

We aren't ''self- hating'' either; I wonder why you say such absurd things. I love Pharisees, actually. I hope to shake them out of their bigotry, that's all. Wouldn't you help me, if I were lying face-down in the ditch of fatal errors, as I see you? You'd come to me and lend me your hand; if you're a lover of Jesus Christ.

That's all I've done here --for you. I've given you a sharp look at yourself in the mirror. I suppose it's painful, seeing the Pharisee staring back at you. But it's necessary to show you. In case you might somehow repent. There's that nagging question; ''Am I my brother's keeper?'' Yes, Jake here I am.

Kevin; you are my BROTHER. I'm expected to help you by replying whenever you start falling into errors as Jake has. But I'll never hate anyone who loves Our Divine Lord. (I'll save you from yourself, if God wills. Even if I have to beat you up!) But we'll still be brothers and friends. I'm my brother's KEEPER ! --I have a friend here that's a Pharisee. Jake. He doesn't like me; he forgot we were brothers, because of his hatred for Vatican II. (That's why I beat him up a lot. Lol!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.


/ / /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.

Kevin, the best advice that anyone can give you is this:

Begin RIGHT NOW to distrust every word spoken to you by "Joke," "Emerald," "Regina," and "Isabel." These people truly are schismatics and heretics -- full of some of the most incredible malice toward genuine Catholicism that the world has ever seen. I regret to have to tell you that it has become apparent, over the course of two years of horrible debates, that these four are tools of satan, who has planted them here to destroy this Catholic forum. Unfortunately, over-tolerance and lack of courage in some quarters has been allowing satan to succeed.

Joke just told you the following lies -- in order to mislead you and keep you from befriending us as an orthodox Catholic:
"The fact that you go to an Indult Mass is totally irrelevant as far as this forum is concerned. You will be attacked worse than I (and I go to an un-'approved' Mass) because they'll say that you're a 'termite,' eating away at the rafters of the Church from within Her own walls. Stick around, you'll see."

The fact is that you will NOT be attacked for attending an "Indult Mass." I highly respect you for being obedient in doing this, as long as you are doing it for the motive that the pope requires. You will NOT be attacked by me or any other orthodox Catholic here if you assent to all that the Church teaches. The "termite" to which "Joke" refers is a person who remains inside the visible confines of the Church, but eats away at her from within by dissenting from some part(s) of the Church's doctrines and/or by criticizing a licit form of Catholic worship, such as the newer rite of the Mass.

If you believe as you ought and speak with the required respect, you will be treated well by all true Catholics at this forum.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 16, 2003.


Mel Gibson's father, Hutton Gibson, has written a couple of books on his theory that the Church has been taken over by heretics ("The Enemy is Here" and "Is the Pope Catholic...Enough?"). This upbringing may have influenced his choice to make this movie and his earlier film, "Conspiracy Theory", in which he says,"Somebody has to lift the scab... the festering scab that is the Vatican."

-- J Biscuits (thefilthohgodthefilth@yahoo.com), December 16, 2003.


You didn't mention Gibson's Dad is a virulent anti semite. He's quite a wacko, really. I sincerely hope Mel isn't also given to those fits of insanity.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.

You didn't mention Gibson's Dad is a virulent anti semite. He's quite a wacko, really. I sincerely hope Mel isn't also given to those fits of insanity.

That was uncalled for. Mel is fighting a noble fight, out there almost by himself, against the paganism of Hollywood.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 16, 2003.


John, let's be honest. You said:

"J[a]ke just told you the following lies -- in order to mislead you and keep you from befriending us as an orthodox Catholic: "The fact that you go to an Indult Mass is totally irrelevant as far as this forum is concerned. You will be attacked worse than I (and I go to an un-'approved' Mass) because they'll say that you're a 'termite,' eating away at the rafters of the Church from within Her own walls. Stick around, you'll see."

The fact is that you will NOT be attacked for attending an "Indult Mass." I highly respect you for being obedient in doing this, as long as you are doing it for the motive that the pope requires. You will NOT be attacked by me or any other orthodox Catholic here if you assent to all that the Church teaches."

That's not a lie at all.

I go to the indult, and you've attacked me and called me a schismatic, a heretic, demon possessed, and any number of other names. Plus, I do in fact freely give my assent to all of the Church's teachings.

All of them! Including that the Pope is not only the spiritual head but also is supposed to be the temporal head of all the world as laid out clearly in the Bull Unam Sanctam, which you seem to have withheld your assent from in saying that he is only the spiritual head of, and I also give my full assent to the doctrine Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Solus, that outside the Church there can be no salvation, which you also seem to withhold your assent from.

I say that "you seem to hold your assent from" them because I cannot judge you and I cannot read your heart.

But still, you persist.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 16, 2003.


Ok, a apology is needed here because I spoke in anger in my last post, so sorry every one.

And now to clarify things a bit. I beleave there are magor problems in the New Mass, this of my own beleaving not what I have "grown up with". I started going to Institute of Christ the King Mass when I was 8, started serving soon after. Weather all of you admit it or not the New Mass is super flawed, The Bleesed Sacrament in just about all Churchs is brushed off to the side of the Church or even taken out. The Mass is said with poka bands rock bands and yes even heard of clowns and dancers on the altar. It has turned into a show. Our Lord is no longer the center of it all, he is brushed over to the side of the Church. We no longer have one Mass we have: Father Bobs, Father Charlies, and Father Jacks. Each preist says what prayers he wants to and if he is tired and wants to leave he skips things. Again this isent what i have been told this is what I went to for almost 8 years. When i was six i got up next to the altar and started playing guitar for Mass. i played cumbya and micheal row your boat ashore. I went to Catholic school till I was in 5th grade. I had in each of the 5 grades a differnt luthern "teaching me my faith". Once a month our preist showed up and "answered" our questions about our Faith. Or should I say stumble through trying to teach us. Iam not trying to say my path toward heaven is any easyer as a traditionalist or that we are with out our own problems. We are not any holyer or any smarter. But the fact of the matter is that I am not falling into any error. You can try to justify the New Mass anyway like. It is not progress it is a step back. We are being lead astray by satan. He is the wolf is sheeps clothing telling us the world is changing we need change. No you cant justify these abuses. The Mass was never changed by vatican II it was changed on its own and then the Church went along with it. You can use "the spirit of vatican II" all you like but they dident change it. This is just going to be attacked anyway so ill stop here, but there are many more things wrong with the Mass i did not meantion such as the words on consecration. I pray that your eyes will be opened and that you may see the light.

God Bless and Merry Christmas Early,

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 16, 2003.


There won't be any ''attack''. We just want for you to prove the awful things you say here. We can forgive your hopeless spelling and grammar. But not lies.

Some of the bad things you share with us may just be problems with simple communication. We can allow for them. But we don't allow for making things up to suit a prejudicial view of everything.

THIS is personal opinion, not true or objective: ''admit it or not the New Mass is super flawed,''

This is a lie: ''The Bleesed Sacrament in just about all Churchs is brushed off to the side of the Church or even taken out.''

Again, just your imagination: [Mass] said with poka bands rock bands and yes even heard of clowns and dancers on the altar,''

NOT TRUE: ''We no longer have one Mass we have Father Bobs, Father Charlies, and Father Jacks. Each preist says what prayers he wants to and if he is tired and wants to leave he skips things.''

Very obviously a case of gaping holes in your intelligence? Or, simply made up? I know now you're not able to see the truth; How else can you come here and say every priest says a different Mass, and skips any part? Why would you purposely make up something like that ? ? ?

If you hadn't added on stuff like this, I might have fallen for your story. Now I realise; that whenever we meet somebody new over the Internet, there's no accounting for their thoughts or their honesty. Many truly feeble-minded folks, especially young ones, can get to a keyboard and play games with us. We discover only by accident who is genuine and who's a fraud. You're a fraud, Kevin.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.


You must not get out much.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 16, 2003.

Oh yes iam a fruad... You have problems you are telling me it is a lie that the taberncal is moved out of the church? Iam not the fruad YOU are. I have lived the stuff and seen the stuff the froud is all you who try to defend these changes. No one will tell me these changes are for the best. Vatican II never changed these things. Vatican II even said we need to preserve that latin the the mass. Iam sorry chavez, if you think iam a lier fine. You can try to make me out as a lier all the like, you will never silence the truth, and it is the truth. Sugar coat it all you like. They are all abuses.

BTW, if you say poka masses and rock masses dont happen email me your adderss and i will send you proof. You call everythign i said lies and my opions. Prove it!

KeV

-- kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 16, 2003.


Kevin,

You've fallen in with a group of fools. In the days before the internet, you would have never even HEARD of some misguided priest performing a "poka" mass. There have been errant clerics, homosexuals, even heretic priests since the beginning of the church, they just weren't talked about over mass media.

NOW, however, some website gets every single instance of abuse in the world, puts them all together and says "SEE, the church is collapsing!" Well, it isn't. Our part of the church is comprised of men, so there will always be people who do things incorrectly. The old mass didn't change that. If you'll remember, the whole reason there are "Protestants" today is that these people protested the practices of the Catholic church when the Tridentine rite was being practiced. What mass do you think was being practiced when Martin Luther posted his theses, the Novus Ordo LOL?

Christ gave us His assurance to stay with the church. Don't listen to idiots that say the only way to be a "true" Catholic is to disobey the Pope and Magesterium! Only the Devil says that. Stay with the church, and if you see an errant priest, try and correct them. Don't lose your soul because of the errors of others.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 16, 2003.


Chavez, here is my lies!

http://user.rangenet.com/~fr-perk/

http://www.catholicglobe.org/archive/2003/0303/06/stories/story2.htm

http://www.milwaukeepolkamusic.com/gtd.html

Now i expect you to say sorry for calling me a lier Mr. Chavez. I can also get the Bulletins with the polka mass timesand dates.

As ar as Our Lord still being in the Church and not brushed off to the side. You cant even begin to argue this because it is what is done VERY VERY few Churchs still have the tabernacle still in the sactuary.

AS for the personal attacks you should beashamed of your self you call me a lier and a fruad and you offer now proof at all. I just gave you three of hundreds of places to prove that. You can sit there and call me a lier all day but anyoe with any eyes at all can prove you wrong. Just sit there and think becasue you are older then Emerald, isable, and I that you know so much and and we lie, you show your self, in your own words! "You are a Pharisee"

KeV

-- kevin wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 16, 2003.


Kevin,

I'm generally not a betting man, but I'd bet that one of the absolute LAST things Mr. Chavez would do is call you a lier and fruad.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 16, 2003.


Call me Mister Chavez, fraud! You aren't entitled to say ''chavez,'' you aren't my Boss.

Take your stupid web addresses and leave them for the trash pick-up. I'm a practicing Catholic for 66 years and counting. You haven't been in any Catholic Church I know of. You live in a mental ward! LEARN TO TELL THE TRUTH (and learn to spell, ignoramus!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.


"I'm a practicing Catholic for 66 years and counting."

That's a lot of practice.

When's the concert? lol.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 17, 2003.


I practice my religion. Maybe someday I'll get it right. Try it yourself, Saint Emmaus. We can wait for you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

Just so people know what you are referring to, from Luke Chapter 24:

13 And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them.

16 But their eyes were held, that they should not know him.

17 And he said to them: What are these discourses that you hold one with another as you walk and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleophas, answering, said to him: Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things that have been done there in these days?

19 To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people.

20 And how our chief priests and princes delivered him to be condemned to death and crucified him.

21 But we hoped that it was he that should have redeemed Israel. And now besides all this, to-day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea and certain women also of our company affrighted us who, before it was light, were at the sepulchre,

23 And not finding his body, came, saying that they had all seen a vision of angels, who say that he is alive.

24 And some of our people went to the sepulchre and found it so as the women had said: but him they found not.

25 Then he said to them: O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all things, Which the prophets have spoken.

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and so, to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.

28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.

29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.

30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.

32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?

33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were with them,

34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.

35 And they told what things were done in the way: and how they knew him in the breaking of bread.

Alright, so there's our least common denominator, Gene. Not a bad start.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 17, 2003.


Chavez, Ive been a practicing Catholic for 17 years, that doesnt mean a dang thing. You are a aragant old man. If you call me a lier and dont look at the prove you are just proving what is all ready kown. Just because you have been a Catholic for 66 years doesnt mean you know even one thing more then me. And while you are the pope and telling me iam not a Catholic, tell that to the Pope who aproved my Order of Priests and my Ex Bishop who is now the Arch Bishop of St. luis. Who on calling me a lier. I hope you have fun with your ego, it shines brightly, realy looks good on you if I do say so my self.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.


Call him Emmaus from now on. All this time posing as a good Catholic; and I finally gave him a Christian name. Emerald has a nice ring over at the jewelry counter. Too pricey for us. Emmaus is a place off the road where we break bread, not hearts. You owe me now, Bible-Thumper!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

"You've fallen in with a group of fools." As have you and chavez. BTW no one has addressed the the moving Our Lord to sides altars? What is the problem we dont want to touch this uh??

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.netq), December 17, 2003.


I wouldn't touch you with a shovel, Kevin. I don't care for dishonest punks.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.

keep goin chavez you are showing how stupid you are that you cant defend a thing after 66 years.

keV

-- kevin wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.


I'm completely perplexed. I'm not joking; really, I'm confused.

Gene, as a Catholic, what am I supposed to be doing?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 17, 2003.


And the world watches and waits for Pope Chavez the first to make his ruling.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.


Here in this post, I have seen some of the best, clever, knowledgeable, and wise catholics. I fear that Satan is slowly attacking them. Satan will wear us down. The modus operandi is he will involve us to have more and more reading of posts, intellectual thinking/tackling, apologetics, gathering more and more exhaustive church material, etc;, and in the process, he will spiritually wear us down. He will try to keep us stuck in such things by overzealousness, flattery/encouragement from friends, intellectual satisfaction, sense of elatedness/pride, etc. Thus, he will see to it that you miss your personal prayer or any spiritual reading of the Bible, blessed sacrament, etc.

When the power of God drains out because of lack of His personal presence in your life for sometime, it shows. The anger; hatred; sharp words; lack of joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.; blindly defensive of beliefs rather inquiring or facing truths; tearing apart one another, ego problems, etc. It is scandalous, and perhaps many other innocent unbelievers will see this post and will not be impressed in anyway, and will not even find it worth inquiring about our catholic faith.

Even God will judge us for not bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit and misleading so many other unwary souls. Then, all our hard work for the posts will be just forgotten. As in the gospel of Mathew during judgement, we see how Jesus says to the so called workers/evangelists of the kingdom, "I don't even know you, get away from me you evil doers."

So, let us balance our work with much prayer and nourishment of the Word, the Blessed Sacrament, and rosary, etc. The ratio of our total prayer time with our spiritual work for the day should be around 3:2 i.e., if the quality of your prayer life is really deep and good. Then, you are empowered and safely protected from evil, and divine knowledge, counsel, love, goodness, etc. will flow out as you minister wisely to all the needs of the posts with all tact and graciousness. If possible, take some time/days off from this post replenishing yourself before God. You will see the difference when you come back. May the good Lord lead us and guide us in all things.

God Bless You!!!

-- leslie john (leslie_jn@yahoo.com), December 17, 2003.


Emmie; all I said is you owe me for the Christian name I've given you. A simple thanks is enough.

Dear Leslie,
Thank you for the reminder. It's very true, letting too much steam off in unnecessary confrontations does offend God. Just pray for your brothers and sisters in the faith.

There's a simple vocation for each one of us. Some are water-carriers, some cart wood for the fire. You fill in for my deficiencies if you can. I fill in for the likes of Kevin the smart kid, Emerald fills in for --? The apostles? Oh, no. He doesn't have a calling. He prays, and maybe his vocation will become clear to him here. He might have a vocation to the mystical life. Maybe.

If only he'd be serious. He's always flippant, and Little Kevin's too serious. Between them they'll drive an old guy nuts. Pray for us.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.


Chavez, the old guy should go nuts, it serves him right for bearing false withness agenst me and calling me a lier. There are ton of polka masses said I have offered proof including sending you bullitins from churchs. You can not argue about the tabernacle being moved because anyone who ever gets out of the house (not a shut in like you) knows that very very few churchs still have it the sactuary. Yet you still dont retract for false withness agenst me. You tell me I have never been in a catholic church, or been catholic. Again more false withness agenst me, over and over. You do not offer one lick of proof agenst me, but at least I am not a senil senior citizen who never leaves my house and claims to be a practicing catholic yet heaps lies on someone else. I will Pray for you Mr. Chavez. You treat it like it is a funny game just to be brushed away, when in fact it is a sin on your part, one for beari false withness agenst me and two for trying to invoke me to anger and making me sin as well. I guess your 66 years of being a Catholic never teached you a thing if I have to tell you these things. Get out more you arogant old man.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.


Kevin,

You've said something interesting, along the line of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin".

There are ton of polka masses

How much does a mass weigh? I've never heard this asked before, and would be interested to hear your response. Is it 1000 pounds, indicating 2 polka masses take place, one ounce meaning 32000 polka masses take place, or what?

How many Catholic churches in the U.S. offer polka masses?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 17, 2003.


I dont have a exact number but i would venteur to say at least thousands. I hear of them all the time. Have seen at least 3 in my own town, and many across Wisconsin, and many inother states.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@harter.net), December 17, 2003.


Let Kevin rave. He'll know someday what real sins are, and what arguing with someone ignorant is. I ''bore false witness'' becase I can't tell even if he's a boy or a crude old man himself. Anybody can bad-mouth the Catholic Church from the safety of his Mom & Dad's home a thousand miles from you. When you tell him to grow up, he'll make fun of your age. Not your wisdom, because he can't understand anything yet. He's green.

But he learned to insult everybody. That's what punks learn from TV sitcoms. How to be verbally aggressive. --So-- fool that I am; I spoke to Kev in his own style. Now he's having the kid tantrum. He can be abusive, since he's safe from discovery.

Don't worry, Kev. I won't hunt for you. Get down! Tell me something bold.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 17, 2003.


You realy do think be just because you are older you know so much more then me. I dont bad mouth the church, you still can not address the issue at hand besides calling me a little green kid. Answer the question Mr. Chavez you are starting to act like jeanie, if yuo dont have a answer you dodge the question. How do you justify moving the tabernacle off to the side of the church? I dont want a because thats what vatican II told us to do because they dident, all i ask is a simple answer then you can drop back into your little ego and injoy the rest of your life. This should not be to much to ask after all the insults you heeped on me for being younger then you and hiding behinde my parents. Just for your information Iam trying to finish my school so i can leave home, one reason being my dad is as arogant as you and think because it says in the bible that he is head of the household me can tell my mother and i anything he wants us to do. When ever how ever, no matter how stupid it is. He wont listen to any of our priests or anyone else because hes 55 and he knows everything there is to know about the world. You are no different then him Mr. Chavez, a 66 year old child.

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 17, 2003.


leslie john hits the pin square on the head. He's totally, 100% correct.

The only caveat I would add to it is that the truth he states could also be abused by the evil one if we use it as an excuse to hide the hard truths and more painful spiritual battles. The result would perhaps to be deceived into thinking everything's fine and that we are not really engaged in what Scripture calls a conflict not with flesh and blood, but demons:

For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

Not hunger, disease, ozone depletion and liberal democrats, or Sadam Hussein.

The hard truths still have to be confronted in charity. The hardest truth is that we all die and will either spend all eternity in Heaven with the Blessed or burning in Hell forever with the damned. This is no time to be looking to be blessed in the here and now and feeling good about ourselves.

God saw fit to let there be black people and white people, the rich and the poor, the Eastern Rites and the Western Rite. The World synthesizes them to their detriment, but God would synthesize them in Truth. The post conciliar Church finds itself in an intense battle to hear the call of God when everything around them blurs the distinctions in their minds between the right and the wrong path and good & evil. The closer one gets to God, the more intense becomes the mimicry of Satan in his pride to wrest the place of God and to bring to ruin God's elect, if that were possible.

Distinctions have to be made and the job of discerning good from evil, which is incredibly difficult anymore, still has to be done. Simple people are the safest, but not everyone is gifted with simplicity.

There's a big distinction between there being many paths to God vs. there being many paths to the door of the Catholic Church, which alone can lead to God.

This is why I like the Blessed Mother, and I believe in these times she reaches her hand to us and that we ought to take it. She offers us humility as the solution to confusion and sin. I beleive it was her guardian angel who said to the demon:

"Who is like God?"

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 17, 2003.


'It Is as It Was' Mel Gibson's "The Passion" gets a thumbs-up from the pope.

This is what the pope said: "It is as it was."

Peggy Noonan has an interesting column on it. http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110004442

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 17, 2003.


Thanks, Gene. I'll give you Christmas present and take a vacation, but I'll be back on January 1st. I've got this New Year's resolution to combat the enemy of the Church; it's in my contract in the fine print. I need to go buy more BB's.

-- Emmaus (emerald1@cox.net), December 17, 2003.

I'll give you Christmas present and take a vacation, but I'll be back on January 1st.

Good idea. I, too, will give you all the gift of my absence, and I'll even extend it until the Feast of the Epiphany, in order to properly prepare for the coming of the Christ Child, and to properly celebrate His arrival.

Blessed Christmas to you all.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 17, 2003.


Jmj

Good day, Kevin. I just got back to this thread after about 24 hours, so I see that satan has succeeded in keeping you and others occupied, wasting several hours on a useless battle that the forum's moderator should have prevented long ago via deletions and bannings. Alas! How pitiful, the way this once glorious forum is being dragged to its demise! I see that a couple of shoulda-been-banned SoBs are going to be away briefly -- but not long enough to allow the forum to heal from the wounds those minions of satan have inflicted. 'Twould be nice if the forum could move to another URL in their absence -- or if a new and gutsy moderator could take over and ban them, once and for all.

Kevin, I need to go over parts of what I told you yesterday. You're not going to like it, because I fully support Mr. Chavez against you. Let's start ...

Yesterday, I wrote: "Begin RIGHT NOW to distrust every word spoken to you by 'Joke,' 'Emerald,' 'Regina,' and 'Isabel.' These people truly are schismatics and heretics -- full of some of the most incredible malice toward genuine Catholicism that the world has ever seen."

If your eyes have been open, Kevin, you have seen two of them prove my point on this very thread. One of them, Paul "Emerald" Moeller, with his phony piety and his slick and oily manipulation of carefully tailored language, tried to make you think that he believes all that the Church requires him to believe. (The fact that he does not -- and the fact that he would go to the SSPX, if he could not attend an "indult Mass" -- shows that he is a schismatic and heretical "termite.") He also tried to deceive you by pretending that I don't believe certain things that the Church teaches. Forget it. Don't fall for his deceptions.

Yesterday, I wrote: "The fact is that you will NOT be attacked for attending an 'Indult Mass.' I highly respect you for being obedient in doing this, as long as you are doing it for the motive that the pope requires."

Notice that last phrase: "... as long as you are doing it for the motive that the pope requires." Sadly, I have learned from reading your wildly fanatical posts that you are not attending the "indult Mass" for acceptable motives. As a result, I no longer "highly respect" you for attending the "indult Mass." If you keep up your unjustifiable words and behavior here, I will have no respect for you at all, except the bare minimum that one must have for a fellow human being. You cannot be a Catholic in good standing and criticize the newer rite of the Mass as I saw you doing, above. Like Moeller, you may be a schismatic at heart. If the "indult Mass" were not available, would you go to an older-rite Mass celebrated without your bishop's approval -- as "Joke," "Regina," and "Isabel" do, and as "Emerald" would? Or would you, in that situation, attend the newer rite of the Mass (or an Eastern rite), like every good, humble, true Catholic should?

God bless you.
John
PS: Kevin, we never got around to talking about whether or not you assent to all that the Church teaches in the Catechism, in the documents of Vatican II, and in the pope's writings. I pray that you don't join the four dingdongs I mentioned earlier as a "cafeteria Catholic," picking and choosing which Catholic doctrines you believe and disbelieve.

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 17, 2003.


Thank you pope G.F. for telling me what my motives are for going to the traditinal mass. Nice to see that you are a mind reader. I never had any respect for any of you that attacks fellow catholics that go to the traditial mass of our forfathers. Again you act as pope and tell us what we can go toand what we cant.

You can talk to the screen all you want from know on because it is not worth talking to old men who think they know everything in the world, I have no respect for them. humm where have i heard that before:P

KeV

-- Kevin Wisniewski (Kez38spl@charter.net), December 18, 2003.


It's apparent how badly we can overestimate the capacity of a mind to learn when we study Kevin's replies. There's no attempt to communicate. There's a self-centered opinion, and whoever challenges that is already outside of consideration. This is the mind of a fanatic.

I must say this is the only baby fanatic in my long experience. But one thing consoles me, as a Catholic. Babies can't have much outside influence, can they? Will this Boy Wonder lead others astray? A presumptuous Catholic Boy Wonder? He thinks he's the Christ Child! Ha ha ha!

We never know what to expect here these days!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 18, 2003.


Jmj

Kevin, you really need to work on exercising your brain muscle.

You just told me: "Thank you pope G.F. for telling me what my motives are for going to the traditinal mass. Nice to see that you are a mind reader."

(My initials are "J.F." -- not "G.F.".) What are you talking about -- "mind reader"? What I told you was this: "Sadly, I have learned from reading your ... posts that you are not attending the 'indult Mass' for acceptable motives."
In other words, I didn't try to read your mind. I saw in your posts that your reasons for attending the "indult Mass" were contrary to what the pope had in mind. Your reasons are expressed in these words and semi-words:
"I beleave there are magor problems in the New Mass ... Weather all of you admit it or not the New Mass is super flawed ... You can try to justify the New Mass anyway like. It is not progress it is a step back. We are being lead astray by satan. ... The Mass was never changed by vatican II it was changed on its own and then the Church went along with it. ... there are many more things wrong with the Mass i did not meantion such as the words on consecration."

Kevin, as a Catholic who wants to attend the older rite of the Mass, the Church forbids you to say things similar to what I just quoted. Here is why I say this ...

In the 1984 Indult document ("Quattuor abhinc annos"), the Vatican stated: "... priests and faithful ... [by means of a] letter of request to be presented to their own bishop, may be able to celebrate Mass by using the Roman Missal according to the 1962 edition [so-called Tridentine Rite], but under the following conditions: ... That it be made publicly clear beyond all ambiguity that such priests and their respective faithful in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970."

Thus, criticism of the newer rite of the Mass disqualifies someone from attending an Indult Mass. (I'm talking about criticism of the rite itself, not criticism of liturgical abuses perpetrated by priests, etc. -- which criticsm is legitimate.)

Moreover, in the pope's 1985 document, "Ecclesia Dei," he added that those wanting to attend the older rite should be "Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition." In other words, you must attend only because of this positive "attach[ment]" to the older rite, not because of some negative detachment from the newer rite.

Kevin, you also told me:
"I never had any respect for any of you that attacks fellow catholics that go to the traditial mass of our forfathers. Again you act as pope and tell us what we can go to and what we cant."

So quickly you forget what I said two messages ago! I never said what you "can go to and what [you] can't". That is for the Church to say. In fact, I told you that I admired you for going to the "Indult Mass" (rather than to a Mass celebrated by a schismatic priest). The only thing I added was that you needed to be doing it for the right reason -- which you are not. Now, as an act of humility, penance, and obedience, you must go back to the newer rite until such time as you cease to disrespect it or to doubt its validity.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 19, 2003.


This is a wonderful lesson for Kevin; even though he may never come back to read anything. I suspect he wasn't actually reading a single opposing post before, since the poor kid seems practically illiterate, sem-literate or dislexic.

But every one of our pro-Mass-of-Trent elitists ought to read it, and not ignore the finger pointing directly at their disobedience and Kevin-like fanaticism. In their adamant pride they're showing even less intelligence than Kevin did. They have no excuse.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 19, 2003.


Thanks, Gene. I will have the quotations and argumentation handy to re-post, in case [God forbid!] they return next year. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.

I like Mel Gibson as a person and an actor. I support and like the Passion of the Christ which he is bringing to the world which will hopefully awaken people and unite them,not divide them. I do however have some problems with viewing Mel Gibson as a Catholic in good standing. My comments are not to judge him but to explain.

A schismatic is not a Catholic or at the very least, a Catholic in good standing united with the universal Church and accepting of the Pope as temporal and spiritual leader of the Church on earth. People make the comment that Mel's church is more Catholic than the ones under the direction and leadership of a bishop. This is certainly true to an extent. As a leader in the church and responsible for 4 church's and 2 schools, I have witnessed heresy and schism from clergy and leaders who were validly ordained and theoretically in communion with the Church. However, anyone, who knowingly alters, changes, dissents from, and rebukes truths of the faith and the leadership of the pope, even if validly installed, are heretics and schismatics themselves. It is not the building, it is not the town or the bishop, it is the individual and their adherence to the teachings of a particular church that matter, not the titles. People must rethink or redefine their acceptance of Gibson's church when compared to a "legal" parish led by a heretic. They are both the same. Separated and schismatic.

Mel GIbson should not base his faith on a language. It is not the language that makes the Mass. I too come from a pre-Vatican II upbringing and entered the seminary when everything was still in Latin. I can still recite the Mass in Latin. But Latin is not going to get me into heaven. Participation in the Mass is. The words of consecration are the mass, in whatever language it happens to be. If we do not trust the pope or stay in union in him or do not believe in the authenticity of the pope in "the chair" than we deny the protection of the Holy SPirit as promised by Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew 16:18. Mel Gibson should be worshiping with a community of believers in a approved parish, and the things he disagrees with,he should work to either change or question from a valid position and not "escape" as he is to a comfort zone of worship based on traditions that are not the same traditions that ST. Paul told the people to "hold fast" to. He worships with all the trappings of Catholicism but I am afraid it is not Catholic as he would wish. I pray for him to return to the "mainline" Church and offer his services to reawaken the faith among those in this country still sitting on the fence and need direction.

-- Dcn. Darcy (dtrov@netscape.net), February 19, 2004.


Deacon Darcy, most of what you say is helpful and true. Two exceptions -----


1. ... anyone, who knowingly alters, changes, dissents from, and rebukes truths of the faith and the leadership of the pope, even if validly installed, are heretics and schismatics themselves.

The Catechism provides this guidance in the use of the terms like "heresy" and "schism," which should not be used without great care (since Gibson, while almost certainly schismatic, may not be a heretic) -----

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."


2. Latin is not going to get me into heaven. Participation in the Mass is.

The mere "participation in the Mass" will not get anyone into heaven. Even people with no faith can "participate in the Mass." Even people with faith but no good works can "participate in the Mass." Even people who have faith and good works, but who lack the state of sanctifying grace, can "participate in the Mass."

-- (Not@Gibson's.Fan), February 20, 2004.


So John, 'ya goin' to the movie?

-- jake (j@k.e), February 21, 2004.

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