Iraqis dancing in the streets again, how about that?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

Well, well, well...

The Iraqis are dancing in the streets again, thanks to the USA.

Let's see, our laundry list of "to-do's" in order to achieve moral legitimacy for our "war" in Iraq was: avoid Armageddon (check), avoid enivonmental catastrophy (check), avoid famine and enourmous loss of civilian life (check), avoid wide-spread loss of infrastructure (check), find Saddam Hussein and his sons (check!) and find the WMDs: (still pending).

Now for those who considered our invasion and liberation of Iraq to be immoral and a "disaster" the image of Iraqis dancing in the streets last April was a real downer. Now they're dancing again and isn't it amazing!

In 8 months we've restored water, electricity, and commerce to pre-war levels DESPITE sabotage and 50% of the West pooh-poohing our every effort while carrying water for the terrorists.

In 8 months we've SPENT money rather than rob Iraq of riches... and discovered 300,000 victims buried in mass graves, widespread tourture chambers and rape-rooms, and millions of stories of brutal repression going back 35 years.

All the doom-and-gloomers and all the critics notwithstanding, we have succeeded so far in keeping terrorism at bay, not a single major domestic terror attack (yet, thank God), democracy and freedom in Afganistan and now Iraq, a booming US (and world) economy which will help drain the swamps of poverty in the 3rd world... and ever advancing moral victories on behalf of the unborn, new borns, children, families and religious believers everywhere.

How about that! Winning in the war on terror AND a turn around in the economy (which helps float all boats and reduce poverty and human misery)!

I'd say so far so good! Hurrah for the US of A! :-) God bless America - because of all major world powers...we're the only one who has actually DONE anything for the promotion of goodness and justice.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 15, 2003

Answers

Yeah, they are dancing! And our soldiers continue to die like rats every single day. How about that?

-- Oleg Bustong (Olebustong@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.

Hey - in your bosting did you forget the English soldiers? We're not the only one!

-- Walter Beckensmith (Plain@english.com), December 15, 2003.

I agree with you, Joe, of course.

It may not have been on everyone's "to-do list," but one could add this:
"expose Iraq as a promoter of international terrorism (some facts now released, others under development [including possible training of M. Atta by A. Nidal inside Iraq])"

Finding WMDs would be good, but doesn't seem likely (nor necessary, of course). Potential reasons they may never be found, despite existence right up to 2003?
1. Although phenomenally lethal, they are compact and need very little room to hide. Maybe they could all fit in one "rat-hole" (or a few) the size of Saddam Hussein's hideaway -- nearly impossible to find without a tipster.
2. No tipsters to tell about where they are buried. Crews who buried them (or took them out of country?) may have been subsequently executed at SH's order, leaving no witnesses of the burial place.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 15, 2003.


JF! You could write novels! Much more rewarding that this forum.

-- Kopper Frank (Point@shot.at), December 15, 2003.

Really? American soldiers are being "killed like rats"? Let's see...210,000 troops in the area, and an estimated 5,000 strong force of Baathists and foreign terrorists are actively trying to kill Americans as fast as they can... but only manage to net 1 or 2 every other day...and most of their recent victims are fellow Iraqis...

In an average city of 210,000 people you'd have about as many deaths - without a big-bad-terror machine involved. So the numbers don't impress me. Always a tragedy to loose a good man to enemy action...or to automobile accidents, but at least they died for a just cause - the liberation of a nation from tyrany and the promotion of authentic human rights...

So I'd say the "threat" of these yahoos or "resistance fighters" is pretty low - not something to be terrified by or enough to make us all go boo-hoo and run for mommy's skirts.

Of course, the Left never counts the cost in blood when one of their missions is underway, such as the "liberation" of Angola, Cuba, or the worker's paradise... and the Left wasn't all shook up by the Million or so Cambodian and Million or so Vietnamese civilians killed by the Commies... why should they care? They were "for peace" so that makes all the victims of their good intentions non-existant doesn't it?

Have you EVER heard or seen a LEFT-WING peace-nik apologize or acknowledge any mistake given the CONSEQUENCES following the Viet-nam war? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

And yet all the doom-and-gloom they predicted would infallibly result in the US liberation of Iraq came true: massive civilian death, massive environmental damage, massive social injustice...continuing until this very day! And not a peep of apology from the Left!

In the meanwhile the Right is RIGHT and actively promoting real liberty and real progress (on ever level imaginable) in Iraq and around the world.

If the ending of a brutal tyrant and the promotion of political liberty and economic development (eliminating poverty by creating jobs) is a "bad" thing unworthy of suffering or dying for, then what pray tell is a worthy cause?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 15, 2003.



The capture of Saddam will give Bush a boost in overall popularity from now until February. I believe from 15-25%. Saddam was evil. I think Bush deserves it.

It is unfortunate that at one time the CIA and Jrs' father supported him in their war against Iran in the 1980s. A mistranslation from the US ambassador gave Saddam the excuse he needed to invade Kuwait.

The rest is history.

Then comes tax time. Until April taxes would be in everyone's minds.

In Spanish there is a saying, "muerto el perro se acabo la rabia". Saddam is still alive. He could be a distraction in the long run.

Plus, Bush cannot have an excuse to keep troops there for a longer period. The generation that suffered under Saddam is little by little passing away.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), December 15, 2003.


Don't forget the poor Australians there as well!!! Just because it is a small amount doesn't mean they haven't contributed. There are still 850 of them there.

-- Anon (none@none.com), December 15, 2003.

i wont be dancing until they get the real prize osama bin laudin dont forget, thats the real reason we Americans went to war bush is doing a good job covering that fact up dont you think i mean most people forgot about that already dont get me wrong, i will still vote republican (seems to be the moral thing to do)

-- joshua hlopko (yoshi_JT_42@hotmail.com), December 16, 2003.

Some people never learn. In every occupation there will be some people who try to prosper by licking the boots of invaders. The ignorance of americans about islam and arab culture is astounding. Joe why dont you go to a library in a large city with a wide selection of books on islam and arab culture and try to learn something. The problem with america is that most people repeat the nonsense they hear on telelivision and read in the newspapers. Mindless repetition of the messianic rhetoric of the neoconservative warmongers will not change reality.

-- J. Fernandes (goananda@hotmail.com), December 16, 2003.

Porque no voy a una bibliotecha? No voy por que he leido docenas de libros en Espanol, Italiano, e Ingles sobre los musulmanes y su religion. Tambien conoci personalmente muchos Iraqis en Detroit cuyos papas concieron a Saddam y su gente....

I've read quite a number of books about Islam and the Arabs, and I'm not convinced that the US Military is naive or stupid about what's going on... maybe lots of Joe-six pack American liberals are naive and stupid and can't find Iraq (or Mexico) on the world map, but I'm not your average Joe.

So before you judge my level (nivel) of education and erudition as an ad hominem substitute for thinking and having REASONS for holding your opinions, you'd better start quoting some books yourself!

We trounced the Taliban in Afganistan in a couple of weeks when it took the Soviets years! We invaded and finished off Iraq's million man army in 30 days and have now brought Iraqis back to pre-war levels of food, electricity, water, jobs, etc. and we're doing all this while still fighting terrorists.

If you can't give credit when credit is due...when you can't allow yourself to be HAPPY by any good news... when political calculations about how this will affect November 2004 cloud everything in your mind... that's when you know you're wrong and probably sick.

I'm HAPPY that Saddam has been captured! I'm HAPPY that the Dow hit 10,000, that UNEMPLOYMENT IS GOING DOWN, that the Housing market is booming, that the price of energy and raw materials is going down...which will create more jobs and eliminate poverty. I'm HAPPY that I've got a big tax rebate coming...and I'm nowhere near being "rich". I'm HAPPY that Partial-birth abortion is outlawed and that the environmental terrorists responsible for the deadly wildfires out west have lost their bid to cause MORE damage to the environment...

I'm HAPPY that Iraqis now have a chance to be free...and I'm HAPPY that the democrats - the American racist socialist party in favor of super-rights for gays and abortionists but strict federal repression for everyone else, looks to be trounced in the coming elections.

35 years of injustice has come to an end in the Middle East. Iraqis danced in the streets for joy. If you can't bring yourself to share their joy...what must that say about you and your values?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 16, 2003.



looks to be trounced in the coming elections

Bush 1 had 90% approval ratings in January '91 and went down to a humiliating defeat in November '92. The 30 day Gulf War (of which I am a veteran) exceeded the Americal attention span by a good 28 days.

Republicans have an uncanny knack for snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. Let's hope Bush 2 can apply the hard lessons of his father's term an use them to his avantage, because the Democratic contenders are all morons.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 16, 2003.


I remember those days well... But the difference is, we're climbing OUT of a recession and have been for over a year... not going into one...

And whereas Bush 1 "broke his promise" with a tax (which the Democratic held congress begged him to "for the sake of the country"), Bush 2 has given us Tax CUTS to be phased in YEAR AFTER YEAR... so this July 04, lots of us will be getting adjusted tax return checks from the IRS, thanks to good 'ol Bush 2.

The third difference is the 9/11 effect. In 1992 we were witnessing "the end of history" with the fall of the USSR. Suddenly we had "the peace dividen" and foreign policy ceased being as important as it was in the Cold War. There was no evil empire left to worry about so Americans thought they could kick back and elect a Bubba who promised to party-hardy.

Now we have a more sober generation who realizes that history never ended and evil empires continue to grow... and we see more and more evidence that the Democrats really are the party of elite snobs, totally depraved sychopants who think killing a partially delivered baby is OK and "not a moral issue"... there's been just too many immoral and truly illiberal policies ennacted by the Dems... for most Americans to think that they care about anything other than their own power and a couple of minority special interest groups who - last I checked weren't at ALL CONCERNED about the rest of us.

Finally we have the rise of an alternative Media... not alot, not even 50/50 parity. But in 1992 all you had was a couple of radio shows. Now you have FOX and the Internet. (ahem).

You have LEXUS/NEXUS... the Democrats can't get away with their lies and half-truths as much as they did, such as when they talked down the economy and lied about the economic numbers throughout 1992 when the recession actually ended in 1991! Now when they try to create urban myths, everyone can sit on their search engine and find out if that's so...

So, I think that while the whole coming year will be full of vitriol and hate-mongering on the part of the Democrats, and they'll probably get violent and try assassination attempts or car bombings here just to mar civil peace... Bush 2 will win, land-slide and a mandate to first of all put a lot of good judges on the courts, and clean house ideologically.

Then in 2008 you'll see a Condi Rice vs. Hillary showdown...

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 16, 2003.


Looks as if it is Mr. Fernandes trying to snatch defeat here for the U.S. But he can't.

Not that we should gloat. I admire President Bush always being modest about his own performance, even though if he wished he could easily call attention to himself. It would be easy to make sure his representatives in the White House got out all the flattering details, and/or congratulated him in public. But he always gives credit to others, and to our armed forces. That's a mark of class, to me. We should all be thankful he's our leader in these most dangerous times. God bless him; God be with our men & women in uniform! Amen.



-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.


Joe? Gene? I'm...I'm...agreeing with you.

Shame that we can find common ground only in something as stupid as politics.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 16, 2003.


Jake:,br>There is common ground, we are both Catholics. You feel you're a faithful one, and I feel that way. Nothing really should separate us; what separates us is intolerance. You love what I love too: the Mass of Trent. If you loved my Holy Mass as well, I would not feel you're intolerant. But you've denigrated it all too often.

So where is the intolerance? When have I run down the Holy Tridentine Mass? If it were poltics, you could call me intolerant; I lean to the right. NEVER to the left.

But we're both on the right about God. That's common ground. I PRAY for you and Regina, so I haven't been intolerant. I also pray for the good bishops of my Church, and our Holy Father. Prayer is the MOST IMPORTANT sign of faith, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 16, 2003.



Jake, my post wasn't disagreeing with yours...but just running along with your idea. I don't see how I was being contrarian at all.

Peace.

(don't we all just want peace?)

Joe

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 16, 2003.


If I was an Iraqui, I wouldn't have trusted Saddam was gone until he was GONE. The stakes would be too high for my family. Now, they can celebrate.

I doubt if they can become a democracy like ours though, their culture just seems too alien (like with the Taliban not educating women, hanging people, etc.). OTOH, they were pretty progressive some years ago, in Iraq.

On Bush, what impressed me the most was his Thanksgiving act of going over to Iraq to be with the soldiers. He might not be a super- genius, but he seems to be a hard worker to tries to do the right thing. We as a country could do MUCH worse.

Not to mention the taxes thing, anyone who lets you keep more of your own money isn't all bad, and I intend to kick some of my savings back to him in a contribution towards his next election.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 16, 2003.


I know. Isn't that what I said?

-- jake (j@k.e), December 16, 2003.

"Then in 2008 you'll see a Condi Rice vs. Hillary showdown..."

That's a damn good argument against birth control. Thanks.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 16, 2003.


don't you mean FOR birth control?

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 16, 2003.

lol! I guess it works either way. I didn't think of that. Good catch.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 16, 2003.

don't you mean FOR birth control?

Don't you mean NFP?

Oh, wait.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 17, 2003.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ