Don (Pornography)

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THE SECRET ENEMY Looking at pornography is a private thing, right? It’s not like it’s gonna hurt anybody. Without knowing it, Jason was trapped in a lie—that is, until his world collided with the truth.

Fiction by Sue Cameron

THE FIRST TIME IT HAPPENED WAS JUST BEFORE JASON TURNED 10. A neighborhood friend, a boy named Joey, led a group of friends into his garage.

“Want to see something?” he asked reaching behind the workbench. “These are my dad’s. He keeps them out here so Mom won’t know.”

Joey held up a porn magazine. “Look at this,” he said, his voice filled with enticement. Jason had never seen a nude woman before—and felt his face flush and his eyes close against intruding into another’s privacy. He felt an urgency to run, to get out of there—and yet there was also a strong pull to stay and behold.

Exclamations, whistles and laughter from the other boys urged Jason to take a peek. Gasoline fumes rose from a pile of old rags stuffed into a corner of the darkened garage. The smell assaulted Jason’s nostrils; the temptation grabbed hold of him like a silent attacker. One look won’t hurt. Jason slowly opened his eyes. First he looked down, concentrating on the oil stains under his jogging shoes.

The next moment he looked up and scanned the glossy pictures. His eyes drank in the images. His pulse raced. Heat filled his face, as a fire erupted inside him. Those pictures, of nameless bodies—women without personality, without identity, without personhood—burned into him like a branding iron, and so began the searing of his soul.

THIRTY YEARS LATER

The house was dark when Jason returned from his business trip, which wasn’t a surprise since it was well after midnight. The real surprise awaited him when he walked in the door and turned on the hall light. Everything felt strange. Something seemed wrong. Jason put down his suitcase and made his way slowly through the living area to the kitchen.

It’s too quiet—too clean.

His eyes swept across the spotless countertops; no mail stacked up, no school papers, no sign of life. Within minutes Jason discovered the reason everything was so still—the house was empty. His family had left him. His hand trembled as he read the note he found on his pillow:

Jason—

There is no easy way to leave your husband of 16 years. But I cannot stay. There have been too many unexplained late nights, when the children and I have waited to eat dinner until nearly bedtime, hoping you would come home to us.

And too many broken promises. Last week when you missed Kyle’s Little League game, he didn’t cry as he had in the past. He simply shrugged his shoulders saying, “I knew he wouldn’t come.”

You haven’t been there for any of us—especially me. Your business trips are often extended without explanation and when I call your hotel room in the middle of the night, you aren’t there. I’m tired of the lying. I no longer trust you or what you say and do. I’m done making excuses for why we have gone bankrupt twice with thousands of dollars charged on our credit cards, which I don’t recognize and you can’t justify.

You refused to get counseling for your addiction to pornography or its related activities—although I’ve begged you to go with me. I think you love it more than anything else in the world. It’s made you demand things of me, which make me feel used and shameful. The last straw was yesterday when my doctor insisted I be tested for a sexually transmitted disease. I cried and told him, “But I was a virgin when I married and have been completely faithful to my husband.”

Still, you deny the fact that your behaviors are destroying the rest of us and want to go on living as if we are a happy Christian family. I can’t do it any longer. For my health and the sake of our children, we’re leaving.

I loved you once with a love I thought was unquenchable, but little by little it has eroded. You are not the man I married, so full of godly passion and joy—and I do not know who you have become. It is my sincere hope and prayer that you will finally get the help you need.

—Janis

Jason noticed the smeared ink. Tears? It sounds so cold, so calculated. Why did she cry?

Maybe for the same reason he sat heavily on the couch, with his head in his hands. Both their dreams had ended. Here he was, just over 40, losing everything dear to him. I always thought I’d grow up and have a happy family.

THE SECRET KILLER

Perhaps the other young men who were in the garage that day walked away without giving the encounter another thought. But Jason found he could think of little else. He was haunted—during class when he was supposed to be learning, in bed when he should have been sleeping, even, to his great shame, in church when he was trying to worship the Lord. But he did not speak of it—not to anyone. Not his father, or brother, or youth pastor and most certainly never to the One who could have released him. He did not dare to discuss his struggle with Jesus. For although he loved the Lord and knew Jesus loved him, Jason believed that this secret must never be brought into the light.

And in the darkness, its power grew. Day by day, year by year. At first Jason struggled with great guilt and made passionate promises to never repeat the offense. But in time, he stopped feeling guilty and he believed the lie that pornography is victimless.

• • • Sitting alone on the sofa, Jason didn’t need to ponder what had destroyed his dreams, his family and the man he was supposed to be. He knew. But until this moment he had never admitted to himself, nor anyone else, that pornography held the power to rob a man or woman of everything. It stirred a longing strong enough to suck each victim into its grip by promising comfort and satisfaction. It wasn’t much different than being a drug addict. Jason’s mind, life and soul were consumed with the desire for more—and he knew that he would not stop until his raging passion was quenched, at least for the moment.

• • • By the time Jason graduated from high school he had learned how to live two lives: one secret, one public. He became essentially two people. One he thought no one saw. The other was the young man that everyone knew and liked. He went to college, went to church and even got a part-time job. He graduated from college and fell in love. He married Janis and promised to be faithful to her for his whole life.

He never even considered that each encounter with a voice on the phone, a glossy picture in a magazine or an image on his computer screen affected his marriage as if he had brought a flesh-and-blood woman into his marriage bed. And although his body was technically pure when he married, his mind and soul had long before been polluted by forbidden relationships.

He did not realize that like white cotton soaking up black ink, his heart would slowly absorb more and more poison until one day his whole perspective would be darkened. So the real Jason was replaced by a great pretender who said the right words, smiled at the correct times and became an expert at playing his part.

For years he fooled most everyone, even himself. But bit by bit, the rottenness spread decay to each important relationship in his life. In time the stench became obvious to everyone around him, but Jason was like a person with foul breath who is unaware of the odor.

FACING THE TRUTH

“Oh, God,” Jason cried from the sofa in his living room in his empty house. “Help me.”

You must bring it to me. Bring it into the open. Let it go and turn back to Me, the true voice answered.

Jason hesitated, and in that moment he heard the other voice. She walked out on you, Jason. Deserted you while you were out working hard to earn money to feed her! Just rejected you like a piece of trash. You poor, poor man. You deserve love, don’t you? Everyone needs comfort when they face hard times. I know a place—

Yes, I’ve always provided for my family, haven’t I? Jason reasoned. I don’t deserve this kind of treatment.

Jason, the true voice called. Come to Me. Trust Me.

“Lord, I can’t let go—”

You can’t or you won’t?

“I want to—”

Do it. Let it go. Turn away.

“Maybe tomorrow, Lord, when I feel stronger. But tonight I hurt so bad, and I feel so alone.”

Come to Me now, Jason. I will give you comfort; I will set you free.

But Jason didn’t hear the promise; he had stopped listening. He stood, walked past his suitcase and out the front door. A moment later he was driving toward a place where he knew he would find what he craved. His urgency and its intensity were translated into speed as he raced down the road into the blackness of the night. His mind was distracted as he began to think about what awaited him.

That is why Jason didn’t see the red light and didn’t notice the silver SUV. He never heard the squeal of brakes. He never saw the look of horror on the woman’s face, as her car slammed violently into his, knocking it off the road, down the embankment and into the river.

No, he saw none of it. But, an instant later, Jason did stand at the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.



-- Has happened! (anyplace@anywhere.com), December 26, 2003

Answers

Response to Don

So do you agree that pornography is no big deal or IS a big deal? Can you see this happening as part of the big picture (circle of life) or as one isolated case?

Replies requested

-- Has happened or not (anyplace@anywhere.com), December 26, 2003.


Response to Don

I agree that pornography is a big deal...

Has anyone really wondered why Women are treated in the manner they are being treated? Why men and women are more confused today about relationships then they were 2000 years ago... Why certain rules of relationships for better or wosrt is being thrown out the window, because TV shows and movies show people fornicating at will...

This has got to stop to bring back family values.

-- . (anyplace@anywhere.com), December 26, 2003.


Response to Don

Yes, because everyone who looks at porn will become deadbeat fathers and cheating husbands who die in car crashes. Except for the 98% that don't. Get a life. The fact that you took the time to write something as stupid as that means that you're in no position to be criticizing the way other people live their lives.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 26, 2003.

Response to Don

Quit pointing fingers only at men--women are equally at fault here as well....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 27, 2003.

Response to Don

Yes, because everyone who looks at porn will become deadbeat fathers and cheating husbands who die in car crashes. Except for the 98% that don't. Get a life. The fact that you took the time to write something as stupid as that means that you're in no position to be criticizing the way other people live their lives.

Actually AntiBush, this is another time when you assuem your liberal philoosphy is right and everypone else is wrong base don nohting at all. I am a Pychology student, and oen of the thigns wr learned was that, in repeated stucies, constant exposeure to Pornography DOES indeed contribute to a lessenign in respect for sex parners, aggression towards women, and vipelnt Crime.

You wont beleive me of course. I am an idiopt who doesnt knwo what hes talkign abut, but how about visiting these links.

http://www.protectkids.com/effects/

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/toxic.html

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/chunter/porn_effects.html

http://www.netspeed.com.au/ttguy/refs2.htm

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0388_Effects_of_Pornograp.html

http://www.nationalcoalition.org/pornharm.phtml?ID=102

Or you can jujst ignore them and continue to think that 98% of refular Porn users suffer no ill effects......wjhichever.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2003.



Response to Don

I looked at all of those sites. They all said the same thing--people who look at pornography become violent rapists and child abusers who see women as sex toys and think rape is cool. Only one of them offered anything to back it up (and it did offer a well-researched record of scientific studies). Even that didn't prove much. Not one of the sites gave any figures that said that more than 2% of people who watch pornography turn out like that.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 27, 2003.

Response to Don

I looked at all of those sites. They all said the same thing--people who look at pornography become violent rapists and child abusers who see women as sex toys and think rape is cool.

Once again exageratinvg to make the oposition look bad ... this is dishonest, and does a disservice to the discussion. But then agaibn, I noter htis as a pattern for you. Rather than simpley address concerns, you put down your opoannt, or downplay their concerns, so you can artificially bolsiter your own argument, which is usually based on emotionalism and not reason or compassionMoving on...

Only one of them offered anything to back it up (and it did offer a well-researched record of scientific studies).

I know you think I am an idiot who knows nothign but lets look at this rewalistically. There are literlaly Thousands of studies on Pornography. Only 2% may become rapists, buit 95% have adverse effects if they veiw pronogrpahy on a prolonged veneue. Thats a fact.Just because they dotn all turn into Rapists doesnt mean that nothign bad happens. Frequent ornigraphy users also tend to be more prone to promiscuity, adultary, and illicit sex outside of the confines of marriage. They are 200% more likely to hire a Prostitute. ( Which you think shoudl be legal, even though you wont let your family members be hookers you are OK with my daughter beign one, no matter how much it hurts me its her choice. Just not a choice your daughter can make.) Pornography users are the MOST lileoy tp be involved in sexual perversion, and run the highest risk of optainign a Sexually Transmitted disease.

They also have less realistic expectations of relationships and emphasis sex well too much. You can doubt me and these sites, but do you have anythign to back your own argument on othe rhtan " Those guys sditn back theur statements up."? Anyhtign good to say about Pornofrahy that woudl negate its damaging effects?

I can post names of several reports if you woudl like. I can list hundreds of studies names, and show their conclusions. If interested. But pleae, by all means, try to support your claim that its harmless...

Even that didn't prove much.

What would? If I provide you withthe names of several clinical studies woudl that rpove anyhting? Or is the turth determined by your ideology?

what woudl constitute proof to you? How much research have you done?

Not one of the sites gave any figures that said that more than 2% of people who watch pornography turn out like that.

How many peopel who are regular porn users turn out well adjusted though? you seem to think that so long as they arent serial rapists or chidl molesters they are fine. what about the effects it has on hteir ability to communicate in a menaignful way to members of he oppsiite sex? The damage it does to marriage? what aboutth the effects that ocure that arent as radical, but still noneetheless deviant? Why do you ignore those?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@MJUNO.COM), December 27, 2003.


Response to Don

Turning off italics, I hope.

Zarove, there is no disrespect intended by this message. You have mentioned that you suffer from dyslexia. I have noticed, on at least two occasions (including above), that you have not successfully used closing HTML tags. You may be forgetting to put in a closing command, or you may be transposing two of the characters in the closer -- getting the "/" before the "<", or getting the "i" before the "/", or getting the ">" before the "i".

To overcome the latter possibility, I suggest that you check your closers very carefully -- or you can always insert two closers. If either one is right, the job will get done. Having an extra closer won't hurt if the first one works.

-- (clean@up.crew), December 28, 2003.


Response to Don

"Once again exageratinvg to make the oposition look bad ... this is dishonest, and does a disservice to the discussion. But then agaibn, I noter htis as a pattern for you. Rather than simpley address concerns, you put down your opoannt, or downplay their concerns, so you can artificially bolsiter your own argument, which is usually based on emotionalism and not reason or compassionMoving on... "

Jeez, will you stop whining? Every time I try to debate you you take up half your damn post with "He was making fun of me...". Just stop already. Nobody cares.

"Just because they dotn all turn into Rapists doesnt mean that nothign bad happens."

I don't buy into the idea that what we see or read determines who we are. It's like when people tried to blame the Columbine shootings on Maralyn Manson. If your kid goes and blows away his classmates because some freak with a guitar tells him too, your kid is majorly screwed up and would have done it eventualy regardless of what he listened too. Maybe porn does objectify women a little bit but hey, what are you going to do? That's what sells. That's why we try to keep pornography out of minor's hands.

"They are 200% more likely to hire a Prostitute. ( Which you think shoudl be legal, even though you wont let your family members be hookers you are OK with my daughter beign one, no matter how much it hurts me its her choice. Just not a choice your daughter can make.)"

When it comes to social isssues I consider myself a Libertarian (on the economy, however, I beleive exactly the opposite). I think that most things need to be left up to the individual. Different people have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong. No one should be able to force theirs on others. So I think most choices should be left up to the individual. I'm not saying I think your daughter should be a prostitute, I'm saying you and your daughter should have the right to choose. Chill out.

"What would? If I provide you withthe names of several clinical studies woudl that rpove anyhting? Or is the turth determined by your ideology?"

The thing is, you can't really prove that people who watch pornography respect women less with a clinical study. I understand where you're coming from, and I think that, to an extent, it does make people respect women less and think more about sex than the actual relationship, but not to the extent that you guys play it up to.

"How many peopel who are regular porn users turn out well adjusted though?"

I think most males look at pornography occasionaly, and most of them are more or less well adjusted.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 28, 2003.


Response to Don

"Once again exageratinvg to make the oposition look bad ... this is dishonest, and does a disservice to the discussion. But then agaibn, I noter htis as a pattern for you. Rather than simpley address concerns, you put down your opoannt, or downplay their concerns, so you can artificially bolsiter your own argument, which is usually based on emotionalism and not reason or compassionMoving on... " Jeez, will you stop whining? Every time I try to debate you you take up half your damn post with "He was making fun of me...". Just stop already. Nobody cares.

I didnt whine, I stated a fact. You are rude and insulting, and you often DO misrepresent your opoannt, rely on cheap insul;ts, or dismiss their concerns.

"Just because they dotn all turn into Rapists doesnt mean that nothign bad happens."

I don't buy into the idea that what we see or read determines who we are.

Then you disagree withthe majority of Psycologists and sociologists, who have known for decades that the media has a profpound impact on people. Indeed the (Liberal) Nazi's freely exploited the Media by flooding it with propeganda, designed to spacifically shape the peoples mindset. ( Before you go of on a tnagent reminding everyone that the Nazi's where conservative, remmember that all you can do is repeat " They wanted everyone to be loyal tot he state" while ignoreing the bulk of what National Socualiusm stood for, as well as dismising the fact that nationalism is NOTa Conservative ideal.) Indeed, the bulk of oyr culture is determined by what we read, see on television and in movies, and the way in which we are told to live in our work area by the govenrment. Therefore Pornography is capable of generating a massive pesonality shift, as one must develop certain mental charecteristics to enjoy the Porn, charecteristics which do spill over into their regular lives. To deny this is to deny the evidence.

It's like when people tried to blame the Columbine shootings on Maralyn Manson. If your kid goes and blows away his classmates because some freak with a guitar tells him too, your kid is majorly screwed up and would have done it eventualy regardless of what he listened too.

Actually most peopel thought Columbine was caused by a cimbination of factors, including black metal mustic...it was a cumulative effect, not caused by a single agent. No one blamesd Marylyn Manson directly with the tragedty any mor ehtan peopel blame Neiche with Naziism...though his Philosophy did storngly influence the party thinking of the period.

Maybe porn does objectify women a little bit but hey, what are you going to do? That's what sells.

So because it sells its justifiable? It only sells because peopel are conditioned to like it. In areas where they are conditioned differently it doesnt sell. Ever stop and think that we can educate peopel not to want this? And by the way you just admitted it objectified women, so are you all in favour of reducign women to the level of a prodict?

That's why we try to keep pornography out of minor's hands.

How about keepign it out of everyones hands, no one needs theior minds influenc ed by this smut.

"They are 200% more likely to hire a Prostitute. ( Which you think shoudl be legal, even though you wont let your family members be hookers you are OK with my daughter beign one, no matter how much it hurts me its her choice. Just not a choice your daughter can make.)"

When it comes to social isssues I consider myself a Libertarian (on the economy, however, I beleive exactly the opposite). I think that most things need to be left up to the individual. Different people have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong.

So woudl you let your daughter be a Prostitute, in anothe rthread you said you woudlnt... why then woudl you be OK with my daughter doign it while denying the choice to your own?This is Hypocracy.

No one should be able to force theirs on others.

Good, so when your daughter becomes a hooker, let her be a hooker...its her choice.

So I think most choices should be left up to the individual. I'm not saying I think your daughter should be a prostitute, I'm saying you and your daughter should have the right to choose. Chill out.

Actually you said you WOULD NOT ALLOW A WHORE IN YOUR FAMILY.

This means you are denying your family choice. You do not want your dauighter to "Be a Whore", your own words, you woudl let it, you woudl "Kick their butt" ... you are NOT allowing them choices, you are denyign them choices while creatign an environment that will intrap many women into this lifestyle, and make no mistake, it is a trap.

So now you are shown to be a Liar and a Hypopocrite as wll as incredibley ignorant of History.

"What would? If I provide you withthe names of several clinical studies woudl that rpove anyhting? Or is the turth determined by your ideology?"

The thing is, you can't really prove that people who watch pornography respect women less with a clinical study. I understand where you're coming from, and I think that, to an extent, it does make people respect women less and think more about sex than the actual relationship, but not to the extent that you guys play it up to.

Let me ask you this, if I cannot prove anyhtign with a clinical study, why shoudl I beleive your intuition? You Beleive that it doesnt have the ramifications we say, but this is base don nothign more htan your personal philosophy, at leats with aclinical study we have objective science. You have what? Your desire yoo impose your veiws on oithers?

You dotn base your opinion on anyhting, you just sorta assume thigns are trienthen argue from there...

"How many peopel who are regular porn users turn out well adjusted though?"

I think most males look at pornography occasionaly,

Actually I dont look at Porn except for researhc in Psucolgu when I have to.

This is just more unbased assumptions, which you make up and assuke to be true because you want them to be true.

and most of them are more or less well adjusted.

Says who? You? Define well adjusted.



-- Zarove (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2003.



STARTIGN OVER...

"Once again exageratinvg to make the oposition look bad ... this is dishonest, and does a disservice to the discussion. But then agaibn, I noter htis as a pattern for you. Rather than simpley address concerns, you put down your opoannt, or downplay their concerns, so you can artificially bolsiter your own argument, which is usually based on emotionalism and not reason or compassionMoving on... " Jeez, will you stop whining? Every time I try to debate you you take up half your damn post with "He was making fun of me...". Just stop already. Nobody cares. I didnt whine, I stated a fact. You are rude and insulting, and you often DO misrepresent your opoannt, rely on cheap insul;ts, or dismiss their concerns.

"Just because they dotn all turn into Rapists doesnt mean that nothign bad happens."

I don't buy into the idea that what we see or read determines who we are.

{Then you disagree withthe majority of Psycologists and sociologists, who have known for decades that the media has a profpound impact on people. Indeed the (Liberal) Nazi's freely exploited the Media by flooding it with propeganda, designed to spacifically shape the peoples mindset. ( Before you go of on a tnagent reminding everyone that the Nazi's where conservative, remmember that all you can do is repeat " They wanted everyone to be loyal tot he state" while ignoreing the bulk of what National Socualiusm stood for, as well as dismising the fact that nationalism is NOTa Conservative ideal.) Indeed, the bulk of oyr culture is determined by what we read, see on television and in movies, and the way in which we are told to live in our work area by the govenrment. Therefore Pornography is capable of generating a massive pesonality shift, as one must develop certain mental charecteristics to enjoy the Porn, charecteristics which do spill over into their regular lives. To deny this is to deny the evidence. }

It's like when people tried to blame the Columbine shootings on Maralyn Manson. If your kid goes and blows away his classmates because some freak with a guitar tells him too, your kid is majorly screwed up and would have done it eventualy regardless of what he listened too.

{Actually most peopel thought Columbine was caused by a cimbination of factors, including black metal mustic...it was a cumulative effect, not caused by a single agent. No one blamesd Marylyn Manson directly with the tragedty any mor ehtan peopel blame Neiche with Naziism...though his Philosophy did storngly influence the party thinking of the period. }

Maybe porn does objectify women a little bit but hey, what are you going to do? That's what sells.

{So because it sells its justifiable? It only sells because peopel are conditioned to like it. In areas where they are conditioned differently it doesnt sell. Ever stop and think that we can educate peopel not to want this? And by the way you just admitted it objectified women, so are you all in favour of reducign women to the level of a prodict? By he way Porn doesnt objectify women "A little". The wholle industry is about objectyfyong women as sex objets.}

That's why we try to keep pornography out of minor's hands.

{How about keepign it out of everyones hands, no one needs their minds influenced by this smut. }

"They are 200% more likely to hire a Prostitute. ( Which you think shoudl be legal, even though you wont let your family members be hookers you are OK with my daughter beign one, no matter how much it hurts me its her choice. Just not a choice your daughter can make.)"

When it comes to social isssues I consider myself a Libertarian (on the economy, however, I beleive exactly the opposite). I think that most things need to be left up to the individual. Different people have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong.

{So woudl you let your daughter be a Prostitute, in anothe rthread you said you woudlnt... why then woudl you be OK with my daughter doign it while denying the choice to your own?This is Hypocracy. }

No one should be able to force theirs on others.

{Good, so when your daughter becomes a hooker, let her be a hooker...its her choice. }

So I think most choices should be left up to the individual. I'm not saying I think your daughter should be a prostitute, I'm saying you and your daughter should have the right to choose. Chill out.

{Actually you said you WOULD NOT ALLOW A WHORE IN YOUR FAMILY.

This means you are denying your family choice. You do not want your dauighter to "Be a Whore", your own words, you woudl let it, you woudl "Kick their butt" ... you are NOT allowing them choices, you are denyign them choices while creatign an environment that will intrap many women into this lifestyle, and make no mistake, it is a trap.

So now you are shown to be a Liar and a Hypopocrite as wll as incredibley ignorant of History. }

"What would? If I provide you withthe names of several clinical studies woudl that rpove anyhting? Or is the turth determined by your ideology?"

The thing is, you can't really prove that people who watch pornography respect women less with a clinical study. I understand where you're coming from, and I think that, to an extent, it does make people respect women less and think more about sex than the actual relationship, but not to the extent that you guys play it up to.

{Let me ask you this, if I cannot prove anyhtign with a clinical study, why shoudl I beleive your intuition? You Beleive that it doesnt have the ramifications we say, but this is base don nothign more htan your personal philosophy, at leats with aclinical study we have objective science. You have what? Your desire yoo impose your veiws on oithers?

You dotn base your opinion on anyhting, you just sorta assume thigns are trienthen argue from there... and yours is more accurate?}

"How many peopel who are regular porn users turn out well adjusted though?"

I think most males look at pornography occasionaly,

{Actually I dont look at Porn except for researhc in Psucolgu when I have to. Further, we ar discussing peopel who frequent it.

This is just more unbased assumptions, which you make up and assuke to be true because you want them to be true. }

and most of them are more or less well adjusted.

{Says who? You? Define well adjusted. }



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 29, 2003.


>>> Has anyone really wondered why Women are treated in the manner they are being treated? Why men and women are more confused today about relationships then they were 2000 years ago... Why certain rules of relationships for better or worst is being thrown out the window, because TV shows and movies show people fornicating at will... I tend to agree with don… Sinful thoughts do lead to sinful actions and in the Ten Commandments there is a reason why, #5 through #10 deals with actions to others.

Now the question is why are these thoughts inappropriate: Does lusting over a beautiful unknown woman or man hurt anybody? From my personal experience, yes. Does watching someone (being abused) in a Porn movie hurt anybody? From my personal experience, yes. This woman is someone’s mother, daughter, sister or wife (Visa versa), being photographed/videotaped in an intimate setting for lustful purposes. In addition, if you go in to the raw XXX type movies where fornication is without consequences, you will see that watching enough movies will compel you to do or try some of the actions seen in these movies, But how far will you go? Oral sex, anal sex, three- some and/or gang rape…

Why do you think, “applying for an annulment” is an ongoing hot topic on this board? Always I hear “ it just didn’t work out the way I planed”. Why are people unsatisfied in their current relationships is it, because of other worldly pleasures (either partner)? What is his or her need to be with someone else? Do they think they are missing else in their lives? I have seen many relationships fail because of a wondering eye (for lack of a better them). Only God will decided if what people are doing is over the top and like the post said “That is why Jason didn’t see the red light and didn’t notice the silver SUV. He never heard the squeal of brakes. He never saw the look of horror on the woman’s face, as her car slammed violently into his, knocking it off the road, down the embankment and into the river. No, he saw none of it. But, an instant later, Jason did stand at the judgment seat of Jesus Christ.

-- JohnQ_Public (John@aol.com), December 29, 2003.


"I didnt whine, I stated a fact. You are rude and insulting, and you often DO misrepresent your opoannt, rely on cheap insul;ts, or dismiss their concerns."

Skip skip skip "You're making fun of me!" skip skip skip "Waaa!" skip skip skip

"Indeed the (Liberal) Nazi's freely exploited the Media by flooding it with propeganda, designed to spacifically shape the peoples mindset."

Yes, the media can help shape people's minds but it doesn't determine who you are. The media can't make you a mureder or a rapist. It can make you a wigger or a little wannabee skater, or in your case it can make you a brain-dead, jingoistic vegetable who is incapable of forming an idepenedent thought, but that's about it.

"as well as dismising the fact that nationalism is NOTa Conservative ideal"

Yes it is, you moron. You show your complete lack of knowledge of the poltical spectrum when you say that. Fascism is authortarian conservitavism.

"{So because it sells its justifiable? It only sells because peopel are conditioned to like it"

Men aren't conditioned to like pictures of naked women. It just sorta happens.

"How about keepign it out of everyones hands, no one needs their minds influenced by this smut."

How about YOU do what you think is good for YOU and stop trying to force your morals on other people.

"So woudl you let your daughter be a Prostitute, in anothe rthread you said you woudlnt... "

It's called common sense, nimrod. Use it once in a blue moon.

"You do not want your dauighter to "Be a Whore", your own words, you woudl let it, you woudl "Kick their butt" ... you are NOT allowing them choices,"

I'm not allowing them that coice. That's a responsibility of the head of the family, to make sure no one in his family does something stupid like that. I'll quote Chris Rock:

"When you're a father, you have two main jobs. If you have a son, keep him off the pipe. If you have a daughter, keep her off the pole."

of course I'm still in high school, so I'm not a father (thank god).

"So now you are shown to be a Liar and a Hypopocrite as wll as incredibley ignorant of History."

What is this, German, where every noun is capitalized? Gutentag! Wie gehts dir? Ich heisse Anti. Wie heisst du?

How am I ignorant of history. You're the one who thinks Franco was a good dictator.

"Let me ask you this, if I cannot prove anyhtign with a clinical study, why shoudl I beleive your intuition?"

Fine, don't. I'm supposed to care?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 29, 2003.


Dammit, Zarove!!! Do you think I posted that previous message for my health?

You didn't do EITHER of the two things I suggested. You didn't make duplicate "closers" for your italics sections, and you didn't make sure that you used even ONE "closer." As a result, you failed to close off at least two of your (intended) italics sections, and it completely fouled up the thread.

If you won't do the two things I recommended, then you have to stop using HTML completely -- and start using quotation marks instead (to quote other people).

-- (clean@up.crew), December 29, 2003.


AS to clezan up crew, I tried.

Now... to AntiBush.

I didnt whine, I stated a fact. You are rude and insulting, and you often DO misrepresent your opoannt, rely on cheap insul;ts, or dismiss their concerns." Skip skip skip "You're making fun of me!" skip skip skip "Waaa!" skip skip skip

{ So instead of a real rebttle you resport to more namecallign and cheap insult. Why dony you try to adress the real issues.}

"Indeed the (Liberal) Nazi's freely exploited the Media by flooding it with propeganda, designed to spacifically shape the peoples mindset."

Yes, the media can help shape people's minds but it doesn't determine who you are. The media can't make you a mureder or a rapist.

{ It can, however, contribute by encouraging certain thoughts and ideas that lead, directly or indirectly, to these behaviours. That was the point you missed. Then again, any time anyone mentions responcibility you seem to dismiss their concerns.}

It can make you a wigger or a little wannabee skater, or in your case it can make you a brain-dead, jingoistic vegetable who is incapable of forming an idepenedent thought, but that's about it.

{ I have mor eindependant thoughts than you do, and I dislike being labled, least of all by a morose, incpompetant Nincompoop who hoimself can do nothign but rely on constant namecalling. You think you have me Pegged, when you dont veen know where I stand on political issues, all the whole, you berate and belittle me by your incessant namecalling, whole tryogm to force feed your liberal, unthinkign agenbda. You call me braindead and incapable of coalculating an independant thoughtg, but in reality, the reverse is true. nothing you blirt out, over and over again, is origional, all you do is accept it AS TRUTH AND TRY TO IMPOSE your MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE WHILE RAILROADING THEIR CONCERNS.

Now, stop withhte childish namecalling and try to make valid points.}

"as well as dismising the fact that nationalism is NOTa Conservative ideal"

Yes it is, you moron.

{ More namecalling? Here si the thing, if nationalism is COnservative, why is it that the Liberals say things like " Global Village" and try to implement contonual sociualist practices? Socialism is intrinsically nationalistic, and governed by the state which rfpresents the people. Conservayives tend to avoid large government. Socialists insist that everyhting be government controled, and modern Liberals are the ones pushing for greater and greater regestration of various aspects of peoples lives.}

You show your complete lack of knowledge of the poltical spectrum when you say that.

{ Actually, I dont. You are the one whose a socialist, and socialism inately leads to state domination of peopels lives, and the state being in absolute authority. Check hisotry.}

Fascism is authortarian conservitavism.

{ Only accordign to you. by the way, an interestign fact. Hitler was a socialist. Musilini was a facist. They both wherent facists.}

"{So because it sells its justifiable? It only sells because peopel are conditioned to like it"

Men aren't conditioned to like pictures of naked women. It just sorta happens.

{ Actualy men are conditioned. Studies on other cultures have proven repeatedly that different cultures respond differently t the same stimuli over time.But then, you want us to ignore studies if ytou contradict your worldveiw, liek a true Liberal, you dont want to think, you want to say things like they are fact and if someone disagrees you like to call them names. }

"How about keepign it out of everyones hands, no one needs their minds influenced by this smut."

How about YOU do what you think is good for YOU and stop trying to force your morals on other people.

{ You are by far more forceful than I. Indeed, socialism imposes secularism on EVERYONE. You come to a catholic message board and try to force peopel here not to talk like cahtolics for cryogn out loud. I know, whining... but think, just for onece think... why shouidl we all modify the way we speak ( And by extension the way we think) To accomodate you on this message board? I am not even Catholic and yet you try to restirct my conduct.}

"So woudl you let your daughter be a Prostitute, in anothe rthread you said you woudlnt... "

It's called common sense, nimrod. Use it once in a blue moon.

{ I am, and the point is this, if its wsong for MY daughter to be a Hooker, why shoudl I allow it for another mands daughter? Unliek your socialist fantacy, real love is not found in toleratign anyhtign peopel wan tto do, but in tryoing to help them. And my way is not imposign my morals on them, burt rather trying to get them to recognise the morality that is innate to their fignity as people.Somethign you pretend doesnt exist.}

"You do not want your dauighter to "Be a Whore", your own words, you woudl let it, you woudl "Kick their butt" ... you are NOT allowing them choices,"

I'm not allowing them that coice. That's a responsibility of the head of the family, to make sure no one in his family does something stupid like that. I'll quote Chris Rock:

"When you're a father, you have two main jobs. If you have a son, keep him off the pipe. If you have a daughter, keep her off the pole."

{ My responcibility as each womans brother in Christ is to prevent this, my respopncibility as each mans Brother in Christ is to prevent their faughters, who become MY daughters through them, form doing this. Why cant you understand compasssion in your mad queast for an illusion of freedom?}

of course I'm still in high school, so I'm not a father (thank god).

{ So you can Cap I, and other nouns, ut not God. Thats OK god isnt important enough to cap...}

"So now you are shown to be a Liar and a Hypopocrite as wll as incredibley ignorant of History."

What is this, German, where every noun is capitalized? Gutentag! Wie gehts dir? Ich heisse Anti. Wie heisst du?

{ I actually do know German. Incedentally I was usign a tool for emphasis. Its a writers tool.}

How am I ignorant of history. You're the one who thinks Franco was a good dictator.

{ You sort of misconstrue what I mean by that though. Then again, my veiss are complexe and dytnamic. All I said of FGranco was that he maintained spainish stability and prevnted it from enterign WW2 thus makign him a good dictator in the logn run. Not that he was personally good. But then, you are the one that likes to say I am braindead and you are oh so smary. Try to figurte out what I eman now that I gave you a lead...and a last hint. Franco was better than allowign Anarchy in spain and a Nazi potential victory.}

"Let me ask you this, if I cannot prove anyhtign with a clinical study, why shoudl I beleive your intuition?"

Fine, don't. I'm supposed to care?

{ The point is that, like a typical liberal, you cannot argue on facts, and rely on attackign your oponant ( Using childish namecalling, liek you repeatedly callign me an idiot and incompetant, and yet never addressing my point, or sheer emotionalism, like your cousin whose Gay and a nice guy. If you cannot support your own case, why shoudl we beleive anyhtign you say has any merit?}



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 29, 2003.



"You think you have me Pegged, when you dont veen know where I stand on political issues, all the whole, you berate and belittle me by your incessant namecalling, whole tryogm to force feed your liberal, unthinkign agenbda. "

Of course I do. You are a conservative with a complete lack of knowledge of the political spectrum. You think that Fascism is a left- wing system and that Hitler was a Liberal. You deny all wrongdoings of the American right, such as giving Saddam a whole bunch of weapons and allowing them to use them on their own people. You claim to be for limited government, yet you want to propose laws left and right to tell others what to do. Am I on the mark so far?

"all you do is accept it AS TRUTH AND TRY TO IMPOSE your MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE WHILE RAILROADING THEIR CONCERNS"

I am the one saying that choices should be left up to the individual. The only morals I'm forcing on you are to leave everyone else alone. Look out for yourself. I know you consider yourself a crusader for what is right and that you have to save everyone else from themselves, but it's time to leave everyone else alone. What other people do within the privacy of their own home is NONE OF YOUR BUISINESS.

"if nationalism is COnservative, why is it that the Liberals say things like " Global Village" and try to implement contonual sociualist practices?"

That's not nationalism. Nationalism is extreme pride in one's nation, sometimes to the point that it is seen as superior to others. The "global village" would be exactly the opposite, with every culture accepting the others and learing more about each others.

"Socialism is intrinsically nationalistic, and governed by the state which rfpresents the people."

Partly true. Authortarian Socailism does. Democratic Socialism, on the other hand, utilizes some of that "global village" stuff you were whining about. It's not just the socialist system itself I admire, but the culture that is needed to support it. European culture, especialy, I admire. Europeans don't kid themselves with all this "We're number one" bullshit that Americans do. We as a people are indoctrinated from a young age with this jingoistic sense of national pride, like the U.S. is perfect. Europeans don't do that. The average European graduates high school speaking at least two languages, usualy three. But what I most like about Europeans is that they don't drive gigantic SUV's. I hate these self-absorbed Americans who drive cars the size of tanks to the grocery store because they think it makes them appear powerful. Makes me sick. I prefer a nice Mini any day of the week. That's the hippie in me.

"Actualy men are conditioned."

Really? Men are conditioned to like boobs?

"You are by far more forceful than I. Indeed, socialism imposes secularism on EVERYONE."

As opposed to imposing a single religion on everyone? No, in a nation as diverse as ours, secularism is the way to go. No one is stopping you from practicing your religion, and everyone else is free to practice theirs. But religion has no place in the government.

"my respopncibility as each mans Brother in Christ is to prevent their faughters,"

Your responsibilty is to take care of yourself and your family in the best way you know and let others do the same.

"Franco was better than allowign Anarchy in spain and a Nazi potential victory."

Spain had a democracy before Franco. Franco just wasn't happy with the decisions of the people, so he decided he would make all the coices for them. Apparently one choice the people had failed to make was the choice to brutaly torture and kill all poltical opposition. What a pal, eh?

Spain would have been better off in anarchy then under franco.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 29, 2003.


You deny all wrongdoings of the American right, such as giving Saddam a whole bunch of weapons and allowing them to use them on their own people.

What weapons are you talking about? And what proof do you have? Cites please, or are you simply repeating political propaganda you heard at some rally?

Spain would have been better off in anarchy then under franco.

No way. In anarchy, Spain would have been easy pickings for Hitler. Franco kept Hitler away from control of the Mediterranean Sea. There is a very good argument that had Franco not done this, Germany could have won the war before we got into it. Would Spain have been better off under Hitler? I dare say the communists would have suffered an equal or bitter fate, not to mention the Jews.

In Christ,
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 29, 2003.


"You think you have me Pegged, when you dont veen know where I stand on political issues, all the whole, you berate and belittle me by your incessant namecalling, whole tryogm to force feed your liberal, unthinkign agenbda. "

Of course I do. You are a conservative with a complete lack of knowledge of the political spectrum.

I have a complete wporkign knowledge of the political spectrum, and most of my veiws are a mix of liberl and conservative, and I dont really fit with either system. I only class myself as conservative because they at least arent trying to impose socialism. I am really a classicsist Brit.

You think that Fascism is a left- wing system and that Hitler was a Liberal.

He was. Have you ny proof that he wasnt? Saying " He was a nationalist, and thats conservative" isnt good enough. even if nationalism was conservative, its not the totality of Hitlers regime. Ignorign the bulk of what he beleived in and emphasising only one aspect itsself is incredibley ignorant. Incedentally, Nationalism is NOT a conservative value.

You deny all wrongdoings of the American right, such as giving Saddam a whole bunch of weapons and allowing them to use them on their own people.

This is actually only partially true. I denied your exagerations of the events and your wild conspiracy theories. Not that the American right did some evils along the way. But guess what? So did the American left... this si why I am proud not to be an American...

You claim to be for limited government, yet you want to propose laws left and right to tell others what to do.

actually Conservatives claim to be for limited government, and Liberals arefor a saocialist system which regulates everything. This is the extent of my claims. Since the style of Government I actually want doesnt exist, I am nore for amendign the current system than increasing or decreasing its power...

Am I on the mark so far?

Not even close.

"all you do is accept it AS TRUTH AND TRY TO IMPOSE your MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE WHILE RAILROADING THEIR CONCERNS"

I am the one saying that choices should be left up to the individual.

Sounds goond in theory, but in practice you limit peopels rights when you implement your system. Govenrment will inevitabely take soem rights away as well as grant some, the queatsion is which ines do we grant and which ones do we allow. Thus, things like Murder are dissallowed, and I am not granted by the state any authority to commit Murder. That one we all agree on, the rest is debate on what is and is not acceptable, and you seem to think its not. But it is.I cn near gerantee that if we gave you charge over the Government ytou woudl automatically protest people usign theri right to free speach to speak out agaisnt Homosexuals on television or in poublic gatherings, abnd woudl try to reduce or even impoose restirctiosn agaisnt moral teachigns being presented on television. You say, of course, you woudlnt, but if you didnt your whole power basewoudl fall.

The only morals I'm forcing on you are to leave everyone else alone.

Nort really. This is just a pretty lie. In reality you call me an idiot and try to prevent me from speaking on this board on various issues as if I didnt have the right to speak my mind. And lets face it this is a message board and I am a Psych student, I am NOT int he psoition to inact laws. The vac tthat you get all hot and bothered over me being opposed to Gay Marriahe and Porn proves that you want to impelment a sort of thought police on people. Go on now, call me Paranoid. But in the end I am right.

Look out for yourself. I know you consider yourself a crusader for what is right and that you have to save everyone else from themselves, but it's time to leave everyone else alone.

Actually I am a Philoospher and psycolohy student who thinks everyone needs to be educated in how their own mind works and how to get the most out of life. My system is proven to impower people more than yours. Your socialist systemn tends to make peopel reliant on the state, and also tends to frbid free discuzsion or thought that doesnt coincide with your Liberyine attitude. Mine simpley presents the facts. You consider yourself more a crusader than I laddie bucks.

What other people do within the privacy of their own home is NONE OF YOUR BUISINESS.

Yet your stpromtroopers woudl be very interested in what I did in my home,. See talk like yours is how Hitler got started. You make accusations agaisnt me that arent supported then try to regulate peoples thoughts and attitudes if they run contrarian to your veiws. Indeed, you constantly rely on namecalling. How many times have you calle dme an idiot or soemthign akin to this? was that nessisary? Cant you show curtesey and repsect? Obviously not. I am guessing then you cannot show an acceptace to my right to speak or my provacy, but you candemonise me and claim you have to keep an eye on me for the public good. which woudl invariabley be the end result.

"if nationalism is COnservative, why is it that the Liberals say things like " Global Village" and try to implement contonual sociualist practices?"

That's not nationalism. Nationalism is extreme pride in one's nation, sometimes to the point that it is seen as superior to others.

So their goes British Pride... And actually Liberals are very attatched to their nation, they just want the whole world to be that nation. Thats the poitn o the curent trend toward globalism. DOnt get me wrong, a oen world govenrment isnt wrong innately, but the Liberals drive for a Global government is a far cry from a natural and mutually benevolent merger. Its a nationalism of its own.

The "global village" would be exactly the opposite, with every culture accepting the others and learing more about each others.

Not really. In many public places these days I was told to remove my Bible which I take with me everywhere. Thats not respecting Christain culture. In fact, Liberals tend to do that with most cultures. They seelct one, such as Islam, or Natice american, exploit it to get money form various prohrammes, then tell the peopel to set aside their various beleifs, both religious and cultural, in order to accomodate the united whole of the hlobal village. For instance, Islam is supported externally by the Liberal agenda in America, but internally, Islams laws prohibiting Homosexuality are suppressed.Various other aspects of ISlam are actively discouraged, but at the same time, tings like clothign and Muslim names are emphasised giving the false impression that Islam is thriving, when in fact its beign suppressed.

In short, they accept the surface trappings of the culture, to get what they want, and to garner support, then impose their veiws on the peopel in that culture and force then to speak act and think a certain way as to have them acocmodatable in the new secularist state they have created.

"Socialism is intrinsically nationalistic, and governed by the state which rfpresents the people."

Partly true. Authortarian Socailism does. Democratic Socialism, on the other hand, utilizes some of that "global village" stuff you were whining about.

Pleae stop sayign I am whining, all I am doign is presentign a case, not whining, and the constant derogitations you place upon me are becomign tiresome. They serve no purpose. Also, the Globalism in Modern Liberalism is exaclty what Hitler had in mind when he wanted to firts take Germany then the world. Its the same thing, only more ambitioys.

It's not just the socialist system itself I admire, but the culture that is needed to support it.

You mean one in whihc peiple renounc etheir culture and religion and accomodate asecular, matirialistic lifestyle all fo rhte state, while leadign empyu and depressed lives?

European culture, especialy, I admire.

I am European. well, British.

Europeans don't kid themselves with all this "We're number one" bullshit that Americans do.

Thanks.

We as a people are indoctrinated from a young age with this jingoistic sense of national pride, like the U.S. is perfect.

Which I as a rifht wing Ameircan conservative beleive wholeheartedly right???

Europeans don't do that. The average European graduates high school speaking at least two languages, usualy three.

Thed number of languagef, and the level of education in general, has no link to nationalism. Indeed, the USSR, which was extemely Nationalistic, was also famous for its ability to educate the youth , many of whom spoke 4 or 5 languages by the time they turned 15. These issues are unrelated.Thouhg I think the Ameircan education system is severley lacking.

But what I most like about Europeans is that they don't drive gigantic SUV's. I hate these self-absorbed Americans who drive cars the size of tanks to the grocery store because they think it makes them appear powerful. Makes me sick. I prefer a nice Mini any day of the week. That's the hippie in me.

I am sure you meant to make a point here... but I really dont think car size means much. its just a cultural fad... its not even politically motivated.

"Actualy men are conditioned."

Really? Men are conditioned to like boobs?

Thansk again. You have proven you are an idiot. No, Men Like breasts on instinct, but Porography is not just picutres of naked women, and the usual first reaction to it is revulsion. One must become desensatised to it over a period of time. Ther eis a difference between natural sexual attraction between men and women and interest in porn, which is an exagerated, and perverse, form of overt sexuality.

"You are by far more forceful than I. Indeed, socialism imposes secularism on EVERYONE."

As opposed to imposing a single religion on everyone?

Who sugested that? This is a straw man...

No, in a nation as diverse as ours, secularism is the way to go.

Not really, secularism tends to have a demoralisign effect. Those european nations you admire so much are reapign sorrow upon sorrow as their citisens feel less and less alive. Clinical studies have shown, for instance,the power of Prayer in assisting in healing, and in relaxation. I think that rathe rthan fircing everyoen to set asid their religious beleifs, and watchign them wither for want of spirituality, we shoudl advocate many rleigious paths and allow religion to be freeluy excersised by people no matter what. I dont think its offensive tfor a Muslim to Pray to Mecca, nor woudl I find a Statue to Ghanisha partuicularly distracting if I worked in an office and a Hindu worked hte next desk over. Secularisation remives our rich religioys backgrounds and destorys the veryt cultures that you as a liberal pretend to wan to preserve.

No one is stopping you from practicing your religion, and everyone else is free to practice theirs.

Actually they forbif d me to practice it openly, I must, in your words, "Keep it in the churches." I cant talk abotu it in public and have to hide it away, until more and more I become secularised in my habbits myself, and I have less and les sin common with my religious beleifs. My religious beleifs are wholly opposed to secular standards,which I must accept in your wordld veiw, how can I do that? Lead tweo lives? one tolerating and condoning a way of life, and even living it, and another preachign holiness befopre God?

Secularisation doesnt preserve anyones rights, it destorys rights. Where in my system, everyon can freely worship so long as it doesnt impede others freedoms, even if this means praying in public, or leading a public prayer, in yours we have to live secularly and put on rleigion for show, whre we may attend a churhc-ritual on sundays, but not actually live a christain life, for fear of offending our secular standards and seperation of church nd state.

But religion has no place in the government.

There goes the admiration of europeans. Many Natiosnm in europe have national religions. The really funny thing is that most ofthem nowadays allow other religions to be practiced. Religion has a majpor role to play in founding culture to begin wiht, and shoul be part of govenrment, withthe Govemrnment tryong iots best to appease the standards and tachigns passed down to us throyghthe ages.I am not being very eloqiuent here and not conveyign mythoughts well,a nd I appologise, but for some reason I have lost my ability to write so well, but will regain it, it fades from time to time. But ,my main point hre is that you americans are too hung up on that seperation f churhc and state and fail to see that religion often underpins society and culture, and can be a very stabilising, even reassuring thing, as well as serving as a platform to effect social change.Even your Reverend Martain Luther King used the Church as his platvform for racial Desegregation! Todays antireligiou atmosphere woudl render this impossible.

"my respopncibility as each mans Brother in Christ is to prevent their faughters,"

Your responsibilty is to take care of yourself and your family in the best way you know and let others do the same.

My responcibility is to all mankind. This is compassion. Your socialist system is expodsed here as unfeelign and incarign ablut the general wlefare of the people.

"Franco was better than allowign Anarchy in spain and a Nazi potential victory."

Spain had a democracy before Franco. Franco just wasn't happy with the decisions of the people, so he decided he would make all the coices for them. Apparently one choice the people had failed to make was the choice to brutaly torture and kill all poltical opposition. What a pal, eh?

Actually that "Democracy" was corup[t and on the verge of collapse. Hitler or Musalini where poised to secure it for the Axis. Read hisotry sometime, it wasnt all that stable i psain when Franco took ovedr. And saying that it would be beter to hav anarchy is just insane. Alos read Bill's ppost OK?

Spain would have been better off in anarchy then under franco.

{See above.}



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@MJUNO.COM), December 30, 2003.


You think you have me Pegged, when you dont veen know where I stand on political issues, all the whole, you berate and belittle me by your incessant namecalling, whole tryogm to force feed your liberal, unthinkign agenbda. " Of course I do. You are a conservative with a complete lack of knowledge of the political spectrum.

{I have a complete wporkign knowledge of the political spectrum, and most of my veiws are a mix of liberl and conservative, and I dont really fit with either system. I only class myself as conservative because they at least arent trying to impose socialism. I am really a classicsist Brit. }

You think that Fascism is a left- wing system and that Hitler was a Liberal.

{It was and He was. Have you ny proof that he wasnt? Saying " He was a nationalist, and thats conservative" isnt good enough. even if nationalism was conservative, its not the totality of Hitlers regime. Ignorign the bulk of what he beleived in and emphasising only one aspect itsself is incredibley ignorant. Incedentally, Nationalism is NOT a conservative value. }

You deny all wrongdoings of the American right, such as giving Saddam a whole bunch of weapons and allowing them to use them on their own people.

{This is actually only partially true. I denied your exagerations of the events and your wild conspiracy theories. Not that the American right did some evils along the way. But guess what? So did the American left... this si why I am proud not to be an American... }

You claim to be for limited government, yet you want to propose laws left and right to tell others what to do.

{actually Conservatives claim to be for limited government, and Liberals arefor a saocialist system which regulates everything. This is the extent of my claims. Since the style of Government I actually want doesnt exist, I am nore for amendign the current system than increasing or decreasing its power... }

Am I on the mark so far?

{Not even close. }

"all you do is accept it AS TRUTH AND TRY TO IMPOSE your MORALS ON EVERYONE ELSE WHILE RAILROADING THEIR CONCERNS"

I am the one saying that choices should be left up to the individual.

{Sounds goond in theory, but in practice you limit peopels rights when you implement your system. Govenrment will inevitabely take soem rights away as well as grant some, the queatsion is which ines do we grant and which ones do we allow. Thus, things like Murder are dissallowed, and I am not granted by the state any authority to commit Murder. That one we all agree on, the rest is debate on what is and is not acceptable, and you seem to think its not. But it is.I cn near gerantee that if we gave you charge over the Government ytou woudl automatically protest people usign theri right to free speach to speak out agaisnt Homosexuals on television or in poublic gatherings, abnd woudl try to reduce or even impoose restirctiosn agaisnt moral teachigns being presented on television. You say, of course, you woudlnt, but if you didnt your whole power base woudl fall. }

The only morals I'm forcing on you are to leave everyone else alone.

{Not really. This is just a pretty lie. In reality you call me an idiot and try to prevent me from speaking on this board on various issues as if I didnt have the right to speak my mind. And lets face it this is a message board and I am a Psych student, I am NOT int he psoition to inact laws. The vac tthat you get all hot and bothered over me being opposed to Gay Marriahe and Porn proves that you want to impelment a sort of thought police on people. Go on now, call me Paranoid. But in the end I am right. }

Look out for yourself. I know you consider yourself a crusader for what is right and that you have to save everyone else from themselves, but it's time to leave everyone else alone.

{Actually I am a Philoospher and psycolohy student who thinks everyone needs to be educated in how their own mind works and how to get the most out of life. My system is proven to impower people more than yours. Your socialist systemn tends to make peopel reliant on the state, and also tends to frbid free discuzsion or thought that doesnt coincide with your Liberyine attitude. Mine simpley presents the facts. You consider yourself more a crusader than I laddie bucks. }

What other people do within the privacy of their own home is NONE OF YOUR BUISINESS.

{Yet your storomtroopers woudl be very interested in what I did in my home,. See talk like yours is how Hitler got started. You make accusations agaisnt me that arent supported then try to regulate peoples thoughts and attitudes if they run contrarian to your veiws. Indeed, you constantly rely on namecalling. How many times have you calle dme an idiot or soemthign akin to this? was that nessisary? Cant you show curtesey and repsect? Obviously not. I am guessing then you cannot show an acceptace to my right to speak or my provacy, but you candemonise me and claim you have to keep an eye on me for the public good. which woudl invariabley be the end result. }

"if nationalism is COnservative, why is it that the Liberals say things like " Global Village" and try to implement contonual sociualist practices?"

That's not nationalism. Nationalism is extreme pride in one's nation, sometimes to the point that it is seen as superior to others.

{So their goes British Pride... And actually Liberals are very attatched to their nation, they just want the whole world to be that nation. Thats the poitn o the curent trend toward globalism. DOnt get me wrong, a oen world govenrment isnt wrong innately, but the Liberals drive for a Global government is a far cry from a natural and mutually benevolent merger. Its a nationalism of its own. }

The "global village" would be exactly the opposite, with every culture accepting the others and learing more about each others.

{Not really. In many public places these days I was told to remove my Bible which I take with me everywhere. Thats not respecting Christain culture. In fact, Liberals tend to do that with most cultures. They seelct one, such as Islam, or Natice american, exploit it to get money form various prohrammes, then tell the peopel to set aside their various beleifs, both religious and cultural, in order to accomodate the united whole of the hlobal village. For instance, Islam is supported externally by the Liberal agenda in America, but internally, Islams laws prohibiting Homosexuality are suppressed.Various other aspects of ISlam are actively discouraged, but at the same time, tings like clothign and Muslim names are emphasised giving the false impression that Islam is thriving, when in fact its beign suppressed.

In short, they accept the surface trappings of the culture, to get what they want, and to garner support, then impose their veiws on the peopel in that culture and force then to speak act and think a certain way as to have them acocmodatable in the new secularist state they have created. }

"Socialism is intrinsically nationalistic, and governed by the state which rfpresents the people."

Partly true. Authortarian Socailism does. Democratic Socialism, on the other hand, utilizes some of that "global village" stuff you were whining about.

{Pleae stop sayign I am whining, all I am doign is presentign a case, not whining, and the constant derogitations you place upon me are becomign tiresome. They serve no purpose. Also, the Globalism in Modern Liberalism is exaclty what Hitler had in mind when he wanted to firts take Germany then the world. Its the same thing, only more ambitious. }

It's not just the socialist system itself I admire, but the culture that is needed to support it.

{You mean one in whihc peiple renounce their culture and religion and accomodate a secular, matirialistic lifestyle all fo rhte state, while leadign empy and depressed lives? }

European culture, especialy, I admire.

{I am European. well, British. }

Europeans don't kid themselves with all this "We're number one" bullshit that Americans do.

{Thanks. }

We as a people are indoctrinated from a young age with this jingoistic sense of national pride, like the U.S. is perfect.

{Which I as a rifht wing Ameircan conservative beleive wholeheartedly right??? }

Europeans don't do that. The average European graduates high school speaking at least two languages, usualy three.

{The number of languagef, and the level of education in general, has no link to nationalism. Indeed, the USSR, which was extemely Nationalistic, was also famous for its ability to educate the youth , many of whom spoke 4 or 5 languages by the time they turned 15. These issues are unrelated.Thouhg I think the Ameircan education system is severley lacking. }

But what I most like about Europeans is that they don't drive gigantic SUV's. I hate these self-absorbed Americans who drive cars the size of tanks to the grocery store because they think it makes them appear powerful. Makes me sick. I prefer a nice Mini any day of the week. That's the hippie in me.

{I am sure you meant to make a point here... but I really dont think car size means much. its just a cultural fad... its not even politically motivated. }

"Actualy men are conditioned."

Really? Men are conditioned to like boobs?

{Thansk again. You have proven you are an idiot. No, Men Like breasts on instinct, but Porography is not just picutres of naked women, and the usual first reaction to it is revulsion. One must become desensatised to it over a period of time. Ther eis a difference between natural sexual attraction between men and women and interest in porn, which is an exagerated, and perverse, form of overt sexuality. }

"You are by far more forceful than I. Indeed, socialism imposes secularism on EVERYONE."

As opposed to imposing a single religion on everyone?

{Who sugested that? This is a straw man... }

No, in a nation as diverse as ours, secularism is the way to go.

{Not really, secularism tends to have a demoralisign effect. Those european nations you admire so much are reapign sorrow upon sorrow as their citisens feel less and less alive. Clinical studies have shown, for instance,the power of Prayer in assisting in healing, and in relaxation. I think that rathe rthan fircing everyoen to set asid their religious beleifs, and watchign them wither for want of spirituality, we shoudl advocate many rleigious paths and allow religion to be freeluy excersised by people no matter what. I dont think its offensive tfor a Muslim to Pray to Mecca, nor woudl I find a Statue to Ghanisha partuicularly distracting if I worked in an office and a Hindu worked hte next desk over. Secularisation remives our rich religioys backgrounds and destorys the veryt cultures that you as a liberal pretend to wan to preserve. }

No one is stopping you from practicing your religion, and everyone else is free to practice theirs.

{Actually they forbif d me to practice it openly, I must, in your words, "Keep it in the churches." I cant talk abotu it in public and have to hide it away, until more and more I become secularised in my habbits myself, and I have less and les sin common with my religious beleifs. My religious beleifs are wholly opposed to secular standards,which I must accept in your wordld veiw, how can I do that? Lead tweo lives? one tolerating and condoning a way of life, and even living it, and another preachign holiness before God?

Secularisation doesnt preserve anyones rights, it destorys rights. Where in my system, everyon can freely worship so long as it doesnt impede others freedoms, even if this means praying in public, or leading a public prayer, in yours we have to live secularly and put on rleigion for show, whre we may attend a churhc-ritual on sundays, but not actually live a christain life, for fear of offending our secular standards and seperation of church nd state. }

But religion has no place in the government.

{There goes the admiration of europeans. Many Natiosnm in europe have national religions. The really funny thing is that most ofthem nowadays allow other religions to be practiced. Religion has a majpor role to play in founding culture to begin wiht, and shoul be part of govenrment, withthe Govemrnment tryong iots best to appease the standards and tachigns passed down to us throyghthe ages.I am not being very eloqiuent here and not conveyign mythoughts well,a nd I appologise, but for some reason I have lost my ability to write so well, but will regain it, it fades from time to time. But ,my main point hre is that you americans are too hung up on that seperation f churhc and state and fail to see that religion often underpins society and culture, and can be a very stabilising, even reassuring thing, as well as serving as a platform to effect social change.Even your Reverend Martain Luther King used the Church as his platvform for racial Desegregation! Todays antireligiou atmosphere woudl render this impossible. }

"my respopncibility as each mans Brother in Christ is to prevent their faughters,"

Your responsibilty is to take care of yourself and your family in the best way you know and let others do the same.

{My responcibility is to all mankind. This is compassion. Your socialist system is expodsed here as unfeelign and incarign ablut the general wlefare of the people. }

"Franco was better than allowign Anarchy in spain and a Nazi potential victory."

Spain had a democracy before Franco. Franco just wasn't happy with the decisions of the people, so he decided he would make all the coices for them. Apparently one choice the people had failed to make was the choice to brutaly torture and kill all poltical opposition. What a pal, eh?

{Actually that "Democracy" was corupt and on the verge of collapse. Hitler or Musalini where poised to secure it for the Axis. Read hisotry sometime, it wasnt all that stable i psain when Franco took ovedr. And saying that it would be beter to hav anarchy is just insane. Alos read Bill's ppost OK? }

Spain would have been better off in anarchy then under franco.

{See above.}



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 30, 2003.


AHEM! To repeat:


Zarove!!! Do you think I posted that previous message for my health?

You failed to close off one of your (intended) italics sections, and it fouled up things again.
Please start using quotation marks to quote other people, rather than HTML. If you are going to ignore me and insist on using HTML, then at least do one thing: Put down an opening tag AND two closing tags first. THEN insert the text between the opener and first closer. Then you won't have to try to remember to put in the closer, which you too often forget to use!

I started this message with a slew of italics-closers to get rid of anything you had left.

-- (clean@up.crew), December 30, 2003.


I did put closers on all my marks. I also cant use quotationmarks, I was asked to use Italics.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 30, 2003.

No, Zarove. You did not put valid "closers" in everywhere. You can see for yourself where you went wrong. Scroll up to where you started off OK. Then scroll down to where the italics continued when they were not supposed to continue -- after the end of this paragraph:

"Thed number of languagef, and the level of education in general, has no link to nationalism. Indeed, the USSR, which was extemely Nationalistic, was also famous for its ability to educate the youth , many of whom spoke 4 or 5 languages by the time they turned 15. These issues are unrelated.Thouhg I think the Ameircan education system is severley lacking."

Now notice how you erred in your "closer," which is actually viewable on this page, because of its error. You put in a question mark, instead of a slash:

That is why I suggested that you should choose one of these, in order of preferability
1. Never use HTML. Use quotation marks. (Don't say that you cannot use them. No one can prohibit you from using them.)
2. Use HTML, but always put at least two closers in, just in case the first one is no good (like "").
3. Use HTML, but put in the opener and closer first -- right up against each other -- and review them for perfection. THEN insert the text to be made italic, etc., between the opener and closer.

I hope that you now realize the merit of these suggestions.

-- (clean@up.crew), December 31, 2003.


The bottom line is, that we ARE affected by what we see. Remember the Power Rangers/Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? I remember seeing articles about kids who watched such shows kicking the crap out of their friend thinking it was cool cos their favourite character did the same on the TV. its the same idea with porn. you imagine yourself as the muscular, well-endowed(whatever) porno stud, degrading the "whore" and "giving her a good seeing to" that sounds like objectifying of a woman to me. im sorry BUT ITS GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. THATS WHY WE CENSOR KIDS FROM IT. ADULTS WORK IN THE SAME WAY. JUST AFTER 18/21 ITS UP TO YOU WHETHER YOU WATCH THAT STUFF OR NOT. Subconsciously, what we take in forms our attitudes, which is why Rupert Murdoch is evil because he controls lots of TV stations, you will find people - like Anti-Bush saying such things about people like Murdoch and his ownership of Sky, and how they subliminaly are controlling minds of many. Its the same with porn, the brain is an intelligent piece of equipment, and god says to guard your eyes, ears and mouth. hes designed us to be impressionable, and thats why if you fill yourself with crap, you will end up giving out crap even to your loved ones - I.E. YOUR WIFE! and or other women.

-- Chris (11@11.com), January 01, 2004.

"It was and He was. Have you ny proof that he wasnt?"

Do you have any proof that he was? All you have said was "Liberals are bad because Hitler was a liberal." What exactly made Hitler a liberal? National Socialism was a reactionary movement against the rise of racial equality in Europe and against the allied powers. Hitler was a reactionary, not a progressive.

"I am really a classicsist Brit."

What does that mean?

"I denied your exagerations of the events and your wild conspiracy theories."

Like what?

"Not that the American right did some evils along the way. But guess what? So did the American left... this si why I am proud not to be an American... "

What evils did the American left commit with regard to Saddam? It sure as hell wasn't the American left giving Saddam all those weapons, now, was it?

"actually Conservatives claim to be for limited government, and Liberals arefor a saocialist system which regulates everything. This is the extent of my claims. Since the style of Government I actually want doesnt exist, I am nore for amendign the current system than increasing or decreasing its power.."

Conservatives want to regulate morality but not the economy. Liberals want to regulate the economy but not morality. Libertarians want to regulate nothing (or close to nothing) and authortarians want to regulate everything. I would say I fall somehwere between liberal and libertarian. What system would you prefer?

"I cn near gerantee that if we gave you charge over the Government ytou woudl automatically protest people usign theri right to free speach to speak out agaisnt Homosexuals on television or in poublic gatherings, abnd woudl try to reduce or even impoose restirctiosn agaisnt moral teachigns being presented on television. You say, of course, you woudlnt, but if you didnt your whole power base woudl fall."

I don't really want to be in charge of the government. No one person should be. I don't even see the need for an executive branch. No one should have the authority to tell you that you can't speak your mind. I have never once challenged your right to speak on this board. I have no problem with right-wing nutcases spewing out their garbage on TV. I figure if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to watch it. The only one I really have a problem with is Rush Limbaugh. For years, he has called for extreme penalties for drug users while he got high off of painkillers after the show. He is just a hyppocrit.

"In reality you call me an idiot and try to prevent me from speaking on this board on various issues as if I didnt have the right to speak my mind."

How have I tried to prevent you from speaking on this board? Why would I want to? I like debating with you. Calling you an idiot doesn't stop you from speaking.

"The vac tthat you get all hot and bothered over me being opposed to Gay Marriahe and Porn proves that you want to impelment a sort of thought police on people."

What? You are the one who keeps saying that no one should be allowed to look at things YOU find offensive, and that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry because YOU think it's wrong.I have never challenged anyone's right to speak here.

"Actually I am a Philoospher and psycolohy student who thinks everyone needs to be educated in how their own mind works and how to get the most out of life. My system is proven to impower people more than yours. Your socialist systemn tends to make peopel reliant on the state, and also tends to frbid free discuzsion or thought that doesnt coincide with your Liberyine attitude."

There is a big difference between educating people and forbiding them to look at magazines you don't like.

"Yet your storomtroopers woudl be very interested in what I did in my home,"

What stormtroopers? You mean the ones next to my pink elephant?

I have never called for stormtroopers. I advocate the socialist system coupled with a democratic society. In my system, you can do whatever the hell you want tin your own home, as long as it doesn't impose on anyone else's freedom.

"See talk like yours is how Hitler got started."

That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Are you honestly that dumb? Get a grib, buddy. All I'm saying is to live and let live. Don't tell people they can't get married or look at a magazine. How is that the talk that got Hitler started? I thought Hitler got started on talk like "Kill all the Jews!" But I could be wrong.

"And actually Liberals are very attatched to their nation, they just want the whole world to be that nation."

I never said thaere was anything wrong with being attatched to your nation. That's not nationalism. That's just patriotism. There's a big difference.

"In many public places these days I was told to remove my Bible which I take with me everywhere."

I don't think that's right. No one should have the authority to tell you not to carry a book. That's Fascism. I don't support that.

"They seelct one, such as Islam, or Natice american, exploit it to get money form various prohrammes,"

How do Liberals get money from programs for Native Americans? Last time I checked, the programs (college aid, reparations for lost lands, ect.) COST the government money.

"For instance, Islam is supported externally by the Liberal agenda in America, but internally, Islams laws prohibiting Homosexuality are suppressed."

Of course they are. The United States is not an Islamic state, so we should be governed by an Islamic law prohibiting homosexuality. They can do whatever they want in their own country (I might not think it's right, but it's the will of the people), but here, our laws ore not governed by religion.

"I dont think its offensive tfor a Muslim to Pray to Mecca, nor woudl I find a Statue to Ghanisha partuicularly distracting if I worked in an office and a Hindu worked hte next desk over"

I agree with you there. We seem to have different definitions of secularism. I see secularism ar a system where religion stays completely out of the government. I don't think that people should be forbidden to show their religion in public, I just think that religion should have no effect on our government or our laws.

"Your socialist system is expodsed here as unfeelign and incarign ablut the general wlefare of the people."

Socialism is all about the welfare of the people. That's the main premise of the whole theory. Everyone works together for the good of the community and then independently for the good if the individual. Things like healthcare, food, housing, electricity, transportation, ect, are provided by the community to those who can't afford them.

"Actually that "Democracy" was corupt and on the verge of collapse."

Franco just sped things up and killed a few thousand people on the way. It's all good.

"And saying that it would be beter to hav anarchy is just insane

I would rather live with no government than a government that will torture and kill me if I speak against it.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.


Take ot to the thread I spacificallty started Crusader.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2004.

I looked at all of those sites. They all said the same thing-- people who look at pornography become violent rapists and child abusers who see women as sex toys and think rape is cool.

Wrong !!

In the past I've seen a few pornmovies , and I can assure you , I never did violate anyone , besides , pornmovies are boring ass hell and has no story !! __ I know people who hired pornmovies or have a subscription on a porn-TV-channel , that's sick & disgusting , but it still doesn't makes them all violaters , so , I think it has something to do with their brains/mind ==> a braindamage !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 05, 2004.


Think this through: you said it was: sick, discusting, brain damaging.... So it really does the individual harm. If you are the bread winner of a family and you make yourself sick, discusting or brain damaged, you are not doing anyone any harm? Even if you are not a bread winner and a society makes a bunch of sick, discutsting, brain damaged people, that is somehow OK for the society? ... I don't think you have thought this through.

Every part, as such, belongs to the whole. Now every man is part of the community, and so, as such, he belongs to the community. Hence by hurting himself, he injures the community. (paraphrasing Thomas Aquinas.. a pretty smart guy).

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.


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