Here's Faith's last answer:

ANSWER: But you recommended them on another forum. I actually did not really recommend them--I was just telling Jeanie that I was a bit read on the subject.., it was she who was recommending a book.

ANSWER: The Church ENCOURAGEES Bible readings, and studies, but does not promote "private interpretation" over the Magisterium of the Church. The Church has authority in matters of faith, given to it by Christ; First to Peter, as the head hauncho of the early church, and then passed down through the Church to this very day. Apostolic Succession is was it is called. Our lineage can be traced directly back to Peter through secular and Church history. (Believe me, I checked!!)

I know you believe this to be so. But I checked too. I find that the church has *two* lists..and that neither can go as far back as Peter. It is the Roman Catholic' Church's claim and nothing more...

I find in the Scriptures--no sign that the apostles were Roman Catholic, or that they practiced a Mass or that they adored Mary as higher than any other man or woman.

Romanism doesn't seem to be apparent until 300 A.D. or so. Correct me if I am wrong....

ANSWER: Yes, I used to be involved in many Protestant Bible studies, and find they always lead to division, confusion, anger and uncertainty. Why? Because there is no Magisterium, or central authority, to set the record straight. Scripture actually warns us against wrangling over words. And in Peter, "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

I am always perplexed by this....do you think that the Catholic Magisterium is somehow *not* interpreting Scripture privately?

ANSWER: Yes, the Bereans were checking O.T. scriptures concerning the prophetic fullfillment of Messiah. And whether or not they checked, and no matter what they thought, St. Paul and St. Peter had "authority" given to them by God. The Apostles were given divine authority and direction in matters of faith. Great for the Bereans, but so what?

Yes--I agree that the apostles were given authority by God. They prove themselves through prophecy and miracles that they performed in God's name. Everything they taught was written for us. They knew it was necessary., and even in their day., there were others who were trying to pass off false writings and teachings as being from Paul. Paul then warns the churches not to accept any teaching that doesn't come from his lips directly or that isn't in his handwriting.

ANSWER: No you are incorrect. Jesus instituted a visible authoritative Church, one which grievances could be aired and decided. He instituted a Church with the power to forgive or retain sins. (See John, Chapter 20:23). He gave the Shepherd's Mantle to Peter and no one else! He gave the keys to Peter, and no one else! Those keys were passed down from the Church's first leader, Peter, to Clement, and on and on. (I can provide you a list of the succession if you are interested.)

There is necessarily a church of a physical nature that we can come to. There is church government to help the people get along and a place where believers can gather and worship. God does want the faithful to come together in a physical manner. But that can be accomplished--and is accomplished all over the world. With God's holy Word--we can function as individual churches just as they did in the early days. But there is no reason to assume it has to be of the Roman Catholic nature. My church follows the apostolic teachings and our form of government within our community of believers is guided by the New Testament.

ANSWER: I am sorry that you were not catechized better as a young person. I don't mean that facetiously but you apparently did not have very good instruction in the faith.

I was raised in an Irish-Catholic home and my Grandfather was an important deacon at my church. I made my Holy Communion and Confirmation and was married in the Church. Two of my five children were baptised Catholic as well. But I just never believed any of the tenents of the faith like confession or purgatory. I believed that if God was real, he could hear me and he knew my heart. I hated church and by the time I was seventeen, I refused to go there anymore. I basically lived as a secular girl who believed in a woman's right to choose and the theory of evolution as fact. There was no way God could be the way church said, in my opinion.

Then when I was older and my mom had passed, I became somewhat spiritual and I set on a journey to discover the meaning of life. To make a long story short--I wasn't interested in church or the Bible., I was more interested in the New Age movement and I was looking at non-Christian ideas. After a long journey, God called my attention to His Holy Word and in a moment, I was convicted that His Word is truth. Since then, the Scriptures are all I want in my spiritual life, and God guides me through them. This journey did not lead me back to the Catholic Church. It has shown me the error of many religions. Believe me when I say that I did not ask for any of this, nor did I have something against the Catholic Church. I just found a better and more satisfying understanding of God and all my questions are answered in His Word.

I can see that you are as passionate as I am about your faith and discoveries. I would like to continue to discuss these things with you..if Paul doesn't ban me first..but I need to stop here because I too, seem to be writing a book. I have copied your post and will finish my respnse later on..

Thanks Gail, for your civility : )

God Bless, Susan (aka..,Faith)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003

Answers

Hi Faith, rather than cut and paste your answer to MY answer, as this is getting tedious, I just wanted to respond to some of the high points, but first let me say that I am ever so happy for your finding Christ!

First, I am going to prove to you that Peter really WAS considered to be the primary leaader of the early Church. I can prove this to you, not because of some historian who "says its so," but because literally VOLUMES AND VOLUMES of church father writings are available on-line (and NOT at a Catholic website), and is part of the public domain.

Proving Peter as the Chief Dude is vitally important as it unlocks the mystery of "Just who or what is the Catholic Church."

Here are just a few quotes taken for the Ante-Nicene Church Father writings on Peter:

" '...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?" Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae(Primacy text),4(A.D. 251),in NE,228-229

"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail..." Origen,Commentary on John,5:3(c.A.D. 232),in ANF,X:347

"Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church..." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,11:3(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VIII:64

"...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others..." Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,2:14 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:115

"Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer." Augustine,Psalmus contr Partem Donati (A.D. 393),in GILES,182

"Peter bore the person of the church" Augustine, Sermon 149:7(inter A.D. 391-430),in SPP,69

"It was right indeed that he(Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches." Ambrosiaster,Commentary on Galatians,PL 17:344 (A.D. 384),in SPP,62

" 'Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church', Wherefore where Peter the Church is..." Ambrose,Commentary on the Psalms,40:30 (AD 395),in DOP,184

"At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church." Ambrose,Commentary on the Psalms,43:40(AD 397),in GILES,145

"...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church." Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15(A.D. 337),in SPP,58

"In order that he may show his power, God has endowed none of his disciples with gifts like Peter. But, having raised him with heavenly gifts, he has set him above all. And, as first disciple and greater among the brethren, he has shown, by the test of deeds, the power of the Spirit. The first to be called, he followed at once....The Saviour confided to this man, as some special trust, the whole universal Church, after having asked him three times 'Lovest thou me?'. And he receive the world in charge..." Asterius,Homily 8(A.D. 400),in GILES,145-146

"Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church." Basil,In Isaias,2:66(A.D. 375),in SPP,55

"Peter is again called 'the coryphaeus of the Apostles" Basil of Seleucia,Oratio 25(ante A.D. 468),in FOC,II:49

"[B]ut that great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the authority in faith and priesthood. Tell us therefore, tell us we beg of you, Peter, prince of the Apostles, tell us how the churches must believe in God." Cassian John,Contra Nestorium,3:12(A.D. 430),in SPP,61

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith..." Council of Chalcedon,Session III (A.D. 451),in NPNF2,XIV:259-260

"He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it,as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd." Cyril of Alexandria,Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428),in SPP,74

"(Peter)The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples." Chrysostom John,Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407),in SEP,74

"Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who recieved revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey" Chrysostom John, De Eleemosyna,3:4(ante A.D. 407),in SEP,74 "[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built." Epiphanius, In Ancorato,9:6 (A.D. 374),in SPP,in 57

"Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter(Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures." Ephraim, Homily 4:1,(A.D. 373),JUR,I:11

"And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail' Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273

"...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid..." Firmilian,Epistle To Cyprian,Ep 75(74):17(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:394 "Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church." Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 32:18(A.D. 380),in SPP,56

"The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles...he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church." Gregory of Nyssa,Panegyric on St. Stephen,3(ante A.D. 394),in SPP,56

"[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all." Pacian,To Sympronianus,Epistle 3:2(AD 372),in GILES,123

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness.'Peter, the apostle, who is the rock and support of the Catholic Church' " Paschasinus, Council of Chalcedon,Session III(A.D. 451)in NPNF,XIV:259-260

"You know that the Lord proclaims in the Gospel: 'Simon, Simon, behold:Satan has desired to possess you,so that he might sift you like wheat. But I have prayed for you,that your faith may not fail. And you,once you have converted, confirm your brethren!'(Lk 22:31- 32). Consider that the truth could not have lied,nor will the faith of Peter be able to be shaken or changed forever. For, although the devil desired to sift all the disciples,the Lord testifies that He Himself asked for Peter alone,and wished that the others be confirmed my him;and to Peter also was committed the care of 'feeding the sheep'(John 21:15);and to him also did the Lord hand over the 'keys of the kingdom of heaven'(Matthew 16:19),and upon him did He promise to 'build His Church' (Matthew 16:18);and He testified that 'the gates of Hell would not prevail against it' (Matthew 16:19)." Pelagius II(Pope),Quod Ad Dilectionem(c.A.D. 685),in DNZ(246),95

"We exhort you, honourable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part,for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome." Peter Chrysologus,Epistle 25 of Leo from Peter(A.D. 449),in SPP,215

"There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine,according to due order,is his successor and holds his place..." Philip,Council of Ephesus,Session III (A.D. 431),in NPNF,XIV:223

"...the most firm rock, who(Peter) from the principal Rock recieved a share of his virtue and his name" Prosper of Aquitaine,The Call of All Nations,2:28(A.D. 426),in SPP,71

"Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...' " Tertullian,On the Prescription Against the Heretics,22(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:253

"If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Ghost, hastened to the great Peter in order that he might carry from him the desired solution of difficulties to those at Antioch who were in doubt about living in conformity with the law, much more do we, men insignificant and small, hasten to your apostolic see in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the churches. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many privileges." Theodoret of Cyrus,To Pope Leo,Epistle 113(A.D. 449),in NPNF2,III:293

******

This quote by St. Augustine is sharp and to the point. He lists the names of the popes in succession. Augustine, respected by both Catholics and Protestants:

"For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: 'Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !' The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found. But, reversing the natural course of things, the Donatists sent to Rome from Africa an ordained bishop, who, putting himself at the head of a few Africans in the great metropolis, gave some notoriety to the name of "mountain men," or Cutzupits, by which they were known." Augustine,To Generosus,Epistle 53:2(A.D. 400),in NPNF1,I:298

Faith, I could literally OVERWHELM you with quotes, and I apologize if I have already done that. The weight of evidence supporting the Catholic church's claims is by all means STAGGERING.

You can go to ccel.org (non-denominational) and read the writings of Augustine, Clement, Polycarp, Athanasius AND the writings of Luther, Calvin, etc. But to read the writings of the DISCIPLES OF THE DISCIPLES is SUCH A JOY, and an eye-opener.

I will supply quotes confirming the oral traditional teachings of Catholocism on such things as Mary, purgatory, the Eucharist IS A BIGGIE.

Love,

Gail

P.S. These quotes were compiled and categorized by Joseph Gallegos, whose site is found at http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/rock.htm.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003.

The early church on the "Visibility of the Church." FAITH, CHECK OUT THE DATES! Only one of these quotes are post-300's, and I left it in because it was made by Athanasius!

"Now all these [heretics] are of much later date than the bishops to whom the apostles committed the Churches; which fact I have in the third book taken all pains to demonstrate. It follows, then, as a matter of course, that these heretics aforementioned, since they are blind to the truth, and deviate from the [right] way, will walk in various roads; and therefore the footsteps of their doctrine are scattered here and there without agreement or connection. But the path of those belonging to the Church circumscribes the whole world, as possessing the sure tradition from the apostles, and gives unto us to see that the faith of all is one and the same ... And undoubtedly the preaching of the Church is true and stedfast, in which one and the same way of salvation is shown throughout the whole world. For to her is entrusted the light of God; and therefore the "wisdom" of God, by means of which she saves all men, 'is declared in [its] going forth; it uttereth [its voice] faithfully in the streets, is preached on the tops of the walls, and speaks continually in the gates of the city.' For the Church preaches the truth everywhere, and she is the seven-branched candlestick which bears the light of Christ.

Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth ... not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,5:20 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547-8

"I shall at once go on, then, to exhibit the peculiarities of the Christian society, that, as I have refuted the evil charged against it, I may point out its positive good. We are a body knit together as such by a common religious profession, by unity of discipline, and by the bond of a common hope. We meet together as an assembly and congregation, that, offering up prayer to God as with united force, we may wrestle with Him in our supplications. This violence God delights in. We pray, too, for the emperors, for their ministers and for all in authority, for the welfare of the world, for the prevalence of peace, for the delay of the final consummation. We assemble to read our sacred writings, if any peculiarity of the times makes either forewarning or reminiscence needful. However it be in that respect, with the sacred words we nourish our faith, we animate our hope, we make our confidence more stedfast; and no less by inculcations of God's precepts we confirm good habits." Tertullian,Apology,39:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:46

"To sum up all in one word--what the soul is in the body, that are Christians in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world. The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible." Letter to Diognetus,6:1(A.D. 200),in ANF,I:27

"You may learn, if you will, the crowning wisdom of the all-holy Shepherd and Instructor, of the omnipotent and paternal Word, when He figuratively represents Himself as the Shepherd of the sheep. And He is the Tutor of the children. He says therefore by Ezekiel, directing His discourse to the elders, and setting before them a salutary description of His wise solicitude: 'And that which is lame I will bind up, and that which is sick I will heal, and that which has wandered I will turn back; and I will feed them on my holy mountain.' Such are the promises of the good Shepherd. Feed us, the children, as sheep. Yea, Master, fill us with righteousness, Thine own pasture; yea, O Instructor, feed us on Thy holy mountain the Church, which towers aloft, which is above the clouds, which touches heaven." Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,I:9(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:230-1

"We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the 'pillar and ground of truth'; in which, as a whole,is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe,'Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.' " Origen, Commentary on Matthew,Tract 30 (A.D. 244),in FOC,194-195

"Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,--when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated." Cyprian,Unity of the Church,5(A.D. 256),in ANF,V:423

" 'A city built upon a mountain cannot be hid' The light, or lamp of Christ, is not now to be hidden under a bushel, nor to be concealed by any covering of the synagogue,but, hung on the wood of the Passion, it will give an everlasting light to those that dwell in the church. He also admonishes the apostles to shine with like splendour, that by the admiration of their deeds, praise may be given to God." Hilary of Poitiers,Commentary on Matthew,5:13(A.D. 355),in FOC,196-7

" 'And his throne as the sun before me.' Understand, by the 'throne' of Christ, the Church; for in it he rests. The Church of Christ, then, he says, shall be refulgent and enlighten all under heaven, and be abiding as the sun and the moon. For this passage says so: 'His throne as the sun beforeme, and as the moon perfect forever, and a faithful witness in heaven.' " Athanasius,Exposition in the Psalms,88 (ante A.D. 373),in FOC,197

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003.

Faith,

Thanks for responding. I understand your predicament! Can't concentrate with little ones whirling around your legs.

Take your time, and

God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003.

"I just have a house full of little kids right now and I can't give your post the attention it deserves. I will sit down later to do so though---"

Thanks for believing her when she says this, Gail. These things take lots of time, sometimes years, sometimes just weeks. Sometimes things can fall into place within minutes; one never knows the comings and goings of the Holy Ghost.

Gail's good with the early Church fathers, Faith, so lend her a listen when you have the chance; the teacher also always comes away the learner as well. There are no losers in the pursuit of truth.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 29, 2003.

Here is a quote from Clement, who was head of the Church after Linus. Notice the date. Notice he is exercising authority. Notice the Church at Rome is pre-eminent.

"The Church of God which sojourns in Rome to the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth....If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome [regn. c A.D.91-101],1st Epistle to the Corinthians,1,59:1 (c.A.D. 96),in JUR,I:7,12

"Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate..." Victor I [regn A.D. 189-198],in Eusebius EH,24:9,in NPNF2,I:242-243

"Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid...Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" Stephen I [regn A.D. 254- 257], Firmilian to Cyprian,Epistle 74/75:17(A.D. 256).in ANF,V:394

*****

"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. " Clement of Rome,The First Epistle of Clement,5(c.A.D. 96),in ANF,I:6

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Romans,4(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:75

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter,fragment in Eusebius' Church History,II:25(c.A.D. 178),in NPNF2,I:130

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome,and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:1:1(c.A.D. 180),in ANF,I:414

"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History,VI:14,6(A.D. 190), in NPNF2,I:261

****

I am really at a loss as to what more proof I can offer for the primacy of Peter. We see Jesus giving Peter the keys. We see Jesus giving Peter the Shepherd's Mantle. We see from the writings of the fathers that Peter was pre-eminent. The "Church at Rome" had authority and USED IT. We know that Peter and Paul went to Rome and that Peter was martyred in Rome early in the Church's history. Obviously, the Church was in its embryonic stages and didn't have time to write papal directives and encyclicals, nor did it have the need to. The Church grew and expanded and addressed needs "as the need arose."

****

The Church, in its early stages, grew at an unprecedented speed, during which persecutions of epic proportions were facing these great men of God. Most, if not all of the leaders of the early Church were martyred for their faith. And yet we have their writings that give us glimpses of their lives and their faith.

****

Faith, do you know how your N.T. canon was assembled, by whom and when? Do you know that it was not canonized officially until the councils of Carthage and Hippo in 397 and the early 400's. Prior to that time, the Apostolic letters and other Church Father writings floated from church to church and were read at mass? Do you know it was Catholic Bishops under the headship of St. Augustine who directed that council. How can you trust that those Catholic Bishops were guided by the Holy Spirit? Did you know that Protestant Bibles today contain 7 books LESS than what was canonized at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage?

Gotta run, Good night, and God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003.

Here a few quotes on the folly of "Private Interpretation apart from the Authority of the Church . . . the early Church."

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199),in ANF,I:508

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: LET THEM PRODUCE THE ORIGINAL RECORDS OF THEIR CHURCHES; LET THEM UNFOLD THE ROLL OF THEIR BISHOPS, RUNNING DOWN IN DUE SUCCESSION FROM THE BEGINNING IN SUCH A MANNER THAT [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men, ùa man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the apostles. FOR THIS IS THE MANNER IN WHICH THE APOSTOLIC CHURCHES TRANSMIT THEIR REGISTERS; AS THE CHURCH OF SMYRNA, WHICH RECORDS THAT POLYCARP WAS PLACED THEREIN BY JOHN; as also the church of Rome,

"WHICH MAKES CLEMENT TO HAVE BEEN ORDAINED IN LIKE MANNER BY PETER."

In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been APPOINTED TO THEIR EPISCOPAL PLACES BY APOSTLES, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind. For after their blasphemy, what is there that is unlawful for them (to attempt)? But should they even effect the contrivance, they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles, will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory, so the apostolic men would not have inculcated teaching different from the apostles, unless they who received their instruction from the apostles went and preached in a contrary manner. To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian,On Prescription against the Heretics,32 (c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:258

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; OPPOSING THE DIVINE TRADITION BY HUMAN TEACHINGS, in order to establish the heresy." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,7:16 (post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:553-554

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying:'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [ie., the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, NOR LEAVE THE ORIGINAL TRADITION OF THE CHURCH nor believe otherwise than WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY THE SUCCESSION IN THE CHURCH OF GOD." Origen, Homilies on Matthew,Homily 46,PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254),in CON,392

You see, Faith, Protestantism and it's notion of "I can interpret scripture however I feel lead," was ANATHEMA by the EARLY Church. There was a succinct "line of Bishops" who authority to teach. The Church was even then at this early stage a single "unit."

I promise I won't post more until you come back,

Good night again,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2003.

"There is no record of Peter ever having been Bishop of Rome"

I found these quotes on Catholic Answers. I have not checked them:

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (Optatus- The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Augustine-Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [Council of Ephesus-A.D. 431]).

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Council of Chalcedon-Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]).

see: http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

Hope they aid the discussion

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Was Peter in Rome? See: http://www.catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Faith,
I'll look for you, but you do know that Christ told Peter he as the head of the Church in the Gospels, that is probably the most contemporay account you could possibly get. I think you may be in denial here. For what reason I do not know....

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Faith,
How's this:

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Irenaeus--Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Faith, Are you asking then how do we know that Christ formed the Catholic Church? I guess I am getting confused. What, exactly, are you after again?

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

We see then that Faith thinks that at a certain juncture, when a Roman emperor lifted the persecutions of Christians (Catholics) in Rome, and was himself converted; THIS HAPPENED:

1.) The Church came up out of the catacombs.
2.) The Holy Spirit abandoned the Church forever, and Christ BROKE His promises to her.
3.) The whole world became a pagan Church, or ''the universal pagan religion of the Popes''.
4.) A few nail- biting, Bible-reading Christians hung around waiting for 1500 A.D.; (waited 15 centuries.) and started the Christian faith, complete with KJV Bibles.
5.) The Catholic Church, meanwhile, lasted a near total 2,000 years-- and never had faith in Jesus any longer.

Yes-- That's Faith's 'faith''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2003.

No, no, Eugene...Christ's church is alive and well...it just isn't limited to any earthly religion or institution...

Nonsense, Christ made an earthly religion and institution. It hasn't gone anywhere.

In Christ
Bill Nelson

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Ditto, Bill Nelson--
And to faith, who said, ''No, no, Eugene...Christ's church is alive and well...it just isn't limited to any earthly religion or institution.''

Reply: If that's true, ''faith', then you are under the Pope's authority. He is Christ's Vicar on earth. His authority isn't limited either. Christ's Holy Church is no ''earthly religion or institution.'' Christ the Son of God is her founder; and YES. The Catholic Church is alive and well.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2003.

-

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2003.

Hi Faith,

Well I'm sorry that I have not provided you with enough information to prove my case.

I would like to respectufully say however, that it seems you are making your judgments with dual standards.

On the one hand, when it comes to the issue of proving the Catholic Church of today is the organic outgrowth of the Pentecostal church, the bar is so high that no one would be able to reach it.

But then on the other hand when it comes to proving that the N.T. scriptures are truly canonical, the bar is so low as to be based on nothing more than a subjective feeling.

God Bless you and have a Happy New Year,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Faith, we know from Titus 1:5 and other passages that "appointments" were made as to Bishops and deacons. Those appointments continued as is so clear from the above that you literally have to be willfully blind not to see it. We don't have every single thing written about Jesus, nor do we have every single writing of the fathers. But what we do have is insurmountable. So we know from scripture that "appointments" were made. Pastors were not self-proclaimed. They were not "voted in" and "voted out." How was your pastor selected?

As a Protestant, whatever church you attend is not connected to the Church Christ formed. As we can see from Protestant history, every single denomination splits over and over and over again. When a Protestant church is formed, it is healthy in the beginning, thriving on God and the Bible, but 30 years down the line it resembles NOTHING of its prototype. Right now, Protestantism is having to deal with the greatest influx of heretics it has ever seen, ranging from teachers such as Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin (now deceased) to Marilyn Hickey, Creflo Collar, and on and on. There is no one to stop them. Heartbreakingly, they are leading millions of people astray.

But you know what, Faith, every single one of these false teachers can prove their theories from the Bible, and every single one of their followers "just feel the Holy Spirit's presence." Sure, perhaps your church may outlive you, and then again it may not. I have attended some 5 Protestant churches over the past 25 years. One of them is gone, two of them are way "off the beaten path," and one of them got caught up in the seeker sensitive movement and has hence become unrecognizable as a church but instead resembles a Harley Davidson headquarters.

Yet we are commanded by scripture to attend Church. Christ commands us to submit to the authority of the Church. In Protestantism, if you don't like the authority of one church, you just go down the street to the other. So "church hopping" becomes the game people play. Rarely does any Protestant stay in the same church for a lifetime. I think the average is 2 to 3 years.

You know I just can't believe that Protestantism is what Christ had in mind. Divisions, divisions, divisions. How can that be when Paul warns against such? How can that be when Christ prayed "that they all be one?"

There is only one "logical" answer, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!" The Catholic Church is older THAN ANY OTHER INSTITUTION. Why? Because the hand of God has divinely guided it through the roughest waters in human history. This can only be the work of Jesus . . . it's divine!

Even so, comes Lord Jesus,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Um... It looks like this is well trod territory see: http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a066.html

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Today there is the Traditional Catholic sect and the post Vatican II sect.

This too will pass. In 50 years there still will be one Catholic Church, in 1,000 years (if Christ doesn't come), there will still be one Catholic Church. Sorry if this disappoints you, but you see, we have Christ's guarantee of this, and so far, in 2,000 years, He has been faithful to His Word.

In Christ
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Hi Faith,

You said, "How is it that you can't see that the Catholic Church also has its fair share of trouble? All earthly religions will. It is our fallen nature. Even the papacy has had much conflict and trouble." ANSWER: You are absolutely right, the Church is full of sinners, has had sinful popes, and yet . . . somehow she still stands INSPITE of sinful people. Why? Jesus of course.

Then you said, "Then you have the great schism that divided the church into eastern and western orthodoxies... Today there is the Traditional Catholic sect and the post Vatican II sect." ANSWER: The Catholic Church is NOT a sect and there are no sects within it. It is THE Church. People have left THE Church and created schisms, and/or cults. But THE Church still stands. It does not dissolve, and will not dissolve. Protestant sects dissolve one by one until under sect springs up to take its place, more incorrect in doctrine than its predecessor. What we see has happened to the Anglicans will eventually happen to the Orthodox if they do not reunite to THE Church.

You said, "Jesus protects us from division--spiritually, because there will always be trouble on the earth. The Catholic Church has far from been free from error.....and sometimes--especially during the middle ages-- she has been guilty of horrific crimes." ANSWER: No Jesus does NOT protect Protestants from division as is quite apparent. Paul makes it abundantly clear that creating schisms is a big-time NO NO. Jesus DOES direct the Catholic Church and protects and guides her as He has always done. If it seems she is going astray, one only has to be patient to see that His hand will guide her. There was evil in the Middle Ages, but there was also much good. That is even more proof of THE Church's divine constitution. Inspite of wicked people in the Church, SHE STILL IS! The faithful lay people, the faithful monks and nuns were still busy doing the business of God, i.e., feeding the poor, building hospitals, building orphanages all during the Middle Ages.

You said: "We definately need saving. And don't think that I don't recognize that protestant religions have been just as guilty of some horrific things themselves." ANSWER: Did you know that thanks to Martin Luther 100,000 Catholic peasants died across Europe, particularly Germany? Then the subsequent wars sparred by Calvin lead to even more bloodshed. Protestantism has a bloody past which not too many Protestants ever seem to want to talk about. But that is not proof that it is man-made. The fact that every sect DISSOLVES eventually is proof that her structure is NOT built on the foundation of the APOSTLES, as is THE Church.

The thing about Protestantism that bugged me is that everything is so subjective. One church teaches once-saved always saved, based on the Bible of course. One church teaches you have to speak-in-tongues if you're filled with the Holy Spirit, according to scripture. One church teaches you can lose your salvation, according to scripture, of course. One church teaches that baptism is not for today, according to scripture. One church teaches either your destined for heaven, or not. God chooses, you have nothing to say about it, according to scripture. And the real topper is this "If you are a Christian, you should be HEALTHY AND WEALTHY, and if you're not, there's something wrong with your faith, according to scripture. I could go on and on and on.

What have the illiterate peoples of the world done for the past 20,000 years? They HEARD the Bible read to them at mass, day after day. They saw the gospel proclaimed on the walls of the Church. They meditated on the mysteries of Christ.

How does an illiterate person find a church if there are dozens of Protestant sects to choose from? My goodness, in this country, with all the heretics preaching from Protestant pulpits, that could be quite dangerous. One would have to learn how to read, study scripture for say 5 to 10 years, in order to be equipped to find a healthy, well-balanced church!

Gotta run,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Boy, I've got typos all over the place up there. But the big one was 20,000 years instead of 2,000. I hope you read past the rest!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Maybe Faith will back this statement up with proof--? ? ?

''Jesus doesn't protect any religion, he didn't even like religion while he was on the earth.''

It seems Faith is reading different gospels from the ones I read. In all four gospels, Jesus is a regular preaching in the synagogues. He was teaching and asking questions of the priests and teachers in the Temple of Jerusalem at age twelve! likens the Temple to his own body; the feasts of his people are his own feasts. ''But He didn't LIKE religion'' ? ? ? Is this a sane thing to suggest ? - -HOW ABOUT PROOF ? ? ?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2003.

Faith, you said "Jesus doesn't protect any religion.., he didn't even like religion while he was on the earth."

SAY WHAT? He was a NAZARITE! He was circumcised. He taught in the temples. He fullfilled custom AFTER JEWISH CUSTOM. You may not know this, but Judaism is a RELIGION! If he didn't like religion, then why did he submit to every RELIGIOUS custom and tradition of HIS RELIGION? If Jesus "doesn't like religion," then why did God establish the Old Covenant with its laws and regulations? Why did He establish feast days? Why did He direct the building of the temple?

Jesus came to "fulfill the law." His words, not mine.

Christ instituted a governing, authoritative Church, of which you and many others have rebelled.

Respectfully,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Not all of the religious leaders were hypocrites. Jesus' scathing remarks were concerning their flaunting of their positions of authority while their hearts were cold. It had nothing to do with their "religion," which was instituted by God in the Old Testament. If Christ were scathing about their "religion" He would have been scathing its founder, His Father, God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

Religion without relationship, or faith, is null and void, but we are talking about the Church that Christ instituted, a Living Institution. God is a God of order, not confusion, and confusion is what you have in Protestantism; confusion and division.

If Protestantism had been instituted by Christ, it would not be in the state of mayhem that it is. Denominations would not dissolve. Faith, just so you will understand, I have bros and sisses in Protestanism that I love dearly, and whom know Christ. I see them floundering from one bad experience to another, from one church to another. I see them carried away by doctrines of demons. And my heart aches for them. I have no grudge with you personally, nor with them, but only with the institution of "Protestantism."

I said it above, and I'll say it again, the N.T. shows "appointments" being made. Those appointments continued and still continue today in THE Church, NOT Protestantism. Whatever Protestant sect you are in cannot claim apostolic succession. The Church formed at Pentecost did not die out in the first century, which is what you must believe in order to sustain your existence as a Protestant church.

Protestant, the root word being "Protest." The lifeblood of Protestantism is PROTEST; protesting the Church, protesting each other, protesting the pastor if he doesn't "meet the needs of the people," and on and on it goes.

God Bless,

Gail

P.S. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

"I think in fulfilling the law.., Jesus freed us from religion. He set us free from the law."

Not according to Scripture:

"Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled." --from Matthew 5, 17 and 18.

"He found the religious leaders of His day to be nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites who favored their tradition and rituals over the Word of God."

I don't think that's it. Remember Who established those traditions and rituals in the first place. If you look at Catholicism closely, it is truly the fulfillment of all that was promised to the Jews. Catholicism in so many ways is the new and eternal Israel.

You can't broadbrush all the past Jewish leaders into a mass hypocracy because of their rituals which were established by God Himself. This would, in a certain sense, call God into question. What makes more sense is to call those leaders hypocrites who did not even understand their own traditions and rituals, and used them to lord it over others to their own self-benefit and personal gain. Much of it had to do with prestige and honor in the sight of others; see the whole of Matthew Chapter 5.

Look at Simeon; the meaning of Jewish ritual and tradition was certainly not lost on this man. He certainly wasn't a righteous man because he forsake tradition and ritual... He was righteous and therefore understood the ritual and tradition, and all that it prefigured. When the time for fulfillment came, he didn't miss recognizing it. What better man to preside of over Christ's Presentation in the Temple, which was certainly not a forsaking of tradition and ritual.

It's the people calling everyone else fools that are the hypocrites. Read Matthew 5 in it's entirety.

The law is still in force. Understanding it is a matter of the heart. That's what imho it means in Matthew 11 when it says this:

"Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is sweet and my burden light."

In a lot of ways, Catholicism is the fullness of Judaism, to borrow a term. And use it properly.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 31, 2003.

"Not all of the religious leaders were hypocrites. Jesus' scathing remarks were concerning their flaunting of their positions of authority while their hearts were cold. It had nothing to do with their "religion," which was instituted by God in the Old Testament. If Christ were scathing about their "religion" He would have been scathing its founder, His Father, God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth."

Hey! We posted at the same time Gail, and see that, Faith? There it is. There's a valid distinction to be made, and Gail makes it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), December 31, 2003.

Faith, please view the thread I made of ONLY the earliest of quotes, mostly 1st century, some 2nd century on various Catholic doctrine, the Eucharist is the most substantial. It took FOREVER. My eyeballs are falling out.

Great points, Em, and some of them I made too. What's that they say, "Great minds . . . "

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

Hi Faith, I direct you, please, to the thread I created specifically for you of only 1st and 2nd century quotes, particular on the Eucharist. You can see that the doctrine of transubstantiation was well entrenched.

Also you said, "In a way, I see the Catholic Church almost like I see the Jewish religion. You haven't trusted that Christ can save you and fully forgive you of your sin because of what He has done." ANSWER: That is pure HOGWASH! Christ IS saving us, and will continue saving us, IF we are faithful to the end, just like scripture says over and over and over again.

Then you said, "You offer up more and more sacrifice for every new sin...and it must be insufficient if you have to keep on doing it.., just as the Jews did." ANSWER: We are ALWAYS under the blood of Christ IF WE REMAIN IN HIM. We are commanded to confess our sins by scripture. We are commanded to celebrate the Eucharist by Christ in scripture. His sacrifice was made once for all, but we re-enter that Passion every Sunday at mass.

We need a continual bath in the blood of Christ, not just a one time altar prayer and then "By golly I got my one way ticket to heaven," which is an absolute heresy that wasn't invented until the late 1800's and 1900's.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

Yes, Faith I have studied the Book of Hebrews. I have been studying the scriptures for 30 years now.

I am not following your point at all. Are you saying we only need to repent once? The passage you have pointed to has a variety of different interpretations. Your interpretation is but one of many.

As I said earlier if you read my post, we re-enter the Passion every Sunday. Christ was crucified once, yes, we Catholics know that.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

Faith, everything you said is based on your opinion. It is not based on scripture, nor the historical church's teaching on salvation. Didn't you read the quotes from the EARLY EARLY church on salvation by faith AND WORKS? You cannot divide the two, because "even the demons believe, and tremble."

Particularly, you said this: "This is not to say that when we slip-up and sin, that we shouldn't come before God and confess..and we also need to go to those people involved...but this is not for salvation. Salvation is received the moment we repent and confess Christ is Lord!"

Here are some of the scriptural requirements for salvation:

Mt 10:22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the ONE WHO HAS ENDURED TO THE END WHO WILL BE SAVED.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for AS LONG AS YOU PRACTICE THESE THINGS, you will never stumble for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 Corinthians 15: 1-2 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FAST THE WORD WHICH I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1 John 1:9 IF WE CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION IN FEAR AND TREMBLING!

Revelations 22: 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

Jesus Himself says that those who do not ABIDE or remain in Him are cast into the fire and destroyed. Additionally, Christ says that the lukewarm will be spewed out of His mouth.

There is no such thing as "eternal presumption" which is a fruit of the late Protestant church's fad doctrines.

Additionally, I might add that the Church teaches that at the moment of Baptism, we are completely cleansed. But then what happens afterwards? All of us go about soiling the white robe that the Lord gave us at Baptism. What do we do then? We confess our sins from a repentent heart. Living a constant life of repentence is the true way of the believer, turning to our Lord always, keeping our eyes focused on Him. Going to Him for a continual cleansing.

If we committed no sin after Baptism, why then your beliefs could be true, but we don't. Then begins the process of sanctification, being made whole, being made perfect. Perfection does not happen all at once, but it is a journey that requires our cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

Excellent post, Gail!
Christ is truly working through you as His faithful servant. May He continue always to bless you and clear every path for you; Happy New Year! Happy New Year also to ''Faith''-- and may Jesus Christ move heaven and earth to recover you, a lost lamb in the wilderness.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.

God Bless you Eugene!!!

Gail

P.S. Oh you guys are the Balm of Gilead to me this week!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 02, 2004.