This may be a strange question, but I have to ask. What is the Catholic belief in spirits? By spirits, I mean someone who is dead, but still hanging around for some reason. Here's why I ask: A friend of mine,Jessica, says she has a ghost in her house. They see a black shadow that goes from room to room and blocks out all the light when it passes. Her great-grandfather committed suicide in her house about 7 years ago. Her son Matt, who is 6, has never met him, but he talks about his great-great-grandfather as if he knows him and describes what he looked like.

We would like to know if it really could be the grandfather's spirit that is still lingering in the house, or is it something else. No one has ever been hurt or felt in danger there. So, they are not scared, they would just like to know what to believe.

A non-Catholic Christian friend says it cannot be her great-grandfather, it is a demonic spirit, since once we die we cannot stay here.

But, Jessica and I are Catholic, so we would really appreciate an answer to this question that corresponds with our belief as Catholics.

Thank you and I hope you all have a Happy & Blessed New Year!

-- Melanie (design465@hotmail.com), December 29, 2003

Answers

Yes, the Catholic Church does recognize the presence of spirits. The word "ghost" comes from the German geist, which means spirit. We believe that there is a spiritual order of beings no less real than the material and, in particular, that the soul of man is a spiritual substance.

Mary and the Saints have appeared to people, but I would describe it as a haunting. As for demons haunting a house.

Demons are seldom subtle about luring one into temptation. They are not apt to appear as simple shadows.

As for someone serving out their purgatory somewhere on earth, who knows? We do know that souls are in purgatory until they serve their time and go to heaven. Some believe that some of these souls come to earth to serve out their purgatory. The Church is silent on the matter. Padre Pio, souls from purgatory visited him to ask for prayers and Masses to be said for them. They could have been angels appearing as a person, or God allowing these people to present themselves to the Padre for intercession. Once time in church, a candlestick fell and got the attention of Padre Pio. When he went to see what was going on, there was a young friar there and he told Padre Pio he had to serve out his purgatory cleaning the altar because when he was alive he had failed at his duty.

However the following is certain: The Church forbids us from seeking out any contact with any familial spirit. Should a friendly spirit seek us out, it might be a message of hope and love from God. Note that such a mission from God would probably not include haunting a house or otherwise making a nuisance of themselves. Such an apparition should always be discussed with a trusted and orthodox priest or spiritual director for discernment.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.[48] Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

"But they were startled and terrified and thought they were seeing a ghost." (Luke 24:37). Doesn't this passage indicate that the belief in ghosts was present among the Apostles? Jesus seems to acknowledge their belief in a subsequent verse, "...Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see that I have." (Luke 24:39).

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 29, 2003.

close italics.

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), December 29, 2003.

Faith,

Thanks for your opinion, but I did ask for only Catholic opinions. You used to be a Catholic, that doesn't count. The reason I requested Catholic responses is because I have a number of non-Catholic Christian friends who gave me the exact same answer as you did. So, I really didn't need any non-Catholic answers since I already know where you stand on the subject. But, thanks for your time anyway.

-- Melanie (design465@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

If by "spirits" you mean the souls of human beings who have died - they have undergone judgment, and are in heaven, hell, or purgatory. They are not wandering about the earth rattling chains "haunting" buildings, or blocking light. On the other hand, there are pure (non-human) created spirits, both good and evil - what we would usually call angels and demons - who have access to this world, and who are capable not only of influencing living human beings on a spiritual and psychological level, but in some cases also interacting on a physical level, either with humans themselves or with other material things. Obviously possession is the most extreme example of such interaction, but many lesser forms are also possible. Since an act of grave evil occurred in your friend's home, it is possible that such an act opened the door to some sort of evil presence. Having the house blessed by a priest would be a good place to start. Keeping holy water on the premises and using it would also be a good idea. But the greatest barrier to evil spiritual influences is a life of personal holiness, especially frequent reception of the Eucharist.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 30, 2003.

In the OT didn't King Saul actually call up the "ghost" of the prophet who rebuked him?

And didn't the Apostles in the New Testament repeatedly fear that Jesus was a "ghost" when he suddenly appeared to them after his resurrection?

So apparently ghosts are possible. I don't profess to understand the metaphysics behind exactly how they appear to the senses (internally or really?) but it's not impossible that a dead human being could - with the agency of some other spirit - appear to the living.

So I suppose that's the real key: the agency of another spirit. Our prayers for the dead aren't problematic - but wishing to see them is as it demands that the separated human soul somehow influence matter again apart from the natural order of things (in which the soul can only truly "inform" it's own body or matter and nothing else).

But angels and demons as spiritual beings (composed of super-human intellect and will) could conceivably affect the chance mutations of particles - creating the physical effects of a dead human. This is high philosophy: angels are "messengers"... just as words are, but they are not themselves the message.

So what is the message of a ghostly apparition? If the vision provokes terror and a sense of dread and gloom - the message may certainly be allowed by God's will to warn a family from the evil that person may have committed - effectively showing that it leads to eternal misery.

Other times people see apparitions of loved ones and the message appears to be one of peace and "closure" - a subtle hint that the soul is at rest in God and that the living should not despair or waste their lives with further self-reproach, etc.

In all this though, of course, you may be visited by either angels or demons and not souls in purgatory at all... so it's always wise to NOT seek to communicate with the apparition.

If I saw such a thing flit by, I'd cross myself, utter a loud prayer blessing the home in the name of Jesus Christ and wishing the soul (if it indeed be a human soul) peace in His name. Otherwise, I'd ask St Michael and Our Lady to escort the spirit back to his abode.

God can make good come from all evil - so a grand-father's suicide could be the turning point for a family to re-commit itself to Christ and to life and hope and love.

Peace

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 30, 2003.

Faith,

I hope by your "Bible only" answers you don't mean to suggest that ALL truth is found in the scripture, and if it's not in the Bible, it's not truth. That would leave out all of the sciences, including mathematics! There are many many things we, as Christians, study that are not in the precious texts of the Bible. If that were the case, we would have no need to send our kids to school, we would just teach them the Bible at home and forget everything else.

Catholics believe the Bible, just like any other Christian, we just have the WHOLE Bible and not an abbreviated form. There is specific mention of purgatory in that part of the Bible Protestants don't have. There is also allusions to purgatory in the N.T. So the writer above has a point about purgatory. The Church does not teach that purgatory is a place, and therefore that final purification could certainly take place in this earth sphere. We just simply do not know.

Nonetheless, the Catechism places a strong emphasis on NOT delving into the occult. Conversing with dead spirits, seances and the like are definitely out of the question according to our Church.

I have lived in homes that I thought were haunted, or perhaps they were demonic manifestations. Don't know. Don't care. Just glad I don't live there anymore!!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

In the OT didn't King Saul actually call up the "ghost" of the prophet who rebuked him?

Yes, in 1 Samuel 28. Saul's experience is a good lession of why we should not fool around with this stuff.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Gail.., I am sure that you realize that even the Catholic Church separates the apocryphal books as second canon.

The deuterocanonical books, (note they are not apocryphal), are part of the canon. It would be wrong to infer from the term that the Church posses two distinct Biblical Canons, there is only one canon. Only in a partial and restricted way may we speak of a first and second Canon. The deuterocanonical (deuteros, "second") are those whose Scriptural character was contested in some quarters, but which long ago gained a secure footing in the Bible of the Catholic Church, though those of the Old Testament are classed by Protestants as the "Apocrypha". These consist of seven books: Tobias, Judith, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Wisdom, First and Second Machabees; also certain additions to Esther and Daniel. Again, all are considered sacred and of full authority.

From the old Catholic Encyclopedia: "...the Council of Trent among its first acts solemnly declared as "sacred and canonical" all the books of the Old and New Testaments "with all their parts as they have been used to be read in the churches, and as found in the ancient vulgate edition". During the deliberations of the Council there never was any real question as to the reception of all the traditional Scripture. Neither--and this is remarkable--in the proceedings is there manifest any serious doubt of the canonicity of the disputed writings. In the mind of the Tridentine Fathers they had been virtually canonized, by the same decree of Florence, and the same Fathers felt especially bound by the action of the preceding ecumenical synod. The Council of Trent did not enter into an examination of the fluctuations in the history of the Canon. Neither did it trouble itself about questions of authorship or character of contents. True to the practical genius of the Latin Church, it based its decision on immemorial tradition as manifested in the decrees of previous councils and popes, and liturgical reading, relying on traditional teaching and usage to determine a question of tradition."

If you really are interested in the history, see:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

Dear Faith,

There has been much controversy over every single book in the N.T. as well. Does that disqualify any of them? There are some within Protestantism today that are seeking RIGHT NOW to have some of the books removed, namely anything that doesn't fit with their agenda. If your logic is followed to its logical conclusion, none of the books of the N.T. belong there because someone, somewhere at some time objected!

Secondly, was Luke an Apostle or prophet? I don't think so, yet his book is in the Bible. Scholars are still fighting about who wrote the book of Hebrews. There is some speculation about who wrote Revelations, and some speculation even about 2nd Peter. Once again, using your logic, several of the books of the N.T. are irrelevant because we don't even know FOR SURE who wrote them!

If you had a Catholic Bible, you would know that the deuteros are intermingled throughout the O.T. and not SEPARATED under the term "Apochrypha" as you stated.

Bottom line is this. The Church guided the CATHOLIC Bishops at the councils of Hippo and Carthage to make a declaratory statement, even though some objected. They wrapped the gavel so to speak much at the direction of Constantine who recognized it was time that something be done definitively. The Reformers came along, UNDER THEIR OWN MANMADE AUTHORITY, and UNDID what the Holy Spirit did at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage.

You make so much out of wanting quotes on this and that from a time period when the gospels themselves were themselves JUST BEING WRITTEN. That is absurd! The Church spent the latter part of the THIRD century hammering out creeds setting forth BASIC Christian doctrine, (much less, secondary matters,) and literally spilling their blood over them. Somehow, you think the Catholic Church is irrelevant because they didn't hold Vatican councils in the first century and write encyclicals on the primacy of Peter. But alas, I guess they were too busy fighting off the Arian heresy which literally threatened to stamp out Christianity altogether to write minutes of every meeting they had.

I'll tell you what really gets to me, Faith. You and your Protestant friends TOTALLY IGNORE the sacrifice of our fathers in the faith, who literally died for the truths we hold dear. You have divorced yourself from the Church of your forefathers, and the Protestant Church goes on divorcing each other every time a new fad doctrine springs up.

Zealous for the TRUTH,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2003.

Actually...the fact that the New Testament stands in spite of human effort to tear it down--is proof of God's providence. I would also be interested in more information on these supposed protestant people looking to have New Testament books removed from the Bible. Whatever their aganda, it would not be an acceptable one, I am sure. What is the religion? ANSWER: They call themselves the "Jesus Seminar." They are liberal theologians of differing denominational lines.

You said, "You may not know for sure who wrote them, because maybe you listen to those who want to challenge things. I don't know--that wouldn't seem like something the Catholic Church would let you do. But I am confident that we have God's Word in our possession exactly as He wants for us to have it. I am also confident that we are accurate in who authored these books. The only book we have no author for is Hebrews...yet, instinctively--we have always known it is the Word of God. Again-God's providence. Luke accompanied Paul.., who was called on by Jesus directly. He was close enough to the moment to be found viable...and he wrote two books. ANSWER: I am not arguing that Luke's gospel isn't the Word of God. You said earlier that all of the books were written by prophets or apostles which is simply not true. Timothy is another one who was not an apostle.

You said, "Well maybe that is true for the Catholic versions today.., but I do know that these books were added to the Old Testament and were not part of the original Hebrew Bible. Prior to the reformation-- a distinction was indeed made." ANSWER: These books were part of the Greek Septuigint and always had been. The Greek Septuigint is the text extant at the time of Christ and the apostles. It is also the text that early (and I mean real early) church quoted from. The deuteros was quoted from quite extensively by the 1st and 2nd generation Christians.

You said, "The way I understand it Gail....the canon was well understood long before Rome decided to give it its stamp of approval. The apocryphal books were always a question--but Rome finally felt the need to insist they be ratified because they needed these books to fight the reformation." ANSWER: I mean no disrespect, Faith, but you keep saying, "I think" or "I understand," as if your subjective feelings should be some sort of an indicator of truth.

Here is the actual text from the Council of Carthage. This text can be found at Bruce Metzger (noted Protestant apologist) website.  Third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

The Third Council of Carthage was not a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below is from Bruce Metzger.

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read. You have been misinformed.

Then you said, "Why is it absurd?..they took the time to write plenty. Nothing they wrote indicates that their church was anything like what Romanism brought to it. Do you know when the church started with penance and pilgrimages and Mary adoration? It was during the time of Constantine..." ANSWER: That simply is not true.

You said, "You couldn't possibly know my friends or how they feel or what they believe, Gail. There were many who died for God's Word., and I revere them all--especially the original apostles., whom I follow explicitly. ANSWER: Sorry, I just assumed that your church friends probably feel such as you do. I would say that I look to the fathers for their interpretation of scripture, as their interpretation of scripture -- since they were closer to the "scene" - -- is infinitely more valuable to me than the modern day heretics of today. You see, one thing that really struck me reading Augustine, Athanasius, Aquinas, etc. is that they never mention that they believe they are in an apostate church. Seems rather odd, don't you think that men of reknown and respect, by both Catholics AND Protestants, never knew a thing of sola scriptura, sola fide, or any of the other goofy doctrines invented by men. But honestly I fear the only reason they are respected by Protesants is because they think that these men "were secretly one of them."

Good night and God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

POINT OF ORDER:

Faith & Gail, I think we all turned this into a thread Melanie did not intend and seemed to ask us to avoid. Please take the interfaith dialoge/debate elsewhere and let Catholics answer Melanie's question as she requested.

Thanks, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmai.com), December 31, 2003.

Yep, you're right Bill. Sorry Melanie. I guess I must have forgotten what thread I was on. I wondered where I made that last post.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.

"You are welcome Melanie...I just thought a biblical perspective would be acceptable to a Catholic. Was that silly of me? What is it you want to hear? ...That when one dies the best we can count on is that we get to hover around the earth scaring our loved ones half to death?? lol!! Does that sound like heaven to you?"

No Faith, what is silly of you is that you come in here and make this a discussion about the 7 books of the Bible that you don’t believe. I believe these books, so I would like answers from people who believe the same as I do. I asked for Catholic answers, but you don’t seem to care. I don’t believe that we will hover around on the earth scaring our loved ones to death. No, that doesn’t sound like heaven to me. But I didn’t ask about heaven. I just wanted to know (from a Catholic perspective) what it could be that my friend is seeing and how her young son can perfectly describe his great-great grandfather he has never seen. That is my question. As I told you in my last post, I have non-Catholic friends that say the same as you. I mean no disrespect to your beliefs, but they do not help me. Everything you say is just repeating the things I’ve already heard. I want to know the Catholic beliefs on the subject. You are not a Catholic, as you have said many times, so go talk to someone who wants to know what a Protestant thinks.

-- Melanie (design465@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.

This thread has two huge problems =====>

"Faith" stuck its fat schnozz where it was specifically forbidden to be by the thread-originator, Melanie.

The Moderator failed to delete Faith's unwelcome remarks -- even after Melanie came back and said that she didn't want any more non-Catholic crud. Consequently, the thread got hijacked by yet more anti-Catholic Fundamentalism.

Melanie seems to be new to the forum. Why should she want to keep coming here, if here threads are going to be treated this way? This place needs an overhauling.

-- Hard to Swallow, but it's (The@Simple.Truth), December 31, 2003.

First of all , I don't belief & I don't belief in spirits , I saw my father (literal) died in front of my eyes , I'll never forget this (!!) , but right after he was just dead , I didn't saw any spirits or whatever appearing !! __ So my question , how does it looks like ?? __ And I don't mean this as a joke , I'm only very curiously !!

I also never have know my great-grandfather (died at the age of 45) , but I've got a pretty good picture of him , based on the words my dad , uncles , aunts , grandmom/dad told me !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 05, 2004.

Laurent,
Re-read the subject of this thread.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

Bill , I did , but I just want to know what she sees ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 05, 2004.

Laurent,
Please respect her request and stay off this thread.

thanks,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 05, 2004.

Melanie,

If you're still checking this thread, just wanted to add that Paul has it right. The Catholic teaching is that we don't linger around the earth to haunt places after death. Any preternatural phenomenon your friend is experiencing can only be the act of a demon. Being extremely intelligent, any demon could describe the great-great grandfather pretending to be his soul. What better way to lower your friend's guard and work its evil on her family. Test the spirits as the Bible says.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), January 22, 2004.

While the last poster is correct in saying purified spirits don't "haunt" the earth in the manner we tend to think about, there is abundant evidence from the tradition of visions of those who have already died. Obviously, everyone is familiar with the visions of Mary and the more well known saints. However, even in less known sources, such as Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People, there are accounts of visions that could also be called hauntings. At the end of Book 4, Chapter 9 of Bede's History, for instance, a nun approaching imminent death had a conversation with her mother superior who had died three years previously. Apparently, the deceased abbess appeared to the dying nun to tell her the hour of her approaching death.

As another example, of more recent vintage, noted Catholic conservative writer Russell Kirk would quite freely talk about the ghosts (he generally presumed they were purgatorial - though he didn't deny the possibility that ghosts could be infernal) that "inhabited" his home in Mecosta, Michigan. Considering that he is widely held to be the father of modern conservatism and was certainly no intellectual slouch (he was, by the way, friends with T.S. Eliot), it would not seem so unreasonable to presume that right thinking people could posit the possibility of such spirits without having to believe that all such spirits are really demons (and without having to assume that all accounts are true).

Nevertheless, as a number of posters have already pointed out, deliberate efforts to contact/control such beings by way of divination, etc. is a grave sin and well worthy of condemnation. I would presume that the best way to handle a situation in which it appears a spirit is approaching an individual is to try and ascertain, as Hamlet asked, where the spirit is coming from.

-- Josh (jaskinner@alumni.avemarialaw.edu), March 03, 2004.

josh, I would contend another possibility entirely:

1) Mary is queen of heaven, and the mother of God. Who knows how God will choose to use her in His plan for our salvation? By all accounts Mary is neither spirit, nor ghost, but living soul.

2) same for saints. Their presence in the form of visions is a bending of rules, and cannot be remotely likened to haunting.

3) From a scientific conjecture standpoint: there are no such things as "actual" ghosts. Namely, what we see does not constitute a sentient being. instead, we look at the possibility of matter "scarring." that is to say, there is a distinct difference between existance and inexistance (its hard to explain, even in total void there is a fabric of creation which allows existance). The extreme emotion inherent in an area may "scar" the fabric of existance. This can be evidenced by cases where people have seen ghosts of themselves... there is no spirit there, but rather a bend or rip in space where something occured involving extreme emotion (think innacurately like a soul burning hot enough to leave an image of itself behind).

This clearly explains the repetitive nature of most 'hauntings' and their presence.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 03, 2004.

Pardon the butting in...but souls are immaterial so can't leave images of themselves behind and "emotions" aren't atomic but phenomena affecting consciousness...thus an angry or blissful human being (body and soul) doesn't imbue a space with any lasting effect in virtue of human nature itself. Our soul can only "inform" it's own body, not another body. To affect matter outside of itself, it requires the body (leaving footprints, etc.) but once the soul leaves the body...that body's effects cease being actuated spiritually. To sustain some "active" presence in space and time that is actively (rather than passively) intelligible you need a superior being such as an angel or demon.

For example: the written word is a passively intelligible effect of both the soul (intelligent) and body (that writes it). But a ghostly apparition isn't a sign or recording of "Boo!". What is experienced is an emotion (crawling skin) and sense of encountering a "thing" which can actively be related to - in a way no one relates to the written word or a stop sign.

Now God can imbue a place with beneficial effects - which is why holy sites are well, holy! But that's because God being creator has wholly different "effects" begining with being itself.

The real distinction with respect to ghosts then is internal, not external: apparitions of ghosts are internal: they occur in our imagination as controlled or guided by spirits superior to our nature (angelos = greek for 'messenger'). Demons and good angels can and do inspire thoughts, emotions, feelings, as well as dreams and imaginations or even hallucinations.

But human beings cannot because our souls are not the same nature as they are: stripped of our body we have no senses (so can't see, hear, touch, taste, smell) and also have no extension and change (no time). Human beings are by nature body and soul. The soul is spiritual and can therefore survive the body: (conceptual thought proves the spiritual nature of soul and spiritual nature is deduced to exist independent of matter and thus can survive its decay...)

But once a man dies his soul has "no where" to go except by grace to heaven (towards what he loves) or by disgrace to hell. There's no process by which a human soul could possibly "navigate" through the cosmos (no eyes, no imagination) or stay in one spot as opposed to another.

So... if you see a ghost it's literally happening in your head but giving the impression of occupying space several yards or feet ahead of you. And it's not human but either angelic or demonic. If it produces fear and dread, it's of hell. If it produces peace and calm, it's heavenly - though as scripture attests, good angels always have to calm down whomever they visit.

So what to do? If you see a ghost and it doesn't wish you peace, then you should wish it peace and "bless it" by invoking the Trinity and bid it depart to its proper place. You should also pray to God to know why you were allowed to be visited. Perhaps someone needs prayers (or maybe you do!)

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), March 04, 2004.

In Scripture, Tradition, mass and the Eucharist we have all we need to do our part towards our salvation. I'd say don't mess with things you don't understand. If it isn't quite clear to you what you are facing, get out. The Lord will understand prudence. The Devil is more clever than I am. Keep with what you know is GOOD, and leave the spirits/demons, whatever, to themselves. Bless yourself and move on.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 04, 2004.

Recently, my friend Nick Shomaker was shot and killed in the basement of his friends home. Saddley enough, his own friend was the one that shot him once in the chest. You may or may not have heard about this story(happend in Ashburn,Virginia). He was a close friend of the family and myself. One night I was really upset over a fight I had with my father, so i started talking to Nick as if he was there. I told him i loved him and missed him and that i hoped he was listening. I told him i really wish he would show up just one last time, i missed him and needed to see him again. I carried on a normal conversation, asked him questions, told him things i hadn't ever before. I started to feel a really wierd sensation that i couldn't explain. I looked left at my wall and there was a blurry white floating object, no face, no body.. Just white, and blurry in the shape of just head and shoulders. My heart started racing, my breathing got heavy, i got REALLY REALLY scared. I told whatever it was to go away and luckily enough, it moved back and went up. I got up out of bed and turned on my light really quickly. I ran downstairs in tears and told my brother all about it. I told Nick's brother the next day the experience i had and he was shocked. I told him, he didn't have to believe me, somtimes i don't even want to believe my self, because until that night, I hadn't even thought about ghosts or spirits. Ever since then, i've slept with my door open and a light on somewhere in the house so that i could see it. My dad continues to ask me why i sleep with the lights on now and if im scared of the dark now. I dont want to explain to him because i dont want him thinking im some crazy ass kid who needs help! All i've said to him, is that i think i saw something. His response is "oh wahhh, theres no ghosts, go to sleep and turn off the lights!" So im sure somewhere deep down he does think im crazy in a way. I know ghosts/spirits can't hurt you, but for some reason, im REALLY afraid.I know i wasn't dreaming, and i definetly know that i saw something.I just wish i knew what it was. Im trying to find somebody who's had the same experience or close to the same experience that i have. I want what i saw to be explained. I definetly think twice now about ghosts. I really do think they're out there, real, they have unfinished business they need to attend to before laying at rest. But thats just my opinion. So about this girls grandfather. He's around cuz hes gotta make sure you and your brother grow up right, he's just watchin' over you, thats all!-Marie

-- Marie (Xangelwidbooti@aol.com), April 30, 2004.

Hi Marie,

I had a rather disturbing experience while sleeping, or partially between sleep and awake. Happened about three weeks ago. It was unpleasent and it jarred me into saying the Rosary for the first time in about 30 years. I used my fingers as I haven't had a Rosary since I was a kid.

I truely don't know if there was any actual, real reason for my sudden reverence... leading me to the Rosary again after so many years, but I will tell you that it was comforting and I recommend it if you are feeling some sort of unexplained fear or uncomfortable drift. It was a gut reaction for me; I've not been a very religious person for quite a long time, and at some level have trouble thinking of myself as one now. That being said, when I had this negative experience, real or more likely just a bad morsel of food, I said the Rosary as best as I remembered till I fell back to sleep. I woke the next day feeling fine and a bit silly for being overcomed by this momentary "superstitious lapse."

Anyway, I think the Rosary might be of some help to you in putting these fearful feelings to rest. I almost didn't submit this, because I'm repelled buy superstition, and thats where I put the idea of ghosts and spirits. I hope this post doesn't come back to "haunt" me. I haven't actually gotten a real Rosary, but its on the list.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), April 30, 2004.

Jim

Somethings are very real. An explanation of the Holy Water at every entrance to the Church would be appropriate right about now.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 30, 2004.

Very true Rod. However, in re-reading Marie's post, (a wee bit above mine) I now think it sounds like a "bit of Irish verse" that got me to tellin' my Rosary after the nightmare story.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), April 30, 2004.

Seven Kinds of Ghosts

by Bro. John-Paul Ignatius, Legion of St. Michael

© 2001 Order of the Legion of St. Michael

I. Floating in Time and Space

If we were to get into a time machine with this computer and a power source and go back 1000 years, we would likely be accused of witchcraft. To the people 1000 years ago this computer machine would have been considered impossible. Its abilities would be considered the power of the devil. To them, this computer is supernatural. To us it is just another machine.

Unless we are to consider ourselves utterly uneducated and primally brutal, we must admit that what we condsider to be supernatural today may to future generations be as natural as home made pie.

Physics has given us some clues into the nature of alledged ghosts and their origin. We suspect from Physics research that it is possible for beings to be in a plane of existance different from our own which may give us a ghostly image when those two planes open to each other in some way. Through this research we may eventually come to understand how angels, (and ghosts) are able to do what they do. Also through this research we may find some kinds of Ghosts that are not Ghosts at all in the way we normally think of them, but an event of time/space distortions or other quantum phenomena.

II. What the Bible Says about Ghosts

A. Seeking out Ghosts

We will leave the speculative physics for another time. Now let us discuss the experience of ghosts in this plane of existance. We begin this discussion with an examination of some of the Scripture verses that give us clues on this subject.

Scripture does not have much to say about this and certainly God has made it clear that this is an area we are not to seek out

*Lev. 19:31 tells us to not turn to mediums or to seek out spiritists

*Lev. 20:6, 27 equates the seeking out of mediums with prostitution (doing so is an act of infidelity to God that is not just adultery, but involves a prurient interest in the occult things equating it with prostitution -- a medium also is "hired" which is also an image of prostitution).

*Deut. 18:10-11 Gives a whole list of prohibitions involving the occult and spirit world.

Whatever Ghosts are or are not, it is clear that we are not to seek them out in any way.

B. What do We Know About Ghosts?

1. Composition of Ghosts

*What are ghosts composed of? Well, we have a little hint of that in Luke 24:39 where the Resurrected Jesus is mistaken for a ghost. Jesus says "a ghost does not have flesh and bones".

Thus we can know that whatever ghosts are, they are spiritual beings without flesh and bones.

2. Ghostly Vistiations during Sleep

*Is there an example of a ghostly visitation during sleep? Job 4:15 "A spirit glided by my face and the hair on my body stood on end"

This "spirit" was most probably an angel, but it does give us a clue of the human experience of meeting a spiritual entity and that such entities can and do come to us in that vulnerable time of twilight and dreams. This account is very close to the common experience many have of which can be described in technical jargon as a cataleptic somnambulism with a sensed or visual phantasmic perception.

Also in 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 This passage is about a dream (vision) of the Jewish leader Maccabeus. In this dream the ghosts of the high priest Onias and the great prophet Jeremiah appeared to him and encouraged him concerning the battle to come.

Maccabeus told this dream to his men which encourage his men greatly. Maccabeus and his men afterwards defeated blasphemous Nicanor and his men who thought to destroy the Jewish people.

3. Human spirits in Ghostly Form?

*Can a human being's spirit be transported? We know from accounts of Padre Pio that bi-location is possible, but those are yet unverified - - But what about in Scripture. Well, there are a couple of verses that indicate this. One is in Rev. 21:10 (17:3) where John was "carried away in the spirit". But the most direct notion of this is in 2 Corinthians 1:22 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know -- God knows."

From this we know it is possible for man's spirit to be apart from even his living body at God's discretion. In the occult world this is called Astral Projection.

*Can a person's body be transported spiritually? Acts 8:39, after Philip was miraculously running up along the chariot of the Ethiopian, and after Philip baptized him, Philip then disappeared. "When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again..."

This episode appears to be a bodily transport in the spirit, but I suppose it could also be a corporeal bi-location too. Who knows?

4. Other examples of ghostly visitations

*1 Samuel 28 The Witch of Endor. In this story Saul goes to a medium asking her to contact the dead Samuel. She apparently succeeds and Saul talks with Samuel and Samuel prophecies. The Scripture specifically states that "Samuel said". There is no indication at all that this was a demonic imposter.

*Sirach 46:20. Again Samuel prophecies from the grave.

*The Transfiguration Matt 17:2 Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus to Peter, James, and John

*The Rich Man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31 In verse 25 Abraham says that there is a great chasm between him and the Rich Man that cannot be crossed. This is not talking about a chasm between the earth and hell; it is a chasm between Abraham's bosom (which, in principle can be likened to heaven), and that of hell. Those in hell cannot come to the place of the saved, and the saved cannot reach down with compassion to those who are lost. It is in the next request from the Rich Man that we have a possible clue. The Rich Man wants Lazarus to go to his brothers to warn them of hell. Abraham says that there is no point in doing so. v.31 "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead".

This passage implies the possibility of at least Lazarus being able to go to the living (it implies the Rich Man in hell cannot), but Abraham refuses the request not because it is impossible to do so, but because there is no point in doing so.

C. Conclusion *So what do we have?

1) We know that ghosts do not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39)

2) We know that the dead can communicate with the living. (1 Sam 28; Sirach 46:20)

3) We know that at least in some context allowed by God, the dead can be conjured in some fashion. (1 Sam 28)

4) We know that it is possible for the dead to appear on the earth (Matt 72; 1 Sam 28)

5) We know that is may be possible for the dead to not only appear on the earth, but appear to people and talk with them (Luke 16:27-31; 1 Sam 28)

6) We know that it is possible for the living to bi-locate (Rev. 17:3; 21:10; 2 Cor 12:2)

7) We know that it is possible for spirits to communicate in dreams and the person to have a bodily reaction to the visitation (Job 415)

III. Comments from Peter Kreeft

Now, let's take a look at what Peter Kreeft says about this. He wrote at least two books that mention this subject, "Angels (and demons) What Do we Know About Them?" and "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven". His comments stem from his study of Thomas Aquinas, Philosophy, and other Catholic saints and observers on this subject.

Kreeft makes mention that many very reputable people, such as C.S. Lewis, have reported seeing a "ghost" of their wives. There are many instances from reputatable sources of experiences that do not have ANY flavor of the demonic.

Based upon these anecdotal accounts Kreeft and others talk about identifying three kinds of ghosts. I would add a fourth and a fifth category (from Kreeft's material that he talks about but doesn't categorized) and a sixth and seventh type from my own thoughts and observations.

IV. Seven Kinds of Ghosts

A. GHOSTS OF THE FIRST KIND: The first kind Kreeft calls the "sad ones" or "wispy ones". These Ghosts seem to be working out some unfinished business of some sort, or suffering some purgatorial purification.

He says that these Ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it into Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past lives on earth. God, in his compassion, may realize that to allow the person to get through Purgatory that it may be useful for them to learn some lessons on this earth.

B. GHOSTS OF THE SECOND KIND: A Second kind may be some of these purgatorial ghosts who might have been so material minded in their earthly life that they can't detach themselves from these Material places or possessions. God may allow them to remain attached as they work out their need to "let go".

C. GHOSTS OF THE THIRD KIND: A third type might be those who don't yet realize their dead. Again, in God's compassion, I can see why He would allow a spirit to linger for a short while so that they may realize their fate before leaving this world completely. In both the "second kind" and "third kind" God could, of course, force the person to let go of the material place or to come on through the "gate" and not linger. But a compassionate Father can also allow for a "little" tolerance to help the person to adjust.

D. GHOSTS OF A FOURTH KIND: A Fourth type are the malicious and deceptive spirits. These are the one who probably appear at seances and the like and are most likely from hell. And most likely are demons disguised as dead loved ones and not the human persons themselves.

E. GHOSTS OF A FIFTH KIND: A Fifth type are the bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family who appear unbidden at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from heaven. These type may come to a loved one to say goodbye or to comfort after a funeral for example. Or these type may come to a relative or friend in "great" need. There are very trustworthy empirical and psychological evidence for these phenomena.

F. GHOSTS OF A SIXTH KIND: A sixth type might be a form of time/space instant replay. We know from Einstein's work and other scientists that it may indeed be possible for events of the past to be in the present in a sort of time/space warp. This gets into some very complicated notions, but the idea is that some "ghosts" are not ghosts at all but are an instant replay of a past event.

In such cases what one sees is the ghost performing a certain scene repetively. For example, a ghost of this type may go from the top of the stairs to the bottom and then disappear. This may happen over and over again. It never changes. The Ghost never interacts with anyone, and we cannot interact with it. It never changes facial expression nor does it ever acknowledge anything around it. Thus phenomenon is exactly like an instant reply on T.V. As some sort of time/space loop or instant replay, this Ghost is NOT a demon, or soul, or spirit. It is a phemomenon that given the right circumstances can probably be explained by physics. This type is NOT supernatural.

G. GHOSTS OF THE SEVENTH KIND: Some "apparent" ghostly apparitions or effects may be the bi-location of the living...the Astral projections of living people. This can be postulated from scriptural evidence (Rev. 17:3; 21:10; and 2 Cor 12:2), and from verified reports of bi- location of people like Padre Pio.

V. What should our demeanor be toward "any" ghostly event?

In a one liner the answer to that questoin is skepticism, caution, and testing.

Because Satan can so easily fool our senses, we should look upon all ghostly events with great skepticism as to the idea of whether they come from God.

First, we must recognize the GREAT possibility that we are imagining things. The human mind has great imagination capacity and we can psyche ourselves into seeing things that are not there or to misinterpret optical illusions.

Second, we must always presume that we may be tricked by Satan and what we see is a demon in disguise or Satan taking advantage of our overactive imaginations or taking advantage of optical illusions.

Third, we must be aware that it is possible for the event to be ordained by God.

VI. How can we tell the difference between a a Godly Apparition and one not of God?

1) a Godly apparition will NEVER contradict ANY Public Revelation. (so we need to be well versed in Public Revelation)

2) a Godly apparition will NEVER lead you to disobey your elders, superiors, or the Church. (so we need to be aware of Church teaching and the like)

3) Although meeting a Spirit is scary, a Godly apparition will lead you to peace.

4) A Godly spirit will ALWAYS and without hesitation affirm the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Thus we need to test the spirit with the formula of 1 John 4:1-3

VII. Some Common Questions and Answers

1) In reference to the Ghosts of the Second Kind, how can we even begin to think that God would let someone stay on to work out their need to "let go"?

ANSWER To a degree, purgatory may serve this function in some cases. Letting go can even be an obstacle to Heaven completely

"Jesus looked at him [now sad] and said, 'How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.' Those who heard this said, 'Then who can be saved?' And he said, 'What is impossible for human beings is possible for God.'" (Luke 18:24-27)

I don't think allowing adjustment time would be a scripturally unfounded statement.

2) Referring to the Third and Sixth kind of Ghosts, how can we even begin to think that God would allow someone to not realize they're dead, or allow for a "little" tolerance to help the person to adjust, or create a type that might be a form of time/space instant replay????

ANSWER "Who is this that obscures divine plans with words of ignorance? Have the gates of death been shown to you, or have you seen the gates of darkness? Which is the way to the dwelling place of light, and where is the abode of darkness, that you may take them to their boundaries and set them on their homeward paths?" Job 382,17,19

"... For stern as death is love, relentless as the nether world is devotion, its flames are a blazing fire." Cf. Song of Songs 8:6

"... for nothing will be impossible for God." Luke 1:37

I do believe such a conjecture IS possible for God, the question is whether it is likely? A key to that would be whether it would be loving, for God is love (1 John 4:7).

Let us look into Church traditions of the past for precedents.

"'A very probable opinion,' says St. Thomas [Aquinas], 'and one which, moreover, corresponds with the words of the saints in particular revelation is, that Purgatory has a double place for expiation. The first will be destined for the generality of souls, and is situated below, near to Hell; the second will be for particular cases, and it is from thence that so many apparitions occur.'

"The holy Doctor admits, then, like so many others who share his opinions, that sometimes Divine Justice assigns a special place for purification to certain souls, and even permits them to appear either to instruct the living or to procure for the departed the suffrages of which they stand in need; sometimes also for other motives worthy of wisdom and mercy of God.

"Such is the general view concerning the location of Purgatory. Since we are not writing a controversial treatise, we add neither proofs nor refutations; these can be seen in authors such as Suarez and Bellarmin." (Fr. F.X. Shouppe, S.J., "Purgatory Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints," 1893)

3) But Scripture says that if you are not alive on earth, then you are in the presense of God.

ANSWER Most definitely; but what does that mean?

Case in Point We know that Souls in Hell are in the "presence" of God because God is everywhere. Those in Hell, however, do not "perceive" God's presence because they have chosen to blind themselves to the light of God. The nature of Hell is to exist without perception of God's presence (thus without Love and all good things) ... to be "free" from God, yet those in Hell are still in the presence of an omnipresent God.

Similarly, souls in Purgatory only have a partial awareness of God's presence. The veil of mortality has not yet passed away, yet they are still in God's presence.

"The first point about eternal life is that man is united with God. For God himself is the reward and end of all our labors I am your protector and your supreme reward. This union consists in seeing perfectly At present we are looking at a confused reflection in a mirror, but then we shall see face to face." (St. Thomas Aquinas, "Credo in Deum")

The point is that even when we are in the presence of God it does not mean that our perception of Him is clear. We also know that it is possible to be in the presence of God while on the earth. The angels can be standing right next to us yet they are also in the constant presence of God - the beatific vision. With God all is possible according to His will.

4) The Bible doesn't deliniate how, why or if God places spirits on the earth other then visits by Gabriel, the Archangel Michael, or Elija and Moses.

ANSWER Let me use another example from tradition that responds to "if God places spirits on the earth anywhere." I qualify this example to say that it does not necessarily prove anything regarding "hauntings," but is one of many documented examples of ghostly apparitions.

"We read the following in the Life of Father Nicholas Zucchi, written by Fr. Daniel Bartoli, of the Company of Jesus ...

"... a fortnight afterwards, this young man died, carried away by a rapid death, that left him little time to put the affairs of his conscience in order, so that there was everything to fear for his salvation.

"One evening, whilst the three novices were engaged together in holy conversation, the youngest was called away to the parlour. There she found a man wrapped in a heavy cloak, and with measured steps pacing the room.

'Sir,' she said, 'who are you? and why did you send for me?' The stranger, without answering, drew near and threw aside the mysterious mantle which covered him. The Religious than recognized the unfortunate deceased, and saw with horror that he was entirely surrounded by chains of fire that clasped his neck, wrists, knees, and ankles. 'Pray for me!' he cried, and disappeared." (Fr. F.X. Shouppe, S.J., "Purgatory Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints," 1893)

On an anecdotal side note, Padre Pio's first visit from a deceased human's soul was that of a monk who had died 300 years before in the cell Padre used at the time. The monk had been guilty of some infraction of his monkly duties, and so God sentenced him to remain in his cell until a monk would offer up some prayers and sacrifices on his behalf. I forget what laxity the monk had been guilty of, but I found it interesting that his "sentence" very much fit the "crime."

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), May 03, 2004.