For Faith -- THE EARLIEST QUOTES ON CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

I hope you read these because I spent a lot of time searching for only the earliest of quotes. I said in the other thread that the seeds of Catholic doctrine can be found in scripture. By the end of the 2nd century, the seeds are pollenating.

I must say again these quotes were not compiled by me, but by Joseph Gallegos. (Give honor to whom honor is due.)

Private Interpretation Apart from the Church

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199),in ANF,I:508

Prayer for the Dead and Purgatory

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla(A.D. 160),in ANF,VIII:490

"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me .. faithful writings...These words,I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed.In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius(A.D. 190),in PAT,I:172

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias,2:3-4(A.D. 202),in ANF,III:701-702

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more-- not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(post A.D. 202),in ANF,II:504

The Eucharist

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again" Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to Smyrnaeans,7,1(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour,having been made flesh and blood for our salvation,so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word,and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished,is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:18,4(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,I:486

"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood,from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body,from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:2,2(c.A.D. 200),in NE,119

"But what consistency is there in those who hold that the bread over which thanks have been given is the Body of their Lord,and the cup His Blood,if they do not acknowledge that He is the Son of the Creator of the world..." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV:18,2(c.A.D. 200),in JUR,I:95

"For the blood of the grape--that is, the Word--desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord's immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul." Clement of Alexandria,The Instructor,2(ante A.D. 202),in ANF,II:242

"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood,from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body,from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,V:2,2(c.A.D. 200),in NE,119

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH AND WORKS

"Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. 'For God,' saith [the Scripture], 'resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.' Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words." Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,30(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

"For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?" Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,31(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

" All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Clement of Rome,Epistle to the Corinthians,32(A.D. 98),in ANF,I:13

"Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be stedfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great." Ignatius of Antioch,To Polycarp,1(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:99

" Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages [promised]. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long- suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God [is] toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times." Ignatius of Antioch,To Polycarp,6(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:100

"For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works." Epistle of Barnabas,2(A.D. 132),in ANF,I:149

"But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; 'not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,' or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: 'Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.' " Polycarp,To the Phillipians,2(A.D. 135),in ANF,I:33

"They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them." Shepherd of Hermas,2 Comm 7(A.D. 155),in ANF,II:25

"But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins." Shepherd of Hermas,3 Sim 10:2(A.D. 155),in ANF,II:55

"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." Justin Martyr,First Apology,6(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:177

Confession

NOTE: In the early Church confession was made publicly at mass, and then later that was seen as too harsh, so private confession was made available.

"In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day,assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins,so that your sacrifice may be pure" Didache,4:14,14:1(A.D.70),in ACW,6:18,23

"Confess your sins. Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience." Epistle of Barnabas,19:12(A.D. 74),in ACW,6:63

"Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop." Ignatius,Epistle to the Smyraeans,9(.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:90

"Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God--a thing which frequently occurs--have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician." Irenaeus.Against Heresies,1:13(A.D.180),in ANF,I:335

"Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, 'neither without nor within;' possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge." Irenaeus.Against Heresies,1:13(A.D.180),in ANF,I:336

"The Pontifex Maximus--that is, the bishop of bishops--issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.' " Tertullian,Modesty,1(A.D. 220),in ANF,IV:74

"[Prayer for the Consecration of a Bishop] O God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who dwellest on high yet hast respect unto the lowly, who knowest all things before they come to pass; Who didst give ordinances unto Thy church by the Word of thy grace; Who didst foreordain from the beginning the race of the righteous from Abraham,instituting princes and priests and leaving not Thy sanctuary without ministers; Who from the foundation of the world hast been pleased to be glorified in them whom Thou hast chosen; And now pour forth that Power which is from Thee, of the princely Spirit which Thou didst deliver to Thy Beloved Child Jesus Christ, which He bestowed on Thy holy Apostles who established the Church which hallows Thee in every place to the endless glory and praise of Thy Name. Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest,that he may minister blamelessly by night and day,that he may unceasingly behold and propriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus,Apostolic Tradition,3(A.D. 215),in AT,4-5

Veneration of Mary

"For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52

"[T]hey blessed her, saying: O God of our fathers, bless this child, and give her an everlasting name to be named in all generations. And all the people said: So be it, so be it, amen. And he brought her to the chief priests; and they blessed her, saying: O God most high, look upon this child, and bless her with the utmost blessing, which shall be for ever." Protoevangelium of John,6:2(A.D. 150),in ANF,VIII:362

"He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him." Justin Martyr,Dialogue with Trypho,100(A.D. 155),in ANF,I:249

"[H]e was born of Mary the fair ewe." Melito de Sardo,Easter Homily(c.A.D. 177),in PAT,I:244

"In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

"For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon Himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which He wove for Himself, like a bridegroom, in the sufferings of the cross, in order that by uniting His own power with our moral body, and by mixing the incorruptible with the corruptible, and the strong with the weak, He might save perishing man." Hippolytus,Treatise on Christ and antiChrist,4(A.D. 200),in ANF,V:205

Once Saved Not Always Saved

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.' " Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,10(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:53-54

"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. " Didache,16(A.D. 140),in ANF,VII:382

"And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life." Hermas,The Shephard,3:8:7(A.D. 155),in ANF,II:41-42

"[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition." Justin Martyr,fragment in Irenaeus' Against Heresies,5:26:1(A.D. 156),in ANF,I:555

The Visibility and Teaching Authority of the Church

"Now all these [heretics] are of much later date than the bishops to whom the apostles committed the Churches; which fact I have in the third book taken all pains to demonstrate. It follows, then, as a matter of course, that these heretics aforementioned, since they are blind to the truth, and deviate from the [right] way, will walk in various roads; and therefore the footsteps of their doctrine are scattered here and there without agreement or connection. But the path of those belonging to the Church circumscribes the whole world, as possessing the sure tradition from the apostles, and gives unto us to see that the faith of all is one and the same ... And undoubtedly the preaching of the Church is true and stedfast, in which one and the same way of salvation is shown throughout the whole world. For to her is entrusted the light of God; and therefore the "wisdom" of God, by means of which she saves all men, 'is declared in [its] going forth; it uttereth [its voice] faithfully in the streets, is preached on the tops of the walls, and speaks continually in the gates of the city.' For the Church preaches the truth everywhere, and she is the seven-branched candlestick which bears the light of Christ.

Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth ... not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behoves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,5:20 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547-8

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003

Answers

I moved this text over here simply because I put it on the wrong thread and didn't know where else to put it.

The Third Council of Carthage was not a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. The English text below is from Bruce Metzger.

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

********

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.


Faith, I looked in vain for early teachings on the Trinity but could not find any. There are quotes on baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but no real exposition on "Trinity." As you probably already know, the Trinitarian doctrine did not jell until the late 3rd and 4th centuries much as a result of the war waged by the Arian heresy concerning the nature of Christ. Augustine wrote literally volumes on the Trinity, and we owe him much in that regard.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.


TRINITY

"That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence-in position, not in nature." Tertullian -- The Apology circa 197 ad

In Christ,
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


Faith,

Why no comments on the Eucharist? Does your church practice the belief in transubstantiation and the real presence of Christ in communion as did the early church?

Why no comments on this VERY EARLY QUOTE concerning "private interpretation of scripture" which is what Protestantism is all about? "True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199),in ANF,I:508

Why no comments on the prayers for the dead? Did you know the catacombs of the early martyrs are filled with inscripted requests to them (the deceased) from the survivors, asking them (the martyrs) for their prayers?

Why no comments on the veneration of Mary?

Why no comments on confession?

Why is there no comment on the fact that the deuteros were canonized at the SAME TIME as the N.T. in 397? Would you like to quotes from the EARLY EARLY Fathers quoting from the deuteros? I can provide plenty.

The evidence is overwhelming, Faith, and it is really not that you can't believe, it is simply that you WON'T believe. The fact is, the early church is the Catholic Church in its embryonic stages.

I pointed out the Trinitarian doctrine as an example of a doctrine that did not jell until the 4th century, just like the other Catholic doctrines, although there were seeds of that doctrine well before then.

Happy New Year to you too!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.


I still see nothing about Peter as head of the catholic (universal) church or that Romanism was a part of the early church.

That Peter was appointed by Christ to head the Church is established in the gospels. In Matthew 16:18-19 Jesus states: " And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The promise made by Christ in Matthew 16:16-19, received its fulfilment after the Resurrection in the scene described in John 21. Here the Lord, when about to leave the earth, places the whole flock -- the sheep and the lambs alike -- in the charge of the Apostle. The term employed in 21:16, "Be the shepherd [] of my sheep" indicates that his task is not merely to feed but to rule. It is the same word as is used in Psalm 2:9 (Sept.): "Thou shalt rule [] them with a rod of iron".

The position of St. Peter after the Ascension, is shown in the Acts of the Apostles. He is from the first the chief of the Apostles.

That Peter visited Rome and died there is of really no dispute.

As you know, St. Cyprian expressly terms the Roman See the Chair of St. Peter in the 3rd century. From there, the Catholic Encyclopedia pre-dates Peter on the Roman See as follows: St. Cyprian expressly terms the Roman See the Chair of St. Peter, saying that Cornelius has succeeded to "the place of Fabian which is the place of Peter" (Ep 55:8; cf. 59:14). Firmilian of Caesarea notices that Stephen claimed to decide the controversy regarding rebaptism on the ground that he held the succession from Peter (Cyprian, Ep. 75:17). He does not deny the claim: yet certainly, had he been able, he would have done so. Thus in 250 the Roman episcopate of Peter was admitted by those best able to know the truth, not merely at Rome but in the churches of Africa and of Asia Minor. In the first quarter of the century (about 220) Tertullian (De Pud. 21) mentions Callistus's claim that Peter's power to forgive sins had descended in a special manner to him. Had the Roman Church been merely founded by Peter and not reckoned him as its first bishop, there could have been no ground for such a contention. Tertullian, like Firmilian, had every motive to deny the claim. Moreover, he had himself resided at Rome, and would have been well aware if the idea of a Roman episcopate of Peter had been, as is contended by its opponents, a novelty dating from the first years of the third century, supplanting the older tradition according to which Peter and Paul were co-founders, and Linus first bishop. About the same period, Hippolytus (for Lightfoot is surely right in holding him to be the author of the first part of the "Liberian Catalogue" -- "Clement of Rome", 1:259) reckons Peter in the list of Roman bishops.

We have moreover a poem, "Adversus Marcionem", written apparently at the same period, in which Peter is said to have passed on to Linus "the chair on which he himself had sat" (P.L., II 1077). These witnesses bring us to the beginning of the third century. In the second century we cannot look for much evidence. With the exception of Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement of Alexandria, all the writers whose works we possess are apologists against either Jews or pagans. In works of such a character there was no reason to refer to such a matter as Peter's Roman episcopate. Irenaeus, however, supplies us with a cogent argument. In two passages (Adv. haer. 1:27:1, and 3:4:3) he speaks of Hyginus as ninth Bishop of Rome, thus employing an enumeration which involves the inclusion of Peter as first bishop (Lightfoot was undoubtedly wrong in supposing that there was any doubt as to the correctness of the reading in the first of these passages. See "Zeitschrift fer kath. Theol.", 1902. In 3:4:3, the Latin version, it is true, gives "octavus"; but the Greek text as cited by Eusebius reads . Irenaeus we know visited Rome in 177. At this date, scarcely more than a century after the death of St. Peter, he may well have come in contact with men whose fathers had themselves spoken to the Apostle. The tradition thus supported must be regarded as beyond all legitimate doubt. Lightfoot's suggestion (Clement 1:64), maintained as certain by Mr. Puller, that it had its origin in the Clementine romance, has proved singularly unfortunate. For it is now recognized that this work belongs not to the second, but to the fourth century. Nor is there the slightest ground for the assertion that the language of Irenaeus, 3:3:3, implies that Peter and Paul enjoyed a divided episcopate at Rome -- an arrangement utterly unknown to the Church at any period. He does, it is true, speak of the two Apostles as together handing on the episcopate to Linus. But this expression is explained by the purpose of his argument, which is to vindicate against the Gnostics the validity of the doctrine taught in the Roman Church. Hence he is naturally led to lay stress on the fact that that Church inherited the teaching of both the great Apostles. Epiphanius ("Haer." 27:6) would indeed seem to suggest the divided episcopate; but he has apparently merely misunderstood the words of Irenaeus.

The first written mention of the term "Catholic Church" was in 107 A.D. by St. Ignatius in Antioch in a letter to the Smyrnaeans. He writes: "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the [katholike - catholic] Church." St. Peter died around 64 A.D., so it was about 40-50 years after his death that the church began to call itself catholic (universal).

Centralized power was a great concern in the early Catholic Church, with a great many religious debates being held over whether or not the diocese in Rome was just another bishop, first among equals, or supreme overlord. Obviously the final view prevailed, that's why only the bishop of Rome (the Pope) is known as the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Indeed, the earliest Edicts against heresy were used to destroy dissenters who opposed the supremacy of the Pope.

Peter’s immediate successor was St. Linus (c. 64-c. 76) ; the third successor was St. Clement (c. 76-c. 91). The latter deserves special attention because of a very significant episode which occurred during his pontificate [as recounted by The Most Reverend Duane G. Hunt D.D.] a dissension had arisen among the Christians of Corinth, becoming so serious as to call for instruction and correction from higher Church authorities - the highest, in fact. Who was the highest? Was it St. John, the beloved Apostle? He was still living in Ephesus, a Greek city; and Corinth, too, was a Greek city. The ties between the two were closer than those between Corinth and Rome. Moreover, St. John was the last of the original Apostles. Would he not be expected to send a message to the Christians of Corinth? The fact is that he did not do so, but the third successor of St. Peter did. St. Clement, the Bishop of Rome, wrote to Corinth (in 96 AD), gave the necessary instruction, whereupon the dissension came to an end. His letter was so highly regarded that it was read publicly in Corinth for nearly a century, and was included in early manuscripts of the Scriptures.

This letter contains the following very significant words:

"If any should disobey the things spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no light transgression and danger." One Protestant scholar, Lightfoot, has described this as "the first step towards Papal aggression. (Clement 1:70). "

From the 1st century on, the evidence for the primacy of the Bishop of Rome is multiplied. In the second century, for instance, a disagreement arose about the correct date for Easter. Similarly, there was a dispute about a doctrine of faith. Both questions were referred to the Bishop of Rome, whose decisions were immediately accepted. To the same end was the testimony of early Christian writers, such as St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, and St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Let it be noted, furthermore, that there was no suggestion that anyone other than the Bishop of Rome was the visible head of the Church.

So, at the very commencement of Church history, even before the last survivor of the Apostles had passed away, we find a Bishop of Rome, himself a disciple of St. Peter, intervening in the affairs of another Church and claiming to settle the matter by a decision spoken under the influence of the Holy Spirit. What we have is the universal Church recognizing in the Bishop of Rome the office of supreme head.

In about 107 AD St. Ignatius of Antioch, in the opening of his letter to the Roman Church, refers to its presiding over all other Churches. He addresses it as "presiding over the brotherhood of love [] .

We have already talked about St. Irenaeus and others.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.



"When Jesus said to Peter that he was right about who Christ is-- the Son of the Living God--He (Jesus) then said that he would build His church on that! "

No, Christ said he would build the Church on the Rock (which is Peter). Here is the passage:

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Here is a commentary on it if you need it: You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 ("Peter"). It is translated as Petros ("Peter") in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock." Church: this word (Greek ekklesia) occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice). There are several possibilities for an Aramaic original. Jesus' church means the community that he will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld (Greek Hades, the abode of the dead) is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew16.htm

In Christ
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


And so I say to you, you are Petros (small stone), and upon this rock (petras=large stone) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Jesus didn’t speak Greek. In Aramaic He would of used the same word for rock in the statement. In other words: "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church.". The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock."

In Christ
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


close italics



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


Bill, your posts were fabulous!!

Faith says that the Eucharist was symbolic in the early church:

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by TRANSMUTATION are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr,First Apology,66(A.D. 110-165),in ANF,I:185

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they CONFESS NOT THE EUCHARIST TO BE THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again" Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to Smyrnaeans,7,1(c.A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

Obviously, Faith is not even bothering to read the quotes I provided. There is no possible way that these two versus are symbolic. They are as clear and as bold as is linguistically possible!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.


So you don't trust that His disciple understood Jesus' meaning? Matthew was not written in Hebrew.

But Jesus had to speak Aramaic to Peter because Peter did not understand Greek at that time (all the Peterine letters are in Aramaic).

The scriptural word for "rock" comes from the Aramaic word "Kephas". In New Testament times, Peter was often called Kephas, the Aramaic word meaning "Rock." Peter’s name in Aramaic. Kephas in Aramaic means rock, the same as the one the Church was built upon, no difference. The problem with the Greek text is the gender of the word. In translating the Aramaic to the Greek, Petras COULD NOT BE applied to a male since the ending of the word is feminine. This problem is compounded when you realize we are talking about Koine Greek which does not make a universal distinction between Petros and Petras. Thus, the writer chose to use the masculine form of the word, or "Petros," which can mean either a small pebble or ROCK. The original Aramaic term, "Kephas," means rock. The writer clearly intended the meaning to be "rock". The question then is, was Jesus referring to Peter as the rock? Or something else? From the Catholic perspective Jesus was referring to Peter as the rock (apparently the large rock formation outside the city of Caeserea Phillipi) upon which he would build His Church. In essence, Jesus was designating Peter as the head of the Church, and in effect, the first Pope.

In Christ
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.



Hi Bill, I had always thought that the N.T. was written entirely in Greek. So I googled up this article found at Catholic Answers, and by golly you were right! Even some of Christ's Aramaic useage is preserved for us in our "English" Bibles. Thanks!

http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.


Not to mention the obvious flow of the passage, which Faith's interpretation would destroy. Here's the sense of the passage as Faith would have us understand it ...

"And Jesus said to him, "BLESSED are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Because of this powerful blessing, I say to you that you are an insignificant pebble, and I am going to build my Church on someone else; BUT, even though you will have no special role in my Church, I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven anyway; oh, and just for good measure, whatsoever YOU bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Doesn't make much sense, does it? Properly understood, the passage makes perfect sense, each verse building on the verse preceding ...

"And Jesus said to him, "BLESSED are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Because of this powerful blessing, I say to YOU that YOU are ROCK, and upon THIS ROCK I will build My church; and, in order that you might be able to fulfill this new ministry I am assigning to you, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

WOW!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 31, 2003.


Faith was never prepared to concede to logic whether from Gail, or Paul much less from myself. You make all the sense in the world. but Faith has a fatal grasp on her own biblical interpretation of everything. There are many ''Bible Christians'' of that type. When the Catholic Church pronounces the truth in scripture or elsewhere, it is blackout time. NO concessions to a Catholic interpretation!

So, it's not that ''Faith'' has problems putting together the right context and logic of a passage in the Bible. Over and above all, she must NEVER allow a Catholic to teach her anything. She has no difficulty with logic. Her problem is deeply-ingrained prejudice. She would give up her life, but not her bias against the Catholic Church.

We don't deserve to be imposed on by this lady at all. She can't learn a thing. The right thing to do with Faith is bar her permanently from this forum, IMHO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 31, 2003.


I second that motion!

Wait a minute. I made that motion a couple of months ago, after Faith had been around for a week or so. But Faith is still here, after having posted about 400 messages.

Glad you seconded the motion, Gene. Of course, I think that "little paul" seconded it a month or two ago also -- and maybe others. That could mean that your new complaints will also be ignored. This forum has a serious problem.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


Hi John! Hi Eugene!

When will I ever LEARN! Oh well, I learn something new everytime I encounter the Bible-only Christian. I learn how to defend my faith in a way that is logical and reasonable, and hopefully kind. I learn new things from fellow-Catholics, but most of all I learn again how very very happy I am to be Catholic, and how thrilled I am to be out of fundamentalism!

Love to you both,

Gail

P.S. Wow, I didn't realize Faith had been here for months! Where have I been!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2003.



Yes, Gail. You were away for a while, weren't you? Maybe you missed her grand entrance. Then after you came back, maybe she was away for a little while.

Here is Faith more than two months ago -- on October 18, ganging up on Catholicism with two guys that got banned -- Kevin Walker and David Ortiz: Click.

Here she is on October 20, when someone directed an entire thread to her.

A very troubled lady, I'm afraid.

JFG

-- (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), December 31, 2003.


Wow, I wasted 3 whole days (or more) on this gal, as I see everything I posted had already been shown to her over and over again several months ago. Basically, she just comes in with her anti-Catholic rhetoric dressed up in sanctimonious dribble. Very cunning indeed!

You know what, John, since I've been on this forum I do not remember one honest Protestant who came here just to chat or to honestly find out what we believe and why. Every single one of them has been a foaming-at-the-mouth maniacal half-wit. What's kind of a boon for me, though, is that when they get their butts kicked, (which they ALWAYS DO) they just vanish, sorta like the devil, to wait for a more "opportune time."

Happy New Year John, and may God continue to Bless you next year!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2004.


Thanks, Gail. I wish you a very happy New Year too. May God bless you and yours very richly.

You are one of my favorite people at the forum! You are perceptive, and an enthusiastic and hard worker. For a bunch of reasons, don't think that you have "wasted 3 whole days" on Faith/Susan:
1. Your posts have educated many faithful Catholics to know even more than they did before (about the Fathers, etc.).
2. You have planted "seeds" of truth in Faith's mind. It is up to the Holy Spirit to nurture them.
3. You have left lessons for lurkers and future readers to learn from.
4. You have inspired other Catholics to join you in being bold to proclaim the faith.

Keep up the great work, please!
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.


PS: I almost 100% agree with what you said about our non-Catholic visitors. In my four years here, honest and decent ones have been almost as scarce as hen's teeth. The one that stands out in my mind as a major exception is "Kathy." I'm sad that she disappeared. (You didn't know her.) But I am more sad about the fact that, despite non-Catholics' terrible track record here, each new one that comes is given incredible wide leeway and far too long a time to prove him/herself to be here for bad reasons. Many Catholics here, including the moderator, don't realize that almost every non-Catholic that is going to be so bold as to come to a Catholic forum to talk is a missionary or anti-Catholic of some kind or other. The kind of non-Catholics who would be honest, respectful, open to learning, etc., are the very kind who almost never come here! It's so sad.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.


Gail, I enjoyed the discussion. Thanks. It got me thinking.

Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.


Hey John, thanks for the encouragement. I really needed it.

You know I think I may remember that Kathy you were talking about. Remember Dennis Molson? That guy was a doozy. After Fred's death, Dennis never posted again. I remember he even actually said something kind to Carolyn Bishop, which AMAZED me. Do you ever hear from Carolyn? I wonder how she is doing.

God Bless you, and you're very special to me too.

Gail

P.S. Hey Bill, I have enjoyed your posts as well. It was fun taking Faith on. It was a great experience at apologetics, and "team work" thing is pretty cool.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2004.


I think you all are giving up too soon.

Gecik says something true: "You have planted "seeds" of truth in Faith's mind. It is up to the Holy Spirit to nurture them."

But you have to water seeds. If each an every one of you, before this day were out, were to say a Rosary or a Chaplets of Mercy for Faith, or Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts... then the attempt would then be complete. Maybe.

One man reaps what another man sows, and it might not happen for her this year, or next, and you may never see it happen because we aren't always to be honored with witnessing results, but it ain't over yet.

If one doesn't pray for Faith the poster, then one is failing. I'm sure everyone knows this, and everyone is doing this, but just in case.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 01, 2004.


Prayer is always firing the winning shot. I'm sure she is praying for us too, "to get out of that Romanish cult." LOL!

May the Lord direct your path, Faith, and flood you with Wisdom from on high! Amen,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2004.


I also benefited from the discussion with Faith. Nothing wasted here.

I think we do have some considerate Protestant posters. Zarove comes here to discuss, learn, and raises interesting questions... and while some may disagree, "non- Catholic Christian Dave" also generally makes positive contributions. Even when he's not in agreement; to me he seems thoughtful and polite.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 01, 2004.


Yes, Dave is a heck of a nice guy, and he's not an anti-Catholic fundamentalist bigot like most of the characters that spring in here.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2004.


Gail,
I think that I'd better avoid saying much about "Dave." (You're right to say that he's not a fundamentalist, though.)

What you said about "Dennis Molson" (a pen-name) shows that you have a good memory. He did lose heart and left shortly after Fred died. It actually seemed to affect him spiritually, even though he was blatantly atheistic and anti-Catholic.

Carolyn Bishop has stopped by two or three times since then, but not recently (to my knowledge). That was quite a tragic and shocking event, wasn't it? Yes, you probably did know Kathy then, as she and Carolyn seemed like good friends.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.


I guess we won't be able to see your posts. People on the "Ask Jesus" forum were so unable to offer rational responses to questions posed by Catholics that the moderator finally changed that forum to access by password only, simply locking out those who posed questions for which Protestant tradition has no answers to offer.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2004.

Hi Faith,

You said, "I will, however.., post what repentance and receiving Christ REALLY MEANS ACCORDING TO GOD--ON THE ASK JESUS FORUM. I will also address all of Gails quotes and explain why I don't see the Roman Catholic Church taking form until the fourth century."

ANSWER: That is really irksome, Faith. We know what repentence and receiving Christ REALLY mean, according to scripture AND the Church Fathers. Your condensing tone is just a little bit too much for me. Your "Bible tells you this," and your "Bible tells you that," and you're hear to enlighten us all!!

As to the Early Church Fathers, you will do to them what Protestants do to any scripture that doesn't meet with their pre-conceived agenda; twist it, turn it, take a hammer and smash it, and then say "Ahh, yes that's what it means."

Just for the record, I think the above post directed at you by someone was too harsh and should be deleted.

Faith, why are you here? That's the only question I am interested in your answer to at this moment.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 02, 2004.


All I do know is that I love God's Word and can't seem to leave it alone.

I think that is very cool!

In Christ,
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.


We could better identify with Faith if she said ''I love God,''-- a true virtue. Not ''I love God's Word.''

The main objection being, ''God's Word'' bowdlerized to fit a personal belief is no longer God's Word. It's a corruption of the word. To love a corrupt interpretation and have a fascination with it is idolatry. In Faith's case, ''bibliolatry''.

But love for God isn't an idolatry in any way. A Christian can and should love God over every other good, including the Bible; and our love is always virtuous. Loving the scriptures is understandable because they can lead us to God, our great love. Otherwise, they are only a vain pastime. They were first written for the love of God; and must be read for love of Him, not for fascination, or even wisdom.

I suspect this is the main fault of non-Catholic Bible-readers. They wish to acquire wisdom, and ''spiritual depth'' which is sadly missing from their daily lives. The Bible becomes a stop-gap, a substitute for God. Their study has acquisition for its purpose, rather than love.

There is ample proof for this aspect of Bible study. We know for certain there have been millions of illiterates who have loved God, lived holy lives and served Jesus Christ faithfully. Some never owned a Bible! With no access to ''wisdom'' such as Bible Christians hurry after. They heard to Word of God in Church. From a good pastor, a holy man of God, reared in the faith of the apostles. They went home secure in the love of God, without ever learning to read. They received the grace of Jesus Christ by way of the sacraments, from birth all the way to the last rites. Never far from the great love of their lives; God. Not a book, necessarily.

This is grace; without which no man is ever saved. Many Bible-scholars live without repentence of sins or the cardinal virtues of faith, hope and charity. They cannot grow in those virtues with only a misinterpreted Bible to teach them. It's a losing battle for the majority of them. They haven't really worshipped God; not all of them. They worshipped a bible. Faith is only a present example of idolatry. She's hung up on Bible-study. But she discarded the Church of Jesus Christ and left His sacraments. The very proofs of His divine love for her!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.


Faith:
Drop the self-styled wisdom you dress yourself in; and enter into real communion with Jesus Christ. There is none in your perusing of the scriptures. You can't interpret worth a nickel. But if you truly love Christ, come back to his holy Church, where He will reunite you with his saints. The ones to whom He sent the Bible, so they wrote, canonized and consecrated it in the Holy Spirit.

If you love the Word of God, don't cast away God's divine Will which established the school of the apostles, who taught us the truth. The Church is still ONE, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC and HOLY. The Catholic Church alone; keeper of God's Holy Word. In her is our Communion of Saints on earth, in heaven and in purgatory. --Christ's Bride, still true after almost 2,000 years!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ