Can the Church get along without the Pope being effective?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

The current pontiff has been a very effective man his whole life. His health is failing. There may/will come a time between the end of his effectiveness and the end of his life. I have forgotten, so tell me what happens then?

When the leader of a nation or of a war is not effective anymore (if Reagan had stayed as president for life and still got altimers (spelling is wrong) he would have gone through a time of being alive but not effective, but still able to issue commands both good and distructive. Fortunately this president for life stuff does not happen here (Yet??). Many systems have ways to retire or eliminate the ineffective person in charge. The Catholic Church lacks these methods at the top. I hope you can see the implications.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004

Answers

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Not really. The Roman Catholic Heirarchy has cardinals who can step in in the event of paupal inefficiency, and I beleiv soem Popes have even stepped downor retired citing gailign health or advancign age.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 02, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

This Pope has enough sense to see when his ability to do the job is gone. If he needed to step down he would. (Not yet Lord, we still need him). As for 'in theory' cases, if his mental capacity were suddenly gone before he could even think of stepping down, I don't really know. I think I will let the Holy Spirit handle it.

There is an old Catholic saying from before the instant media age, "The Pope ins't sick until the Pope is dead."

As for past Popes retireing, I only know the reason for one of them retireing and it wasn't health, it was valiant self sacrifice. Someone with more history can step in and tell us the reasons for the others.

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

The act of resigning from office, retiring or renouncing a benefice or clerical dignity is called "abdication." The following Popes have abdicated:

Marcellinus in 304 A.D.; Liberius in 366 A.D.; Benedict IX in 1045 A.D.; Gregory VI in 1046 A.D.; St. Celestine V in 1294 A.D.; and Gregory XII in 1415 A.D.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Somewhere at the heart of all this is suffering. The pope has asked a lot of people to bare with their suffering, of one sort or another, and not give up. I think he really thinks he needs to be a role model in this area.

From my understanding, now that he is resting more, he is becoming physically stronger. Makes sense.

Those 'in the know' say that even if he doesn't retire soon, he is definately preparing the Church for his death.

In Christ,
Bill



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

As long as God wills, no Pope is ever ineffective while he lives and breathes. His soul is in active succession from Peter in sickness and in health. It's a mystical property, not just an intellectual or temporal one.

Only one man at any one time is in possession of this characteristic, which is passed on to the next successor when the Pope dies. Even in extemis a dying Pope draws upon Christ's grace, acting as His holy Vicar, to shed on the Church as long as he has a living soul; and we know the soul is immortal. Besides this divine grace, we have as the temporal blessing from God to His Church the IDENTIFICATION our Holy Father gives us, as the people of God. He is the ''flag'' of Christ's Church; where his person is, the Church lives as a holy people. Without Peter the Church could not easily distinguish herself from all false churches. His person identifies Christ's flock before the world. Therefore, no Pope is incapable of leading us as long as he lives. And this doesn't even affect the Magisterium or College of Cardinals. They are vital to Christ's Church, but not in the way His Vicar on earth is.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.



Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Sorry, but a Pope with Alzheimer's or in an irreversible coma is not capable of leading anyone. In such a case, his duties would necessarily be taken over by capable persons. While his position is indeed unique and mystical, the administration of his duties requires intellectual function as well.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

If you consider him as the administrator of the Vatican, this would be so. No one can work in an incapacitated condition. But the administration would continue where possible; he indeed delegates much of that right now. What I've posed is the succession of Peter's office, it's relevance. It would never be so conditional as to require removing a pontiff for administrative changes. That would be uncalled for.

As long as the patient were alive, he has to remain the Pope, active or not. I accept the possibility of his voluntary retirement. But it seems very doubtful that another could take his place by election as long as he lived.

Alzheimers patients are living souls, you have to agree. God doesn't leave a soul when it is comatose. A soul in the state of grace. That would be very hard to prove, IMO.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

It is not simply the Pope's administrative duties which require cognition. In fact, those duties would be the easiest to delegate to others. His spiritual duties as chief shepherd of the universal Church also require comprehension. What will happen to the flock if the shepherd, no matter how holy a person, is asleep - permanently? Obviously the shepherd would have to be replaced by one who actually can shepherd. The Pope is not just a figurehead (as I'm sure you recognize). His active and conscious spiritual leadership is essential to the life of the Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

It's assumed here we speak hypothetically. Is it a part of canon law you're citing, or simply the insight of one man? (Mine is.)

I truly believe it's always the Holy Spirit from whom grace and protection come to the Church. If so, His guidance would come down to us by the Pope's PERSON on earth, possibly even independent of his physical state. He is a vessel before he's a leader of the flock. Grace isn't his to impart, but God's through him and the Church. Death alone would tend to change that, I think.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

There are no canon law provisions that go into effect automatically if a pope is incapacitated. A pope needs to resign. It is thought that the current pope would resign if he could not longer do the job.

A pope can set down a a conditional abdication to be activated based upon certain circumstances. In 1804, Pope Pius VII signed a condtional abdication before setting out for France to crown Napoleon, such to take effect if he were imprisoned. There was no need for its implementation. We do not know if the current pope has created such a document.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 02, 2004.



Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

"He is a vessel before he's a leader of the flock. Grace isn't his to impart, but God's through him and the Church"

A: I agree. God provides the grace. The Pope receives it. God imparts it to the Church through him. Specifically through his teaching and pastoral guidance. It is difficult to imagine that God could impart the same grace, the same spiritual direction, through a man who could do nothing but lie there unconscious. Let's hope and pray we never have occasion to find out. But if we do, the Holy Spirit can handle the situation. He has done a fine job of guiding the Church for the past 2,000 years and isn't likely to withdraw His guidance no matter what may come.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

SO: ''God imparts it to the Church through him. Specifically through his teaching and pastoral guidance.'' --? ? ? This doesn't just follow, though. The works of a Pope well before his illness are sufficiently productive in the Church. He can enter a more passive phase and even so bring God's grace and providence to the flock. Activity to the end might not even be a positive.

''It is difficult to imagine that God could impart the same grace, the same spiritual direction, through a man who could do nothing.'' Is it? I can well see that eventuality; and particularly since it is really the stability of Peter which gives Christ's Church permanence and life. Not here and there a decision or an encyclical.

These are ultimately God's actions. In time the Pope is succeeded, always in the most natural way. The Catholic Church endures despite successions. Spiritual direction is the work of the Holy Spirit, not one man. The Pope is Rock. We are his flock; and we rest when he tells us to. --There is no hurry.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 02, 2004.


Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Paul,
By no means do I belabor the point to correct your own. It's an interesting subject for discussion and my viewpoints aren't intended to chase off anybody else's. Least of all your own. God bless you and thanks for being patient with me. --We can all pray our Holy Father's mission never finishes in such desperate straits. He will serve while he's able and then hand his life over to Our Saviour's mercy. God keep him!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 03, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Thank you all for a fascinating discussion. I am glad that I started it. I have been educated by it. Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), January 03, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

The current pontiff has been a very effective man his whole life. His health is failing. There may/will come a time between the end of his effectiveness and the end of his life.

2 Corinthians 12:10 -- For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

The pope's days of greatest "effectiveness" may be occurring now and in the days ahead -- even when he seems the weakest. We shouldn't just the value of what he has done, and will do, in a worldly way.

-- Juan Pable Segundo te quiere todo el mundo! (John Paul II @ We.Love You!), January 03, 2004.



Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Correction: We shouldn't judge the value of what he has done, and will do, in a worldly way.

-- Juan Pablo Segundo, te quiere todo el mundo! (John Paul II @ We.Love You!), January 03, 2004.

Response to Can the Church get along without the pope being effective?

Every time I hear talk of retirement or death in the media I am reminded of something my Archbishop said.

"I am always expecting a letter coming from the Holy Father that starts with the line, 'having reached the halfway point of my pontificate . . .'"

Let's hope so!

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), January 03, 2004.


I have to agree with Gene - The Pope's Ministry is Sacramental and Pastoral and Administrative - he may no longer be able to perform Administratively, but his Presence performs both a Pastoral Role and, mystically, a Sacramental one.

Ash

-- Ash (ashlar39@hotmail.com), January 06, 2004.


Not sacramental, ASh. We have sacraments, and we have our Church, with the Holy Father as head Shepherd here in the world. Sacramnets bring us God's grace. The Pope is a mystical leader; leading by example and self-sacrifice for his people. He can't give us grace; but He can pray for it. His prayer is ever before the Lord who guides him. Our Lord can bless His people for the Holy Father's sake, in answer to his petitions. Even many years into the future. That's why I believe it can't change because of age or illness. The Pope's petitions are precious to Jesus; just as his sufferings are precious.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 06, 2004.

Hello Gene -

I only meant that his role was Sacramental in the sense that he Celebrates Sacrments, not that he *is* one - you are correct.

-- Ash (ashlar39@hotmail.com), January 07, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ