Sola Scriptura

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http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/solascri.htm Here is an excerpt

THE EXPRESSION "SOLA SCRIPTURA"

From the time of the giving of the Decalogue on Mt. Sinai, when Holy God wrote with His finger on the tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18), until this present day, the written word of God has been extant in the world. The term "sola Scriptura" or "the Bible alone" as the measure of truth is short hand, as it were, for the emphatic and repeated statements of Scripture and of the commandment of God. The very phrase " It is written" means exclusively transcribed, and not hearsay. The command to believe what is written means to believe only the pure word of God. It separates from all other sources the corpus what a man is to believe. What is at stake before the All Holy God is His incorruptible truth.

In the very last commandment in the Bible God resolutely tells us not to add to nor take away from His Word.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19)

His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. (Psalm 119:160)

-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 15, 2004

Answers

Read it again: "the words of the prophecy of this book" Let's see it is talking about the Book of Revelation, not the whole Bible, and it it talking about prophecy. Nope, it is not saying that all faith is bound in scripture. Sorry. But then, you knew that.

"His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself" is not the correct translation (remember it wasn't originally written in Latin):
Here is the passage:
159 See how I love your precepts, LORD; in your kindness give me life.
160 Your every word is enduring; all your just edicts are forever.
161 Princes persecute me without reason, but my heart reveres only your word.

But it doesn't really matter.
Christ is the Word of Life, remember? God spoke to His people in many ways, not only via scripture. God has alway spoken to His people through tradition (ask any othodox Jew). Today Natural Law is part of God's Word, as is the Chruch's tradition. Nice try though, but then it wasn't your try but someone else's. Again, Sola Scriptura is simply is not in Scripture. It was a Protestant idea to gain control over the masses and make shure they did not have any influence from Rome as the princes looted the churches and monestaries and kept the money for themselves. As they did in Germany in the 1500s.

Please, use some logic, there was not a New Testament in the early Chruch, but they were still Christians with strong faith.

There are no verses in the Bible that teach the concept of Sola Scriptura.

Also, I beg you, read the archives. My patience, too, is limited, and you need to at least try to put some effort in.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.


I tried reading the archives. The only thing people used to establish anything is their own opinions, or the opinions of others, i barely saw anyone refer to the Bible.

-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.

If the Apostles believed in sola scriptura they would have had to reject the teachings of Christ, because the only scriptures they had were the Hebrew scriptures, and the teachings of Christ are not in the Old Testament. In any case, history plainly shows that no-one ever heard of the notion until the 16th century. Once you reject the true authority Christ gave us, His Church, you have to recognize something as an authority. So they decided a book compiled under the authority of the same Church whose authority they rejected would be their authority. 20,000 conflicting manmade denominations later, it is obvious the Bible cannot be anyone's authority. But now they are trapped in this manmade tradition, and the only way out is the unthinkable - return to the Church Christ founded for them - the pillar and foundation of truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 16, 2004.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter(2 Thess 2:15)

Whats your opinion about this my dear? David Ortiz couldn't answer this and made his forum "private" over at the Ask Jesus forum. :-)

Please don't be a David O. type of person.

May God bless you.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 16, 2004.


Paul M.

You didn't make any sense. You should seperate complete thoughts from each other.

the Bible is inspired word of God. What you said is that what the apostles wrote is not inspired word of God. The bible is written with divine inspiration, and God preserves his own Word. God doesn't need us, we need him.

They believed that The law, Torah or whatever they called it back in the day was inspired word of God. That if something didn't agree with it, it was wrong. Jesus fulfilled the law and prophecies. Including the one about a new covenant. How can you fulfill a prophecy and not tell people about it.

In any case, i didn't write the article, send your critique to the author. He doesn't need me to defend his viewpoint.

"Once you reject the true authority Christ gave us, His Church, you have to recognize something as an authority"

Please show me where it says in the bible that the church has any authority, and any of which you speak.

Jesus faught satan's temptations with his own law! He didn't ask the Pharisee's to use their authority to help Jesus. When Jesus taught the law, he taught with authority! Matthew 7:28-29 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

you people make me sick, you use your vain interpretations of what you think is the truth, you lead one thing to another and you play with words, then you establish it as fact. but not ONCE do you use the bible to support your claims.

David O. For once someone says something intelligent. I mentioned that one in my original post, but i lost it. That is a very important verse concerning tradition. along with this

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

These are the only two verses in the NT that speak of "tradition" in a positive sense that i know of.

this is what i get out of it.

"Tradition" in those verses probably means the teachings of Jesus Christ not yet written down, because it says "word or letter". Jesus hated the traditions of men. The only traditions Paul can speak of are those of Jesus himself. The verse mentions to stand firm to traditions taught by "us." who is this "us?" Decide that for yourself. But I believe that anything other than the Apostles is not correct. Only the Apostles knew first hand what Jesus handed down to his church. And the word is also "received." It doesn't suggest that there are always new traditions being thought up. Jesus commanded us to make disciples of others. He didn't hand us a ready made New Testament. He wrote the law on the hearts of his disciples. Those teachings were then written down. If anyone else comes to a different conclusion other than this, please let me know.

-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.



Paul M,

you people make me sick, you use your vain interpretations of what you think is the truth

statements like this should not be allowed here. if you dont delete the entire above post, please cut out the parts which violate the forum rules of courtesy

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 16, 2004.


"the Bible is inspired word of God."

Yes entirely, however the Church wrote the New Testament and defined its content. It could in the future add to it if it wished.

Jesus left a church not a book. The bible is about 500 yeas younger than the church.

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), January 16, 2004.


"What you said is that what the apostles wrote is not inspired word of God."

A: No, I most certainly did not say that. today we know that the New Testament is the inspired Word of God, because the Catholic Church has proclaimed it so. However, at the time of the Apostles, in the early days of the Church, the New Testament had not been written, let alone proclaimed to be the Word of God. Therefore, the only scriptures the Apostles had available to them at that time were the Old Testament scriptures. Therefore, any reference to "the scriptures" made by an Apostle in his writings or preaching must have been intended as a reference to the Old Testament scriptures. Today of course we can take such statements and apply them to New Testament scripture as well, but the original meaning of the writer must have been in reference to the Old Testament Hebrew scriptures, since those were the only scriptures that existed at the time. Therefore, if any Apostle or other New Testament writer claimed that "the Scriptures" contained the fullness of Christian truth, his meaning, at the time he wrote it, must have been that the Old Testament contains the fullness of Christian truth. Therefore the teachings of Christ would be superfluous at best. Obviously this is not a problem, because no New Testament writer ever claimed any such thing. Any Christian before the 16th century would have scorned the idea that the Bible is all we need. And any Christian today who actually follows the teaching of the Bible would also scorn the idea.

"Please show me where it says in the bible that the church has any authority, and any of which you speak."

A: "I give unto you the keys to my kingdom; whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven"; "He who hears you hears Me; he who rejects you rejects Me"; "if he will not listen to you, take the matter to the Church; if he will not even listen to the Church, have nothing more to do with him". The Church clearly is the final authority.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 16, 2004.


In addition to the scriptures already mentioned concerning the authority of the Church, we have the following:

Acts 16:4 Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees, which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account.

Matthew 18:17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and tax gatherer.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2004.


i stand corrected. Again there is a conflict in terms. The word "Church" is not the same for both of us. For me, its body of believers, for you, its the Catholic Church. My last post before this talked about tradition, which is pretty much in accordance with those verses. Where does the Catholic Church get its authority? From Jesus Christ. God's teachings are found within the NT. Yet the Catholic Church doesn't keep with those, makes up new ones that nullify the other ones.

-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.


Marcin, who do you think put the Bible together? ;)

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 16, 2004.

I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, WHICH IS THE CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF THE TRUTH. 1 Tim 3:14-15

The Church is the foundation of the truth, not scripture as fundamentalists assert. Besides that, truth does not contradict truth, which is precisely what you have within Protestant denominationalism. They divide over EVERYTHING! Can't agree on methods of baptism, salvation, or CREEDS!

Gail

P.S. "You said God's teachings are found within the NT. Yet the Catholic Church doesn't keep with those, makes up new ones that nullify the other ones" POPPYCOCK!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2004.


Yet the Catholic Church doesn't keep with those, makes up new ones that nullify the other ones.

Marcin,

The Catholic Church does keep with the teachings of the New Testament. Nothing in the Catholic faith contradicts Scripture. Catholics believe that Scripture is the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit and is therefore the Truth. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh. In my humble opinion, perceived contradictions occur due to different interpretations of Scripture and misconceptions of what Catholics really believe.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), January 16, 2004.


For me, its body of believers, for you, its the Catholic Church.

When I hear the words "Catholic Church," I don't think of some faceless "organization," but the Body of Christ of which we are all members. Those in this world and the next (the communion of saints). The key is, I think, that not all who profess Christ as Redeemer are in full communion with us. Again, in my humble opinion, they've abandoned some of the harder truths. Even though they too are followers of Christ, they might not necessarily have the fullness of the Truth.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), January 16, 2004.


i wish i could have something to add, but from marcin's arguments and others' counterpoints, this is a FEAST for my searching soul! i am learning a lot!

-- jason (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.


In Apostolic times "the body of believers" was indeed synonymous with "the Church", because there was only one Church, all believers belonged to it, and all believed the SAME God-given doctrinal truths and practiced the SAME God-given form of worship. However, today "the body of believers" - in other words "the sum total of all Christians" - is not synonymous with "the Church", because many "believers" abandoned the Church of the Apostles, forming unauthorized churches of their own, thereby becoming "semi-believers", accepting some of the truths of Christianity while rejecting others, and substituting new traditions of men for the doctrinal truths rejected. It is still true that the body of believers in the fullness of truth comprise the Church, just as in Apostolic times; but there are many believers in partial truth who are not members of the Church, by their own choosing.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 16, 2004.

No single church can give anyone the assurance of belonging in the Mystical Body of Christ; a ''believers'' membership. There is just one way to be truly ASSURED of it; and it is to give full authority to Peter-- the Rock upon whom Christ built the one Church which makes up His Body.

We know that Peter is here in the world, today as always, in the person of the Pope. Who denies the authority of the Pope alienates himself from the apostle Peter, and so from Christ's true Church.

No church is given authority to teach the Holy Gospel by Christ except the Catholic Church. Churches that preach the Gospel in error are not in perfect union with Jesus Christ, nor his Mystical Body. What life the INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS of their communities preserve within the Mystical Body of Christ depends on their personal faith in Catholic doctrines. Doctrines still kept in their churches from apostolic teaching; such as the sacrament of Baptism.

These churches in themselves are not apostolical, and although they preach Jesus Christ in their own manner, they haven't followed His complete teachings. They do not have His authority, and they corrupt some of the revealed truth.

Nevertheless, there are surely many good individual souls who through no real fault of their own have kept faith as their inner light allowed; and are separated through ignorance of the facts. They will not be saved by their sect's teachings; but by the LOVE they give to Our Holy Redeemer, who loves them in turn.

This is in keeping with His own commandments still taught in the Catholic Church. Which means that ultimately, some souls will have salvation through Catholic faith despite themselves!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.


topv+

-- top (1@1.!), January 16, 2004.

Marcin, anything you quote ferom www.jesus-is-lord.com is automatically suspect. That site is so full of vitriol. Among its allegations: The Bible was placed on the list of banned books (untrue -- only poor translations were); 50 million were murdered during the Inquisition (there weren't that many PEOPLE in Europe at the time!); Catholics pay to shorten their stay in purgatory (just plain false).

Jason, my prayers for you on your search! I sincerely hope you will experience the fullness of Christ in His church :) Some good resources are books by Scott Hahn and Karl Keating -- they explain a lot of these arguments better than I can!

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 16, 2004.


marcin from chicago,

You have to keep in mind is that Sola Scriptura is an assumption, you assume that the only rule of faith is found in scripture. An assumption is only useful if it is right. If you make decisions based on a false assumption you can make some big mistakes. There is no verse in the Bible that says scripture is the sole rule of faith. It does say that scripture is profitable, which the Catholic Church emphatically teaches.

For example, we cover almost the whole Bible over a period of three years in our liturgies. In the Baptist church I went to, we never came close to covering the whole Bible, just the convenient passages.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.


Isn't Sola Scriptura really a myth? I have yet to see a Baptist who has cut off his left hand or pluked out his eyes lest they offend.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), January 17, 2004.

Well it is a myth. One would think if sola scriptura is so important as to be the very foundational principle of the church, that Christ would have taught it, or Paul would have taught, or Peter would have taught it, or someone, for goodness sake, would have taught it.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.


It would seem that both Calvin and Luther did not believe in sola scriptura. At least not for themselves.

the very Reformation teachers who created the principle of the supreme authority of Scripture—sola scriptura—not only recognized this need for a strong, churchly tradition of Biblical interpretation, they embraced it. They were just as convinced as we are that the Bible ought to speak to every aspect of life (heavens, they stood on the shoulders of a millennium-long Christendom tradition of church-state alliance!) But they knew that in addressing both churchly and worldly questions, if you wanted to find the "Christian Way" you had to hold a conversation with pious interpreters from past ages.

Especially, at least for Luther and Calvin, this meant attending to the early church fathers.

See:
"The Bible Alone"? Not for John Calvin! from: Christianity Today



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.


I especially like the final paragraph:

"Finally, the Reformation was not an argument about everything, but about just some things. It was not, for example, about the Trinity or the two natures of Christ. The Protestants had their own slant on these doctrines, but they agreed basically with Roman Catholics. Both confessed the Trinity and the two natures of Christ. And if we ask where these accepted doctrines came from—they came from the Fathers' reflections on the Bible!"



-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.


WOW!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.

I have heard some Protestants tell me before that I should not become Catholic or Catholics are wrong because they worship the Church as a religion rather than worshipping God. However, the Catholic doctrine Solo Dei Verbum (sp?) ("The Word of God Alone") allows for the apostolic authority of the Catholic Church (through the papal line) to bring the Word of God to our time. This is the Catholic equivalent to the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura ("Scripture Alone" is the Word of God).

If looking to the Catholic Church for one's final authority could be considered worshipping the Church as a religion (from the logic of some of my Protestant friends), then couldn't we apply the same rule with some Protestants? Under this logic, wouldn't that mean that looking to the Bible alone as their sole authority would be worship of the Bible as a religion?

What do you all think about this reasoning?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 17, 2004.


Emily, most ''born again'' types of Christians definitely adore the Bible as actually God speaking.

Catholics do not adore, worship or place on a pedestal the assembly of faith (CHURCH) --because the Church worships God as one people. Not herself! We become ONE with Jesus Christ, through her holy sacraments-- and in communion with Him and one another, we worship our Almighty Father.

In our worship the scriptures are read to teach us all the truth; and to elevate our hearts up to God. He is heard in the scripture, given praise and worship in the liturgy, and adored in the Blessed Sacrament, Christ's own Body and Blood.

We have had all truth revealed to us as God's people. Catholics are given the power of PERFECT divine worship; through His Holy Son Our Lord. He is living and beloved amidst his holy people, the Church, in the celebration, daily all over the world and endlessly, of the Holy Eucharist.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 17, 2004.


Brilliant observations, Emily and Eugene.

I just want to add, though, that I do love to meditate on the scriptures, particularly the Wisdom literature. It's AWESOME. It seems that when I start my day off meditating on portions of text, I have a much better day, know what I mean?

The Rosary, however, is also a great way to start the day, and I can do that in the car!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.


Hi Emily,

I have heard some Protestants tell me before that I should not become Catholic or Catholics are wrong because they worship the Church as a religion rather than worshipping God. However, the Catholic doctrine Solo Dei Verbum (sp?) ("The Word of God Alone") allows for the apostolic authority of the Catholic Church (through the papal line) to bring the Word of God to our time. This is the Catholic equivalent to the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura ("Scripture Alone" is the Word of God).

The Catholic doctrine you are referring to is not known as Solo Dei Verbum but rather as Dei Verbum. The message of this document is NOT equivalent to Sola Scriptura.

Here are some highlights of the document:

Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.

Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 2, 42, Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and faithful a single common effort.

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church (The Magisterium), whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church (The Magisterium), in accord with God's most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

Emily, there is a dynamic relationship between Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and The Magisterium -- all inspired by the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, Protestantism forsook Sacred Tradition and The Magisterium -- therefore Protestantism is only one third of the Truth -- and even with that one third that was left (Sacred Scripture), Protestants could not agree with its correct interpretation, hence, 30000+ conflicting protestant denominations.



-- 5trx (5trx@be.catholic), January 17, 2004.


Charsy qutoed Scripture: Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down

The thing is, this applies to you. Catholics teach that God reveals His Truth through the teaching authority of the Church, thus making it the Word of God. You are denying God's Word (what is taught by the Church) and following the traditions of Protestantism that were handed down to you. These are the "teachings of men", whether you learned about it from your pastor, a bible commentary, another person, or your own intuitions upon reading the Bible. These are all the teachings and insights of humans, not divine authority.

If you really are a true Lover of Christ as you say, you will abandon mere human teachings and look to the Church that Christ established for the teachings of God.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), March 05, 2004.


Dear LOVER ...

Have you noticed what has happened among those who attempt to follow your advice? Thousands of conflicting, contradicting manmade denominations. Rampant untruth and false doctrine. 450 years of division and fragmentation, with new divisions and denominations appearing every month. Does this sound like Christ's plan for His Church?? "That they all may be ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE".

Notice what has happened among those who wisely reject your proposal, and follow true biblical teaching, seeking truth through the Church, the biblical pillar and foundation of truth, as the Bible teaches (1 Tim 3:15). ONE undivided Church after 2,000 years, still teaching and worshipping in unity.

By their fruits shall ye know them.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 05, 2004.


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