An honest question.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Why did the Pope kiss the Q'uran?
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004
Apparently, the Quran was a gift to him and he was acknowledging the gift. Should he have spat on it instead? :)This site has a dialogue about it: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ394.HTM
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 16, 2004.
To show his respect for another faith and its adherents, as we are all called to do. This is not to be confused with respect for the false doctrines of another faith. I personally believe this act of respect was imprudent, as it is so easily (and predictably) misconstrued; but his intent was quite clear.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 16, 2004.
Most likely a sign of ecumenicism and respect. In light of all the tensions past and present between Christians and Muslams,... The Pope is too politically savey and wise to push it away or trounce on it.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 16, 2004.
Forgot to add that the Quran also includes the Holy Name of Jesus.
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 16, 2004.
Who cares what the Quran says among its many contradictions.Ecumenism is an enemy of Christianity. All it does is show that believers are ok with unblelievers unbelieving. The pope is too concerned with politics, and compromises everything not to "disrespect" people involved with heathen practices. He even takes part in some of them.
http://www.garykah.org/html/pope2.htm
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Couldn't he just have said "thank you." and went on with his life? I know a bunch of Christians that have Qurans in their bookshelf so they can use it as bullets for Satan. They don't kiss it. You shouldn't even kiss the Bible.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Kissing is a custom in many old countries. Kissing was prevalent during N.T. times as well when Paul says "to greet each other with a holy kiss."
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2004.
Our Holy Father was known to kiss the ground upon landing in a country where he was welcomed. Todate he's kissed quite a few countries in which catholics were martyred, the church persecuted. I wonder if he was kissing the holy bloood of Christ's martyrs? Very likely. Dirt isn't an object of affection.If he really kissed a Koran (I've never seen that). He well might have been honoring Christ's holy martyrs who died in Islamic lands. Is that preposterous ???
Probably; but the Holy Spirit can enter a man and make him speak in tongues (they say). The Holy Spirit makes prophets prophesie, and why then can't He inspire a holy man to give honor to his martyred saints who were slain by Islam? With his paternal kiss and a blessing on Moslem ground (a book) ? ? ?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
"to greet each other with a holy kiss." each other does it ever say, "kiss our writings, books, etc" I kiss my family members because I love them. I was raised in a Polish household, and in Europe everyone kisses everyone when they greet. So? Kissing is a physical symbol of love that comes from the heart.You linked me to a website with two papists argueing with each other. Not ONCE is a Bible verse mentioned. Why don't you have a non-papist part of the debate? The second line made me raise an eyebrow. "Ecumenism as an Effort to Acknowledge Partial Truth Wherever it is Found"
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness whose end shall be according to their works.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Truth, truth, truth. Whole truth and nothing but the truth..
The pope can kiss books, statues, whatever. And you can defend him if you want, you can even kiss the Quran whenever you try to witness to Muslims. I'm sure that will show them your respect for them. Respect is overrated. Jesus never saught other people's respect. God wants our love, not respect.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Marcin,I think you're blowing the significance of this thing out of proportion.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 16, 2004.
I don't know, Faith, but he has been seen IN PUBLIC with the great Billy Graham.
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2004.
I think he fancies himself a prodigy of the Bible, another Al Sharpton. Has Marcin got the spirit, or what? HA!!!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
Eugene:"Our Holy Father was..." Which Holy Father. Mine is heavenly. Yours is earthly.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Woah! I must be interpreting that incorrectly, since it goes against Catholicism.
"He well might have been honoring Christ's holy martyrs who died in Islamic lands." So the book that some of those martyrs faught to get rid of, he kisses.
"Probably; but the Holy Spirit can enter a man and make him speak in tongues (they say)" No, the Bible says. Read Acts.
The Pope did this and that, yada yada. You're equating what the Pope does with Holy Scripture.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
So when the Pope commits, as i see it, blasphemy, its insignificant.Again, why are you attacking me? When all else fails, attack the person's charachter, awesome!
The Holy Spirit teaches me. He's much better at teaching me than any man, especially one that kisses a Satanic literary work.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
All else fails? You figure you can overturn Christ's Holy Church ??? Somebody needs protection from YOU?Bible- thumpers tried and failed for many centuries to horn in on Christ's Church, Marcin. Better men than you. I suppose you think we fail to understand the meaning of the verses you're draping over us here? You're the one talking from the bottom of the well. Not one of your passages is hard to explain. Several people here can stand you on your head. It has to do with God's will. Marcinius.
You have to ask respectfully, or you get no gruel. We only pay attention to good kids.
Ask us later; maybe we'll throw you a bone. Meanwhile-- Keep the faith!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
quit fooling yourself, it ain't holy, and its not Christ's, its the pope's.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Marcin, the Bible doesn't say to kiss lots of things, but we do. I kiss my dog (on top of her head, not on her mouth!). I've kissed my husband's photo. I've kissed my Bible. I don't think anyone would find those things objectionable.
-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 16, 2004.
I'm not trying to get rid of the Catholic Church. Why try when you cant. But at least get some people out of it. The prophecies of revelation wouldn't be fulfilled without the Catholic Church of Rome, city of seven hills.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Can you please add something intelligent to the topic of discussion? Don't shoot the messanger.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Don't worry, Marcin-- we won't shoot. We have to wait for you to say something intelligent. Then we'll have to shoot. But it won't happen. Where you going to buy intelligence?Seven HILLS ! ! ! What a powerful game plan you figured out, Marcin! Do you foresee peace? Do you foresee war? Do you bulge with biblical wisdom?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
This is a Catholic forum, Junior. How about you give us the name of your church so we can go bash them up for awhile. It always amazes me the audacity of some people to barge in where they WEREN'T INVITED, and go about bashing other people's church.Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2004.
Marcin, I know it is hard to understand, but we do recognize that the Muslems recognize the same God the Father that we do.Personally, I would not kiss the Koran, but that is the Pope's perogative, I guess. He would interpret the Koran as a good thing and a good book and look at the good passages of the book, I am sure. That is the way he is. He is a very holy man.
We don't have to follow his lead in this and kiss the Koran. He also likes the UN, and I don't.
Take care,
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
You must have never gone in depth into Islam. Allah used to be a pagan moon god, after Muhamed came around with the help of a certain group of people i rather not mention right now, made everyone adopt monotheism. the moon their religious symbol. Their god is a hateful, impersonal god that imposes his will on everyone. They don't recognize the Holy Trinity. Common among cults. Jehovah Witnesses and Mormon's have their own "inspired" scripture, but none of it is legit, neither is the Q'uran. Yet they say they worship the same god. To worship God in His fullness John 4:24, you need to do it in truth, which is Jesus Christ John 14:6. To say that God is only the Father, is like saying I don't have a body and spirit, but only a mind. The Islamic God is incomplete.your comment is a result ecumenism.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Allah wasn't a pagan God and in theological terms muslims aren't pagans. They, like Hebrews, are monotheists. They descend from Abraham, the patriarch of the Jews, and therefore they are distant relations of Jesus Christ by the flesh.They could be called in some ways heretical Jews. The main cause is a heretical false prophet, Mohammed. He led the people astray much as Luther led protestants astray. You are a result similar to muslims; having started out in the truth and wandering into the wilderness of error following a false prophet, Luther.
Mohammad considered himself a ''reformer'', and led others to believe he was a prophet. You have been deceived away from true faith in Christ, as he misled believers in Abraham's and Isaac's God. Mohammad corrupted the revealed truth of Israel's prophets. And you and your brethren corrupt the truth of Christ's Holy Church; distorting the Bible's words to suit your heresies.
You are in gross error but you can still repent, because you haven't eliminated the Church and you never will. You can still repent and come back.
As things are now, you are in darkness. You know practically nothing about ANY religion, and much less Jesus Christ's Gospel. You may NEVER know, if you fail to learn here. You came to the right place. You will not teach; you will learn something. God willing!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
Marcin,
Your history is a bit off, I think. You might want to read a book called "A History of God" by a believer of Islam, Karen Armstrong. She shows how Islam is patterned after Judism and Christianity. It is was put together as a covenent for Arabs like God's covenent with the Jews and the Christians. Is it real? Did God actually set up such a covenent? That you can argue. But don't do so in ignorance, read about it first. Allah is not interpreted by Muslems as a pagan diety, but as the God of Abraham that has always been around, even though the pagans did not know Him fully. Allah to a Muslem is the same as the God of the Torah.In Christ,
Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Reading Robert Morey's nonsense about Islam does not make one an expert on Islam. The idea of God has evolved in Islam as it has in Christianity. The problem with protestantism is that protestants interpret everything literally, the inevitable result of relying exclusively on words to understand truth.
-- J. Fernandes (goananda@hotmail.com), January 16, 2004.
Marcin,If your 'God' is going to get angry or send you to hell by kissing a Q'uran of a Bible, what kind of 'god' are you believing in?
Yes, we know that you are a confuss person in search of the Truth but you are at the opposite side. If you you keep seaching for the Truth and nothing but the Truth, you will eventually come to the Catholic Church. I am now praying for your conversion.
-- (vincentkoh@pd.jaring.my), January 16, 2004.
God brought the truth to the empire of Constantine, and gave impetus to his Holy Church by that conversion.Luther had no call to convert, but rebelled. Upon being commanded to desist in his heresy, he defied the authority of Peter. He left the fold and took with him his so-called church of the ''reformation''. Your ancestors all embraced the Catholic faith by the grace of God, only to have it stolen away from their descendents by a false teacher. You are an unfortunate descendent of theirs, too ignorant now to fight for the true faith. You joined the outlaws. The LAST name you should ever have picked for presenting yourself in a Catholic forum is ''faith''. Faith is what the first protestants cast off.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 16, 2004.
It just goes to show that the Pope is ONLY a man, not a God. He does not know everything and he is a sinner like all mankind unlike so many people who try to make him out to be "perfect" (weather kissing the Quran is right or wrong, I personaly think it's wrong and I do not respect Islam, but that's me)But I thank God for making the pope who he is, yes he is a holy man. I pray that I'll be able to be closer to God like he is.
And it seems to me since Jesus said "He who denies me denies the one who sent me"(the Father) Well, Muslums in one sense believe in the God of the Old Testament as Christians do, but they deny Christ is THAT SAME GOD. So in another sense they do not even really believe in the true God since they deny Christ. But that's my beliefs.
-- Jason Baccaro (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), January 17, 2004.
People can't accept truth sometimes even if it is placed right in front of there eyes but we hopefully can all accept love. Bashing marcin, isn't Love. or anyone else for that matter, We might as well all walk around with labels on our heads saying I am protestant God Loves me more Or I am catholic god loves me more. -A little side note on the whole Muslim thing-God is Allah they don't believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, he was just a prophet. 1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
-- josh (gt350cobra@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
What's your point josh? You came to serve a refined Gospel, better than the Catholic one?LOVE for Marcin? Out of all the good Bible scholars, you want to bring Marcin and me together in one big love fest? Good luck! I express my love for neighbor in forms that bring him closer to God. Marcin needs tough love or he'll walk right past Jesus Christ one day and never see Him. He needs a second chance at the truth of Christ's Gospel, the real Good News. It's in the Catholic Church; with us! Not on seven hills in Rome! Why are so many ''Bible Christians'' busting out in lunacy like that?
Josh; don't mistake defense of the truth; challenging Marcin's grave error-- with a hard heart. Love for God makes me militant; a soldier for Christ.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 17, 2004.
It's interesting to know that the heretics of the first few centeries (ones that denied Christ as God in the flesh) ALL sited from scripture and scripture alone. God does work in different ways such as tradition and his people but the Bilble IS the most sufficient rule of faith. We get so much understanding on who God is and what he's like from his Infallible Word and All of Catholic beliefs must NOT contadict the Bible or then we have a problem.But absolutley none do! The Bible is in COMPLETE harmony with the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church did indeed put the Bible together. But someone does need to interpret it as Jesus told his apostles "The Holy Spirit will lead you into all Truth" But where is this ALL TRUTH. The Methodist, Seven Day Baptist, Lutheran, or any of the other 35,000 with hundreds forming every day churches. All claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and for each verse they haromonize with another, a different denomination with take those SAME VERSES and interpret them their way believing it's the Holy Spirit.
Come on now, where is Truth. The Catholic Church can trace it's roots with an unbroken line back to the Apostles. The history of the Church is absolutley amazing.
As for tradition; Mathew2:23: the refrence to "He shall be called a Nazarene" is not found in the Old Testament, yet it was passed down by the prophets. Something that was God's word yet not scripturaly but orally.
Mathew23:2-3 : Jesus teaches that the scribes and pharisees have a binding authority based on Mose's seat which phrase or idea cannot be found in the Old Testament but in the Mishna (oral teaching) a teaching succession from Moses on down is taught. There is much more as well.
As for Mark7:8, If your traditional acts and beliefs are corrupt and contidict the Bible then they are useless and not from God.
Daniel9:6 We have not listened to THY SERVENTS THE PROPHETS (God's people)who spoke in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
Deuteronomy24:8 Levitical priests had binding authority in legal matters. They interpreted the Biblical injunctions 17:11. The penalty for disobedience was death 17:12 since the offender didn't OBEY THE PRIEST WHO STANDS TO MINISTER THERE BEFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD,19:16-17.
Those were information from a book called "More Biblical Evidence For Catholicism" By Dave Armstrong
I used to think Catholicism was corrupt too but I began to study it. Wow! I defenitly was am still am SURPRISED BY TRUTH.
Good books are "Catholic and Christian" by Alan schrech, "Biblical Evidence For Catholicism" and More Biblical Evidence For Catholicism" by Dave Armstrong (a former protestant)
-- Jason Baccaro (LegendsRborn@aol.com), January 17, 2004.
I read that no-one knew what 'the book' actually was. He was in an islamic country; however he also visited Eastern Catholic Churches and that this was actually a book from their liturgy.
-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), January 17, 2004.
Jason, I can so relate!! There are some great things going on in the Church!!!Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.
Jason: Nazarene, Nazorean, and Nazarethan are all different.In Acts, Jesus is called the Nazorean (word was not translated into Greek). It means Keeper ( of the covenant of God). It it related to the word branch, Nezer(Netser) meaning branch as used in Isaiah.
Whoever wrote Matthew 2 saw this passage in Isaiah : that a branch (netser) wil come out out the stock of Jesse (King David's father).
Nazarene means consecrated to God.
Jesus was not one because Nazarenes did not drink wine. jesus did.
Nazarethan means someone from Nazareth. Unfortunately, Jason Baccaro, there is no mention of a place called Nazareth by the Jewish historian Josephus, himself a Galilean or any other Greek, Jewish, or Roman historian of this place in Galilee before the end of the first century AD.
Did Nazareth really exist or was it created bya confusion with the word Nazorean?
Other confusions: Mary Magdalene(from Magdala). This town is not mentioned. In Hebrew is Mi(From) Gadol (big). That it, the older one or taller one. I beliueve because many Maries are mentioned in the New Testament.
Judas Iscariot (from Kerioth). The word exists in Hebrew: Kiriath Arba (the old name of Hebron, Abraham's burial place). Kiriath is like saying city today. It is not a name. many places start with the word Kiriath.
It also was the name of a group of jewish assassins and nationalists: The Sicarii.
So which city was this Kiriath or was Judas a Sicari?
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), January 17, 2004.
Look at this thread for information on Mary Magdalen
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=0096oW
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
Judas Iscariot (from Kerioth). The word exists in Hebrew: Kiriath Arba (the old name of Hebron, Abraham's burial place). Kiriath is like saying city today. It is not a name. many places start with the word Kiriath.From the old Catholic Encyclopedia:
The name Judas (Ioudas) is the Greek form of Judah (Hebrew "praised"), a proper name frequently found both in the Old and the New Testament. Even among the Twelve there were two that bore the name, and for this reason it is usually associated with the surname Iscariot [Heb. "a man of Kerioth" or Carioth, which is a city of Judah (cf. Joshua 15:25)]. There can be no doubt that this is the right interpretation of the name, though the true origin is obscured in the Greek spelling, and, as might be expected, other derivations have been suggested (e.g. from Issachar).http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08539a.htm
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
Nazarethan means someone from Nazareth. Unfortunately, Jason Baccaro, there is no mention of a place called Nazareth by the Jewish historian Josephus, himself a Galilean or any other Greek, Jewish, or Roman historian of this place in Galilee before the end of the first century AD.From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The town is not mentioned in the Old Testament, nor even in the works of Josephus. Yet, it was not such an insignificant hamlet as is generally believed. We know, first, that it possessed a synagogue. Neubaurer (La géographie du Talmud, p. 190) quotes, moreover, an elegy on the destruction of Jerusalem, taken from ancient Midrashim now lost, and according to this document, Nazareth was a home for the priests who went by turns to Jerusalem, for service in the Temple. Up to the time of Constantine, it remained exclusively a Jewish town. St. Epiphaenius (Adv. Haereses, I, ii, haer., 19) relates that in 339 Joseph, Count of Tiberias, told him that, by a special order of the emperor, "he built churches to Christ in the towns of the Jews, in which there were none, for the reason that neither Greeks, Samaritans, nor Christians were allowed to settle there, viz., at Tiberias, at Diocaesarea, or Sepphoris, at Nazareth, and at Capharnaum". St. Paula and St. Sylvia of Aquitaine visited the shrines of Nazareth towards the end of the fourth century, as well as Theodosius about 530; but their short accounts contain no description of its monuments. The Pilgrim of Piacenza saw there about 570, besides "the dwelling of Mary converted into a basilica", the "ancient synagogue". A little treatise of the same century, entitled "Liber nominum locorum ex Actis", speaks of the church of the Annunciation and of another erected on the site of the house "where our Lord was brought up". In 670 Arculf gave Adamnan an interesting description of the basilica of the Annunciation and of the church of the "Nutrition of Jesus".http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10725a.htm
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
"As for tradition; Mathew2:23: the refrence to "He shall be called a Nazarene" is not found in the Old Testament, yet it was passed down by the prophets. Something that was God's word yet not scripturaly but orally. "Nazorean, not Nazarene. From the New American Bible:
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazorean."From the footnotes on this passage: Nazareth . . . he shall be called a Nazorean: the tradition of Jesus' residence in Nazareth was firmly established, and Matthew sees it as being in accordance with the foreannounced plan of God. The town of Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, and no such prophecy can be found there. The vague expression "through the prophets" may be due to Matthew's seeing a connection between Nazareth and certain texts in which there are words with a remote similarity to the name of that town. Some such Old Testament texts are Isaiah 11:1 where the Davidic king of the future is called "a bud" (neser) that shall blossom from the roots of Jesse, and Judges 13:5, 7 where Samson, the future deliverer of Israel from the Philistines, is called one who shall be consecrated (a nazir) to God.
I hope this helps the discussion.
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
I also seem to remember from somewhere that a Nazirite was a Jew, often an Essene who had taken a vow of celebacy. I know many feel that John the Baptist and Jesus may have been associated with the Essenes. Could this be the root of the priestly vows of celabacy that have come down to us today?
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 17, 2004.
From the footnotes of the NAB: Nazirite: from the Hebrew word nazir, meaning "set apart as sacred, dedicated, vowed." The nazirite vow could be either for a limited period or for life. Those bound by this vow had to abstain from all the products of the grapevine, from cutting or shaving their hair, and from contact with a corpse. They were regarded as men of God like the prophets; cf Amos 2:11-12. Examples of lifelong nazirites were Samson (Judges 13:4-5, 7; 16:17), Samuel (1 Sam 1:11), and John the Baptizer (Luke 1:15). At the time of Christ the practice of taking the nazirite vow for a limited period seems to have been quite common, even among the early Christians; cf Acts 18:18; 21:23-24, 26.
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
Yes Bill,And when the celibate period ends in marriage, I believe it was customary for them to shave their beards and cut their hair.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), January 17, 2004.
I don't see a direct connection between celibacy and the nazirite vow. Do you have a reliable reference? The Essenes went further than simply the nazirite vow.
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
yes, my God would get angry if i kissed the q'uran. for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of eternal life is Jesus Christ our LORD. I am forgiven, and i'm going to heaven. with out a single doubt in my mind.a few of you need to take a philosophy class or two. your logic is seriously flawed. but here is a quick lesson. if a = b, and b = c then a = c, some of you people will go as far as to say a = d
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
Marcin,
I am not sure that kissing the Quran is sinful, especially if it was given to you as a gift, no matter how much you find it distasteful. It was a very perfound gift given to the pontiff of the Church, a Church that in the past persecuted and was persecuted by Muslims. I see it as a kiss of peace. The Pope is a very holy man.
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.
I don't wish to involve Marcin in the question, but just for argument's sake:Creating scandal in the Church of Jesus Christ is very serious; as everybody saw the past year or two, with priests everywhere coming under suspicion of grave sins. We must not cause scandal. Yet Christ prophesied clearly the scandals to come.
If our Holy Father truly gave the Koran a kiss in public, it's no surprise many Catholics are scandalized. How could he do such an awful thing?
Could it be because the Pope, like Jesus did, wants to set an example? To say, ''--The Islamic people are believers in a just God; no matter if they have been deceived by a false prophet. I have this opportunity now to show them as the Shepherd of Christ's holy people, that we do not come in hatred or to destroy their faith. We have the Gospel to offer the whole world; and they will not be excluded if they believe and join us with Jesus Christ. As a token of our love for all people of the world, I humble myself to offer this kiss.''
It would be a scandal if the Pope did it for any other reason. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Those outside the Church, like Marcin, may recall that Christ was loving & kind to Samaritans in His day. Jews despised all Samaritans. Today the Samaritan is a Moslem; nothing has really changed. Our Pope is a representative on earth of Jesus; who loved every soul He ever saw. He loved lepers, prostitutes and sinners. We have to back away and examine how we treat the leper and the sinner and the prostitute in our midst. Are we just scandalized? Or are we true Christians? Pope john Paul is not scandalized by these unfortunate sinners. He isn't proud or judgmental. Why can't all Catholics emulate him?
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 17, 2004.
of course islam is patterened after christianity and judiasm, so is mormonism, jehovah witnesses, etc. thats a=d logic.josh is right, jesus said if it doesnt come in the name of Jesus Christ, it ain't from God. Read a little about the mary appiritions, they never mention Jesus. At least the ones that tell you to do crazy things, like the rosary.
No, my history is NOT off. A good book is "kingdom of the cults" by Walter Martin.
Emporer, Pope Constantine, whichever title you prefer, forced conversion, most didn't care and continued in their pagan ways. Read the history of Christmas, Easter, St. Valentine's Day, All Saints Day. They were major pagan holidays, but the catholic church wanted it to be easier for pagans to convert so they made em christian feasts.
"I personaly think it's wrong and I do not respect Islam, but that's me" comments like these show a lack of conviction. if you say something, be sure you know its true, or that you stand firmly behind it. Because what comes out of your mouth is a reflexion of what's in your heart. If i witness to some guy and said "i personally think jesus will save you if you ask him, but that's just me." won't help him the least bit. just a bit of constructive criticism.
eugene, salvation is not in the catholic church. more cult mentality, every cult thinks they got it right, that their religion is is IT. Well, i care less what religion you are, Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY TO SALVATION. thats it. it doesn't say in the bible, THE CHURCH is the only way to salvation.
"The Bible is in COMPLETE harmony with the Catholic Church" Note the way this person worded his sentence. in harmony with the church. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
there could be 10000000000000000000000000 denominations. If they are in the name of Jesus, and believe the bible is the inerrant, pure word of God, they're on the right path.
Essenes were a Judaic cult. Even though what we had as the Bible agreed with the respective Dead Sea scrolls, the rest was just apocryphal.
and of course the "debate" goes back to semantics. Catholic Church is NOT the original church. for lack of a better word, this debate and most are settled automatically when terms are defined. For example, the creation and evolution debate is settled most of the time simply when "macro-evolution" and "micro-evolution" are defined.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.
he was loving and kind, but there were times when he put his foot down, overturning tax collector's tables, kicking people out of the temple grounds.
-- marcin from chicago (coolis00@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.