I've received several invitations from friends to attend yoga classes but I've repeatedly declined. I recently saw a yoga program on PBS presenting yoga as being good for balance, breathing, centering, strength, stretching, etc. I know that it has its roots in the east. I am still skeptical and not convinced that it is just merely a type of exercise. The PBS show seems convincing ... but does yoga contradict Catholicism? Am I in danger of participating in the New Age movement if I do yoga? I know the Catholic Church assimilated Aristotelian philosophy through the genius of Saint Thomas Aquinas ... is yoga something to be assimilated by Catholics as well in the quest for good health?

-- to yoga or not to yoga (should@i.yoga), January 17, 2004

Answers

Imho, you can just use yoga as any other exercise. Some meditate, others don't. Do you pray while you're doing push-ups or jumping jacks or running on a treadmill-- probably not.

Yes, it has a religious background, but that doesn't mean one has to subscribe to inside.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 17, 2004.

The danger with Yoga is that often the practitioners bring in Eastern meditation. This is not Christian contemplation, but Eastern meditation, which really distracts from your religious path. If you only use Yoga for the exercise, there is no problem. Recite a rosary during the meditation period, if your instructor inserts one.

Many don't know it, but true Yoga is a religion. The religion is not compatible with Christianity.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.

Great advice, Bill. If you are simply doing Yoga exercises, no problem. Exercise, in and of itself, is neither Christian or non- Christian, but it's what you do DURING the Yoga which is the problem. Yes, meditate on the Rosary, or put on some praise and worship music and STRETCH AWAY!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2004.

Meditation doesn't have to be religious in nature, either. Good grief! You can use the time to meditate on anything that is troubling you, for example, or just concentrate on how your body is responding to the exercise. Or daydream.

Unless someone is studying with some bona fide guru type they should be perfectly safe from any religious influence in any American yoga classes. Yoga is just being touted as yet another fitness trend, eventually something else will take its place, and a few years later, someone will bring it back to the forefront again.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 17, 2004.

I too agree with Bill completely. There is a growing movement in this country to introduce what appears to be tame (neutral) meditation and other practices from the East. But often, though not always, they are a trojan horse. What appears tame on the surface, is not compatible with Christianity below the surface. Discernment.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 17, 2004.

Bill,

Just out of curiousity, what would you think of someone that studies a Korean martial art? And do you think this(same yoga effect) would pull them away from Catholicism? And how long would it take for the evil to set in?

Thanks in advance?

-- - (David@excite.com), January 18, 2004.

Dave,
Yoga is not a martial art, it is a part of the Hindu religion.

From a Hindu site:
In fact, it is said in Sanskrit: "Brahma is Eternal Bliss." Brahma can be experienced through direct perception deep within one's own mind. Well-performed spiritual practices help explore and master the mind and eventually lead to the realization of our inherent eternally blissful existence, i.e. unity with Brahma, the Eternal Bliss.

All teachings of the Tantra Yoga tradition are preparations and directions leading one towards the unfolding of this realization. Classical Tantra Yoga tradition uses two main approaches to the realization of Brahma: The first one is simply a gradual effort to release oneself from habitual or addictive behaviors. It is a preparation for the other, subtler system of practices, called yoga. Classical yoga training teaches sophisticated methods of releasing oneself from habitual behavior and deepening one's feeling of connectedness to the Eternal Bliss. The final spiritual consummation is the direct experience of the Eternal Bliss that leads to dissolution of individuality, which is the source of all happiness.

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-tantrayoga.htm
http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_8/msg00226.html

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.

Ninety-nine percent of the yoga classes in this country are purely about exercise. If you happen to find the one percent that also contains some Eastern philopophy/religion, just don't go back :)

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.

I am Catholic and practice Yoga. I began to take the class through advice from my doctor. I did not understand at the time that it had anything to do with a religon but my Yoga instructor (he practices the Hindu religon) did inform us of that fact. I was very uneasy at first and when I heard him chanting and realized it had religous significance. My instructor aware of my feelings advised me that the meditating on the rosary was very effective and recommended. He never taught any of the hindu prayers, in fact I'm just as ignorant of the religon now as I was before hand. I believe the excersizes can prove to be very healthy, simply be sure to learn from someone who respects your beliefs and will not force their own upon you.

-- Fabiola (ubuibme77479@nomail.com), January 18, 2004.

It has nothing to do with the hindu religion. What happens is, a lot of the people who practice Yoga in the East practice the hindu religion, and while using this relaxing exercise, relates it to their religion and the state of peace etc. It is an integral part of the Indian martial art Kalaripayattu (the origin of martial arts), and could be compared to mixing Tai Chi, different forms of Kung Fu, and using their particular religion with it, in the far East.

I have seen a lot of devout catholics who practice Yoga which is actually a good exercise, who practice Kalaripayattu, other far Eastern techniques, all the while meditating about God. Just because people of different faith use it to meditate upon their principles and religion doesn't mean the art is corrupted.

Indeed some Hindus try to link the exercise to the state of peace and methods to attain it, said in their religion, which could be found in every religion. Practicing Yoga as an exercise and practicing it under someone who forces their belief/view of it on you are totally different. It is the same as saying that practicing archery/bathing in a river is anti-catholic, because it is linked to some Hindu Gods and their beliefs. You meditating about another religion/idols while doing Yoga is different from you meditating about God while doing it.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.

Abraham,
I suggest you read this history of Yoga:
http://www.yrec.org/shorthistory.html

And this one
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14626a.htm

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.

Thanks for the information Bill. I never had that information. It is also disturbing because I know some catholic priests back there who adds Yoga during retreats, that too with the permission of the bishop. I am still confused what to make of it.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.

As long as the hindu meditation termans and chants are avoided, it seems like a perfectly normal excercie method, I think.

-- Abraham T (Lijothengil@yahoo.com), January 18, 2004.

Abraham, Yes, as long as the eastern meditation and religious elements are taken away, from what I know it is innocent exercise. Strange that a priest would not use a Catholic contemplative technique during a retreat though. You might want to ask him.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 18, 2004.

Church Infiltrated in this "New Age"

With eastern philosophies and techniques entering and being embraced by priests, nuns, etc. in the Catholic Church, to now hear that Yoga is being practiced in some parishes is NOT "strange" unfortunately. Further, some of the so-called Contemplative Meditation movements now practiced in many churches are actually a synthesis of Eastern Meditation/Beliefs and Transpersonal Psychology "cloaked" in Pseudo- Catholic verbage done simply to attract and guide well-intentioned Christians down a different path for a New Age.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.

What about WHAT CHURCH SAYS? Please let's see this info from AP Dec- 14-1989: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vatican Warns About Zen, Yoga

VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican Thursday cautioned Roman Catholics that Eastern meditation practices such as Zen and yoga can ``degenerate into a cult of the body'' that debases Christian prayer.

``The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be `mastered' by any method or technique,'' said a document issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The document, approved by Pope John Paul II and addressed to bishops, said attempts to combine Christian meditation with Eastern techniques were fraught with danger although they can have positive uses.

The 23-page document, signed by the West German congregation head Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was believed the first time the Vatican sought to respond to the pull of Eastern religious practices.

Ratzinger told a news conference that the document was not condemning Eastern meditation practices, but was elaborating on guidelines for proper Christian prayer.

By Eastern methods, the document said, it was referring to practices inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism such as Zen, Transcendental Meditation and yoga, which [may] involve prescribed postures and controlled breathing.

Some Christians, ``caught up in the movement toward openness and exchanges between various religions and cultures, are of the opinion that their prayer has much to gain from these methods,'' the document said.

But, it said, such practices ``can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.''

The document defined Christian prayer as a ``personal, intimate and profound dialogue between man and God.''

Such prayer ``flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism.''

Attempts to combine Christian and non-Christian mediation are ``not free from dangers and errors,'' the document said.

It expressed particular concern over misconceptions about body postures in meditation.

``Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life.

``Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.''

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is the Vatican's watchdog body for doctrinal orthodoxy. The document did not name any particular individuals, groups or religious movements that have strayed in the use of Eastern meditation practices but the congregation often acts in response to complaints.

AP-NY-12-14-89 0937EST (C) Copyright 1989, Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks and may God bless You all!

In Cordibus Jesu Et Mariae

A Friend

-- A Friend (never@mind.tv), January 19, 2004.

Are "runner's highs" dangerous too?

Gee, some of those people at the Vatican have 'wayyyy too much time on their hands.....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 19, 2004.

GT,
The Vatican issued that letter because people were falling away from the Church and embracing these eastern and new age ideas as gospel. The Vatican is chartered to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in this case is definately doing their job.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.

bill,

several times on this thread youve blanket rolled eastern meditation into one lump and thrown it all into the furnace. As one who is experience with some basic forms of eastern meditation, I can tell you that simple meditation is NOT so contrary to faith as you might seem to think. then again, most people think of meditation in terms of a religious experience, of which it is not.

my uncle, a professor in ju-jitsu, and a doctorate of eastern philosophy, would most likely describe meditations more in terms of a relaxedly concious examination of the subconcious mind allowing for deeper reflection. true meditation of this form is not easy, and not always safe. because the nature of meditation is on the surface of subconcious, changing even simple things can have drastic effect on the personality of the meditator. an unexperienced meditator changing things about their "place" is likely to damage their mind in a way that can take years to fix, if there is a fix at all...

essentially, however, meditation is safe if you know enough not to screw with things that dont need to be played with. meditation should be learned only from an experienced trainer with excellent qualifications. I have personally found it beneficial and relaxing, and when i have contemplated religious matters from a state of meditation, it has affected me much more, as such thought sends "riples" through your subconcious as well.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 19, 2004.

There are two basic goals of eastern meditation. Either to free the mind from the body or to find nirvana. Both are based upon the idea that life is pain and we need to somehow transcent the pain. Neither has any relation to Christianity and leads away from finding Christ and imbedding Christ's message into your life. As the pope is now showing us, suffering is part of being, and part of life. Read Job. Hey, read the New Testament! Eastern meditation is a distraction and many fall away from their faith while practicing it because it is so all absorbing. It leads no where. Read the article from the Vatican posted today on this list.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.

But again, just because you take a Yoga class doesn't mean you have to believe in all of the stuff that goes with it. And meditation does not have to have any religious aspect at all--you can just think about anything or nothing, or listen to your heart beating, and give thanks to God for being flexible enough to enjoy Yoga.

Most Yoga taught in the states is position only, they use the old names for the same reason Ballet is spoken of in French terms, and Opera in Italian, so that everyone is talking about the same thing. You can attend Catholic Masses and not believe in them either, or you can attend them in the spirit of seeing if anything happening there can help you grow closer to God. We all have different levels of depth of faith, since we are all individuals Even Protestants can often make a point that makes you stop and reflect on God and your Catholic faith.

Some Yoga position names are hard to relate to the position, so you can name them whatever you want that perhaps makes more sense to you, and removes the religious aspect if it is that offensive. There is a book called "Sleeping Bag Yoga" geared towards hikers and bicycle campers that does this very thing--decent book, but small, expensive, and the binding is not very sturdy. I would recommend buying used, and drilling holes half an inch in and using a binder type clip.

These excerpts from the article listed above are especially, well, not very convincing arguments.

"By Eastern methods, the document said, it was referring to practices inspired by Hinduism and Buddhism such as Zen, Transcendental Meditation and yoga, which [may] involve prescribed postures and controlled breathing.

Singing well involves "prescribed postures and controlled breathing". Does that make it bad? What about the boys' choirs and the Castrati (sp)? People hearing beautiful Christian music, or Gregorian Chant, are often "touched" by it, or moved to tears. Is that bad? Should we have quiet Masses?

"But, it said, such practices ``can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.''

You want "cult of the body", go after weightlifting, not Yoga.

"The document defined Christian prayer as a ``personal, intimate and profound dialogue between man and God.'' Such prayer ``flees from impersonal techniques or from concentrating on oneself, which can create a kind of rut, imprisoning the person praying in a spiritual privatism.''

Huh? If you aren't praying out loud and or with others, you are in a "spiritual privatism", Yoga or no.

.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 19, 2004.

bill, again, you said a couple of things which confirm my belief that you have no more understanding of meditation than i understand the lebanese language...

There are two basic goals of eastern meditation. Either to free the mind from the body or to find nirvana.

actually, there are MANY goals of eastern meditation. the two you list are two commonly misconcieved notions of meditation. freeing the mind from the body is not a goal whatsoever... in fact it is quite the opposite. instead one connects with the subconcious mind in a harmonious introspection of themselves. there is no out of body experience, although the simple descriptor to an unknowledgeable person would indeed sound like this was the goal.

furthermore, meditation does not seek to find nirvana. meditation is merely a method of relaxation and thought, much like hypnotism, although self induced and controlled. it is the thought which is the means to an end. switch from reflection on nirvana, and you might find yourself seeking deeper spiritual Christian meaning. the focus of meditation is the choice of the meditator, it is not forced.

Both are based upon the idea that life is pain and we need to somehow transcent the pain.

no, buddism is based on that, but buddism does not equal meditation. meditation is a tool, not an ideology.

Eastern meditation is a distraction and many fall away from their faith while practicing it because it is so all absorbing. It leads no where.

wrong again, some of the most devout Catholics i know practice meditation from time to time. it clears the mind, relaxes the body, relieves stress, allows deep introspection, and provides a place of mental silence for thought about Christian subjects. what you are saying is foolish, because you sound like faith or jeanie, condemning something you dont even understand, because you think what you 'know' is what is real.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 19, 2004.

bill, again, you said a couple of things which confirm my belief that you have no more understanding of meditation than i understand the lebanese language...

OK, confession time: I was a monk for 7 years. Never made solumn vows because the life seemed too easy for me... Anyway, during that time one of my best friends was a Zen monk who would visit our Benadictine monestary and taught me all kinds of things. I also read a lot of Thomas Merton, Alan Watts, Zen Masters, the Seven Pillers, etc. Yes, I understand Zen meditation. It didn't add to Catholicism for me. The Zen masters I talked with agreed that was probably true, that meditation is not compatible with Catholicism. Hey, even Thomas Merton's Zen friends told him that and he didn't listen (he was a very stubbern man). Yes, Cistertians can be stubborn too.

Sorry to disappoint any Mertonites or New Agers out there.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.

allows deep introspection,

If you are indulging in deep introspection, you are not meditating, you may be contemplating, but that is a Western Christian technique, not an Eastern meditative technique. The whole purpose of meditation is to fee the mind of ALL THOUGH, including introspection.

Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 19, 2004.

If you are indulging in deep introspection, you are not meditating, you may be contemplating, but that is a Western Christian technique, not an Eastern meditative technique.

and again, i would ask how you know everything about eastern meditative techniques? especially considering that a doctor of eastern philosophy would seem to disagree with you? the truth is, youre only regurgitating that which has been spoon fed to you in wholly incomplete manner.

The whole purpose of meditation is to fee the mind of ALL THOUGH [T], including introspection

in all actuallity, there would be very little use in clearing the mind of all thought. that would wholly defeat the purpose of medition in the first place. No, the purpose of clearing your head of all CONCIOUS thought is so that you can begin to direct your mind into a state where you are more in touch with your sub concious. once in such a state, concious thought is inside of a sub concious 'shell' and thought is wholly capable, if on a different, more guarded level. as i have said, meditation of this style should not be done by an inexperienced person

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 19, 2004.

"i would ask how you know everything about eastern meditative techniques?"

Does he need to know?

My immediate reaction, paul, is to ask the same question of you... how would you know?

As a Catholic, you shouldn't. Those things are dark things, and very dangerous. Meditate as you Mother instructs you; it's not the same as these other things.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 19, 2004.

Just do the exercises without meditating--problem solved.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 20, 2004.

You can throw Thomas Keating in with Merton and the New Agers as well. Keating is the former President of "The Temple of Understanding" at the U.N., originally founded by Lucifer (Lucis) Trust of Alice Bailey fame. The goals of the Temple of Understanding is a One-World Religion (not Catholicism/Christianity). Keating now heads Contemplative Outreach, LTD. ("Centering Prayer"). I have heard him speak and I have read his words. He uses quasi-Christian phrases out to the listener about Cosmic Christ, Oneness, Christ Consciousness and Ultimate Reality, etc. - which tends mesmerize the "unknowing" listener and reader. Sorry folks - this is New Age whose goals is to diminish the importance and role of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 20, 2004.

See, there you go Gabo; that's the aping strategy at work, and nobody can involve themselves with it and keep their spiritual purity intact.

I was in a restaurant one time waiting, and picked up this magazine; I believe it was called "The Light Connection". The name alone should put any decent Catholic on guard, huh?

But there's this article in there on fruits of meditation, and I head for that and start reading. Wow! This sounds a lot like meditation on the Rosary... so I keep reading. See, now it's getting a little uncomfortable because it's all too recognizable. There's got to be the deviation in there somewhere, so I keep reading and looking, and finally I find the poison all inside one sentence embodied within the whole article. I wish I had it in front of me so that I could post it up, but I don't. It was just one sentence that contained the thesis of the whole article, and it was in direct diabolical inverse to Catholic truth; something about nothingness where there should have been Being, and silence where the should have been The Word.

You can't walk safely down this New Age road or have anything to do with anything connected to it at all; you will be had. It's loaded with voices that you cannot listen to.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

emerald,

Does he need to know?

dont be silly. should faith have an understanding of catholic belief before she condemns us for things we dont even beleive? of course he should know before he comments... that goes without saying.

My immediate reaction, paul, is to ask the same question of you... how would you know?

well, as i already explained, my uncle is a doctorate in eastern philosophy. i learned about meditation from him.

CONVERSLY, the magazine "the light connection" sounds a bit like they know as little about meditation as bill seems to know. meditation, like to prayer, is merely a tool. it is not in and of itself an act which is contrary to the faith. prayer is a great tool of faith, would you condemn it because some pagans use prayer as well? No? then perhaps you might not consider damning something you dont understand just because a few new agers have corrupted its meaning.

truth be told, there is very little about eastern meditation which can actually be deemed to be new age in nature. its a methodology of thought. the new age meditation is more a perversion of that method.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 20, 2004.

Something can't be perverted if there isn't still some element of good in it; if good is being, and all being is gone, then there's nothing to pervert.

What I'm getting at, paul, is that there is in fact something to these meditations you speak of, over and above a harmless exercise. Something is happening, and that something is indicates a connection to realities of some kind. If that's the case, it's not going to stay in a disconnected middle ground or neutral area as you posit, imho. It's going to immediately seek to resolve itself for good or for evil; this kind of activity cannot hang itself in uncommitted, disconnected territory for long.

In other words, if one takes on this meditation assuming a stance of neutrality, they're going to be sticking their head into a certain arena of forces, and immediately is going to begin a tug-of-war for possession of that person's attention and ultimately their soul. Even if the meditation is supposed to a harmless exercise of the natural powers of the human mind, still, IF something is going on then immediately it will seek to resolve itself in one or the other direction of good or evil. Imho meditation of this sort is apple-in- the-garden variety of knowledge, and there's going to be a loss of innocence involved if it's practiced.

Meditation without a proper object of meditation is a blank check for evil entities. If they can be had access to for a simple home-made ouija board put into use, this indicates how ready and available they are to serve in a man's destruction. That's why I cringe when someone proposes safety in any middle ground or neutral territory.

By way of example here's what I mean: Technically, as a free citizen in the United States, you should be able to legally walk the streets without being accosted, right? So someone loads themselves down with diamonds and gold chains clutching large wads of cash in each hand and begins walking the streets of East L.A. at 2 am, whistling as loud as he can. He has that right, right? Nobody is going to accost him... they'll respect that man's rights. But we all know what the ultimate outcome of that stituation is going to be.

When someone sticks their head into meditation, the objects of those meditation need to be purely and solely Catholic truths, or there is no safety. Evil is a perversion of good, and it's by means of good things improperly used and disconnnected from their proper place that we are wedged away from God and from safety.

Or try this: replace the topic of conversation, meditation, with different topic such as sexual morality. See if the same principle applies. There is no harmless, neutral sexual activity, right? It must be place squarely in it's proper context of marriage and family, and cannot exist outside it without being a perversion at some level. Imho, the same or a similar principle is at work with the subject of meditation; far better and safer to tie the meditation to Catholic objects of contemplation from the very start.

Sorry for the banter, paul. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but then again maybe not; in either case, give the matter some consideration.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

Not to leave you empty-handed, here's something I ripped off from real and authentic Eastern Mysticism that will give a worthy, Catholic object of meditation; I just came across it last night. It's awesome. The Eastern and Western Catholic Churches, together under Rome, seem to a little like the right and the left hemispheres of the brain. Same brain, though.

Nature abhors a vacuum, so if anyone insists on emptying their minds, then they should fill it up fast with Catholic truth before someone else does. You could print off that link and meditate on that until you're dead and never be finished, but you'll be safe. =)

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

"Imho, the same or a similar principle is at work with the subject of meditation; far better and safer to tie the meditation to Catholic objects of contemplation from the very start."

Great, now people reading this are going to think Catholics worship statues and beads. You meant "subjects" didn't you? ;-)

If you want to do something well, you concentrate on it. Pitchers concentrate on pitching well. Olympic divers concentrate so that they can focus on their dive to the exclusion of other things, like the cheering crowd. Meditation in Yoga can mean just trying to get into that particular position.

God gave us wonderful bodies, it is wrong not to take care of them and develop them.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 20, 2004.

4. object -- (the focus of cognitions or feelings; "objects of thought"; "the object of my affection")

That kind of object, or better yet, the meaning which is expressed in the use of the words objective as in objective truth; that kind.

"God gave us wonderful bodies, it is wrong not to take care of them and develop them."

They corrupt and die; no one can stop this.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

So people should just vegetate in front of their TV sets?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 20, 2004.

So people should just vegetate in front of their TV sets?

People should weigh the importance of gaining/restoring health to a boy that will putrify & rot agains gaining/restoring health to their soul, which is immortal.

Oh, and they should throw away their TV sets.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 20, 2004.

No; but maybe in front of the Blessed Sacrament. If not there, then with the objects of the Faith to observe in some way; read something, talk about them, meditate on them. If the time is available, then a choice is being made; the right choice has to be made before it's too late and choices are carved in stone for all eternity.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 20, 2004.

Err, that's "body" that will putrify & rot.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 20, 2004.

What happened to syncretism? I feel that it is very important to Catholicism that we continue this tradition of using things of other cultures to help other people join Catholicism. This is why at African Masses they do ethnic dances. Did these dances have a religious background? Sure. But now it is a Catholic use. This is the same as Our Lady of Guadalupe appearing as one of the Aztec goddesses.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), January 20, 2004.

What happened to syncretism? I feel that it is very important to Catholicism that we continue this tradition of using things of other cultures to help other people join Catholicism.

2 questions:

1. Is bringing people into the Faith the purpose of syncretism? and

2. Is that / has that goal been accomplished?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 20, 2004.

emerald, there is still something you dont seem to understand, and without a proper teacher i dont know that i can explain it quite well enough to get the point through.

you seem to think of meditation as an emptying of the self, allowing whatever wants to come to you to be what directs your meditation. this is a very niave understanding of what occurs. meditation is not an emptying of thought, but directing thought towards an accomplished end: to be in touch with the subconcious mind.

you speak of demonic influence, and yes, it is possible to dabble with dangerous things when meditating. that is why it is integral to learn from a strongly educated person so that you are trained in what constitutes danger and how to protect ones self from it. if you are finding nothing but evil in your meditation, however, the primary reason is because something is wrong with YOU. all that meditation is focuses on the self, the mind, thought.

It is, however, possible for evil spirits (demons) to probe at your subconcious. they do it all the time, regardless of meditation or no. being openly in a state of meditation allows you to push that influence away in a direct measure. not permanently, mind you, we are all condemned to temptation, but there are defenses against outside influence in meditation.

so, stop buying into the hollywood meditation, which is not real, and perhaps learn something of truth before you blanket roll all of eastern meditation into a lump with new age hocus pocus and call it all bad.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 20, 2004.

Previously posted: What happened to syncretism? I feel that it is very important to Catholicism that we continue this tradition of using things of other cultures to help other people join Catholicism.

Response: Unfortunately, it works both ways. Sometimes followers of the Catholic faith drift away from their faith and Jesus Christ, and towards beliefs/movements that give them more of "mystical" experience or to put it bluntly "God On-Command". I have seen this happen to some friends and family.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.

"What happened to syncretism?"

It's gone?

Cool.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 21, 2004.

"...that is why it is integral to learn from a strongly educated person so that you are trained in what constitutes danger and how to protect ones self from it."

I don't know, paul. Basically, you're admitting that it actually does put one close to an arena of influence that contains an element of danger to it.

But what's the payoff? If there's risk, what's the reward is what I want to know. In other words, let's say you want to sell me on the benefits of doing this safe meditation.

What's in it for me? What do I get?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 21, 2004.

Bill,

Thanks for the kind answer to me, when I was asking something that I probably shouldn't have if "truth be known".[As the old saying goes]

God bless you, Bill.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 21, 2004.

Why are we so afraid of what comes from the east? So yoga has some pagan undertones. So what? One can find pagan undertones in Catholicism. This being platonism and stoicism.

I think that as long as people don't use yoga as prayer there should be no problem. If they use yoga to calm oneself before prayer I don't see the problem. Better to have the mind wonder before prayer than during.

What I think more people need though is contemplation.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

Why are we so afraid of what comes from the east? Because Hindu and Buddhist beliefs do not include Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. Often Christian practitioners of Eastern meditative techniques begin to adopt, confuse and even substitute Eastern beliefs with their Christian beliefs. Christians should move closer to and not drift away from Jesus Christ.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 22, 2004.

emerald,

I don't know, paul. Basically, you're admitting that it actually does put one close to an arena of influence that contains an element of danger to it.

emerald, no offense, youre a big boy. you should know by now that 95% of what you do out there can open you up to temptation and/or danger. yes, meditation allows you a stronger connection to your mind, and allows you to face temptations things which you cant see without a connection to the subconcious mind. HOWEVER regardless of meditating or not, those things are there either way... if you know what you are doing, there is no more danger in meditation than in walking down the street.

But what's the payoff? If there's risk, what's the reward is what I want to know. In other words, let's say you want to sell me on the benefits of doing this safe meditation.

first, the risk is minimal. only a fool would allow outside influences into their meditation. second, i throw back at you, what is the payoff in prayer? what is the payoff in deep thought, especially that related to our faith? what is the payoff in relaxing your muscles and practicing proper breathing for a half hour? what is the benefit of directing your thinking instead of letting random things just wander about all the time, interupting your christian contemplation? what is the benefit of understanding a bit more of your subconcious mind, and how things are ordered (afterall, the place of meditation-- mistaken by hollywood to be an out of body experience-- is actually just a picture in your mind which reflects the state of your subconcious mind)?

What's in it for me? What do I get?

i hope that if you honestly answer the questions above you might begin to understand what you get.

gabo,

Often Christian practitioners of Eastern meditative techniques begin to adopt, confuse and even substitute Eastern beliefs with their Christian beliefs.

i dont know where you got this line of horse puckey, but it is horribly untrue. you might as well say that because pagans pray, that praying can lead us into pagan beliefs, or that because atheists read, reading will cause you to become atheist. meditation is a tool, it encompasses no religious belief. it is a psychological connection to the subconcious mind which allows directed thought on a subject of the persons choosing. i've meditated for YEARS, as have many members of my family, and not one of us has come near to falling away from the church, as you claim "many" do. what you are confusing is new age meditation... a fabrication based on hollywood stories, which has nothing to do with eastern meditation and has everything to do with a set of religious beliefs that are to be practiced while meditating.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), January 23, 2004.

paul:

I invite you to read this, and to share your thoughts.

It's not from some "schismatic" website, either. I got it from EWTN, which is pretty much equivelant to an ex cathedra pronouncement to you people, isn't it?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 23, 2004.

"An essential part of the New Age Religion is the use of certain psycho technologies. They include the following practices: meditation, yoga, Zen, hypnosis, transpersonal psychology,[23] and positive thinking."

POSITIVE THINKING??? Oh nooooooo!

One of the most positive thoughts I know is "with God all things are possible"--does that make one a new-ager?

Jake, that was an informative essay, but I doubt that most new-agers (sounds like a new term for senior citizens, lol) subscribe to all of those beliefs, or even know about them.

Also, I find it interesting that people mention EWTN right and left here on this forum as if everyone actually receives it on their TV (it is NOT a normal free broadcast channel--you have to have either cable or satellite to get it). So, how many people actually get this channel? Also, how many people actually watch it? I've occasionally tuned in to check things out and have not been that impressed (although I have not watched everything). For a source to carry some weight, it needs to be widely accessible (and yes they have a website, but not everything is on it, and again, how many know it's there?), and it isn't.

The new-age movement has some positive aspects to it--although oddly enough I don't see anything about using the power of positive thought to get peoples' derrieres off welfare....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 23, 2004.

I've occasionally tuned in(to EWTN) to check things out and have not been that impressed

Really? With what?

The new-age movement has some positive aspects to it

It may have some positive sounding aspects to it, but its roots are in paganism / satanism. It's a glossy, slick package, and it looks good on the outside, but that's how the Enemy operates.

Eve didn't eat the apple because it looked rotten, y'know?

-- jake (j@k.e), January 23, 2004.

The new-age movement has some positive aspects to it

So does communism, tyranny and facism. That doesn't make them movements to follow.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

Jake, I have watched various shows, and just in general they are not very interesting. I don't mean in terms of having slick production/entertainment values, but in terms of the subject matter being appealing enough or controversial enough to make people want to tune in and listen. Some of the speakers--I don't know how they made it to TV anywhere--I've heard better at Mass.

No, Eve ate the apple because Satan promised her it would give them knowlege. It did, and to the detriment of all, although it didn't seem to really be a sin until Adam had some too.

Just because some people believe in the truly bad aspects of something doesn't mean everything in the package is bad. Caring for the environment (which God gave us), should not be seen as a pagan issue, for example.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 23, 2004.

The new-age movement has some positive aspects to it

So does communism, tyranny and facism. That doesn't make them movements to follow.

Bill, I am NOT saying people should follow those movements, or new-age stuff either--and I don't know what good aspects you see in communism, tyranny and facism.

I am saying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You going to tell Catholics not to participate in gymnastics because it's similar to Yoga? Or that we should just continue to trash the environment because good Catholics shouldn't care?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 23, 2004.

You going to tell Catholics not to participate in gymnastics because it's similar to Yoga?

Yoga is a pagan religion, or at least founded and based in paganism. That's an important distinction. Gymnastics is a sporting activity. It does, IMO, involve a kind of forced immodesty on girls, but it's not a religion, per se. Some people do elevate sports to the level of a religion - missing Mass because of the big game, and so on.

Or that we should just continue to trash the environment because good Catholics shouldn't care?

Good Catholics should care, but not get carried away. To "protect the environment" by forcing loggers out of their livelihood to save a bird is at least as evil an act as illegally dumping toxic waste into the ocean. Animals, trees, etc. are ours to make use of and have dominion over, but not to abuse.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 23, 2004.

Bill, I am NOT saying people should follow those movements, or new-age stuff either

good --and I don't know what good aspects you see in communism, tyranny and facism.

Communism: no 'big fat capitalists', 'socialized medicine', 'minimum wage'

Tyranny: 'Saddam kept the lights on in Bagdad we are told', 'protection from enemies', etc.

Facism: 'the trains ran on time', 'volkswagan bug and other inventions'...

I am saying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You going to tell Catholics not to participate in gymnastics because it's similar to Yoga? Or that we should just continue to trash the environment because good Catholics shouldn't care?

Yoga includes a type of eastern meditation that if done properly distracts from Christian contemplation. It isn't the same as gymnastics or some other sport that does not include an adherence to another religion.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

resend...

Bill, I am NOT saying people should follow those movements, or new- age stuff either good --and I don't know what good aspects you see in communism, tyranny and facism.

some 'goods' in each:

Communism: no 'big fat capitalists', 'socialized medicine', 'minimum wage', 'guaranteed employment'

Tyranny: 'Saddam kept the lights on in Bagdad we are told', 'protection from enemies', etc.

Facism: 'the trains ran on time', 'volkswagan bug and other inventions'...

I am saying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You going to tell Catholics not to participate in gymnastics because it's similar to Yoga? Or that we should just continue to trash the environment because good Catholics shouldn't care?

Yoga includes a type of eastern meditation and other religious elements that if done properly distracts from Christianity and Christian contemplation. It isn't the same as gymnastics or some other sport that does not include an adherence to another religion.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

Yoga itself is exercise, plain and simple--you can do it without any of the other stuff. Many people do. If you want an example of how mainstrean and non-religious Yoga has become, rent or buy any Yoga tapes by Denise Austin.

Yoga exercises by themselves do not contradict Catholicism. Perhaps some of the more involved meditation practices do, but most people will never get that far in a Yoga program.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 23, 2004.

Gabo's Original Statement: "Often Christian practitioners of Eastern meditative techniques begin to adopt, confuse and even substitute Eastern beliefs with their Christian beliefs."

Response: "i dont know where you got this line of horse puckey, but it is horribly untrue."

Gabo's explanation: Key figures in the New Age movement declared decades ago that one of their key goals was to infiltrate the Catholic Church. One technique they use is to present meditative techniques full of familiar-sounding Christian terms. These terms and concepts though "familiar" actually are given new definitions and meaning. It is a way to get Christians to open up to the new meditative techniques and slowly and subtely introduce these new meanings about God, faith and life. If you do any research (even Google) on this matter you will find that this New Age strategy has made great strides in parishes, Catholic schools, prayer groups, and just about anywhere else that Christians/Catholics congregate. In fact the person who made this announcement, decades ago, was New Age Diva, Alice Bailey, founder of Lucifer (Lucis Trust). Sad but true.

New Agers and others have also taken a great many Eastern meditative techniques and introduced them to Christians telling them for example, "its all the same God". To some, God is "energy" (not the Creator), and Jesus Christ simply a master like Buddha (not the "only begotten Son of God."). Eastern religions are very attractive and mystical to many in our society, sort of like an opium. And INDEED some do incorporate more of other religions rather than incorporate more of their Christian religions into their life and belief system. Again, sad but true.

-- Gabo Gaviria (jkcap@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

I don't know what's wrong with good ol' fashion kneeling and standing with arms outstretched to the heavens, or prostrating as contemplative postures ... must we pray with just one leg standing... or with our head and bodies upside down? Kneeling is hard enough!

-- Daniel (danielg7@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.

Daniel, I quite agree. Most people taking Yoga classes for exercise are concentrating on getting into the positions--they save their praying for some other time.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), January 24, 2004.

GT, so what does a catholic have to do with gnarled, crooked, eastern positions when we have enough difficult postures as it is?

For 2 milleniums, catholics have not been involved with the eastern practices which co-existed, why should we begin now?

I don't think any of our church fathers or any of our thousands of Saints practiced yoga even as a form of exercise. I couldn't imagine Pope John Paul II nor Mother Angelica exercising as such.

Don't you think "harmless" yoga subconsciously conditions the unguarded Catholic to further experimentations into eastern practices?

-- Daniel (danielg7@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

I mean, if yoga feels good, maybe there is something good about Hinduism or Buddhism that I need to find out.

Don't you think yoga is the bait?

-- Daniel (danielg7@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

I think we have pretty much kicked this horse to death. The exercise part of Yoga is OK. When they start talking about meditation, go see your Catholic spiritual director and get advice on what to do during that period of the 'exercise'. If that is too difficult for you, avoid the Yoga class altogether and pick up a different form of exercise.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.

"i hope that if you honestly answer the questions above you might begin to understand what you get."

Pretty much the same thing every time.

I have to side with Bill, in essence. There's similarities out there in things for a reason: because one thing is real, and the other is counterfeit, and it's a difficult task to tell them apart sometimes. We are no match for our opponents in the spiritual realm and they will have us for lunch unless what we involve ourselves in relies upon not our human efforts but upon the supernatural graces which are offered which we accept. We don't find those things under our own powers or by our own impulses, but they are divinely revealed to us.

It's not enough to walk up to a phenomena and say "hey, let's skim the good in it off the top and leave the rest for the devil". Believe me, I know what you are trying to say. But it's trickier than that. You run the risk of being assimilated by your opponents in the spiritual realm.

Again, paul: you can't rely on your own abilities to ward off, or put away from you, bad influences; it's beyond our human ability.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 24, 2004.

But to go along with the sports thing, Jake, could a Catholic participate in the Olympics? Because the Olympics were started as a pagan worship of their gods. But as we all know there are good Catholics that participate in the games. And why shouldn't they? No one thinks of the games as pagan anymore. Yoga is starting to become like that too.

Syncratism is a good thing. And for all those who think that bringing in things from other religions to help convert, you should not try to convert people. Go on with your ultra-conservatism, but please do not try to convert people from other religions and other ethnic groups. It is exactly the ability of the Church to bring in other cultural norms that makes it great. This is why we are the catholic church.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), January 25, 2004.

So in other words, Scott, let's not assimilate. Let's get assimilated instead. The piper's calling you to join him.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), January 25, 2004.

bumping for eve

-- bump (bump@bump.bump), February 02, 2004.

I just happened onto your conversation and found it very interesting. I did notice that there was little discussion about the history and meaning of the actual yoga (tantric) positions. Yoga is about mastering positions that enhance and charge the tantric system. Tantric worship is intrinsic in the study of yoga and the practice and mastery of the positions. This is not pagan (in the Roman Empire sense) this is religious practice. The yoga positions are ancient and are used (along with meditation)to worship other Gods. The sun God, for instance, "demands" of its supplicants to form their bodies into these positions and hold them there as prayer and sacrifice. The reward? Transcendental experience. This is totally out of the precepts of Christianity and Catholicism. There are many types of yoga...but we should be wary of the history and meaning of the physical positions and their intent. I do realize that many of our rituals at Mass are "baptized" pre- christian things...but these physicals positions have real meaning in and of themselves that are quite opposed to Christianity.

Sincerely, g ivy

-- Gina Ivy (reader1235@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

This is not pagan (in the Roman Empire sense)

No, it is pagan in the Hindu sense. It does not lead to God in the Christian sense.

I do realize that many of our rituals at Mass are "baptized" pre- christian things

No, mass is distictly Christian in nature, it really doesn't have any pre-Christian things in it. The liturgy of the Eucharist is not like any other religion. Even the liturgy of the Word is distictly Christian.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

Jmj

Hi, Bill. You wrote:
"No, mass is distictly Christian in nature, it really doesn't have any pre-Christian things in it."

I would have agreed with you if you had said, "... it really doesn't have any pre-Christian, pagan things in it." The truth is that it has some Jewish (pre-Christian) elements in it. That is one of the things that has helped some orthodox Jews comfortably to join in worship with us upon their conversion (i.e., becoming "completed Jews"). I have heard this stated by more than one convert from Judaism -- including, I think, Rosalind Moss, of Catholic Answers, Inc..

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

Here's a good read along those lines. Don't get hung up on the source, just read the interview. It's very interesting.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 04, 2004.

As a convert to Catholicism from Judaism, Roy Schoeman points out the following in the above-linked interview:

"Another motivation was, frankly, the way I saw the relationship between Judaism and the Catholic Faith being high jacked by Catholics who were really following another agenda — an agenda to deny central dogmas of the Catholic Faith under the guise of ecumenical relations and better relations with the Jews. As a Jew who became Catholic, I became personally indignant at the fact that the beauty and the richness of the relationship between Judaism and Catholicism was being intentionally distorted for such an agenda, an agenda which was very much at the disservice of the Glory of God."

And this also:

" When I see that (and I certainly have seen that), that is an affront. It is a terrible thing when someone who presents himself as speaking for the Catholic Church and presenting the Catholic Faith, says something which contradicts Dogma. Often, when I've seen that done, the person doing it is actually using the Jewish-Catholic dialogue to push an agenda which he or she was intending to push in any case, which tends to be a modernist, syncretist kind of revision of Catholicism."

In other words, there is the question of whether we are doing the assimilating, or are being the one's assimilated.

It's a fair question, and the answer makes complete sense.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 04, 2004.

Better suggestion to Catholics: Don't read the whole interview at the linked site. Read just the answer to the first question, please. Only the first answer is relevant to what we are discussing.
[Orthodox Catholics don't need to be burdened with later stuff in the interview -- stuff that is critical of the current rite of the Mass -- i.e., that of the Missal of 1970. The "publication" that owns the linked page is not "friendly" toward Vatican II, but is friendly (or at least sympathetic), I believe, toward the schismatic Society of St. Pius X.]

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

I began to write my previous post (recommending reading only the first answer in the linked interview article) before the above message -- with its irrelevant and inflammatory quotations from Roy Schoeman -- had been posted.
Too bad I was a minute too late.
I hope that the Moderator removes the post above -- the one that contains the irrelevant quotations from Schoeman.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

"Orthodox Catholics don't need to be burdened with later stuff in the interview -- stuff that is critical of the current rite of the Mass -- i.e., that of the Missal of 1970."

He wasn't even critical of it all at; in fact he said this:

"...my sensibilities are very much more in line with pre-Vatican II sensibilities, but I'm leaving aside the issues of how my preference and what resonates with me, may or may not be of universal value."

He's talking about things in the same vein as the various topics this thread has dealt with. He wrote a book and they are just interviewing him, that's all. People should read it because it builds a healthy understanding of how Judaism and Israel forshadowed the Catholic Church in belief and practice.

There's not a hint of anything contradictory to the Faith in the article and it has no connection with schism whatsoever; it's a great article.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 04, 2004.

Again from the article:

SC: "What steps do you think need to be taken to revitalize the Church's missionary effort toward the Jews?"

RS: "I think it's all there i[n] Doctrine. It's all there in Dogma. The steps that need to be taken are the same steps that need to be taken all across the board, which is fidelity to true Church teaching."

Who can argue with that?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 04, 2004.

In my first message on the 4th, I quoted a stated by Bill with which I partially disagreed (about how the Mass supposedly contains nothing pre-Christian). I pointed out that it has Jewish elements, as testified to by some converts, such as Rosalind Moss.

I would have welcomed a quotation from any other convert ("completed Jew") supporting this position. Such a quotation could have, and should have, been copied from the article in question.

The article itself should not have been linked, however, because the source is not sanctioned by the Church, yet illicitly carries the name "Catholic" in its title. The publication lacks respect for Vatican II and is sympathetic to a schismatic organization.
Moreover, there should not have been irrelevant passages quoted above from the article/interview -- passages that had nothing to do with what Bill said and how I replied to him.
Finally, the publication should not have been defended with additional irrelevant -- and selective -- quotations from the interview, in an attempt to make it seem harmless.

In urging orthodox Catholics not to read the interview (except for the first question and answer), my desire was especially to save them from wasting their time reading a question about how the interviewee "view[s] the liturgical reforms which followed Vatican II and have resulted in the Novus Ordo Mass." The interviewer was obviously fishing for some bashing of the true Church and one of its forms of worship. Such a publication does not deserve to be read. There are plenty of good, Council-respecting, Catholic publications and sites for people to consult, wherein can be found statements and articles that orthodox Catholics can read with pleasure. It is these that should be quoted and linked at this forum -- not Council-disrespecting, less-than-orthodox-Catholic publications and sites.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

From the linked interview, here is the quotation from Jewish/Catholic Roy Schoeman that would have been relevant and helpful:

"Although Catholics are aware of this in principle, they often don't think of the Catholic Church as the continuation of Judaism after the Messiah. I found it an extremely interesting topic, and was surprised at how excited many Catholics became at thinking of it that way. It's everywhere you look. It's obviously in the Sacrifice of the Mass and the way the Mass is prefigured in Jewish ceremonial worship. It's in the role that the Old Testament, Jewish Scripture have in Catholic theology and the structure of the Catholic Faith. It was a very prevalent theme among the Church Fathers and in the Church in earlier days — the very deep typological significance that the Old Testament and Judaism have as a typological foreshadowing of the fullness of God's sacramental relationship with man which came into being with the coming of Christ."

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

John,
With all due respect for the Jewish author, the liturgical copying is not obvious to me and I would like to see a better liturgical analysys supporting your view. I would accept that. That both read the Word, is obvious.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

I agree with you, Bill. A detailed analysis would be helpful, potentially convincing. I feel sure that one exists somewhere. If/when I find it, I'll let you know.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

Bill, I haven't recalled anything in print or on the Internet that you can read (about the "jewishness" of parts of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass), but I did remember that one of the most knowledgable sources on this and related matters is a Jewish convert named Bob Fishman. He has taped some excellent shows for EWTN. They are repeated from time to time. I suggest that you scroll down to "Jewish Roots of Catholicism" on this page, to get an idea of what I am talking about.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 06, 2004.