Laurent said: Okay , honestly , the only thing I don't like is religion & church , etc .... , to me it's something to keep people under pressure !! __ However , I accept the Civil Laws , you even have too , but it doesn't mean you have to agree with all of them ==> democracy !!!! (taken from this thread).

Laurent, this is an honest question and not meant as an attack on you in any way. I am sincerely wondering what it is that draws you to come to a Catholic discussion board if you do not like religion and church? I read that you claim to be an atheist and you post clearly that you are a non-believer. I want to thank you for being honest with us about where you are at. I am not a Catholic, but as a Protestant I am interested in studying the Catholic faith, hence my involvement on this board. However, I cannot figure out what would draw a non-believer to come here regularly.

I truly appreciate hearing your perspective on things. As a non-believer, you contribute your opinions respectfully, giving us another perspective that is important to consider. I think that you are a blessing here and hope that you will stay and continue to give us insights from your perspectives.

Respectfully,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 27, 2004

Answers

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-- The Bumper! (bump@bumpitybump.bump), January 28, 2004.

Emily thx ,

mmmm , Your question , an attack on me ??

You just ask me very normal question !! __ Absolutely , no problem !!

So why I visite this place ??

Well , I was a catholic , but I left ,'cause I disagree with a lot of things !! __ And why I come here ??

1> For 99% , I agree with my parents , except , it was not my choice to be baptized , but ok , your parents (normally) tries to give the best to their kids !! __ About the mass , when we were sick , we didn't have to go , but once cured , each mass we missed , each weak we had to go twice , until we came on the weekly level !! __ It was even not allowed for me to have friends who never went to mass (??) or didn't believe , even I had to try to bring them to mass ?? __ After my last gran-mother died , I didn't go to mass anymore , my parents said:"from now on , you may go on your own" , so .... !!!! __ But a few years later , I caught my dad , he was following me , if really went to mass !! __ Also this , I play in metal-band , 13 years back , I discovered , my dad even had burned letters coming from metal & punk bands & fans , 'cause they were anti-religious !! __ The first thing I did , was , I took a P.O. Box as my (band)address !! __ I even discovered a whole lot of empty bottles of beer , out for revenge , I put them in the living-room , my parents where there , so you can guess what my dad's reactions was !! __ But I didn't gave a damn about it !!

Also , when I finished high-school , I even have burned the O.T. & N.T. and all other religious books & writings I had from school !!!!

2> I don't believe in air-castles ; well , for it's something that simply doesn't exists , all believers said there is something , but never they really can show proof about it , than they say , it's all around us ?? __ So , what's all around us & how it looks like , os ot written ??

I do believe in the Big Bang story , but what was there before , and how it started ?? __ Until now , NOBODY knows it !!

3> (Most of the) religions discriminate women & gay people , that's the opposite of what they say , weird: accept people as they are , but they may not act or why can't there be a female pope ?? (PS: I'm hetero) __ But than they come up with the story of their master , that it not allows it !! __ So , than why gay-people do excist ?? __ Or why even women does excist ?? __ So , what give you the right to forbid things , or even try to "eliminate" them (as long there is no crime involved) ?? __ Who made those religious laws ?? ==> MANkind !!

The history of catholicism is also not that nice:

=> Inquisition

or WO II ==> there were some (high) rotten apples in the basket , just as in other organisations !! __ But OK , that doesn't mean , the whole organistion were bad guys !!

Also christianity , pagans were before them !!

4> When I give a reply in a thread (like , when it says , catholics only) , so they don't agree with that , sorry , I just give my opinion , 'cause if it only comes from 1 side , it just gives a wrong idea about the facts !!

5> I accept people who believe , no problem , but for some of them , they rather get rid of me , instead to defend themself , so they can go on and tell only their point of view !!

6> Sometimes , they only quote from bibles , why not give your opinion , with bible-quote ??

7> Anyway , that was my confession !!

Salut & Cheers from a NOB NELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Improvement:

Salut & Cheers from a NON NELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Improvement again:

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Actually the Pagans treated women WORSE than the Christains did...if you read Histroy...

Many to-day think the Pagans treated women as equels, and that the Christains made them second class citisens ( these Days Paul gets most of the flack for that...)

But in reality, the Bibles treatment of women is an IMPROVEMENT over what they had suffered under, but it was still written in a highly descriminatory time, and consessions had to be made.

I agree with equel rights for women, and personally see this as ART of my faith.

As to religion, it can serve as a means ot teach, which is what it is for...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 28, 2004.

Laurent, Seems to me your beef should be with your parents and not the Church?

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 28, 2004.

Thanks Laurent, for explaining to us about your background. However, in reading what you wrote, I think you may have forgotten to answer my question. Either that or I missed it in your answer. What is it that draws you participate in a Catholic forum? Are you trying to better understand the faith that your parents claimed to follow?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Well Emily , simple & maybe weird , I like discussions about subjects & things I really don't like !!

Bill , maybe my parents view is 1 reason ?? __ My mom is still alive , and each when the pope is on TV (and I'm home) , we never may some about that guy , so , what do you expect ?? __ But most of the time (99%) , simple , I left !! __ Besides , I really don't like the pope , also he's so old-fashioned & extremely-conservative !! __ But even when a new wind is coming , not even a molecule in me is thinking about to come back , not even for a woman (!!!! I'm bloody serious about that !!!!) !!!!

In the past , each when that guy came on TV , like urbi et orbi or whatever , we had to (MUST) watch it (LIVE or on the news) __ When I was 10 years old , from then on , each time , I went to the toilet , my dad was not happy about that , especially when that guy was givings his blessings , I said each , I'm not ready !! __ Later on (age 15 years) , I left each time , going for a ride on my bike , like I said , I really don't like the pope !!

PS: My dad & mom are no monsters , hell no , but it's just only I disagree (again) on religion , etc .... !!!!

But ok , to me , religion is nothing more than a big made up lie by MANkind , to keep people under pressure !!!!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Laurent,

So you are a masochistic atheist I guess. Are you a Free Mason with ideas of universal brotherhood and Utopia?

One thing to think about is that if tomorrow everyone in the world, (or one country or one state even) were to become catholic and more importantly follow the doctrines of the Church to the letter we would have Utopia in that area.

AIDS, Herpes, syphyllis, gonorrhea, Chlamydia, Trichimonas, and countless other veneral diseases would disappear. Divorce would be rare. Abortion would not exist. War would disappear. People would help one another without the IRS forcing them to. Think about it. Sounds like a world view and understanding that is so wise it must be from a divine being.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), January 28, 2004.

Hi David.

Your words ring true. Is this what Jesus meant by telling His Apostles the the Kingdom of God is already here amongst them?

At least, that's the way I understand it.

....................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Laurent, Remember that a job of a pope is to keep the Gospel of Jesus Christ intact. I would hope he would be conservative. He not only has to think about sheparding the flock of today, but the flock of tomorrow. His job is not to try out new theories and see what happens.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 28, 2004.

Laurent'

[Yeah] you"re the Rebel type/ *you Hate auThorities::: you disobey your parents.....you dislike the POPE, {the Supreme ^^^Authority+ of the Church} u__have 3 Choices: [1] the Authority of GOD [2] the Authority of $atan [3] the Authority of Your$elf\\\\\\\ [1] leads to Heaven; [2] and [3] lead to Hell. Use common sense, mate.=== it>s HoT-in-HeLL!!# All you need is Love; Love is wh@t you need; Love is in the +Catholic +Church; /Believe it or not.\.

-- (greg9scott@aol.com), January 28, 2004.

So you are a masochistic atheist I guess. Are you a Free Mason with ideas of universal brotherhood and Utopia?

Why masochistic ??

Euh .... it would be nice , if there was no violence anymore !!

One thing to think about is that if tomorrow everyone in the world, (or one country or one state even) were to become catholic and more importantly follow the doctrines of the Church to the letter we would have Utopia in that area.

Honestly , even than I would not be a catholic anymore !!

AIDS, Herpes, syphyllis, gonorrhea, Chlamydia, Trichimonas, and countless other veneral diseases would disappear. Divorce would be rare. Abortion would not exist. War would disappear. People would help one another without the IRS forcing them to. Think about it. Sounds like a world view and understanding that is so wise it must be from a divine being.

That's even an dreaming utopic Utopia-theory !!

But you know , diseases like aids are not only "available" via sex !!

So , your theory is brought back to zero !!

People have feelings , so adultery , sorry to say , will never stop !! __ What you do if you still caught your wife with someone else ??

To my opinion: So , also war will not dissapear !!

So , your theory is brought back to zero !!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill ,

Well , let me be fair about the pope , that guy has no reality (anymore) about the real world !!

His job is not to try out new theories and see what happens ....

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

greg9scott@aol.com ,

I'm maybe a rebel with a cause !!

you Hate auThorities::: you disobey your parents

Where did I wrote I hate authority ??

Where did I wrote I disobey my parents ??

Are YOU agree with your parents on all points ??

So , if your dad ask you to kill your neighbour , you're saying here , you may not disobey your parents , so ....

.... Use common sense , mate

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Hi Laurent.

You know? I kind of envy your lack of faith in God. You come across as someone who has very little turmoil in life. I've noticed that ever since I returned to my faith in God (my trust in Him), my life has suffered unusual events of hardships, evil temptations, and down right unexplained chaos. I'm trying to do my duty to church and helping by way of my music ministries. My struggles seem futile at times. I keep telling myself that I'm doing things for God. But, you seem to exist in a care free haven. I wish I knew why our experiences aren't reversed. You must be doing something that is pleasing to the sources that provide such comfort. I keep praying, but things just seem to get complicated to more time goes on. Perhaps I'm doing the right things and only upsetting that adversary a little too much.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

You come across as someone who has very little turmoil in life.

Maybe ,

When I don't like something I just say it , most of the times very politeful , and only when necessary , the hard way (by words) !!

But I'm not struggling with myself , I'm really happy with my life , except for my handicap , but as I said , I take life as it comes !!

PS: For now , good night , it's 1.22AM GMT

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 28, 2004.

Night, Laurent. May God shine some light on you and me for our paths would truly become easier to travel in the light.

.................................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Laurent,

I say masochist because you mentioned that you are here because religion is something you don't like. Person enjoying pain=masochist.

AIDS and Hepatitis can indeed be transmitted by means other than sex but some of those means would not be possible in a devout Catholic either (drug use). The other STDs would disappear in one generation of 100% devout Catholics while these 2 diseases would only exist from rare needle sticks or blood transfusions. The key is that doing what is right would dramatically change the world.

Will it ever happen? Not is this world but it still does not weaken the thought of the power of Catholic teachings.

Rod, Dont believe that Laurent is living the good life for one second. I havent perceived anything optimistic about his life but I do wish him all the best. I am sorry that you are having problems. I feel faith can be a double edged sword. Doing the right thing protects us from lots of suffering in this world (adultery leading to divorce, theft to prison etc) but it also can cause some suffering (especially in an inter faith marriage or when you deal with others without the same faith).

Bad things happen to good people and sometimes we pray to God and the answer is no. Having faith however means that when something bad happens it can sometimes be seen as having a purpose. To an atheist, suffering is simply suffering. To a Catholic, suffering can be a bump in the road to salvation or sometimes might even be God's way of intervening and steering you in His direction (which is quite an honor IMO). Bad things will happen to you in life no matter what your faith BUT to me the Catholic view is much more palatable.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), January 28, 2004.

Hi David.

I agree with you.

Laurent may feel secure as his perception may mislead him. But, I hope he understood my last sentence:

Perhaps I'm doing the right things and only upsetting that adversary a little too much. This could be why his comfort hasn't been rattled; he is not a threat nor is he among the "mustard seeds".

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Rod,

Suffering is very Catholic. (Protestants tend to put suffering on the back burner; they focus on joy, power, and abundance.)

"Suffering is but the Kiss of Christ."

"His life was one of suffering."

Catholics are encouraged by the Church to meditate on the Way of the Cross, the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary, and the Seven Sorrows of Mary. Monks and nuns inflict suffering on themselves to mortify their bodies. Catholics unite their sufferings with the sufferings of Christ and Mary.

Good Courage, my friend.

-- J.John (J.John@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Rod,

That's also why Catholics consider the crucifix as superior to the cross.

-- J.John (J.John@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

Hi, Rod

Lug has been"beating the same drums" for close to three years at this forum. I think sometimes he justs post to hear himself talk because his band must not be doing to well.

I know you started a thread months ago asking about wether you should have your young children Baptized. I think this is the most important thing that you should do as a Catholic at this point.

You said to Laurent, " I'm trying to do my duty to Church and helping by way of music."

I'm sure you are a good man Rod, and help with the music, and I would imagine that you are pretty good at it. But, this is NOT good enough to help. Every parent has a grave duty to have their babies baptized right away, and if we don't do this than we could be putting our childrens souls in very grave danger. No Catholic should dare take this chance. I was taught that one shouldn't take their babies outside the door until they are on their way to be Baptized.

If you already did this than, I'm sorry for sticking my nose in your bussiness, but if you didn't than DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE DAMN MUSIC, AND GET YOUR BABIES BAPTIZED FOR GODS SAKE!

To David, you said, " .Perhaps I'm doing the right things and only upsetting that adversary a little bit to much."

DITTO! If you have any kind of faith in the Catholic Church you will take care of this before you play music. FIRST THINGS FIRST!

May God bless your children.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 28, 2004.

I hear you all.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 28, 2004.

To David, you said, " .Perhaps I'm doing the right things and only upsetting that adversary a little bit to much."

DITTO! If you have any kind of faith in the Catholic Church you will take care of this before you play music. FIRST THINGS FIRST!

Kids , wife , world come always in the first place , but baptizing someone is what you think that has to come first , if a kid is born , but something is wrong , the first that comes is not: "Oh , I must let baptize my kid , otherwise it goes to hell" , MEDICAL HELP IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING , THE KID'S HEALTH IS IMPORTANT !! __ Just as I did to my dad , nut it already too late , that is what YOU really don't understand , you never came through that position !! __ I can asure you , it's not nice to see your dad dropping dead in front of your eyes , that's REAL HORRIFYING !!

Oh yeah , I'm talking to myself and also tries here , to make publicity for my band , well , at the moment the band is indeed a bit in silence , but it's not what you think it is , one of our members is studying at the university , and has not much time at moment , so , we'll wait until he has finish his studies (this year) , those studies are absolutely more important , no doubt about that !!

----------------------------------------------------------

What I also noticed (in general) , everything you don't like , just get rid of it , like: MARILYN MANSON Poor French The vulgar 'play', Corpus Christi and even me !!

Somethings , I even have doubts about , who are the most stupid- ones , in that case ??

David S ,

Oh yeah , of course I'm talking to myself , plz , gi'me a gun , so I can shoot myself , gi'me a rope , so I can hang myself , or gi'me a cross , so I can cruxify myself !! __ Well , guys like you David S , what would you do if you lost your faith or if there wasn't any religion ?? __ Besides , what would you do if there was any catholicism ??

This could be why his comfort hasn't been rattled; he is not a threat nor is he among the "mustard seeds".

Well , David S , I should say , that counts for you too !!

Lug has been"beating the same drums" for close to three years at this forum.

For how you long you're playing the same notes on guitar at this forum ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 29, 2004.

Ill be keeping you in my prayers Rod . GOd BLess and take care

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), January 29, 2004.

J.John said: Monks and nuns inflict suffering on themselves to mortify their bodies.

I'm wondering if this is a true practice sanctioned by the Catholic Church? It seems this would be both unhealthy and dishonoring to God who created these people.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), January 29, 2004.

Hi Emily,

The practice of mortification of the flesh is definitely sanctioned by the Catholic Church and has produced many, many Saints.

Severe forms of mortification are only for the monks and nuns; not for the average Catholic. The monks and nuns practice mortifications that would only affect the body superficially (not affect the deep tissues) ... wearing of haircloth or sackcloth, flagellating the back, kneeling on bare ground, walking barefooted, etc.

Here are some quotes from The Desert Fathers (monks of 150 B.C. - 400 A.D.) translated by Helen Waddell:

"when the body hath grown lean,
then does the soul wax fat."

"If a monk will hate two things, he can be free from this world:
1. relaxation of the body
2. vainglory"

"Since the time I became a monk I have never given myself my fill of bread, nor of water, nor of sleep, and tormenting myself with appetite for these things whereby we are fed, I was not suffered to feel the stings of lust."

"A dry and even diet joined together with loving-kindness shall speedily bring the monk into the harbour of invulnerability."

"there is no labour so great as praying to God: for when a man wishes to pray to his God, the hostile demons make haste to interrupt his prayer, knowing that their sole hindrance is in this, a prayer poured out to God."

Saint Faustina Kowalska (1905-1938) said:

"It is precisely when I suffer much that my joy is greater; and when I suffer less, my joy also is less."

Emily, the average Catholic can mortify his body by fasting, giving up a specific comfort, sleeping 1 hour less, eating no meat on Fridays, giving the money for a movie to the poor instead, etc.

God bless you, too.

-- J.John (J.John@yahoo.com), January 29, 2004.

LUG,

You lost me! Would you post a picture of your-self in this forum so I can take a peek? I want to see what you look like.

-- - (David@excite.com), January 29, 2004.

I thought he already had posted his picture?

Here it is again:

.............just kidding around, Laurent.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 29, 2004.

At request from David , my LUG-face: (Click to enlarge)

btw Rod: mmmm , that's how I look like , when I'm sleeping

David , I'm not against you or I don't have anything against you , I was just asking you a question (maybe a little bit a cruelone , sorry for that) !! I know the meaning of "beating the same drums":

Always talking about the same !!

I'm even grateful to you , you're reply (DITTO....) to Rod , made me understand the question a bit better !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 30, 2004.

Th is me IRL , when I'm woke up & wake up

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), January 30, 2004.

Laurent,

No need to apologize. You have always treated me like an "old rag" since you first came to forum. I'm use to by now. :-)

-- - (David@excite.com), January 30, 2004.