In a separation/divorce, if one custodial parent falls into habitual mortal sin, and the children are in their formative stage of development, what is the primary obligation? Do you explain to the children that it is a sin they are witnessing? Or do you keep quiet so as not to detract from the image the children have of the parent?

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 09, 2004

Answers

Anonymous,

I was wondering…

Who would be the person telling the children? The other parent or a stranger?

If you’re not the other parent, would it be your business to judge and make comments about the custodial parent?

What’s the relevancy of the parent being custodial? Would you point out all sins that both parent commits, custodial or not?

Would you point sins out only if there was a legal separation/divorce? Or, would you point them out even if the parents were still married and living together? For example, if one Catholic parent was not attending Sunday Mass but the parents were happily married and living together, would you point out THIS mortal sin?

What would the purpose of telling the children? Would it be to teach them right from wrong or to make the Custodial parent appear to be a bad person in the children’s eyes?

-- xoxoxox (w@w.com), February 09, 2004.

Gee, I wonder who "Anonymous" is in this case, given the recent annulment/marriage threads....

But, since you asked, here's my two cents:

If this is something along the lines of a different "boy/girl "friend"" every week (especially overnight guests of the opposite sex), or there is abuse, or something similar or worse, then, you should be busy seeking primary custody, not worrying about "image".

If the other party has "moved on" into a relationship/marriage that actually is better for all concerned except you, the poor aggrieved spouse, get over it. Quit involving your children in YOUR problems. Children are not stupid. They will figure out, on their own, who was right and who was wrong.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 09, 2004.

Gee, I wonder who "Anonymous" is in this case, given the recent annulment/marriage threads.

What do you mean -- "recent"? GT, does repeating the same basic complaints, an average of once a week for about a year, qualify as "recent"? Or does it indicate an unhealthy fixation, a neurosis of some kind?

-- (Concerned@About.MentalHealth), February 10, 2004.

I'm talking about "The Better Way" thread, and the "Vatican Proclamations on Marriage Cases", as far as "recent".

I definitely think it is unhealthy to keep living in the past.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 10, 2004.

I came here with an honest question and have seen nothing but sarcasm. Is there any Christian charity on this forum?

Sincere answers only please.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 10, 2004.

What was wrong with the very first answer? That was sincere enough, and contained several good points, which you did NOT address. My answer, is sincere. If you choose not to see it that way, well....

The first answer brought up missing Mass as an example. Yes, it is a mortal sin according to the Church. But does the parent live a good life otherwise?

If the children are going to catechism, they will learn what is sin and what is not.

The way you phrase the question seems geared more towards "getting back" at the spouse than any true concern for the children's welfare. I further get from your post that you are putting your children in the role of spying on the other parent, which is despicable.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 10, 2004.

GT,

You judge..and harshly, imputing very ugly facts to support a conclusion. The question is purely hypothetical. But it is a situation faced by many.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 10, 2004.

Give GT A BREAK. Don't ask for opinions if you can't handle what people have to say on a public forum!

-- - (Lugnut@.......), February 10, 2004.

Add the following facts. The habitual mortal sins are adultery and/or coveting thy neighbors wife ...and that the catechism taught to the children has been altered to exclude these comandments. The parents had originally agreed to raise the children as Catholic.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 10, 2004.

Excuse me, you are the one who specifically states "mortal sin". That doesn't leave a whole lot of choices as far as what you could be talking about.

If you don't like the situation your children are in, and can legally justify your position, go for custody NOW, quit wasting time asking questions on a forum. If not, then quit trying to drive a wedge between your children and the other parent--it could well backfire on you in the end. Is that what you want?

Say you do tell your children that ex has a new "friend", and that it is wrong, and why. Do you think it won't eventually get back to your ex? Helloooooo! Gee, what do you think will happen from there? Believe me, nothing good.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 10, 2004.

GT, Thank you for your input, but please answer the question, and based on the facts given.

Now then, the question is as follows, (1) should the children be instructed in the Catechism, the full truth, or (2) should they be kept ignorant of what God teaches with respect to the Commandments for the sake of seeming harmony?

Where is the balance supposed to be stuck? What is the best way to go about implementing the best plan?

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 10, 2004.

I guess we posted at the same time.

Was there a written agreement in the divorce decree that the children would continue to be raised Catholic? Or was this an agreement that you made when you were married and more or less took for granted that the same would continue after the divorce?

If the latter, the best you can do is teach the correct catechism when you have the children, and let THEM ask questions of the Priest or other instructor, even if you have to pay an honorarium for private catechism lessons. If it was in the decree, you may have cause for court action, which may or may not result in you gaining primary or full custody. This sort of thing really depends on the judge, who may or may not think religion is important, but if it was in the divorce decree, it might be seen more as a breach of contract issue.

I hope this is a little more helpful to you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 10, 2004.

Lets suppose there was nothing in the decree, and only a rather solemn oral agreement both separately and as part of the marriage vow.

I'm thinking the best thing to do would be to try to discuss the quandry with the biological mother. But in the instance of getting no feedback on this, I'm wondering what would be the next best thing to do as I would be a bit concerned if this part of the Catechism were excised and only the bad behaviour remained as an example.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 10, 2004.

I am also looking at it from the point of view of the children.

Yes, what the ex is doing is wrong (and ex may well go and seek an annulment, and if the marriage is nullified, what is THAT going to do to the children?), but you could point it out in a way that is more in the line of "love the sinner, hate the sin", if you know what I mean. Yes, ex is not doing the right thing by the spouse, but ex still loves the children and presumably is taking good care of them otherwise. Praying together with your children for your ex would also be something you could do.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 10, 2004.

My ex-mother-in-law tried this approach to alienate my daughter from me. She (the ex-mother-in-law) instructed my daughter to ask me on her (my daughter's) next visitation what the Sixth Commandment was. Unfortunately, my ex-mother-in-law was so fixated on vilifying me that she was blind to the damage that she was doing to her granddaughter. The end result was a letter from my lawyer stating that if her attempts at parental alienation did not stop, then we would go to court to get a restraining order to forbid her from ever talking to my daughter again.

I recommend that you read the book Divorce Poison: Protecting the Parent-Child Bond from a Vindictive Ex by Richard A. Warshak. You need to find out just how damaging this kind of behavior can be to your children. You had your opportunity to catechize your children with regard to the Sixth Commandment before your divorce. The sudden importance that you attach to this now is an indication of your true motivations.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), February 10, 2004.

The biological mother has agreed with me that our eldest is not learning his 10 commandments in CCD and has commended me to fill in the gap. She has stated not to worry about the sixth and ninth commandment with respect to her personally because no behaviour she presents our children at any forseeable time will be in conflict with these commandments.

I personally know my eldest can merit from special instruction as he forgets or cannot identify some sins when he goes to confession with me.

The parents duty to raise the children in the faith is ongoing. It never stops, even in spite of divorce.

I did take the opportunity to discuss the 6th and 9th commandment with my estranged spouse and told her that although I would not tell her what to do in her life, I would also never condone such behaviour.

We also had a nice side discussion on the sacramental grace associate with Holy Matrimony and how it is available to help the estranged spouses love and care for each other, even in the midst of divorce and illegitimate annulment proceedings.

Of course, my situation is probably not typical. No indeedy.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 11, 2004.

Mark,

Your response says much... much wrong...

Educating children is an ongoing responsibility and NOT just a requirement up until a civil divorce... Education in Truth (Church teaching) is required and is NOT relative as it is ulitimate truth... As long as one teaches with love intent and not to bring harm that is what matters -- Truth is sometimes a divider and not a uniter -Truth promotes salvation and eternal life -- Truth is the way... Getting along by compromising Truth leads to death... Your advice is incorrect -your presumptive judgment self serving...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 12, 2004.

Daniel, what I read in Mark's response was "do the educating on YOUR time with the children, and not make the other parent waste time reponsponding to this or that". Yes, of course the responsibility to educate and take care of your children goes on after divorce, but if the only time you see your children is on the weekends other things have to get done too. Sure, your divorce may say neither of you may leave the state, but 50-50 joint custody in a decree is easy to achieve in some miniscule state like Rhode Island or Massachussetts, but in large states like California and Texas it turns out to be more like 80-20.

I know non-custodial parents who have to do all of the things the custodial parent is supposed to do, like take the children to the doctor appointments, and shop for clothes when that supposedly is what child support is for.

Yes, if you feel that the ex is doing something wrong, in light of your faith, and you want to explain that to your children, fine, when they are older--say 15 or so. But don't burden them with it when they're young, unless there is going to be a new addition to the household.

And, as an aside, most men don't bother seeking custody until they don't have to pay child care costs any more (in other words, when the child is old enough to be left alone at home, aka "latchkey kids"). These men are not, for the most part, going to quit their jobs and be househusbands. No, that's too demeaning for them, but they whine about child support.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 12, 2004.

GT,

You have a habit of taking things way off-topic. But what Mark actually said was this:

"You had your opportunity to catechize your children with regard to the Sixth Commandment before your divorce. " In other words, Mark was implying that addressing this part of the Chatechism after divorce was off-limits for some reason (in Mark's world).

Enough already about seeking custody as a solution. Its not, it just leads to wasteful litigation and other problems.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 12, 2004.

Well, Anon, you've already made the decision to trash the other parent to your children. If you're looking for someone to tell you you're doing the right thing, then go look in the mirror. No doubt you have already told your children every single thing wrong with your wife who has gotten an annulment (that you don't agree with). Are you going to harp on this 7/24? Let your children have a life.

What about honoring Father and Mother, if you're going to complain about the other commandments being broken? Are you trying to make her seem so bad (and there are things FAR worse than getting remarried after a divorce) so as to have your children tell her to go take a flying leap or worse? Would that make you happy?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 12, 2004.

GT,

You are so very far from the truth it is amazing. My eldest knows almost nothing about sex (or adultery), and equated it with drinking beer (something he knows he will face at a later point in life...but not just yet). We did have a good talk about the other commandments he can grasp at this point.

But it is clear you so very much wish to impeach me. And you are most probably motivated out of a guilty conscience for having obtained an illegitimate annulment, and deep-down knowingly living in sin with a partner who is not your spouse. There is no marital grace between you and that person.

In your heart you know this the truth, and you hate me for bringing it to the surface.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 12, 2004.

"Enough already about seeking custody as a solution. Its not, it just leads to wasteful litigation and other problems."

I will add my two cents to this topic as I am living it...

-- Presented with my wife's choice to leave, take the children divorce etc. I considered the custody question carefully...

Some observations considered and conclusions I came to:

1. My wife did not and does not present a physical danger to our children.

2. My wife may present a spiritual danger to our children.

3. Litigation and the 'civil law' does not recognize spiritual concern -for that matter IT does not recognize any but the most extreme 'moral'/ethical' concerns...

Our children lose no matter who has 'primary' custody.

Taking our children from my wife would be and is just as bad as her taking them from me (Truth is not relative)...

All considered -I chose NOT to fight for custody...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), February 12, 2004.

Hi Daniel,

I chose not to fight for many of the same reasons. And my wife is not so spiritually harmful as yours. My wife has only embraced selfism to some degree (typically the cause of most divorces.) She was also assured by her relatives at the onset she would get an anullment, and it is a big surprize to her how it all turned out.

In our case, anullment was the first choice in dealing with marital strife. No other avenue was pursued or even considered.

Amazingly, my wife appears to have kept entirely chaste all these years. She takes primary care of the children. They are better with her for many reasons, and I'm around them quite often. She promotes this too, as long as she does not have to be around. I pay all child support plus much extra, which keeps things very civil.

-- Anonymous (anon@anon.com), February 12, 2004.

If you have read anything I've written on annulments in general (not having had personal experience with one), you would see that I believe that it is the responsibilty of the couple to ask for one in good conscience, and even that should only apply if they were married in the Catholic Church.

If it is a mere defect of form, bring in the documents to your local parish and that should be that--why should something like that need a tribunal in the first place, to use up precious Church money that could be used elsewhere?

"In our case, anullment was the first choice in dealing with marital strife. No other avenue was pursued or even considered.'

Whose first choice? And why weren't other avenues considered? I have a hard time thinking of otherwise intelligent people (both you and your wife) not considering marriage counseling. Marriage counseling has been around for decades, both religious and secular.

You have decided unilaterally that your annulment was granted incorrectly. I can't say, I wasn't there. But you are not in a position to say that anyone else's was correctly or incorrectly granted.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 12, 2004.

It's clear that my personal experience with parental alienation could be causing me to read things into Anonymous' situation that aren't really there. However, having said that, the extent to which Anonymous' statements follow the typical thought-pattern of an alienator is very scary to me.

In other words, Mark was implying that addressing this part of the Chatechism after divorce was off-limits for some reason (in Mark's world).

What I am saying is that bringing your children into the middle of your disapproval of your wife's behavior is likely to have severe and long-lasting negative consequences to your children's emotional development. And that if you are really the loving father that you claim to be, you will take the time to read about this possibility before you bring up the Sixth (and Ninth) Commandments with your children.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.