Recently photos of Pope John Paul being anoited by a Hindu priestess have circulated the internet and have been blown up out of proportion by evangelicals and schismatcis. This information was taken from Jimmy Akin's apologetics

Q: Someone in the schismatic group the Society of St. Pius X told me that when the pope was in India he had his forehead anointed by a Hindu "priestess of Shiva" and that there is a photo to prove it. Is this true?

A: There is a photo of the pope having his forehead anointed by an Indian woman, but she was a Catholic, not a Hindu priestess! She was giving the pope a traditional Indian form of greeting known as "Aarti," which has no more religious significance than a handshake in western culture or giving someone a wreath of flowers as a welcome in Hawaii.

A letter dated November 22, 1994 from the Pontifical Council for Social Communications explains the custom and its role in Indian society:

"Indian Catholics . . . use 'Aarti' when a child returns home after receiving First Holy Communion, and when a newly married couple are received by their respective families. Nowadays, 'Aarti' is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at an important liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph. On such occasions, 'Aarti' is usually offered by a Catholic married lady, and certainly not by a 'priestess of Shiva' as has been alleged."

The letter, by Archbishop John P. Foley, president of the pontifical council, went on to note: "Use of the 'Aarti' ceremonial by Indian Catholics is no more the worship of a heathen deity than is the decoration of a Christmas tree by American Christians a return to the pagan rituals of Northern Europe."

Your schismatic friend in the Society of St. Pius X should check his facts before spreading such malicious gossip about the holy father (cf. Acts 23:1-5). He was simply about to say Mass and received the traditional Indian form of greeting for the celebrant.

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), February 12, 2004

Answers

We've been through this ad nauseam.

Moderator?

-- jake (j@k.e), February 12, 2004.

"Your schismatic friend in the Society of St. Pius X should check his facts before spreading such malicious gossip about the holy father (cf. Acts 23:1-5). He was simply about to say Mass and received the traditional Indian form of greeting for the celebrant."

Here's the problem, Andrew. I'm not affiliated with the SSPX, but I did go up to Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral in Los Angeles. I snapped a lot of photos, and I'm arranging them and looking into the symbolism behind the art and the architecture, a little into the artists behind them, and into the philosophies and theologies behind them. I'll be done when I'm done, but it clearly shows a solid, consistant presence of Eastern pagan mysticism. And no, it does not portray it in such a way as to draw these philosophies into resolution with true Catholicism. I'm not using any sources except the photos, literature obtained at the Cathedral, magisterial documents and commonly available information about eastern religions.

That photo is neither here nor there, but in the Church, is there most certainly an influence of Eastern pagan mysticism. From what I've done my homework on, yes it's there alright. We need to get rid of it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 12, 2004.

It is a practice in Northern India and in some Southern States as well. This, along with different forms of greetings are used from where I come from, especially when someone of utmost importance is greeted. Many times, a "ponnada" or a white cloth with golden stripes is bestowed upon the guest, and a "thaalapoli" is done, ie flowers, usually jasmine are poured upon the individual. In the Northern States it is different , where the forehead of a person is anointed, most of the times by liquid sandal. The Aarti, these other customs etc are ancient practices, which evolved later into traditional means of honouring a guest or when something important takes place, like a marriage or a holy communion etc. There are times when traidional Indian dance follows, when very important people are present.

Just because those of the Hindu religion use it as well, doesn't mean everyone who do it is a hindu priestess. These are the ways in which important people are greeted, just like in some other parts of the world a handshake or a hug, or a kiss is given. These methods have been here as part of the diverse Indian culture, which catholics and people of every other religion are part of. It was done before and after the apostle came, missionaries came, and these methods of greeting people stayed the same. When people were converted to christianity, they were not trying to throw away the culture and traditional ways, as there are a lot of differences in the East and the West. St Thomas didn't tell them to throw away your culture because it is evil. The holy missionaries throught the years who came here didn't. They stayed, understanding the culture and the diversity. In the north, the formal greeting is saying Namaskar, bowing with palms folded, showing humility. The bow differs in several countries in the East. The same greeting is done by hindus, whether priests or ordinary people, and by everyone as well. This is another form of the handshake or the hug used in the West. Why would these cultural differences in one part of the world be so troubling to some chirsitians who live in another part of the world? This was all there when Indians began to convert long ago, long before even the December 25 celebration began. Don't these people feel ashamed to celebrate december 25 as christmas day because it evolved from a pagan celebration? No you should not, because it was selected to show the superiority of he who created everything. So, are christians who celebrate on that day, and many other practices pagans? Was the church under pagan influence in the early days?

There are christians, hindus, muslims and people of several other religions who are part of the same culture, who do these things which differer from state to state. What we saw here is making a big fuzz about the whole thing for no reason at all, either due to ignorance or due to something else. There are quite a lot of catholic practices which evolved from pagain practices, which actually shows that Christ stands above and destroys all the false Gods, and to show his superiority. Ie, while people find no trouble in still continuing certain things which rooted from western paganism, but finds trouble here. What is actually so frustrating is all the fuzz about something so simple as a method of greeting, which is a part of an ancient culture, which is used by people of all religions in that culture? Is this a result of not understanding the cultural difference of different parts of the world?

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.

Here's a response I received a couple of years ago from a priest in India...

The tilak was, in ancient times, derived from allegiance to Shiva... in modern times, it is considered a suitable greeting for a distinguished visitor---but not for a holy man. The scandal for believers is more that a woman should dance before him, and touch him. The respect that Indian Catholics have for the Vicar of Christ precisely militates against this degrading reception in India.

-- FGC (fgcc4@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.

Emerald,

I work 2 miles from the Cathedral. I have seen it from the outside since they began building it.

Since I don't consider myself a Roman Catholic, I have not gone inside.

What you are describing,

is it outside? It looks allright to me. or is it inside? That I have not seen.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), February 12, 2004.

It's all inside and in the courtyard area; I'll try to get something up soon.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 12, 2004.

Emerald,

using the churches documentation and pictures you could cut and paste anything you want to say. look at what i got out of your first post on this thread by cutting things just right (aside: moderator, this is a humorous joke meant to make a point, so please dont delete):

Here's the problem, Andrew. I'm not affiliated with ...Our Lady of the Angels Cathedral in Los Angeles ...I'm ...looking into ...Eastern pagan mysticism. I'm not using any ...literature obtained at the Cathedral, magisterial documents and commonly available information about eastern religions.

...Eastern pagan mysticism. From what I've done my homework on, yes it's ...alright.

now do you see why i dont necessarily trust the cutting and pasting of documents when you START with a hypothesis and LOOK for things to prove your point?

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 12, 2004.

...............

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2004.

Decide for yourselves when you see it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 12, 2004.

is there most certainly an influence of Eastern pagan mysticism. From what I've done my homework on, yes it's there alright. We need to get rid of it.

Hi Emerald I strongly diagree with you from what I have read of the history of the Catholic Church, esp the early Church.You claim to be a "traditonalist Catholic" yet you repeatedly show IMO a complete lack of historical perspective and an almost total absense of apreciation of the density and complexity of our rich and diverse Catholic heritage. "Reflection" not "reaction" maybe in call my friend?

Pagans, Pilgrams, Mystics, Romans, Greeks, AScetics, etc etc, you name it, its probably had an "influence" on our Catholic heritage somewhere, sometimes a marked impact. Your point about "getting rid of it" shows nothing but IMHO a surprising degree of ignorance .

Perhaps you are making some other point, if so please explain ,its over my head.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 13, 2004.

"Perhaps you are making some other point..."

That's it; I mean recently, and as reflected very recently at the Cathedral in LA. I mean right now.

I looked at what I wrote and I was wondering if someone would construe it to mean that the Catholic Church has always had that influence as if there was something intrinsically wrong with Catholicism. No, not that; I mean a recent influence from the outside, as in something alien to Catholicism intruding into Catholicism.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 13, 2004.

Hi Emerald sorry if I was a bit blunt but look heres what I think for what its worth. I realise you have a keen sense of the vanity and sinfulness of the age we live in but your fears in this case are misguided IMHO. I take your concerns on board , seriosly I always d,o but its more your orientation and view of the world and the Church that concerns me. There is always a danger of getting caught up in the mechanism of man something you profess to hate but unwitiingly have fallen into. You have taken IMO Catholic piety and focussed on the externals of the act to the extent where you forget the interior disposition necessary to to make this act religious. You lose sight of the real meaning of our faith... as Erasmus says "in the last anylsis there is no better way of reconciling yourself with God than reconciling yourself with your brother. IMHO try meditating on the presence of Christ IN THE WORLD if more did this who knows we might just start to see us all heading towards the Omega point. Teilard hard de Chardin has reflected more deeply than most on the relationship of Christs salvic work to the world and if in the unlikely event you care enough Id start with him. WHile I believe that this call of faith is a civil change also needs to occur (ie a structual political ethical change) I will of course aviod offering my politcal ideological solution to real justice! I beg of you to develop greater openess to the world, to rejoice in all that is good and not major in the minors.

Ok your reply

No, not that; I mean a recent influence from the outside, as in something alien to Catholicism intruding into Catholicism.

SOmething "alien" like the impact of the Qumran desert community of Judaism or what about the pagan philosophical systems-neoplatonism and neopythagorianism or do you also deny the "alien" influence of pseduo dionysious which had a huge impact on the patristic period of the Middle ages. Or the knightly ideals of chivarlic literature and all the motiffs that the Church paticularly Crusading warriors absorbed into Christianity.

Im going to be offline for a while maybe 6 months as I really need to try and find some spirtual depth Ima shallow as a GW BUSh cheerleader in that regard, which is a shame because I love reading everything here and staying in touch with all the greenspun crew. I am being called to serve God in a way Im trying hard to avoid, Im obsssed with God its just not right my world revolves around learning and reading more about God!Im running out of places to hide! ANy suggestions?!

Peace!

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 13, 2004.

"There is always a danger of getting caught up in the mechanism of man something you profess to hate but unwitiingly have fallen into."

This is true.

"You have taken IMO Catholic piety and focussed on the externals of the act to the extent where you forget the interior disposition necessary to to make this act religious. You lose sight of the real meaning of our faith... as Erasmus says "in the last anylsis there is no better way of reconciling yourself with God than reconciling yourself with your brother."

It's possible.

"IMHO try meditating on the presence of Christ IN THE WORLD if more did this who knows we might just start to see us all heading towards the Omega point."

That's called Adoration, right?

Btw way, and I'm not playing games here, tell me about this Omega point; I want to hear all about it, and what you think it is, and what you think Chardin means by it.

About the influence I mean, maybe when I get the pictures of that Cathedral up it will serve to explain what I mean.

Looking at the relationship between truths obtained by pagans and it's assimilation by Catholicism is among the top most interesting Catholic topics I can think of. But the devil is in the details literally here; it's all in exactly how these truths ultimately resolve themselves in Catholicism, though. Or should I say, IF they resolve themselves, or burn themselves pure, in the the light of Catholic doctrine. It's got to be a perfect and complete job, or else it becomes toxic. It's kind of like that Japanese puffer fish where if the cook doesn't prepare and cook it just right, it'll poison you.

"Im obsssed with God its just not right my world revolves around learning and reading more about God!Im running out of places to hide!"

You sound more and more like St. Augustine every day.

"ANy suggestions?!"

1. Don't let a day go by without saying your Rosary and giving it the best meditative disposition you have to throw at it that day, and:

2. ...don't listen me.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 14, 2004.

Hello. Sory if im new to a few people. I have people at my high school who spread rumors about this kind of thing. Sorry if i change the subject, but do people in the south have any respect for catholics anymore. This angers me because many of my catholic friends dont say anything about this at school, they just ignore their faith as if it isnt important. Any advice?

-- Felix anderson (sushi2big@netscape.net), February 16, 2004.

Kiwi,

Are you thinking about being the seminary?

-- - (.@.....), February 16, 2004.

Hi Felix Im not AMerican but I never thought Catholics in the South were all that popular in the past but then Ive probably seen too many KKK type movies. I really feel silly giving people advice as Im not very wise myself but just keep smiling,enjoy life for the great gift it is, go out of your way to help people whenever and however you can and work on living out Gods laws youself rather than judging others too much.

Peace Felix!

Hi EMerald congratulations bud on the fantastic news, you keep these things quiet dont you, as if I need to stress the importnce of God in the wolrd when you have 6 children1

"Omega"

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith theLord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty"

"Adoration"

no no no,most certainly not, although more than a few "trad" mates of yours could have this label stuck to them I havent read that much on Chardin just a few essays, hes on the edge, some of his thoughts are not strictly in line with Catholic theology and sadly a reflection of the darker more repressive side of the pre Vatican 2 his thoughts were deemed to be not orthodox ( a very narrow view). Chardin really challenged the conevntional idea that you will see put forward by Paul M and most other theologiacl scientific minds of the complete seperation of science and faith and in doing so was shunned by both the church and the scienitific community. His mystical thoughts need to be treated with some caution but few men can offer such deep and powerful insights into how God is present in the world.

I got onto Chardin by reading Larence S Cunninghman a Catholic professor and author. I am unsure of his reputuation or standing in Catholic circles but he is an inspiration to me- a very balanced and fair writier who realises the imporance of cultural influences but doesnt fall for the extreme progressive views, hes very much traditonal IMO. I have found him of imense help to putting all the pieces together. His book on the "Catholic Hertiage" is a light and easy read but packed full of fascinating quotes and thoughts also full of reccommended readings for anyone who wishes to explore any topic further.

Mystery poster I would have to say yes its certainly something I find myself thinking more and more about.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 17, 2004.

"IMHO try meditating on the presence of Christ IN THE WORLD if more did this who knows we might just start to see us all heading towards the Omega point."

I see this phrase "the presence of Christ IN THE WORLD" and visually and intellectually I default to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. I don't know what it's like for you over there, but do they have Adoration available to you? If they do, take it. 5 kids total.

As you might imagine, the name Chardin evokes in my mind a sound that would be roughly the theological equivalent to racking a Mossberg. As for mysticism, could I convince you to pick up something like The Mystical City of God by Algreda instead? I would throw in a free keg if that's what it takes. If I could part with it.

"I am being called to serve God in a way Im trying hard to avoid, Im obsssed with God its just not right my world revolves around learning and reading more about God!Im running out of places to hide!"

That's very interesting.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 17, 2004.

Well, I will pray for you Kiwi. May Gods will be done.

I'm not a mystery poster Kiwi. Its just me. :-)

-- - (.@.....), February 18, 2004.

Ill keep my eye out in the second hand store for the book Em, thanks David.

Stay well

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 18, 2004.