Why?

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Why are the Protestants say that Catholics worship idols because of the statues of Jesus Mary and the saints? Also why are they so against the way Catholics worship?

-- R.W. (lilanw@yahoo.com), February 27, 2004

Answers

who worships statues? they are beautiful reminders of the people who shaped our christian heritage. plus they are a reminder of the culture of the catholic church, having started and prospered in ancient rome, when statues were an art form.

-- jas (jas_r_22@Hotmail.com), February 27, 2004.

Hi R.W.,

My understanding is that Protestants believe that statues and images go against one of the ten commandments in which God says "you shall not make for yourself a graven image." I think they generally set this aside as a separate commandment. Catholics combine this with the first commandment. The problem with their interpretation of "graven images" is that the this command is in relation to images of false gods and worshipping false gods or the statues themselves. God does not contradict Himself, yet he also told the Jews to create images of cherubim for the Ark of the Covenant and to create a bronze serpent while they were in the desert. He forbid that images be worshipped as gods. That's what happened later when the Hebrews began to worship the brass serpent as an idol and it was destroyed.

If you mean worship as in the Mass, their problems with the Mass are based on two things, as I see it. The first is the misconception that Catholics think we are recrucifying Jesus in the Mass. However, this is not Catholic teaching. Most Protestants don't buy the idea that the Mass is a re-presentation of Jesus' sacrifice, similar to the Passover of the Old Covenant which was a re-presentation of God's saving action in Exodus. The other is the Eucharist itself and the idea of the Real Presence of Christ in teh Eucharist. They interpret the passages in Scripture where Jesus says that "this is my Body" to be paraphrased as "this represents my Body." One problem with this interpretation is that it is not what the Apostles taught or what the earliest Christians believed. I'll refer you to 1 Cor 10:15-22 and 1 Cor 11:17-34. Other evidence of the Real Presence in early Christian belief are Justin Martyr's First Apology, Ch LXVI (c. 156 A.D.) and Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyraeans, Ch VII (c. 115 A.D.).

Hope this helps. Someone please correct me if I got anything wrong. Thanks.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), February 27, 2004.


I see it as people (Protestants) seeing the images as idols when Catholics see them "focus points".

Not all that dissimilar to those (Catholics) who see all Yoga, meditation techniques etc. as wrong.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 27, 2004.


Actually there are many different protestant responses. At as many as there are major protestant divisions.

My own church, Anglican, is the wishy-washy church -- the litergy can be interpeted as either way, true presence or reminder feast. Pity, but that is so. The merger of several views in a democratic comprimise was the reason, I was told. Our priest in our church has 2 statues of Mary. Things vary greatly from parish to parish in this non-central authority creed.

I would expect that most protestants feel that Catholics make too much of Mary.

And I recall that the Graven Images is one of the Eastern Church's sepertion points with the Catholic church. So it is not just western Protestant.

As for the Saints, I feel their loss in the protestant church. They were good people and we need to follow their example. And they often had good advice on how to achieve heaven. But when you toss out the need for a hierarchy to speak to God for you, you toss out the need for saint so-and-so the patron saint of people who do whatever.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), February 27, 2004.


Hi Sean,

From what you're saying in your post, you sound like you're considering becoming Catholic. Is that true? I am currently a Protestant who also attends an Episcopal church (although my Protestant church history is much more extensive than that). I know what you mean about the sense of "wishy-washy-ness," and I am seriously considering Catholicism.

I think the recent appointment of a practicing homosexual bishop in the Episcopal church was a wake-up call for many within the denomination.

You said: But when you toss out the need for a hierarchy to speak to God for you...

This was precisely the clincher for me - finding absolute truth. Protestants claim that the Bible has it, but who can confirm the contents of those books as infallible? I think God puts in people a longing for absolute truth, and I know because I feel that longing more every day. Calvinist (Protestant) theologian RC Sproul said that that Bible is a "fallible collection of infallible books." Is that the best that Protestants can do? It makes me sad.

If you are considering Catholicism, check out the Coming Home Network, an organization for Protestants who are considering conversion to Catholicism. I'd like to hear about your faith journey. God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 27, 2004.



What I am is that I will not be entirely happy anywhere. Episcopal is a good compromise, but I can see the problems in all variations of the Christian faith. Putting down the church I am with is both realistic and a half a nod to the local discussion group.

Protestant churches without any feel for the theology and depth of history. Stump preachers putting their own spin on the Bible. People who have never been challenged in their faith trying to convert others. *BUT* spirited enthusiasm and great love of God, a willingness to go the distance.

Catholic churches without any feeling about anything but the past. Stick head in sand attitudes. *But* greatness and majesty. History and firmness of purpose.

Anglican/Episcopal church with the aforementioned problems of a democracy. *BUT* Healing for those in transition. A lack of pride in origins. A respect for tradition. More than a willingness to listen -- a understanding of the need to convince, not browbeat. A love for all three kinds of fellow members P->Catholic, C->Protastant, born and will die Episcopal.

I have noticed, especially in my times at a Catholic retreat, that there seems to be two kinds of Christian. One who has wandered from his faith and returned knowing that it is good, but very respectful of the alternative, and one that has not, and is rigid, My way or the Highway. I am of the first mentioned kind.

But I am old and do not feel the need to wander. With a few too many emotional issues to rejoin the Church, I will likely stay with my parish, where I was married and where my kids were baptized. It is not that I can not see the blemishes of my variation of Christianity, but that, though they trouble me, I will live with them.

I still respect all variations of Christianity, and all positive faiths. The real enimy is not the next door faith, but the faithless.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), February 27, 2004.


Sean,

"But I am old and do not feel the need to wander."

Joining the Holy Catholic Church cannot be considered wandering; it is coming home to where the fullness of grace and truth dwells.

-- George (rgdenn14@hotmail.com), February 27, 2004.


Sean,

And I recall that the Graven Images is one of the Eastern Church's sepertion points with the Catholic church. So it is not just western Protestant.

If you mean that the Eastern Orthodox do not have images, you are incorrect. The Eastern Church probably has more of an emphasis on images than even the Catholic Church does. Every Orthodox Church is covered in images. Every square inch is covered. On the other hand, the Catholic Church, of today, does not put as much emphasis on images. Hence why most Catholic Churches today have few stained glass windows, few statues and few images. It is sad really.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), February 27, 2004.

Thank you all for your views. May God Bless you.

-- R.W (lilanw@yahoo.com), February 28, 2004.

RW said: Why are the Protestants say that Catholics worship idols because of the statues of Jesus Mary and the saints? Also why are they so against the way Catholics worship?

This is my theory: the foundation for Protestant objections to images and statues and being generally opposed to anything that has a Catholic connotation goes back to the Protestant (De)formation, and what was considered "Catholic" v. "Protestant" acceptable at that time.

The nature of the Catholic Church contains an exclusivity element, since it is the "one true church" and claims infallible interpretation for the pope on matters of faith and doctrine. If one does not accept this, it becomes problematic to be a Christian without denying it. With these authority claims as extreme as they are, any person who considers them must be either following them completely or fiercly opposing them in order to remain consistent as a Christian.

Thus, to be consistent and in good conscience, many Protestants realized that they must object to anything that connotates "Catholic," simply because they feel they must deny that authority. Of course, there are many others (such as myself) who were simply taught that the Catholics were wrong, and Protestants should feel sorry for them, as they are living in deception and we should try to gently get them to convert. Then there are others who will beat Catholics over the head with Bibles (not usually? literally) and tell them they will go to hell if they remain Catholic, thus attempting to scare them into Protestantism.

All that to say, the heritage of Protestantism back at the time of the Deformation set the standard for what is "acceptable" to keep from Catholic teaching (despite being outside the Bible, such as the doctrine of the Trinity) and what is not acceptable (such as praying to Mary or the saints, asking for their prayers).

Protestants argue that this practice violates the first (Catholic) commandment (see below).

Note: Protestants call v. 3 the 1st command and v. 4-6 the second command. Catholics call v. 3-6 the 1st commandment.

Exodus 20:3-5 (KJV)
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Remember, though, that persecution is the sign of the true Church.

Matthew 10:22 (KJV) And ye shall be hated of all men for my [Jesus'] name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), March 01, 2004.



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