Which Gospel came first: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or "Thomas"?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
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The Catholic Church and its daughters the Protestants and other Catholic groups accept 4 Gospel as true (canonicals).
They believe Matthew and John were written by disciples of Jesus.
They also believe Mark and Luke come disciples of Jesus disciples.
Which do you think came first?
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004
Others like the producers of the movie "Stigmata" and theJesus seminar believe that the Gospel of Thomas should be included in the Canon.The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
I hope I can get the Jesus Seminar page now.For comparison of these gospel you can use the next link. Each section which matches the others is color coded for each gospel it is found. Some of these sayings are paralled in Paul's letters. Paul is our oldest source for JESUS SAYINGS.
Here are these
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
Here areFor those trying to understand Thomas saying by saying and where it matches the 4 canonicals. Here is Gospel of Thomas in translation, with commentaries and with Funk's paralles to other gospels and books.
The Christian Yahwist
The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
Jim and Rod,If you care about reading stuff that is critical about Jesus, his family, Paul, origin of the gospels, Daniel, and revelation then try this link on Bernard D. Muller.
Click on all of his theses.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
Bernard Mueller
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
It seems there are 2 ways of discussing religious history. One being based in "faith," i.e. "as it was written," or as taught by the Church. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are seen as actual diciples of Christ etc. The other approach is academically based involving "empirical evidence."Many whose arguments come directly from a position of faith find the academically based arguments to be heretical and appalling. Those taking a purely academic approach tend to "humor" the "faithful" approach or in some cases treat it with similar distain.
Is there a way of balancing the approaches of "Faith" and "empirical evidence"? Personally I try to keep them separate and to treat each perspective with respect. This then leads me to suspect I'm probably fooling myself. How do the faithful maintain their faith when examining our religious heritage under a microscope?
That being said, back to the original question ... I tend to believe along the lines of the "Jesus Seminar" hypothosis. Paul's writings being the earliest and then the Gospels: Mark first, then Matthew, Luke and finally John. I wasn't sure about "Q" but in light of becoming more familiar with the Gospel of Thomas, and believing it to have been compiled in the early 2nd century. It seems possible that Thomas used both Mark, Q, or some other early text to produce sayings that were recognizable as Orthodox but that presupposed a Gnosic audience.
Not really too sure about any of the above. Just a snap-shot of how things are loosely lining up in my current hazy understanding.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 06, 2004.
I must find a direct correlation with History and Scriptures. One does not contradict the other. Now, man's interpretation is the fly in the ointment.................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
To some, even suggesting that the Gospels were not written by the actual original diciples of Jesus is unacceptable. Not worthy of discussion.Also I don't know how this particular discussion (Chronology and Gospel authorship) could be confirmed from an both historical and scriptual basis. It seems to me its either a question of faith, or of historical evidence. I don't see how the two could be combined.
As a Catholic, I'm not sure we are actually required to believe that the authors are actual original "diciples." I have often heard priests in my parish refering to the Gospels during the sermon in terms of ... the author of Mark, or the author of John. Seems obvious they are assming the authors are different from the names given to the Gospels.
-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 06, 2004.
Interesting! I guess that's what makes me more like a Catholic than not. I would also be prone to saying, "the authors of Mark", too. That, too, would make me a non-Fundamentalist. When I read the Scriptures, the meanings go beyond the imediate simple text. But, faith in the Scriptures may not mean faith in history. History, as recorded by men, is flawed. Of course, some in this forum may claim Scriptures to be flawed. The only reason I would agree with them would be shown through the many versions of those Scriptures, but that isn't the Scripture's fault, but the ones who made those versions and their errors............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
It has been done by Elpidio. He has raised issues as to the real authors of certain books in the Bible. He has opened my eyes a bit more.BTW, in regards to history, Josephus can be read with a high degree of acceptance when relying on historical proofs of Scriptural issues. But, it does seem rather flirtacious(sp?)to resort to Josephus and not rely on "Sola Scriptura". But, it's that "empirical proof" we ultimately flirt with anyway.
...............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 06, 2004.
My order of compilation is like this:Thomas-Included mostly sayings of Jesus, John the baptist, what was Matthew's original sermon on the mount, Jesus family.
Early John- Also known as Signs Gospel (As called by Jesus Seminar) ,but I call it Gospel of Phillip since I believe it was made for the samaritans. It includes the miracles, Jesus entrace into Jerusalem, jesus crucufixion, and appearance to Mary Magdalene.
Mark- relied on Thomas and Signs Gospel (Early John).
Matthew
Luke
John (final redaction).
Only Mark and Luke written by early disciples of the disciples. Maybe Early John (Signs Gospel).
The Christian Yahwist The Man of Yahweh
PS: I will give an analysis for this later. I am doing grades now at school.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.
Why I think Thomas is First Written: The use of parables same as Mark, kingdom of God, family thinks Jesus is crazy,John the baptist,...The parables of Jesus Notice that only a few parables from Mark match those of Matthew and Luke. These same parables in Mark are found in Thomas Gospel.
Also notice Thomas lay out from thi same site:
Gospel of Thomas Prologue - Jesus spoke and Thomas wrote Gospel of Thomas Saying 1 - Importance of interpreting the obscure sayings Gospel of Thomas Saying 2 - Seek until you find Gospel of Thomas Saying 3 - The kingdom is within us Gospel of Thomas Saying 4 - The first will be last Gospel of Thomas Saying 5 - The obscure will become disclosed Gospel of Thomas Saying 6 - True fasting, prayer, and charity Gospel of Thomas Saying 7 - The lion and the human being Gospel of Thomas Saying 8 - A parable of an intelligent fisherman Gospel of Thomas Saying 9 - A parable of a sower Gospel of Thomas Saying 10 - Jesus has cast fire Gospel of Thomas Saying 11 - The living will not die Gospel of Thomas Saying 12 - The disciples will come to James Gospel of Thomas Saying 13 - The disciples tell Jesus what he resembles Gospel of Thomas Saying 14 - True fasting, prayer, and charity Gospel of Thomas Saying 15 - One not born of woman Gospel of Thomas Saying 16 - Jesus has come to impose divisions Gospel of Thomas Saying 17 - Jesus will bestow what has not been perceived Gospel of Thomas Saying 18 - The end is where the beginning is Gospel of Thomas Saying 19 - The preexistent is blessed, Five trees in paradise Gospel of Thomas Saying 20 - A parable of a mustard seed Gospel of Thomas Saying 21 - A parable of children living in a plot of land Gospel of Thomas Saying 22 - Those who enter the kingdom resemble little ones Gospel of Thomas Saying 23 - Few are chosen Gospel of Thomas Saying 24 - A person of light enlightens the whole world Gospel of Thomas Saying 25 - Love your sibling Gospel of Thomas Saying 26 - The speck and the beam Gospel of Thomas Saying 27 - Abstinence from the world Gospel of Thomas Saying 28 - The world is intoxicated Gospel of Thomas Saying 29 - Independence of spirit and body Gospel of Thomas Saying 30 - Jesus dwells where there are two or more Gospel of Thomas Saying 31 - Prophets and physicians are not accepted at home Gospel of Thomas Saying 32 - A city on a hill cannot be hidden Gospel of Thomas Saying 33 - No one hides a lamp Gospel of Thomas Saying 34 - The blind cannot lead the blind Gospel of Thomas Saying 35 - No one robs the strong without subduing them Gospel of Thomas Saying 36 - What we wear is unimportant Gospel of Thomas Saying 37 - The disciples must strip off their garments Gospel of Thomas Saying 38 - Jesus' sayings have long been awaited Gospel of Thomas Saying 39 - Pharisees and Scribes impede acquaintance Gospel of Thomas Saying 40 - A parable of a grapevine Gospel of Thomas Saying 41 - The person who has will receive Gospel of Thomas Saying 42 - We should be passersby Gospel of Thomas Saying 43 - Disciples should recognize Jesus in his sayings Gospel of Thomas Saying 44 - On blasphemy Gospel of Thomas Saying 45 - Grapes do not come from thorns Gospel of Thomas Saying 46 - Little ones are more exalted than John the Baptist Gospel of Thomas Saying 47 - Opposites cannot coexist Gospel of Thomas Saying 48 - The power of unity Gospel of Thomas Saying 49 - Solitaries have come from the kingdom Gospel of Thomas Saying 50 - We have come from the light Gospel of Thomas Saying 51 - Arrival of repose and a new world Gospel of Thomas Saying 52 - The twenty-four prophets of Israel Gospel of Thomas Saying 53 - True circumcision Gospel of Thomas Saying 54 - The poor Gospel of Thomas Saying 55 - We should hate our family Gospel of Thomas Saying 56 - The world is a corpse Gospel of Thomas Saying 57 - A parable of wheat and tares Gospel of Thomas Saying 58 - The laborer Gospel of Thomas Saying 59 - We should meditate on the one who is alive Gospel of Thomas Saying 60 - A parable of a Samaritan and a lamb Gospel of Thomas Saying 61 - Jesus on Salome's couch Gospel of Thomas Saying 62 - Jesus tells his secrets to the worthy Gospel of Thomas Saying 63 - A parable of a rich man who died Gospel of Thomas Saying 64 - A parable of a dinner for out-of-town guests Gospel of Thomas Saying 65 - A parable of the murder of a vineyard owner's son Gospel of Thomas Saying 66 - The rejected building stone Gospel of Thomas Saying 67 - Any deficiency is utter deficiency Gospel of Thomas Saying 68 - The persecuted are blessed Gospel of Thomas Saying 69 - The internally persecuted and the compassionate are blessed Gospel of Thomas Saying 70 - Our salvation is within us Gospel of Thomas Saying 71 - Destruction of "this building" Gospel of Thomas Saying 72 - Jesus is not an arbitrator of possessions Gospel of Thomas Saying 73 - Workers for the harvest Gospel of Thomas Saying 74 - The cistern is empty Gospel of Thomas Saying 75 - Solitaries will enter the bridal chamber Gospel of Thomas Saying 76 - A parable of a merchant and a pearl Gospel of Thomas Saying 77 - Jesus is the entirety and is everywhere Gospel of Thomas Saying 78 - The goal of coming out to the countryside Gospel of Thomas Saying 79 - Those who have kept the father's utterance are blessed Gospel of Thomas Saying 80 - The world is like the body Gospel of Thomas Saying 81 - The rich should reign and renounce Gospel of Thomas Saying 82 - Fire and the kingdom are with Jesus Gospel of Thomas Saying 83 - Light is hidden by images Gospel of Thomas Saying 84 - Our encounter with our preexistent images Gospel of Thomas Saying 85 - Adam was not worthy of us Gospel of Thomas Saying 86 - The son of man has nowhere to lay his head Gospel of Thomas Saying 87 - Soul should be independent of body Gospel of Thomas Saying 88 - We should give to messengers and prophets Gospel of Thomas Saying 89 - We should wash not only the outside Gospel of Thomas Saying 90 - Jesus' yoke is easy Gospel of Thomas Saying 91 - Recognition of Jesus' presence Gospel of Thomas Saying 92 - We do not seek what Jesus wishes to tell us Gospel of Thomas Saying 93 - Do not give the holy to dogs Gospel of Thomas Saying 94 - Seekers will enter Gospel of Thomas Saying 95 - We should not lend at interest Gospel of Thomas Saying 96 - A parable of a woman baking bread Gospel of Thomas Saying 97 - A parable of a woman with a jar of meal Gospel of Thomas Saying 98 - A parable of an assassination Gospel of Thomas Saying 99 - Jesus' true family Gospel of Thomas Saying 100 - Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's Gospel of Thomas Saying 101 - We should hate our family and love our true family Gospel of Thomas Saying 102 - Pharisees impede nourishment Gospel of Thomas Saying 103 - A parable of a landowner and brigands Gospel of Thomas Saying 104 - Do not pray or fast while the bridegroom is present Gospel of Thomas Saying 105 - Acquaintance with the father and the mother Gospel of Thomas Saying 106 - The power of wholeness Gospel of Thomas Saying 107 - A parable of a lost sheep Gospel of Thomas Saying 108 - Assimilation to Jesus Gospel of Thomas Saying 109 - A parable of a hidden treasure Gospel of Thomas Saying 110 - The rich should renounce Gospel of Thomas Saying 111 - The living will not die Gospel of Thomas Saying 112 - Soul should be independent of flesh Gospel of Thomas Saying 113 - The kingdom is already spread over the earth Gospel of Thomas Saying 114 - The female element must make itself male
Most of this sayings are found in Mark and in Matthew's sermon on the mount.(That is, thre was no sermon on the mount as Matthew says).
The Christian Yahwist
The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2004.
Thus, Thomas, Jim and rod, follows no particular pattern.It makes sense.
When we write a book, we write pieces from what we remember at that particular moment.
Mark already is organized. It has absorbed more than 50% of thomas. Mathew has 15% more of Thomas Mark doesn't.
This means that Thomas was also evolving.
This could agree with Rod's vision of this gospel used by Gnostics. Gnostics were descended from Nazarenes, so it makes sense they used it.
That is why I mentioned the sabeans. The still live in Iraq. They still sound gnostic. Over 100,000 of them. They follow cleansing rituals and follow John the baptist.
The Christian Yahwist.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2004.
Jim and Rod:Besides those points, Thomas like Mark has no Samaritans in a good light like John and Luke do. So Thomas has to be first.
Mark and John agree almost on the way they lay out Jesus life: The baptist, Jesus preaching(Mark around Galilee, John around Jerusalem), Jesus miracles (with long speeches in John, parables in Mark), Jesus entry into Jerusalem(put at the beginning in John, at the end of Mark), Jesus arrest, Jesus crucifixion, Jesus burial, Jesus not at the tomb. This shows John ended at ch. 20 and appearance to Thomas wasn't there unless Thomas is James his brother!!!!(See 1 Corinthians 15).
Since John doesn't seem to know Jesus preached in Galilee most of the time, I then suspect original John came first. It was probably the work of Samaritans. Notice that samaritans are treated good. Also, Phillip is prominent here as is Thomas.
One anomaly I find in John is this:As time went by, people tried to make Jesus God that they made Jesus mom Mary into a sister, whose name is even Mary!!!
These made Jesus brothers as mentioned by Thomas, Mark, and Paul(I Corinthians 8, 15),and Acts his cousins!!!
Jhn 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Jesus real brothers:
Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
(Salome is one of Jesus sisters. This Salome is not the one who asked for John's head. That one was a Herodian)
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2004.
Quite a bit to digest Elpidio! I'll need some time to think. Some questions are brewing...just not sure what they are yet.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 09, 2004.
Jim,I felt that I could remain Catholic and still believe Jesus wasn't od yahweh himself. Unfortunately there is only rejection.
Dogmas, as Rod and I have previously discussed in dreams he had, blind people to the truth.
Yet, if after all the avalanches one still remains focused on what salvation is, what is God's purpose for us on Earth, what future in eternity awaits us, then we truly remain focused on the truth.
As the writer of john said in Jesus mouth: The truth shall make you free (to worship God , that is).
I am little by little introducing evidence as to which two gospel came first: Thomas and early John(Signs Gospel, which I called Phillip) and Mark (first rendition).
I have a theory Rod and Jim as to who Mark really is. My clue is this: his first name in Hebrew is John. Mark is Latin. It has to do with 3 passages: one in Mark about a young man who runs naked, a passage in John which deals with the discipple Jesus loved, and Acts story of Peter going to Mark's house in jerusalem. His mother is Mary!!!
I will explain this later as I introduce Mark next time tomorrow probably, God willing.
The christian Yahwist
The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 10, 2004.
I think you are talking about the "Secret Gospel of Mark" supposedly discovered by Morton Smith in a letter by Clement that discussed another version of Mark? Lots of controversy over parts of it, ... possible forged additions by a kinky gnostic group called Carpocratians. (maybe even Morton?) I'm interested in what you think.As for Thomas:
Still, most think the gnostic movements were a second century phenomenon. How do you explain the Gnostic flavor of Thomas?
( Salvation by "understanding" the "secret" teachings of Jesus stressed over death and resurrection? )
I know there are many sayings that could fit into orthodox understanding, but the gnostic overtones seem to pull it away, timewise from the earliest writings.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 11, 2004.
Jim, I know the Secret saying from Secret Mark about the young man.This saying elaborates on who was the young man from Mark:
Mar 14:51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about [his] naked [body]; and the young men laid hold on him:
Mar 14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
John, the gospel, elaborates on this unknown disciple:
This means he knew about a certain deisciple Jesus cared about: Jhn 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Jhn 13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
Jhn 13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
Jhn 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.
Jhn 18:15 And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and [so did] another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.
Jhn 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Jhn 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
John (Mark?) is now in charge of Jesus mother!!!
Jhn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home]. Here, there is a John who who related to priests: Act 4:6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
Peter after escaping goes to John's (Mark) house whose mother is Mary!!!: Act 12:12 And when he had considered [the thing], he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
John (Mark )is related to Barnabas, a levite: Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, [and] of the country of Cyprus,
The only reason this disciple could not be the John, brother of James, who were fishermen is because this person seem to be a levite or priest. Also, he is known to the high priest when he enters his house after jesus arrest.
A fisherman would not be known to the priests!!!
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 12, 2004.
Hi Elpidio,I'm not sure if I'm getting it. Are your conclusions leading you to believe that Mark is actually John "the diciple Jesus loved?" And is therefore a "first hand" account? If so, and this is just from bits and pieces of what I've read, most scholars believe that the diciples were illiterite. Do you think John/Mark had access to scribes who wrote it for him, or do you think he was not illiterate, wrote it himself in Aramaic and it was later transcribed to Greek? Or was he multilingual? Or was an oral tradition coming from John/Mark later compiled from memory and later written in Greek. Do you think there were ever Aramaic versions of the Gospels that have never been found?
BTW, nice picture Teach! I always struggled with math. I think that part of my brain functions differently. Thankfully, the rest works OK.
-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 13, 2004.
Jim, there was a tradition that a certain John took care of Jesus mother Mary.The only disciple named John who lived in Jerusalem is John Mark, from a priestly family.
You know levites and priests were the ones that could read and write.
The strange event which connects John Mark to Jesus family is this saying in Acts: When Peter leaves prison he goes to this house:
Act 12:12 And when he had considered [the thing], he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.
Act 12:13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda.
Act 12:14 And when she knew Peter's voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate.
Act 12:15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.
Act 12:16 But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened [the door], and saw him, they were astonished.
Act 12:17 But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.
Jim, do you see it kind of strange for Peter to go to Joh Mark's house to see James, the Lord's brother?
This means John Mark had given them sanctuary in his house.
So these other weird scriptures now make sense:
Luk 24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary [the mother] of James, and other [women that were] with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.
James was the brother of Jesus. His mother was Mary.
So who got killed here?
Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Taken from the Blue Bible The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 15, 2004.
James the son of Zebedee? JAmes the brother of the Lord was not killed by a sword.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 15, 2004.
Right, Jim, he is the son of Zebadee.James the brother of jesus was beaten up by fuller's cllubsby AD 62 or 63.
The Christian Yahwist PS: (Eisenman thinks James the son of Zebadee did not exist!!! I do)
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.
Jim, by looking at this list:Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.
Peter (Kefa) is Andrew's brother. James and John are brothers.
By deducing pairs, then one can see that
James of Alpheus(clopas), Simon Zelotes(the zelot), and Judas of James are brothers of Jesus.
Why do I think this way, because John at the beginning of Jesus ministry only mentions 7 disciples, none of them is these 3:
Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Jhn 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Phillip is with Nathanael. Friend? cousin? We don't know. So Nathanael is either Bartholomew (Bartolmai is a last name, not a first name since bar means son) or Thomas. Thomas means twin so is not a name either.
John mentions just like Mark that Jesus family members still did not believe in him.
Jhn 7:4 For [there is] no man [that] doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.
Jhn 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
Mar 3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
So Joseph is the only brother of Jesus who did not join him, it seems, in his ministry later on.
Matthias is Matthew.He was chosen to replace Judas Isacariot, that is, the Sicari (another type of Zelot).
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.
I believe Eisenman thinks that NT authors or perhaps later scribes substituted other names for James (the Just)to cover his tracks in order to diminish his importance. I wish I had a copy of the book, its been a few years, but I believe he thinks the story about Stephen's fate was a story originally attributed to James. HE probably thinks James the son of Zebedee is another construction to cover over James (the Just, the brother of the Lord.)Have you finished that book?
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 16, 2004.
Jim,I am on page 835(James, brother of Jesus). Almost there.Yes, Jim, Eisenman thinks James the son of Zebadee never existed. He implies James is Jesus, though not directly. That one is his last saying: Whoever Jesus was James was.
He thinks Stephen is an official who was attacked in AD 50s. He thinks that what is described as Stephen's beating was James beating by Paul!!!
But I have to agree to a certain exent with his idea that some of these disciples were brothers of Jesus.
He also makes the observation that Cleophas is the same as Clopas. Clopas is the suppposed husband of mary's sister by the same name. He is also one of the two who meet Jesus on the way, after his resurrection (see Luke 24).
This begs the question, does Eisenman think, since he also believes Joseph is a fictitious name for Jesus father, that Clopas is Jesus real Father? He doesn't say.
The problem, as he points out, Mark doesn't name Jesus father. Neither does Thomas.
This is something I have to investigate.
The Christian Yahwist
The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.
He also , I forgot to mention, Jim, that Alphaeus is Cleophas.Maybe, maybe not.
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 16, 2004.