Is the Nation of Israel still God's chosen people

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Is the Nation of Israel still God's chosen people?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004

Answers

Yes and no.

Yes, because God,First under the name El with Abraham and later under the name Yahweh under Moses, chose them first.

No, they are not God's only chosen people.

God chose a new people under Jesus name. The Church originally called the Way (see Acts 24 and 26) later became the Catholic Church, which later became the Roman catholic, the Orthox, The Syriac , the Nestorian, the Armenian, the Copt, The Protestant( Lutherans, Reformed, Presbyterian...), ....

He also chose a man from the Desert: Muhammad about the age of 40. His followers are the Muslims of today.

In the 20th century people who carry his name: Jehonvah's Witnesses, The Assemblies of Yahweh,...

In the 21 st Century....

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.


"Is the Nation of Israel still God's chosen people?"

If you mean the "Physical" nation of Israel, then the answer is NO.

God says in Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 10, 2003.


Kevin, do you remember Paul's words about the Gospel? To the Jew first, then...

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.


Yes Elpidio, the gospel was first given to the Jews then after the Jews REJECTED the gospel, they turned to the gentiles. (Acts 13:46).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 11, 2003.


The Jews are the Old Covenant.

The Church ~ the Eternal Most Holy Catholic Church ~ is the New Covenant.

SACRED TRUTH :

THE ROCK ~

THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

The Church ~ prepared for in the Old Covenant

The gathering together of the People of God began at the moment when sin destroyed the communion of men with God, and that of men among themselves. The gathering together of the Church is, as it were, God's reaction to the chaos provoked by sin. This reunification is achieved secretly in the heart of all peoples: "In every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable" to God (Acts 10:35).

The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people (Gen 12:2; 15:5-6). Its immediate preparation begins with Israel's election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of all nations (Ex 19:5-6; Deut 7:6; Isa 2:2-5; Mic 4:1-4). But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. "Christ instituted this New Covenant." (Hos 1; Isa 1:2-4; Jer 2; 31:31-34; Isa 55:3)

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 12, 2003.


Even today, David and Kevin, people from Judaism are turning to Christ.

God has not abandoned them. He allowed them to come back to Israel. The became a nation again in 1948. Last time they were a nation was in 62 BC.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 12, 2003.


Yes. Going back to the old covenant, Gen. 12:1-3 is the promise offered to Abraham and his descendents. This says nothing of a temporary covenant. This says nothing about His covenant being vetoed when the Messiah would come. For God to reject His people is God to reject His own Word.

-- The Noah (mickey_delevishini@hotmail.com), November 20, 2003.


" He allowed them to come back to Israel. The became a nation again in 1948"

Kevin does not believe this (Am I right?). But those who don't believe in the authority of the Old Testament, how do they explain this prophecy that was fulfilled in 48'. Wasn't the denomination churhes of christ (long before 48') saying the Old Testament had no authority and that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 7, 2003.


Did God miss a prophecy?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 7, 2003.


"Wasn't the denomination churhes of christ (long before 48') saying the Old Testament had no authority and that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70?"

No David. Who told you that nonsense???

Which prophecy was it that was fulfilled? Book, chapter and verse please.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 7, 2003.


Ezek. 20:33-38, 22:17-22, 36:22-24, 37:1-14; Isa. 11:11-12; Zeph. 2:1-2; Ezek. 38-39

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 7, 2003.


The Nation of Israel is what I'm talking about.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 7, 2003.


David,

Those prophecies in the OT do NOT speak of fulfillment in the NT. There is one NT verse that speaks of the Jews and their going away and this speaks of what happened in A.D. 70 in Luke 21:24, "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The return of Israel to a nation in 1948 was the fulfillment of NT prophecy, NOT OT prophecy.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 7, 2003.


testing...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2004.

Jeremiah 31:7-11 declares the return of God's people into their own land, plus other portions of scripture. But Romans 9, 10 and 11 explain best God's dealings with His people Israel today.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid!.......... For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:1 & 25 - 32

To the 'seed of Isaac' "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" Romans 9:4

God Bless...

-- Gillian... (Gilliantwin@msn.com), March 08, 2004.


"Is the Nation of Israel still God's chosen people?"

Just how could they be?!?!?!?! They are Jews.

as a genus, the Jewish peoples were chosen, but are no more. those Jews that became Catholic joined those Gentiles that become Catholic, as God's people. and that is how it is today.

the New Covenant reigns supreme.

the rest is semantics.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 08, 2004.


David, this is the first restored thread, isn't it?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2004.


I think there is a difference between *chosen*--as in the Jews.., and *called*, as in Christians.

There is no doubt that the Bible reveals unfinished business between the Jews and Himself--as prophesied in Daniel...and revealed in Revelation. This judgement is on unbelieving Israel--the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" or better known as the Tribulation Period--for which the church is removed from.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.



why does this have to be so complicated? what exactly is the agenda here?

the Jews that remained Jews are not Christians and, therefore, are not chosen.

the Jews and the Gentiles that chose Christ are chosen.

we know this from Scripture. you do not need to be a genius to work it out. ferretinga round in the OT adds nothing but apparent obfuscation. it's clear as crystal in the NT. the New Covenant.

the Romans did not want Jesus crucified. the Jewish establishment chose a murderer.

thise who stayed with the esrablishment through fear of the persecution that they committed against the early Christians -- well, that is not for me to judge.

however, the Old Covenant is called "old" for a reason. the New Covenant is called "new" for a reason.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 08, 2004.


Though much that the prophets foretold concerning Israel is yet future, nine major prophecies involving specific and historically verifiable details have already been fulfilled precisely as foretold centuries beforehand.

God promised a land of clearly defined boundaries (Genesis 15:18-21) to Abraham (Genesis 12:1; 13:15; 15:7; etc..). He renewed that promise to Abraham's son Issac (Genesis 26:3-5), to his grandson Jacob (Genesis 28:13), and to their descendants after them forever (Lev. 25:46; Joshua 14:9; etc..).

It is a historical fact that God brought these *chosen people* (Exodus 7:7-8; Deut. 7:6; 14:2; etc..) into the "Promised Land," an amazing story of miracles itself.

When the jewish people entered the Promised Land, God warned them that if they practiced the idolatry and immorality of the land's previous inhabitants, whom He had destroyed for their evil (Deaut. 28:63; 1Kings 9:7; 2 Chron. 7:20 etc..). That this happened, is again an indisputable fact of history.

God finally declares that His people would be scattered "among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other" (Deut. 28:64; 1 Kings 9;7; Nehemiah 1:8; Amos 9:9; Zechariah; etc..) And so it happened.

God declared that in spite of the persecution and periodic wholesale slaughter of the Jews, He would not let His chosen people be destroyed, but would rather preserve them as an identifiable ethnic, national group (Jeremiah 30:11; 31:35-37; etc).

The Jews had every reason to intermarry, to change their names, and to hide their identity by any possible means in order to escape persecution. Why preserve their bloodline when they had no land of their own, when most of them did not take the Bible literally, and when racial identification imposed only the cruelest disadvantages?

The fact that the Jews have remained an identifiable people--against all odds, is astonishing. After all--these exiled people werer scattered to every corner of the earth for 2500 years since the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 B.C.

But the Bible tells us that God has determined to keep His chosen people separated to Himself (Exodus 33:16; Lev 20:26) because He would bring them back into their land in the last days (Jeremiah 30:10; 31:8-12; Ezekeil 36:24, 35-38) prior to the messiah's second coming. That prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.

God also declared that before the second coming--Jerusalem would become "a cup of trembling..a burdensome stone for all people.." (Zech. 12:2-3). Today--the entire world's eyes is upon Jerusalem. What an incredible fulfillment of prophecy.

There are prophecies concerning Israel and Jerusalem which pertain to the endtimes that have not yet been fulfilled. We can be certain, based on all that has been fulfilled with respect to Israel--that these too will surely be realized. The most appalling time of utter destruction both for Jewes and the entire unbelieving world lies ahead. It is called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7).

With astonishing accuracy--the Bible does not single out Damascus, Cairo, London or Paris as the center of action in the last days., but two specific cities...Jerusalem and Rome.

God's true church--his body of believers will not face the judgement that these people will face.

-- (Faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.


....and then there was....

...THE NEW COVENANT.

so everything that Faith has posted is, substantively, water under the bridge,....,

which takes me back to the quandary as to whether it is really worthwhile spending yr afternoons digging around in the OT, just looking for problems,.....,

,...... as in,...., the OT that very few people understand, but that any fool can (deliberately or accidentally) twist and turn to meet his own needs, etc,.. etc,,...

-- Ian (ib@verifgo.com), March 08, 2004.


the "Old" Testament

the "New" Testament

the "Old" Covenant

the "New" Covenant

as it was supposed to be but for ...

as it IS ...

New vs Old vs New vs Old vs New vs ....

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 08, 2004.


Sorry Ian.., but the New Covenant only makes the the Old Covenant (Law) obsolete.

It has nothing to do with prophecy regarding other areas in Scripture.

God has unfinished business with the Jewish nation of Israel and with the *Woman* on the beast (the apostate religion/new world order), with antichrist (the beast), and with Satan himself.

Those who are saved through the New Covenant will not be here for these endtime prophecies. That is what the rapture is all about.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2004.



The covenant God made with Abraham concerning Himself and Abrahams' physical seed and concerning the land of Canaan, was not an 'old' or 'new' covenant, but an 'everlasting' one.

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Gen. 17:7,8

God Bless...

-- Gillian... (Gilliantwin@msn.com), March 09, 2004.


The Epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews, Chapter 8

6 But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament which is established on better promises.

7 For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second.

8 For, finding fault with them, he saith: Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect, unto the house of Israel and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:

9 Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord. For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.

12 Because I will be merciful to their iniquities: and their sins I will remember no more.

13 Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end.

see especially verse 13. the old covenant was to be everlasting but has come to a natural end.

as for the significance of the people of Israel, the new Israel are those baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, repenting of sin,........, etc. The Catholic Church, IOW.

now consider this. the old covenant was terminated because the Jews failed to stand by it.

by the same token, read St Paul's Epistle to the Romans, Chapters 10 & 11; but bear in mind that St Paul is attempting to keep the ex- Jewish Christians onside, there being friction between Gentiles and Jews in the Church in Rome.

he more or less argues that the new Israel is Christianity. the rest is sales-puff. he is saying that they (Jewish converts, but not other Jews) are still chosen, BUT ONLY IF they accept Christ, AND ONLY AS MUUCH AS the Gentile converts are also now chosen. he even tried to kid them that their faliure to comply with the old testament has been a good thing because it has opened the door for the entire world.

i don't know what this means for Faith's prophesying.

but i think that it turns everything on its head.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 09, 2004.


The problem Ian..,

Is that you fail to recognize that it is the Law that comes to an end. The Law of Old Testament times was provided in order to reveal our sinful and hopeless ways. The point of the Law was to show us that we could never *do* enough to earn our way to heaven. Jesus is the solution, so that with the New Covenant--we are no longer judged according to the Law, but according to whether or not we are saved in Christ or not. No effort or work on our part could ever be good enough. So Jesus did away with the Law not by abolishing it--but by fulfilling it.

The New Jerusalem is indeed the church--those called by faith in Christ. This church will not be here during God's judgement on the rest of the world. We [the church] are already judged in Christ.

But there is still some reconing to be done between God and His chosen people the Jews, and the rest of the unbelieving world--who will suffer judgement in the Time of Jacob's Trouble. It's in the Bible Ian....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2004.


as Arnie would mutter, "i'll be back" on this one.

really struggling to accept yet more conspiracy theories. appreciate the effort you are making though. i am learning and that cannot be a bad thing.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 09, 2004.


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