Anon, I plan to prohibit anyone from promoting doctrine that is not in keeping with that taught by the Catholic Church. While everyone is encouraged to give their views on any given subject, prolonged, obstinate false teaching will not be permitted. Afterall, this is a Catholic forum. I would appreciate the help of all Catholics in defending the Faith in the forum and would like to be apprised of any unorthodox views you discover you feel has skewed or misrepresented Catholic teaching.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), March 23, 2004.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Bth4

How's that for "freedom of speech" ????

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 23, 2004

Answers

..

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 23, 2004.

The Catholic Forum is becoming more conservative.

This happened after John Gecik gave the Forum an ultimatum (his second) that he would live by the end of February.

After his first one, the Catholic Forum was attacked, just like we were . Then he came to the rescue by restoring threads.

That's when he gave his second threat about expelling those not orthodox again.

Ed has begun to delete many threads.

I think he has taken John Gecik's words seriously. The day John left in February, our forum was attacked.

Neo-conservatives? ???

David Ortiz may tell you he doesn't like what you say, even call someone like me a non-Christian, yet, he is open enough to see other points o view.

Why, maybe because he wants to know how to deal with people like me, Ian, and Rod in the future.

The Christian Yahwist

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 23, 2004.

Personally, I'm open to discussing anything with anybody..."The Jim Forum" is always open. Really, I'm not too alarmed about Ed's clarification of the "Rules." I think Ed is trying to more clearly define and make sure that within the context of the "Catholic" forum, certain "unorthodox" views occationally expressed there, are not mistaken for "Catholic" teaching. This stance, I believe or understand, is meant more for the benefit of those investigating the Faith, or perhaps for marginal Catholics returning to the Church. Its an attempt to prevent confusion about Catholic doctrine. There is plenty of that floating around; I recognize it even operating from my own state of confusion.

I know a few people over there are a bit concerned about the tone of rules, but I think everything will be OK. There can be quite a bit of "wiggle room" if one uses basic common sense when posting.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 23, 2004.

I don't think JFG could be behind the attacks; those attacks even affected the Anarchy forums. The Anarchy folks have theories that somone from within their group was behind it.

Elpidio, I hope your posts do not get deleated. They certainly cannot be mistaken by anyone for being orthodox Catholic teaching. Sometimes when new rules start they get over enforced till people figure out what to do with them.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 23, 2004.

None of my posts could be confused for Catholic teachings...

Yet ed deleted me on a whim because he was mad that he couldn't disprove me.

He is afraid that people might discover the truth about that religion.

Did anyone catch the thread about the *annulments* that the Church passes out like candy? Do they really think they are fooling God? Calling divorce by any other name is still divorce! What a farce!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 23, 2004.

Faith,

I don't think your threads should have been deleated either, but different personalities and different sensitivities always rule the day. But take heart, there's always another... unless you're feeling particularly apocalyptic.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), March 23, 2004.

Jim F.

Many threads disappeared when Chris Butler decided to practice self- censoship. First he deleted the thread's name. later his name and posts in between. In the end, they all got deleted.

He did that after I told Eugene Chavez about Chris Butler's real intentions of creating a Catholic Monarchy. He had posted a Constitution draft in 1999 but no one noticed. He republished it in 2003. I only have some excerpts of it.

He actually advocated the segregation of those not Catholic.

When Emerald began to discuss his points, followed by Rod and Me, Chris Butler folded up the tent.

As a person Chris Butler was open (he only resented David@excite's comments about his stigmata. He used to call him a phony. By the way, he has called me a phony also. But once he thanked me.)

Butler had a good command of Church councils, letters, decisions,...

It is a shame he felt in the end that posting next to heretics should be bad for his draft being presented to the Pope (vatican) for a review.

As for John Gecik. Once he thanked me. More than 20% of his posts, was his criticism directed at me. Another 20% for saints posts. The rest of the forum got his 60%.

There was a thread, God and Satan, which was deleted in January 2004. I think Ed deleted that one because he felt I was offending God by saying he is called Satan in scripture.

I had offered evidence to John Gecik that Satan (he had given the quotations from scripture himself in Hebrew) appeared so many times in the Bible, never referring to God.

I clarified for him that the angel that appeared to Balaam said he was a satan to Ballam, meaning his adversary. In old Testament scriptures the Angel is Called the Angel of Yahweh. Even confused with Yahweh.

The text I also used was that from Samuel , where God opposes david,when compared with chronicles , says that Satan made David number Israel.

Even in Job, Satan is an Angel. He is the prosecuting angel. He is not yet the evil angel we get from the New Testsment and revelation. The word Satan went from meaning adversary to the evil one. The evil one is actualy called Belial (or Mastemah)in the dead sea scrolls , which matches Baazebub (l) in Mark... From Blue Bible commentraies:

1 Strong's Number: 4567 Greek: satanas a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), "an adversary," is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num 22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1Sa 29:4; Psa 38:20; 71:13; four in Ps. 109; (c) of "Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zec 3:1, where the name receives its interpretation, "to be (his) adversary," RV (see marg.; AV, "to resist him"). In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, e.g., Mat 4:10; 12:26; Mar 1:13; 3:23,26; 4:15; Luk 4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; Jhn 13:27; (b) of His people, e.g., Luk 22:31; Act 5:3; Rom 16:20; 1Cr 5:5; 7:5; 2Cr 2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1Th 2:18; 1Ti 1:20; 5:15; Rev 2:9,13 (twice),24; 3:9; (c) of mankind, Luk 13:16; Act 26:18; 2Th 2:9; Rev 12:9; 20:7. His doom, sealed at the Cross is foretold in its stages in Luk 10:18; Rev 20:2,10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Rom 16:20. The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Mat 16:23; Mar 8:33

I regret the deletetion of this thread, Jim

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 23, 2004.

Elpidio,

I do too. I have always looked forward to reading your posts. I will be very surprised if you ever get banned there as you, as far as I can see aways stay within the area of "wiggle room" You don't come of as being antagonistic. You aren't, and it comes through.

I hope my words are tasty in case I have to eat them.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 23, 2004.

Jim, you and Rod have been in coversation with me for a long time.

I know many people judge me for my dreams, but in reality, I am also someone who is searching always for the truth in scripture. I don't rely on dreams for what I believe. The dreams came later.

Some people call it scholarship. Others heresy.

Here is another one for you,

According to Eisenman, Jesus only had 3 brothers: James, Judas, and Simeon. Since only 3 are mentioned by Mark.

The other Gospels mention 4. The fourth one being Joses (or Joseph). Eisenman makes the connection between Jesus (iesous in Greek) and Joses (ioses) to state that they are the same name.

What do you think?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 24, 2004.

Ah! Chris Butler. We got into it over his "Catholic State". He attacked me from the flank while I was always going at him face to face. He finally retreated taking his "manifesto" with him. I think he did it for copyright purposes.

I have posted little remarks about how we are gradually and discreetly losing our freedom of speech and religion. David made fun of my conspiracy theory. Why did Phil help them, but not us? Why David?

Faith-

Do you really believe that it was your debating or your tactics that got you banned? I don't believe that you will ever be banned from this forum, unless you......well, David will say.

Well, the tightening of the Catholic Forum's belt will make forums likes these a little more prolific, don't you think?

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 24, 2004.

I think I was banned because I posted truth. Satan doesn't like that-- and those people were uncomfortable with me.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 24, 2004.

Faith, you were not banned for posting the "truth". You were banned because you posted anti-Catholic theology and doctrine that you were trying to use to "convert" others to your faith. That is the truth of your banning. If you posted 100% truth, you would have a flock of followers and a full collesium of believers. I would be one of your disciples. So, this "truth" you speak of is perhaps your concept, idealogy, faith, or something.

Ah! freedom of speech and religion...

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 24, 2004.

[Insults will not be tolerated on this forum]

-- Larry (Lar@aol.com), March 25, 2004.

Elpidio

Cuando una persona recibe una botella de tequila con un guzano metido, eso quiere decir que le tienen odio a esa persona. Este chavo, Larry, no sabe lo que esta diciendo.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

¿Cuantas botellas enguzanadas tiene Larry?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Larry don't ask for a translation unless you are ready to be embarrassed in public. We'll email you the translation if you require one. Or, you can go online for the translation.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Elpidio

I wonder if Larry is referring to a "worm virus"? I just received a virus warning in my email that a "worm virus" was intercepted and that my email sent out that same virus. Careful.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Elpide,

Why did David the Moderator get banned from Catholic forum? He is very mild mannered it appears to myself.

Did this Chris Butler realy have the stigmatta? This is awsome to read about someone like this. Was he bleeding out of his wrist?

Sometimes you have to be careful with people like this because they make it up for attention. Why did he this guy call him a phony? I would like to meet the stigmatist guy. Who is the Moderator over there that is deleting everyone who doesn't agree?

Luke

-- Luke (Luke@private.please), March 25, 2004.

Luke

If David appears mild mannered, it is because in this forum he is. I believe that most of David's posts were deleted over there, and so was his mannered appearances. They don't ban people for being mildly mannered, do they? But, David can speak for himself.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

That other forum is taking care of business by maintaining the fight for the faith--Catholicism. It reminds me of the time that I had asked--what I thought--was an innocent question in a Jewish forum. I got banned faster than you can say "Hoygen"!

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Thank you Rod. Did you know the guy that bleed from his wrist?

Luke

-- Luke (Luke@private.please), March 25, 2004.

I engaged in a debate/discussion with him before I knew he was a stigmata kind of a guy. I didn't refute his stigmata, but I did argue over his "Catholic State" manifesto. He resorted to putting me down and stuff, I resorted to his manifesto (my label). According to people's description, Butler was some kind of genius or something. He didn't strike me as being "genius", maybe just very assertive and well educated. I never read anything in depth about his stigmata. I too would have loved to know more about him, but that was about the time that he collected his things and left the forum.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Larry, I am not a heavy drinker, but I drink ocassionally, to be happy or relaxed. Paul wrote about getting drunk.

Yes, I drank the tequila with the worm: Mexicans do.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Luke, what David@excite objected to was David Butler's "feelings".

By that I mean, that chris would ask Jesus a question and his body would tell him whether his question was true or false.

He was very articulate.

I am still waiting to see if he published his book on a Constitutional Catholic Monarchy. (That' shis dream, a world dominated by Catholics).

Luke, you and I know from history what happened when we had one. That is what I argued with him in the same thread Emerald and rod did.

Examples of Catholic monarchs(Butler's type): -Charlemagne (crowned 800 AD)- ruled most of Central and southern Europe (killed or coverted last pagans and Arians).

-Charles V (he tried to kill Luther).

Only Constitutional Catholic monarchs today: Juan Carlos de Borbon (Spain).

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 25, 2004.

Elpido,

Why do people in the catholic forum say that Chris Butler deleted many of the threads over in that place. I have my doubts about people that talk of having the stigmata. Most holy people usually try to keep this hidden not talk on the internet so everyone can read.

Where did you learn all that you know from? You are a head of knowledge. I am impressed with you. You can rember every detail so well.

-- Luke G (Luke@private.please), March 26, 2004.

Elpidio. It's our old age. We can't remember where we left our keys, but we know every inch of every word left in every forum we've ever posted in. Uh.......which forum is this??

Yes, Elpidio has tons of knowledge. I bet he is a teacher, too. :{o

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Chris Butler did , as Rod pointed out, to delete any reference to himself or his ideas. He wants to publish a book on his ideas.

Yet, some of his ideas are not orthodox for Catholics: he believes for example that Jesus was older than 40. He was more open to what truth is than other Catholics. He accepted the fact that even Protestants have some truth in them. Catholics tend to send Protestants to Hell, and vice-versa.

I analyze people I am planning to discuss an issue with, Luke.

I use a normal type of speech with you, Jim F, and Biscuits. I use another with Rod, more personal.

With David,Kevin, and Faith, notice I use the translation from the King James. Though I prefer the NIV and the Jerusalem Bibles.One is more vivid. The other uses God's name.

With Ian, James (Stincat), James (El greco), Gail, ...I tend to use the Church Fathers also.

With banned Jeannie I used Lutheran stuff.

That is why I am able to remember more: I get interested in what other people have to say.

You are like me in that respect.

As toi stigmata: I had a student that was itchy. I saw the hands. The student already had scratched both feet and hands. Tis is dome at the pal through the middle. The feet from the top.

This is what I think happens.

A person hets itchy. Scratches himself/herself. The bleed. They get an ifection. If they have weak immune systems or diabetes, they have a harder time to heal. So the would may close for 3-6 days. Then they get itchy again. They scatch themselves. They easily break the thin membrane from the scar tissue.

But I believe Jesus was nailed at the wrists, not through the hands. That's the evidence we get from crucified remains.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Elpido,

I read you over on the catholic forum kicking some but. Those people are no match for a man of your intelligence. You show no fear.

Luke

-- Luke (Luke@private.please), March 26, 2004.

Luke, my grandma used to say:

"Lo cortez no quita lo valiente".

Being polite doesn't mean you are a chicken (not brave).

I was a good Catholic, Luke. I believed like them that Protestants go to Hell.

But the scriptures began to open my eyes.

Jesus never prohibited another man preaching and curing people in his name from preaching. Jesus never gave him a command. Jesus was happy to see that man talking also about the gospel, even if that man was not one of his disciples!!!

John Gecik was a good debater. So is Bill now. They have their own agendas. To make sure the world becomes Catholic. Bill is one step further: the govenment must carry the Catholic agenda.

I know what irritaes a Catholic, so I try to be more subtle in the way I present things.

They hate this. They want to see me as an enemy, but they can.

The Christian Yahwist

The Catholic Yahwist That's is why my belief is now that salvation is open to every one, even for those who rejectec it.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Even the smallest is a great threat when the truth is on his side. So, what is there to fear? Personally, I don't like getting people all haggared out, unless it is really necessary. John and I got along ok and I never felt like things would get bad between us. He was a tough cookie, though.

But, Elpidio, you are one of those tough cookies, too. Never say die!

I hope I get a chance to visit your church one of these days.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Thanks for the help Mr. Elpido. I look forward to learning from you. I can tell you are a good teacher.

Luke

-- Luke (Luke@private.please), March 27, 2004.

Rod, my goal is to make it global this year. Internet based mostly at first.

When the Church went 100% fully trinitarian by 451 AD, the Muslims came into the picture. Muhammad claimed to have received revelations. Muslims now number over 1 billion.

Catholicsm and Islam have been religions by coercion. People were forced to join or else. Catholicsm burned them. Islam chopped their heads.

More than 60 million former Catholics will be members by the time I am 80. More than half will be chinese and Indian (India). These are not my dreams but my wife's and mom's.

Luke, at this forum I have not tried to convert peopleinto my beliefs. God has shown me that people may get to him as long as they are righteous before him. Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, John the baptsist, Jesus, Paul ,Peter, John,James the brother of Jesus,..were all Hebrews,...

There are many Protestants, Roman catholics, Orthodox, ...Which I admire and believe God has called them:

Christians: Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Billy Graham, John Wesley, Knox, Barton Stone,Hans Kung, Mother Teresa, Father Damian, Francis of Assissi, Peter Waldo, Wycliff, Tyndale, Reina, Valera, Tischendorff, Jerome, Origen, Justin, Eusebius, Arius, Jovinian, Helvidius, Bruis, Joan of Arc, Leo I, Hyppolitus, Hegessipus, Francis Xavier, Cyryl Lukar, Williams, Nestorius, Hus,Paul of samosata, Jacob Baradeus,....

Jews: Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Samuel,King David, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hoshea, Josiah, Hezekiah, John the Baptist,Jesus, Peter, Thomas (Judas), James (brother of Jesus), Paul, Mary Magadalene, Mary (mother of Jesus), Phillip,...

Others: Buddha, Mahatma Gandhi, Muhammad, Baha'ullah, Yogananda,...

I believe God calls people to repentance. They don't have to be Christians, either.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.