Jay, a Protestant Fundamentalist, had a flurry of posts at our discussion forum at the Catholic Youth Web Discussion Forum. It was really good since he aroused many of the Young Adults who monitor the forum to think and respond. But Jay made a reference to a web site of a lady who calls herself an ex-nun (actually an ex-novice since she was there for only two years and never made permanent vows). The web site is www.catholicconcerns.com.

I found this site quite intruiging and a bit of an enigma. Instead of setting up a "straw man" of what they say the Catholic Church teaches then knocking it down, she actually knows quite well what the Church teaches are articulates it rather acurately (yes - there are ommisions and wrong conclusions, but it is the most accurate I have found amongst those who attack the Church). I wanted to get the comments of some of the experts in this forum and share the "highlights" with my Young Adults in my forum. I see this as a good exercise to really be able to defend one's faith against rather persuasive arguments.

God bless!

-- Hollis Martinsen (Hollis@nospam.com), March 24, 2004

Answers

Link: Catholic Concerns

-- Hollis (hollis@nospam.com), March 24, 2004.

"she actually knows quite well what the Church teaches are articulates it rather acurately"

A: I must disagree. This person is totally clueless. Everything on her website is just typical fundamentalist misinformation. Much of it is virtually word for word what you would find in publications by Jack Chick or any other writer who is completely ignorant of Catholic teaching and history - and who is also ignorant of the meaning of scripture, having made themselves the sole authority in its interpretation. Pitiful. And sad.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 25, 2004.

Once a Evangelcial was trying to convert me to her religon by listing contradictions of catholicisim against the Bible. I asked her, "Have you ever sinned with your hand?" She replied, "Of course I have." I then said, "So everything in the Bible must be followed word for word then?" to which she replied, "Yes!" Then I said to her, "Then why do you still have your hand, doesn't it say in Matthew 5: 30 if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off?"

She went away, praying for me to be 'saved'...

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), March 25, 2004.

Hollis,

I think the most intriguing one in the set of "arguments" posted at the site is probably the one on the Eucharist. Most of the others seem to be the same old arguments (Constantine started the Roman Catholic Church, the Church added the Apocrypha, etc.), even if presented in a more intellectual fashion. Not all of them are written by the "ex-nun" (ex-novice) by the way.

If you read the argument against the Real Presence posted there, you'll see the author begins with the conclusion (the Eucharist is just symbolic) and then interprets Scripture to back it up. It's interesting to see the ways he does it.

I've seen two types of anti-Catholics on the internet. Those who are intellectually dishonest in order to denigrate the Church and proselytize (e.g., Chick Publications). And those who are intellectually honest, and either end up converting or stubbornigly stick to their belief system by interpreting Scripture and history through the beliefs they already have. I always grow more in faith wrestling with the arguments of the latter, becuase they at least try to present the Church's real teachings, even if their conclusions are wrong.

Thanks for sending this link our way. In our discussions with anti- Catholics I'm sure we'll see all of these again.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 25, 2004.

I thought some of her arguments were thought-provoking, especially about the popes and forged documents--are there any Catholic sites that argue against her word for word?

My biggest problem with what she had to say concerned her referring to herself as a former nun. She is/was analogous to someone going through but not completing boot camp referring to him/herself as a Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine--NOT! Yes, you may look like one to people who don't know any better, but you are not entitiled to refer to yourself as one until you have completed your training and taken your oath of service. I give more credence to the stories of the nuns who spent significant time in convents. At least they gave their convent life a chance, Mary Ann Collins did not.

I found her "mind control" statements laughable. You can make a person change their outward behaviors if they truly need to do so to avoid pain, but you *can't* change what they think. She just stopped short of calling the Church a cult. To me, one hallmark of a cult is that they will not let you just get up and leave--I don't notice anyone forcing anyone to go to Mass.....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), March 25, 2004.

Gail,

She seems to be using the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals to refute the papacy's Chuirch authority and imply that any claim on church authority lies in these forged or some other forged documents. From what I read, the forged documents all mentioned came from the ninth century. These documents also push papal secular authority. There are a couple problems with the tract.

1. Papal claims to church authority are not solely dependent on these forged documents. There are legitimate documents from the early church fathers (not based on the faorged documents) that demonstrate the authority of Rome. See Stephen Ray's book Upon This Rock.

2. The Pope is really out of the secular authority business and only got into it to fill the vacuum that was left when the western Roman Empire fell apart.

Even the Webster's writeup that Collins points us to doesn't change these facts.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 25, 2004.

GT..one of the best online sites I have ever seen is that of Dave Armstrong..Unfortunately, I have a neurological illness which makes reading URLs very difficult for me..arghhgg!!! I was able to pull the site up from my "favorites " list, and finally read all of the various letters. slashes, etc..but I cannot find one of the symbols on my keyboard..it's like a hyphen, but "squiggly" if that makes any sense at all to anybody else!!!! So in the hope that other people will take OUT the hyphen and insert the wavy, squiggly line instead, LOL..here's the online address..scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page and be prepared to spend HOURS reading all of his various articles..http://ic.net/-erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM (remember, the hyphen is wrong)..

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), March 26, 2004.

Curiosity led me to visit catholicconcerns, kowing beforehand what I was going to find. I've had all through my life the experience of talking to anti-Catholics and I know by heart the attacks they make to the Catholic Church. I found nothing new in catolicconcerns. But one the first things in sight is that the pretended ex-nun immediatly invites you to buy her book.

Do you notice how anti-Catholic literature has become a fad these days? Take for instance the Da Vinci Code and a while ago the books by Malachi Martin. So an easy way to become rich is to say that you left the Catholic Church a short time ago and write a book repeating what has already been said and written by other people, changing a little thing here, another one there and bingo! you become a bestselling author and a rich person to boot.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Lesley,

Thanks for pointing us toward Dave Armstrong's site. It's a good one. He has some good dialogues with anti-Catholics.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 26, 2004.

lesley,

the hyphen that is "a squiggly" is actually called a tilde, its used on computer programing alot to denote... eh, well, that parts not interesting.

what IS interesting, or at least useful to you anyway, is the fact that on most keyboards it is located above the tab key (left of the number 1). you most likely have to push shift to get it though.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 26, 2004.

Paul H..THANK YOU SO MUCH..with this disease, my eyes often just do not function well at ALL..I must have looked at this keyboard 40 times this morning with my magnifying glass in hand and didn't see that thing..LOL..now there it IS, plain as day, right where you said it would be..!!!!!!

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), March 26, 2004.