this is all a load of crap!!! i feel sorry for all you crazy people who actully beleive in this BS. sorry for intruding and writing totally unnessary messages but its just realy sad how stupid you all are. have any of you ever even heard of evoultion, its a proven fact!!How about looking up "science" in the dictionary?

-- never (never@none.come), March 26, 2004

Answers

First of all, if you believe evolution is a proven fact, you are grossly undereducated on the subject. Secondly, how does the Christian religion conflict with science and the THEORY of evolution? Remember, Darwin and Gallileo were devout Christians. Most of the world's leading evolutionary biologists do not claim that evolution is absolute fact or claim that the Bible is wrong.

-- J Biscuits (thefilthohgodthefilth@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Evolution in the Darwinian sense is a complete myth. It cannot tell us how life originated, though many people are under the impression that it does.

If Evolution is true--it cannot be seen in a laboratory setting as it takes purported eons of time to occur--therefore it does not even qualify as a true science.

It should be replaced under the topic of philosophy and Creation Science should be offered as an alternative possibility--and our children should be allowed to do comparative studies and determine for themselves which *therory* best describes the evidence left to us in the earth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Yes evolution is only a theory, but a very dangerous one. Evolution is basically the teaching that leads to racism and mass murders in the world. Don't believe me?

Look at Darwin's book. It's the "Origin of Species" right? Actually, the entire name is "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Perservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." Most public libraries tend to leave off the second half of the title, and for good reason.

Many Nazi officers will tell that evolution and it's relation to superior races was the basic teaching they received during their military training. Hilter & Co. murdered thousands because of this.

Remember Jeffery Dahlmer. He was the canabalistic serial killer. He also accepted the theory of evolution as proven fact. One important comment he made was this:(paraphrase) It is pointless to modify behavior if there is no God to be accountable to.

As sick as he was, he did have one thing right. To follow evolution means that there is no such thing as right and wrong. Even the supposed inalienable rights (given by God) do not exist.

I don't know if Darwin was a devote christian like Biscuit said. Perhaps we could compare him to Luther. Christian foundation, but perhaps antichristian attitude toward a certain group of people or ideas. It really doesn't matter. The theories of Darwin and other evolutionists have become the fundamental teachings of the worlds sickest people.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Faith wrote:

"...-and our children should be allowed to do comparative studies and determine for themselves which *therory* best describes the evidence left to us in the earth. "

1. well, which is it? Evolution or Creationism? If you don't believe in evolution, why teach it?

2. We cannot let our children determine for themselves, that's why we teach: school and church. We have a responsibility to our children to guide them correctly, not a free for all society.

3. The "evidence" left behind may not be here anymore. Somethings still can't be proven. That's why we have faith.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I believe that man has his science in order to explain God's creation. I also believe that "never" owes God an apology for calling His works "crap". "Never" may not believe in God, but that doesn't allow his filthy words towards God.

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Well..,rod---

Since I would never get my way and abolish the myth of evolution from our schools altoether., the next best thing is to offer an alternative for our kids.

Teaching evolution as fact and not offering to our children the fact that there are other (just as viable) theories out there--is to dictate to them.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

"I believe that man has his science in order to explain God's creation."

in an nutshell, Rod, bravo.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 26, 2004.

Adolf Hitler never mentioned evolution (Entwicklung) in the Darwinian sense. In Mein Kampf, he refered to Entwicklung as in personal evolution.

To list off murderers who believed in evolution is not something I would recomend doing. That invites another to list off the millions of lives brutally ended in the name of Christ, and that would be counterproductive.

-- J Biscuits (thefilthpogodthefilth@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

Huh? Fatih what are you talking about??

Thanks, Ian. Like I mentioned earlier, we are all mixed nuts. :)

J Biscuits makes a fine point there with the flipside view. Yes, one could argue against Christianity by naming some atrocities. So, it may not necessarily be the science/religion, but the interpretations of those basis'. Hmm...interesting.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I have spoken (corresponded) with strong Catholics about Evolution. It became quite clear that if Evolution is a real thing, Evolution was made to work by God. It wouldn't shatter the faith if Evolution did play some role, but not 100%, in all that exists in time and space.

For those who believe in the Virgin Birth, does Evolution have anything to do with it? We would have to look at it from a Divine Source, not from Darwin's view. When Moses manifested his rod into serpents, was that too some kind of Divine Evolution?

Well, Evolution still means the changing of one thing to another over time and circumstances. The arguement for me is if the thing "mutated" or "modulated". This is pretty much like witnessing/experiencing miracles. "Evolution", again, is just a way of explaining things to people who have a hard time believing in God, I suppose.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

You are very close rod. The theory of evolution is like a religion in that it can't be proven and it requires faith to believe it.

I guess it boils down to pride, and who you want to put your faith in..God or man?

There is no way that Evolution, in the Darwinian sense, can be harmonized with the Word of God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

The problem, Faith, is when we accept Genesis (first 6 chapters) as history.

Just for your info: Genesis is the story about Joseph and his family. So either Joseph or one of his sons wrote it. Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham referred to God as El. Even the mythical priest Melchizedeq, also famous in psalm 110, was a priest for El.

It is when Moses gets his revelation, that God is now known as Yahweh. So Genesis ch. 1-6 were not originally part of Genesis. God is called Yahweh.It could not have been since God is called El.

Thus, the story of creation was inserted there during the Babylonian captivity:605-538 B.C.

How do I know that? Ezekiel is called Son of Adam!!!!

(Only Deuteronomy has it, but Deuterono my was finally edited during Josiah's time. It was the famous book of the Law that Huldah the prophetess said was legit. So this quote is no earlier than 620 B.C.

Deu 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam,

So, in conclusion, the Bible (Genesis 1-6)is no historical.

This makes sense.

Why? Because that's the way God Yahweh works.

We are from Earth (Adam=red earth=clay). In order to live on Earth, we had to adapt to Earth.

If we look at the fetal stage of higher animals, we are all the same: rabits,whales,humas,cows, elephants,fish,turtles,...: we have a tail, (just like our sperm), our heads are bigger, we have elongated bodies.

This shows that in the beginning, God created us for a water environment until he decide what else to do.

That is also why we don't descend from monkeys. God made that change in that lttle tadpole to become the humas we are today. But it had to be done right.

It also makes sense why we are one of God's last creations: writing, either pictographic or written is not that old.

We also are the weakest species: ourl children will die if we leave them.

We evoluted Good's way.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh The word Adam is not found in

Moses

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

No Elpidio.., this does not make sense.

You are way out there in left field., in case you hadn't noticed.

I don't even know where to begin with this stuff!!

Ridiculous...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Faith, try living in Mars, the moon, ....without a space suit.

You can't.

You are not a Martian, a selenian (from the moon in Greek),... you are an Earthling.

If God is a Spirit, then the Spirit has to materialize, right?

Otherwise, it cannot taste the water,the herbs, smell the roses, feel the wind,....the same way we do.

We are created in God's image Faith, but in such a way, to live on Earth.

That is why we cannot see God, because God Yahweh's body is adapted to the Spirit World, not to our World.

If we were to see him, most likely he would portray himself the way we imagine him to be, not the way he is.

Otherwise, he would scare the...hairs off your head.

God Yahweh only allowed me to see his radiant figure (just like seeing a shadow)without too much not in detail.

Maybe one day he will allow me to see him as he truly is.

Why, because I am not afraid to see him as he is. But most likely before I die. I don't hink he wants the secret out.

Th Christian Yahwist

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

There is ample evidence to show evolutionary adaption within a species The therory that one species begits greater ones is a theory.

From cause and effect, scientists cannot explain the cause of the big bang or how the matter got there. They also cannot disprove G- D!

That being said if there was never a refromation, we still would be close to the dark ages, with scietific discoveries being blocked. If Luther was not born there would probably have been another form of refromation. When one man-The Pope is the direct agent of the Lord then that does not allow for different religious interpretation. I think that Protestanism is evolution within a species of religion. This country would not have been formed had England not broken away from the Catholic Church. Not that it matters but I am a deitiest, as many of the founding fathers were.

-- WD Fard (****@groups.msn.com), March 27, 2004.

Hello people ,

I've got a question , I put it here in this thread !!

What I don't understand ,

why religious channels are always FTA (Free To Air) ??

Why they are not encrypted , how do they get their money ,

like Pay-TV , such as DirecTV , they offer them for free !!

But a lot of The News channels are encrypted , I don't get it !!

They are important , with useful information for the crowd !!

http://www.lyngsat.com/freetv/United-States.shtml Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 27, 2004.

Hello people ,

I've got a question , I put it here in this thread !!

What I don't understand ,

why religious channels are always FTA (Free To Air) ??

Why they are not encrypted , how do they get their money ,

like Pay-TV , such as DirecTV , they offer them for free !!

But a lot of The News channels are encrypted , I don't get it !!

They are important , with useful information for the crowd !!

http://www.lyngsat.com/freetv/United-States.shtml

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 27, 2004.

WD Faard..,

The Bible speaks about variation within a species...things growing and changing out of its own kind. God probably only created a few types of dogs for example--but through God's design, dogs have varied in time.

That is a far cry from the claimof evolution--that says dinosaurs evolved into birds, for example. Or that man evolved from fish--

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Let me make one historical point very clear.

The Spaniards were already in America before the Pilgrims who maintained their Protestant behavior and faith. And, those Spaniards were.....well, Catholic.

Also:

Look at the mess of a religion they instituted in American (the Protestants). Ambiguity and freedom for all kind of got things all spaghettied, which has evolved into the chaos we have today. Splintered denominations and New Age Religions, just beautiful!

Plus:

If anyone spends any time with the Pilgrims' Bible--The Geneva Bible-one will understand the lack of education used to make that version of a book.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Believe what you want rod..,

The truth is that it was the pilgrims desire to freely worship the God of the Bible, out from underneath the control of Catholicism-- that led these people to seek a new land.

The people who founded this country were by and large--protestant. There was no freedom under Roman rule or the Catholic Church.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Believe what you want rod..,

Thank you, Faith.

The truth is that it was the pilgrims desire to freely worship the God of the Bible, out from underneath the control of Catholicism-- that led these people to seek a new land.

Perhaps there is some truth mixed with confusion about the Pilgrims. But, we must remember that these Pilgrims were settling on land that already belonged to other people. And, that freedom did open the door to "new" doctrines and theologies. Are you saying that it didn't, Faith?

The people who founded this country were by and large--protestant. There was no freedom under Roman rule or the Catholic Church.

I think that you are probably referring to persecution. But, what kind of Roman rule are you talking about? These Protestants were simply against the Church; they had their Church of England by this time, no?

It is peculiar that you didn't answer to my facts, Faith. How do you explain that splintered Protestant movement in America, if you can't pin it on the first Protestants who settle in America? The Catholics discovered America don't forget.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Not trying to understate wrongs that were perpetrated by "both" sides during the Reformation, but I think the Puritans came here more in response to a perception that the The Church of England was corrupt and impure....they had developed ideas that were in opposition to the Anglican Church.

Puritans were not known to be very tolerant of those with differing beliefs within their own group. You pretty much had to leave or believe.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 27, 2004.

Thanks, Jim.

So, we can't really pin things on one factor; there were numerous reasons for the New World exodus by these oppressed people. To say that the Catholic Church was the blame for the move would be only one facet of the stimuli.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

We still have the problem of a multi-faceted faith system in America stemming from the early Protestants/Puritans and the government they instituted. Why didn't America remain Puritan? Why did it splinter? Why the Quakers, Shakers, and subsequent cults?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Catholics and Protestants alike came here to escape persecution. Some came here looking for a better life or to make money. THere was quite a bit of religious intolerance within groups that tried to co-exist here. Puritans drove Quakers out of their areas. Pennsylvania was set up as an place for religious freedom so many went there. Baltimore was a safe haven for Catholics. A real mixed bag.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), March 27, 2004.

You ignore that the Catholic Church is every bit a part of all the splintering that has gone on. I mean--what is the reformation about? Protesting Rome! What was the great schism about? protesting Rome..etc.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Ok, let's include that idea, too. Where does this put all of the faith systems in America--mass confusion??

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

My reason for voicing these questions and issues if simple.

God wants us together in faith. Somehow, all of these splits must have some common piece of rope to hang on to. There must be a personal reason for people to be of different denominations. Elpidio has alluded to this, so I'm not saying anything new here. It does seem like a paradox that we are all believers, yet we have different systems. So, how do people become one in God's family? I don't believe it is in man's nature to conform quite that easily.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Well rod---

I think it proves that Christ's true church is none of the earthly established religions.

Christ said that His church cannot be divided. Yet--that is all we have.

The logical conclusion is to recognize that Christ's church is not of this world.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Abstract?!

Then why even bother at all with these faith systems? They are all in vain. No, God gave us a Church here on earth. He also sent us His Son as proof. His Kingdom is among us and one day we shall be in Heaven.

.....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

His kingdom is in our hearts for now. His body of believers is growing and multiplying like a mustard seed. But His kingdom won't be established physically until Christ returns for us.

The reason we are to gather in local churches and worship Him is because God wants us to do this. It is in the Bible. But the Bible has no teaching of some hierarchy ruling Church that we must all bow down to.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

To be sure, Jim, what is the greatest grievance in the body of Christ, are Christians persecuting Christians.

How this must grieve the heart of our Lord!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 27, 2004.

Gail..,

You are aware of the horrific persecution that even the Catholic Church is guilty of, right?

Just about every religion is guilty of this.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "But His kingdom won't be established physically until Christ returns for us."

Do you really believe that the kingdom of God is not here on the earth at this time???

If you answer yes, please provider scriptural references to show that the kingdom of God is for the future and not the present.

Is the kingdom of God a "physical" kingdom???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 27, 2004.

I believe that the Bible reveals that the kingdom is now here., but that it is a spiritual reality that exists in the hearts of all believers. These believers do compose the Body of Christ..,but we are not established yet.

Jesus knows who we are, and he will return for us in the last days...and we will be raised--the dead in Christ first, then those believers who are alive at that time--and we will meet Him in the air and be forever with Him. (Thess. chapt.4 and 5)) Then, when Christ returns to the earth at His second coming--we will be with Him, riding on white horses and wearing fine lined--white and clean (Rev. 19:14). After Christ conqueres all the earthly kingdoms with His Word... (Rev 19:15) he will reign a thousand years....and after that-- he will establish His kingdom on earth-- a renewed earth (Rev 21), which will be heaven.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith & Kevin

other that that you appear to despise Catholics, is there anything that you have in common??

you are always fighting.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 27, 2004.

Lol!!

Ian??

Kevin and I have never really posted much together--before today.

I usually agree with him, and I hardly think we are fighting with each other.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "I believe that the Bible reveals that the kingdom is now here., but that it is a spiritual reality that exists in the hearts of all believers. These believers do compose the Body of Christ..,but we are not established yet."

Yes, the word of God does state the the kingdom of God is now here on this earth, contrary to what most denominations teach. Most of them teach that the kingdom of God is in the future and will come when Jesus returns. This is not supported by the word of God.

What do you mean by your statement, "but we are not established yet"??

You wrote, "Jesus knows who we are, and he will return for us in the last days...and we will be raised--the dead in Christ first, then those believers who are alive at that time--and we will meet Him in the air and be forever with Him. (Thess. chapt.4 and 5)).

Yes, this is true, but what will happen to the earth when Jesus returns???

You wrote, "Then, when Christ returns to the earth at His second coming--we will be with Him, riding on white horses and wearing fine lined--white and clean (Rev. 19:14)."

Where is it mentioned in the New Testament that Christ will return to the earth when He comes again???

You wrote, "After Christ conqueres all the earthly kingdoms with His Word... (Rev 19:15) he will reign a thousand years....and after that-- he will establish His kingdom on earth-- a renewed earth (Rev 21), which will be heaven."

Faith, there is no mention that this 1,000 years is literal. Please look at all of the symbolism used in that chapter and you will see that this 1,000 CANNOT be literal. Christ is conquering ALL of the earthly kingdoms TODAY, right now with His word. Christ is reigning now, and when he returns, it will be for judgment, and NOT to reign 1,000 years as you have been taught. Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and Hebrews 9:27-28.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

What a load of crap indeed!!! Their are still a few real scientists who actually feel that creationism is science, as this statement shows,

"Out of the approximately 13,000,000 scientists and engineers in the US alone, less than 5% (some 600,000) are creationists, according to Gallup poll results. However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory [Robinson, 1995]. This means that less than 0.15% of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that's just the US, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1%. Additionally, many scientific organizations believe the evidence so strongly that they have issued public statements to that effect [NCSE, n.d.]. The National Academy of Sciences, one of the most prestigious science organizations, devotes a website to the topic [NAS, 1999]. A panel of 72 Nobel Laureates, 17 state academies of science, and 7 other scientific organizations created an amicus curiae brief which they submitted to the Supreme Court [Edwards v. Aguillard, 1986]. This report clarified what makes science different from religion and why creationism isn't science. Note that there are no creationist Nobel Laureates."

It is too bad for the US that so many beilievers in cretinism still exist, and the more troubling problem are schools who would rather teach unprovable, untestable "creation 'science'" in schools, thus making their children less capable of competing globally in technical and scientific fields.

-- F. Phelps (fundy_fred@hotmail.com), March 28, 2004.

Dear Mr. Phelps..

Perhaps top start with, you ought to find out just *what is creation science" before you trash it as a religion. It is not a religion and I would also point out that *evolution* is not a science.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "I believe that the Bible reveals that the kingdom is now here., but that it is a spiritual reality that exists in the hearts of all believers. These believers do compose the Body of Christ..,but we are not established yet."

Yes, the word of God does state the the kingdom of God is now here on this earth, contrary to what most denominations teach. Most of them teach that the kingdom of God is in the future and will come when Jesus returns. This is not supported by the word of God.

What do you mean by your statement, "but we are not established yet"??

I simply mean that we are not a physical church or institution-- like the Roman Catholic Church, or something like that. We exist as the body of Christ physically--but we are all over the place (universal), not found in any one earthly church or religion.

You wrote, "Jesus knows who we are, and he will return for us in the last days...and we will be raised--the dead in Christ first, then those believers who are alive at that time--and we will meet Him in the air and be forever with Him. (Thess. chapt.4 and 5)).

Yes, this is true, but what will happen to the earth when Jesus returns??? He will rule it with an iron sceptor and reign a thousand years. The people who will live in that time are the people who come out of the Tribulation period. And I believe the church will reign with Jesus. People will have a chance to receive Christ--though many will not. This is just an idea that I get from reading the Scriptures--but I realize that this theology could be wrong.

You wrote, "Then, when Christ returns to the earth at His second coming--we will be with Him, riding on white horses and wearing fine lined--white and clean (Rev. 19:14)."

Where is it mentioned in the New Testament that Christ will return to the earth when He comes again???

I believe that two very different comings are described, though I can't be sure of the exact time frame. But Thessalonians tells us that Christ will come like a theif in the night.., taking believers out of the picture. Compare that to the description of His second coming when He rides in on the clouds with an army and that every eye sees Him and will bow down. How can we be here on earth to be raised by Christ--and be riding in on the clouds with him at the same time? I just think that Thessalonians 4 describes the Rapture of the church, which can happen moments before he returns on the clouds--or even years beforehand.

You wrote, "After Christ conqueres all the earthly kingdoms with His Word... (Rev 19:15) he will reign a thousand years....and after that-- he will establish His kingdom on earth-- a renewed earth (Rev 21), which will be heaven."

Faith, there is no mention that this 1,000 years is literal. Please look at all of the symbolism used in that chapter and you will see that this 1,000 CANNOT be literal. Christ is conquering ALL of the earthly kingdoms TODAY, right now with His word. Christ is reigning now, and when he returns, it will be for judgment, and NOT to reign 1,000 years as you have been taught. Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7- 10, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and Hebrews 9:27-28.

Well., I appreciate your opinion Kevin--however, there are many different thoughts on the matter. I can't say for sure--but it doesn't seem like now is the thousand year reign of Christ--far from it actually. His reign, according to Scripture--will be in a peaceful world, where Satan is bound for the time. This time doesn't seem to fit that description

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "I simply mean that we are not a physical church or institution-- like the Roman Catholic Church, or something like that. We exist as the body of Christ physically--but we are all over the place (universal), not found in any one earthly church or religion."

How can your statement be true that the church is "not found in any one earthly church or religion", especially when Jesus says in Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" How can there be Christians in different churches when Jesus CLEARLY states that there is ONE faith, and NOT many as you state??? Is Christ divided??

I wrote, "Yes, this is true, but what will happen to the earth when Jesus returns???"

To which you replied, "He will rule it with an iron sceptor and reign a thousand years. The people who will live in that time are the people who come out of the Tribulation period. And I believe the church will reign with Jesus. People will have a chance to receive Christ--though many will not. This is just an idea that I get from reading the Scriptures--but I realize that this theology could be wrong."

Yes, Faith your theology is wrong for there is NO mention in the NT that Jesus will return to this earth NOR is there any mention that people will have a second chance to be saved. The fact of the matter is, Christ reigns NOW and Christians reign NOW with Christ. (1 Corintians 15:25, Revelation 5:9-10). We are kings and priests NOW - Revelation 1:6. NOW is the day of salvation. (2 Corinthians 6:2).

I wrote, "Where is it mentioned in the New Testament that Christ will return to the earth when He comes again???"

To which you replied, "I believe that two very different comings are described, though I can't be sure of the exact time frame. But Thessalonians tells us that Christ will come like a theif in the night.., taking believers out of the picture. Compare that to the description of His second coming when He rides in on the clouds with an army and that every eye sees Him and will bow down. How can we be here on earth to be raised by Christ--and be riding in on the clouds with him at the same time? I just think that Thessalonians 4 describes the Rapture of the church, which can happen moments before he returns on the clouds--or even years beforehand."

Faith, there is NO MENTION of two separate comings of Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as a "rapture of the church" as you have been led to believe for the word of God states, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10).

I wrote, "Faith, there is no mention that this 1,000 years is literal. Please look at all of the symbolism used in that chapter and you will see that this 1,000 CANNOT be literal. Christ is conquering ALL of the earthly kingdoms TODAY, right now with His word. Christ is reigning now, and when he returns, it will be for judgment, and NOT to reign 1,000 years as you have been taught. Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7- 10, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and Hebrews 9:27-28."

To which you replied, "Well., I appreciate your opinion Kevin--however, there are many different thoughts on the matter. I can't say for sure--but it doesn't seem like now is the thousand year reign of Christ--far from it actually. His reign, according to Scripture--will be in a peaceful world, where Satan is bound for the time. This time doesn't seem to fit that description"

No Faith, that is NOT my opinion, that is what the word of God CLEARLY states. The devil has been bound already by Jesus for the apostle Paul stated in Colossians 2:15, "Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." Satan is bound by us every time someone OBEYS THE GOSPEL for this is exactly what Luke 8:11-15 states.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "I simply mean that we are not a physical church or institution-- like the Roman Catholic Church, or something like that. We exist as the body of Christ physically--but we are all over the place (universal), not found in any one earthly church or religion." How can your statement be true that the church is "not found in any one earthly church or religion", especially when Jesus says in Ephesians 4:4-5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" How can there be Christians in different churches when Jesus CLEARLY states that there is ONE faith, and NOT many as you state??? Is Christ divided??

The only way that Christ's church as he describes it can exist--is spiritually in the hearts of all believers. I say this because clearly all earthly religions are divided. There is One faith--and Christ is *not* divided. All who believe the gospel of Christ and have received Him--belong to Him. We are His body.

I wrote, "Yes, this is true, but what will happen to the earth when Jesus returns???"

To which you replied, "He will rule it with an iron sceptor and reign a thousand years. The people who will live in that time are the people who come out of the Tribulation period. And I believe the church will reign with Jesus. People will have a chance to receive Christ--though many will not. This is just an idea that I get from reading the Scriptures--but I realize that this theology could be wrong."

Yes, Faith your theology is wrong for there is NO mention in the NT that Jesus will return to this earth NOR is there any mention that people will have a second chance to be saved. The fact of the matter is, Christ reigns NOW and Christians reign NOW with Christ. (1 Corintians 15:25, Revelation 5:9-10). We are kings and priests NOW - Revelation 1:6. NOW is the day of salvation. (2 Corinthians 6:2).

Yes, I agree that our salvation is now. Christ's church grows and believers are being added daily.

The New Testament does mention a time when Christ returns to this earth. In Revelation 19 verse 19 I read that John sees the beast and the kings of the earth gathered together to make war with the rider on the horse and his army--whom we see a few verses earlier "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean" verse 13-14.

That is Jesus with His church...

I wrote, "Where is it mentioned in the New Testament that Christ will return to the earth when He comes again???"

To which you replied, "I believe that two very different comings are described, though I can't be sure of the exact time frame. But Thessalonians tells us that Christ will come like a theif in the night.., taking believers out of the picture. Compare that to the description of His second coming when He rides in on the clouds with an army and that every eye sees Him and will bow down. How can we be here on earth to be raised by Christ--and be riding in on the clouds with him at the same time? I just think that Thessalonians 4 describes the Rapture of the church, which can happen moments before he returns on the clouds--or even years beforehand."

Faith, there is NO MENTION of two separate comings of Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as a "rapture of the church" as you have been led to believe for the word of God states, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up." (2 Peter 3:10).

Well like I said--there are different opinions as to what this all means. I personally cannot see that Thess.4-5 is the same thing as Rev 19 and 20--where we clearly see Jesus' return is anything but quiet.

I wrote, "Faith, there is no mention that this 1,000 years is literal. Please look at all of the symbolism used in that chapter and you will see that this 1,000 CANNOT be literal. Christ is conquering ALL of the earthly kingdoms TODAY, right now with His word. Christ is reigning now, and when he returns, it will be for judgment, and NOT to reign 1,000 years as you have been taught. Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7- 10, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 and Hebrews 9:27-28."

To which you replied, "Well., I appreciate your opinion Kevin-- however, there are many different thoughts on the matter. I can't say for sure--but it doesn't seem like now is the thousand year reign of Christ--far from it actually. His reign, according to Scripture--will be in a peaceful world, where Satan is bound for the time. This time doesn't seem to fit that description"

No Faith, that is NOT my opinion, that is what the word of God CLEARLY states. The devil has been bound already by Jesus for the apostle Paul stated in Colossians 2:15, "Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." Satan is bound by us every time someone OBEYS THE GOSPEL for this is exactly what Luke 8:11-15 states.

Doesn't the Bible describe the binding of Satan after the Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble)--after the wrath of God and His judgements..the seven seals and bowls?? Doesn't God need to destroy the apostate church--Mystery Babylon first? And doesn't that all happen after the temple is rebuilt for the third time and the antichrist has already been revealed??

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

"Perhaps top start with, you ought to find out just *what is creation science" before you trash it as a religion. It is not a religion and I would also point out that *evolution* is not a science. "

Evolution is a part of science, not scinece itself. Science is skeptical and always asks why. That is how something like evolution comes about, not the dogmatic, childish, blind acceptance of an antiquated book of fables and morality stories.

Creation "Science" is a weird, contived, system that throw out evidence when it disagrees with the "bible".

That evolution occurs is indeed a fact, and is now labeled such. No scientist doubts this. But the mechanics of how ans why it occurs are still a theory, and that is he only thoery left in evolution.

It is a lie to state that evolution cannot be observed, because it has.

It is a lie to say that evolution has no praticle use, because if you ever seek treatment for cancer you will be utilizing the findings from the employment of evolutionary theories and facts in science, so you would be best to follow your beliefs and encourage friends not to seek medical treatment for cancer-ever. You will be a hypacrit if you do.

It is a lie to say that evolutionis not the unifying theory of the biological sciences. Ask any biologistor biological student who has taken upper division classes and they will tell you.

Evolution is real and is part of the very same science that makes it possible for me to type this message. If you are really true to your "beliefs", then why do you take advantage of this same science you so readily denounce?

-- F Phelps (fundy_fred@jack_chick.com), March 28, 2004.

You are truly confused.

Denying the theory of evolution is hardly an example of someone rejecting science. Don't forget that it is Christianity that made science a practical reality.

Creation science is not a study of the Bible., it is a study of the same physical evidence left to un in this earth that the evolutionist studies.

The difference is in the questions we ask about what we see.

Evolution cannot be observed or tested in a scientific laboratory any mre than creation. Evolution, in the *vertical* sense--that is-- "macroevolution," transmutation of one type of organism into a more complex type of organism--cannot be observed, even if it were true, since it presumably takes an immense span of time. No such instance of macroevolution has ever been observed, in all recorded history, by any human being.

Therefore--if creation is excluded from science because it cannot be observed., then so should evolution be excluded for the same reason.

An example of how creation science would work is this..,

Lets take the fossil record for an example. The creation model says that everything was created...that people were created., exactly as we are today.

The evolution model says that people evolved slowly and sort of came from something else...fish to apes to man--or something to that effect.

So then we look at the fossil record which should tell us which theory is true. If evolution occurred--we shoul;d see many transitional fossils and a trail of ourselves from fish to man. If creation is true--then our fossils should appear suddenly in the rock layers with no transitional fossils.

Now I know scientists have been looking desperately for these transitional fossils--and there have been some hopeful monsters--but these have turned out to be nothing more than hoaxes.

In fact, the fossil record supports the notion of creation far better than it supports the notion of evolution.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

great job with the facts phelps, we should get this site to put up an atheist board it should generate some intersting conversastion as long as we have people like you and me there unlike here where i only got about 3-4 valid replies but im amazed at how much conversation that post generated after only two days i will be contacting the site moderators in hopes i can get an atheist board started and anyone agreeing with me please do the same although i think saying this here it will create more oppisition im intrested in seeing what they will decide. BTW evolution is a PROVEN FACT and i never said anything about darwin although he did have many great, eventually proven theories too and his "awards" are great too.

-- never (none@never.com), March 28, 2004.

Great ideas, never. But, instead of an atheist thread, why not a "monkey" thread for all of you devout Evolution Theory fanatics/believers?

The problem with Evolution believers is that they deny the probability that God is the source of that catalyst. It doesn't bother me if Evolution is a "fact". You monkeys still have the problem of finding its Source. Unless, you all believe in randomness and accidents....or would that be friends and relatives?

All in fun, of course.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

BTW, "never" please make some sort of acknowledgement towards God and your poor behavior towards Him. You need to stop with your blashemous style and conform to some sembles of respect towards God. Then, maybe begin showing some respect for the rest of us. Or, leave.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

Oops....."blasphemous".

Moderator can something be done with the email addresses? The language is less than appropriate on some threads.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "The only way that Christ's church as he describes it can exist--is spiritually in the hearts of all believers. I say this because clearly all earthly religions are divided. There is One faith--and Christ is *not* divided. All who believe the gospel of Christ and have received Him--belong to Him. We are His body."

No Faith, what you state CANNOT be true if there are different religions and different faiths. Yes, there is ONE body of Christ and it does NOT exist as you state "spiritually in the hearts of all believers". If this is indeed the case, where are your scriptural references to back up this claim???

There is ONE church and No, it is NOT spiritual, but does exist on this earth and No, it is NOT the Catholic Church for this corrupt institution has never been the True church that Jesus built. Jesus prayed for the UNITY of all believers in John 17:20, and that UNITY is in the church that Jesus built, the church of Christ.

You wrote, "Yes, I agree that our salvation is now. Christ's church grows and believers are being added daily."

Yes, believers are being added daily to the church, but NOT those who believe only are added to the church, it is those who OBEY the gospel that are added to the Lord's church.

You wrote, "The New Testament does mention a time when Christ returns to this earth. In Revelation 19 verse 19 I read that John sees the beast and the kings of the earth gathered together to make war with the rider on the horse and his army--whom we see a few verses earlier "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean" verse 13-14."

No Faith, you are indeed mistaken for none of these verses that you mentioned speak of Jesus being on the earth. Jesus does NOT need to be on the earth to fight for us for we have our weapon and that is the word of God. The apostle Paul explained this to the church at Corinth when he said in 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God," and Paul also exorted the church at Ephesus in Ephesians 6:10-17, "Finally, my brethren, be STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT. Put on the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with TRUTH, having put on the BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the GOSPEL OF PEACE; above all, taking the SHIELD OF FAITH with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the HELMET OF SALVATION, and the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD;"

The weapons of our warfare are the WORD OF GOD exactly as the apostle Paul stated above. This is TRULY "Jesus with His church"!!!

You wrote, "Well like I said--there are different opinions as to what this all means. I personally cannot see that Thess.4-5 is the same thing as Rev 19 and 20--where we clearly see Jesus' return is anything but quiet."

I never said that Jesus return would be quiet. I also did not say anything about Thess. 4-5 ??? being the same thing as Rev 19 and 20. Was this a typo on your part perhaps?

You wrote, "Doesn't the Bible describe the binding of Satan after the Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble)--after the wrath of God and His judgements..the seven seals and bowls?? Doesn't God need to destroy the apostate church--Mystery Babylon first? And doesn't that all happen after the temple is rebuilt for the third time and the antichrist has already been revealed??"

I already explained to you how Satan was bound. There is NO mention of God having to destroy an "apostate church". There is also NO MENTION of a temple being rebuilt for a third time much less some person who is described as the "antichrist" waiting to be revealed. This is nothing more than pure FANTASY for those who believe in the doctrine of PREMILLENIALISM for this doctrine is NOT supported by the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "The only way that Christ's church as he describes it can exist--is spiritually in the hearts of all believers. I say this because clearly all earthly religions are divided. There is One faith--and Christ is *not* divided. All who believe the gospel of Christ and have received Him--belong to Him. We are His body." No Faith, what you state CANNOT be true if there are different religions and different faiths. Yes, there is ONE body of Christ and it does NOT exist as you state "spiritually in the hearts of all believers". If this is indeed the case, where are your scriptural references to back up this claim???

I'd like to hear who you think is the true church of Jesus Christ on this earth?? What religion or church do you think is the true one?

Jesus says that we are not of this world--that we are in the world, but not of it. His kingdom is not earthly....and it is not established. Jesus knows who we are.

"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full (end of age), the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away (this is the harvest). This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked (unbelievers) from the righteous (those found in Christ) and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

There is ONE church and No, it is NOT spiritual, but does exist on this earth and No, it is NOT the Catholic Church for this corrupt institution has never been the True church that Jesus built. Jesus prayed for the UNITY of all believers in John 17:20, and that UNITY is in the church that Jesus built, the church of Christ.

Really? Hmm. Does that mean that anyone not is this supposed true church is not saved? According to the Bible--Jesus knows who are His-- and the harvest isn't until the end. Seems to me that you already did your own harvest!

You wrote, "Yes, I agree that our salvation is now. Christ's church grows and believers are being added daily."

Yes, believers are being added daily to the church, but NOT those who believe only are added to the church, it is those who OBEY the gospel that are added to the Lord's church.

I don't think that the Bible reveals that one doesn't have to believe--but just obey, in order to be saved. Quite the opposite. If the Law was able to save--there would never have been a reason for Jesus to come. But the Law never saved anyone...

You wrote, "The New Testament does mention a time when Christ returns to this earth. In Revelation 19 verse 19 I read that John sees the beast and the kings of the earth gathered together to make war with the rider on the horse and his army--whom we see a few verses earlier "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean" verse 13-14."

No Faith, you are indeed mistaken for none of these verses that you mentioned speak of Jesus being on the earth. Jesus does NOT need to be on the earth to fight for us for we have our weapon and that is the word of God.

Well the verse says that all the kings of the earth were gathered together to make war with the rider on the horse and His army. So where was this going to take place? I agree that Jesus never does involve the sword--he fights with a sharp tongue...but still--the picture is that Jesus is on the earth, unless the kings of the earth went up to heaven to attack! But Jesus even tells us that he will come back for us. This would require that he needs to return to the earth.

The apostle Paul explained this to the church at Corinth when he said in 2 Corinthians 10:4-5, "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God," and Paul also exorted the church at Ephesus in Ephesians 6:10-17, "Finally, my brethren, be STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT. Put on the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the WHOLE ARMOR OF GOD, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with TRUTH, having put on the BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the GOSPEL OF PEACE; above all, taking the SHIELD OF FAITH with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the HELMET OF SALVATION, and the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD;"

I don't disagree with any of this.

The weapons of our warfare are the WORD OF GOD exactly as the apostle Paul stated above. This is TRULY "Jesus with His church"!!!

I agree that our weapon is the Word of God, Kevin

You wrote, "Well like I said--there are different opinions as to what this all means. I personally cannot see that Thess.4-5 is the same thing as Rev 19 and 20--where we clearly see Jesus' return is anything but quiet."

I never said that Jesus return would be quiet. I also did not say anything about Thess. 4-5 ??? being the same thing as Rev 19 and 20. Was this a typo on your part perhaps? NO typo Kevin...just pointing out that there are two moments that Christ is described as returning. One for His Church..Thess 4..,and one with His church..Rev 19:19.

You wrote, "Doesn't the Bible describe the binding of Satan after the Tribulation (Jacob's Trouble)--after the wrath of God and His judgements..the seven seals and bowls?? Doesn't God need to destroy the apostate church--Mystery Babylon first? And doesn't that all happen after the temple is rebuilt for the third time and the antichrist has already been revealed??"

I already explained to you how Satan was bound. There is NO mention of God having to destroy an "apostate church".

What about Revelation Chapter 17 Kevin? God destroys the woman who rides the beast. She is representitive of an apostate religion. Most likely the Catholic Church--but I can't say for sure. This woman is far more apostate than the Catholic Church is as of yet.

There is also NO MENTION of a temple being rebuilt for a third time much less some person who is described as the "antichrist" waiting to be revealed.

I guess you don't read the Bible much?? Who are you listening to? It all boils down to interpretation Kevin. Sometimes--things are revealed by other things. In order for the Jewish people to be able to offer up sacrifices again..prophesied in the Scriptures for endtimes--the temple must be rebuilt since it doesn't exist right now. I see the antichrist prophesied in Daniel 7 and seen in Revelation 13.

This is nothing more than pure FANTASY for those who believe in the doctrine of PREMILLENIALISM for this doctrine is NOT supported by the word of God.

Well that is your opinion Kevin.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 29, 2004.

I reject PREMILLENIALISM, but for a different reason than Kevin. Revelation was probably the most undertaught book of the Bible other than Numbers. My understanding was simple. Christ is coming again at an unknown time, so be ready. Honestly, no matter what view you hold, I think everyone is in agreement that a Christian should live as such. Being caught off guard is not a good place to be positionally.

I'm not preterist. A careful study of end time events will disprove this. I believe the key to understanding end times is found in Revelation. John was to write what he had seen(past), what is (present), and what was soon to come (future). Most premillenialists believe that the 7 churches John wrote to symbolize church eras. However, no scripture supports this. John was simply writing to that which was (present for his time). The future events (his time) do not begin until chapter 4, which is where the supposed rapture occurs. The problem again is thinking that presently (our time) we are still in chapters 1-3, when it can be proved in great length that some of the seals have already been opened and some trumpets have already sounded. So now you know where I stand. I think we live currently admist the events of Revelation. The premillenial view cannot accept this because the chruch hasn't been raptured yet and the 7 year trib has yet to begin. However, not all of the events in Revelation occur in a 7 year period.

Of course, I could be wrong. Thankfully, God has promised something that isn't voided by my view of these events. I am still learning.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

You have a good point Biscuits about the crimes committed in the name of the church. There is a difference though. Evolution assumes no God, therefore no evolutionist can frown on crimes against humanity. Christianity on the other hand can and does. Though many people have done terrible deeds carrying a cross, it still is not in accorandance with Christian principles.

Of course, it's a mut point anyway if you don't know what Christianity is.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Quote "Evolution cannot be observed or tested in a scientific laboratory any mre than creation. Evolution, in the *vertical* sense-- that is-- "macroevolution," transmutation of one type of organism into a more complex type of organism--cannot be observed, even if it were true, since it presumably takes an immense span of time. No such instance of macroevolution has ever been observed, in all recorded history, by any human being. Evolution has occured and can be observed-micro evolution is observable and can be seen-especially in insects because the lifespan of a generation is so short. There is explanation yet (because realscience is always skeptical) to prohibit micro evolution from becoming macroevolution. Besides, all macro evolution is is a lot of micro evolution over time. In oder to believe the whole Noah's flood story (as nearly all creationists do)you must have macro evolution. Of course, that still leaves the problem that no wooden ship has ever (was ever) built as large as the bible claims it to have been. Even in the era of wooden ships, the largest ones were built in the 1600- 1700's, a long time after the supposed ark, were never anything near the size given for the Ark, which is nearly half the size of the Titanic (882 long x 92 beam). BTW, you have to throw an awful lot out in order for geology to match the bible, and all hoaxes have been admitted to as just that by science, hoaxes. Besides, your brand of science needs them a lot more than real science does.

Elrod, it sounds like your one of those types who's "more intrested in the Rock of Ages than the age of rocks" We did not evolve from apes!! No creature alive today is the ancestor of any other creature alive today. We merely share a common ancestor (which explains alot of the stuff found in genetic code)

Hi never@never.never!! Glad you liked the facts. It doesn't seem to have much effect on these 'lost' people (pardon the pun)

-- Anti-Phelps (fundy_fred@big_laughs.com), March 29, 2004.

Actually, some scientists claim that all of life "evolved" from the sponge. Every function that the sponge can do is the progenetor of everything we see today (not my assertion--science). Oh, I was once into the whole science thing. But, my answers were merely more questions, as you may realize too.

So, you know me that well?

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

That "micro-evolution" you speak of is nothing more than the process of mutation in that organism. That mutation can very well be the mechanics of Creation. That mutation is nothing more that the reaction to a given stimuli. And of course, we all know the Source of that stimuli--God. Eventually, inevitably, irrefutably, God.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

If or when matter or mass modulates, you still have the problem of explaining the Source of that stimuli/catalyst. Scientists--old school--will settle for an empty void; I prefer God as the one and only Source of all Evolution--Creation.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

The Christian Yahwist on Milleniarism

On Millenialm I have to agree to a certain degree with you Kevin W. and Luke J. on millenialism with respect to Faith's point.

My point is that most of Reveation has been fulfilled already. a)The Seven Churches of Revelation don't exist anymore. They are in what is now Turkey.Asia Minor is now Turkey, a Muslim nation. b) The woman of Revelation which is pregnant (Mary) already happened with Jesus. c) The 144,000 is just not literal.

-Why?Joseph is counted twice: as Joseph (Ephraem) and as Manasseh. Can you see which tribe(s) are omitted? BTW: Only Judah, Levi, and Benjamin are mentioned in the Gospels. What happened to the others?

-These are male virgins!!! (how absurd) These excludes married men, those living together, and women.

The other woman, the prostitute, represents Rome and the Roman Empire. Here I have to agree with Faith against Ian half way, since the woman doesn't represent the Catholic Church. Here I side with Ian.

This prophecy deals with Domitian (The 8th legit Emperor from Octavius Augustus. His Father was Titus (who ruled a little while) and Vespasian (who destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70). There were 3 other Emperors, not legit from Ad 68-69 AD. That is why the Head has 10 crowns.

So at the end of Revelation, we are not dealing with 144,000 reigning with the lamb physically, but in a spiritual sense, the spiritual Israel (repreesented by the 12 tribes) reigning with Christ one day.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

The Christian Yahwist on Evolution and creationism

Both are theories. One claims nature at work (science) , the other God.

The truth should be somewhere in the middle.

Science in promoting Evolution can't explain all the missing middle links in the evolutionary process. (Something I call God)

Creationism cannot explain how in the world we are adapted to Earth without using masks, special suits,... to survivce on Earth. It cannot expain either how close genetically we are to several species (not just animals) but plants, fungus,...(This I call science).

So neither theory is 100% true in a wider sense.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Natural Selection according to Norman Pace:

"I blame Peter Pan actually. Because like Captain Hook in Peter Pan I have a morbid fear of crocodiles.

"I hate reptiles in general but crocodiles in particular and although I do hate them and I'm frightened of them I have a grudging respect for them because they've actually survived on Earth over 200 million years, they outlasted the dinosaurs, so they're a huge evolutionary success. Why? How can a floating log with teeth be so successful and the answer is because they're terrifying.

"It starts with the fact that when they're floating gently along in the water you can see this one nasty little eye and this eye has a very nasty little membrane that keeps moving up and down. That eye has such an evil look in it, it looks straight at you, and it's looking at you as if to say you're next I'm going to have you.

"I've seen on wildlife documentaries a crocodile taking a big animal like a wildebeest or a zebra drag it down into the water and kill it within seconds, that's the most terrifying thing of all to me. It's the teeth actually, there are so many of them and they're so big and sharp. Like a director would say to a chorus line 'It's eyes and teeth, eyes and teeth'."

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

I'm thinking, don't interrupt me.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

So, evolution tries to explain how the environment sort of pressured man (as he was known then) into evolving? As the habitat changed, species of this and that had to adapt to it. In that case, what caused the habitat to grow. Evolution isn't limited to animals only, but also plants. Perhaps I cannot fathom this fully, but all goes back to the "what holds the earth up?" argument. The best theories of evolution still leave that "something else out there." A type of governing law. This is very random for me. I am going to sit and drink some RC cola

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

That is the sort of problem I am trying to adress, Luke with evolution.

If the crocodile is 200 million years old, why it still looks almost the same as 200 million years ago. Not only crocodiles, but ants, and many other insects.

On the other hand, creationism in a 7,000 year Earthly period tries to show too much happening. Examples: -The Bible doesn't know there were places like America. -The Bible doesn't know the Chinese, Indians (from India), Japanese,...!!! -Not enough space in the Ark (flat ship) to hold all the animals in the world. Let's see: 7 cows and 7 bulls, ...2 giraffes, 2 rabbists, 2 camels,...2 pigeons ,2 crows,...

what about cheetahs, kangaroos(not known in the Bible), Pandas(not known in the Bible), mountain lions, llamas, vicuņas, anteaters, ....and many more not mentioned in the Bible?

Whatever happened to all edible plants that could have been destroyed by the salty water: wheat, corn(maize) not known in the Bible, camotes (yams)(not known in the Bible), Yucca (not known in the Bible),....

So creationism can't explain this because they don't understand that the flood of Genesis is a local flood, that is pertaining to what is now Northern Iraq (the Plain of Shinar).

So neither theory is 100% reliable. They are theories, not facts.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

"Not enough space in the Ark (flat ship) to hold all the animals in the world" - Elpidio

Some animals you mention, and that we have now are cross breeds. Of course, they wouldn't have existed at that time. And if they did, they wouldn't need it. Just cross breed the other two animals again. And the animals did not have to be Old and big, Noah probably got the ones 'in their teens'.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 29, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "I'd like to hear who you think is the true church of Jesus Christ on this earth?? What religion or church do you think is the true one?"

The ONLY church that Jesus built is the church of Christ. There is NO other church and the ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel and are added by the Lord to HIS CHURCH.

Have you obeyed the gospel of Christ??? If you have not, then you have been misled to believe that you are a Christian.

There is considerable confusion in the minds of many as to what constitutes a Christian. Most people seem to think that anyone who professes any degree of belief in Christ, or who makes any claim of being so, is in fact a Christian. But is that true? Is there not more involved than that?

The Bible teaches that the gospel of Christ is God's power to save (Romans 1:16). In order for a person to become a Christian, he must not only hear and believe the gospel, but he must obey it! Notice what Christ Himself said: "He that believeth (the gospel) and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). Notice the 6th chapter of the book of Romans: believers were freed from sin WHEN they obeyed from the heart the teaching they had received (verses 16-18). That teaching was the gospel, and they obeyed it by being baptized into the death of Christ, and raised from the watery grave even as He was raised by God's power (read verses 6-11).

While a lot of people go to Romans 5:1 to prove that salvation is by faith only, they ignore chapter 1, verse 5, and chapter 16, verse 26, both of which speak of "obedience of faith." When one's personal faith leads him to obey the commands of Christ, i.e., the commands inherent in "the faith once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), he THEN becomes a Christian.

Thus, baptism of a sincere believer is "into Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27). The "pattern" is clearly revealed in Acts 2. Please note the gospel was preached (verses 22-36), and those who believed it asked what they should do (verse 37). They were told to "repent and be baptized" by the authority of Christ, in order to receive the remission of their sins (verse 38). Those that did so (verse 41) were added to the Lord's church (verse 47), which is the body of the saved (Ephesians 5:23), and the reconciled (Ephesians 2:16).

Some object to the concept of obedience by focusing all their attention on the grace of God. Certainly a great deal of attention needs to be focused on His grace because the Bible teaches that it is "by His grace" that salvation is made possible (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:7, etc.). We would NOT minimize that for a moment, and indeed we rejoice in His grace!

But it is misleading to make the "umbrella" of God's grace so inclusive as NOT to exclude anyone! The Bible excludes those who refuse to hear and see the truth (Matthew 13:15), who refuse to believe the truth (see John 3:18, 36; and Mark 16:16), and who do NOT obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). And Jesus Himself taught that those who worship according to the doctrines of men do so in vain (Matthew 15:7-9). You wrote, "Jesus says that we are not of this world--that we are in the world, but not of it. His kingdom is not earthly....and it is not established. Jesus knows who we are. "Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full (end of age), the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away (this is the harvest). This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked (unbelievers) from the righteous (those found in Christ) and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Faith, you have been taught wrong. The kingdom of God is HERE on this earth right now, this very minute for Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU."

Yes, the kingdom of God is not a physical kingdom like kingdoms of this world! The kingdom of God is a SPIRITUAL kingdom, unbounded by physical borders and limitations. It is "within." It is a kingdom of the spirit. But it most certainly is NOT people in all of the churches of the world as you have been led to believe.

You wrote, "Really? Hmm. Does that mean that anyone not is this supposed true church is not saved? According to the Bible--Jesus knows who are His-- and the harvest isn't until the end. Seems to me that you already did your own harvest!"

Yes, everyone who is NOT in the true church are NOT saved. Jesus knows those who are His and we know who are His for it is PLAINLY revealed in the New Testament that those who obey the gospel will be saved.

You wrote, "I don't think that the Bible reveals that one doesn't have to believe--but just obey, in order to be saved. Quite the opposite. If the Law was able to save--there would never have been a reason for Jesus to come. But the Law never saved anyone... "

I never said anything about the "law" and you are correct, the "law" never saved anyone.

You wrote, "Well the verse says that all the kings of the earth were gathered together to make war with the rider on the horse and His army. So where was this going to take place? I agree that Jesus never does involve the sword--he fights with a sharp tongue...but still--the picture is that Jesus is on the earth, unless the kings of the earth went up to heaven to attack! But Jesus even tells us that he will come back for us. This would require that he needs to return to the earth."

I gave you the verses in my last reply that spoke of the war that we rage and it is NOT a physical war, but a SPIRITUAL war, so Jesus does NOT have to be on this earth. See 2 Corinthians 10:3-5.

You wrote, "NO typo Kevin...just pointing out that there are two moments that Christ is described as returning. One for His Church..Thess 4..,and one with His church..Rev 19:19."

No Faith, you have been misled again, there is NO mention of 2 comings of Jesus Christ. Please go back and re-read 2 Corinthians 15:23-28.

You wrote, "What about Revelation Chapter 17 Kevin? God destroys the woman who rides the beast. She is representitive of an apostate religion. Most likely the Catholic Church--but I can't say for sure. This woman is far more apostate than the Catholic Church is as of yet."

Revelation 1:1 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants?THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE." Does God take over 2,000 years to destroy this woman who rides the beast??? I think not? This is clearly a reference to the Jews in the first century. (compare Revelation 17:6 with Revelation 18:21-24 and Matthew 23:31-38).

I wrote, "There is also NO MENTION of a temple being rebuilt for a third time much less some person who is described as the "antichrist" waiting to be revealed."

To which you replied, "I guess you don't read the Bible much?? Who are you listening to? It all boils down to interpretation Kevin. Sometimes--things are revealed by other things. In order for the Jewish people to be able to offer up sacrifices again..prophesied in the Scriptures for endtimes--the temple must be rebuilt since it doesn't exist right now. I see the antichrist prophesied in Daniel 7 and seen in Revelation 13."

Excuse me??? So, who is it that does not read their Bibles much Faith??? Surely you have not made your case for a temple being rebuilt NOR will you find any justification in the New Testament for your opinion. If I do not read my Bible much, then I would like to suggest that you prove that this is indeed the case. For your information, I do NOT listen to anybody and NO, it does NOT all boil down to interpretation for that is what the Catholic Church chides all of these conflicting denominations for their different doctrines. It all boils down to what the word of God states concerning any doctrine. There is NO such thing as an end time antichrist and there is NO reference in Daniel 7 that states that there will be such a person in the future. This may be what you have been led to believe by those that YOU have been listening to, but that is NOT the truth according to the word of God.

I wrote, "This is nothing more than pure FANTASY for those who believe in the doctrine of PREMILLENIALISM for this doctrine is NOT supported by the word of God."

To which you replied, "Well that is your opinion Kevin."

No Faith, that is NOT my opinion, that is EXACTLY what the word of God states. Abraham looked for a better kingdom, that is a heavenly one. (Hebrews 11:16). Paul longed for a place that was "eternal in the heavens" (2 Corinthians 5:1). Philippians 3:20 tells us PLAINLY that "our citizenship is in HEAVEN". It appears that PREMILLENIALISM teach TOTALLY IGNORES these verses. Your view of 1,000 years in the book of Revelation and what will happen VIOLATES such passages as 2 Peter 3 and 1 Thessalonians 4 which inform us that when the Lord comes to this earth, we will meet Him in the air - "and so shall we ever be"!!! Our Savior came to this earth the first time to take away sin (Matthew 1:21) and having once accomplished His purpose, Jesus Christ will NOT return "to deal with sin" (Hebrews 9:28). The PREMILLENIAL view of Christ coming back to set up His kingdom TOTALLY IGNORES clear and bountiful passages which teach us He has been REIGNING over the kingdom for 19 centuries. A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15:23-25 and Hebrews 12:23-28 establishes FOREVER this point. The PREMILLENIAL theory of the MILLENIUM is TOTALLY FALSE!!!

1. God is NO respecter of persons. (Romans 2:11, Romans 10:12; Acts 10:34; Galatians 3:28).

2. God does NOT dwell in temples made with hands. (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24-26; Habakkuk 3:2).

3. Fulfillment of EVERY land promise made to Abraham and his seed took place centuries ago. (Joshua 21:43, Joshua 24:13; Nehemiah 9:7-9).

4. Christ is reigning NOW. (Romans 15:12; Acts 2:30; 1 Corinthians 15:23-25).

5. David's throne, Solomon's throne and Christ's throne all equal the same thing ? AUTHORITY! Read carefully 1 Kings 2:12; 1 Chronicles 29:23; Revelation 3:21, Revelation 22:1 and then notice Ephesians 1:20-23; Psalm 24 and Matthew 28:18.

6. When Christ comes at the end of the world this earth shall be burned up and dissolved. (2 Peter 3). The righteous and the unrighteous shall be raised at the same time (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15). Judgment shall ensue (2 Thessalonians 1:4-10). Jesus will deliver the kingdom up to God. (1 Corinthians 15:23-25).

7. Now, TODAY the gospel age is the time for sinners to be saved! (2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:15; Revelation 14:13).

8. Judaism, it's law and priestly system was taken out of the way at calvary and in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. (Matthew 26:28; Romans 10:4; 2 Corinthians 3:6-16; Galatians 2:21; Hebrews 10:1-12). It shall NOT be revived by God or recognized by heaven because the gospel of Christ IS the power of God to salvation. (John 12:48; Romans 1:16, Romans 2:16). Christ, not Moses is our mediator. (John 1:17; Romans 7:4).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 29, 2004.

Luke,

I am glad that you reject PREMILLENIALISM, because it is indeed a FALSE DOCTRINE. I was also glad to hear that you are not a preterist because this view is also FALSE.

Yes, the book of Revelation is the most MISUNDERSTOOD book in the Bible. The apostle John wrote in Revelation 1:1 of things that will "shortly come to pass" and I do believe that MOST if not ALL of the book of Revelation was written to the churches that were in the first century. This book is FILLED with symbolism and since we do NOT know when Jesus will return (He will return as a thief in the night) all of these people who look to the book of Revelation to try to say that the end is near really have NOT read their Bibles.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 29, 2004.

Elpidio, I see your point.

What about prehistoric animals, ie dinosaurs? Surely these beasts of colossal size that are presented in our museums of natural history could not fit upon the ark. Well the measurements are given. Why doesn't someone measure a dino, or two at that to see if they would fit.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

"Why doesn't someone measure a dino, or two at that to see if they would fit."

Baby dinos weren't as big.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 29, 2004.

When the Firmament collapsed, it took the "colossal" beasts with it.

David, that is what I meant about mutation. That mutt doggy didn't exist until breeders started fooling around with cross-breeding.

Elpidio, Domitian has to be the very vital point to Patmos' writings/dreams.

BTW--

Noah saved his family and the animals. Why the animals and not the other humans? One thing that hit me like a ton of bricks was the idea that animal sacrifice was a ritual. The ark took the animals--sacrifices--to their salvation. It is almost like taking the sins of the world and cleansing the world. In other words, the story of Noah and the Ark has several meanings--The Ark=The Church, The Ark=The Savior, The Ark=The Redemption. It was an event signaling the coming of the Messiah--Jesus Christ.

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

When the Firmament collapsed, it took the "colossal" beasts with it.

I can't recall the time table, but its collapse had a lot to do with the oxygen levels changing. The change was responsible for the creature's inability to absorb enough oxygen in its cells. They eventually died. The big whales were at a great advantage. The whales could(still can) submerge into fridged waters and utilize their oxygen supply to a greater efficiency. Survival of the fittest? Perhaps. Meant to be? Obviously.

I also believe that some animal mutations are a result of environmental conditions, either intentional or accidental. Now, those intentional conditions may be blamed on man or.....oh, who knows.....Satan? Why else would God allow the destruction of the earth's human population unless evil roamed the earth? Seems obvious.

....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Simply put--

There are evil creatures and not so evil creatures in the world. Hmm.....Evolution?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Saint Paul, Justin, Origin,... would be proud of you, Rod.

Yours is allegorical language.

Paul used it in Galatians to refer to God's people. The Ark being such a case. It was the same idea Moses had when he made the Ark of the Covenant. It represented God's salvation. Those who touched it not being pure, died.

Luke

I also don't like the dating. Carbon 14 is only good for 30,000 years. Even in 2000 years, the carbon dating at qumrum tends to fluctuate for 100-300 years.

Dating by rocks and sediment is not reliable. The Earth is constantly changing. Just because something is at the bottom of the pit (Like Olduvai, the place used to date humans in africa) doesn't mean is the oldest. It could have been carried there.

In the past, I believe there were bigger animals, like the dinosaurs, becase we were not around to kill them. There was much more vegetation then also. That explains all the oil in such desert areas like Saudi Arabia, Iraq,and Kuwait.

Have you checked the dimensions of the Ark of Noah, David: Logistics: 3 stories -A cubit is between 35-41 Cm. -Length-300 -Width-50 -Height-30 Volume : 300X50X30= 450,000 cubic cubits. X .00064 cubic centimeters/cubic meter= 28,880 cubic meters.

1 meter is 1000 cubic decimeters. 1 decimeter is about a liter of water. This is about 1 kilogram. This is then 2.2 pounds. so 28,800X1000X1= 28,800,000 Kg = 63,360,000 pounds.

1 ton is about 2000 lbs. That's about 31,680 tons. of weight of animals.

Gen 6:15 And this [is the fashion] which thou shalt make it [of]: The length of the ark [shall be] three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.

Gen 6:16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it

-Let's start with 7 bulls, 7 cows. That's about 5 tons. Then 7 horses- 7 mares, ..., what about the 2 elephants? Ummmm.....

Don't forget the food.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

David, don't forget animals need space, water to drink,...

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Elpidio,

Why don't you ask God how he did it?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 29, 2004.

That's the whole point, David, as Rod said it best:

The Ark represents salvation. Those outside are dead.

The same word used for the boat (Atk of Noah) is the same word used for Ark (of the covenant).

It is just a story of faith. It tells the story of how those before Moses saved their lives, by being in the Ark. Gen 6:14 the ark, [08392] tebah and shalt pitch [03722] kaphar it within [01004] bayith and without [02351] chuwts with pitch. [03724] kopher Greek Kiboton.

Moses rescued in an Ark (basket in the Nile)

Exodus 2:5 the ark [08392] tebah among [08432] tavek the flags, [05488] cuwph

Hebrew uses another word for Ark of the Covenant but Greek still uses Kiboton. Exodus 25:10

an ark [0727] 'arown [of] shittim [07848] shittah wood: [06086] `ets two cubits [0520] 'ammah and a half [02677] chetsiy [shall be] the length [0753] 'orek thereof, and a cubit [0520] 'ammah and a half [02677] chetsiy the breadth [07341] rochab thereof, and a cubit [0520] 'ammah

I believe the dimensions of the Ark were then trasnferred in proportion into the dimensions of the ark (shop?) of Noah.

50/30 cubits of width and height is 5/3 ratio or close to about 1 1/2. Same ratio as the Ark.

Yes, I asked God. So far no answer, as far as I know, David.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Thanks for your opinion Kevin,

I appreciate your stand. However, I find the gospel of Jesus Christ says something else.

I think obedience comes because we believe and have faith. It is the natural outpouring of a greatful heart. If we don't see obedience and *good fruit*, then most likely the faith is no faith at all--it is dead.

Is there a specific church called the church of Christ? I mean--I know churches with such names like Christ Alive church., or the Church of Jesus Christ etc...but they don't seem to be universal like the Roman Catholic Church or anything. They seem to be denominal bible teaching churches that just aren't Lutheran or methodist in particular.

If there is not a specific earthbound congregation with that name-- then aren't we saying the same thing?

I think that the church of Jesus Christ is His Body of believers. We are universal...but we are not founded in one religion or instituition. We won't be until Christ comes for us and establishes us at the end of time.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 30, 2004.

God said, "Let there be bold."

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 30, 2004.

Ah, so there it is. Another forum the code is slightly different. I was puzzled. I am now evolved.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Thanks for your opinion Kevin,"

I did not offer you my opinion Faith, merely what the word of God has stated.

You wrote, "I appreciate your stand. However, I find the gospel of Jesus Christ says something else."

If you find the gospel of Jesus Christ says something else, then I would ask you to please re-read what the apostle Paul said in Galatians 1:6-9.

We OBEY the gospel when we:

1. Hear the gospel (Romans 10:17) 2. Believe the gospel (Mark 1:15) 3. Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3) 4. Confess Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:10) 5. Are Baptized (in water) FOR the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38)

When we repent of our sins, this is where we "Die to sin" our DEATH. (Romans 6:2). When we are Baptized, it is our BURIAL. (Romans 6:3). When we come up out of the water it is our RESURRECTION. (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). This is how someone OBEYS THE GOSPEL.

Get it?

The gospel = Jesus DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION. To obey the gospel = Our DEATH (Repentance), Our BURIAL (Baptism), Our Resurrection (We come up out of the watery grave of Baptism).

Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 to see what will happen to those who do NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL.

Remember, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY HIM!!! (Hebrews 5:9).

Until one has complied with ALL of these conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved. One CANNOT be taught a false gospel or believe that they are saved and expect to go to heaven if they do not obey the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-27).

You wrote, "I think obedience comes because we believe and have faith. It is the natural outpouring of a greatful heart. If we don't see obedience and *good fruit*, then most likely the faith is no faith at all--it is dead."

The apostle James said in James 2:20, 26 that, "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH.

You wrote, "Is there a specific church called the church of Christ? I mean--I know churches with such names like Christ Alive church., or the Church of Jesus Christ etc...but they don't seem to be universal like the Roman Catholic Church or anything. They seem to be denominal bible teaching churches that just aren't Lutheran or methodist in particular."

Yes, in fact here is a SPECIFIC church called the church of Christ and there is probably one in your neighborhood. Here are some links that I would suggest that you read when you get some time.

The Establishment of the Church of Christ

Identifying the church of the New Testament

The restoration of First-Century Christianity

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "Thanks for your opinion Kevin,"

I did not offer you my opinion Faith, merely what the word of God has stated.

You wrote, "I appreciate your stand. However, I find the gospel of Jesus Christ says something else."

If you find the gospel of Jesus Christ says something else, then I would ask you to please re-read what the apostle Paul said in Galatians 1:6-9.

We OBEY the gospel when we:

1. Hear the gospel (Romans 10:17) 2. Believe the gospel (Mark 1:15) 3. Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3) 4. Confess Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:10) 5. Are Baptized (in water) FOR the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38)

When we repent of our sins, this is where we "Die to sin" our DEATH. (Romans 6:2). When we are Baptized, it is our BURIAL. (Romans 6:3). When we come up out of the water it is our RESURRECTION. (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). This is how someone OBEYS THE GOSPEL.

So then.., of all those verses which are speaking symbolically-- for certainly we haven't literally been buried and we haven't litterally been resurrected., and we haven't literally died--- but we must, for some reasons be literally emmersed in a pool of water to be baptized?

I am sorry Kevin--but John's water baptism was a symbolic gesture to reflect all these symbolic pictures--symbolic of a deeper truth and of the One to come and His sacrifice and resurrection..

Get it?

Do you?

The gospel = Jesus DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION. To obey the gospel = Our DEATH (Repentance), Our BURIAL (Baptism), Our Resurrection (We come up out of the watery grave of Baptism). Yes--all symbolically, of course!

Please read 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 to see what will happen to those who do NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL. We disagree as to what gospel we are to obey. Jesus' or Kevin's?

Remember, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY HIM!!! (Hebrews 5:9).

Exactly. And what Jesus said was that the work of God is this: To *believe* in the One He has sent."

Until one has complied with ALL of these conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved. One CANNOT be taught a false gospel or believe that they are saved and expect to go to heaven if they do not obey the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-27). Right--but again, we disagree as to what these conditions are.

You wrote, "I think obedience comes because we believe and have faith. It is the natural outpouring of a greatful heart. If we don't see obedience and *good fruit*, then most likely the faith is no faith at all--it is dead."

The apostle James said in James 2:20, 26 that, "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH.

No., actually what James is saying is that *faith* that isn't evidenced by works--is no faith at all.

Surely you don't think he and Paul would contradict one another, do you?"

You wrote, "Is there a specific church called the church of Christ? I mean--I know churches with such names like Christ Alive church., or the Church of Jesus Christ etc...but they don't seem to be universal like the Roman Catholic Church or anything. They seem to be denominal bible teaching churches that just aren't Lutheran or methodist in particular."

Yes, in fact here is a SPECIFIC church called the church of Christ and there is probably one in your neighborhood. Here are some links that I would suggest that you read when you get some time.

The Establishment of the Church of Christ

Identifying the church of the New Testament

The restoration of First-Century Christianity

The church of Jesus Christ is not some religion or earthbound building--it is His chosen Body of believers. We are universal and we are undivided. Jesus knows who we are. We can only guess.....

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "So then.., of all those verses which are speaking symbolically-- for certainly we haven't literally been buried and we haven't litterally been resurrected., and we haven't literally died--- but we must, for some reasons be literally emmersed in a pool of water to be baptized?"

Is baptism a burial, yes or no? Did the apostle Paul lie in Romans the sixth chapter when he said that we were BURIED with Him in baptism??? I suppose that Philip when he preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8 must not have preached baptism IN WATER otherwise, how would the eunuch get "see here is water, what hinders me from being baptized" out of just having Jesus preached to him. Yes, we must be LITERALLY baptized IN WATER for the remission of our sins. Please explain the ethiopian eunuch if water is not LITERAL water??? I don't know what church you attend, but they have NOT been teaching from the Bible.

You wrote, "I am sorry Kevin--but John's water baptism was a symbolic gesture to reflect all these symbolic pictures--symbolic of a deeper truth and of the One to come and His sacrifice and resurrection.."

Once again, you do err not knowing the truth. Please explain to me if John's water baptism was "symbolic" as you say then how do you explain that his baptism was FOR the remission of sin?? Yes, this baptism was IN WATER just like there is ONLY one baptism now and this baptism is IN WATER.

I wrote, "Get it?"

To which you replied, "Do you?"

Obviously it is you who do NOT get it Faith. How many baptisms are there Faith??? Are you going to answer this question??? You wrote, "Exactly. And what Jesus said was that the work of God is this: To *believe* in the One He has sent."

No, that is NOT all that one has to do is to "believe" for even the demons believe and TREMBLE but you are not going to argue that they are saved now are you??? You call Jesus "Lord, Lord", but you do NOT do the things that He says. (Matthew 7:21, Luke 6:46). This is your *believe* only crowd Faith whether you like it or not.

I wrote, "Until one has complied with ALL of these conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved. One CANNOT be taught a false gospel or believe that they are saved and expect to go to heaven if they do not obey the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-27)."

To which you replied, "Right--but again, we disagree as to what these conditions are."

Faith, I have asked you for EXAMPLES of ones who were saved the way you claim in the book of Acts, where are your EXAMPLES of those who were saved by *belief* ONLY???

I wrote, "The apostle James said in James 2:20, 26 that, "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH."

To which you replied, "No., actually what James is saying is that *faith* that isn't evidenced by works--is no faith at all. Surely you don't think he and Paul would contradict one another, do you?""

Once again, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH. These are NOT works of the law, so NO James and Paul do NOT contradict one another. The *faith* you advocate is one that states that one is saved the moment one believes and that is FALSE.

You wrote, "The church of Jesus Christ is not some religion or earthbound building--it is His chosen Body of believers. We are universal and we are undivided. Jesus knows who we are. We can only guess....."

That is your OPINION Faith and it is NOT in accordance with the word of God. God is NOT the "author of confusion" but of PEACE so please explain how there can be Christians in different denominations if they are so divided and not one of them have the same doctrine??? Christ prayed that we would ALL be ONE in John 17:20-22. Christ CANNOT be in all of these religions who claim to have the truth and there are NO Christians outside of the body of Christ. There is ONLY one body and that body is the church and this body is NOT spread around in the different religions as you have been misled to believe.

The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel whether you believe it or not.

Jesus will return in flaming fire to take VENGEANCE on those who do NOT know God (yes, those who have never heard of God will be punished) and on those who do NOT obey the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "So then.., of all those verses which are speaking symbolically-- for certainly we haven't literally been buried and we haven't litterally been resurrected., and we haven't literally died--- but we must, for some reasons be literally emmersed in a pool of water to be baptized?"

Is baptism a burial, yes or no? Did the apostle Paul lie in Romans the sixth chapter when he said that we were BURIED with Him in baptism???

This was speaking strictly spiritually Kevin., and you must recognize that.

I suppose that Philip when he preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8 must not have preached baptism IN WATER otherwise, how would the eunuch get "see here is water, what hinders me from being baptized" out of just having Jesus preached to him. Yes, we must be LITERALLY baptized IN WATER for the remission of our sins. Please explain the ethiopian eunuch if water is not LITERAL water??? I don't know what church you attend, but they have NOT been teaching from the Bible.

The eunuch merely desired to show his faith by being baptised as people did in those days and still do today. The ritual was signifying a spiritual truth--that the eunuch had believed in Jesus by being washed new by the Word of God. The eunuch actually didn't receive Jesus because of the gospel per say, but because he recognized Jesus in Isaiah.

You wrote, "I am sorry Kevin--but John's water baptism was a symbolic gesture to reflect all these symbolic pictures--symbolic of a deeper truth and of the One to come and His sacrifice and resurrection.."

Once again, you do err not knowing the truth. Please explain to me if John's water baptism was "symbolic" as you say then how do you explain that his baptism was FOR the remission of sin??

It was symbolic of repentance which is for the remission of sins. Repentance and confessing Jesus is Lord--is what washes us clean.

Yes, this baptism was IN WATER just like there is ONLY one baptism now and this baptism is IN WATER.

I wrote, "Get it?"

To which you replied, "Do you?"

Obviously it is you who do NOT get it Faith. How many baptisms are there Faith??? Are you going to answer this question???

I did answer it Kevin. I said there is one baptism. That baptism is spiritual--and we represent it symbolically by performing a ritual.

You wrote, "Exactly. And what Jesus said was that the work of God is this: To *believe* in the One He has sent."

No, that is NOT all that one has to do is to "believe" for even the demons believe and TREMBLE but you are not going to argue that they are saved now are you???

What makes you think that the demons believe in Jesus and have received Him? That doesn't ring true for me.

You call Jesus "Lord, Lord", but you do NOT do the things that He says. (Matthew 7:21, Luke 6:46). This is your *believe* only crowd Faith whether you like it or not. I have been baptised Kevin. I did this because it was important to God that I do this. I just do not think that the ceremony is why I am saved. I am saved because I repented, confessed Jesus is Lord and received Him., and the Holy Spirit. That is the baptism that I am saved by. Not some ritualist *work* of my own. The Bible tells us that there is nothing that we can do to be saved except to believe in Jesus to save us.

I wrote, "Until one has complied with ALL of these conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved. One CANNOT be taught a false gospel or believe that they are saved and expect to go to heaven if they do not obey the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-27)."

To which you replied, "Right--but again, we disagree as to what these conditions are."

Faith, I have asked you for EXAMPLES of ones who were saved the way you claim in the book of Acts, where are your EXAMPLES of those who were saved by *belief* ONLY???

Well it seems you missed all the verses I supplied you with? Maybe in the other thread?

Here they are again:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forebearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

I can find many more if you'd like me to.

I wrote, "The apostle James said in James 2:20, 26 that, "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH."

To which you replied, "No., actually what James is saying is that *faith* that isn't evidenced by works--is no faith at all. Surely you don't think he and Paul would contradict one another, do you?""

Once again, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH. These are NOT works of the law, so NO James and Paul do NOT contradict one another. The *faith* you advocate is one that states that one is saved the moment one believes and that is FALSE.

That is your opinion. I understand James to be saying that true faith will be evidenced by *works* or the *fruit* of the Spirit. If someone claims to have faith--but shows no fruit--they are most likely not saved in the first place because their faith is not real. Otherwise we would see the fruit evidenced by what they do.

You wrote, "The church of Jesus Christ is not some religion or earthbound building--it is His chosen Body of believers. We are universal and we are undivided. Jesus knows who we are. We can only guess....."

That is your OPINION Faith and it is NOT in accordance with the word of God. God is NOT the "author of confusion" but of PEACE so please explain how there can be Christians in different denominations if they are so divided and not one of them have the same doctrine???

Because Christians are united by the truth in Jesus Christ--which is that He died and is risen and will come for those who belong to Him. What church one goes to doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter if we agree about the rapture or the endtimes scenarios or whether Revelation has happened or is still future--the only thing that matters is whether we have come to a saving faith In Jesus to save us. Unfortunately--many religions lead people away from the saving gospel., like the Catholic Church. Every religion on this earth is part of a division--including yours. No earthbound religion could possibly be Christ's one true church. Jesus says it himself-- His kingdom (church) is not of this world. It is therefore--spiritual in nature.

Christ prayed that we would ALL be ONE in John 17:20-22. Christ CANNOT be in all of these religions who claim to have the truth and there are NO Christians outside of the body of Christ.

This is right. Christ is not in any religion. The question is--are we in Him? We are in Him when we receive Him. This is a spiritual truth, Kevin.

There is ONLY one body and that body is the church and this body is NOT spread around in the different religions as you have been misled to believe.

NO., you are right. We are One with Him in spirit--Kevin. We are universal., in spirit.

The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel whether you believe it or not. Right., and the gospel says that when you believe in the One He has sent., when you receive Him as a gift--you will not perish- -but WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus will return in flaming fire to take VENGEANCE on those who do NOT know God (yes, those who have never heard of God will be punished) and on those who do NOT obey the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

Those who have never heard of God...really?

I think the Scriptures reveal that it is those who reject the truth who are condemned. The truth is that Jesus died in our place--and in order for us to be saved, we must believe that He did exactly what God says He did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "So then.., of all those verses which are speaking symbolically-- for certainly we haven't literally been buried and we haven't litterally been resurrected., and we haven't literally died--- but we must, for some reasons be literally emmersed in a pool of water to be baptized?"

Is baptism a burial, yes or no? Did the apostle Paul lie in Romans the sixth chapter when he said that we were BURIED with Him in baptism???

This was speaking strictly spiritually Kevin., and you must recognize that.

I suppose that Philip when he preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8 must not have preached baptism IN WATER otherwise, how would the eunuch get "see here is water, what hinders me from being baptized" out of just having Jesus preached to him. Yes, we must be LITERALLY baptized IN WATER for the remission of our sins. Please explain the ethiopian eunuch if water is not LITERAL water??? I don't know what church you attend, but they have NOT been teaching from the Bible.

The eunuch merely desired to show his faith by being baptised as people did in those days and still do today. The ritual was signifying a spiritual truth--that the eunuch had believed in Jesus by being washed new by the Word of God. The eunuch actually didn't receive Jesus because of the gospel per say, but because he recognized Jesus in Isaiah.

You wrote, "I am sorry Kevin--but John's water baptism was a symbolic gesture to reflect all these symbolic pictures--symbolic of a deeper truth and of the One to come and His sacrifice and resurrection.."

Once again, you do err not knowing the truth. Please explain to me if John's water baptism was "symbolic" as you say then how do you explain that his baptism was FOR the remission of sin??

It was symbolic of repentance which is for the remission of sins. Repentance and confessing Jesus is Lord--is what washes us clean.

Yes, this baptism was IN WATER just like there is ONLY one baptism now and this baptism is IN WATER.

I wrote, "Get it?"

To which you replied, "Do you?"

Obviously it is you who do NOT get it Faith. How many baptisms are there Faith??? Are you going to answer this question???

I did answer it Kevin. I said there is one baptism. That baptism is spiritual--and we represent it symbolically by performing a ritual.

You wrote, "Exactly. And what Jesus said was that the work of God is this: To *believe* in the One He has sent."

No, that is NOT all that one has to do is to "believe" for even the demons believe and TREMBLE but you are not going to argue that they are saved now are you???

What makes you think that the demons believe in Jesus and have received Him? That doesn't ring true for me.

You call Jesus "Lord, Lord", but you do NOT do the things that He says. (Matthew 7:21, Luke 6:46). This is your *believe* only crowd Faith whether you like it or not. I have been baptised Kevin. I did this because it was important to God that I do this. I just do not think that the ceremony is why I am saved. I am saved because I repented, confessed Jesus is Lord and received Him., and the Holy Spirit. That is the baptism that I am saved by. Not some ritualist *work* of my own. The Bible tells us that there is nothing that we can do to be saved except to believe in Jesus to save us.

I wrote, "Until one has complied with ALL of these conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved. One CANNOT be taught a false gospel or believe that they are saved and expect to go to heaven if they do not obey the will of God. (Matthew 7:21-27)."

To which you replied, "Right--but again, we disagree as to what these conditions are."

Faith, I have asked you for EXAMPLES of ones who were saved the way you claim in the book of Acts, where are your EXAMPLES of those who were saved by *belief* ONLY???

Well it seems you missed all the verses I supplied you with? Maybe in the other thread?

Here they are again:

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forebearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

I can find many more if you'd like me to.

I wrote, "The apostle James said in James 2:20, 26 that, "faith without works is dead". In other words, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH."

To which you replied, "No., actually what James is saying is that *faith* that isn't evidenced by works--is no faith at all. Surely you don't think he and Paul would contradict one another, do you?""

Once again, faith without REPENTANCE, CONFESSION and BAPTISM is a DEAD FAITH. These are NOT works of the law, so NO James and Paul do NOT contradict one another. The *faith* you advocate is one that states that one is saved the moment one believes and that is FALSE.

That is your opinion. I understand James to be saying that true faith will be evidenced by *works* or the *fruit* of the Spirit. If someone claims to have faith--but shows no fruit--they are most likely not saved in the first place because their faith is not real. Otherwise we would see the fruit evidenced by what they do.

You wrote, "The church of Jesus Christ is not some religion or earthbound building--it is His chosen Body of believers. We are universal and we are undivided. Jesus knows who we are. We can only guess....."

That is your OPINION Faith and it is NOT in accordance with the word of God. God is NOT the "author of confusion" but of PEACE so please explain how there can be Christians in different denominations if they are so divided and not one of them have the same doctrine???

Because Christians are united by the truth in Jesus Christ--which is that He died and is risen and will come for those who belong to Him. What church one goes to doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter if we agree about the rapture or the endtimes scenarios or whether Revelation has happened or is still future--the only thing that matters is whether we have come to a saving faith In Jesus to save us. Unfortunately--many religions lead people away from the saving gospel., like the Catholic Church. Every religion on this earth is part of a division--including yours. No earthbound religion could possibly be Christ's one true church. Jesus says it himself-- His kingdom (church) is not of this world. It is therefore--spiritual in nature.

Christ prayed that we would ALL be ONE in John 17:20-22. Christ CANNOT be in all of these religions who claim to have the truth and there are NO Christians outside of the body of Christ.

This is right. Christ is not in any religion. The question is--are we in Him? We are in Him when we receive Him. This is a spiritual truth, Kevin.

There is ONLY one body and that body is the church and this body is NOT spread around in the different religions as you have been misled to believe.

NO., you are right. We are One with Him in spirit--Kevin. We are universal., in spirit.

The ONLY Christians are those who have obeyed the gospel whether you believe it or not. Right., and the gospel says that when you believe in the One He has sent., when you receive Him as a gift--you will not perish- -but WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus will return in flaming fire to take VENGEANCE on those who do NOT know God (yes, those who have never heard of God will be punished) and on those who do NOT obey the gospel. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

Those who have never heard of God...really?

I think the Scriptures reveal that it is those who reject the truth who are condemned. The truth is that Jesus died in our place--and in order for us to be saved, we must believe that He did exactly what God says He did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Faith,

I am guilty of taking this thread WAY off topic.

This is my last post on this thread on this topic.

It is obvious that you believe that one is saved prior to baptism despite what God has PLAINLY stated that baptism (in water) is FOR the remission of sins. That is the problem with most people, they would rather believe what someone has told them instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His word. One CANNOT be saved UNTIL they have WASHED AWAY their sins in the watery grave of baptism. John 3:16 does NOT support your position for this verse states that those who believe in Him "SHOULD NOT PERISH", and NOT "WILL NOT PERISH". Please notice verse 21, "But he who DOES THE TRUTH, comes to the light, THAT HIS DEEDS MAY BE CLEARLY SEEN, that they have been done in God." This is another verse that DESTROYS your assumption that one is saved by "faith only" prior to one being baptized.

1 John 5:13 also does NOT help your case because this was written to those who were already CHRISTIANS. John was NOT writing to tell them HOW to be saved, he was telling them that the things that he wrote were EVIDENCE of the things that they were taught and that they might CONTINUE to believe. He wrote to them so that, they might "KNOW" that they have "ETERNAL LIFE".

If you wish to respond Faith, please take this to the appropriate thread.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.

Faith, I am guilty of taking this thread WAY off topic.

This is my last post on this thread on this topic.

It is obvious that you believe that one is saved prior to baptism despite what God has PLAINLY stated that baptism (in water) is FOR the remission of sins. That is the problem with most people, they would rather believe what someone has told them instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His word. One CANNOT be saved UNTIL they have WASHED AWAY their sins in the watery grave of baptism.

Yes.., and the Bible is clear that only Jesus can do this for us when we receive Him into our hearts and believe it. It is His work mat the cross that accomplishes this.

John 3:16 does NOT support your position for this verse states that those who believe in Him "SHOULD NOT PERISH", and NOT "WILL NOT PERISH". Please notice verse 21, "But he who DOES THE TRUTH, comes to the light, THAT HIS DEEDS MAY BE CLEARLY SEEN, that they have been done in God." This is another verse that DESTROYS your assumption that one is saved by "faith only" prior to one being baptized.

1 John 5:13 also does NOT help your case because this was written to those who were already CHRISTIANS. John was NOT writing to tell them HOW to be saved, he was telling them that the things that he wrote were EVIDENCE of the things that they were taught and that they might CONTINUE to believe. He wrote to them so that, they might "KNOW" that they have "ETERNAL LIFE". Yes--because they believe.

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

If you wish to respond Faith, please take this to the appropriate thread.

Which thread would that be?

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.

Faith,

I have already responded to you in this thread:

Is Baptism Symbolic?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.