The lines are drawn. On one side, the aged Roman Catholic church stands devote in it's structure and teaching. On the other, modern American churches hold steadfast to their biblical upbringing. To the Catholics, the protestants are a rebelious breed, wild and unguided. To the Protestants, the Catholics are mindless robots controlled by human power.

Is everything so clear-cut? Or is there something else involved?

I used the term "modern american churches" to mean the mainstream christian churches in america. Not specifically protestant, because the actual protestant churches, those that developed out of the Roman Catholic church, are actually few in number. However, many of today's churches have stuck to what they believe is scriptural believes, when in fact, they are simply following teachings and theologies of man.

With the protestant reformation, and then the Great-awakening, individuals were able to influence the current teachings significantly. Teachings that seem to be biblically based are simply a curtian of lies, shielding a person's ability to reasonably divide the word of God.

Many churches today stubbornly stick to the GOSPEL TRUTH, which is really nothing more but more teachings of mean, such as Calvin or Luther. They just don't see it this way. They will shake their fingers at the Catholic church until they die,, not realizing that they themselves have allowed their own set of "church fathers" to govern them.

Who will wake up?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004

Answers

Luke? Is this really you?? I never thought I would hear this from you. Welcome to my club.

I think that what you are saying has some truth to it. People don't want their boats rocked and are afraid to wander too far from their boats. But, if you've noticed, this forum has those who have wandered out and have found what they believe to be the truth.

Inevitably, man has a hand in all of our faith systems. "Sola Scriptura" types have to cave-in to the Gospel writers in hopes that they didn't interject their own theology or doctrine. Traditionalists are gonna hope that the same hasn't tainted their traditions. Modern worshippers are left with a trickle-down theology and doctrine. I guess we are in a bad way cuz eventually we will trace back our religious systems to some cloudy foggy origin made by men.

Then, we have to rely on our own understandings or misunderstandings of the Gospels and teachings. Yes, some of us are sleeping while others are still drownsy, but some of us are awake and trying to recall our dreams. So, who is right and who is wrong and who can tell us the difference?

Faith. (no not "Faith" the anti-Catholic.)

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

And, it is that very faith that allows, enables, justifies, establishes, verifies, enlightens, you fill-in the rest, our faith systems in the "church" we attend--even if an "invisible" church.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

rod..., please don't refer to me as anti-Catholic. That is not what I am about. It's more that I am pro-Bible. I speak out against any and all false doctrines.., including those that I feel come from Calvinism., Mormonism.., Lutheranism and Jehovah Witnesses--just to name a few.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Suprise! Gosh, based on this question and a previous post, someone might get the wrong impression.

The motive behind this was a recent discussion with someone who had absolutely no idea about the history of his church. Although usually I will say history doesn't matter so much as doing the right thing, I also find it strange that some don't realize what a corrupt church they are a part of. Then again, maybe it's not so strange.

That is why I think it very important to always seek and learn. A wishy-washy faith, that of no conviction is unhealthy to anybody, even if they are right. Be confident of what you believe. But also be confident in what you don't believe. A good purpose these forums serve is to present other or even strange ideas. Read these. Study the scriptures. Pray for guidance. Then step assuredly in it. If something you believe flatly contradicts the scriptures, then CHANGE for heaven's sake.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

God has a very good reason for extreme scrutiny of our religious teachers. Some day, these people will stand before God and try to explain why they taught such apostacy. Others will have to explain why they followed it.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I'm with you, Luke.

Faith can you say that you are not anti-Catholic? If the shoe fits...

So, don't go disguising yourself in semantics. And, I'm sure that most here are "pro-Bible"; some are more pro-Sola Scriptura than others.

Listen to Luke's previous paragraph about scrutiny of teachers. It would be wise to humble one's arrogance don't you think?

Me? I'm anti-boitic and anti-acid, most of the time.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

rod,

I am not a teacher of the Word--so I don't feel Luke's post addresses me.

I am just an everyday person who likes to debate theology.

What I say here has no more or less effect on people than anything anyone says--including you.

What if you are wrong about your stand? Then you too--will have to answer God on that day.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Everything we say in these forums has an effect on those seeking the truth. Don't fool yourself Faith. Every word you type is scrutinized at different degrees by many people. Some will believe you and some me. You cannot say that you are not a teacher of the word--we live it and teach it whether we like it or not.

I'm glad that there is an awakening to that reality and that we will be scrutinized by our words and actions. Yes, I may be wrong in somethings that I preach, as others may too. I simply wonder if you know how much of an impact your words have.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I hope my words have a bigger impact than the impression I get by any responses that come my way. I am not here for the fun. But I am compelled by Jesus to preach His Word. That is all I can do.

But you were the one pointing fingers at me. So I wondered why you thought that that was appropriate considering the fact that we are all in the same boat.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Something else came to my attention only today. There are some denominations that actually require a person to sign a statement of faith, no, sign an agreement that an individual sees eye to eye with the church's doctrine.

To those who are catholic: I know you have been yelled at many times in this forum for external (not in bible) rules. My comments here are for again, our mainstream american churches, those who oppose everything that smells like catholicism.

I was pondering a simple test tonight that determines who wears the pants in church. (insert remark here). This is a simple quiz, only one question, here it is:

Who makes the rules?

I am not referring to simple traditions, or "no-running" rules. I mean who makes the rules? If your rules are found in the bible, they are probably from Jesus. If not, they are from man. Now, whoever makes the rules, rules the church. Who rules your church now? Who adds to the body of Christ, is it man or God?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I don't know who you are addressing Luke--but I can tell you that my church is a non-denominational Bible believing/based church and Christ definately sets the rules for us.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 26, 2004.

Faith,

If your last post is true, then please explain to me what your church teaches one must do in order to be saved?

Let's see if what your church teaches is in accordance with what God has plainly revealed in His word?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 26, 2004.

Faith, actually, i'm not sure who I'm addressing. That is, I didn't ask which particular church this person belonged to. I didn't for 2 reasons. 1) Ignorance is a bliss. The more I learn the less I want to know. 2) Asking which church a person belongs to when they already know you disapprove is huge conversation stopper. Progress comes to a halt. I'm not out to attack anyone's faith. But faith and doctrine are sort of seperate.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

A pastor once told me that every person has their own way of having faith. This got me to thinking about how different people are and how everyone has their own unique way of understanding things. This got me to weigh how true the pastor's comment was with particular denominations and their doctrines. Of course, this then brings us to questioning whether or not those diverse doctrines can ever be leading to the same Salvation. Are we under God's umbrella or not. Hmmm...

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 26, 2004.

I was only pointing one finger at you, Faith.

Because, you are making some strong accusation against the Catholic Church. There will be some followers passing by who may be swayed by your assertions. Let's hope that, when the smoke clears, things will turn out for the best.

Of course, this goes for anyone who makes strong accusations against another faith system.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Hi Kevin..,

My church teaches that there is nothing that we can *do* to be saved. That being said--Jesus tells us that the work of God is this, "That we believe in the One He sent."

In my church--we must believe in Jesus Christ, and trust in Him to save us.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

This is puzzling to me, Faith. Please clarify your use of the following words:

1. "my"

2. "church"

3. "One"

4. "do"

Also...

Does your "church" have a name?

Does your "church" have members who attend on a regular basis?

(Here is a rather ridiculous question.)Does your "church" have walls?

I'm not trying to be funny with these questions. I'm simply wondering if your "church" fits into the typical description of "church".

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Also:

Which version of John 3:16 do you subscribe to?

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

My church is quite large, actually. By *my* church, I simply mean the church that I am a member of. "One" capitalized in this case is pointing to Jesus. *Do* is not a reference to salvation by works. Yes my church has many walls., and a very large congegration. We pack three Sunday services each week, and even require three shuttle buses to bring people back and forth from the train station in the center of town. In order to alleviate the parking situation, people park there and wait for one of the buses.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

That is wonderful. But, I'm confused about one of your earlier posts in that other forum. You mentioned an "invisible" church. But, you now mention a well established church with a strong membership.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Rod, interesting about the pastor's comment. It brings up this particular "contract church" again. They will not allow anyone to become a member except by a signature of agreement to the church's basic doctrine.

Red Flag#1- This means that the church will allow a liar who fraudulently signed his statement of beliefs but reject a Christian who disagrees with one doctrine.

Well then the church will tell you that their basic doctrines may differ from other's, but that we are all Christians and will be saved. If your doctrine differs, find a place to worship that holds the same beliefs as you do, because that is how a church will grow.

Red Flag#2- Their own basic doctrine is not essential to Christianity?? If they teach the basics, how can they say those that do not follow those essential truths be saved? It seems very clear that in this case they are adding their own doctrine, then making it basic. This is such a mess.

Can this kind of adulturated teaching fall under God's umbrella? I'm not thinking to positively. Rod, i like that you brought up the church questions. What exactly is the church? What is it made of? Shouldn't any christian anywhere be allowed to worship with any other christians? Why are some denominations developing their own unbiblical entry requirements?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith,

If "there is nothing that we can *do* to be saved" as you state above, then why do we need the New Testament???

Do you mean that one is saved by "faith alone"??? If this is the case, then your church does not teach the truth for the Bible does NOT say that one is saved by "faith alone", God CONDEMNS this faith for it is a DEAD faith. (James 2:26).

You also said "*Do* is not a reference to salvation by works", please explain what you mean "by works"??? Which one of these is considered a work - Faith, Repentance, Confession, Baptism??? In your answer, please provide scriptural references that classify these as works.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 27, 2004.

rod...,

All believers are part of Christ's body..which is an invisable church, in that there is no one building or religion that we can be found. We are a universal body..with Christ as our head.

But as individuals--we need to find a physical church of believers to worship God with. The Bible gives us an example in the Scriptures about this.

We are each responsible then, to find a church organization that is most biblical. There are plenty of churches out there., but we must find the one that serves the Living God in light of Scripture.

But there is no one religion or church that is the hierarchy over Christ's body. And you can't prove from the Scriptures that there should be.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Kevin, give Faith credit. She didn't use the word "only." I don't know really what Faith believes about being saved. She said believe in Christ and trust him. This isn't untrue. I’ll wait until the bell rings before going to class.

I personally say that "Yes, there is nothing I can do that will earn my salvation, only action that I take to receive the promise of it." This itself can probably be torn apart in some fashion, but it is a pretty clear indication to me that a) I am not saved because of a debt God owes me, and that b) I am saved because I responded to God's promise.

Of course Kevin, we are in full agreement that the Sinner's Prayer or any variation is an unbiblical response to the work of faith.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Yes, some will interpret "responded" as work of man. You can't always win. Any verb used will imply action. Therefore any verb used to describe what is needed for salvation means that there is something a person must DO. These are works of God. They are not excluded by the verses in Romans or Ephesians

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Kevin..,

One is saved by faith., and faith comes by hearing the gospel. Surely we can hear the gospel without opening the Bible--but somewhere, someone must open the Scriptures to know what the gospel is proclaiming. Tradition can only get us so far.

The only work required of us by God is to *believe.* That is what the Bible says.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

nvm

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

AT one time

Traditions were all they had in order to "hear" the Gospels. So, "Tradition can only get us so far" would take one as far as needed--Salvation.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 27, 2004.

Are you kidding? rod?

The Christian community has always had inspired Scripture...the Old Testament was preached by Jesus. The New Testament was in thew making right away--and these people had the benefit of the apostles themselves and next generation church fathers who used the letters and gospels as their guide.

Time is an enemy to Tradition--which is why God would never have relied on word of mouth.

Jesus trashes men's tradition--and the book of Acts reveals that the Bereans were smart because they cross referenced everything that Paul was teaching--with the Scriptures, to be sure that what he taught was in harmony with God's Word.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "One is saved by faith., and faith comes by hearing the gospel."

Yes, that is a TRUE statement. One is saved by FAITH, but NOT by "faith only" as those in the denominational world teach.

You wrote, "Surely we can hear the gospel without opening the Bible--but somewhere, someone must open the Scriptures to know what the gospel is proclaiming. Tradition can only get us so far."

What is the gospel Faith??? And does one have to "obey the gospel"???

You wrote, "The only work required of us by God is to *believe.* That is what the Bible says."

Yes, faith is considered a "work" for that is exactly what God says. However do you believe that "belief" is the only thing that one must do in order to be saved???

If so, what about Repentance, Confession and Baptism???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 27, 2004.

Repentance, confession and Baptism--all take place when we receive Christ. First we recognize our sin, we confess it and turn away from it--towards God. This is being born again...it is the Word of God that reveals our sinful ways and our need for Jesus. Baptism is what happens to us spiritually, though a ritual act as a testimony to this faith is something God wants us to do--as exampled even by Jesus. But that Baptism is not a saving Baptism. John the Baptist even said that he baptised with water--but that Jesus was bringing a better Baptism.., the saving Baptism which is in the Holy Spirit.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 27, 2004.

Faith, first you should know that I stand totally opposite of your definition of baptism. I'm not going to dwell on this point specifically. We can go back to the Baptism Thread do discuss such things.

However, this does bring up an interesting example of inherited faith, that is, doctrines passed along that have no biblical foundation. Where did Faith's definition come from? It isn't found in the scriptures. Almost everytime a "faith only" advocate is asked to provide scriptural referrence for a baptism definition, the return is a series of scriptures about faith and believing, and in no way even mention immersion or the concept thereof.

Why? Because this is how they are taught. They are told to give an unbiblical theory and then turn to all of the wrong scriptures to back it up, and then they are told that this is sola scriptura.

I didn't know interjected definitions still counted as sola scriptura.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

I'm sorry Luke--but I was raised Catholic and inherited the belief that Baptism (the ritualistic act on our part) actually saved us, guaranteed heaven.

The Scriptures reveal what true baptism is--but even that--I came across after I was born again. I didn't even understand what had happened to me. I was a non-practicing person just minding my own business. I happened to be in a church where the Scriptures were being read, and suddenly-something came over me and I just knew that this Bible was God's Word. He was talking directly to me and I fell on my face! I didn't know a thing about repentance, confession and receiveing the Holy Spirit. It just happened to me. I walked away that day--filled with new life and new hope. It was then that I determined that I should read the Bible. That was an undertaking that my husband laughed at me for. But as I began to absorb the Scriptures- --low and behold, I started reading about the very thing that happened to me.

The Bible tells us that baptism is a spiritual rebirth. Performing the ritual is just an outward testimony, so that you can share your faith with others. What is the saving moment? For me--it wasn't when I was emmersed in a pool of water in front of my congregation--but it was the day, quite sometime before then--when I was washed new by His Word, and I recognized Jesus and accepted Him, that saved me.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

I understand where you are coming from Faith. Baptism has been made into some ritual that we do. I really am not totally familiar with the Catholic teaching of it, however, when Peter wrote "this baptism doth save us now" I tend to believe him.

I think it is wonderful that you committed your life to him. I will never dismiss this at all. It is very vital to your walk with him.

I agree that baptism is a spiritual act. But just as sin is both spiritual and physical, baptism is both spiritual and physical. I'm sorry that it was taught as some ritual to you, because the Scriptures never teach it that way. Baptism is a gift of God, and has nothing to do with a public recognition. Someone made the comparrison of baptism to surgery. We have to take a step into the hospital, but the surgeon is the one who does the work. The same is with baptism. God is at work, not man. Can man forgive sins?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

So this is where I am at: Is there a church that is absolutely accurate in everything they teach? I really have my doubts. More than likely, I myself hold to certain beliefs that are nothing more than the inherited faith, passed on from person to person. So what is a person to do?

Assuming that I'll disagree with at least one point of every church, it is important that I, and others, be a part of one that has the essentials right. These are the things that beliefs matter in. No doctrines or traditions. Jesus Christ is the way. Can any Christian church disregard that?

I don't agree with many things the Catholic Church teaches/practices, but I know better than to accuse them of things that I myself might be guilty of. This kind of self-condemnation is hard to deal with. Paul warned of it. Let's be more careful to remove the plank from our eye before pulling the speck from another's.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 28, 2004.

I agree Luke--that we have a responsibility to accept Christ. That is the only work we can do. For me, baptism in water, like the kind that John the Baptist performed and like the kind we do in churches today-- is just a testimony of our faith and a proclamation about the spiritual baptism that has already taken place in our hearts when we believed and received Christ.

I think the act of water baptism is important. God wants us to do this. But I don't think it is the saving moment.

No, man cannot forgive sin--only God can. Our sin is forgiven--past, present and future, the moment we repent (turn from sin and towards God) and confess that Jesus is Lord. That is the moment that we are born again and we receive the Holy Spirit (Jesus' baptism).

That is what is revealed to me in the Scriptures.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Repentance, confession and Baptism--all take place when we receive Christ."

I thought you said earlier that one is saved by "belief" and now are you adding "Repentance, Confession and Baptism" into the mix??? We are saved by many things, but most certainly one is NOT saved by "faith only" as David among others would have you believe. One is not saved until they have obeyed the gospel for it is the gospel that is God's power to salvation. (Romans 1:16).

You wrote, "First we recognize our sin, we confess it and turn away from it--towards God. This is being born again..."

Where does the Bible say that repentance and confession of our sin is being born again? Please provide the Scriptural references that state this to be true. There are 3 place in the Bible that speak of one being "born again" and the 3 instances are in John 3:3, John 3:7 and 1 Peter 1:23. Jesus said in John 3:5, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

More on this later.

You wrote, "it is the Word of God that reveals our sinful ways and our need for Jesus."

AMEN to this statement for Scripture states: "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12).

You wrote, "Baptism is what happens to us spiritually, though a ritual act as a testimony to this faith is something God wants us to do--as exampled even by Jesus. But that Baptism is not a saving Baptism."

If baptism does not save, then please explain how the apostle Peter in his first gospel sermon told the Jews when they asked, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;" (Acts 2:37-38). Did Peter lie to them when he said that baptism was FOR the remission of sins??? Who was it that told you that baptism does not save? Did you read this in the Bible, or did someone tell you this? If it is in the Bible, please provide the reference that states that baptism does NOT save.

You wrote, "John the Baptist even said that he baptised with water--but that Jesus was bringing a better Baptism.., the saving Baptism which is in the Holy Spirit."

Faith, there is NO SUCH thing as "Holy Spirit baptism" and those who have told you this are NOT speaking the truth for there are ONLY two instances of Holy Spirit baptism in the New Testament, once on the day of Pentecost on the apostles and the second was when the Holy Spirit was poured out on Cornelius and his household. If you believe that Holy Spirit baptism saves, then you ought to be able to prove this from the New Testament.

Please answer these two questions: What is the gospel Faith??? Does one have to "obey the gospel" in order to be saved???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

Kevin..

Being born-again by the washing of the Word is a spiritual baptism-- and it is that baptism that Peter speaks of.

I haven't time to look up Scripture just yet, because I have company, but I will find it later and post it to you.

For me--when I believed.., and I received Christ--I was repenting, confessing Jesus is Lord and receiving the Holy Spirit--all at that moment. That is being renewed or regenerated or born-again. And it all came because I believed and had faith in Jesus to save me. I recognized my sinful self and I turned away from that old me.., in a second, one moments notice--I was forever changed. That is my experience.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

The gospel is the "good news" that Christ died for us, that he paid the penalty for our sin. Believe and receive this gift of salvation. That is the gospel. How do we obey it? We receive Christ....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Being born-again by the washing of the Word is a spiritual baptism-- and it is that baptism that Peter speaks of."

Ephesians 5:26 to which you allude is a clear reference to John 3:5 in that one must be born again by two things: 1) born of water = baptism (in water) and NO this is NOT a "spiritual baptism" nor is there any such thing as a "spiritual baptism". If this baptism is ONLY a "spiritual baptism", then please explain to me how when Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch, how he was able to make the statment in Acts 8:36, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" if this is a "spiritual baptism"??? We are also born again by 2) the Spirit for that is how one gets faith for Romans 10:17 states, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

You wrote, "For me--when I believed.., and I received Christ--I was repenting, confessing Jesus is Lord and receiving the Holy Spirit--all at that moment. That is being renewed or regenerated or born-again. And it all came because I believed and had faith in Jesus to save me. I recognized my sinful self and I turned away from that old me.., in a second, one moments notice--I was forever changed. That is my experience."

Faith, that may be your experience, but when you say that You "believed..., then I received Christ, unfortunately that is NOT what the Scripture teaches what one must DO in order to be saved. If you believe that you were saved before you were baptized, then you have not obeyed the gospel of Christ. If this is true that you were saved the moment that you believed, please explain to me how the "blood of Christ" was applied to your soul to wash away all of your sins when you believed???

You wrote, "The gospel is the "good news" that Christ died for us, that he paid the penalty for our sin. Believe and receive this gift of salvation. That is the gospel."

Yes, the gospel is the "good news" not only that Christ died for us, and that he paid the penalty for our sin, but the FACT that Christ DIED, was BURIED and was RESURRECTED on the third day. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

You wrote, "How do we obey it? We receive Christ...."

No, that is not true, one CANNOT be saved by only "receiving Christ". There is a bit more to it than that. There are some things that one must DO in order to be saved.

First, one must HEAR the gospel for "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". Romans 10:17.

Second, one must BELIEVE in the gospel of Christ for "without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6, Mark 1:15.

Third, one must REPENT of their sins for "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent". Acts 17:30.

Fourth, one must CONFESS the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God for the Bible says, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation". Romans 10:9-10.

FIfth, one must be BAPTIZED For the Remission of Past Sins for Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". Mark 16:16.

Sixth, one must remain FAITHFUL for Jesus said in Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Until one has complied with the conditions of salvation, they are NOT saved.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

So how would you explain the repentant thief on the cross at Jesus' crucifixion?

It would seem that he repented., acknowledged that he was a sinner. He acknowledged that Jesus was sinless., and he asked Jesus to save him. And Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Him.

You don't think that this thief experienced spiritual baptism? We know he didn't go through a ritual of any sorts--yet he is saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Titus 3:5-6

"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior..."

That is the spiritual baptism that Jesus brought to us-- the Holy Spirit. Water is symbolic of a deeper truth.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 28, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "So how would you explain the repentant thief on the cross at Jesus' crucifixion? It would seem that he repented., acknowledged that he was a sinner. He acknowledged that Jesus was sinless., and he asked Jesus to save him. And Jesus told him that he would be in paradise with Him. You don't think that this thief experienced spiritual baptism? We know he didn't go through a ritual of any sorts--yet he is saved."

Who says the thief on the cross was not baptized in water prior to his crucifixion? Textual evidence suggests that he was (Matt. 3:5-6). However, whether the thief was baptized for the remission of sins has no bearing on whether we must be. He lived BEFORE the death and resurrection of Christ and BEFORE the Great Commission command to be baptized was even given (Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). New Testament baptism, unlike the baptism of John or Jesus, was first preached and applied beginning in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost. PRIOR to the cross the Old Testament was in effect. The religion of Christianity and the necessity of water immersion came into effect AFTER the cross (Rom. 7:4-6; Col. 2:14; Heb. 9:15-17). So the thief was NOT even subject to the command to be baptized into Christ and His death (Rom. 6:3-4) - Christ had not died! The thief is NO more a model for our response to God than is Noah, Moses or David.

You quoted Titus 3:5-6, then wrote, "That is the spiritual baptism that Jesus brought to us-- the Holy Spirit. Water is symbolic of a deeper truth."

Then you quoted the words of John the Baptism, "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

My reply: The ONE BAPTISM of the New Testament is many times, VERY misunderstood. First off, Baptism is an ACT of OBEDIENCE.

Baptism is , "The PLEDGE of a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward GOD." Just like 1 Peter 3:21 plainly declares, An act of OBEDIENCE.

The WORD Baptism, is a Transliteration, not a Translation. This means that instead of simply translating the Greek word BAPTIZO into the English word - DIP, PLUNGE, or IMMERSE, What they did, was make a whole NEW English word to define the Biblical act of immersion, and they called it - BAPTIZE.

Now the biggest misunderstanding concerning New Testament Baptism, is the confusion between;

1). The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

2). Water Baptism (by immersion) INTO Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and

3). The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, given by the laying on of the Apostles hands (No longer existent).

O.K.

1). The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This baptism ONLY happened twice in the New Testament. Once for the Jews in Acts 2:4, and once for the Gentiles in Acts 10:44.

This occurrence was prophesied by John in Luke 3:16 "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." And of course this was also prophesied by the prophet Joel and was fulfilled in Acts 2:4. Now notice carefully as the Apostle Peter recounts the second occurrence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when it was bestowed upon the Gentiles in Cornelius' house approximately SEVEN (7) years later. In Acts 11:15 Peter declares, "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning." Now, if this Baptism was a regular occurrence (like some denominations profess) Why? would Peter refer back to an occurrence that happened 7 years earlier? Why wouldn't he just say; "As is happening to Christians all the time."?

The answer is; Because it was only a TWO (2) time occurrence in the First Century (New Testament).

The purpose of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was to;

1) Usher in the Kingdom (Mark 9:1) 2) Bestow miraculous powers upon the Apostles (Acts 1:8) and to; 3) Bring the Gentiles, as well, into the Kingdom (Acts 10:45).

2). Water Baptism (by immersion) INTO Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift (indwelling seal) of the Holy Spirit.

This Baptism - IS - the ONE Baptism of God's New Covenant between God and all people after the death of Jesus Christ, spoken of by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4:5. This is the one Baptism of Colossians 2:12 that Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 declares - 'Puts us INTO Christ'.

The one Baptism which puts us INTO God's New Covenant as preached by the Apostle Peter in ACTS 2:38. The one Baptism that is symbolized BY (not symbolic OF) the water that took the sinful people away from Noah. The Baptism that NOW washes away our sins (Acts 22:16) by putting us INTO Christ and covering us with His blood. The ONE Baptism that SAVES us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ spoken by Peter. (1 Peter 3:21).

3). The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (given by the laying on of the Apostles hands - no longer existent).

This is NOT really a Baptism, however it is far too often mistaken as a Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as in Acts 19:1-6. While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." Now notice here closely, how Paul immediately and directly connects 'Receiving the Holy Spirit' -with- 'Water Baptism' (Baptism INTO the name of the Lord Jesus) So Paul asked, "Then what 'BAPTISM' did you receive ?"

Why would Paul ask this question if in fact the seal of the Holy Spirit was 'NOT' given in Baptism ??

However, just like God declares in Acts 2:38 , The indwelling seal of the Holy Spirit - IS - given to a repentant sinner, when they are Baptized INTO God's ONE church.

"John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

And so at this point these people were now sealed with the gift of God's Holy Spirit that they received in Baptism just as Acts 2:38 declares. However now Paul proceeds to place his hands on them in order to give them, two of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Now, because the Baptism of the Holy Spirit only happened TWICE in the New Testament, and, Receiving the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, (given by the laying on of the Apostles hands) would end when the last of the Apostles died,

And because God (through Paul) declares in the book of Ephesians (4:5) that from THAT point on, there would ONLY be ONE Baptism,

This leaves the ONLY option of the ONE Baptism to be that of; 2). Water Baptism (by immersion) INTO Jesus Christ FOR the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift (indwelling seal) of the Holy Spirit.

That is the TRUTH about baptism.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 28, 2004.

Well., that is your interpretation.

Titus 3:5-6 "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior..."

That speaks to all of us.

There is no mention that we need to go through a ritual of dipping in water in order to be saved. Many places in the Bible tell us that we need to believe in the One God has sent and we are saved. Even in Peter.., He says "believe" and be baptised. We are baptised the moment we believe...by Jesus who gives us new life--he washes us clean and we then have the Holy Spirit in us. This is the saving baptism.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 29, 2004.

Faith,

Once again that is NOT my interpretation, that is EXACLTY what the word of God teaches, you can either accept it, or reject it there is NO middle ground.

You wrote, "There is no mention that we need to go through a ritual of dipping in water in order to be saved. Many places in the Bible tell us that we need to believe in the One God has sent and we are saved. Even in Peter.., He says "believe" and be baptised. We are baptised the moment we believe...by Jesus who gives us new life--he washes us clean and we then have the Holy Spirit in us. This is the saving baptism."

I suppose that passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 that state that BAPTISM SAVES do not mean anything to you do they Faith???

One CANNOT "PUT ON CHRIST" (Galatians 3:27) UNTIL they have been baptized IN WATER for the remission of their sins. The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians for being carnal and playing favorites and also gave a CLEAR REFERENCE that to be OF CHRIST, one must be BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13. Whether you choose to believe it or not, BAPTISM SAVES for this is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches. Ignore this PLAIN teaching at your own peril.

To claim that one is "baptized the moment they believe" is NOT what the word of God states. You have been misled. Baptism is a BURIAL and there is NO MENTION in the word of God that one is "baptized" as you so state.

Please point out the passages that state that one is "baptized the moment they believe"???

Is there more than one baptism today Faith?

How is the blood of Christ applied to one's soul Faith?

Please give some examples in the book of Acts how one was saved according to the plan of salvation that you have outlined?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 29, 2004.

Faith, Once again that is NOT my interpretation, that is EXACLTY what the word of God teaches, you can either accept it, or reject it there is NO middle ground.

No Kevin--it is your interpretation. Almost any religion or church will claim the same thing. Jehovah Witnesses are convicted that they have it right, for example. So is the Roman Catholic Church utterly convinced that they are right. You can't just claim that this is clear Scripture. I see the Scriptures perfectly clear as well. And I disagree with you.

You wrote, "There is no mention that we need to go through a ritual of dipping in water in order to be saved. Many places in the Bible tell us that we need to believe in the One God has sent and we are saved. Even in Peter.., He says "believe" and be baptised. We are baptised the moment we believe...by Jesus who gives us new life--he washes us clean and we then have the Holy Spirit in us. This is the saving baptism."

I believe that by "baptism" is meant *spiritual* in that through Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in those verses that suggests we need to do a ritualistic thing to be saved. The baptism is a washing and renewal that can only come by receiving the Holy Spirit.

I suppose that passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 that state that BAPTISM SAVES do not mean anything to you do they Faith???

Like I said--it means something different than you say--for me.

One CANNOT "PUT ON CHRIST" (Galatians 3:27) UNTIL they have been baptized IN WATER for the remission of their sins. The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians for being carnal and playing favorites and also gave a CLEAR REFERENCE that to be OF CHRIST, one must be BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13. Whether you choose to believe it or not, BAPTISM SAVES for this is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches. Ignore this PLAIN teaching at your own peril.

It just depends on what you believe Kevin. The baptism that saves is not John the baptists water ritual. The Bible is repleat with messages that we are saved by Christ and His redemptive work at the cross. We are cleansed by our faith. The watewr ritual is just a symbolic gesture to express a baptism that has already occured in the heart

To claim that one is "baptized the moment they believe" is NOT what the word of God states. You have been misled. Baptism is a BURIAL and there is NO MENTION in the word of God that one is "baptized" as you so state.

"We are buried with Christ when we become His--through faith, by believing in Him and what He has done to save us. We cannot save ourselves.

Please point out the passages that state that one is "baptized the moment they believe"???

Is there more than one baptism today Faith?

How is the blood of Christ applied to one's soul Faith?

Please give some examples in the book of Acts how one was saved according to the plan of salvation that you have outlined?

More than just giving you verses to support my position--which I think I have already done, let me ask you this? What condemns a man?

I think that the answer is unbelief. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told that a man was condemned to hell because he didn't get a water ritual performed.

Even in this:

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (NIV)

Notice that this verse says that whoever does not believe will be condemned--it says nothing about the lack of baptism being the reason.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "No Kevin--it is your interpretation. Almost any religion or church will claim the same thing. Jehovah Witnesses are convicted that they have it right, for example. So is the Roman Catholic Church utterly convinced that they are right. You can't just claim that this is clear Scripture. I see the Scriptures perfectly clear as well. And I disagree with you."

Once again Faith, that is NOT my interpretation. You can CLAIM that is my interpretation all you want but you are mistaken. No, the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have it right, nor does the Roman Catholic Church have it right. Yes, I can CLAIM that it is CLEAR from Scripture for that is EXACTLY what Scripture states.

You say that you SEE the Scriptures perfectly clear as well, but that is NOT the truth. Without OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL, no one who has lived since Jesus died on the cross will be saved, it is that simple. You can disagree with me all you want, but you are really disagreeing with God for He is the one who has given us His plan of salvation. If you believe that you were saved before you were baptized, then you have been MISLED.

You wrote, "I believe that by "baptism" is meant *spiritual* in that through Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in those verses that suggests we need to do a ritualistic thing to be saved. The baptism is a washing and renewal that can only come by receiving the Holy Spirit."

Faith, you are indeed mistaken for baptism is NOT "spiritual" NOR does one receive the Holy Spirit without OBEDIENCE to the gospel. (See Acts 5:32). Must one be baptized in water, or is your baptism only "spiritual"??? If baptism is only "spiritual", then please explain why water baptism is practiced today??? If baptism is ONLY a "ritual", please explain why Saul was told to WASH AWAY HIS SINS by being baptized in Acts 22:16???

I wrote, "I suppose that passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 that state that BAPTISM SAVES do not mean anything to you do they Faith???"

To which you replied, "Like I said--it means something different than you say--for me."

No, Faith that CANNOT be the TRUTH for the word of God can ONLY be interpreted ONE WAY. This is why we have so many different religions in the world because one claims "I do not see it that way, or that is your interpretation". There is ONLY one correct interpretation and that is that baptism is FOR the remission of sins which is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches on this subject. Just because you do not believe that baptism saves does not make your view the correct one and indeed it is NOT the correct view. I wrote, "One CANNOT "PUT ON CHRIST" (Galatians 3:27) UNTIL they have been baptized IN WATER for the remission of their sins. The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians for being carnal and playing favorites and also gave a CLEAR REFERENCE that to be OF CHRIST, one must be BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13. Whether you choose to believe it or not, BAPTISM SAVES for this is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches. Ignore this PLAIN teaching at your own peril."

To which you replied, "It just depends on what you believe Kevin."

No Faith, it does NOT depend on what "you believe". As I have stated and will continue to state, it is what the word of God SAYS on any doctrine that is the TRUTH. One CANNOT honestly read what I quoted from the word of God and say that baptism does NOT save. You are NOT arguing with me, you are arguing with God. One is NOT a Christian until they have had their sins WASHED AWAY in the watery grave of baptism. It is that SIMPLE.

You continued with, "The baptism that saves is not John the baptists water ritual."

Really now Faith, how can you claim that the baptism of John the Baptist was NOT for the remission of sin??? The Bible CLEARLY states that his baptism was a "baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins " (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3). Are you now going to argue with God and call Him a LIAR??? Those who refused the baptism of John the Baptist, were they saved??? Yes or No. If your answer is Yes, please give book, chapter and verse of how these people were saved in your reply.

You continued with, "The Bible is repleat with messages that we are saved by Christ and His redemptive work at the cross. We are cleansed by our faith."

Yes, we are saved by Christ and His redemptive work on the cross. Please explain to me Faith when is the blood of Christ applied to our souls??? Is it applied to our souls the moment one believes in Christ??? If so, where is your Scripture to back up this claim?

You continued with, "The watewr ritual is just a symbolic gesture to express a baptism that has already occured in the heart"

Where is it written in Scripture that water baptism is just a "symbolic gesture to express a baptism that has already occurred in the heart"??? The TRUTH of the matter is BAPTISM is NOT symbolic, baptism is a BURIAL. Jesus shed His blood when he died on the cross, and since we are BAPTIZED into Jesus death, that is where we contact the blood of Christ and are saved. (Romans 6:2-8). Once again, this is NOT my OPINION, it is what the word of God teaches.

I asked you the question, "Please point out the passages that state that one is "baptized the moment they believe"???" You claim that you have done this, but I have not seen them to date. Titus 3:5 does NOT support your position.

I wrote, "Is there more than one baptism today Faith?" Still waiting for your reply.

I wrote, "How is the blood of Christ applied to one's soul Faith?" Still waiting for your reply. I wrote, "Please give some examples in the book of Acts how one was saved according to the plan of salvation that you have outlined?"

To which you replied, "More than just giving you verses to support my position--which I think I have already done, let me ask you this? What condemns a man? I think that the answer is unbelief. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told that a man was condemned to hell because he didn't get a water ritual performed. "

No Faith you are indeed MISTAKEN again. It is NOT "unbelief" that condemns a man, it is SIN that condemns a man. (Romans 5:12, James 1:15).

You continued with, "Even in this: 15 He said to them, ?Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (NIV) Notice that this verse says that whoever does not believe will be condemned--it says nothing about the lack of baptism being the reason."

In the first part of this verse Jesus gave terms of salvation (He who believes and is baptized will be saved); in the second part of this verse He gave one term of condemnation (but he who does not believe will be condemned). BOTH Faith AND Baptism are ESSENTIAL to salvation. Whereas lack of faith is enough to condemn one for one will NOT be baptized if they do NOT believe. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). If a person does not believe, he is condemned already. Baptism ALONE cannot save; faith ALONE cannot save.

Jesus said, "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.''

Furthermore, no construction can be properly put on one part of a passage that makes it contradict another part of the same passage -- or of any other plain Scripture.

Faith, I guess you believe that God did not really mean what He said in Mark 16:16, or 2 Peter 3:21, or Acts 2:38 or Acts 22:16 when He said that Baptism SAVES. You do not come right out and call God a LIAR, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing when you say that one can be saved prior to being baptized.

It is God, not fallible humanity, who has elected to focus upon baptism as the dividing line between the saved and the lost.

It is only the most foolish of people who would dare to deny this FACT of eternal significance.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith says, "It just depends on what you believe Kevin."

Ahhh, yes, Faith, the False Religion of Relativity . . . the fatal flaw of Protestantism!

Have fun, Kev!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 30, 2004.

Gail, you have a good way of summerizing an entire thread.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith, You wrote, "No Kevin--it is your interpretation. Almost any religion or church will claim the same thing. Jehovah Witnesses are convicted that they have it right, for example. So is the Roman Catholic Church utterly convinced that they are right. You can't just claim that this is clear Scripture. I see the Scriptures perfectly clear as well. And I disagree with you."

Once again Faith, that is NOT my interpretation. You can CLAIM that is my interpretation all you want but you are mistaken. No, the Jehovahs Witnesses do not have it right, nor does the Roman Catholic Church have it right. Yes, I can CLAIM that it is CLEAR from Scripture for that is EXACTLY what Scripture states.

Kevin--whether you recognize it or not--you are interpreting Scripure. That is all any of us do. You can claim that your interpretaion is the right one. And I can claim the same thing, whether you agree or not.

You say that you SEE the Scriptures perfectly clear as well, but that is NOT the truth.

That is your opinion Kevin, even if you disagree.

Without OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL, no one who has lived since Jesus died on the cross will be saved, it is that simple. You can disagree with me all you want, but you are really disagreeing with God for He is the one who has given us His plan of salvation. If you believe that you were saved before you were baptized, then you have been MISLED.

Sorry Kevin--but obedience to the gospel means to repent (Turn from sin), confess (that Jesus is Lord) and be baptised (washed clean by the blood of Jesus--and receive the Holy Spirit). This happens the moment we receive Christ as our Savior. It is called being born- again.

You wrote, "I believe that by "baptism" is meant *spiritual* in that through Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in those verses that suggests we need to do a ritualistic thing to be saved. The baptism is a washing and renewal that can only come by receiving the Holy Spirit."

Faith, you are indeed mistaken for baptism is NOT "spiritual" NOR does one receive the Holy Spirit without OBEDIENCE to the gospel. (See Acts 5:32). Must one be baptized in water, or is your baptism only "spiritual"??? If baptism is only "spiritual", then please explain why water baptism is practiced today??? If baptism is ONLY a "ritual", please explain why Saul was told to WASH AWAY HIS SINS by being baptized in Acts 22:16???

Acts 22:16 says, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptised and wash your sins away--calling on his name."

To me, there is no reason that I can't interpret that verse to be saying..,be baptised and wash away your sins by calling on Jesus. This is receiving Him and being born-again.

I wrote, "I suppose that passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 that state that BAPTISM SAVES do not mean anything to you do they Faith???"

To which you replied, "Like I said--it means something different than you say--for me."

No, Faith that CANNOT be the TRUTH for the word of God can ONLY be interpreted ONE WAY.

Yes, I know this Kevin. I just disagree that it has to be your way.

This is why we have so many different religions in the world because one claims "I do not see it that way, or that is your interpretation". There is ONLY one correct interpretation and that is that baptism is FOR the remission of sins which is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches on this subject.

Well what makes you any different than all the others? You are just one more religious movement added to the mix. Thjat is why I don't believe that Christ's true church can be any religion at all.

Just because you do not believe that baptism saves does not make your view the correct one and indeed it is NOT the correct view.

You should reflect my position better. I do believe that baptism saves--I just don't think that the saving baptism is the act of a ritualist emmersion in water. I think that that act is symbolic of a deeper truth.

I wrote, "One CANNOT "PUT ON CHRIST" (Galatians 3:27) UNTIL they have been baptized IN WATER for the remission of their sins. Sorry Kevin--but you added the *in water* part, as we both know Galatians 3:27 does not say that.

The apostle Paul chided the Corinthians for being carnal and playing favorites and also gave a CLEAR REFERENCE that to be OF CHRIST, one must be BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13.

Again, no proof that this baptism is a ritualistic act. Not even close.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, BAPTISM SAVES for this is EXACTLY what the word of God teaches. Ignore this PLAIN teaching at your own peril." Again, I don't ignore it. I just believe what the Holy Spirit has led me to understand. And I understand that the ritual is symbolic. I have been baptised in water twice. Once as a baby in the Catholic Church and once just 6 years ago. So I guess I'm covered, huh?

To which you replied, "It just depends on what you believe Kevin."

No Faith, it does NOT depend on what "you believe". As I have stated and will continue to state, it is what the word of God SAYS on any doctrine that is the TRUTH. One CANNOT honestly read what I quoted from the word of God and say that baptism does NOT save.

No Kevin--but one does not have to believe that the water ritual is what is meant.

You are NOT arguing with me, you are arguing with God. One is NOT a Christian until they have had their sins WASHED AWAY in the watery grave of baptism. It is that SIMPLE. Yes--and one does that by receiving Christ as their Savior. He washes away our sins and He cleanses us by His blood. He gives us His Holy Spirit. We die with Him when we receive Him. We will raise with Him on that last day. The ritual just expresses this deeper truth.

You continued with, "The baptism that saves is not John the baptists water ritual."

Really now Faith, how can you claim that the baptism of John the Baptist was NOT for the remission of sin??? The Bible CLEARLY states that his baptism was a "baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins " (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3). John was preparing the way--which is in Jesus Christ. His baptism was for a visible sign that that a person had decided to change his or her life--giving up the sinful and selfish way of living and turning to God. The baptism that he was preaching was not the water baptism that he was practicing--but he was doing this to symbolize the real baptism that Jesus brings to us when we trust in Him. It was symbolic of what was to come.

Are you now going to argue with God and call Him a LIAR??? Those who refused the baptism of John the Baptist, were they saved??? Yes or No. If your answer is Yes, please give book, chapter and verse of how these people were saved in your reply.

If anyone rejected John's baptism--they were actually rejecting Jesus. So who is to say? Does the Bible comment on such a scenario? Like I pointed out earlier--the thief on the cross was likely not baptised by John. He was a criminal. Yet he was saved by his repentance, confession and faith in Jesus Christ.

You are the one who said people before Christ's sacrifice at Calvary didn't need to be baptised.

You continued with, "The Bible is repleat with messages that we are saved by Christ and His redemptive work at the cross. We are cleansed by our faith."

Yes, we are saved by Christ and His redemptive work on the cross. Please explain to me Faith when is the blood of Christ applied to our souls??? Is it applied to our souls the moment one believes in Christ??? If so, where is your Scripture to back up this claim?

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forebearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

You continued with, "The water ritual is just a symbolic gesture to express a baptism that has already occured in the heart"

Where is it written in Scripture that water baptism is just a "symbolic gesture to express a baptism that has already occurred in the heart"??? The TRUTH of the matter is BAPTISM is NOT symbolic, baptism is a BURIAL. Jesus shed His blood when he died on the cross, and since we are BAPTIZED into Jesus death, that is where we contact the blood of Christ and are saved. (Romans 6:2-8). Once again, this is NOT my OPINION, it is what the word of God teaches.

This is indeed your interpretation Kevin. All of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were indeed baptised into his death. This is symbolic Kevin. And so is the water ritual--symbolic of a deeper truth.

I asked you the question, "Please point out the passages that state that one is "baptized the moment they believe"???" You claim that you have done this, but I have not seen them to date. Titus 3:5 does NOT support your position.

Again, I appreciate your opinion., but I think that Titus 3:5 shows us that we are not saved by anything we do--but because of what Jesus has done.

"...he saved us---not because of righteous things we had done---but because of his mercy. He saved us--through the washing of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3:5

I wrote, "Is there more than one baptism today Faith?" Still waiting for your reply. There is one baptism which is spiritual--and expressed in a ritual.

I wrote, "How is the blood of Christ applied to one's soul Faith?" Still waiting for your reply. I wrote, "Please give some examples in the book of Acts how one was saved according to the plan of salvation that you have outlined?"

Answered above

To which you replied, "More than just giving you verses to support my position--which I think I have already done, let me ask you this? What condemns a man? I think that the answer is unbelief. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told that a man was condemned to hell because he didn't get a water ritual performed. "

No Faith you are indeed MISTAKEN again. It is NOT "unbelief" that condemns a man, it is SIN that condemns a man. (Romans 5:12, James 1:15).

You continued with, "Even in this: 15 He said to them, ?Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (NIV) Notice that this verse says that whoever does not believe will be condemned--it says nothing about the lack of baptism being the reason."

In the first part of this verse Jesus gave terms of salvation (He who believes and is baptized will be saved); in the second part of this verse He gave one term of condemnation (but he who does not believe will be condemned). BOTH Faith AND Baptism are ESSENTIAL to salvation. Whereas lack of faith is enough to condemn one for one will NOT be baptized if they do NOT believe. Without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). If a person does not believe, he is condemned already. Baptism ALONE cannot save; faith ALONE cannot save.

Well Kevin--again, your interpretation. The way I understand God's Word here is that when we believe--first qualifier, we are baptised. When we don't believe--we are condemned:

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Jesus said, "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.''

We just disagree on what being baptised is Kevin. You think it is a water ritual--I think it is receiving Christ and being born again.

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." John 3:5-7

Notice that Jesus doesn't say anything about a water ritual?

Furthermore, no construction can be properly put on one part of a passage that makes it contradict another part of the same passage -- or of any other plain Scripture.

Faith, I guess you believe that God did not really mean what He said in Mark 16:16, or 2 Peter 3:21, or Acts 2:38 or Acts 22:16 when He said that Baptism SAVES. You do not come right out and call God a LIAR, but that is EXACTLY what you are doing when you say that one can be saved prior to being baptized. No Kevin, as I have said--we just disagree as to what God really means.

It is God, not fallible humanity, who has elected to focus upon baptism as the dividing line between the saved and the lost. But you are fallible Kevin--and this is your fallible opinion. I have my own understanding.

It is only the most foolish of people who would dare to deny this FACT of eternal significance.

Your fact Kevin--not mine

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith,

I don't know who taught you the plan of salvation, but you indeed have been misled.

In the book of Acts, when the question was asked, "What must I do to be saved?", some were told they needed to believe because they had not yet done so. Others were told to repent because they had not yet done that. And still others were told to be baptized because that still needed to be done. If the NT and its teachings are taken as a whole, then it is certainly reasonable to conclude that God requires faith, repentance, and baptism for a person to be saved.

Acts 2 is one of the most fascinating chapters in the Bible. It records the events of the day of Pentecost just a few weeks after the crucifixion of Jesus. As John the Baptist and Jesus had both promised (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5), the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and were given the miraculous ability to speak in languages they had not previously known.

Peter then proceeds to preach one of the great sermons of all time to the thousands who had gathered there in Jerusalem. Peter concludes his sermon with these words, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:36)."

Peter's sermon accomplished its purpose as we see the people "pierced to the heart" and asking Peter and the other apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" They believed what Peter had said in his sermon; they were convinced and convicted of their sin of rejecting and killing Jesus. Peter's response to them was, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)."

At what point were they saved? On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached to them about Jesus and His crucifixion. In Acts 2:37, it says, "When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?" They had listened to Peter and had come to believe that they had, in fact, crucified the Son of God. It was at this point that they believed. But was that belief enough to save them?

Apparently not, or else Peter would have answered their question by saying something like: "There is nothing you need to do now; you're already saved because of your belief. Go and try to live for Christ now." But that is not what Peter said. In verse 38, Peter first told them they needed to repent. To repent means to turn around and change directions. For the people listening to Peter, it meant to turn away from their sin and their fight against Jesus; they needed to turn to Him and accept Him and His way of life. (Repentance is also taught in several other places in the book of Acts as a necessary part of God's plan of salvation: Acts 3:19; 5:31; 17:30.) Would then their faith coupled with repentance be all that was needed for salvation? No, because Peter also told them to be baptized for the remission of their sins. In fact, it is clear that they were still not saved before baptism because in verse 40 Peter kept preaching, saying "Be saved from this perverse generation."

But then we come to verse 41: "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls." Verse 47 goes on to say, "And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved." At what point were they saved? It could not be said much clearer than what it says in verse 41. They were baptized and were then added to the Lord's church. The Bible teaches that it was at the point of baptism that they came into a saved relationship with the Lord. When one is buried in the ground, they are completely covered, or "immersed" into the ground. Water Baptism, is also a burial, or an immersion, into water. The baptism you advocate is NOT a burial, nor is it an "immersion" into anything so this baptism is to be rejected for it is NOT the truth according to the word of God.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Gail. The Bible can ONLY be interpreted ONE WAY and the way that you explain is definitely NOT the TRUTH. I challenge you Faith to examine what you have been taught in light of the scriptures I have pointed out for it is not too late for you to obey the gospel.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith,

The word of God says: Preaching Christ involves preaching baptism for the remission of sins. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The new birth, which marks our entrance into the kingdom of God, requires "water AND the Spirit" (John 3:5).

Water means water.

Jesus is NOT talking about any kind of physical rebirth, but rather He is describing what is involved in a SPIRITUAL rebirth.

If Jesus did not mean literal water (H2O), what did He mean? What should He have said to convey this point?

We must take Jesus at His word ? WATER MEANS WATER.

A spiritual rebirth requires PHYSICAL WATER (H2O - i.e. the waters of Baptism).

The Ethiopian eunuch obviously understood this. "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED?" (Acts 8:36). Philip had "preached unto him Jesus" (Acts 8:35), and the man knew he needed to find WATER in which to be BAPTIZED.

Preaching Jesus necessarily INCLUDES preaching WATER BAPTISM! To claim to preach Christ without preaching BAPTISM IN WATER is equal to not preaching Him at all!!!

Baptism is NOT symbolic, when one is baptized, they are baptized INTO Christ and His death. Jesus shed His blood in His death, and we contact His blood when we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH. There are numerous verses that connect water with Christianity, The apostle Paul tells us that the church was "sanctified and cleansed by water" in Ephesians 5:26. The inspired writer of the book of Hebrews reminds the saints could draw near to God with assurance because their hearts had been sprinkled and their bodies had been washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22). It is interesting indeed that Jesus Christ submitted to baptism in water to fulfill all righteousness. Hmmm... Why did Jesus disciples baptize in water??? Hmmmmm...

Faith says water has no importance but read these verses: "This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." (1 John 5:6)

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)

Now these two verses obviously put "water" on a much higher level of importance than Faith would like for it to be placed.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 30, 2004.

Faith, I don't know who taught you the plan of salvation, but you indeed have been misled.

In the book of Acts, when the question was asked, "What must I do to be saved?", some were told they needed to believe because they had not yet done so. Others were told to repent because they had not yet done that. And still others were told to be baptized because that still needed to be done. If the NT and its teachings are taken as a whole, then it is certainly reasonable to conclude that God requires faith, repentance, and baptism for a person to be saved. Yes Kevin--but as I explained--baptism takes place spitiually. It is a condition of the heart--we are washed clean by the blood of Jesus. It is a spiritual thing Kevin--no doubt in my mind

Acts 2 is one of the most fascinating chapters in the Bible. It records the events of the day of Pentecost just a few weeks after the crucifixion of Jesus. As John the Baptist and Jesus had both promised (Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5), the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit and were given the miraculous ability to speak in languages they had not previously known.

Peter then proceeds to preach one of the great sermons of all time to the thousands who had gathered there in Jerusalem. Peter concludes his sermon with these words, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified (Acts 2:36)."

Peter's sermon accomplished its purpose as we see the people "pierced to the heart" and asking Peter and the other apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" They believed what Peter had said in his sermon; they were convinced and convicted of their sin of rejecting and killing Jesus. Peter's response to them was, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)."

Obviously--they had not repented yet. Maybe Peter is talking to them as a whole--where some have come to that saving moment, but some have not. He is speaking generally.

These people were added because they believed the message. Belief came first. They were baptized to symbolize this new baptism into Christ, which happened when they believed the message. Jesus' baptism is not with water--but with the Holy Spirit. That is the saving baptism.

At what point were they saved? On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached to them about Jesus and His crucifixion. In Acts 2:37, it says, "When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?" They had listened to Peter and had come to believe that they had, in fact, crucified the Son of God. It was at this point that they believed. But was that belief enough to save them?

They were cut to the heart with their guilt. They had not repented or had they confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord....they didn't understand the gospel until it was explained to them.

Apparently not, or else Peter would have answered their question by saying something like: "There is nothing you need to do now; you're already saved because of your belief.

There is no indication that these people had received Christ yet. They were not believers yet--they were just convicted...

Go and try to live for Christ now." But that is not what Peter said. In verse 38, Peter first told them they needed to repent. Yes--because they hadn't done so yet.

To repent means to turn around and change directions. For the people listening to Peter, it meant to turn away from their sin and their fight against Jesus; they needed to turn to Him and accept Him and His way of life. This is right

(Repentance is also taught in several other places in the book of Acts as a necessary part of God's plan of salvation: Acts 3:19; 5:31; 17:30.) Would then their faith coupled with repentance be all that was needed for salvation? No, because Peter also told them to be baptized for the remission of their sins. Being baptised means to receive Jesus as Savior--he washes us clean and He gives the Holy Spirit. The water ceremony was just symbolic of this truth. These people were saved by faith in Jesus..not a water ceremony. Why the heck do you think Jesus was baptised? Did he need to be saved?

In fact, it is clear that they were still not saved before baptism because in verse 40 Peter kept preaching, saying "Be saved from this perverse generation."

But then we come to verse 41: "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and there were added that day about three thousand souls." Verse 47 goes on to say, "And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved." At what point were they saved? It could not be said much clearer than what it says in verse 41. They were baptized and were then added to the Lord's church. No actually it says they believed the message and were baptised-- which could simply be refering to Jesus baptism. The key is their belief. The water ceremony was simply a symbolic gesture that even Jesus himself took part in. John the baptist even said that jesus wouod bring the true baptism.., which is definately spiritual--as symbolized in John's water baptism.

The Bible teaches that it was at the point of baptism that they came into a saved relationship with the Lord. When one is buried in the ground, they are completely covered, or "immersed" into the ground.

It is all a symbolic meaning Kevin. Are we literally buried in the ground? No.

Water Baptism, is also a burial, or an immersion, into water. The baptism you advocate is NOT a burial, nor is it an "immersion" into anything so this baptism is to be rejected for it is NOT the truth according to the word of God. THe baptism that I advocate is Jesus' baptism--which is spiriual and relates to the spiritual truth.

This remind me 0of John chapter 6, where Jesus says that he is the bread of life and that we must eat him to be saved. Of course, you recognize the symbolic language there--why not here? Or do you agree that we must literally eat Jesus because that is what the Scripture says?

Unfortunately I have to agree with Gail. The Bible can ONLY be interpreted ONE WAY and the way that you explain is definitely NOT the TRUTH. I challenge you Faith to examine what you have been taught in light of the scriptures I have pointed out for it is not too late for you to obey the gospel. Well you can agree with Gail all you want. I find Catholic theology to be absurd--and your idea about a ritual is in line with their theology.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

murky water becomes clear, agian...

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Deep rod, deep...

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), March 31, 2004.

For Kevin....

You say..

Faith, The word of God says: Preaching Christ involves preaching baptism for the remission of sins. Jesus told Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

The water is a reference to the cleansing action of God's Holy Spirit. "...He saved us--through the washing of rebirth and renewal-- by the Holy Spirit." Titus 3:5

The new birth, which marks our entrance into the kingdom of God, requires "water AND the Spirit" (John 3:5).

The water is a symbolic representation of being cleansed by the Holy Spirit--Jesus baptism, that occurs when we receive Him in faith because we believed.

Water means water. No water means Cleansed

Jesus is NOT talking about any kind of physical rebirth, but rather He is describing what is involved in a SPIRITUAL rebirth.

Exactly right. And a spiritual rebirth occurs when we receive Him. Why would a spiritual rebirth require a physical action?

If Jesus did not mean literal water (H2O), what did He mean? What should He have said to convey this point? It is said it just fine. John says that he baptises in water--BUT-- after me will come one who is more powerful than I--He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire!!"

When Jesus did come..John the baptist turned his (John's) followers over to Jesus. Jesus was baptised by John and then Jesus baptised John...to fulfill all righteousness. John said, He must become greater., and I must become less (John 3:30).

John turned his ministry over to Jesus--who baptises us in the Holy Spirit--which we symbolize in the water ceremony.

We must take Jesus at His word ? WATER MEANS WATER.

No, water means cleansed.., cleansed by the washing of rebirth and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

A spiritual rebirth requires PHYSICAL WATER (H2O - i.e. the waters of Baptism).

I don't follow this logic at all. Why does a spiritual truth require a physical action? The Bible is speaking of symbolically representing a spiritual truth. But just as the thief on the cross never received the water ritual and was still saved.., it was by his repentance, confession and baptism by Jesus that saved him.., and also saves us.

The Ethiopian eunuch obviously understood this. "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED?" (Acts 8:36). Philip had "preached unto him Jesus" (Acts 8:35), and the man knew he needed to find WATER in which to be BAPTIZED.

The eunuch was born again by the washing of the Word--in other words--he believed. He wanted to express this in the baptism ritual-- but nothing here says that this baptism is the saving baptism. the saving baptism transpired in the eunuch's heart when he believed the Scriptures and recognized Jesus in Isaiah.

Preaching Jesus necessarily INCLUDES preaching WATER BAPTISM! To claim to preach Christ without preaching BAPTISM IN WATER is equal to not preaching Him at all!!!

The only baptism I see constantly preached is Jesus' baptism.

Baptism is NOT symbolic, when one is baptized, they are baptized INTO Christ and His death. Jesus shed His blood in His death, and we contact His blood when we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH. There are numerous verses that connect water with Christianity, The apostle Paul tells us that the church was "sanctified and cleansed by water" in Ephesians 5:26. The inspired writer of the book of Hebrews reminds the saints could draw near to God with assurance because their hearts had been sprinkled and their bodies had been washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22). It is interesting indeed that Jesus Christ submitted to baptism in water to fulfill all righteousness. Hmmm... Why did Jesus disciples baptize in water??? Hmmmmm...

Faith says water has no importance but read these verses: "This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." (1 John 5:6)

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)

Now these two verses obviously put "water" on a much higher level of importance than Faith would like for it to be placed.

Water still is symbolic of a deeper truth.

-- (Faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Faith, you need to consider the physical along with the spiritual meanings of Baptism. Also, remember that Baptism--during this time-- was a crucial concern for converting the Jews.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Faith, you asked, "Why does a spiritual truth require physical action?"

The answer is found in James. Don't be mislead into thinking that true faith results in obedience. There isn't any such thing as true faith and false faith. Only one faith, and God has spoken, that doing is a living faith, a faith that saves. Every reference of belief and faith as salvation must be in reference to a saving faith, not a simple acknowledgement of truth.

Accepting Jesus Christ involves doing the physical baptism. I would reference Acts 8, the story of Philip in Samaria. These people believed and were baptized but not by the Holy Spirit baptism John spoke of. Where these people saved or not?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

were*

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

When we believe--we are baptised in the Boby of Christ. When we don't believe--we are condemned.

I think the key word is believe.

When the apostles asked Jesus what is the work of God that we must do to be saved? Jesus responded that the work of God is to *believe* in the One He has sent.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

...and, when a person believes, the person does things according to that faith. We call those things "works". "Sola Fide" doesn't work.

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Yes--but the *works* are because of the faith. Faith came first.., and that is what saves a soul. Nothing he does could ever save him. Jesus saves us when we trust that he can.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Yes I agree people do things because of faith. I also know that people can have faith and still not do anything else. Are these people saved?

Do you believe that obedience is inclusive or exclusive of faith? If they are inclusive, then faith is not complete when we do not obey. If they are exclusive, then a person can have faith and be saved w/o ever obeying.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

I just think that sincere faith will produce works.

Look at the thief on the cross--he was saved by his faith in Jesus to save him. Nothing more....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Well, that's if you look at things with a human point of view. We don't exactly know what Christ saw in Dismas, so we don't truly understand what exactly has happened with Dismas' Salvation. Was it purely faith or a combination of that faith with the works Dismas had already done? If that would count at all, I'm not one who can save.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Also, consider what was actually happening to Dismas. He was evidently accused and executed for being a theif. Dismas surrendered to that reality and therefore repented and accepted his penance, even if you couldn't escape it. But, the other thief remained unrepentent and unfaithful. Dismas showed and proved his faith through his fate to the other thief. Dismas worked out his Salvation in those few moments with Christ. It is one thing to proclaim one's faith, quite another to prove it and bring others to that faith. Dismas did it.

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Dismas And Salvation thread has been started for further discussions.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Bv1n

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

It is almost funny that you have named the thief.

If we go by the gospel account.., the only thing that the repentant thief did was repent, confess and receive....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

Faith,

Baptism IN WATER is a burial. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is NOT a burial. Baptism IN WATER is the ONLY WAY someone can OBEY the gospel. Please read the story of the Eunuch in Acts 8:36-39. This ONE verse PROVES that baptism is IN WATER and puts to rest your FALSE DOCTRINE of Holy Spirit Baptism.

Holy Spirit baptism was NEVER a command, ONLY a promise. (Matthew 3:11). Holy Spirit baptism NEVER saved anyone. If it did, then why was Cornelius and his household COMMANDED to be baptized IN WATER after they received Holy Spirit baptism? (Acts 10:47-48) There is ONLY one reason and that is because baptism IN WATER is the ONLY baptism that saves.

I already told you about the thief on the cross, and no he is NOT a model for our salvation for he died before the terms of the New Covenant came into effect. (See Hebrews 9:17).

Jesus was baptized IN water not for the remission of sins, but to FULFILL all righteousness. Does that not mean that we are to follow in Jesus footsteps?

Let Jesus speak for Himself , "Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and FOLLOW ME. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 16:24-25).

Jesus was baptized "IN WATER", so we are to follow Jesus and be baptized "IN WATER" FOR the forgiveness of our sins.

How does one lose his life for Jesus unless they are BURIED with Him in WATER baptism? This is NOT possible in Holy Spirit baptism. Our baptism IN water is FOR the remission of sins, EXACTLY as numerous passages in the New Testament state.

When did Jesus receive the Holy Spirit??? Was it before He was baptized IN water, or after He was baptized IN water??? One CANNOT receive the Holy Spirit UNTIL after they have been baptized IN water FOR the remission of their sins.

Unfortunately for you Faith, Holy Spirit baptism is nothing but a FIGMENT of man's imagination and you have been DECEIVED. As I said earlier, there is ONE passage which completely puts to rest your FALSE DOCTRINE of Holy Spirit baptism and that is where the Eunuch asked to be baptized in water after Philip preached Jesus unto him. (Acts 8:35-39). Sorry, Holy Spirit baptism does not fit here, so it is FALSE DOCTRINE.

Remember, there is only ONE baptism. (Ephesians 4:5).

The baptism mentioned in Matthew 28:19 had human administrators. Christ commissioned the apostles to go and make disciples, baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Inasmuch as an apostle could not baptize "in the Spirit" (only Jesus Christ could do that - Mt. 3:11), one is forced to conclude that the baptism of Matthew 28:19 is WATER BAPTISM, NOT Holy Spirit baptism.

I am unaware of any reputable Bible scholar who contends otherwise. If, then, the other passages that mention baptism are of the same import, it follows that they likewise refer to water baptism, NOT Holy Spirit baptism.

Both Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 make it clear that the baptism of these passages involves both an immersion in "something," and a "being raised" from the same substance. This makes perfectly good sense if WATER BAPTISM is in view.

On the other hand, if the "Spirit" is the element of the baptism, this would suggest that one is buried in the Spirit, and subsequently "raised from" the Spirit. This would imply further that the new convert would not have the Spirit, and therefore, would not belong to the Lord (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6). This conclusion obviously is WRONG, thus demonstrating that the element of the baptism in Romans 6:3-4 and Colossians 2:12 is not the Holy Spirit. By default, it must be water baptism.

WATER is specifically associated with baptism in 1 Peter 3:21. If the allusion here, then, is to water baptism, and yet 1 Peter 3:21 refers to the same sort of baptism as the other passages cited, then clearly they speak of water baptism as well.

The passage that would come closest to teaching a "Spirit" baptism would be 1 Corinthians 12:13, but, the fact is, a careful analysis of related passages reveals that not even this text teaches a baptism in the Spirit.

Note the following logic: The baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13 puts one into the one "body," which is the same as the "church" (Eph. 1:22-23; Col. 1:18, 24). But the church is identified with the kingdom of Christ (Mt. 16:18-19). Thus, the baptism of the text under consideration introduces one into the Lord's kingdom.

However, a related passage demonstrates that it is through the birth of "water" that one enters Christ's kingdom (John 3:3-5). One is forced to conclude, therefore, that the baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13 is water baptism. In this connection, one should also carefully study Ephesians 5:26, and note the reference to the "washing of water."

Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts chapter 8. One passage of Scripture NEVER contradicts another. This one passage again proves that your Holy Spirit baptism is a lie.

The seed is the Word of God (i.e. Holy Spirit). (Luke 8:11). We are born again THROUGH the Word of God. See 1 Peter 1:23, James 1:18-21 and John 3:5.

The Spirit operates through the word of God to produce a new creature in God's spiritual family. (See John 3:5, 1 Peter 1:22-23 and Luke 8:11). How hard is that to understand?

The gospel is the power of God to salvation and the ONLY way to obey the gospel is to first hear the gospel, believe, repent of your sins, confess Jesus as Lord and be baptized IN WATER for the forgiveness of your sins. Until you do these things in obedience to Jesus, you are NOT saved. I urge you to obey the gospel before it is too late. (See 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), March 31, 2004.

Dismas also means "one with sin". It is funny; if we go by the Gospels, how do we know the fashions and styles of music that existed during the time of Christ? Hmmm? I guess fashion and music didn't exist, only as myth. uh.......open some history books and discover what their world was like. Josephus.......

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

Ya know Kevin.., I take the time to respond to these really long posts.., only to see you post a response with little to no reaction to me--you just restate everything again, as though I hadn't responded.

I won't bother again. You can find answers to all of this if you bother to read my other responses that I took a lot of time to give.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.

"I already told you about the thief on the cross, and no he is NOT a model for our salvation for he died before the terms of the New Covenant came into effect. (See Hebrews 9:17). " - Kevin Walker

"For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives" - Hebrews 9:16-17

"So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs." - John 19:32-33

Jesus died first.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

David,

Did Jesus tell the thief that he would be with Him in paradise BEFORE, or AFTER He died???

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.

Faith,

You wrote, "Ya know Kevin.., I take the time to respond to these really long posts.., only to see you post a response with little to no reaction to me--you just restate everything again, as though I hadn't responded."

Excuse me??? If you will go back and look at what I have responded to, you will notice that MOST OF THE TIME, I restated what you wrote, and then RESPONDED to your post. If you want me to, I can go back and point the finger back at you where you did not even bother to respond to what I wrote but that would not solve anything now would it Faith??? Is it necessary for me to respond to EVERY WORD that you write??? If you will go back and look at most of my posts in this forum, you will notice that the majority of the time, I respond to just about everything that someone posts to me for most of my posts are very lengthy.

You wrote, "I won't bother again. You can find answers to all of this if you bother to read my other responses that I took a lot of time to give."

It is obvious that you have not bothered to read what I wrote, otherwise, you would not continue to hold to your position that one is saved by "faith only" which is what you advocate. You claim that one is saved prior to being baptized in water and this is NOT what the word of God teaches. Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved." He did NOT say "He who believes IS SAVED and then can be baptized to SYMBOLIZE what has already happened." now did He???

This is my last post in this thread on this issue, because I have taken it way off topic.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.

A little late....

Yes, Luke, I would be concerned about signing some kind of contract with a church. I'm not saying that it is absolutely wrong to do such a thing. I'm saying that I would certainly want to know exactly what my faith is and how it would marry into the church. Catholicism does require parents to bring their children into the Church. Papers are signed. Other churches do have seemingly innocent documents for signatures: infant dedications, bible classes, and so on.

Is it good or bad to sign those contracts or promises? Hmm....it is human practice to make promises and then not keep them. Contracts are designed to keep people at their word even when their motives have changed. So, what good is a contract when the heart and mind have decided on a change of faith? If one keeps their faith, what good is a contract anyway? Could it be that contracts work on the flesh instead of the will? Sure. So, it is the fleshly world that is being manuevered, not the spirit. So, where is the faith in all of this? "Red flag"? I think so too, Luke. Perhaps those paper documents make people feel tangibly comfortable about their faith. Perhaps it is a physical form of proof, but for who? Well, the congregation; it polarizes the group. The pastor keeps tabs on the climate. But, God? Well, He knows.

....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Doesn"t it come down to the source of what is truth? I am convinced that God revealed Himself to His creation through the Word and the Word. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father and the scriptures are God's complete revelation of His nature, the condition of man, and what our loving God did to reconcile us to Himself. The thing is it's not really about us. If left to us we would all be condemned for we do not seek Him but rather He chooses some for His own purposes and pleasure so that ultimately He will be glorified. I can attest to the power of the gospel because as I heard this consistent message of salvation about what Jesus did for me on the cross it caused me to contempolate it and ultimately receive Him as the savior from my sins. This occured outside of any organized church. That is irrelevent anyway. The message of the cross was not foolishness to my ears but it is to those who are perishing. The moment I cofessed to God that I was unable to live in a righteous manner and that I was giving Him control of my life my heart changed and I no longer had some of the sinful desires that I had struggled with all my adult life. I understood that Jesus paid my sin penalty on the cross- He received my sins and through faith in Him and what He did for me I received His righteousness. Amazing Grace. From that moment on I have had a desire to know this God who saved me from His wrath and a desire to obey Him which had never been true up to that point in my life. God is sovereign. All He foreknew He predestined, called, justified, glorified. in Acts it says to some who were being given the gospel, all who were appointed to eternal life believed. In John it says no one comes to the Lord Jesus lest the Father drawhim. We love Him because He first loved us. I am a sinner saved by God's grace. The church I attend is full of people who were in a variety of denominations and catholism. This is a corporate church. the church of the bible is those God has called out the world to be His own. TJo all who received Him and believed on His Name(which represents every thing about a person to the ancients),to them He gave the right to be called children of God,born again. If there is further revelation from God than the bible then some credibility would possibly have to be given to Mormanism, Islam, etc. etc.

-- jim jorgensen (jorgyj@aol.com), November 22, 2004.

Jim,

What church do you attend?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 22, 2004.

Jim,

"Is your pulpit wooden or fiberglass?" -- Max Lucado

-- Joseph (jtg878@hotmail.com), November 23, 2004.