This was referenced by one of the recent articles I posted. I thought some would be interested in it.

HOMOSEXUALITY AND HOPE

STATEMENT OF THE CATHOLIC MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 29, 2004

Answers

bump

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 29, 2004.

Great article Bill. Thanks for posting the link.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 29, 2004.

If anybody ever has an opportunity to engage in a public or semi- public debate, make sure you get all the studies that the CMA references. Nothing stuns the lefty-loosy apologists like dropping the facts on the table. "Ladies and gentlemen, I hold in my hand peer reviewed documented evidence that says my opponents are wrong. They have produced no evidence what-so-ever. I have one question for you, why should you believe them?" Anticipate the ad hominem attack, couse thats all they will have left.

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), March 29, 2004.

Yes, this is a really great article.

Not that this is any reflection on me, but I actually know a few of the authors personally, including my father. (see the second named author.)

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), March 29, 2004.

You already kow the left wil rejec this as Homophobia. Only accpet as Real science whatever supports the left wing, pro Gay,, pro Abortion, pro socialism, anti morality, anti religious agenda.

I have seen those reports they referenced, and thye get passed over more times than Heathrow Airport.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 29, 2004.

Thanks Bill,

This report backs up some of the things I was saying on the incest thread. I know and have known a fair amount of people living the homosexual lifestyle. I think WITHOUT EXCEPTION, every one of them has or has had some sort of emotional trauma in their lives. They were sexually molested, or raped, or their mother or father were in jail, strung out, abusive etc. None of them lived a Beaver Cleaver type of life. Sure it is anecdotal, but I don't think it is coincidental. And many of them "decided" to be gay or "discovered" that they were gay. There is a gay lifestyle and it is appealing to many people who have certain troubling issues in their lives and fear or have trouble with heterosexual relationships. This lifestyle can be a security blanket, where they can fit in, and provide temporary comfort. But this lifestyle has severe consequences on earth and in life after death.

We must pray that marriage be strengthened, that people shun divorce, that parents devote themselves to raising their children lovingly and morally, and that parents learn to conquer whatever destructive habits, desires, and faults they have which can interfere with their duties as a parent.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), March 30, 2004.

My answer to that link , don't play with nature !!

May I ask , what about forced hetero-marriages , are they OK ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 30, 2004.

Have Hope Zarove. Despair, like Pride, is a tool of the Enemy.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), March 30, 2004.

Laurent,

What is a "forced hetero-marriage?"

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), March 30, 2004.

Brian ,

Call them business-marriages or/and arranged marriages !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 30, 2004.

Laurent,most Marriages today arent arranged, and those that are, like fir cultural reasons, arent directly forced.

The two are realy not related though, as a Homosexual man can have an arranged marriage justthe same.

iIndeed, let u imagine Homosexual Marriage is passed and ocmmonised, what woudl stop peoel form such mariages beign arranged fr politcal reaosns?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 30, 2004.

Laurent,

Are there alot of forced-hetero marriages taking place somewhere? What do they have to do with homosexuality? Once again I seem to be on a different wavelength than you. Your posts confuse me sometimes. But strangely enough, I do enjoy reading them :)

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), March 30, 2004.

Laurent, Arranged marriages have nothing to do with homosexual sex. Start a new thread if you want to discuss them.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 30, 2004.

Bill , in this thread , it's not my intention to discus about arranged marriages , but I just gave them as a weird example !!

Brian , you've got mail !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 30, 2004.

I am a homosexual,and from the time I was very young I have known this.My parents have been married for 31 years, are both Roman Catholic, and have never abused drugs or alcohol. I have NEVER been molested,sexually abused or raped. My childhood is as idyliic and "Beaver Cleaver" oriented as is possible.I have siblings who are completely heterosexual and married.Relatives, counselors, teachers and third party observers ALL remarked and seemed to notice what were described as "feminine" tendencies and behavior in me as a CHILD OF FOUR OR FIVE. The phenomenon of VERY YOUNG CHILDREN who appear to exhibit behavioral tendencies of the opposite sex is well-documented and widespread.(one need only hear oft-repeated tails of the "DOLL-PLAYING" little boy in class or nursery school. I am well adjusted and stable, being in the same relationship since my senior year in high school for the past 11 years. To assume that your own heterosexuality is an innate propensity and mine the result of some sort of mental disturbance is both ignorant and antiquated. The same sort of ignorance that negates the sexuality of priests and engenders the unparellelled incidence of pedophilia and sex abuse among these paragons and leaders of your faith. It well-known among the gay community that the Catholic priesthood is closely associated with a reputation of being "THE GAY PROFESSION". The only difference between their homosexuality and mine, is that their under the yoke of your oppresive,intolerant,and dogmatic faith,their sexuality takes on the flavorings of paedophelia. This underlying and very obvious hypocrisy very clearly makes your "medical association's" "study" a little hard to accept as anything other than irrationally biased OPINION. With every breath I breathe I know that I am living proof of your "scientific evidence's" complete and utter FALLACY.God Bless.

-- R.L.Pena (becalee75@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.

RL, I am not Catholic, I just post here. I grew up with peopel saying hiw mentaly ill I was. I beelived it, learned to act as expected, and grew up mentally ill. However,the diagnosis of schitzophrinia was REMOVED. I am nw clased as Obsessive Complsive, depressed, and possessing certain other personality disorders. None genetic.

You see, I grew up under the impressiong that I was mentlaly ill, and everyone treated me differently. If you knew anyhtign abiut Psycology, you woudl relaise that peopel tend to become what others tell them they are in early childhood.

Form what you told me, others where refering to you s Femoinine form a young age, and you began toact the part as you though yuo should. I know. I did the same thing, except they though I was mentlaly unstable, so I acted mentally unstable until ibecame mentlaly unstable. That is why I am now enterign the Pstchiatric proffession.

Homosexuals liek yourself want to justify who you have become by claimign its innate, and will claim that yo where Born Gay, and peopel liek me are ignorant and Intolerent. This is a Farce. every "Gay Gene" experement ever performed was latter deemed fraudulent. Every indication is that it is a progressive personality trait that si aquired, your feeligns of always having been gay aside.

Like me, you where told you where different form a young age, and treated differently, and thus learned to adapt to this environment. You learend to behave in a more feminine way to meet everyones expectation of you, just like I did.

I know, you will brush this off, but this is how peopel develop. I cant remember a time when I was happy. I was "Born Depressed" f you where Born Gay. Luckily for me, I know the truth, that i wanst. It may take me years to overcome depression, if I ever do, and it is known that most of my relationhsips and riendships end badly thanks to my obsessiveness and needyness.

But I will fight it nonetheless, even if it is hard.

You on the other hand have resigned yourself to Homosexuality, and oretend their is nohtign you can do to change it, ignore the fact that ex Gays exist, and pretend that its geneti wihtout the slightest evidence other than your own personal feelings, and then call us Ignorant. Sory, I am not ignorant, you are. worse still, you cant even take responcibility fr your own actions. At least when i hurt people I accept he blame. You, on the other hand, do not accept reszoncibility to your actions.Instead you call us Ignorant for opposing it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 02, 2004.

My childhood is as idyliic and "Beaver Cleaver" oriented as is possible.

Obviously not, i doubt beavers relatives and teachers told him he was effiminate.

Relatives, counselors, teachers and third party observers ALL remarked and seemed to notice what were described as "feminine" tendencies and behavior in me as a CHILD OF FOUR OR FIVE.

As zarove said, im sorry you were wrongly classed as a child. I can imagine how such labeling would have such a negative effect on a young child's psychology.

The phenomenon of VERY YOUNG CHILDREN who appear to exhibit behavioral tendencies of the opposite sex is well-documented and widespread.(one need only hear oft-repeated tails of the "DOLL- PLAYING" little boy in class or nursery school.

Really? present us the study, if you will? don't waste your time, however. there are NO studies which give any conclusive evidence of homosexuality being genetic. FURTHERMORE, the idea of the doll- playing little boy does not make that child homosexual. I myself had a doll as a child (she got rescued by my GI Joes) but nobody ever bothered to label me. I am straight, i have a great girlfriend in a steady relationship. Your evidence is, therefore, inconclusive.

I am well adjusted and stable, being in the same relationship since my senior year in high school for the past 11 years.

good, at least you are living a stable life of habitual sin, as opposed to jumping from partner to partner in illicit immoral relationships.

The same sort of ignorance that negates the sexuality of priests

whoever said anything about negating the sexuality of the priests? you view sexuality as having sex, which is contrary to the philosophy of the essense of humanity. Priests are male, distincly so. They are not seperated from desires for women, but they are called to overcome those desires as a sacrifice before God.

and engenders the unparellelled incidence of pedophilia and sex abuse among these paragons and leaders of your faith.

unparellelled? not even hardly. The catholic church has a lower incidence of molesting ministers than every protestant denomination out there. its percentage in comparison to the average population is also MUCH lower. unparellelled is a myth produced by an anti catholic leftist media source with a penchant for making a buck by selling story book nightmares to suckers who dont read real studies.

It well-known among the gay community that the Catholic priesthood is closely associated with a reputation of being "THE GAY PROFESSION".

Thats sick and sad that your "gay community" would plot and plan to infiltrate an honest religious profession. Gays may be members of the priesthood, if they can subjagate their desire for sin to be celebate, to do otherwise is to break your vows before God, making you a sacriligious, lying homosexual. it sorrows me deeply that you tell me that the gays have their eyes on the priesthood so that they can engage in their immorral relations at the same time tearing down an institution through spite.

under the yoke of your oppresive,intolerant,and dogmatic faith,their sexuality takes on the flavorings of paedophelia.

actually, the by and large most common age of male lay people molested was 13 and above. this no longer classifies as pedophilia. If you read the actual studies instead of the news you might be aware of this fact. Before you go flinging mud though, you might note that the priests who did all of this all show some homosexual tendencies. their disordered actions only show to me the fact that homosexuality is a disordered condition. Especially in light of the fact that you claim the "gay community" is plotting to join the priesthood as an insurgency.

With every breath I breathe I know that I am living proof of your "scientific evidence's" complete and utter FALLACY.God Bless.

you are living proof of nothing. You are one more case where relatives and teachers abused a child by class casting him into a category that psychologically damaged that child. I pray for you, that you see the light, even if you call me hateful for praying for your salvation.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 02, 2004.

People treated me as different because i WAS different.Am different don't and have never had a problem with being different.In fact their expectations of me were to act as they expected(that is, to act like a heterosexual)why on earth would anybody TRY to act like someone's NEGATIVE opinion of them in childhood?As for a gay "gene"? No scientific body posits any claim to one existing.The scientific evidence of BRAIN PHYSIOGNOMY contributing to homosexuality in higher primate and mammalian brains(specifically the hypoyhalamus region INAH-3)are cross-referenced enough and well-researched enough of studies(three major ones involving collectively twelve years of research of brain specimen study)to make it a little something called the New England Journal of Medicine long.WAY long before The AMERICAN MEDICSL ASSOCIATION stopped classifying homosexuals as "ILL". IF you are not familiar with these studies about the physical structure of a large percentage of gay men's brains perhaps you should look into it(before consulting the Catholic Medical Association's "research")Subtle differences in brain structure have nothing to do with genes.(MALE LAB MICE WHOSE MOTHERS ARE INJECTED WITH ESTROGEN WHILE THEIR MOTHER'S WERE PREGNANT WITH THEM ARE OBSERVED TO...ARCH THEIR BACKS AND WAVE THEIR TAILS ASIDE...MIMICKING THE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR OF FEMALE MICE...HMMM)When these same laboratory mice were killed and disected the part of their brains that coresponds to other mammals hypoyhalamus INAH-3 regions was SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER than a normal male lab mouse's.In fact it looked almost exactly like a female lab mouse's brain part) You can e-mail for the NEWSWEEK article health and science section report on this and THIRTY-SIX other ongoing University research studies in the brain morphology studies of the male homosexual and especially transsexual brain.As for ignorance it's usually defined by the inability to tolerate others. I am not looking for anyone's acceptance.I'm very happy with my own acceptance.I wish you could tell me how my behaivior "hurts" you or anybody for that matter.It is ignorance like yours that CONDEMNS people like me who are just plain happy with our life and who we choose to sleep with.Why do you condemn my happiness?As for "ex-gays",unlike you I am open-minded enough(as oppossed to ignorant,like you)to accept whatever "change" they've decided to make in their life.AS LONG AS THEY ARE HAPPY.The "responsibility" for my sex-life is of course,mine as is theirs,yours,anyone else's,as long as they are consenting adults.It is a responsibilty I take and take PROUDLY.Your ignorance is not only sad it is sometimes dangerous because just the way you folks "don't agree"with gay behavior you "agree" that's it's ok for a priest to have NO sex life(I supose that's completely natural to you,right?)and then letting him become warped and sex-starved enough to MOLEST CHILDREN.Your ignorance causes young alter boys to be abused and it is possibly THESE boys who grow into the few gay men without any anatomic brain differences that suffer from "psychological homosexuality"the kind that could ostensibly be "cured" by Catholic psychologists.The tragic irony being that they were exposed to gay pedophilic Catholic priests in the first place.What can I say ignorance breeds only more sad ignorance. Luckily promising new X-ray three-dimension technology as reported in "Science" could make the examination of LIVING gay brains a reality(currently you'd have to be dead to contribute your gay brain to be disected and studied).This could be as soon as 10 years from now.Then,you and your god's condemnation of homosexual behavior would be worse than just ignorant it would be BIGOTED.(remember it was you folks who used god's ok of slavery i.e. the isrealites being told how to treat their slaves...to endorse slavery in the south during the civil war(yes this was another religious argument as potent at the time as abolitionists' theories).Now we see these views as just plain antiquated,ignorant,bigoted, and BARBARIC.But i have no fear of your message for the future of this world as we know it.I KNOW thankfully that Homosexuals will NEVER stop being born and existing.Even you have to know that.As for your "god",and other fairy tales, where is Zues now?(A God that was believed in and worshipped by ignorants for thousands of years.)Your god will go the way of all the others before him refereed to and studied as"Christian Mythology".This ignorance-inspiriing mythology will be logically replaced by the God of Technology and the triumph of the God of plain common sense where everyone,gay, straight, wise, ignorant, black, and white, and even arab will ACCEPT evertone's right to be happy however they want to choose it for themselves."God"Bless.

(MALE LAB MICE WHOSE MOTHER'S ARE INJECTED WITH ESTROGEN WHILE THEY WRE PREGNANT WITH THEM ARE OBSERVED TO...ARCH THEIR BACKS AND MOVE THEIR TAILS ASIDE...LIKE A FEMALE MOUSE'S SEXUAL BEHAVIOR)

-- R.L.pena (becalee75@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.

>gay pedophilic Catholic priests Sorry, the facts state otherwise. The abuse by Catholic priests was not pedophilic in nature. Pedophiles abuse pre-pubescent children. These men has sex with post-pubescent boys, and young men as old as their mid twenties (novices where these men were superiors thereby abusing their authority). These men could not control their lusts. In this case, homosexual lusts.

ref: The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons -- A Research Study Conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice

in the United States In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@Hotmail.com), April 02, 2004.

By the way, there is no scientific evidence that anyone is born with a sexual desire for their own sex. Rather, the homosexual inclination emerges later, sometimes in the earliest phases of a person's psycho-social development, for reasons that are unclear to medical science.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 02, 2004.

My comments in {} Brackets. --------------------------------------------------------------------

People treated me as different because i WAS different.

{Yes I bouhgt this lie myself. If I wasnt sick , if I waant mentlaly ill, they woudlnt treat me as if I where. They i had evaluations, the cause of all my mental illness was peopel callign me mentlaly ill form childhood. Traua induced my diffeences which exagerated over time . Same applies to you. Dont buy the lie, and take charge of your own life.}- Zarove

Am different don't and have never had a problem with being different.

{Difference sin the problem. I am stil differen than most peopel you meet in Dayton Tennessee. But I am no linger subject to the mental conditioning I suffered as a child.I am living ptoof that how choldren are treated effects their personalities. You,on the other hand, wish to set aside acountsbility for your own actions and life and claim itd all genetic, makikgn you a slave. Sorry, I have too much repsect for you to beleive you have no controle over yourself.}- Zarove

In fact their expectations of me were to act as they expected(that is, to act like a heterosexual)why on earth would anybody TRY to act like someone's NEGATIVE opinion of them in childhood?

{Why woudl people try to act on negative images? You clarly have NO workign knwoledge of Psycology. People try to behave as they think they shoudl, as they have been defined. The fact that we have criminals tells us that pepel act on negative self images, and most studies indicate these self images stem form early childhiood or teen years. People DO act on negative self image. They don act on what people wan them to act on rather they tend to ac ton how their own self image works, which as a chld i largley dependant on how their families and teachers tell them to define themselves. }-Zarove

As for a gay "gene"? No scientific body posits any claim to one existing.

{Thats what I said.If its nto genetic, then it is a psycological and Moral issue though.}-Zarove

The scientific evidence of BRAIN PHYSIOGNOMY contributing to homosexuality in higher primate and mammalian brains(specifically the hypoyhalamus region INAH-3)are cross-referenced enough and well- researched enough of studies(three major ones involving collectively twelve years of research of brain specimen study)to make it a little something called the New England Journal of Medicine long.WAY long before The AMERICAN MEDICSL ASSOCIATION stopped classifying homosexuals as "ILL".

{Sorry, this is false. Brian studies themselves ar eincnclusive. You see, you are assuming the idea that oens brian is the shape it is form Birth. Studies have shown however that Cab Drivers have brains developed in responce to their own liestyle, namely the regions of the brain needed or navigation, steeringand controle arehighly developed as opposed to regular people.

Gay peopels brains shoudl be expected to be shaped differently, because they use them diffeently. The brain develops neural pathwayts in accordance ot how it is used. It doesnt come fully formed with all the pathays needed for as lifestyle, rather it develps along those lines.}-Zarove

IF you are not familiar with these studies about the physical structure of a large percentage of gay men's brains perhaps you should look into it(before consulting the Catholic Medical Association's "research")Subtle differences in brain structure have nothing to do with genes.

{No, they have to do with behaviour an though proccesses over time. The poin is that a depressed persons brain is shapped differently too. So is a war vets. This doesnt however mean that the shape of their brain is how their brain was wen they where born. The nerual patheays developed as they used them. Since Homosexual behaviours and thoughts are differen than Heterosexual behaviours and thoughts, the brian will develop patheays that are different.}-Zarove

(MALE LAB MICE WHOSE MOTHERS ARE INJECTED WITH ESTROGEN WHILE THEIR MOTHER'S WERE PREGNANT WITH THEM ARE OBSERVED TO...ARCH THEIR BACKS AND WAVE THEIR TAILS ASIDE...MIMICKING THE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR OF FEMALE MICE...HMMM)

{Sorry, thats inconclusive. We can do the same to streight men and get effimi nete posturing and behavuour. However the men usually remain streight. further, later studies revelaed most gay Men do NOT have a marked surplus of estregen. in fact, i have an overactive brian and have more esteegen thana normal male because I use more of it. Its also a brian chemical.

Also, interestign to note, the rats often revert to "Heterorats" when the estregen wears off.}-Zarove

When these same laboratory mice were killed and disected the part of their brains that coresponds to other mammals hypoyhalamus INAH-3 regions was SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER than a normal male lab mouse's.

{S basiclaly you are telign us Homosexualit is a defect that can be cured with Hormones. Or if not, why arent you tellignus this? Also, see what I said of the brian earlier, it was short, but I am in a hurry.}-Zarove

In fact it looked almost exactly like a female lab mouse's brain part)

{Again, brains develop as they are used. Brians arent the sam form the time of birth to death. So gay people arent born with Gay brains. Thats a pipe dream. The brain develops pathays that reinforce the thought pattersn/behaviours employed.

Even if not, form your statements above, Homosexuality becomes a Hormonal imbalance. This still renders it a defect, and treatable.}- Zarove

You can e-mail for the NEWSWEEK article health and science section report on this and THIRTY-SIX other ongoing University research studies in the brain morphology studies of the male homosexual and especially transsexual brain.

{You mean thre Dean Hammer Study that was later rpoven False? Or the real studies that proved only that brians develop different ly if used differnetly?}-Zarove

As for ignorance it's usually defined by the inability to tolerate others.

{No its not. The dictoonary defines Ignorance as a lack of Knowledge of a particular topic. Not as intolerence. IE, I am ignorant of how Fighter Jet engines work. I am not intlerent of Fighter Jet engines.}- Zarove

I am not looking for anyone's acceptance.

{yes you are, or else you woudl be postign here. You also seek self acceptanc with fraudulent ideas about how the brain works. For full details mail me. I can send you artiles on neurology I have on my PC that tell you how the Brian develops. Gay men do, in fact, have different braisn that Heterosexuals, btut his is expected. Its not because their born Gay, rather, theyr brians develop neural patheays in accordance oto their gay thoughts. Just like pro atheletes develop leg muscles that build in accordance to their use.}-Zarove

I'm very happy with my own acceptance.

{Then why are you here? Woudl you mail me and ask for a Neurology discussion? I happen to know a lot about neurology.}-Zarove

I wish you could tell me how my behaivior "hurts" you or anybody for that matter.

{Your behaviour hurts you. Its self destuctive. Studies indicate that Homosexuals have shorter lifespans, in general are more prone to depression, and othe mental instabilities, and generally less stable in relationships ( I knwo you aid you wheent, this is average study midn you) and in general carries greater health risk.

It also sets a poor moral example, and your ideas about the Gay Brian structures themselves are misleading as you present them as Scientific proof that beign Gay is how yo whre Born, and will likely ignore facts tot he contrary.}-Zarove

It is ignorance like yours that CONDEMNS people like me who are just plain happy with our life and who we choose to sleep with.

{Ignorance beign yor special word for Intolerence. Sorry, you arent condemned so much, as you are interfering with our discussion on Homosexuality to vendicate yourself. Othereise, if you are so happy, why are you here?}-Zarove

Why do you condemn my happiness?

{We dont. we speak out agaisnt tor immoral conduct. These things are different. Why do you make emotional appeals rather than waiting for reason?

If you are so happy with yourself, why are you postign on a Cahtolic Message board to vendicate Homosexuality? }-Zarove

As for "ex-gays",unlike you I am open-minded enough(as oppossed to ignorant,like you)to accept whatever "change" they've decided to make in their life.

{I am ingorant, yu are Open minded. You knwo this because I soeak agsisnt Homosexuality. You arent Open Minded, your relaly closed Minded. I can send you neurology reports, and will if you mail me and requeas them.

You realy are just here to claim everyone who is agaisnt Homosexuality is "Ignorant" ( Intoelrent) and everyone in favour is Open Minded.

Bu this all sidesteps the issue, and is a cheap Ad Homonim. The poin I made is this. If Homosexuality is soemthin you are Born with, and soemthign you cannot change, then how do these people change?}- Zarove

AS LONG AS THEY ARE HAPPY. {But you arent happy, or else you woudlnt be here.}-Zarove

The "responsibility" for my sex-life is of course,mine as is theirs,yours,anyone else's,as long as they are consenting adults.

{That is nice tha yo agree, but this rrally isn the point. You do not claim responcibility for your Homosxuality. This is where I objected. You put PsuedoScience as an explanation to why your gay, and never once claim that you choose to remain actiely Gay. Since you do not acknowledge that yo are choosing your course fo actions , then I cannot respect you, and this sint "Ignorance", its simpley based on the fac that I wudl respect you more if you where Gay and acknowledged tha you choose to live that way.}-Zarove

It is a responsibilty I take and take PROUDLY.

{Pride goeth before a fall.}-Zarove

Your ignorance is not only sad it is sometimes dangerous because just the way you folks "don't agree"with gay behavior you "agree" that's it's ok for a priest to have NO sex life(I supose that's completely natural to you,right?)

{I am not Catholic. Repeat after me. Zarove is not Catholic.

Also, remember, Preists Choose to live Celebate lives. Why is it that you , who propogated the Mytht hat Paedophilia is rampent in Catholic Clergy ( It is as rampent as n any othe rproffession.) and claim yo wsntot make peopel happy, yet refuse this?

I am a 26 year olf virgin, who wants to wait for marriage fo sex. Is tha Unnatrual to you? Sex sint everythign and if these men want to voluntarily give up their sex lives, that is their choice, and they o it to serve God, and who are you to call them wrong for it?

Incedentlaly, I don agree that preistly celebacy shoudl be the standard, but then again, it is, and their are successful and happy Priests, Bishops, and Archbishops put their.So who am I to say its wrong?}-Zarove

and then letting him become warped and sex-starved enough to MOLEST CHILDREN.

{Didnt Bill tackle that ld Canard? Not all, or even most, pretss Molest Children. Most don't. Deal withthe fact. Most Prist do not molest Children.

This i just you pointign the finger of blame on someone else to venfdicate your own liestyle. If you where truely secure in it, you woudl not resort ro such meathods.Tis alone proves you arent a Happy person.}-Zarove

Your ignorance causes young alter boys to be abused and it is possibly THESE boys who grow into the few gay men without any anatomic brain differences that suffer from "psychological homosexuality"the kind that could ostensibly be "cured" by Catholic psychologists.

{Nope. all gay Men wil develop those anatomical diferences. You are suferign the fallacy that Gay men are born Gay because their braisn are different. Fighter Pilots brians are diferent than most people. does htis mean they where Birn fighter Pilots?

Why do you seem to think the brian studies prove you where Birn Gay, when they nly prove that Gay brians are shaped diffeently? Can you prove that Gay Brians are shaped diffenely orm Birth? Can you dispell the idea that they form into Gay Brians as they are used in that vein?}-Zarove

The tragic irony being that they were exposed to gay pedophilic Catholic priests in the first place.

{Again, this rarely happens. Paedophile teachers exist too. o to Paedophile social workers. Paedophile cops exist too. Need I list more?}-Zarove

What can I say ignorance breeds only more sad ignorance.

{Yes, its al us poor Catholcis fault. ( even thos of us who arent catholic.) Peooel liek yo where Birn with a Gay brian. we know to swhere Born with Gay brian, as opposed to it developing certain features based on iyour own usage of your brin, because you said so. And of scouse, we caue all the suffering in the world, not nice, innocent peopel liek you.

Sorry, yjis is a cheap emoitonal attack based on a fallacy.}-Zarove

Luckily promising new X-ray three-dimension technology as reported in "Science" could make the examination of LIVING gay brains a reality (currently you'd have to be dead to contribute your gay brain to be disected and studied).

{We have this already. CAT and PET scans make this possible. You are still suferign the dilusion hat brians form of their own, wihtoiut you havign any contorle over it. Brains form as you use them.}-Zarove

This could be as soon as 10 years from now.

{After my stroke they sanned my brain. why do you have to wait a decade?}-Zarove

Then,you and your god's condemnation of homosexual behavior would be worse than just ignorant it would be BIGOTED.

{Assumign you are right and Gays are born that way and cant help it. even assuming the Gay Brain works differently than a Striegh mans brian, you woudl still ave to prove that it was BIRN THAT WAY. You assume that a difference means automaticaly that it i an innate feature that happened on its own.

Again, how do you knpw the brain structures themselves didnt occire as the person used them\?}-Zarove

(remember it was you folks who used god's ok of slavery i.e. the isrealites being told how to treat their slaves...to endorse slavery in the south during the civil war(yes this was another religious argument as potent at the time as abolitionists' theories)

{Another odl Canard. First off its not gods OK for slavery, Its God's. I lnow peopel like you that love to be Bigoted agaisnt Christains love to diliberatly disrespect God by renderignt his proper noun in lower case. You spell it god, and its OK to do this becauseyou personaly don beleive on god and do hold him in disdaine. But its disrespectful and insulting.

While you paly the Bigot, you expect us to feel small. Once you learn to respect us and our beleifs, maybe then we wll losten to you more serieosuly.

Incedentaly, the Christains where also anti-Slaery. You menionmed it yourself, the largest anti-Slave movement in the North and South was Chrisyain. The abolitionist Preachwrs relaly brought it tot he fore.

Then again, I am not American, Brittain had alreayd freed the slaves. Under its Monarichal, Christain givernment. Lead by the Church of england and orman Catholic CHurhc, as well as the bptist Convention.

Typical Yankee and anti-Christin Bigot to boot!}-Zarove

.Now we see these views as just plain antiquated,ignorant,bigoted, and BARBARIC.

{No we dont. We see them as pertainin to a whol;ly different instetution. Slavery in the Old testement, and in Ancient Greece, was noether based on race, nor was it designed under the structures of pure ownership. Indeed, the form of slavery they discussed int he Old testement existed till the Unions came about , well after slavery had ended in the US. We can thank Hoffa.

Just because it was the same name doesnt mean it was the same institution.}-Zarove

But i have no fear of your message for the future of this world as we know it.

{Good, no one is askign for fear. Only reason. You don even know that the brain studies prove litle. You just asume that gays are born with an anatomically different Brain, btu really cant tell me wht I shoudl beleive that over beleiving their brain developped as it was sued, just like mine and everyon elses does, and many features augmented based on lifestyle and behaviural choices.

een if not, you still basiclaly make it a Hormonal condition, which is still a disorder.}-Zarove

I KNOW thankfully that Homosexuals will NEVER stop being born and existing.

{You have yet t prove they are Born Gay. You only claim that their brians are shaped differntly. Again, how do you know that a different shaped brian isnt the END RESULT of Homosexuality, and how do you kow it is the cause instead?}-Zarove

Even you have to know that.

{You havent proven tha Gays are Birn Gay though, so I don't know, even takign your writings at face value, that Gays are birn thus.

Can you prove that the Gay Brian is Born anatomically different? How can you disprove the theory that the brian didnt developinto its Gay OCniguration based on Gay thoughts and lifestyle and expereinces, just like fighter Jet pilots brians develop to help them better d their Job? Or Cab Drivers?}-Zarove

As for your "god",and other fairy tales,

{Yes, another Bogot. Not pnly lower case G, but in quotation makrs, and called a Fairy Tale. You sure have a lot to teach us of tolerence.

If you cannot respect our belifs, why shoudl we listen to you as you plea to us over aceptance and tolerence?

Also, prove God ia a fairy Tale.}-Zarove

where is Zues now?(A God that was believed in and worshipped by ignorants for thousands of years.)

{More proof you are a Bigot. Outs is god. Zeus is a God. Zeus ets a Capitol G. Outs doesnt.

To answer your quatsion, Zeus didnt exist.}-Zarove

Your god will go the way of all the others before him refereed to and studied as"Christian Mythology".

{Makign prety Bold asertions. Naturally, yo ar eopen mined and tolerent, thats why yo insult out god by not capping the word, and cap it for Zeus, and call him a fairy tale. Srry, Voltaire, Thomas Paine, and Ingersol al go thteir before you withthis claim...

Note, all failed to bring down Chrisyainity.

God is real. This is self evident to anyone who realy looks at the world. But rather than discuss that with a Hypoctirtical Bigot who asks for tolerence in one breath then demeans someones beleifs in another, I will simpley remind you of your own requeasts. }-Zarove

This ignorance-inspiriing mythology will be logically replaced by the God of Technology and the triumph of the God of plain common sense

{Chrisyainity isnt an Ignorance nspiring Mythol,ogy. its actually been praised as the best moral Philosophy ever developed, even by NonChristains. You are just caling it gnorance inspiring because you are Gay and it teaches agsuisnt it. Your vendetta is personal.}-Zarove

where everyone,gay, straight, wise, ignorant, black, and white, and even arab will ACCEPT evertone's right to be happy however they want to choose it for themselves."God"Bless.

{ We arent tryign to make people unhappy. But you are. You are diliberatly nsultung us by placign God in quitation marks. If referign to God in lower case G, and callign him a fairy tale. I doubt you wll hear of the majesty of though in the Bible, or its praises, because yo have determined that its all rubbish and hatred and myhtikogy. But then, you are a closed minded fool who thinks hes open minded and I am ignorant. So we shall see. }-Zarove

(MALE LAB MICE WHOSE MOTHER'S ARE INJECTED WITH ESTROGEN WHILE THEY WRE PREGNANT WITH THEM ARE OBSERVED TO...ARCH THEIR BACKS AND MOVE THEIR TAILS ASIDE...LIKE A FEMALE MOUSE'S SEXUAL BEHAVIOR)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 02, 2004.

You should read the published study and repeat study by biologist Dr.Bruce Bagmihl of the effect of H-Y antigens and immune response in expectant mothers and mammalian homosexual behavior(use Google search engine)Also the sixth published study by the University of California Los Angeles's study of the "mounting" behavior of mice(Dr.Eric Vilain,who was awarded by his peers in Neuroscience for study...just ONE study(It has been repeated at least four times in seperate studies of PPI levels in "estrogen" exposed lab mice in utero. or Prof.John Rodger's published research in the size of the suprachiasmitic region of the male homosexual brain.It is only the studies involving "genetic" causative factors that have not been repeated. The most compelling study CONDUCTED AND PAID FOR BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT inthe form of The U.S.Department of Agriculture's study of the so-called "dud-stud" phenomenon in male sheep who express no interest in the female sheep and instead exhibit "squating" behavior.The study,conducted in 1988 to prevent rancher's from losing money when a male ram will not reproduce.Ranchers report this behavior as sporadic,occasional occurences in some male sheep. I cannot understand how you can respond to thirteen-year olds and post-pubescent's abuse as non-paedophilic. YOU TRULY BELIEVE CELIBACY IS NATURAL?Celibates are equally(in theory) as non-reproductive as homosexuals. And yet you endorse one and condemn the other. Beaver Cleaver wasn't told or thought to be gay because he wasn't born gay.I responded FAVORABLY to feminine behavior as a very young child because it felt right and normal.My sexual orintation was completely formed when I vocalised "crushes" on other little boys in the third grade.(eight yrs.old)I believe in the message of Jesus christ of Nazareth AS ALLEGORY that is positive and inspiring as oppossed to believing AS LITERALISM.When people believe literally as you do.,it narrows and constricts all reason and distills BIGOTRY from Jesus's message of love(allegory,allegory)

-- R.L.Pena (becalee75@yahoo.com), April 02, 2004.

To sum up.

1: Prive that Homosxuals are Born with an anatomiclaly different Brain. Note, this will intail proving that a differing brain sructure itsself is innate, an din't develop as a result of Homosexuality, and instead caused it.

2: Prive that Homosexuality, if caused by a Hormonal Imblance as you implied earlier, is not an illness.

3: prive that God does not exist and he is a fairy tale.

4: explain why god is in kower case, but Zeus is called a God in Captil G, as is the God of Common Sence and Godof Technology? Is this not itsself diliberate insult, and Bigotry on your part?

5: If you do not respect our beelifs, even though you csannot disprove them, as you admitedwheuo claimed that proof WILL appear when technology allows brainscans of Gays, then how do you know the tehcnology you anicipate will prove you right? How can you be 100% sure of soemthign thats not rpoven? What if it proves us right?

6: Why is it I can have a brain scan now and Gays cannot?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 02, 2004.

You should read the published study and repeat study by biologist Dr.Bruce Bagmihl of the effect of H-Y antigens and immune response in expectant mothers and mammalian homosexual behavior(use Google search engine)Also the sixth published study by the University of California Los Angeles's study of the "mounting" behavior of mice(Dr.Eric Vilain,who was awarded by his peers in Neuroscience for study...just ONE study(It has been repeated at least four times in seperate studies of PPI levels in "estrogen" exposed lab mice in utero.

{This may surprise tou, but I have. Probelm is they are still inconclusivee. And you are now jumping form one series of tests to another, without addressign your previosu faults. Again, prove that Gay Brians are Born that ay and not the rsult of Homosexual behaviour using the former studies to sited.}-Zarove

or Prof.John Rodger's published research in the size of the suprachiasmitic region of the male homosexual brain.

{Again, proving a diffeence between brian ddevelopment ( Itsself queatsioned) does NOT prove Homosexualls are BORN GAY. I told you that before. Please prove that the theory that the brain development is the end result OF Homosxual behaviour, and is instead its cause.}- Zarove

It is only the studies involving "genetic" causative factors that have not been repeated.

{But if its not Genetic then it is logical to speculate anoter cause renders Homosexuality. Again, you havent disproven that Homosexuality itsself is the CAUSE OF any brian differences. You ust repeat the same charges.}-Zarove

The most compelling study CONDUCTED AND PAID FOR BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT inthe form of The U.S.Department of Agriculture's study of the so-called "dud-stud" phenomenon in male sheep who express no interest in the female sheep and instead exhibit "squating" behavior.

{Which doesnt prove that Homosexuality is Innate or unchangable. Again, that is what we are disussing.}-Zarove

The study,conducted in 1988 to prevent rancher's from losing money when a male ram will not reproduce.Ranchers report this behavior as sporadic,occasional occurences in some male sheep.

{But no indication that the behaviour is INNATE. Again, no on is disputing Homosxuality in Animals, only its cause, which is not conclusively rpoven, but which Genetics seems to paly a diminishing rle in theories, and brian studis are inconclusive. Again, the brain can develop that ay based on how it is used, and not nessisarily act as the trigger for the behaviour itself. Why dont you see that?}- Zarove

I cannot understand how you can respond to thirteen-year olds and post-pubescent's abuse as non-paedophilic.

{I didnt, Bill did. But tis because the APA said its not if doen to a Teen.}-Zarove

YOU TRULY BELIEVE CELIBACY IS NATURAL?Celibates are equally(in theory) as non-reproductive as homosexuals.

{True, but we dont spread diseases. Likewise, I dint plan on remaining this way for life, just till i find my own mate, speakign animalistically. Again, the logical route is taken.}-Zarove

And yet you endorse one and condemn the other.

{Because one is equelly not destrictove. Again, thats the thing. Homosexuality is destictive to the peopel doing it. Homosexuality is also destructive to society when enforced as it confused the line between acceptable and nonacceptable behaviour. It has a proven sciological effect, that is NOT beneficial. Celebates do not damage themselves or others.}-Zarove

Beaver Cleaver wasn't told or thought to be gay because he wasn't born gay.

{Nor where you, nor can your adamence really serve as proof you where. Again, you assume you where Born Gay and peopel noticed, when the reason for your Homosexuality itsself may have been because of the labling. Your "Open minded" approach is incapable of even considering that possibility thouhg. Pity poor "Ignorant" ( Intlerent Biggots) people like me actually can think of differing possibilities.

I once accpeted the thery that peopl where Born Gay, then I started collage. Sorry, the studies relaly dont mention any real evidence aong those lines, even the brian studies are largley misunderstood by Laynmen like torself. I know beleive its a Psycological sttae. Not an innate codition.Based on study.}-Zarove

I responded FAVORABLY to feminine behavior as a very young child because it felt right and normal.

{No one challenged that. We only challenge yor assertion that it felt natural and right because you where Birn Gay. I said that it sounded like my emntal illness probelm. I was told I was mentlaly ill, theifore mentally unstable states and behaviors that where irratic felt natural to me. That was how I was conditioned. It was not, hwoever, inborn and I thankfully pulled myself out of most of it. Peopel treated me as if I where Mntally ill, so I acted like it. Same applies to you. I know the feelign. I relaly do. That doesnt mean tor feelings where accurate.}-Zarove

My sexual orintation was completely formed when I vocalised "crushes" on other little boys in the third grade.(eight yrs.old)

{This relaly doesnt prove that yo whrre Birn Gay however. You said that wyou were called effemenate dince yo were four. Thats four years of conditioning yor young, maluable personality into accpeting a feminine framework. Again, if MY theory is correct, your four years of beign treated as a gay coudl easly induce your own behaviours ot become progressivedly feminine as you wudl relate to it more than a masculine identity, that coul easily mainifest in crushes. It still doesnt prove you where Born Gay any more than I was Born Mentlaly Ill.}-Zarove

I believe in the message of Jesus christ of Nazareth AS ALLEGORY that is positive and inspiring as oppossed to believing AS LITERALISM.

{Note. If you beelive it literlaly its negative, becaue you daid so. Sorry, Jesus WAS a Historical person. The movement began too fast, among peope who where too close ot he events, for Jesus not to have been a real man.

As to takign the message as Allegory, you show no signs of respectign God, as you sell all other gods in a capitol G, and spell God in a lower cae. And call him a fairy tale. The main issue their was that you yourself have neither respect for nor tolerence of others beelifs, and are thus a Bigot yourself. Why on earth shoudl we respect you when you sont respect us?

Further, yo don even repsect the message of Jesus as allgory, yor own crude, malicious conduct indicates how little the message of Jesus actually emans to you.}-Zarove

When people believe literally as you do.,it narrows and constricts all reason and distills BIGOTRY from Jesus's message of love (allegory,allegory)

{That is a lie. Its also slippery slope argument.

Prove that beleivign that Jesus was a Liteal person and literlaly rose form the dead leads to Bigotry.

In fact, coming form a Bogot, the words are dismissable, but just taken on their own, you just connected two things that relaly arent shown to connect in rality.

That is, if we take Jesus literlaly, we will be narrow minded and Bogoted,a nd ruin the messga of Love.

It also leads to a quandry. If the story of Jesus was abotu Love, then how can taing it Liteally, as opposed to allegorigally, lead to Bigotry, when peipel who do so beleive Jesus literlaly lived and theirfore must live by the message, as it was delivered by a real messiah? That is contradicotry in and of itsself and highly illogical.

Now, tell me how takign Jesus's life and the Gispel stories Literally, a story you admit is based on Love, leads to Bigotry, and explain how someone who has shown disrespect and insult liek you, but who takes it allegoriclaly, is lead to real love.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 02, 2004.

Sorry that you think i am a clos-minded fool.To answer your question I am posting on this particular website because about 10 hours ago i saw the passion of the christ or "CHRIST" with acapital "C" I was moved by the movie despite a tad bit o excess of gore and found myself perusing a number of religious websites to see what the current "climate" was regarding homosexuals by the Catholic Church.I am 28 years old and as you can imagine haven't been a catholic for some time now.But I (mistakenly) thought i'd check out what the only religious background of stuff i knew had to say on the subject of fiercely unapologetic homosexuals such as myself. Of course I was right to not expect too much.I was a bit steamed for a while but i'm a little calmer now,remembering the movie. I suddenly feel a little guilty if you(zoraff?) feel that my beliefs are a personal attack on you. they are not. I feel however that a crack of logic in your wall of denial is a little visible when you three times say "EVEN IF.." So I'll proceed in that vein, you repeatedly ignore my bold-print excerpt of the U.C.L.A. story I keep refering to IN UTERO hormonal conditioning of the mammalian mouse brain.Obviously the mice who were not exposed did not exhibit the "arching " behavior.Once sexually matured the "she-mice-d" brain COULD NOT revert to supraNIH-region male sizing.What your refering to is hormone manipulation POST UTERO. I don't see why that and the "dud-stud" sheep observations don't move you to some compelling plausibility insight into Causative In-utero factors.Zoraff I AM NOT REFERING TO THE EASILY CONDITIONED MINUTAE OF NUERAL PATHWAYS, (cab drivers fighter pilots etc) I am talking about a specific Anatomical part of the brain whose ultra exact dimensions cannot(a matter of physically observable precision) be measureed in the current brain scan technology available A more high quality three-dimensional view is needed.The reason your stroke scan is innapropriate for this particulat anomaly. This is the only loose thread that would "open and Shut" the brain pysgiomomy question about the organic cause of homosexuality.the other would deliberately manipulating a pregnant woman's H-Y antigen levels and watching for other brain anomalies that are briefly observable ar birth as the result of hormonal imbalancing.and of course waiting to see if the a "gay-acting"effeminate child is produced.(See THE DR> BAGMIHL study) i posit that PHYSICAL things about me because whar you characterise as a phantom "BIRTH-BRAIN" are MARKEDLY different from other males.You need only look into BEYOND ESTABLISHED INCONTRAVERTIBLE genetic syndromes called KLINEFELTER'S SYNDROME to find physiologically contributing "paterns" in the study of sexology in homosexual males.As for taking responsibilty ,Yes I believe My brain like other things is and WAS different from birth and rather than fight the natural inclinations i had i chose to accept themI"M DAMNED CURIOUS OBVIOUSLY TO KNOW WHERE YOU CAME UP WITH THE DATA THAT HOMOSXUALS LIVE SHORTER LIFE SPANS. as for god or GOD "G" I was being general in reference to the widely-disseminated god as oppossed to a specific god.You must knoknow that somewhere deep-down the argument about the Judeo-Christian GOD and say, Zues existing is inarguable and unknowable it's pretty much square in the arena of faith.I feel kinda bad now for offending you especially when you detail your painful experiences about mistakenly being thought to be mentally ill when you were not. I do think i am a spiritual person(with an occasionally flare-up temper)and i firmly believe that there are beautiful positive things to be learned if you look at jesuschrist's life as allegory(i should have said that instead of "fairy Tale")None-th-less the same can be said for Zues who has a three thousand year leap on Christ as fae his staying power goes(if you count the greek incarnations of zeus)But of course there isn't an interesting compelling movie out right now about Zues by mel gibson so i'm not looking at the "Zues-worshipping" chatboards .My parents raised me so ulta-carefully and defensively as far no shortage of unconditional love that i basically emerged from adolescence being wholeheartedly gay into adulthood with virtually no emotional scars from being gay.To them i am etrnally grateful Parents like mine are truly born with "heavenly-brains"My mother reads this thread and admonished me that i raised with better manners.So I basically agree to disagree with y'all folks asa politely as i can now, and will trouble you no more. R.

-- R.L.Pena (becalee75@yahoo.com), April 03, 2004.

You say you were right not to "expect too much", yet apparently too much is exactly what you found. Too much truth to handle. But that is to be expected since Jesus Christ told His Church "when the Holy Spirit comes, He will guide you to all truth". If you are not interested in truth, the last thing you want to do is check out the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Even though there is not a shred of evidence linking homosexuality to any organic cause even after numerous studies specifically aimed at discovering such a link, and even though there is ample evidence for early childhood experience as the underlying cause of the disorder, in the final analysis it is really irrelevant whether homosexuality has a hidden biochemical/anatomical component or not. All sorts of human abnormalities have organic/genetic components - diabetes, Down Syndrome, hemophilia, schizophrenia, and some forms of cancer, to name a few. If an organic factor were discovered which predisposes persons to homosexual orientation, such information would have no bearing whatsoever on the disordered nature of the condition, or on the immoral nature of acts freely committed in response to the orientation.

I'm sorry to inform you that your parents, as loving and caring as they may well be, have very worldy brains, not heavenly at all. Their sincere but misguided support of your aberrant behavior may well contribute to your eventual forfeiture of eternal life, and possibly to theirs as well.

Incidentally, even if you don't recognize who Jesus Christ is, He clearly has one major advantage over Zeus. He exists.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 03, 2004.

R,
Please try to break up your posts into paragraphs for easier reading...thanks.

The position of the Church is that we are all loved by God. That He died for all of us.

The Church also continues the teaching brought down by Jesus that marriage is between a man and a woman and that sex belongs exclusively within marriage. This teaching is no different for any of us.

If you can live with both of these facts, than you can live comfortably in the Church Christ built.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson-nospam@hotmail.com), April 03, 2004.

Sorry that you think i am a clos-minded fool.

{I don't think it. You demonstrated it. You may tire of this same example, bugt you spelled god in a lower case G, but then called Zeus a God, in capitol G, as well as the God of common Sence and God of Technology. You go out of your way to demean ( In your mind what is) the Christain god, but will Honour, as though they are superior, all other gods. even to the poi of ignorign sandards of Grammer. ( The word god is not cappitolised as it is not a Poper noun, unless used for God, when it becomes a proper noun.)

Likewise, yous classing Christainity as both a fairy tale and mytholgy itsself is demeaning, and false. ( Chrisainity is a historical rleigion, not a myth based one. The events int he Bible have, by and large, been accepted as fact by the majority of Historians and archeologists, even f the more worldly and secular of them disocunt parts a as exageration.)

You also said that you beleived int he message of Christ as Allegory. Then behaved in auch a way as to demean others of differign veiw. This not onlyproves no devotion ot he central mesage of Christ, but alo seems to have no direct causation. Again, tis a slippery slope.

If you take the story literlaly, it lads to narow minded bigotry. If taken as allegory, it leads to benefit. You used no logical train of thought to demonstrate this as fact, youmeterely assertred it and expected us to beleive it.

So not only do you insylt what other peopel beleive in, you make pronouncments you canot prove.

You beleive what you want to be true, then present it as fact. If someone else has a differing opinion, you critisise them. even in this post, you said their where cracs in my wall of denial. In other words, you where Born gay, and its a proven fact, and I am living in Denial of the fac tthat peopel are Born Gay. The troubl is, their is no proof that pepel are Born Gay. You cant provide any. You won't consider the possibility tha you are worng thouhg.

You are a closed midned fool because you beleive a sa fact that Being Homosexual is semthign on is Born with. If anyone queatsions this assertion, you dismiss them as living in denial. even thoygh you cannot prove that this is the case.

Again, what if evidence turns up o the contrary? You have demonstrated that you woul ignore it.}-Zarove

To answer your question I am posting on this particular website because about 10 hours ago i saw the passion of the christ or "CHRIST" with acapital "C"

{Again, insult. It is the same as if you left it in lower case. You arr rubbing our faces in your disrepsect. Of cpurse, you won't realise that either.}-Zarove

I was moved by the movie despite a tad bit o excess of gore and found myself perusing a number of religious websites to see what the current "climate" was regarding homosexuals by the Catholic Church.

{That's nice. However, this thread in paeticular was discussing its causation. Since their is no real reason to belive that Homosexuality is nborn, and no research really makes the statement that it is, we are well within our ights to speculate on causes and possible treatments.

You seem tothink that such lines of thoght are Bigoted in and of themselves. Thus the only way to be Open Minded is to agree with you. Don't you see that as a bit arrogant, t think that yours is right because you beleive it and act as though your beleif is proven fact even barring anyhting that rpoves it?

Also, glad you liked the movie. May I suggest investigatign the Christain faith again. Not beign Cahtolic myself, I can assure you that many Chrisasn arent if you do not seek to return to that branch of the faith. I am sure you will learn form reputable sources that Jesus was a proven hisorical charecter, and not a Myth, and that you can easily return to God.}-Zarove

I am 28 years old and as you can imagine haven't been a catholic for some time now.

{Niced to know, however, I was never Catholic.I am 26.}-Zarove

But I (mistakenly) thought i'd check out what the only religious background of stuff i knew had to say on the subject of fiercely unapologetic homosexuals such as myself.

{You wherent nessisarily mistaken in seeing what others thought. Nor was that your intent. You wanted to see if the Catholic CHurhc had begun to accept Homsoexuality as normal and moral. I am sorry, but this is again a personal desire. You wan to force pepel to beleive asyou do witout real evidence ot he contrary. You know that being Gay is an innate feature that yu whre Born with, dispite the inconclusive natre of the researhc performed. You know that I ma living in denail becase I don beleive what you veleive, even if I have sound reason for beleiving what I beleive. ( Remember, I once did beleive it may be inborn. I no longer do.)

The point is that you want peiple to accept your consduct as moral because you have issues with people who disagree, and liek to feel morally superior to them by makign then out ot be bigots and closed minded for not agreeign with you. whats worse, you only beleive hat Homoseuxality is inborn to justify your own lifestyle, that makes any claim form you automaticlaly suspect. Form a scientific standpoint.}-Zarove

Of course I was right to not expect too much.

{We didnt treat you badly here. You treated us badly by insulting God, and callign Chrisyanity Mythology and fairie tales, while calign us Bigots for discussing the possible causes of Homosexuality. If you had your way, everythign woudl be censured. Peple woudl accept Homosexuality as innate and inborn hus moral and aceptable. You woudl not llow peopel to discuss alternatves.

The probelm is that htat is bad Science. Science operates on such discussions as we are having, if you compell everyone to agree, then no progress is made, only the party lin advocated.

To date, you havent relaly demonstrated any proof f Homosexuality beign Innate, nor have you done anyhting to dispell our owncomments.You in fact exhibit signs that no mater what the evidece s, you will only beleive it if it conforms to your own worldvewi. That is why I called you closed minded. I DID accept the Born Gay theory and the Gay Gene theory. Then I learned Biology and neurlogy. Now I adhere tot he idea that Homosexuality is predomenently Psycological in nature. ( In animals and Humans.) I beleive this based on research. }-Zarove

I was a bit steamed for a while but i'm a little calmer now,remembering the movie.

{Beign steamed at us is no reason to insult God, not to elevate other gods above him, nor to call Chrisainity a a wole myhtology and fairie tales. Nor did we offer any real reason for you to be steamed. we just disagree wiht your conclusions.

You take offence because we are discussing the possible cas of Homosexuality and arnet 100% behind hte " its inborn" ideology. Again, you refuse to even consider options. That is why you are mad at us, because we are considerig options you dont esat peopel to consider.}-Zarove

I suddenly feel a little guilty if you(zoraff?) feel that my beliefs are a personal attack on you.

{I am thicker skinned than this laddie bucks. I happen to know why you are doign this. You ar eprojecting your own insecuritied an angers ont he Catholic CHurch, and on what it worships, namely God and Jesus, but you also still feel a close kinship with it. ( You know Chrisanity in General is truth I wager, you just don feelcomfortable as a Homosexual in hat environment, so you lsh out, but this is a cursory evaluation base don what you have wirtten thusfar.) The probelm is you did make ot personal. You attakced God, Christ, Chrisyainity, and me, and everyone on this thread. ou attacked us by callign us narrow midned Bigots. You attacked us by sayign takign the story fo Hesus's life as literal lads ot Bigoter, and takign i as allegory is the proper way to undesand it. ( Thoug you offered NO reason for this to be true, and it stands now as unsupported assertion.) The fac tis tou are telling us what to beleive. we MUST beleive that Homoseuxlaity in inbirn and innate, dispite the lack of evidence, and we MUST acce thtat god and christ ( lower case opening letters) are myths and will be dispriven becuse you have rejected them .Don't you see how indignat you where?

}-Zarove

they are not.

{Yes, they where. Saying god will be forgotten ove time and replaced by the God of common Sence and the God of technology ( Makign sure the God of Common Senced and God of Technology are superior and thus capped) is itsself insulting, and only can be interpreted as a written attack on Chrisainity. Sayign I am a Bigot is an attack.

Saying that takign the stories of Christs life as Literal lads to narrow minednes and Bigotry , without backing up the asserion, while claimign that it si allegory andtaign it as allegoty is beutiful, wihtout relaly supportign that either, is an attakc.

Sayign that everyone who disagrees wih you is aBigoted is an attack.

No matter if you acknowledge your wrongs to us or not, these things where attacks.}-Zarove

I feel however that a crack of logic in your wall of denial is a little visible when you three times say "EVEN IF.."

{See, that is the sort of conecension we take offence at. The probelm is that the even if its a standard polemic. I am workign toward a degree in a sicnetific proffession, theirfore strong neutrality is stressed in my writting style. I also was once a reporter, and beleived in neutral reporting. I fall back n that sort of neutrality. This is why i tust my own assertions over yours. Yours are based on personal scope and emotion, mine arent. You want Homosexuality to be an inborn trait to vendicate your own homosexuality. I do not want Homosexuality to be anyhting, and merley exaine the Data. I am angry over pepel tryign to force the lie that Homoseuxlaity has been roven to be innate, when no conclusive evidence relaly sggests it is, and a growign body of reearhc indicates otherwise.

But I must be living in denial, becuae I do not accet Homoseuxality as inborn, which is a proven fact, becauae R.L. said so.

You knwo the facts and the turth, and of course, I must one day be brogu to light.

Whereas at leats I admit possibility that I am wrong, you have determined that you are right prior to any real evidence that you are. That is arrogance in the supreme and itsslef na insult.

Its also nievete. I say even if to make a point. A Poitn which you ignore often.}-Zarove

So I'll proceed in that vein, you repeatedly ignore my bold-print excerpt of the U.C.L.A.

{No I didnt. I refeeced it briefly, but the study has seriosu meathodological flas, and has ye tot be repeated. The syudt cannot, usign proper protocol, be discussed asevidence as it has not been properly repeated, and the results of each repeat experement peer reviewed.

Further, even if it had been and was conclusive, it wudl stil render Homosexuality an unnatural abnormation. ( Remmebr the scnetists had to articifially create the Gay mice" youspoke of.}- Zarove

story I keep refering to IN UTERO hormonal conditioning of the mammalian mouse brain.

{Yes, and see above. The researhc is still ongoing and thus pending. No, I am not in denial, I am waiting for proper completion of due scitific proccess. You on the oter hand leaped on this and accept it wholely becuae it agrees with you.}-Zarove

Obviously the mice who were not exposed did not exhibit the "arching " behavior.

{See above. Also archign behaviour is not nessisarily the zame as Homosexuality. Furhter still this woudl still render it a disorder.}- Zarove

Once sexually matured the "she-mice-d" brain COULD NOT revert to supraNIH-region male sizing.

{Sexual maturity happens well after Birht though. Could the mice have reerted proir to reachign sexual maturity? You overlok that queaion entirely. If so, then if we have a Human Male who is under abotu 12, coudl they also be adjusted prior to finilisation?

Likewise, how do we know the brians coudl not bereverted base don only one study? Could it be that the means ot reversal simpley wherent sdiscovered?

Ahgain, you will call this denial, but if you where open minded, or at least icnetific, you wodl relaise these are standard queatsons.

You cannto simpley take at face value the end results of an experement, you MUST ask queatsiins of its findings, and challenge it, thats what ceince dos. But in this case the scence allows you to formulate a mean for Homosexuality to be an innate, inborn trait. Theirfore any queastioning of it becomes Bigotry, closed mindedness, and denial. even if the queatsions ar standard.}-Zarove

What your refering to is hormone manipulation POST UTERO.

{Which is consistant with Homosexual brian studies , liek theones you where citing earlier. Again, you aven't proven anyhting.what you fail to realise, and in fact miss completley, is the fact that Mst Gay Men dont become Gay until they ar ein their mid to late teens. een those like you show signs o environmental facotrs. ( You say they treated you diffenetly because you whre different. However, if they had NOT treated tou differnetly, woudl you have ended up this way still? You will say yes, but you canot prove that.)

The mouse experement required artificial manipulation, wthat codl not have happened in nature. That in and of itsself leaves ample room for doubt.}-Zarove

I don't see why that and the "dud-stud" sheep observations don't move you to some compelling plausibility insight into Causative In- utero factors.

{Beca the same conditions that render Homosexuality in Humans can cause it in anumimals, and animals ar eproven to hae emoitonal and mental capacity, evn if to a lower extent. The reason i am not moved to accept Homosexuality as innate is because I use to, and am now convinced of the opposite. I looked a the tests, they relaly dont prove what you think they prove.

Heck, I am takign psyclogy classes. I see enouh studies to bore yo to death. Nothign is conclusive but more and more researchers ar movign away form the nnate Homosxualiy idea. Most still retain the Dispositional" thery, that epopel can be bn with factors that predispose them to Hoosexuality, but almost no one actally still beleives that Homosexuality is innate a a whole, pacage deal.

Why shoudl i ignore the body of evdence even in pro gay circiles, and beleive your end which shows a lack of real sicntific understanding?}-Zarove

Zoraff I AM NOT REFERING TO THE EASILY CONDITIONED MINUTAE OF NUERAL PATHWAYS,

{Unfortunately for tou, you where. The brian studies toy cited earlier where medical journals. Form adult males. Aso, all parts of the brain are subjec to change with use.}-Zarove

(cab drivers fighter pilots etc) I am talking about a specific Anatomical part of the brain whose ultra exact dimensions cannot(a matter of physically observable precision) be measureed in the current brain scan technology available

{I also meant autopsies. They have autospied Cab Driver and FIghter Pilot brians as well. They still have striking anatomical diffeences, whcih are Universlaly ageed upon as the end result of their proffesison shaping the areas needed for their tasks.

Yet I am expected to beleive it is somhow differnt with Homosexuality. omosexuals are Born with an anatomically diferent brain that canot change, but fighter polits wherent born with fighter pilot brians, but managed to reshape their brians to operate fighter jets. Sorry, that dosnt fly.

Homosexuals have brians that, like heterosecuals, repsond to stimuli and build complext strictires, ofen augmenting the whoke brain structure, and often realigining differign parts of the brian, to suit the wa they think and live.why shoudl I beleive Homosexuals are slaves of their brian fomations, and everyone else is master?}- Zarove

A more high quality three-dimensional view is needed.The reason your stroke scan is innapropriate for this particulat anomaly.

{The fact that you call it an anomali itssle fis indicative of i beign a disorder, bu the way. And again, they have autopsied Fighter Pilot and Cabbie brians. Fact is, brian structures can be radiclay different in pepel of differing proffesisons.Tey are also radiclaly different between African Tribsemen and New York buisnessmen. Again, why is it that Large Brain structures ar eundertsood t develop as the brian is sued, in all areas except Homosexuality? Woudlnt we expect Homosexuals to have diffeent brain structures than heterosexuals if they used thei brian differnetly?}-Zarove

This is the only loose thread that would "open and Shut" the brain pysgiomomy question about the organic cause of homosexuality.

{B thtis presupposes an organic cause and eliminates the other theories, which havent been dealt with. Again, you WANT their to be an organic cause. Thi odesnt man that is bee proven, and neurology i not an "Open and Shut" Sicnece.}-Zarove

the other would deliberately manipulating a pregnant woman's H-Y antigen levels and watching for other brain anomalies that are briefly observable ar birth as the result of hormonal imbalancing.

{And if this fails to end in a Homosexual, what woudl you do? Even if it does, it wodl mean Homoseuals are the end reuslt of a chemical imbalance and ake it back on the disorder list, alongside schitzophrinia.}-Zarove

and of course waiting to see if the a "gay-acting"effeminate child is produced.

{Which lead to three possibilities.

1: He wl be prodced. But this wil prve Homosexuality is the ned result of a Hormonal dsordedr that an be cured and treated.It woudl be classed as a Hormonal disorder.

2: he wll be prodced, but will show tha only an unnatural set of cercumstances that is either highly improbably i nnature, or else imposisble n nature, wasreqiried, proiving morst Homoseuals are Homosexual for a diffeent reason. It woul still be classed as a disorder.

3: He will not be prodiced at all, which is a posisbility you think is impossible. ( After all, I am the one living in denial, you alreayd now that he will ebcase you said so.) If the experement fals to prodice Homosexuals, then yur entre framework wudl need to be scrapped.

Just the end posisbilities. }-Zarove

(See THE DR> BAGMIHL study) i posit that PHYSICAL things about me because whar you characterise as a phantom "BIRTH-BRAIN" are MARKEDLY different from other males.

{But he cannot prove this, as h doesnt have his Birth Brian, he has hi currentone. Again, brian structures, even large formations, are not static, exspecially in earlu CHildhood, and can develop radiclaly differnetly due to behaviour and environment.}-Zarove

You need only look into BEYOND ESTABLISHED INCONTRAVERTIBLE genetic syndromes called KLINEFELTER'S SYNDROME to find physiologically contributing "paterns" in the study of sexology in homosexual males.

If you beleive pro gay propogsnda. Those studies where discredited long ago...}-Zarove

As for taking responsibilty ,Yes I believe My brain like other things is and WAS different from birth and rather than fight the natural inclinations i had i chose to accept them

{Bt you arent takign repsobcibility, you are pasing the buck. what if it is discovered that Homosexuality is a Pyscological state withn the next six months, woudl to beleive it, or woudl toy persist in beleivign you whre Born Gay? You sad I was livign in denial. However, you are theone who will not consider other possibilities. You deny een the posisbility that you wherent Born Gay. its a proven fac tthat proo ignorant fools like Zarove must grow to learn and accpet. You ar eon the moral and intellectusl high gron d and I am below you. Not only are you arrogant, but you ar in denial yourself. You did not accpet your natural inclinations, you deeloped Homosexual tendnacies over time based on your childhood experiences and beign called effiminate. ( You say you where called that becae you where that, but if you had not been called effiminate, woudl you have been gay? ou never ask that queatsion honeslty, and will answer yes wohtout relaly considerign it.) }-Zarove

I"M DAMNED CURIOUS OBVIOUSLY TO KNOW WHERE YOU CAME UP WITH THE DATA THAT HOMOSXUALS LIVE SHORTER LIFE SPANS.

{They did three seperatr studies on it. I will try to find the exact names of the reports.}-Zarove

as for god or GOD "G" I was being general in reference to the widely- disseminated god as oppossed to a specific god.

{That is a lie. You aid your god. You swher eobviosuly referinging the god CHristaisn worshipo. The sentence strcture des NOT allow that posisbility, and sasying it is not only an insult to my ntellegence, but is also a mean of reattainign hat moral high ground again. You whrent beign bogoted or arrogant, you didnt put it in capitl becuae it was generic and I misunderstoiid.

Sorry, thats a lie. You where referign to God as Chrisaisn beleiv ein him. Not to a generic formation, as is clear form your own writings.}

You must knoknow that somewhere deep-down the argument about the Judeo-Christian GOD and say, Zues existing is inarguable and unknowable

{Deep doen inside I know the reverse. Zeus was a didfferent sort of god. But thansk for reminding me, you called Zeus a God ( Cap G). If you meant a generic god as tyou claimed earlier, why is it you Honoured Zeus witha CP g? It sure seemed that Zeus wasa God as well as the God of OCmmon Sence and God of Technology, tht where superior to god as in Christyainity. But that was justa mistake on my paet becuse I am ingorant.

Sorry, but God's existance is oriven in Philoosphical terms. Zeus, who is more cental and is not given the attributes, has been disproven.The arugments for one dont fitt he arugments for the other. ( Zeus is not the prime mover for instance.)}-Zarove

it's pretty much square in the arena of faith.

{Not relaly. Rationally the argumets are diferent becse the atrobutes are different.}-Zarove

I feel kinda bad now for offending you especially when you detail your painful experiences about mistakenly being thought to be mentally ill when you were not.

{But then you insult me again by ying. Yiu said you spelled int in a lower case G becuas eit was generic, but look at what tyou wrote.

".(remember it was you folks who used god's ok of slavery i.e. the isrealites being told how to treat their slaves...to endorse slavery in the south during the civil war(yes this was another religious argument as potent at the time as abolitionists' theories)."

Thi si not a generic god here, its God himself.

How about this Gem.

"As for your "god",and other fairy tales, where is Zues now?(A God that was believed in and worshipped by ignorants for thousands of years.)Your god will go the way of all the others before him refereed to and studied as"Christian Mythology""

Notice, my god is in lower cane, the other Gods arent. That isnt insulting how? Also you called it a fiarie tale and Mythology. sorry, thsi proves malicius intent, and not misundertsanding on my part.

As for my childhood, I greww out of my oain, you hsvent. That is thr proiblem. You think that you where caled Gay becase you where Gay and that it had no effect in you becomign Gay. Indeed, you think you where Birn Gay and cannot change. HYet you accept that I wasnt mentally ill. I sure acted mentlaly ill.

Aain, Hoiw is it that you can accept that what did my Family, School, and Peers have such an effect on my personality, causign me to exhibit symptoms of Mental llness I didnt posisess, yet rejec tthe same arugment for yourself?

You where called effiminage and gay becaue you where effiminate and Gay. You where treated diffeently bcaue you whee different.

I, on the other hand, wasnt different, btu as treated diffeently and became differnet.

Dont you see, we had the same experience. But with me you are willign to accept it was all environmental, but you cant acept the aem for yourself, and csll me bigoted becaue I beleive otherwise.

If you are really feelign guilty over what you said, then please consider than I am not soem Homophobe who doesnt knwow hat hes tlakign about.Maybe I d hae reaons ot belive is not innate that arent based on predjudice.

Maybe considerign how you where treated and its effect son you arent misguided. }-Zarove

I do think i am a spiritual person(with an occasionally flare-up temper)and i firmly believe that there are beautiful positive things to be learned if you look at jesuschrist's life as allegory(i should have said that instead of "fairy Tale")

{You said both. But the part we contested was the part where you said that talign it literlaly leads to narow minde docnclusions and Bigotry. You relaly asserted that and didnt prove it. }-Zarove

None-th-less the same can be said for Zues who has a three thousand year leap on Christ as fae his staying power goes(if you count the greek incarnations of zeus)

{The Greek form of Zeus was Zeus. The romans called him Jupiter. This is another msitake in toyr artivle. Its liek when you said the American Medical Association declassed Homoseuality as a Disorder. ( I checked ot make sue, it isnt. It was the American Psycolgical Association.)Also, we arent relaly discussing syying power. Few Historians actually beleive Jesus was a Mythical charecter, and few beleive Zes was real.

It is almost universally agreed upon as fact that Jesus Lived. The only real dispute is over rather or not he worled Miralces and was god incarnate. Zeus doesnt have that.

Zeus also lacks morlity. He woudl have sex swith multiple w,en,even if married, and coerce gods and mortals into doing his will. he is not to be imulated, and was not even loved by his worshippers.}-Zarove

But of course there isn't an interesting compelling movie out right now about Zues by mel gibson so i'm not looking at the "Zues- worshipping" chatboards .

{een if their where, Zeus wudlnt be seen as good by you. Read the Myths, he wasnt alway so nice a guy.}-Zarove

My parents raised me so ulta-carefully and defensively as far no shortage of unconditional love that i basically emerged from adolescence being wholeheartedly gay into adulthood with virtually no emotional scars from being gay.

{That's nice. But you now also admited another enironmental facotr. I to grew up in exteeme isolation, and m Mother was overprotective. The fac tthat his is agreed on o Psycological circiles as a way to cultuvate mental deviance is well recorded. But then again, they where treatign you differnelt because you hwere different. not even a possibility that their treatign you differnetly lead to your Homosexuality beign fomented... youkwo this is fact becase you feel it in your heaet. ( Sadly, an Outside observer may see it differnelty and be mistaken as a Bigot.)}-Zarove

To them i am etrnally grateful Parents like mine are truly born with "heavenly-brains"My mother reads this thread and admonished me that i raised with better manners.

{Good for her. However, all we sggested on this thread was that yor environemtnal factors coudl have cultuivated anrd reinforced your Homosexuality, a theory you reject base don flawed reasoning.

Another thing I checked and made sure of. Those brian studies dont seem to exist, unless you are refeneing the Dean Hammer studies. If so, then you are mistaken, as they where discredited in 1995.}-Zarove

So I basically agree to disagree with y'all folks asa politely as i can now, and will trouble you no more. R.

{That is what you shoudl have done form the start. This woudl have lead to a better ocnversation and less irritation. However, you must acknowledge that the Brian Studies where either nonexistant or where hte Hammer studies, which where discredited, and I ask you to acknowledge yurother errors.}

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 03, 2004.

R,
Some literature you might be interested in reading:

Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message to Parents of Homosexual Children and Suggestions for Pastoral Ministers

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 03, 2004.

Sorry that you think i am a clos-minded fool.

{I don't think it. You demonstrated it. You may tire of this same example, bugt you spelled god in a lower case G, but then called Zeus a God, in capitol G, as well as the God of common Sence and God of Technology. You go out of your way to demean ( In your mind what is) the Christain god, but will Honour, as though they are superior, all other gods. even to the poi of ignorign sandards of Grammer. ( The word god is not cappitolised as it is not a Poper noun, unless used for God, when it becomes a proper noun.)

Likewise, yous classing Christainity as both a fairy tale and mytholgy itsself is demeaning, and false. ( Chrisainity is a historical rleigion, not a myth based one. The events int he Bible have, by and large, been accepted as fact by the majority of Historians and archeologists, even f the more worldly and secular of them disocunt parts a as exageration.)

You also said that you beleived int he message of Christ as Allegory. Then behaved in auch a way as to demean others of differign veiw. This not onlyproves no devotion ot he central mesage of Christ, but alo seems to have no direct causation. Again, tis a slippery slope.

If you take the story literlaly, it lads to narow minded bigotry. If taken as allegory, it leads to benefit. You used no logical train of thought to demonstrate this as fact, youmeterely assertred it and expected us to beleive it.

So not only do you insylt what other peopel beleive in, you make pronouncments you canot prove.

You beleive what you want to be true, then present it as fact. If someone else has a differing opinion, you critisise them. even in this post, you said their where cracs in my wall of denial. In other words, you where Born gay, and its a proven fact, and I am living in Denial of the fac tthat peopel are Born Gay. The troubl is, their is no proof that pepel are Born Gay. You cant provide any. You won't consider the possibility tha you are worng thouhg.

You are a closed midned fool because you beleive a sa fact that Being Homosexual is semthign on is Born with. If anyone queatsions this assertion, you dismiss them as living in denial. even thoygh you cannot prove that this is the case.

Again, what if evidence turns up o the contrary? You have demonstrated that you woul ignore it.}-Zarove

To answer your question I am posting on this particular website because about 10 hours ago i saw the passion of the christ or "CHRIST" with acapital "C"

{Again, insult. It is the same as if you left it in lower case. You arr rubbing our faces in your disrepsect. Of cpurse, you won't realise that either.}-Zarove

I was moved by the movie despite a tad bit o excess of gore and found myself perusing a number of religious websites to see what the current "climate" was regarding homosexuals by the Catholic Church.

{That's nice. However, this thread in paeticular was discussing its causation. Since their is no real reason to belive that Homosexuality is nborn, and no research really makes the statement that it is, we are well within our ights to speculate on causes and possible treatments.

You seem tothink that such lines of thoght are Bigoted in and of themselves. Thus the only way to be Open Minded is to agree with you. Don't you see that as a bit arrogant, t think that yours is right because you beleive it and act as though your beleif is proven fact even barring anyhting that rpoves it?

Also, glad you liked the movie. May I suggest investigatign the Christain faith again. Not beign Cahtolic myself, I can assure you that many Chrisasn arent if you do not seek to return to that branch of the faith. I am sure you will learn form reputable sources that Jesus was a proven hisorical charecter, and not a Myth, and that you can easily return to God.}-Zarove

I am 28 years old and as you can imagine haven't been a catholic for some time now.

{Niced to know, however, I was never Catholic.I am 26.}-Zarove

But I (mistakenly) thought i'd check out what the only religious background of stuff i knew had to say on the subject of fiercely unapologetic homosexuals such as myself.

{You wherent nessisarily mistaken in seeing what others thought. Nor was that your intent. You wanted to see if the Catholic CHurhc had begun to accept Homsoexuality as normal and moral. I am sorry, but this is again a personal desire. You wan to force pepel to beleive asyou do witout real evidence ot he contrary. You know that being Gay is an innate feature that yu whre Born with, dispite the inconclusive natre of the researhc performed. You know that I ma living in denail becase I don beleive what you veleive, even if I have sound reason for beleiving what I beleive. ( Remember, I once did beleive it may be inborn. I no longer do.)

The point is that you want peiple to accept your consduct as moral because you have issues with people who disagree, and liek to feel morally superior to them by makign then out ot be bigots and closed minded for not agreeign with you. whats worse, you only beleive hat Homoseuxality is inborn to justify your own lifestyle, that makes any claim form you automaticlaly suspect. Form a scientific standpoint.}-Zarove

Of course I was right to not expect too much.

{We didnt treat you badly here. You treated us badly by insulting God, and callign Chrisyanity Mythology and fairie tales, while calign us Bigots for discussing the possible causes of Homosexuality. If you had your way, everythign woudl be censured. Peple woudl accept Homosexuality as innate and inborn hus moral and aceptable. You woudl not llow peopel to discuss alternatves.

The probelm is that htat is bad Science. Science operates on such discussions as we are having, if you compell everyone to agree, then no progress is made, only the party lin advocated.

To date, you havent relaly demonstrated any proof f Homosexuality beign Innate, nor have you done anyhting to dispell our owncomments.You in fact exhibit signs that no mater what the evidece s, you will only beleive it if it conforms to your own worldvewi. That is why I called you closed minded. I DID accept the Born Gay theory and the Gay Gene theory. Then I learned Biology and neurlogy. Now I adhere tot he idea that Homosexuality is predomenently Psycological in nature. ( In animals and Humans.) I beleive this based on research. }-Zarove

I was a bit steamed for a while but i'm a little calmer now,remembering the movie.

{Beign steamed at us is no reason to insult God, not to elevate other gods above him, nor to call Chrisainity a a wole myhtology and fairie tales. Nor did we offer any real reason for you to be steamed. we just disagree wiht your conclusions.

You take offence because we are discussing the possible cas of Homosexuality and arnet 100% behind hte " its inborn" ideology. Again, you refuse to even consider options. That is why you are mad at us, because we are considerig options you dont esat peopel to consider.}-Zarove

I suddenly feel a little guilty if you(zoraff?) feel that my beliefs are a personal attack on you.

{I am thicker skinned than this laddie bucks. I happen to know why you are doign this. You ar eprojecting your own insecuritied an angers ont he Catholic CHurch, and on what it worships, namely God and Jesus, but you also still feel a close kinship with it. ( You know Chrisanity in General is truth I wager, you just don feelcomfortable as a Homosexual in hat environment, so you lsh out, but this is a cursory evaluation base don what you have wirtten thusfar.) The probelm is you did make ot personal. You attakced God, Christ, Chrisyainity, and me, and everyone on this thread. ou attacked us by callign us narrow midned Bigots. You attacked us by sayign takign the story fo Hesus's life as literal lads ot Bigoter, and takign i as allegory is the proper way to undesand it. ( Thoug you offered NO reason for this to be true, and it stands now as unsupported assertion.) The fac tis tou are telling us what to beleive. we MUST beleive that Homoseuxlaity in inbirn and innate, dispite the lack of evidence, and we MUST acce thtat god and christ ( lower case opening letters) are myths and will be dispriven becuse you have rejected them .Don't you see how indignat you where?

}-Zarove

they are not.

{Yes, they where. Saying god will be forgotten ove time and replaced by the God of common Sence and the God of technology ( Makign sure the God of Common Senced and God of Technology are superior and thus capped) is itsself insulting, and only can be interpreted as a written attack on Chrisainity. Sayign I am a Bigot is an attack.

Saying that takign the stories of Christs life as Literal lads to narrow minednes and Bigotry , without backing up the asserion, while claimign that it si allegory andtaign it as allegoty is beutiful, wihtout relaly supportign that either, is an attakc.

Sayign that everyone who disagrees wih you is aBigoted is an attack.

No matter if you acknowledge your wrongs to us or not, these things where attacks.}-Zarove

I feel however that a crack of logic in your wall of denial is a little visible when you three times say "EVEN IF.."

{See, that is the sort of conecension we take offence at. The probelm is that the even if its a standard polemic. I am workign toward a degree in a sicnetific proffession, theirfore strong neutrality is stressed in my writting style. I also was once a reporter, and beleived in neutral reporting. I fall back n that sort of neutrality. This is why i tust my own assertions over yours. Yours are based on personal scope and emotion, mine arent. You want Homosexuality to be an inborn trait to vendicate your own homosexuality. I do not want Homosexuality to be anyhting, and merley exaine the Data. I am angry over pepel tryign to force the lie that Homoseuxlaity has been roven to be innate, when no conclusive evidence relaly sggests it is, and a growign body of reearhc indicates otherwise.

But I must be living in denial, becuae I do not accet Homoseuxality as inborn, which is a proven fact, becauae R.L. said so.

You knwo the facts and the turth, and of course, I must one day be brogu to light.

Whereas at leats I admit possibility that I am wrong, you have determined that you are right prior to any real evidence that you are. That is arrogance in the supreme and itsslef na insult.

Its also nievete. I say even if to make a point. A Poitn which you ignore often.}-Zarove

So I'll proceed in that vein, you repeatedly ignore my bold-print excerpt of the U.C.L.A.

{No I didnt. I refeeced it briefly, but the study has seriosu meathodological flas, and has ye tot be repeated. The syudt cannot, usign proper protocol, be discussed asevidence as it has not been properly repeated, and the results of each repeat experement peer reviewed.

Further, even if it had been and was conclusive, it wudl stil render Homosexuality an unnatural abnormation. ( Remmebr the scnetists had to articifially create the Gay mice" youspoke of.}- Zarove

story I keep refering to IN UTERO hormonal conditioning of the mammalian mouse brain.

{Yes, and see above. The researhc is still ongoing and thus pending. No, I am not in denial, I am waiting for proper completion of due scitific proccess. You on the oter hand leaped on this and accept it wholely becuae it agrees with you.}-Zarove

Obviously the mice who were not exposed did not exhibit the "arching " behavior.

{See above. Also archign behaviour is not nessisarily the zame as Homosexuality. Furhter still this woudl still render it a disorder.}- Zarove

Once sexually matured the "she-mice-d" brain COULD NOT revert to supraNIH-region male sizing.

{Sexual maturity happens well after Birht though. Could the mice have reerted proir to reachign sexual maturity? You overlok that queaion entirely. If so, then if we have a Human Male who is under abotu 12, coudl they also be adjusted prior to finilisation?

Likewise, how do we know the brians coudl not bereverted base don only one study? Could it be that the means ot reversal simpley wherent sdiscovered?

Ahgain, you will call this denial, but if you where open minded, or at least icnetific, you wodl relaise these are standard queatsons.

You cannto simpley take at face value the end results of an experement, you MUST ask queatsiins of its findings, and challenge it, thats what ceince dos. But in this case the scence allows you to formulate a mean for Homosexuality to be an innate, inborn trait. Theirfore any queastioning of it becomes Bigotry, closed mindedness, and denial. even if the queatsions ar standard.}-Zarove

What your refering to is hormone manipulation POST UTERO.

{Which is consistant with Homosexual brian studies , liek theones you where citing earlier. Again, you aven't proven anyhting.what you fail to realise, and in fact miss completley, is the fact that Mst Gay Men dont become Gay until they ar ein their mid to late teens. een those like you show signs o environmental facotrs. ( You say they treated you diffenetly because you whre different. However, if they had NOT treated tou differnetly, woudl you have ended up this way still? You will say yes, but you canot prove that.)

The mouse experement required artificial manipulation, wthat codl not have happened in nature. That in and of itsself leaves ample room for doubt.}-Zarove

I don't see why that and the "dud-stud" sheep observations don't move you to some compelling plausibility insight into Causative In- utero factors.

{Beca the same conditions that render Homosexuality in Humans can cause it in anumimals, and animals ar eproven to hae emoitonal and mental capacity, evn if to a lower extent. The reason i am not moved to accept Homosexuality as innate is because I use to, and am now convinced of the opposite. I looked a the tests, they relaly dont prove what you think they prove.

Heck, I am takign psyclogy classes. I see enouh studies to bore yo to death. Nothign is conclusive but more and more researchers ar movign away form the nnate Homosxualiy idea. Most still retain the Dispositional" thery, that epopel can be bn with factors that predispose them to Hoosexuality, but almost no one actally still beleives that Homosexuality is innate a a whole, pacage deal.

Why shoudl i ignore the body of evdence even in pro gay circiles, and beleive your end which shows a lack of real sicntific understanding?}-Zarove

Zoraff I AM NOT REFERING TO THE EASILY CONDITIONED MINUTAE OF NUERAL PATHWAYS,

{Unfortunately for tou, you where. The brian studies toy cited earlier where medical journals. Form adult males. Aso, all parts of the brain are subjec to change with use.}-Zarove

(cab drivers fighter pilots etc) I am talking about a specific Anatomical part of the brain whose ultra exact dimensions cannot(a matter of physically observable precision) be measureed in the current brain scan technology available

{I also meant autopsies. They have autospied Cab Driver and FIghter Pilot brians as well. They still have striking anatomical diffeences, whcih are Universlaly ageed upon as the end result of their proffesison shaping the areas needed for their tasks.

Yet I am expected to beleive it is somhow differnt with Homosexuality. omosexuals are Born with an anatomically diferent brain that canot change, but fighter polits wherent born with fighter pilot brians, but managed to reshape their brians to operate fighter jets. Sorry, that dosnt fly.

Homosexuals have brians that, like heterosecuals, repsond to stimuli and build complext strictires, ofen augmenting the whoke brain structure, and often realigining differign parts of the brian, to suit the wa they think and live.why shoudl I beleive Homosexuals are slaves of their brian fomations, and everyone else is master?}- Zarove

A more high quality three-dimensional view is needed.The reason your stroke scan is innapropriate for this particulat anomaly.

{The fact that you call it an anomali itssle fis indicative of i beign a disorder, bu the way. And again, they have autopsied Fighter Pilot and Cabbie brians. Fact is, brian structures can be radiclay different in pepel of differing proffesisons.Tey are also radiclaly different between African Tribsemen and New York buisnessmen. Again, why is it that Large Brain structures ar eundertsood t develop as the brian is sued, in all areas except Homosexuality? Woudlnt we expect Homosexuals to have diffeent brain structures than heterosexuals if they used thei brian differnetly?}-Zarove

This is the only loose thread that would "open and Shut" the brain pysgiomomy question about the organic cause of homosexuality.

{B thtis presupposes an organic cause and eliminates the other theories, which havent been dealt with. Again, you WANT their to be an organic cause. Thi odesnt man that is bee proven, and neurology i not an "Open and Shut" Sicnece.}-Zarove

the other would deliberately manipulating a pregnant woman's H-Y antigen levels and watching for other brain anomalies that are briefly observable ar birth as the result of hormonal imbalancing.

{And if this fails to end in a Homosexual, what woudl you do? Even if it does, it wodl mean Homoseuals are the end reuslt of a chemical imbalance and ake it back on the disorder list, alongside schitzophrinia.}-Zarove

and of course waiting to see if the a "gay-acting"effeminate child is produced.

{Which lead to three possibilities.

1: He wl be prodced. But this wil prve Homosexuality is the ned result of a Hormonal dsordedr that an be cured and treated.It woudl be classed as a Hormonal disorder.

2: he wll be prodced, but will show tha only an unnatural set of cercumstances that is either highly improbably i nnature, or else imposisble n nature, wasreqiried, proiving morst Homoseuals are Homosexual for a diffeent reason. It woul still be classed as a disorder.

3: He will not be prodiced at all, which is a posisbility you think is impossible. ( After all, I am the one living in denial, you alreayd now that he will ebcase you said so.) If the experement fals to prodice Homosexuals, then yur entre framework wudl need to be scrapped.

Just the end posisbilities. }-Zarove

(See THE DR> BAGMIHL study) i posit that PHYSICAL things about me because whar you characterise as a phantom "BIRTH-BRAIN" are MARKEDLY different from other males.

{But he cannot prove this, as h doesnt have his Birth Brian, he has hi currentone. Again, brian structures, even large formations, are not static, exspecially in earlu CHildhood, and can develop radiclaly differnetly due to behaviour and environment.}-Zarove

You need only look into BEYOND ESTABLISHED INCONTRAVERTIBLE genetic syndromes called KLINEFELTER'S SYNDROME to find physiologically contributing "paterns" in the study of sexology in homosexual males.

If you beleive pro gay propogsnda. Those studies where discredited long ago...}-Zarove

As for taking responsibilty ,Yes I believe My brain like other things is and WAS different from birth and rather than fight the natural inclinations i had i chose to accept them

{Bt you arent takign repsobcibility, you are pasing the buck. what if it is discovered that Homosexuality is a Pyscological state withn the next six months, woudl to beleive it, or woudl toy persist in beleivign you whre Born Gay? You sad I was livign in denial. However, you are theone who will not consider other possibilities. You deny een the posisbility that you wherent Born Gay. its a proven fac tthat proo ignorant fools like Zarove must grow to learn and accpet. You ar eon the moral and intellectusl high gron d and I am below you. Not only are you arrogant, but you ar in denial yourself. You did not accpet your natural inclinations, you deeloped Homosexual tendnacies over time based on your childhood experiences and beign called effiminate. ( You say you where called that becae you where that, but if you had not been called effiminate, woudl you have been gay? ou never ask that queatsion honeslty, and will answer yes wohtout relaly considerign it.) }-Zarove

I"M DAMNED CURIOUS OBVIOUSLY TO KNOW WHERE YOU CAME UP WITH THE DATA THAT HOMOSXUALS LIVE SHORTER LIFE SPANS.

{They did three seperatr studies on it. I will try to find the exact names of the reports.}-Zarove

as for god or GOD "G" I was being general in reference to the widely- disseminated god as oppossed to a specific god.

{That is a lie. You aid your god. You swher eobviosuly referinging the god CHristaisn worshipo. The sentence strcture des NOT allow that posisbility, and sasying it is not only an insult to my ntellegence, but is also a mean of reattainign hat moral high ground again. You whrent beign bogoted or arrogant, you didnt put it in capitl becuae it was generic and I misunderstoiid.

Sorry, thats a lie. You where referign to God as Chrisaisn beleiv ein him. Not to a generic formation, as is clear form your own writings.}

You must knoknow that somewhere deep-down the argument about the Judeo-Christian GOD and say, Zues existing is inarguable and unknowable

{Deep doen inside I know the reverse. Zeus was a didfferent sort of god. But thansk for reminding me, you called Zeus a God ( Cap G). If you meant a generic god as tyou claimed earlier, why is it you Honoured Zeus witha CP g? It sure seemed that Zeus wasa God as well as the God of OCmmon Sence and God of Technology, tht where superior to god as in Christyainity. But that was justa mistake on my paet becuse I am ingorant.

Sorry, but God's existance is oriven in Philoosphical terms. Zeus, who is more cental and is not given the attributes, has been disproven.The arugments for one dont fitt he arugments for the other. ( Zeus is not the prime mover for instance.)}-Zarove

it's pretty much square in the arena of faith.

{Not relaly. Rationally the argumets are diferent becse the atrobutes are different.}-Zarove

I feel kinda bad now for offending you especially when you detail your painful experiences about mistakenly being thought to be mentally ill when you were not.

{But then you insult me again by ying. Yiu said you spelled int in a lower case G becuas eit was generic, but look at what tyou wrote.

".(remember it was you folks who used god's ok of slavery i.e. the isrealites being told how to treat their slaves...to endorse slavery in the south during the civil war(yes this was another religious argument as potent at the time as abolitionists' theories)."

Thi si not a generic god here, its God himself.

How about this Gem.

"As for your "god",and other fairy tales, where is Zues now?(A God that was believed in and worshipped by ignorants for thousands of years.)Your god will go the way of all the others before him refereed to and studied as"Christian Mythology""

Notice, my god is in lower cane, the other Gods arent. That isnt insulting how? Also you called it a fiarie tale and Mythology. sorry, thsi proves malicius intent, and not misundertsanding on my part.

As for my childhood, I greww out of my oain, you hsvent. That is thr proiblem. You think that you where caled Gay becase you where Gay and that it had no effect in you becomign Gay. Indeed, you think you where Birn Gay and cannot change. HYet you accept that I wasnt mentally ill. I sure acted mentlaly ill.

Aain, Hoiw is it that you can accept that what did my Family, School, and Peers have such an effect on my personality, causign me to exhibit symptoms of Mental llness I didnt posisess, yet rejec tthe same arugment for yourself?

You where called effiminage and gay becaue you where effiminate and Gay. You where treated diffeently bcaue you whee different.

I, on the other hand, wasnt different, btu as treated diffeently and became differnet.

Dont you see, we had the same experience. But with me you are willign to accept it was all environmental, but you cant acept the aem for yourself, and csll me bigoted becaue I beleive otherwise.

If you are really feelign guilty over what you said, then please consider than I am not soem Homophobe who doesnt knwow hat hes tlakign about.Maybe I d hae reaons ot belive is not innate that arent based on predjudice.

Maybe considerign how you where treated and its effect son you arent misguided. }-Zarove

I do think i am a spiritual person(with an occasionally flare-up temper)and i firmly believe that there are beautiful positive things to be learned if you look at jesuschrist's life as allegory(i should have said that instead of "fairy Tale")

{You said both. But the part we contested was the part where you said that talign it literlaly leads to narow minde docnclusions and Bigotry. You relaly asserted that and didnt prove it. }-Zarove

None-th-less the same can be said for Zues who has a three thousand year leap on Christ as fae his staying power goes(if you count the greek incarnations of zeus)

{The Greek form of Zeus was Zeus. The romans called him Jupiter. This is another msitake in toyr artivle. Its liek when you said the American Medical Association declassed Homoseuality as a Disorder. ( I checked ot make sue, it isnt. It was the American Psycolgical Association.)Also, we arent relaly discussing syying power. Few Historians actually beleive Jesus was a Mythical charecter, and few beleive Zes was real.

It is almost universally agreed upon as fact that Jesus Lived. The only real dispute is over rather or not he worled Miralces and was god incarnate. Zeus doesnt have that.

Zeus also lacks morlity. He woudl have sex swith multiple w,en,even if married, and coerce gods and mortals into doing his will. he is not to be imulated, and was not even loved by his worshippers.}-Zarove

But of course there isn't an interesting compelling movie out right now about Zues by mel gibson so i'm not looking at the "Zues- worshipping" chatboards .

{een if their where, Zeus wudlnt be seen as good by you. Read the Myths, he wasnt alway so nice a guy.}-Zarove

My parents raised me so ulta-carefully and defensively as far no shortage of unconditional love that i basically emerged from adolescence being wholeheartedly gay into adulthood with virtually no emotional scars from being gay.

{That's nice. But you now also admited another enironmental facotr. I to grew up in exteeme isolation, and m Mother was overprotective. The fac tthat his is agreed on o Psycological circiles as a way to cultuvate mental deviance is well recorded. But then again, they where treatign you differnelt because you hwere different. not even a possibility that their treatign you differnetly lead to your Homosexuality beign fomented... youkwo this is fact becase you feel it in your heaet. ( Sadly, an Outside observer may see it differnelty and be mistaken as a Bigot.)}-Zarove

To them i am etrnally grateful Parents like mine are truly born with "heavenly-brains"My mother reads this thread and admonished me that i raised with better manners.

{Good for her. However, all we sggested on this thread was that yor environemtnal factors coudl have cultuivated anrd reinforced your Homosexuality, a theory you reject base don flawed reasoning.

Another thing I checked and made sure of. Those brian studies dont seem to exist, unless you are refeneing the Dean Hammer studies. If so, then you are mistaken, as they where discredited in 1995.}-Zarove

So I basically agree to disagree with y'all folks asa politely as i can now, and will trouble you no more. R.

{That is what you shoudl have done form the start. This woudl have lead to a better ocnversation and less irritation. However, you must acknowledge that the Brian Studies where either nonexistant or where hte Hammer studies, which where discredited, and I ask you to acknowledge yurother errors.}

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 03, 2004.

Goodness. This thread exploded today. I don't have time to read it all, but I do want to point out a couple of things.

First, I think there is a regrettable statement in the document, "Homoexuality and Hope":

"It should be noted that almost without exception, those who regard therapy as unethical also reject abstinence from non-marital sexual activity as a minimal goal (Barrett 1996[97]), and among the therapists who accept homosexual acts as normal many find nothing wrong with infidelity in committed relationships (Nelson 1982[98]), anonymous sexual encounters, general promiscuity, auto-eroticism (Saghir 1973), sado-masochism, and various paraphilias. Some even support a lessening of restrictions on sex between adults and minors (Mirkin 1999[99]) or deny the negative psychological impact of sexual child abuse. (Rind 1998; Smith 1988[100])

Some of those who consider therapy unethical also challenge established theories of child development. (Davison 1982[101]; Menvielle 1998[102]) These tend to place blame for the undeniable problems suffered by homosexually active adolescents and adults on societal oppression. All research conclusions must be evaluated in light of the biases which the researchers bring to the project. When research is infused with an acknowledged political agenda, its value is seriously diminished."

The above is poor judgement on the part of the author; one does not, in a professional document, expand the opinion of individual researchers (Barret, Nelson, Saghir, etc.) to unsupported generalizations. It gives the document an unecessary (and unsupported) polemical tone and undermines its credibility.

Now, with respect to the debate above: research is research. Nobody said that all homosexuality is the result of childhoods left wanting, and it seems fantastical to me to deny that any of it is.

Maybe, R.L. Pena, you should breathe a little easier and not assume that we won't believe you or take your testimony seriously. I, for one, would be pleased to hear and learn from you, provided you showed a mutual interest. Could you be open to the possibility that faithful Catholics do not want you to be sad or miserable?

This could be a supportive community, but you strain people's patience when you bust in with your ground-to-aircraft rocket launchers and KF7-Soviets.

There is more to Catholics, and to the Church, than a teaching which challenges your chosen lifestyle. Your yelling "bigots! conspirators!" is about as helpful as calling the SWAT team to bust a Bingo club. You have not found a hornet's nest of your historical oppressors; just some normal, rather boring Catholics.

Maybe things can cool down a bit and we can get to some civilized conversation, eh? Oh, wait, I forgot: this is the Web.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), April 03, 2004.

nice post, anon

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 03, 2004.

ZAROVE,
Since you are not Catholic, please do the Catholics in this group a favor and don't chase people away.

thanks,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 03, 2004.

I didnt chase him off. He emails me now. He woudl ahv left anyway, I kow his type.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 03, 2004.

Bill,

I understand your concern in that you want to reach R.L. with the Christian message. However, I fail to see how Zarove chased away R.L.? He refuted R.L.'s arguments, which should be expected form in any debate. R.L. made claims, so he was clearly asking for a debate, which includes the element of the opposing side refuting his claims. Besides, none of what Zarove said was contrary to Catholic teaching, from what I saw. And in fact, he was defending Catholic teaching.

Christians must proclaim the Truth in a loving manner (I don't see how Zarove did this improperly). It is the responsibility of the receiver to accept or reject the Truth. Neither Zarove nor anyone else can be blamed if someone decides to reject the Christian message. I think Zarove does our forum a favor by being here to answer objections to Christianity. He seems well-studied and able to spend extensive amounts of time providing thorough answers to questions or objections raised. He is also respectful of the Catholic faith and his role in our forum (unlike some Protestants who have come here), and does not bash our faith.

If you think that he has behaved in an offensive or inappropriate manner, I think it would be fitting to point out to him exactly where you saw this, or with what statement(s) he made. He has been a good contributor here for awhile; it's not like he just popped in today. I think he will heed your advice if you can show where the problem area(s) are. I do understand your concern, and I hope that all people can come to the knowledge of the Truth.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 03, 2004.

I think the latter part of "anon"'s post is good too. But his first part is unsupported and polemical.

The document he criticizes was long enough as it was and any more expansion would have been a bit too much. Nope. The paper is absolutely perfect in every way. Besides, thats my Daddy he's nit- pickin!

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), April 07, 2004.

I am sorry I am not english or catholic or even gay**ss** I found your site by accidente and got caught by the discussion First I thought..how can they be so judging saying that being gay is wrong as a fact and saying God excist as a fact too and asking another guy to prove them wrong on both. If your want us to believe in your God it is up to you to prove that he excists. Then I saw anons and Bills answers and I thought..well there are some normal openmiden people inhere afterall But the a woman proved me wrong again. sadly that is. I am from Denmark where we dont judge gays if they are born that way or not.... And because you think that being gay is morally wrong it isnīt the absolute truth...just like you believing in Gods excistence Sorry if my english isnīt spelled right and if I am not sientific enough. But this is my opinion Lisbeth

-- Lisbeth Nørreslet (lisbeth_N-nospam@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

Lisbeth, You will need to sort out the Catholic posters from the non-Catholic posters (for we have a number of them who post here). You also need to realize tht people come in all flavors, some are more forceful then others.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.

Dear Lisbeth,

To state the truth is not judgement. Judgement involves making a personal decision about something. Saying that the earth orbits the sun is not a judgement - it is a statement of objective truth. This doesn't mean you are required to believe that the earth orbits the sun. It just means that if you don't believe it you are objectively wrong. In the same way it is an objective and absolute truth revealed by God that homosexual acts are intrisically immoral. The fact that your nation's moral standards are lax (a problem which is increasingly apparent in my own country) doesn't change the facts. It just moves your nation farther from the truth and farther from the will of God.

As for the reality of God, proving His existence to you or anyone else is not my responsibility. It is His responsibility. He has done so for countless billions of people, and if you are not closed to the truth, He will do so for you as well.

Peace.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 28, 2004.

mY answers in {"} Brackets ------------------------------------------ I am sorry I am not english or catholic or even gay**ss** I found your site by accidente and got caught by the discussion

{No worries.}-Zarove

First I thought..how can they be so judging saying that being gay is wrong as a fact and saying God excist as a fact too and asking another guy to prove them wrong on both.

{Unrelated. even many Atheists beleive Hiomosexuality is morally wrong. Proving God's existance has nothign to do with either the dscussion of Homosexuality beign moral or inborn.}-Zarove

If your want us to believe in your God it is up to you to prove that he excists.

{No, its not. It is, however, up to us to lead the way to a better life, bu the choice to lead a better life is always your own.God des not seek worship to be praised, but because in so doinf we ourselvces become better persons.}-Zarove

Then I saw anons and Bills answers and I thought..well there are some normal openmiden people inhere afterall But the a woman proved me wrong again.

{Wrogn how? Do you define ipen minded as " Accepts Gays"? If so, then you arent relaly open minded. pen mindedness is not detemrines by rather or not you accept Gays, but how much you actually are willign to listen tot he facts. pro-Gay arguments often argue agisnt the facts, such as the heavy medical risks and psycologica issues that are known to accomany Homosexuality.

I am open minded myself, I just dont accept the lie that Homosexuality is inborn, since their is no scientific evidence fo it, nor do I accept he lie that Homosexuality is A-OK since it destorys lives.One can be open minded and object you know, just like one can be compassionate and object.}-Zarove

sadly that is. I am from Denmark where we dont judge gays if they are born that way or not....

{No one on this thread is judging Gays, but plenty Judge Christains. Their si a difference between holding to a moral standard and beign judgemental. Also, note, their is no real vidence for the claim that Gays are born gay.}-Zarove

And because you think that being gay is morally wrong it isnīt the absolute truth...

{No absolute truth exists in the modern worldview, this is folly. Actually, it is the absolute truth that Homosexuals on average live shorter lived on average. Usually 30 years less than a heterosexual. It is also a known fact that Homosexuals are more prone to depression, suicicde, neurosis, and other less desirable personality traits, even in Denmark where they are accepted.

Saying that our morals arent absolute , and indeed that moral standards arent abslute, is itself ridicukous. Ot is also Hypocritical. What makes your acceptance of Gays better than our nonaceptance? easy, your "Open minded" and we are "Closed minded." In other words, your veiws are absolute truth. Gays are to be accpeted. Period.ebd of discussion. Nothign wrogn with beign gay.

Our views are subjecticve, theirfre we must enver discuss them. Your views are objectie, that Homosexality is not morally wrong, and must be accepted.

We cannot talk about oyr veiws, but pro gays can.

Such is hypocracy.}-Zarove

just like you believing in Gods excistence

{Again, the existance of God i a seperatr issue. Also, the existance of God is also absolute truth. Let me explain. If od does not exist, then he dosnt exist fo me or you. This woudl b an objective fact, not subject to either my beleivf that he does exist or someone elses beleif that he doesn't exist.

Likewise, if God does exist then he exists for you as well as me. Just like the sun. n can deny the suns existance, but it sill still be hteir. Saing the existance of God isnt absolute truth is idiocy. IOf God exists and created the Universe, then this woudl be an OBJECTIVE fact, not a subjectie "truth" that depends nt he beleiver. Such is nonsence that makes precious little sence.}-Zarove

Sorry if my english isnīt spelled right and if I am not sientific enough. But this is my opinion Lisbeth

{Opinion is one hing,but you stated things that make little sence. You basically said hte existance of God is not an absolute turth, and that mroal standards are not absolute. However, Morals exist to promote healthy living. They are based on natural laws, and are observable. If we lead a moral lif we are happier and healthier. Likewise, the existance of God isnt subjective, true for the beeliver not ture for the unbeliver, he either is or isn't.This woudl place God's existanc ent he realm of fact, not subjectivism. God is an object, not an emotion.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 28, 2004.

This is...really depressing. I'd suggest that everybody just quit talking to one another. I'm not going to state where I stand because half of you wouldn't listen to me if I did.

Obviously you all have contrasting opinions and all of you aren't going to change your minds because of what the opposing half is yelling at you.

This isn't a debate; it's a screaming contest that really isn't going anywhere. You have your opinion; let others have theirs.

-- Flair (doll_bat@hotmail.com), February 08, 2005.

My lat psost was form April 2004, almst a year agi...

The convo is dead...

Likewise, we idnt get into a screamign match, we simpley discussed what we knew, that i the pitn of a furm after all.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.