Dismas And Salvation.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
[Brought here for further discussion]Also, consider what was actually happening to Dismas. He was evidently accused and executed for being a theif. Dismas surrendered to that reality and therefore repented and accepted his penance, even if you couldn't escape it. But, the other thief remained unrepentent and unfaithful. Dismas showed and proved his faith through his fate to the other thief. Dismas worked out his Salvation in those few moments with Christ. It is one thing to proclaim one's faith, quite another to prove it and bring others to that faith. Dismas did it.
.......
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004
The previous thread included an argument dealing with "Faith Alone". I don't believe that the man on the cross--Dismas--received his Salvation by "Sola Fide". I do believe he "worked" his Salvation, much like the rest of us are to do.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
BTW, I am not perpetuating a Catholic Doctrine. I think that most intense reader can surmise the relatively identical conclusion to the Dismas conversion, confession, repentance, penance, and Salvation..............
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Usually, the only reason a "sola fide" advocate brings up the example of the thief isn't so much because he was saved, but because he was saved w/o baptism. This type of "evidence" is a perfect example of how grossly misunderstood the purposes of immersion were for at different periods.It should be perfectly stated that this is in refution of water baptism, which to all those who understand this, is when we are united in christ's death and resurrection. We must be buried with him so that we can be raised with him. (Romans 6)
Using this unflawed purpose of immersion, we can see exactly why the thief did not need a water immersion into Jesus in order to be saved. Jesus had not yet been buried nor resurrected. How was it then, that Christ expected anyone to be baptized into him? He didn't.
Another point which "faith only" advocates stab themselves in the back with is confession. The thief confessed the name of Jesus. So was he saved before or after he did? Most "faith only" supporters also quote Romans 10:9 as a refution of immersion, again not realizing that this very scripture states that is is by confession we are saved.
Stop me if i'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like "sola fide" supporters actually believe faith alone will save, only that baptism cannot come before salvation. This is why the doctrine is entirely erroneous.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Faith (from the other thread) wrote : "If we go by the gospel account.., the only thing that the repentant thief did was repent, confess and receive...."and before that you wrote (from the same thread as above) "Repentance, confession and Baptism--all take place when we receive Christ."
I guess I am confused about how you acknowledge that we must repent, and confess in order to receive Christ, and still hold to "faith only." Or maybe i'm more confused as to why you believe these are essential but water baptism isn't. Peter was very clear in his book that is is immersion (in water) that saves.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Interesting. So, let's consider that Dismas was Baptized. No, not in the popular and acceptible mode that is obvious in Scriptures, but in that event on the cross with Christ. Was Dismas Baptized? Somehow, I think that Dismas was, but we are not seeing it.Faith has alluded to a symbolic baptism; that is to be baptized in Christ. Kevin has mentioned a burial, as in dying with Christ. The mention of water has been extremely evident. I wonder if all of these components were in effect during Dismas' hour?
This is why David accused me of being ecumenical, but I'm not. I truly believe that baptism has a universal form and purpose. We must consider the physical and spiritual meanings and purpose of Baptism.
....
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Well, first I think it is revelant to point out that the promised Holy Spirit had not yet come. If he was baptized, it was not a washing of the Holy Spirit as before mentioned.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
The thief on the cross had to be the luckiest man alive. He was nothing more than a low-life criminal, a loser. He had committed a crime. He was convicted for it, and he was crucified for it. So he had no future; he was going nowhere; or worse; he was going to hell.Just before he died, just before he plunged into the abyss of eternity, at the last possible instant he received the gift of eternal life. He died at the Place of the Skull, outside Jerusalem, on a cross right next to the cross Jesus died on.
Because he died on that cross, he was able to ask for eternal life and hear the beautiful words Jesus spoke from the cross: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Salvation is for sinners. By sinner, I mean someone who lives in rebellion of God. That rebellion includes everything you might think of as sin--like lying, stealing, adultery, and hypocrisy--and a few things you might not think of--like impatience, greed, pride, unforgiveness, and prayerlessness.
You might think it would be easy for a criminal, dying on a cross, to admit that he is a sinner living in rebellion against God. Not so.
There were two criminals who were crucified with Jesus, one on either side of him, but only one of them repented. The other criminal refused to admit that he was a sinner. The Bible says, "One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at [Jesus]: ' Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!'" There was no way he was going to admit he had done anything wrong.
It is not easy for sinners to admit that they are sinners. It can be the hardest confession a sinner ever makes. We usually try to make ourselves feel better by finding someone who is worse than we are so that we don't have to deal with our own guilty consciences.
That is what makes the confession of the penitent sinner so amazing. He said to the unrepentant sinner who was hurling insults at Jesus, "Don't you fear God, since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve." He admitted he was a sinner. He admitted that it was right for him to die for his sins. He also admitted that his sins were an offense against God, and not just an offense against humanity.
The second thing the penitent criminal did was that he confessed that Jesus is the perfect Son of God. "We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Even though he himself was a sinner, he could tell that Jesus Christ was sinless. It was obvious to him that Jesus had done nothing wrong.
Remember the first thing Jesus said while he was dying on the cross? "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing." The penitent criminal heard those words, and he must have been moved by the forgiving heart of God that was revealed in Jesus' prayer.
We must ask for the salvation that Jesus offers. One of the most remarkable things about Luke's history of the two criminals crucified with Jesus is that both of them asked for salvation. Have you ever noticed this?
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults..."Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" This man met Jesus face to face at the foot of the cross; he asked for salvation., and yet, he did not receive it.
That fact should terrify us. It is possible to meet Jesus at the foot of the cross and fail to receive salvation.
How is it possible? Both thieves were bad men, and they both asked for salvation. So why didn't they both receive salvation? How can it be that only one thief went to paradise?
For one thing, the unrepentant sinner was not sincere when he asked for salvation. He was insulting Jesus. He was asking for salvation with his lips, but he was not trusting Jesus for this salvation.
The other problem was that he was not asking for the salvation that Jesus offers. "Save yourself and us!" That is to say, "Climb down off that cross and get me out of this mess!" He was not asking for eternal life, he was trying to save his own skin. He was not trying to get salvation for his soul in the life to come; he was trying to get protection for his body in the here and now.
The pentitent thief was asking for eternal salvation. He was asking for a personal salvation. Notice how he addresses the Son of God. He calls him Jesus. Usually people addressed him as "Teacher" or "Master." But this man addressed Jesus personally.
This is the kind of salvation Jesus offers us. When you hear the words Jesus said to the penitent criminal, you might think the important word is "paradise." It is true that Jesus has prepared a place in heaven for every sinner who repents, but salvation really isn't about paradise. What Jesus offers is better than paradise. He offers intimacy with himself. "Today you will be with me," Jesus said.
The thief did not work for anything--nor did he deserve anything. He simply received Jesus as His Savior.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.
I do not conform to the "Sola Fide", "Sola Gratia", or "Sola Scritura" system(s) unique-ly. I'm still in the Catholic mode.................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Luke?"Well, first I think it is revelant to point out that the promised Holy Spirit had not yet come. If he was baptized, it was not a washing of the Holy Spirit as before mentioned."
Why on earth would Dismas need the Holy Spirit? He was with Christ the Saviour.
......
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
That's what I'm saying Rod. The baptism of the Holy Ghost is obviously not the immersion that the thief may have received. Again, we see "faith only" working against itself. If the baptism of the holy spirit is what saves us, then it is obvious that the thief was not saved (I am using the "faith only" logic).
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Very heartwarming and convicting Faith.Yet, the old covanent was still in effect, and therefore the thief was saved in the same manner that the many people were before Christ came. We are no longer saved by the terms of that law.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
You believe that Old Testament people were saved by the Law?Not so--the Law never saved anyone.
The Old Testament people were also saved because they believed God.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 31, 2004.
Faith, you are looking at it with wishful sincerety. If your view is correct, then why are we taught to live a sanctified life? Why is the fruits of our faith important? Why not live in sin the majority of our lives and then when our time is up, just plead for sincere faith? It doesn't make sense and it is quite a gamble. In your view, everyone doesn't deserve Salvation, yet everyone is pretty much saved. All it takes is that final sincere moment of faith in Christ. No. Dismas and Christ know, but we have only a hunch; yours sounds rather easy, but leaky. Mine is the harder path, yet it is one that makes sense, at least to me..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Oops,sincerity, sorry, sincerely.......
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
Luke, the thief was not under the "Old Covenant"."For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives" - Hebrews 9:16-17
"So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs." - John 19:32-33
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.
Not necessarily the one who makes a covenant has to die.Hebrews talks about everlasting covenants.
God made a covenant with Noah. Noah lived after that covenant many more years. So did Abraham. So did Jacob. So did Moses.
God made an everlasting covenant with those that follow Jesus, not with Jesus. Jesus had died on the cross. See Acts. The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@srla.org), March 31, 2004.
Faith,I agree. No one was saved by the law. That would mean at least one person was righteous somewhere, but there were none. Was ever Israelite before Jesus condemned therefore? No of course not. You just misunderstood what I mean by "under the old law." How were these people saved? They had to put faith in the coming Messiah.
When asked what the greatest commandment was, Jesus replied "love the Lord your God with all of your heart.. and the second is like it , love your neighbor as yourself." What is interesting is that neither of these commands appear word for word in the 10 commandments nor the remainder of the Law of Moses. We can see know, how the law is not meant to make us righteous but to bring us to the Christ.
David, unless Jesus was speaking AFTER he had died, your verses actually support my position. Jesus had yet not died, therefore his new covenant could not be in force when he spoke to Dismas aka the thief.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.
From the very beging--it has always been about faith. About believing God.The Old Testament shows us that the Law could save no one. Just look at the history. The Israelites failed time and time again to obey God. They simply could not do it.
What the Law did was reveal our need for a Savior.
Those who were found righteous were found righteous because they believed God. What did they believe? His promise...
Old Testament people looked forward to the cross--we look back.
Everything points to Jesus. We must believe that he is going to save us.
Believe and you will see eternal life.
The thief did what? He believed.....Abraham? He believed....Noah? He believed....
We can't save ourselves. That's been made quite clear.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.
Abraham was tested and so was Noah. The theif evidently passed his test, too. Faith and obedience in God....
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.co), April 01, 2004.
make that "thief", i wouldn't want to rob us of correct spellings.....
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
I agree Faith. However, did those who looked forward to the Messiah stop following the law knowing it couldn't save? By the same token, we also look back at the cross, knowing that we cannot "save ourselves." And yet, not faith, but obedience (either to the law during that time, or the law of grace) is what seperates the immoral fromm the pure in heart; the wicked from the righteous. Obedience is something we must to in order to be saved. So in one regard, this is how we save ourselves. Peter said this. He didn't mean earn your salvation. Only do what is necessary to be forgiven by God. Like a person drowning in the sea. If a rescue boat throws him a life preserver, the drowning person has to take grab it and hang on until he makes he is safely on board. Then who get's the credit of saving his life? Not himself obviously. The rescue team is credited. If the man had not taken hold however, he would also not have been saved. So his life depended not only on being saved but on doing what he must to save himself.This is faith that does. All the way back to Abraham, God was pleased with those who had a faith that does. So back to our thief, he would not have been saved had he not taken action and spoken to our Lord, even though he obviously knew who Jesus was.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
But Luke...the faith is what brings us to the point of obedience.We are saved, not because we obey., but because we believe.
People in the Old Testament did not obey. If they were saved, it was by faith. Faith just results in obedience. Obedience is evidence of faith.
You analogy on the boat can be seen in the cross. It is Jesus who saves us--but we must receive Hin., in the same way that the drowning man must receive the life jacket. But that's it. The work of God is to believe in and receive Jesus Christ.
Then they asked Him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: To believe in the one he has sent." John 6:28-29
Today, we are saved because we believe in what Christ has done. It is not about what we do. Our works are as filthy rags.., they cannot save us.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.
Ah! good work Luke. And, good work by those in the boat who are throwing the ropes of Salvation for the poor drowning soul. What good is that faith without works?.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
The poor man can believe all he want that he will be rescued if he grabs the life preserver. Yet, unless he actually does grab it, he won't be. I think I understand what you are saying Faith, that the act we do is to believe. I agree with this. But I cannot believe that faith will result in obedience necessarily. If it did, there would be no reason for James 2.Again, it comes down to the faith. I believe that faith is a gift of God offered to everyone who hears his Word. Does God plant "false faith" in some and "true faith" in others? No, it is all one faith. The individual then chooses to obey or disobey. Simple enough. I would reference the Parable of the Sower found in Mark 4. The same seed is sown in each person. There isn't a "fake seed" that God gives. (Satan has his own seed) The result of each is not caused by God's seed, but by the weeds or sun or birds. God gives us his seed. Do we let it grow or choke it out?
How does this relate to our Dismas? Simple. He obviously had faith in who Jesus was. I wonder if Kevin would be so good as to post the verse about him being baptized. Was this by John or Jesus? Anyway, yes Faith, his faith led him to confess Jesus, but he wasn't saved until he opened his mouth. If I'm understanding you correctly, the thief was saved before he spoke, simply because he had faith. Suppose he had died before he had a chance to speak. Would he be saved or not? You say he had faith, and I agree. But does this still save him w/o the confession? I am not agreeing.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
Luke,There is no verse(s) that specifically state that the thief was baptized. The thief must have known about Jesus because textual evidence suggests that he was baptized. (Matthew 3:5-6). Besides, it does not matter that the thief was not baptized because Jesus while He was on earth had the power to forgive sins. (Matthew 9:6).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 01, 2004.
Well, then Jesus did the baptism just by cleansing Dismas' sins right then and there. Voila! Instant baptism.................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
Be careful how you reply, Kevin. This may cause more doctrinal contraversy. If Jesus Christ could do this for Dismas, why can't it also happen to the rest of us?...........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.
It does happen for the rest of us...it is the baptism that Jesus brings--which is the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit.., the moment that we repent, confess and receive Him. It is all quite simultaneous.....
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 01, 2004.
Rod,You wrote, "Be careful how you reply, Kevin. This may cause more doctrinal contraversy. If Jesus Christ could do this for Dismas, why can't it also happen to the rest of us?"
Here is the reason that Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power ON EARTH to forgive sins" (Matthew 9:6). Jesus is NO LONGER on the earth and He gave the plan of salvation to His disciples in the great commission when He said to the disciples in Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..." and in Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and MAKE DISCIPLES of all the nations, BAPTIZING THEM..." One is NOT a disciple of Christ UNTIL they have been baptized FOR the remission of their sins.
Faith,
You wrote, "It does happen for the rest of us...it is the baptism that Jesus brings--which is the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit.., the moment that we repent, confess and receive Him. It is all quite simultaneous....."
Where is your PROOF Faith that "It is all quite simultaneous....."??? Scripture please!!!
The Scriptures do not teach that we are saved by "faith only." The one and ONLY time that such a phrase is used, we find it DENYING such a doctrine (James 2:24).
Faith, you are DENYING the Scriptures with your own doctrine of "faith only" salvation.
God's way is the only acceptable way. He revealed it for our understanding, "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is." Ephesians 5:17. A spiritual rebirth REQUIRES physical water (H2O). The Ethiopian eunuch obviously understood this. "And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" (Acts 8:36). Philip had "preached unto him Jesus" (Acts 8:35), and the man knew he needed to find water in which to be baptized. Preaching Jesus necessarily INCLUDES preaching water baptism!
Having established that literal water is necessary for spiritual rebirth, we now must understand the role of the Holy Spirit in completing this "birthing" process. How does the Holy Spirit interact with water in such a way as to produce a new creature in Christ Jesus? Let us consider a physical birth for a moment. When the seed of woman (egg cell) accepts the seed of man (sperm), an embryo forms which can result in the birth of a baby about nine months later.
The Bible used the term "begets" or "begotten" to describe this fertilization process. In the new birth (spiritual birth) the word of truth revealed by the Holy Spirit is accepted by the heart of man as he hears and believes it (Romans 10:17; Matthew 13:23).
The Holy Spirit revealed all truth (John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:7-12; 2 Pet. 1:21), and all scripture is inspired (2 Tim. 3:16). When the word of truth (the gospel) is believed, a spiritual begettal takes place (James 1:18). The begettal is NOT the birth; it only STARTS the process.
A believer is NOT YET born into the family of God at the point of belief ONLY. The scriptures say that the devils believe (James 2:19), and Cornelius was a devout man (Acts 10:1-2), but such are STILL UNSAVED. Jesus said, "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).
In Romans 10:8-10 Paul said that the acceptance of "the word of faith" prompts us to believe UNTO righteousness, and this in turn causes one to confess with the mouth UNTO salvation. It is the arising from the waters of baptism, however, which brings forth the new creature (Romans 6:3-7).
The ONLY WAY we can get into Christ is to be baptized into Him (Galatians 3:27).
Baptism IS FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), and it is the CULMINATION of the process that saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Baptism in water, with the understanding taught by the words of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Son of God, grants us remission of sins and places us among the saved as newborn babes that have completed the new birth and are part of the family of God.
It is significant that in every detailed case of conversion in the book of Acts, the conversion was NOT complete UNTIL baptism occurred. As Ananias told Saul, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' " (Acts 22:16). If seeing the Lord, confessing the Lord, and praying with fasting could have saved Saul, he would have NO sins to wash away. Just as the Ethiopian saw the NEED for water baptism, Saul was INSTRUCTED that the same should be done to him as something he "MUST DO" (Acts 9:6). It is ONLY after this rebirth in the waters of baptism that these men could "go on his way rejoicing" (Acts 8:39).
The phrase of being "born again" occurs in only two New Testament passages.
Jesus said we are born again "of water and of the Spirit" (John 3:5), and Peter says that the word of God is the incorruptible seed that allows us to be "born again" (1 Peter 1:23). Water alone will not save, and baptism is not like taking a bath to remove the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). There is nothing special or magical about the water, but the union of our immersion in water and our understanding (taught by the Spirit) that Jesus is the Son of God allows the operation of God to transform us into a new creature free from sin (Colossians 2:11-13; Romans 6:17-18; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), April 02, 2004.