In Britain, one in five pregnancies ends in abortion

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004

Answers

bump

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), March 31, 2004.

That is why I believe in contraception , Bill,for those not good enough to have kids.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 31, 2004.

contraception is not the answer elp, if you were truly a prophet you would know that.

contraception is based on the stupid idea of "lesser of two evils." It treats a symptom (abortion) of a true societal ill (laizer faire attitude towards illicit serial monogomous sex). Therein lies the true problem.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 01, 2004.

Don't frget Pail, COntraception leads o the other great lie.Safe Sex. even the best COntraception iant 100% effective. ( Condomsn are relaly only 60%effective. The reason pregnency doesnt occure 40% of the itme Condomns are used is because pregnency woudln have occures if it where unprotected sex, the woman wasnt Ovulating.)

The ill sometimes fauls.

Peopoel still think that they work and they CANT Get pregnent, or make a girl pregnent, if hey use these meathods.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 01, 2004.

Can't save everybody, Paul H.

Sometimes in the real world, choose the lesser of two evils.

Even the Pope does that.

Some Jesus sayings are hard. When his disciples heard Jesus speaking about divorce, they answered, Then what is the reason for marrying in the first place- Mathew

The Christian Yahwist

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Abortions are not just an "unmarried" female problem. Married women can and do get abortions, with or without their husband knowing about it, and at times coerced by the husband into getting one. And that does not take into account cases where the husband hits or pushes the wife, causing what might be mistaken for a miscarriage, or the wife deliberately falling down or doing something else to cause essentially an abortion....

I think there should be more effort directed into being able to transfer an embryo/baby into another mother (or if necessary for a short period of time, into a machine or freezer) safely for both baby and biological mother. As long as women still are led to believe that abortions are safer than carrying a baby to term, they will continue to get them....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), April 01, 2004.

Elpidio,

Some Jesus sayings are hard.

LOL! You should read John 6 again, that's exactly what some of Jesus' followers said right before they quit BEING Jesus' followers when they couldn't accept they had to eat His flesh! I guess you are saying you are in the same boat, you aren't willing to follow on the Hard Road of Christianity.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 01, 2004.

Elpidio,

Contraceptive societies have more abortions. The problem is not unwanted pregnancies--it is the whole mentality that we must control nature at every cost.

You should read the first chapter of Evangelium Vitae before you spout off about Contraceptives being the lesser of two evils. Understand before you speak.

"It is frequently asserted that contraception, if made safe and available to all, is the most effective remedy against abortion. The Catholic Church is then accused of actually promoting abortion, because she obstinately continues to teach the moral unlawfulness of contraception. When looked at carefully, this objection is clearly unfounded. It may be that many people use contraception with a view to excluding the subsequent temptation of abortion. But the negative values inherent in the "contraceptive mentality"-which is very different from responsible parenthood, lived in respect for the full truth of the conjugal act-are such that they in fact strengthen this temptation when an unwanted life is conceived. Indeed, the pro- abortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church's teaching on contraception is rejected. Certainly, from the moral point of view contraception and abortion arespecifically different evils: the former contradicts the full truth of the sexual act as the proper expression of conjugal love, while the latter destroys the life of a human being; the former is opposed to the virtue of chastity in marriage, the latter is opposed to the virtue of justice and directly violates the divine commandment "You shall not kill".

But despite their differences of nature and moral gravity, contraception and abortion are often closely connected, as fruits of the same tree. It is true that in many cases contraception and even abortion are practised under the pressure of real- life difficulties, which nonetheless can never exonerate from striving to observe God's law fully. Still, in very many other instances such practices are rooted in a hedonistic mentality unwilling to accept responsibility in matters of sexuality, and they imply a self-centered concept of freedom, which regards procreation as an obstacle to personal fulfilment. The life which could result from a sexual encounter thus becomes an enemy to be avoided at all costs, and abortion becomes the only possible decisive response to failed contraception.

The close connection which exists, in mentality, between the practice of contraception and that of abortion is becoming increasingly obvious. It is being demonstrated in an alarming way by the development of chemical products, intrauterine devices and vaccines which, distributed with the same ease as contraceptives, really act as abortifacients in the very early stages of the development of the life of the new human being."

-- anon (ymous@God.bless), April 01, 2004.

Anon, this site from the Vatican concentrates mostly on homicide and Abortion.

Only twice, in the case of Jeremiah and Jesus do we have a case from God. God sends prophets and deliverers into this world.

When he does that, he lets the people know. He told Abraham and Sarah about Isaac. He protected Joseph and Moses from death. He sent Samuel to a barren woman. He chose David. He foretold Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and Jesus.

Now, look at the parents of those men: they were righteous as their children. Abraham was righteous. So were many more.

God doesn't send them to people who do evil before his eyes. Why is the Catholic Church infatuated with Joseph and Mary, his wife: they were righteous people. Even though some of Jesus human ancestors were not righteous, he was born of righteous ones.

If all were believers, Anon, then, we would expect people to not use contraceptives, practice abortion,...

I can live with contraceptives, but not with abortion, infanticide, suicide, euthanasia,...

Contraceptives are ways to avoid pregnancy. Some include chemicals and devices. Others nothing. People only discuss the first type.

Some I don't like, like some pills and devices inserted in the private parts.Others are even accepted by the church like rythmn (counting days when a woman ovulates). There is also coitus interruptus. This was the case of Judah's son who married Tamar. Any sort of trying to avoid pregnancy is a contraceptive, ven if this does not include chemicals, devices,...

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonzalez@srla.org), April 01, 2004.

Can't save everybody, Paul H.

the fundamental nature of true christian faith demands the belief that all mankind can be saved through the sacrifice that Christ made. You should know and understand these things, elp. just because some people screw up is no reason to advocate one form of sin in place of another. what you SHOULD advocate (as all TRUE prophets have advocated) is the path of NO sin. That, in this case, is the advocacy of waiting until marraige to engage in sex, and then teaching people to value children once more instead of dreading having them.

Sometimes in the real world, choose the lesser of two evils.

never. The concept of "lesser of two evils" is a false dichotomy that is contrary to the principles of logic, philosophy, theology, and ethics.

Why logic? because there are few cases in morality where there are ONLY two possible options to take. This is not one of those cases. Why philosophy? because fundamentally there has to be a path which a person can take which will make them a good person. Why theology? because the nature of the relation of God and man is that there is always a path where man can choose the right, otherwise God would be damning us Himself by offering us only evils as choices. Why ethics? because the call for moral accountability requires that the person have free will. If the only options in a situation are evils, then there can be no free will in denying evil, and therefore no moral accountability, then the whole system falls to pieces.

Even the Pope does that.

really? name one instance where the pope has officially advocated the "lesser of two evils" approach to morality. Hint: you wont find it.

Some Jesus sayings are hard. When his disciples heard Jesus speaking about divorce, they answered, Then what is the reason for marrying in the first place- Mathew

typical parsing of bible verses to try to make them look like you want. Jesus clearly tells them that to divorce is wrong, regardless of whatever moses said. Then He tells them, and this is the important part, that a prophet should know: (paraphrased)Though it is hard, you MUST draw the line and realize that sin is sin. How in the world does drawing the line and refusing sin even paramount to your statement that sin is acceptable in preventing other sin? It isnt.

The Christian Yahwist

you have yet to say alot that will prove this statement to me. As when somebody tells me "i am catholic" i do not believe them until they can demonstrate that fact.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 01, 2004.

Frank, things are hard for those who don't undersatnd when things are literal and when things are as they are.

Jesus accepted back people who were living together or divorced. Remember the Samaritan woman, from John?

Do you remember the woman caught in adultery, the tax collectors,...

He even did miacles for foreigners.

Saint Paul took in Gays and lesbians into the church. Have you read the first chapter of Romans?

For Jesus, these hard sayings were meant for the believers, not the unbelievers.

Because if you take John's eat my flesh and drink my blood literally as the Church does, then, everytime you sin you hould cut something off your body. After all Jesus said that it is better for you Frank to try to enter heaven without an eye, an arm, a leg,... than as a sinner.

I guarrantee you Frank, that you still haven't cut any of your members.

After all, Jesus said that is is not Good to give what is holy to dogs (gays, lesbians) or give your pearls(advice) to swine (Foreigners).

Frank, you know by now, that I have not practiced abortion, divorced, lived together, murdered, practiced any type of contraception, suicide, euthanasia,... from my posts.

I entered this forum in 1999. It wasn't until 2001 that I began posting. Yo are the only regular left from those days. Eugene and John Gecik came later. So has Paul M. Lately Bill.

I still miss Chris Butler (I just hope he understands that in life one has to accept criticism. He couldn't handle David@excite.) He had feelings that accordin to him allowed him to know the truth about some matters like Jesus true age. Not counting his stigmata.

Jean Bouchard had a different perspective. Somewhere between Catholic and Jewish.

Emerald, Regina, Jake, ...brought the other older Catholic perspectives from pre 1962 Vatican II.

Eugene and John Gecik were good debaters. One quit. The other still tries from time to time. More than 20% of their words were directed at me. Somehow Gecik sees himself as the New Athanasius: the neo- conservative defender of orthodoxy. Athanasius would be proud of him.

Then the one who died, Fred Bishop. Well versed on taking on any one.

JackieA, good questions. Sunshine, still shines like a comet, once in a....

Paul M seems to have run out of saliva. I liked his composure, well thought discourses. He represents the other Catholicism, the one which includes Charismatics.

Paul H likes someone opposite himselg to argue with.

Bill is like Paul M in some respects. Yet, Bill tries to cover too many topics. He will run out of steam soon.He doesn't give people to continue posting more. We used to have threads with over 50 postings. Many are now orphans, except for the bump.

You Frank, are unpredictable. Just like Ed. One day you can be so tolerant. The next day you start banning even people you care for. You banned Eugene once. One day your open for dialogue, the next you start spitting fire. This has affected your health. You remember the time when your health got so bad over a year ago?

I am more open. I can take on any one. This opens me more for criticism. But I can take it.

I believe that God continues to reveal more things everyday. No one has a monopoly on the truth. Not even me.

The Christian Yahwist The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Paul H, was Jesus able to save his generation?

what about Judas Iscariot, the priests, scribes,...? Didn't he say that in the judgment day it would fare better for Sodom and Omorrah than for Capernaum, Betsaida, Chorazoin...? many would say, we heard preach,.... but Jesus will say, stay away fro me evildoers?

Well, some history Paul H. Pope Pius XI signed concordats with evil dictators, including Mussolini, to get The Vatican. even today, the Church has good relations with United States presidents, rather than the Soviet Union then, and Russia now. The Vatican has not publicly 100% denounced China, even though its churches are persecuted there. The Vatican still maintains relations with Israel, even when Catholic Palestinians are suffering.

It is called politics, Paul H. It is the real World.

I don't know if you are a United States citizen, but in my case , like many others, I have to vote for the lesser of two evils: Bush and Kerry. Neither one represents me 100%. One , Bush, is a Protestant, against abortion, yet he is for assassinations, ... He is for tax cuts, but had huge deficits which jeopardize the livelyhood of those in social security, medicare,.... He is also for more consolidation of companies, which will in turn create monopolies, which then continue to rise prices. See the price of gasoline. It has doubled under him in California. The lis t goes on.

On the other hand, Kerry is a Catholic, yet not against abortion personally but votes for abortion causes. He is more into protecting older people. Making sure their social security checks will be there. Medical health would be there. He is less for tax cuts, and more into balancing the budget.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Frank , Anon and Pul H. The

Church position on birth control

Even Jesus would object to it.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Church's position on having kids.

Taken from this site:Family site

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 01, 2004.

Elpidio,

You have a good memory. Remember though, Jesus isn't saying their sin is ACCEPTABLE, but He obviously acknowledged that sin exists in the world. If we were all perfect, we wouldn't NEED Jesus' sacrifice. That is the whole reason FOR his sacrifice, that we ALL are sinners!

That being said, we have the obligation to try and improve ourselves. Jesus would NOT tell an adulterer to continue in their adultry, or a homosexual to continue practicing homosexuality, they are to throw off their sinful ways and follow the Lord. If you doubt this, please show me somewhere in the Bible where Jesus says "go forth and continue a life of sin", and I'll believe you wholeheartedly, but I don't think you'll find it!

On this:

ou Frank, are unpredictable. Just like Ed. One day you can be so tolerant. The next day you start banning even people you care for. You banned Eugene once. One day your open for dialogue, the next you start spitting fire. This has affected your health. You remember the time when your health got so bad over a year ago?

Actually, I'm generally very tolerant, at least as far as giving second chances goes. Banning Eugene was hard, but it would be *unfair* to only ban people you disagree with, if the behavior is the same, the punishment should be the same whether you like someone or not. I still can't believe people disagree with me on that, but, that may well mean I'm wrong I suppose :-( Anyway, that's in the past. The one exception to my being tolerant really got to be the Lefebvrite schismatics' continued attacks on the Catholic church. They displayed an unrelenting venom that we haven't had to endure from any other group, and I did finally get tired of it. My health issue is unrelated to this forum (I hope!), my heart just gave out on me, but I will say there's a lot less stress not having to hear everyone's gripes here too. This really is for my enjoyment and education, not a second career.

I wish you the best, Elpidio. I hope you can come back to church teachings someday, but trust to the Lord to be merciful to you, just as I trust (and hope for) the Lord to be merciful to me, on that final day.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 02, 2004.

Thakns, Frank. It took me a while to answer. The system was down at my school.

May Jesus bring sunshine into your life during this season.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 03, 2004.