Jesus falling

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I have included a bible study and a hymn for Jesus not falling on the way to the cross. Do most Catholics know this is not in the Bible? I was born and raised Catholic and was saved By Jesus a while back.

JESUS NEVER FELL DOWN GOING UP TO THE CROSS TO DIE FOR OUR SINS!

My wife & I studied the Bible on the last hours Christ was on the earth the other night I have been struck on how short the “Way of Cross” or to the cross is as told in its pages. Lets take a look at what God says in His Word the Bible. If you have one handy get it out and study along.

Matthew is the first account: Chapter 26:36- 46 Jesus in the Garden 26: 47-56 His arrest 26:57-68 before Ciaphas & Sanhedrin 26: 69-75 Peter denies him 27:1-2 taken to Pilate 27:3-10 Judas and his remorse 27:11-14 Pilate 27:15-26 Barabas in verse 26 Jesus is scourged 27:27-32 Jesus is stripped and a scarlet robe is put on Him —28 crown of thorns and a reed– 29 spit on –30 mocked –31 Simon of Cyrene is made to carry cross - 32 27:33-56 crucified 27: 57-61 buried 27: 62-66 the seal is set on tomb 28 the resurrection from the dead

You will notice that in 6 verses He is stripped and crucifixion starts on Golgotha. God reveals that much to the world of people in His Word.

Gospel of Mark Chapter 14:32-42 Jesus in the Garden 14:43-52 Jesus is arrested 14:53-65 Jesus before the High priest 14:66-72 Peter’s denial of Christ Chapter 15: 1-5 Jesus before the chief priests and Pilate 15:6-15 Pilate and Barabas 15:16-23 in the praetorium v 16 Crown of thorns and robe of purple v 17 Called King of the Jews v18 Jesus is smote and spit upon v 19 Jesus mocked v 20

Simon of Cyrene made to bear the cross v21 Arrives at Golgotha v 22 Give wine mixed with myrrh v 23 15: 24- 47 Jesus is crucified Chapter 16: Jesus rose again

Gospel of Luke Chapter 22: 39-53 Jesus in the garden and his arrest 22:54-62 Peter’s denial : 63-65 Jesus beaten 22: 66-71 Jesus before the Sanhedrin Chapter 23:1-5 Jesus Before Pilate 23: 6-12 Jesus taken to Herod 23:13-25 Jesus before Pilate 23:26-32 Simon made to bear the Cross-v 26 Women bewailing him v 27-31 Led to death with 2 malefactors v32 23: 33-56 crucified and buried Chapter 24:1 and following Jesus rose again

Gospel of John Chapter 18:1-11 Jesus in Garden and his arrest 18:12-14 before the high priest 18: 15-18 Peter’s denial 18: 19-27 before high priest 18: 28-38 Before Pilate 18: 39-40 Barabas released Chapter 19: 1-3 Jesus Scourged v 1 19: 4-15 Pilate v 16 led away v 17 bearing the cross v 18 crucified v 19 Jesus, king of the Jews 19:20-23 On the cross and below 19:25-27 behold you son , behold you mother 19:28 I thirst 19:29-30 it is finished

Jesus never fell in the scripture, and the account of the climb to Calvary does not include all the scenes found in so many movies. So much for the Stations of the Cross found in some churches and thought by some as if they were in the Word.

They are: 1. Jesus is condemned to death 2. He is made to carry his cross 3. Falls the first time- (at no time does Jesus fall in the scripture)

4. He meets his mother- (not there in the scripture) 5. Simon of Cyrene is made to bear the cross 6. Veronica wipes Jesus' face and the image is made-( not there in the scripture , a fable) 7. He falls a second time-( not there in the scripture) 8. The women of Jerusalem weep over Jesus 9. He falls a third time- ( not there in the scripture) 10. He is stripped of his garments 11. He is nailed to the cross 12. He died on the cross 13. He is taken down from the cross 14. He is placed in the sepulchre.

FOR 53 YEARS I THOUGHT JESUS FALLING DOWN WAS IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE I WAS TAUGHT IT IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS A CHILD. I KNOW BETTER NOW SINCE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO.

Not all these events found in the Stations of the Cross are in the Word of God. And if you believe in THE BIBLE’S power and exclusiveness, which is what Jesus, calls for, then be saved by putting your faith in Him alone and proclaim the truth of the Bible. He is the Living word! Jesus did die once on the cross for every man who ever lived and for every sin ever committed Jesus was buried in the tomb. And He rose again the third day.

All people need to repent of sin and believe in Christ today.

The following is a song i wrote:

JESUS NEVER FELL

Jesus never fell, on his way to Calvary, He bore the sin as only God could do. He died upon the cross, to set me free, I was in the fire, but he saved my soul.

Praise God for the Bible that stands the test. Praise Him for the only Word of God. I was in the fire, but Jesus never fell, He saved me for eternity.

Adam was in the garden and tempted sore He fell beneath the load of sin In Adam’s fall, we sinned all But Jesus never fell on the way to Calvary

The Bible never said that Jesus fell on the way God never said that about his Son, Jesus never fell under the weight of our sin, But he carried them all to Calvary.

Now to Him that is able to keep you from falling And present you faultless before God. Your garments are spotted with flesh and sin you are in the fire, so call on Him today; He’ll save you for eternity

Praise God for the Bible that stands the test. Praise Him for the only Word of God. I was in the fire, but Jesus never fell, He saved me for eternity.

Landmark Baptist Church 4000 Creighton Road Richmond Va 23223 804-643-7711 Sunday School --9:45 am, Sun. Morning Ser.----11:00 am, Sun Sun. Evening-----6:00 pm Wednesday Prayer—7:30pm

or

Marc Oliver, Baptist 6705 Paterson Ave Richmond, VA 23226 804-282 5784

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 13, 2004

Answers

Marcus said: And if you believe in THE BIBLE’S power and exclusiveness, which is what Jesus, calls for

Hi Marcus,

Could you please tell me where in Scripture Jesus says that the Bible is the exclusive power?

Thanks and God bless!

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 13, 2004.


It would be absurd to suggest that any man who had not eaten or slept in over 24 hours, who had been savagely beaten and tortured, who had lost more than half of his blood, and who was then given a burden weighing a couple of hundred pounds and forced to carry it up a steep, rocky hill while being roughly shoved along by soldiers did not fall MANY times on the journey. The three falls which are commemorated by His Church are merely representative of the INNUMERABLE times He must surely have stumbled and fallen on His way to Calvary. Why do you think Simon was enlisted to carry the cross? Because Jesus was simply TIRED? It was because Jesus was nearly dead after struggling under His heavy burden in His already weakened condition until He could no longer stand under the weight. The soldiers knew if He fell again under the weight of the cross it might very well kill Him, and He was sentenced to die on the cross, not on the way to Calvary. Scripture is a valuable guide, but it can't totally replace common sense, which is another God-given source of factual knowledge. The Bible doesn't say he sweated while carrying the cross either, or that his feet were cut and bleeding. Are you suggesting that these obvious aspects of His journey didn't occur because the Bible doesn't specifically say so? Use your head!

The "exclusiveness" of the Bible is a modern tradition of your manmade church. Jesus never mentioned such a thing. No Apostle believed it or stated it. No Christian on earth before the 16th century ever heard of such an idea - because it never existed before then. All Christians before that time were true Bible Christians - Catholics - and therefore knew that the Bible identifies the Church, and the Church alone, as the pillar and foundation of truth. The fruit of "Bible alone" religion is obvious to anyone who looks - 450 years of continuous division, fragmentation, doctrinal chaos and false teaching - the exact opposite of what Jesus preached concerning the Church - that it would be ONE, united, undivided, teaching ONE truth for all time - just like the Holy Catholic Church.

Do you have any idea how pitifully vapid "My wife & I studied the Bible on the last hours Christ was on the earth the other night" sounds compared to the statement "the greatest theological minds who ever lived have studied the Bible intensively over the entire 1,600 years since the Catholic Church first compiled the Bible"? Can you seriously expect that any knowledgeable person would be impressed with your personal interpretations of ancient Catholic writings when your interpretations contradict the cumulative knowledge, wisdom and inspiration of God's Holy Church since the time of Christ?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 13, 2004.


I agree with you , Paul.

Even though Marcus is right in saying that Jesus is not mentioned as falling down, the mere fact as mentioned by Mark that someone named Simon was compelled to help him carry the cross shows Jesus must have fallen more than one time.

Only John seems to show that Jesus carried the cross by himself and never fell down.

The Christian Yahwist. The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), April 13, 2004.


Hi Marc, The bible also never uses the word "Trinity" to describe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Investigate how it came about. Since you are somewhat familiar with Catholicism, I suggest you read the writings of the Fathers of the Church. I suggest you also read Jimmy Akin's and Scott Hahn's conversion stories.

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 13, 2004.

Luke 4:32:" And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power." Jesus, who is the Living Word of God, the Living Bible according to John 1:1-2. is God's Word and they are full of power.

They and He according to Psalm 12:6-7 are pure and like no other:

": The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

There is only one Word of God!If it is about the Lord Jesus and it is Beyond the Scripture then it is Heresy! Be careful friends 1 timothy 4:16 says: "6: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. " the doctrine of the living God is found only in the pages of Scripture, No where else.

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 14, 2004.



marcus: since you entered this Catholic forum and you want answers I reccomend that you go to the main page of the forum and you scroll down the topics and you'll find them categorized by subject. Plese enter the following:

Why did the Catholic Church change God's Word?

The answers you'are looking for are there.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 14, 2004.


As I read the above posts, something came to mind. How many times do we fall under the weight of our cares (our cross becomes to heavy to carry) and how many times have "Simons" or angels come into our paths to help us carry our crosses, to lighten our burdens.

Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. Yet, we don't die under the weight of our burdens because Jesus has given us hope - through his life, his death and resurrection, he has given us the rewards of eternal life.

When Jesus carried his cross, he was human just like we are and no human could have endured what he did without falling - just like we fall again and again...but He picks us up again and again and brings us back to the right path.

Thank you and praise you Jesus for dying on the cross for us.

It is only common sense that Jesus would have fallen...it doesn't matter how many times. Let's not get so 'technical' about what is in the Bible - the message of Jesus dying to save us from sin and give us the gift of life eternal is what's important.

Amen

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 14, 2004.


Does it say in the Bible that Jesus' held his aching back, does it say his nails were worn down and torn, does it say the sweat and blood ran off his forehead into his eyes,stinging them, does it say his mouth was so dry his tongue stuck to the roof of his mouth, does it say his legs strained and buckled, does it say his garment stuck to his scourged back?? Many, many things happened in those days that were not recorded detail by minute detail. Doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I have no doubt Jesus was known to blow his nose, go to potty, hiccup, sneeze and snore, but if they are not written in the Bible, does it mean they didn't happen? I don't think so.

-- Dee (Dee@none.sorry), April 14, 2004.


Marcus,

You quoted several passages which mention the importance of the Word of God, and of course Catholics agree fully with those passages or the Catholic Church would not have put them into the Bible. However, what you overlook is the fact that those passages were written long before the Bible was compiled; and what is contained in those passages was believed and taught by the Church even before it was written. The Word of God which is referred to in those passages is the oral teaching of Christ and of the Apostles - the teaching of the Church. This was the Word of God as soon as Christ spoke it, because He is God. It did not become the Word of God when it was written down, or 300 years later when it was compiled into the Bible. It is the Word of God because God spoke it to His Church, and it would have remained the Word of God whether any of it had ever been written down or not - and whether it had ever been compiled into a book or not. That's why the Church, not the Bible, is the God-given pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). That's why Christ told the Church "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". That's why Christ told the Church "he who hears you hears Me; he who rejects you rejects Me". That's why Christ told the Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth". Of course, once you reject the authority and infallibility of the Church, you have to identify something as your authority, and that's how your human tradition of sola scriptura came about. Having rejected God's Church, the pillar and foundation of truth, your founders chose a book of writings compiled under the authority of the same Church whose authority they had rejected, and tried to make that book their authority, apart from the authority of the Church which produced it. The result is plain to see - no true authority means no objective standard of truth, which guarantees the very doctrinal breakdown which we see in your tradition.

You say: "If it is about the Lord Jesus and it is Beyond the Scripture then it is Heresy!" As the many examples given above clearly illustrate, that is an incorrect definition of heresy. That which directly CONTRADICTS the true meaning of the Word of God is heresy (ideas like sola scriptura and sola fide for example) - not simply knowledge about God that isn't specifically spelled out in the Scriptures. Speaking of heresy, is it possible for directly conflicting doctrinal beliefs to both be true? If not, how do you account for the thousands of Protestant denominations, conflicting with one another on every doctrinal issue, yet each claiming to be teaching the truth??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 14, 2004.


The strange thing is that the fact of His Falling on the way to Clvary has become, what appears to be a Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church along with Veronica's Veil. My dad said "No one ever told me that it was in the Bible", so as a child and as an Adult, I assumed it.I am Reminded of Jesus' Word in Mark 7:"13": Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. I just feel it is necessary for the world to know that the Bible never records Jesus falling , and all my Catholic friends around the world need to Know too. The Catholic Church and entertainment industry movies teach that he did fall for some reason. His aching back has not become doctrine Him Blowing His Nose has not become doctrine Neither has his nose, going to potty, hiccup, sneeze and snore become doctrine. Jesus never fell!

-- marcus radin oliver (marc@thomashamiltonassociates.com), April 14, 2004.


Thanks for your concern, but Catholics are well aware of what is and is not in the Bible, and were well aware of it for more than 1,200 years before your tradition appeared on the earth.

I am Reminded of Jesus' Word in Mark 7:13: "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." It is historical fact that the idea of sola scriptura is a new tradition spawned in the 16th century, which no Christian on earth ever heard of before then. How do you reconcile that fact with the words of Jesus in this passage? I am further reminded of the warning given to us in 2 Timothy 4 - "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables". Sola scriptura is such a fable, and the destructive fruit of following it is evident everywhere you turn.

The strange thing is that the fact of His Falling on the way to Clvary has become, what appears to be a Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church along with Veronica's Veil. My dad said "No one ever told me that it was in the Bible", so as a child and as an Adult, I assumed it.I am Reminded of Jesus' Word in Mark 7:"13": Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. I just feel it is necessary for the world to know that the Bible never records Jesus falling , and all my Catholic friends around the world need to Know too. The Catholic Church and entertainment industry movies teach that he did fall for some reason. His aching back has not become doctrine Him Blowing His Nose has not become doctrine Neither has his nose, going to potty, hiccup, sneeze and snore become doctrine. Jesus never fell!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 14, 2004.


paul the only way to go to heaven is to be born again and that is by:

1 Peter, chapter 1

"23": Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

as Peter said in the Word. love in Him

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 14, 2004.


Mary Lou Common sense would say that the walls of Jericho would not fall down or people don't rise from the dead. I remember Proverbs 3: "5: Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6: In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7: Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8: It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9: Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. "

The power of the Bible! love you

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 14, 2004.


Apparently the Bible has power then, to mislead? You gloat over your Bible wisdom; and the only thing you show is pride. God considers the wisdom of men folly. You're showing us living proof, Marcus.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 14, 2004.

Marcus,

I do believe that you are focusing on something that is so unimportant. The important thing is that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried and rose again and he did all of this for us sinners.

It saddens me so much when I think of what Jesus went through for us. However, it gladdens my heart to know that Jesus lives and that one day we will be with him in Heaven. (I hope!)

Why do you worry so about how many times Jesus fell? One time is too many as far as I am concerned. Why can't you just focus on the 'message' of the Paschal Mystery?

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 14, 2004.



"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

A: Amen to that! And if you are honest you will have to admit that the teachings of the various Protestant denominations CANNOT represent the genuine Word of God since they all contradict one another, and the Word of God cannot contradict itself. The Word of God can exist only in unity, and such unity of doctrinal truth can be found only in the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, the only Church which history reveals in every century since the Apostles, the Holy Catholic Church. The facts speak for themselves.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 14, 2004.


If we read the life of Anne Catherine Emmerich the origin of the fourteen Stations of the Cross is explained. We know this is not inspired scripture. Nevertheless, even without that authority, credence can be given to the visions of this stigmatized, pious Catholic nun. She saw the mother of Our Saviour herself meditating the fourteen stations, Via Crucis; many years after the events.

Mary lived in Ephesus close by John the Evangelist; and on the grounds of her home she arranged fourteen stone markers. Large stones at intervals, one by one representing Christ's horrific trip toward Calvary. Three were falls along the way, in pain and humiliation under the weight of His cross. Mary witnessed them in person, and made them each a sorrowful station. Anne Catherine Emmerich saw how Mary commemorated them ever afterward in the solitude of her elderly life. When Catholics go the way of the Via Crucis they follow after Jesus' holy mother. Mary is just as good as a Bible narrative to her children.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 15, 2004.


The "Way of the Cross" is a part of the "tradition" of our church. The same tradition that gave us the Bible.

Meditation on the Stations of the Way of the Cross have served to bring many closer to God. It has even helped me, so I'll continue to pray the prayers and trust that God is listening.

-- Leon (pookieboy@hotmail.com), April 15, 2004.


Emily I thought i would answer the Bible being exclusive: Psalm 12:6-7 "6: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." that sounds exclusive to me, even the word exclusive is not used.

Luke 4: 32 says that the words of our Lord, the Bible are powerful. " 32: And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. " hope this helps in Him marc

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 15, 2004.


MaryLu Thanks for encouraging me to focus on the Gospel. I am Going to heaven because He has forgiven me of all my sin and given me eternal life according to Saint John first letter , Chapter 5 Verse 13. That is the reason he wrote to us in 1 John 5:13

My prayer is that all the readers will ask the risen LORD Jesus to him to forgive all their sins and give them eternal life. He will you know.

in Him marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 15, 2004.


Leon The reason for the " Jesus never fell" in the first place was that over the years of storing God's Word in my heart so that I might not sin Against Him, I have come to hold to the Scripture and reject any "tradition" that is not supported by the Bible. Only the Bible is considered the very Word of God that is able to make us wise unto salvation according to Paul's letter to Timothy. We need to be careful about " tradition" , especially when it becomes a fable becoming more know and respected than the Word of God itself. I don't follow Jesus' mother, but Him. He lives with in me and will take me to heaven one day.

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 15, 2004.

Dear Marc,

Now, there are many other things that Jesus did. If they were all written down one by one, I suppose that the whole world could not hold the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

Have you ever come across these verses written in your Protestant Bible or is it that you just simply ignore them? I suppose you don't celebrate Christmas or Easter for if you do, you are contradicting yourself for the Bible never mention the date of Christmas and Easter.

Are you are riding a donkey to work? Well the word 'car' is not mention in the Bible too! Please use your head to think and think it well

God Bless

Comming Home

-- Christian (christian@pd.jaring.my), April 15, 2004.


"Martha, Martha, you worry about so many things, but Mary knows what is important." I remember the story about the two sisters Martha and Mary - Martha doing all the cooking in the kitchen and getting upset because her sister Mary was not helping her. Mary knew what was important..she spent her time with Jesus.

Sorry, I don't remember where that story is in the Bible or the verse...but I do remember what is important - that we focus on Jesus Himself and not concern ourselves with unimportant matters.

In fact, I called out of work on Holy Thursday night because I did not want to miss the Holy Thursday service. I got someone to fill in for me at work. My supervisor was not too thrilled about my calling out (I never do), but I told her that I was putting God first. Even though she is Catholic, I don't think she appreciated it too much, but I know that God did not mind.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 15, 2004.


So Marcus,

Christians didn't have the Word of God until the end of the 4th century, when the current canon of scripture was compiled by the Catholic Church? How did the Christian Church grow and prosper for 350+ years without the Word of God? How did they manage to survive without Bibles? Maybe they just did what the Bible now tells us to do - listened to the Word of God as preached by the Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 15, 2004.


Paul With you lastest comment, I am reminded of a passage in ats where Christ is with the Believers on the Emmaus raod. In Luke 24 He Started with Moses and the Prophets and expounded them all those things concerning Himself. Believers have always had the Word. Adam and Eve had one command from God. Able, the first blood bought one, knew the kind of sacrifice God wanted. Cain his brither rejected the blood. The faith I have been given started with Able way back in Genesis. The book of Hebrews chapter 11 tells us that. Many of the Prophets of God were tole to write down what God had told them. And in the Book of the Revelation we are warned not to add or take away from the Word of God. It is a finished revelation. God is not adding to His revelation today. Genisis 1 to Revelation 22:21 is what my God, the LORD Jesus Christ wants me to know about Himself and His way.

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 16, 2004.

Dear Coming Home Easter is spoken of in the Bible in Acts 12:4. Yes , I know that verse. But My God, The LORD Jesus only has revelation in the Bible, Genesis 1 to Revelation 22:21. God has revealed Himself there. Moses and the Prophets according to Luke 16:29 and then the New testament as written by the Apostles under the inspriation of the Holy Ghost. Look at Hebrews 1:1.

love you marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 16, 2004.


dear Ian ( that was removed) I thought of some verses again: 1 Timothy 2, verses 1-6 [1] I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [6] Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

We need to love all men & women, forgive all and pray for all.God wants ALL saved and going to heaven when they die. He does not want any in Hell. We need to ASK. PRAYER is ASKING GOD for Something.

love marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 16, 2004.


Marcus,
You're misunderstanding a lot of the Word of God. Firstly, it never states in the Bible that all other truth must be discarded except what was written. This appears to be the approach you take to scripture; it's either exclusively true, or if other truth can be accepted, you are rejecting God's Word. But that's patently false. Our Lord promised his followers (the Church) He was to send the Holy Spirit after ascending to His Father; the Spirit of truth, to dwell with the Church forever (John 14:16). Note he did not say: ''You will have the written Word to dwell with you.'' The bible was given by God to his Church.

Plainly, the Word can be misconstued by eager Christians. I'm sorry to say you are too eager to discern by your private judgment, without Christ's holy Church. This causes you to ''reject all traditions'' as if the Holy Spirit were NOT dwelling within the Church to keep her from all error.

Yet; see what Christ said: ''Many things yet I have to say to you but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth has come, He will teach you all the truth,'' (John 16, :12-13).

THIS is precisely the way the Church accumulated many holy traditions you now reject, Marcus. They are TRUE; and they weren't found by the wayside. All Sacred Tradition is given by the Holy Spirit to the Catholic Church. Included is all we know now concerning Mary the Most Blessed Virgin.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 16, 2004.


Eugene Yes, when it comes to God's truth to mankind I reject all but the Word. Psalm 119:103-107 & again in 128

"103": How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

"104": Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

"105": Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

"106": I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.

"107": I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word. "

notice the terms, thy word, judgements, precepts. The Holy Spirit dwells in each person who has call on Him for salvation. Yes, the Holy Spirit will and does teach them all truth. Which is found in God's Word the Bible alone. love and prayers marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 16, 2004.


The problem Marcus is that the various passages you quoted were written hundreds of years before Christ was born, so the writer certainly was not referring to the teachings of Christ, much less to the Christian Bible, which was compiled 400 years after Christ was born. Christ told us what "His Word" consists of when He told the leaders of His Church "He who hears you hears Me; He who rejects you rejects Me". Christ equated the teaching of His Church with His Word. Any other identification of God's Word is unbiblical. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that our beliefs must come from the Bible. How could there be? True Christian beliefs preceded the Bible by 350 years. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us our own interpretations of Scripture are true. It is blatantly obvious that they are not, given the pervasive conflicts and contradictions among the many Protestant theologies. What the Bible does tell us is that whatsoever His Church decrees to be binding truth here on earth is also bound in heaven. That's why His Church, not a book produced by His Church, is described in His Word as the pillar and foundation of truth. And that is why truth cannot be found any way except through the teaching of His Church - which of course includes the Holy Scriptures, properly interpreted and faithfully taught by His Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 16, 2004.

You're up against it, Marcus. ''Eugene Yes, when it comes to God's truth to mankind I reject all but the Word.''-- Is a self- contradiction. Why do you doubt Jesus Christ's promises to His holy Church? Isn't John 16 :12-13 truth-- His Holy Word? He said the Spirit was being sent to the Church. Not to those who oppose His Church. Paul M's correction is worth repeating. Here it is; reflect on it more: Christ told us what "His Word" consists of. He told the leaders of His Church "He who hears you hears Me; He who rejects you rejects me". Christ equated the teaching of His Church with His Word. Any other identification of God's Word is unbiblical. Paul is correct; learn from him.

Think of how little faith you have in Christ's Word. He sent the Holy Spirit to His Church, but for you the teachings of the Spirit are not equal to your personal renditions of scripture. WHY?

You don't believe there ever was God the Holy Spirit here from heaven to teach us. Otherwise, John 16 :12-13 would challenge your belief in yourself. You have believed the teachings of men.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 16, 2004.


Tread drift:

If simon also carried the cross, why did Jesus fall beneth its weight later?

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), April 17, 2004.


Dear Sean:
In just a short while one of us can ask Jesus why, when we have entered into His infinite glory. There had to be a reason. Maybe He fell from sheer exhaustion. (Don't think they gave Jesus a hearty breakfast before starting off that morning.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 17, 2004.

Perhaps Simon and Jesus carried it together.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 17, 2004.

Maybe they even fell together. Ah, well . . .

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 17, 2004.

First, Amen to Paul M. and other defenders of the faith! You guys are truly champions.

ok, Marcus, let's be clear here. You said you reject everything but the Word. Why then, do you consider the word "Word" to mean only the written word? The word, as John's Gospel begins, is Jesus Christ, and the written word is only one facet of Christ. So this 16th century exclusion is already made you fall off the reasoning wagon.

Second, be careful about what you mean by tradition and how it applies here. Go to the Sacred Scriptures and see: 2 Thess 2:14-16 says "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught by US, either BY WORD OF MOUTH or by letter"

There it is my good friend! Two things in that passage destroy the very foundation of your belief system. First of all, St. Paul shot you down by showing that Oral Tradition is key to Christianity- it it was all written, then Evangelizing, teaching, and other key elements of the faith would be distinguished. It is clear from Scripture and Church History that the Word was transmitted both orally and through letters. Second, Paul says "taught by us", and not "taught by the Word" or "taught by the Bible".

You never answered Paul M.'s question, and I know you didn't because you couldn't. Here it is one more time and this time DO NOT EVADE it. If salvation and Christianity as a whole is to be revealed only through the written word of God, then what kept Christianity going through 300+ years before the Canon was made in 393 and 397 at the Roman Catholic Church Councils of Carthage and Hippo? Plus, the Deutorcanonical (the Septuagint, learn about it Marcus and its origin) was also canonized. When Christians didn't have a Bible for hundreds of years, what kept them one??? Not the Bible, but the CHURCH. The Church came before the Bible, and the canonized Bible came from the Church. The Church Fathers, ESPECIALLY those who heard the Apostles, clear everything up for us all. Simply put, if your twisted beliefs were truly Scriptural, then they would be historical too. God would not allow immediate post-Apostolic twistings to occur for 1517 years, then suddenly decide to reveal "oh, now here is the truth". Absurd Ignorance! And what an honor have you to be a part of it, eh?

Answer the question above Marcus, or leave this forum.

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 17, 2004.


The word of God started with “ let there be light and then came to Adam and Eve who disobeyed, then to Able, Enoch, to Noah and others who obeyed his commands. Those who obey God’s Word are saved and are in Heaven today. That is the truth, The believers have always had the Word from the beginning. The Old and New Testaments existed in eternity past and became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, The Word of God. That Word made flesh- God died on the cross as the perfect offering for sin. Before the Councils of hippoThe believers had the Old Testament, gospels and letters of Paul, peter etc. The early church fathers quoted them many times as the Word of God. The idea that there was no Bible for 350 years is not true and I have never heard such teaching. The Jews had the word of god for years, Written down in part by Moses. God’s men have always spoken and preached God’s Word.

I shared Jesus Never fell saying that it is not in the Bible and have found out it is believed as tradition by the catholic Church, The local bishop emeritus Walter Sullivan wrote me a letter stating the fact after sending him the same “ Jesus Never fell”

If men want to believe a FABLE, so be it. I will stand on the Bible. And will stand before my Savior and God in Heaven. I won’t be going to hell. And with this I will leave the discussion group. Thanks for the insights and the open discussion.

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 18, 2004.


Marcus,

Before you go, I want you to take a look at a great book; Eusebius' History of the Church (Which was written in c. 300-330 AD). When you read this, you will understand fully what I was talking about there being no Bible. When I say that, I don't mean that the Scriptures weren't written and preserved; quite the contrary. The Catholic Church preserved and copied these manuscripts over and over through the centuries leading up to the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. The point I want hammered is that until these councils THERE WAS NO CANONICAL and COMPLETE Bible as we know it today; the 27 NT books and the 73 OT books. When you read Eusebius, you will see the "undisputed" books, such as the 4 gospels, the acts, and the letters of Paul. BUT, you will see that he lists the rest of the NT letters as "disputed"; that is, Christians were debating on the canonicity of these particular letters. The hot book was Revelation; it was in firey debate past 385 AD, which is one reason why the councils were necessary. The Scriptures were written; but they were not compiled and placed into one assorted infallible Canon until the Catholic Church councils in the late 4th century did so.

"I won’t be going to hell". You cannot play God on this part. This is the main arrogant folly of Protestants; they assume they know whose going to heaven and hell. Only God knows the true condition of your souls and those around you. We have an assurance that IF we follow Christ and "perservere" in His Truth, then we shall be saved. But you MUST factor in that sin, grievous sin, can take salvation away. "Neither fornicators....shall enter the kingdom of heaven" is a perfect example. Today, there are many Christians that are Baptized and "accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior", but some of these people will fall into sin and lose salvation. That is why Paul exhorts us to perservere, because perserverence is necessary for salvation. If we were saved once and for all, there would be no need for perserverence.

Thanks for joining the discussion.

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 18, 2004.


More thread/topic drift: Is simon a saint? Did he convert? Is anything else known about him? I suspect that the answers are either not known or no, no, and no. Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), April 19, 2004.

Dear Sean,

Well if you follow Marcus' train of reasoning, (because it is not explicitly written in the Bible) then no Simon did not convert. No he didn't, because it didn't say it.

BUT, if you are Catholic, you realize that Sacred Tradition is another important facet of Christianity, as well as the Magisterial teaching authority. And, with more freedom than explicit Biblical explanation gives(through our great saints' revelations on Jesus' life, Mary's, etc...) we come to see the whole picture more and more. I think Mel Gibson certainly did an amazing job with "The Passion", since it showed things that people didn't think about (i.e., Malchus' conversion, Judas' torture, Mary's presence throughout, etc....). So certainly, Simon could have been converted. Just as the movie showed, even if Simon was forced to carry the cross, being next to our suffering Lord can change even the hardest of hearts.

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 19, 2004.


Andrew I decided to come back When you said " I don't play God on saying I am going to heaven" I am just believing what the blessed Apostle John Wrote in First John 5: "11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. " Andrew, I have the Son in me by faith, thus I have life, thus I have erternal life in me that can never be taken away. Doesn't everyone reading these messages believe what John wrote? Get the SON today! Please, every one get eternal life today!It is in Christ Jesus according to the Blessed Apotle John. Let's believe his word first, before "sacred" tradition

love you all marcus oliver

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 20, 2004.


Marcus wrote: "... I am reminded of a passage in ats where Christ is with the Believers on the Emmaus raod. In Luke 24 He Started with Moses and the Prophets and expounded them all those things concerning Himself."

Marcus, I find it interesting that you brought up this story from Luke's gospel. Take the time to read the entire story. Start at Luke 24:13 and read all the way through the end of verse 35. Notice the disciples' encounter with the *resurrected* Jesus. Notice in verse 27, when Jesus interpreted for the disciples scripture that referred to Him in all of scripture, how they *still* don't recognize him!

Then notice what happens in verses 30-31. Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. And with that, they recognized him! This is re-echoed in verse 35: They explain how He was made known to them in the breaking of the bread!

Isn't it interesting that the disciples didn't recognize Him even when He Himself interpreted all of scripture for them? Their hearts were burning, yes (a very good sign), but they didn't KNOW him (the same word used as in Genesis when Adam "knew" Eve) until He gave Himself to them in the Eucharist!

I'm just surprised that you would choose this particular scripture passage to try to argue that the bible is all you need. If you take the time to read the story in context, you'll find that even when Jesus Himself explained the scriptures to the disciples they STILL didn't know Him. Please learn more about the truth that the Catholic Church teaches in the name and authority of Christ. And don't pass up the chance to KNOW Him in the breaking of the bread!

You could hear Jesus explaining scripture to you through the Church He founded (instead of trying to figure it out for yourself). You could receive Jesus (body, blood, soul, and divinity) in the Eucharist - just like those disciples on the road to Emmaus. Then your heart could be burning within you *and* you could know Him in the breaking of the bread.

I'm praying for you...

-- Greg Adas (gadas@nc.rr.com), April 20, 2004.


Greg This is fun, what a joy to get a chance to Share the word of God with others. Thanks for the invite, but no thank you. I am complete in when the day, May 1, 1990,I recieved him as Savior. Look at verses 6 thru 9 Colossians, chapter 2 "1: For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2: That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3: In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4: And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5: For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6: As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8: Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. 10: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15: And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18: Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19: And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22: Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23: Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh"

That day, May 1 1990 when I recieved Him as Savior, I became complete in Him. I was dead in sin , but now am alive in HIM forever more. Being born and raised Catholic I partook of the Eucharist for years. But Now I have Eternal Life. The communion service is a rememberance only.

I love you guys marcus oliver

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 20, 2004.


Marcus,

You were woefully misled if you think of communion as a remembrance only! You missed the central aspect of your faith, so it's no wonder you fell away, you never learned the truth when here. That's no excuse for building your own religion though, which is what all of the Protestant sects have done. Christ promised He would be with His church, not every church that man could invent *based* on His church. If you really love Christ, try and do what He asked you to, not what YOU want to do for Him!

Oh, and btw, when you say you are now saved, do you think there's any way you can LOSE that salvation, or not?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 20, 2004.


Marcus,

You're so far afield I'm not sure where to begin.

I was trying to address a specific point of yours: that all you need is the bible. That simply isn't so - as the bible itself makes clear. In trying to argue scripture *alone*, you quoted from Luke 24. What I tried to show is how the story of the disciples on the road to Emmaus shows something quite different than "sola scriptura" - rather, it shows that even when Jesus Himself explained the scriptures to His disciples they didn't recognize Him. But when He broke the bread, they *knew* Him. That's no more "symbolic" than when Adam *knew* Eve. It's real. It's real powerful.

I'll suggest again that you read the entire story of the road to Emmaus (Lk 24: 13-35). I don't know what it was that turned you so anti-Catholic, but I'm really not trying to "corner" you... I'm just hoping that you won't let your experiences blind you from hearing the truth.

Maybe it's hopeless to expect that you'll listen to the Church (just because Christ said so) when you won't even listen to the bible (which you proclaim to follow above all else). I'll still pray for you (as I hope you will for me)...

-- Greg Adas (gadas@nc.rr.com), April 20, 2004.


Frank My savior , Jesus Christ promises never to leave me nor forsake me in Luke 22: 31-32 He prayed that Peter's faith fail not. God always answers Jesus' prayer. and in Jude 24 he says: 20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21: Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22: And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24: Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25: To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. "

I cannot be lost forever. I cannot Go to Hell because my sins are gone. Thanks for asking How about you frank, are you sure?

love you in tha Lord marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 20, 2004.


Dear Greg I am praying for you. Prayer is asking God for something. I am reading the passage right now. I thank you for your encouragment to read his word and to Know Him.

you are right that I have desired to know truth from error. I hate every false way. I am against any lie. God's word is perfect and true, and Jesus is the living Word. He has come in the flesh. In My fleshnad in this flesh I will see God. the same way Job said so many years ago.

love in Him praying for you too marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 20, 2004.


I thought lets get back to the original statement. In the Bible account: Jesus Never Fell on the way to Calvary. BUT we all did fall in sin. When we come into this World we are all fallen sinner on our way to a Devils Hell is what the Bible says, and we all need a savior right? Jesus Christ is the savior and if we will call on Him repenting of our sin he will save us Right?

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 20, 2004.

Poor Marcus is presently in sin and can't see it. This is presumption. He is self-assured in a way that Paul the apostle was not. Paul expected to be saved partaking of Christ's own suffering in order to ''become like Him in death.'' He wrote: ''not that I have attained this, or already have been made perfect, but I press on, hoping --Brethren, I do not consider that I have laid hold on it already. (Phil 3, :12.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 20, 2004.

Hey Marcus,

I don't exactly rembember the exact passage, but I do know that Paul said "those who perservere will attain eternal life". If this is true, which it is, then the converse is true: Those who do NOT perservere, do NOT have eternal life. But, if you say your sins are gone and that everything has been done for justification, then for you there is nothing you have to do anymore! No perserverance, because your sins are gone! And, do you remember when Jesus said "Amen, Amen, I say to you, many who say "Lord, Lord", shall not enter". If they said Lord Lord, they knew the Lord as a Christian. This also assumes they were baptized and 'accepted' Jesus as Our Savior...which means eternal life assured right? But Jesus said no! Sin has its effects, especially on those who are blind to the truth.

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 20, 2004.


Andrew I thought that way for years. I "believed" in Christ and tried to be good enought to get to heaven. Yet the Bible says I am a sinner by nature and that Sin condemns to Hell. THE Devil " believes"in Christ! He knows who he is! Then I read that I was condemned already. That the wrath of a Holy God was on me personally. I continued to read the Bible, Jesus said that " It is finished" from the cross. Salvation is COMPLETE! That salvation was and is ALL of Him. He died for all sin and all people ONCE on the Cross. My job was to trust that the payment of my sin debt was paid 2000 years ago. the christian life now is just praising God for what He has done and doing what He says as a child, a child of God . I am no longer a child of SATAN. the verse you mention about Jesus rejecting people. He actually says " I never knew you" not I knew you once and now I don't. He says depart you who said LORD, LORD, I never knew you.

in Him Marcus Oliver

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 22, 2004.


We know what non-Catholics believe, Marcus. Save all the versifying, please.

No one ever said you were a ''Child of Satan'' --Come off this supercilious preening for the audience. Neither are Catholics children of Satan. We all believe fervently that the Son of God saves us. By constantly talking down to others you only prove you are smug & sanctimonious. God sees you just as He sees us. Sinners all. A Catholic doesn't presume to tell God, ''It's finished.'' We are sinners as long as under the influences of this world. Tempted to presumption as you are, and even worse, as some of us are. But Jesus promised us we would be with Him for eternity if we repent of our sins. If we persevered to the end.

In Luke 13 :25, Our lord warns you: ''You will begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying Lord, open for us.'' He will answer, ''I do not know where you're from.'' You'll say, ''We ate & drank in Your presence.'' Christ will answer, ''Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity.'' All sinful men.

Sin can always damn you unless you learn repentence to the final hour. If we don't repent and confess, the words of Christ are fixed and final: ''I do not know you.''

Marcus, you have no power to absolve yourself; certainly none seen in scripture. That surely doesn't mean you're still a child of Satan. But it means the same to you and to me. We remain capable of sinning as long as we're in the body. Even saints have fallen; Paul said to his converts (they were already believers and saints-- ) ''Be careful, lest thinking you stand, you fall again.''

But Jesus has clearly promised us that upon repentence of our faults, He will give us complete forgiveness. We worship Jesus in the Catholic Church as the Ocean of Divine Mercy. So, we know He will save us if we persevere to the end. When He said the words, ''It is finished,'' He was saying this: ''I have done the work of salvation for all men.'' He didn't mean you could not choose to fall into sin and remain in sin. Our complete repentence and co-operation is always required. He has given us grace to persevere. The grace is here for us in his holy Church. All grace, all forgiveness, all His help. Not outside in the world. Not in your private interpretation of the Bible. Learning an erroneous message from the scripture will never be enough to save anybody. I'm sorry, but that is not true faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 22, 2004.


Marcus,

I cannot be lost forever. I cannot Go to Hell because my sins are gone. Thanks for asking How about you frank, are you sure?

You say you CANNOT be lost. So you can go out and murder, rape, steal, etc. to your heart's content and still be saved? How do you figure that? What about not giving up until the race is over? All of us are sinners Marcus, if we are saved it is through the grace of God. Do you really believe that no matter WHAT you do you'll be saved?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 22, 2004.


"He actually says " I never knew you" not I knew you once and now I don't."

So, because Jesus definitely knew Judas and Judas definitely knew Jesus, Judas is therefore definitely saved, even though he committed one of the greatest sins in the history of the world AFTER having served Christ for three years, and followed up that sin with suicide? I'm afraid that doesn't fit too well with the Word of God ... "... the one who endures to the end, he will be saved". (Matthew 24:13)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 22, 2004.


Eugene, I have tried to comment on the comments that are made on the discussion board. Please read John 8:13-44, emphasis on 44, For words about the devil and my life before Christ. I have shared what has happened to me. I am sorry to have talked down to any one. I, too know what I believed then and what I know now.

Marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 22, 2004.


You will really find Christ in the Catholic faith, Marcus. What you feel was an arrival into His grace previously is only the beginning. It is Jesus who has brought you here to discover the faith. Here you start truly loving Jesus as your thirsty soul has desired to love Him. There's nothing to be afraid of, no reason to rebel. He founded one Church forever. This is the Church of the holy apostles. God is your Father, isn't He? This place is for you-- the place where His glory dwells.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 22, 2004.

Frank The Risen Christ has changed my want to. We walk even as Christ walked. I do sin, but Jesus is in me, in my flesh and heart. He does not leave a person just because they sin. Salvation and eternal life is forever. I am HIS son forever. Fellowship with Him is conditional. That why a Christian, One who Knows Christ, must confess his sins. those who Jesus Justifies, He will sanctify and glorify. Romans tells us that. God's righteousness was given to me by faith in him.

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 23, 2004.

Paul

Judas was a lost man. to know Christ in the flesh and for Christ to know you in the flesh does not make you a saved person. You must Know Christ as Lord and Savior. You are a teacher of Religion and don't know this? Thomas, the apostle knew Christ and was known by Him. But Thomas was not saved until he said, " My Lord and my God" Peter was not saved until he said, " Thou art the Christ the son of the living God." Paul there is no evidence that Judas was a Christian! Quite the contrary.. A christian walks a Jesus Walks.Jesus inside a person 100% of the time. Dwelling inside the person. Paul said Christ in you the hope of Glory. The true risen Christ entered me May 1, 1990 when i came to Know him as LORD and GOD and Savior. How about you? When did you profess Christ? Is Jesus Christ come in the flesh?

love marc

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 23, 2004.


"When did you profess Christ?"

At my Baptism. At my Confirmation. At my Marriage. At my Ordination. And especially every time I receive Him physically in the most sacred Eucharist. These are actual, not just verbal professions of Christ. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom, but he who does the will of God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 23, 2004.


Marcus,

That's a nice sentiment, but you really didn't answer my question. Are you saying that you believe you will still be saved REGARDLESS of how sinful your actions are? I know you don't *want to*, but if you DID start murdering, stealing, etc. at will, you'd still be saved?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 23, 2004.


Frank

"Are you saying that you believe you will still be saved REGARDLESS of how sinful your actions are?" YES, salvation happens once for all. a person who fears God hates such evil things you speak of and departs from such wickedness you speak of. Proverbs 8:13. I don't keep myself saved, Jesus does.

My God would chasten me and even take me or any believer out of this world in death, if i did such things, as Paul told the Corinthians who were doing things that God hated. All sin is equal in the Bible! All Sin is against God. God deals with different sin in different ways. ie With Sodom he sent fire down from heaven! The sword never departed from David's house

King David was a saved man even in his adultery and murder. He confessed in Psalm 51 but he was saved long before that. Lot was a saved man in as he sinned by being in Sodom. My Savior and my faith in my savior will fail not!

marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 23, 2004.


Paul "These are actual, not just verbal professions of Christ. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom, but he who does the will of God."

The disciples asked Christ what is the will of God? And Jesus said " Believe on Him who sent me"

Salvation takes place in the heart, not in outward signs: Look at Roamns 10: "9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Oh Paul, salvation is in the living Jesus Christ, not Church membership, in the waters of Baptism, or oils of confirmation, prayers and promises of marriage or the bread of the Host or the wine of the cup. Jesus is ALIVE in the heart and flesh all who are saved from all sin! Salvation is in His blood shed 2000 years ago.

marcus

-- marcus radin oliver (olivers@juno.com), April 23, 2004.


Marcus:
Your interpretations of the passages you call on to support you is absolutely self-serving. A bad interpretation.

Salvation takes place in the heart, not in outward signs: Reply,-- Salvation doesn't even take place; it is given us by Christ. It's your Soul that is ultimately saved. We don't need poetic license to give ourselves to Christ. There's a Look at Romans 10: "9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Reply: Paul was writing to Catholic believers, his own converts. It is precisely because they believed the complete & true Gospel Paul assured them of the salvation they received. You have learned a different gospel from the one he taught the Romans. The Romans of his epistle became the See of Rome, where our Pope is now. Not the Baptist Church, Marcus. Not the Bible Belt. 10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Reply: There is no salvation in believing a corrupted gospel. Not with heart nor with confession. ''But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel to you other than that which we have preached to you , let him be anathema!'' (Gal 1:8).

You have not ''believed unto righteousness,'' because you learned from false teachers, the Baptist persuasion. Baptists like your ministers did not have a place in Paul's Church, and Paul didn't write epistles for Bible Christians of today. His writing was directed to the Church. (In the quote you selected, that was the Catholic Church which had been established recently in Rome.) Paul is a Catholic saint, apostle and martyr. Believing on Jesus Christ means becoming a member of the Catholic Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 23, 2004.


Hey Marcus,

Check out this thread: Once Saved, Always Saved?

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 25, 2004.


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