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Can we lose Salvation??
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004
No we cannot. Christ died once and for all.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
David, Once again, you do err not knowing the truth. Here are some things a Child of God can do: Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13; Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17; Err from the truth - James 5:19-20; A Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11; Fall into condemnation - James 5:12; Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23; Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1; Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12; Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27; Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14.
So, your statement we cannot lose salvation is NOT true!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.
Yes.But if one has to question whether one will lose his/her salvation,perhaps one did not have it to begin with. That being said,can such individual be found again ? -- Bob Mellencamp (desertfox1@angelfire.com), August 19, 2003.
If we could lose our salvation, then Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
If Christ's dying in our place for our sins and rising again was not sufficient to keep us saved, then He has foolishly wasted His time. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
Bob wrote, "Yes.But if one has to question whether one will lose his/her salvation,perhaps one did not have it to begin with. That being said,can such individual be found again ?" Really? Go back and re-read the story of Simon the Sorcerer in the book of Acts chapter 8. He was baptized, and was in danger of losing his salvation if he did not repent of his wickedness.
David wrote, "If we could lose our salvation, then Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again."
No David once again you do err not knowing the truth. Go back and re- read John 15:1-6, We must bear fruit or be cast off. Disciples (Christians) are described as branches IN CHRIST (v2,5) who have been cleansed by His word (v3). But if they don't bear fruit and abide in Christ (v2,4-6), they will be taken away (v2), cast into the fire and burned (v6).
David wrote, "If Christ's dying in our place for our sins and rising again was not sufficient to keep us saved, then He has foolishly wasted His time."
Go back and re-read Romans 8:13. If one does NOT put to death the deeds of the body by the spirit, they will DIE. Yes, this was written TO Christians. We are warned not to live according to the deeds of the flesh but be led by the Spirit. If we live according to the flesh, we will DIE (v13). This cannot be physical death since we all die physically regardless of how we live. This death is the opposite of the life we receive if we follow the Spirit.
To be heirs of Christ, we must be led of the Spirit (v14) and suffer with Christ (v17). It is conditional and depends on our life.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.
OK but get this: Once you are truly saved that's that, yes, you can fall and God knows you will. You are a work in progress, Jesus accepts us just the way we are, but loves us too much to leave us the way he found us. No one is going to become as perfect as God, but from the time you are saved you should do your best to put Him first.
-- Stephanie (smk31329@aol.com), August 19, 2003.
Stephanie, You wrote, "OK but get this: Once you are truly saved that's that, yes, you can fall and God knows you will."
Yes, we all sin however, it is possible for one to repent of that sin and remain a child of God. It IS possible for one to LOSE their salvation that is why Paul said in 1 Cor. 9:26-27, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." The apostle Paul certainly thought he could LOSE his salvation.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.
Kevin, Yes, I did say you can fail (or fall). I read this: 1Cr 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 1Cr 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
It means: Paul encouraged the Corinthians to put all they had into living the Christian life. He said he blackened his eyes and beat and bruised his body to keep it "under," that is so the Spirit might rule.
-- Stephanie (stephaniekinslow@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
Also, God does give you a many chances it takes to get it right.
-- Stephanie (stephaniekinslow@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
Stephanie, What does it mean if you are disqualified from a race?
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.
If as a Christian I can fall and "lose my salvation," is it possible to regain it? If so, how? If God "takes away" my salvation, doesn't that make Him an "Indian giver"? How could I ever know for sure that I was saved or lost?
-- k.v. (Moderator@here.com), August 19, 2003.
k.v. No, God is NOT an indian giver, we do have the blood of Christ to cleanse us if, as an erring child of God, we CONFESS our sins, REPENT of those sins and PRAY for FORGIVENESS. (1 John 1:7-9, Acts 8:18-24).
If a person sins after they are saved and does NOT repent of that sin, yes, they WILL be LOST.
Things Children of God Can Do:
1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13 2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17 3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20 4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11 5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12 6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23 7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1 8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12 9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27 10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14
The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away: Acts 20:28; 1 Tim. 4:1
Christians are to restore the fallen: Gal. 6:1; Jas. 5:19-20.
So, to claim that one can be saved and NEVER lost is not true according to the Word of God.
Those who have complied with the plan of salvation as taught in God's Word (Rom. 10:17; Jn. 3:16; Acts 2:38, 17:30-31; Rom. 10:10; Mk. 16:16) can, at any time, READ what they did to be saved, and BE ASSURED that they have done what it takes in order to be a child of God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 19, 2003.
Kevin, I posted these quotes for you. They are short and very near the time of Christ. I thought it would bless you to see that the very discciples of the disciples agree with your view of salvation. "And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For 'cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.' " Ignatius of Antioch,To the Ephesians,10(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:53-54
"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time. " Didache,16(A.D. 140),in ANF,VII:382
"And as many of them, he added, as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish...Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower. But if any one relapse into strife, he will be east out of the tower, and will lose his life." Hermas,The Shephard,3:8:7(A.D. 155),in ANF,II:41-42
"[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition." Justin Martyr,fragment in Irenaeus' Against Heresies,5:26:1(A.D. 156),in ANF,I:555
"Now, in the beginning the spirit was a constant companion of the soul, but the spirit forsook it because it was not willing to follow. Yet, retaining as it were a spark of its power, though unable by reason of the separation to discern the perfect, while seeking for God it fashioned to itself in its wandering many gods, following the sophistries of the demons. But the Spirit of God is not with all, but, taking up its abode with those who live justly, and intimately combining with the soul, by prophecies it announced hidden things to other souls." Tatian the Syrian,To the Greeks,13(A.D. 175),in ANF,II:71
"Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, 'For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.' " Irenaeus,Against Heresies,4:27:2(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:499
"But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? is not this gift taken away from many?" Tertullian,On Repentance,6(A.D. 204),in ANF,III:661
"Confession is the beginning of glory, not the full desert of the crown; nor does it perfect our praise, but it initiates our dignity; and since it is written, 'He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved,' whatever has been before the end is a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation, not a terminus wherein the full result of the ascent is already gained. " Cyprian,Unity of the Church,21(A.D. 251),in ANF,V:428
"Therefore, my beloved, we also have received of the Spirit of Christ, and Christ dwelleth in us, as it is written that the Spirit said this through the month of the Prophet: --I will dwell in them and will walk in them.Therefore let us prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ, and let us not grieve it that it may not depart from us. Remember the warning that the Apostle gives us:--Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye have been sealed unto the day of redemption. For from baptism do we receive the Spirit of Christ ... And whatever man there is that receives the Spirit from the water (of baptism) and grieves it, it departs from him until he dies, and returns according to its nature to Christ, and accuses that man of having grieved it." Aphrahat,Demonstrations,6:14(A.D. 345),in NPNF2,VIII:371-372
"Thou art made partaker of the Holy Vine. Well then, if thou abide in the Vine, thou growest as a fruitful branch; but if thou abide not, thou wilt be consumed by the fire. Let us therefore bear fruit worthily. God forbid that in us should be done what befell that barren fig-tree, that Jesus come not even now and curse us for our barrenness." Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,I:4(A.D. 350),NPNF2,VII:7
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 19, 2003.
I do not think the question about losing salvation. We cannot lose salvation because then Christ’s price on the cross would not be sufficient to keep us saved. I think the better question is if a Christian can walk away from salvation.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 23, 2003.
People do it all the time . . .unfortunately. Gail
-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 23, 2003.
Uh, people? "Indian giver"???
Should we say, "Cheater" instead?
One can lose their Salvation by losing faith and by not repenting of their sins. One can lose Salvation by not confessing their sins.
If I am to accept the idea that one can not lose their Salvation, it would be easy to live a life of uncontrollable sinning--one of a lazy unresponsible life. It just doesn't make sense.
Salvation is always offered to us. I like it when the grocery store is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. But, if I lose my money or hunger, I wouldn't care about its business hours. If I lose my faith and self-control, Salvation has no meaning for me. Therefore, as long as I have faith and confess my sins and repent of my sins, I shall have Salvation as I accept Christ as my Saviour and live by the Grace of God.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 24, 2003.
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:39,40. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:27-29.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38,39.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5.
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever." Jude 1:24,25.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.
rod says "If I am to accept the idea that one can not lose their Salvation, it would be easy to live a life of uncontrollable sinning- -one of a lazy unresponsible life" You are distorting grace and the concept of salvation.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 25, 2003.
David do you mean to tell me that you can go out into the world and committ any or all the sins that you want and still expect to maintain your Salvation? That is crazy! We have Salvation as long was we do what God says. You really haven't answered this question, but you do provide Scriptures, which can be interpreted to your liking. And, you are interpreting my beliefs--"You are distorting grace and the concept of salvation."--by your comments. Basically, I could say the same about your concepts, but I won't. I wish it were as simple as your understanding, but we are human and not perfect. We are weak and can fall into confusion. We can even find ourselves thinking that we are faithful, when in reality, we are just fooling ourselves. This is the big problem with self- interpretations of the Scriptures--doctrine.
You claim that Salvation is by "faith alone". And, again, I must remind you of your own Protestant thinking; you left out "Scriptures alone" and "grace alone". But, Scriptures tells us to confess our sins and to repent. You have not answered to these elements either. Now, how do you know if what you have done is not a sin? Or, how do you justify your deeds as being righteous? How easy is it for humans to fool themselves into believing that they are "saved" when they are simply "wishing" to be saved? God has the ultimate call on that one, we can only live by His Word and pray for His Grace. I have lived a little too long to think that a common person has that much divinity to determine his own or another's Salvation. David, you think that I distort His Scriptures? Really? Next, you'll be reserving a spot for me in Sheol, as you probably already have in previous threads.
You, nor I, can predict the future. We do not know how strong our faith will continue. It may increase or it may die. Where would this put our Salvation? You will say that if we lose our faith, we never had it to start with. Do you mean like when a child believes in Santa Claus and then one day they don't? Hey, they believed and lost that faith; they had it from the start. Do you mean like when Adam and Eve believed in God's rules and then they didn't? Yes, they had the faith before they lost it. The same thing can happen to us. I'm sure that there are times when we get confused or "angry" and do things that show evidence of our lack of faith. Hey, we had faith to start with and hit a low in our life.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 25, 2003.
Kevin writes,"Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27"
Kevin, will you please tell me what the topic is about. Well rather than wait for an answer, I'll tell you: It's about salvation.
If anyone would read the chapter of 1 Cor. 9, you will notice that it never mentions anything about salvation. It talks about being castaway from ministry.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
David,Please go back and re-read this chapter. 1 Corinthians 9:24 states, "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize?"
What prize is this David??? The prize is getting a trophy or winning the race to get the trophy or whatever the prize may be right?
Paul continues in verse 24, "Run in such a way that you may obtain it."
That the Corinthians may obtain "what"??? The "prize" of course!!! Paul stated the same thing when he wrote to the church in Philippi when he said in Philippians 3:14, "I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
The "prize" is the "upward call of God in Christ Jesus" and YES this is talking about SALVATION.
He continues in 1 Corinthians 9:25, "And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown."
The "imperishable crown" is what Paul stated in 2 Timothy 4:8, "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."
Paul continues in 1 Cor. 9:26-27, "Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
If he were "disqualified" then he would LOSE the crown of righteousness and this is why he admonished the church in Philippi in Philippians 2:12 to "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 3, 2003.
Kevin,
How do we know if we have lost our salvation? And if that is possible, how do we know when we have gained it back?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 25, 2003.
My point all along.
We don't know, so we should be in constant prayer, obedience, and faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before my words get interpreted, we need to go to Church. We need to study Scriptures. We need to do "works". We need to spread the Gospels to others. We need to worship. We need to pray. We need to seperate ourselves from worldly things. We need to confess our sins. We need to repent of those sins. We need to do penance for those sins. We need to be constantly in our faith.
It is almost like wondering when we are gonna die. It could happen anytime, but we are never sure. Oh, Protestantism preaches that a person may know with certainty. I think that is a dangerous perception to have. We should struggle and work for our Salvation and not take anything for granted. Never lose sanctity nor faith.
rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.
Wow! James.
"‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'" (Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc)"
I've always had that understanding. Does this reveal my thinking to the point of making me more like a Catholic?
I can't help things, Kevin and David. The truth seems so obvious. I didn't go digging in the catechism for most of my answers, but they do eventually turn up there as a routine. My thoughts and beliefs are continually and habitually Catholic, even if I go digging elswhere for answers. But, there is one sure piece of tangibility that I need in order to be Catholic. But, we won't discuss that, now.
St. Joan of Arc--it is amazing that she would make such a complete statement. It is also so coincidental that the church which I was baptized in was named "St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church".
rod...
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 25, 2003.
"St. Joan of Arc--it is amazing that she would make such a complete statement."
You're right, her statement is COMPLETE. She expresses All the yearnings of the human soul still on earth.
"It is also so coincidental that the church which I was baptized in was named "St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church".
Somebody up there is Talking to You.
-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.
rod,
You wrote,"My point all along. We don't know, so we should be in constant prayer, obedience, and faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
God tells us in 1 John 5:13,
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"
"we need to go to Church."
Going to church does not save you! Going to church is another topic.
"We need to study Scriptures"
Funny how you claim this because you do not trust God's Word.
"We need to do "works"."
Eph. 2:10 teaches that works will result from faith.
We under no circumstance can obligate God to save us.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 26, 2003.
rod-"We need to study Scriptures"
David-"Funny how you claim this because you do not trust God's Word."
Once again the box opens and "Romulus" gets pushed into it. The important thing to remember is the Scriptures. The Scriptures are sacred and the inspired writings. We must study the Scriptures in order to understand our chance for Salvation. What I do not trust is not the Scriptures; I do not trust the interpretations of men. There is a big difference. It is much like when "Dante" disagrees with "Keithman" over his interpretations of "works". Does "Dante" distrust the Scriptures or "Keithman's" doctrine by disagreeing with the purose of Baptism? Does "Romulus" mistrust the Scriptures when he questions Catholicism and Protestantism?
It is quiet and pensive inside that box.
rod...
.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 27, 2003.
Kevin says a Child of God can be "a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27"
No Kevin, you are wrong. God does not cast away people. Go back and re-read God's Word. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" John 6:37 / KJV
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.
rod,
Please tell me why Joan of Arc was burned by the Roman church to beging with. And yes, you are Roman Catholic!
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 27, 2003.
The Catholic Church did not burn St. Joan of Arc. It was the English who did the burnings. She was an enemy of England as she lead France into victory and also promoted Catholicism in France. She did not deny her faith in God even as the fires burned her alive. It was those anti-Catholic Protestants who did her in.
rod...
...
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
A moment in history:
From www.encarta.com
"After 14 months of interrogation, she was accused of wrongdoing in wearing masculine dress and of heresy for believing she was directly responsible to God rather than to the Roman Catholic church. The court condemned her to death, but she penitently confessed her errors, and the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. Because she resumed masculine dress after returning to jail, she was condemned again—this time by a secular court—and, on May 30, 1431, Joan was burned at the stake in the Old Market Square at Rouen as a relapsed heretic.
Twenty-five years after her death, the church retried her case, and she was pronounced innocent. In 1920 she was canonized by Pope Benedict XV; her traditional feast day is May 30."
rod, tell me why would she be burned as a heretic? Only Rome burned heretics in the name of God.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.
David wrote, How do we know if we have lost our salvation? And if that is possible, how do we know when we have gained it back?
This is how we know if we have lost our salvation: If we sin to the point that we cannot be brought back to repentance. God said in Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
We can KNOW that we are saved because God said in 1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."
God also says in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
I wrote, "Kevin says a Child of God can be "a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27"
To which David replied, "No Kevin, you are wrong. God does not cast away people. Go back and re-read God's Word. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" John 6:37 / KJV"
I answered this question on October 3 when I said, "Paul continues in 1 Cor. 9:26-27, "Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. If he were "disqualified" then he would LOSE the crown of righteousness and this is why he admonished the church in Philippi in Philippians 2:12 to "... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Why did you not answer my post concerning this subject David???
If you will also look at John 6:39 Jesus said, "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
If someone were to read this passage on its own, it would appear that this is saying that your doctrine of "OSAS" is true however, if one would also look at another passage, this statement CANNOT be true for this is what Jesus meant when He said in John 18:8-9, "Jesus answered, "I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way," that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."
However, He DID lose one for Judas WAS lost. (Acts 1:25).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.
David.
St. Joan of Arc was declared a "heretic", but the Catholic Church did not do the burning. The Catholic Church turned her over to "secular" law because it was England who wanted her dead by any means possible.
The problem is that you want to make the Catholic Church the devil. So, you we believe any invention that fomulates in your mind. You have not made a case for St. Joan of Arc to be one of God's chidren; you use her life and martyrdom as a spring-board for your anti-Catholic attacks. Why haven't you made your attack on the anti-Catholic secular English who did the burning?
Now hang on tight, David. This will rock your boat!
If St. Joan of Arc had a "relapse" of heresy, how in the world did she get men's clothes while in prison? Doesn't it seem "logical" that her incarcerators provided her with the means and persuation to do such a heretical thing? She was under their control. Who is the "devil" now, but the English!
rod...
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
"The court condemned her to death, but she penitently confessed her errors, and the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. Because she resumed masculine dress after returning to jail, she was condemned again—this time by a secular court..."
The English were going to find any possible way of killing St. Joan of Arc, even if they had to devise their own evidence against her. The Catholic Church made accusations against her which centered on theology and doctrine. St. Joan of Arc did not recant until tricked into it. Perhaps she did do some heretical things, but she maintained her faith in God. But, the Catholic Church repented in their thinking and accusations against St. Joan of Arc and confessed--still, they didn't light the pyre.
Do you know the significance of St. Joan's role in history? If you do, I can see why you would not favor her. Had she not been there, the English would have spread their heresy all over this creation.
rod...
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Two words for David: "prophecy" and "apostacy". The first word tells us of things that will come to pass; the other tells us what that thing is.
Once again--"Once Saved Always Saved"-- bull, barf and baloney!
Do Believers Ever Stop Believing?
rod...
...<
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Once saved, always saved?
The Bible says: Mark 13:13 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
The Bible does not say: “He that goes back and forth or straddles the fence will be saved.”
The Bible says: John 6:64 “’ Yet there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.” John 6:66 “From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.” John 6:69,70 “’ We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.’ Then Jesus replied, ‘Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.”
The Bible does not say: “Jesus learned who didn’t believe after they had left him.” “Those chosen by Jesus are also saved by Jesus.” “Judas was saved until he betrayed Jesus in the garden.”
The Bible says: John 8:24 “ Therefore I said to you that you will die in you sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
The Bible does not say: “The one who loves Jesus can perish.”
The Bible says: Romans 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer.”
The Bible does not say: “A Christian can live in sin as long as he asks for forgiveness.”
The Bible says: Romans 6:5 “If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.”
The Bible does not say: “If we continue to unite ourselves with him…” “…We might also be united with him in his resurrection.”
The Bible says: Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free from the law of sin and death.
The Bible does not say: “If we become condemned after entering the body of Christ, we must re-enter into it.”
The Bible says: Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over and all and through all and in all.”
The Bible does not say: “Once is never enough.” “We must re-enter the body of Christ every time we become alive in sin again.”
The Bible says: Hebrews 9:25-28 “Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again…But now he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” The Bible does not say: “A man can die many times.” “Salvation is offered many times.” “Once is not enough.”
The Bible says: 1 John 1:7 “ But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.”
The Bible does not say: “Whomever starts walking in the light then continues in darkness will be purified.” “ Jesus purifies us from the sins we committed before we became Christians.”
The Bible says: 1 John 3:5-7 “ But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”
The Bible does not say: “He that continues to sin knew him once but has wondered away.” “He that continues to sin has lost salvation.”
The Bible says: 1 John 3:9 “No one who is born of god will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”
The Bible does not say: “The seed of God is planted in him, but leaves when he sins, then comes back when he repents.” “A Christian can continue to sin.”
The Bible says: 1 John 5:18 “We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.”
The Bible does not say: “Satan can pull a child of God away from God’s own hand.”
Once saved, always saved? Of course! If Satan cannot tempt a Christian great enough as to pull him or her into a life of sin, how can a Christian lose salvation? If the seed of God remains our hearts, why will we wonder away? Those that walk away from Jesus were never with him in the beginning, and those that remain with the Lord till the end have done so by God’s desire. God does not allow for us to be resurrected in Christ, then resurrected in sin, then back into Christ again. Peace be to the brothers and sisters in Christ, amen.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Rod,
You can bull with, barf over, and baloney the idea all you want. This is scripture. The consequences are yours.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Well it's nice to know I'm not alone in this view.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
Kevin,If there is still no biblical foundation for Once Saved Always Saved, then I need a new bible.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Luke, you've got to be kidding me. You sound much like a believer in predestination. You have shut the door on free will and made all believers pure and sinless. By your interpretation, you have made the Apostle Peter unsaved because he sinned against Christ by denying him--false witness. I suppose that the Apostle Peter was never saved in the first place, bull, barf, and baloney. Thanks for giving me permission for bulling, barfing, and baloney-ing. -- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
rod, predestination is taught in the bible. Predestination -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.
No, it is interpreted to mean "predestination", just like "Once Saved Always Saved". More and more the Calvinism is being exposed here. Use your logic, Man! If predestination is for real, then why in this world would anyone bother with having faith. A person doesn't have to try about anything; he is either predestined to Heaven or Hell and has no free will at all. Man is then nothing but a puppet. Why bother trying to live a sanctified life? It has already been determined his Salvation and Damnation. This is simply illogical. Ah! but Protestants don't have any use for logic. I keep having to remember that.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Aint chee ever hurd of Providence? -- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
If you guys truly believe in Predestination and you guys are sinners, then how do you know that all of your sanctified living isn't all done in vain and you guys are already damned to fry in Hell? Afterall, some are condemned while others are saved, according to your interpretations. Walking around believing that one is saved can be a dangerous little game. "He who thinks he is something, is nothing", ever heard them words before? You guys are walking on thin ice believing in such a wishful thing--Predestination--that could very well backfire on you. And, you guys go and criticize the Book of Sirach for having Predestination as one of its themes, amazing! You Pedestrian Predestination readers are confusing that with God's Providence over man. Readup on Providence. God has provided His Providence in order for you to find Salvation. God did not predetermine every man's Salvation because that would nullify the gift of free will.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
rod, do you believe in God's foreknowledge? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 28, 2003.
A man had a deck of cards that he threw up in the air. Mr. Predestination knew which cards would fall face down and which would fall face up.
Mr. Providence knew that some would face up and some down.
God knows everthing about who will be saved or damned because He knows all. But, God does not tell the cards to fall. Man decides to face up or down and has been given that chance for Salvation. God will judge man. The judgement day will show the "cards" that face down and up. A man might think that he is facing the correct way and have hope that he is saved; he can also know if he is damned. But, all things are impossible with man, but through God all things are possible. Where have you heard that before?
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 28, 2003.
Luke, You wrote, "Once saved, always saved?"
My reply: The Bible does NOT promote this FALSE doctrine (OSAS).
You wrote, "The Bible says: Mark 13:13 "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Then you continued with: "The Bible does not say: "He that goes back and forth or straddles the fence will be saved."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. The Bible says that one must "stand firm to the end" before they can be saved. Can one CEASE to "stand firm to the end"??? The answer to this question is YES. If they CEASE to "stand firm to the end" are they still saved? Absolutely NOT.
You wrote, "The Bible says: John 6:64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." John 6:66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." John 6:69,70 "We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. Then Jesus replied, Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil."
You continued with: "The Bible does not say: "Jesus learned who didn't believe after they had left him." "Those chosen by Jesus are also saved by Jesus." "Judas was saved until he betrayed Jesus in the garden."
My reply: These verses do NOT teach OSAS. Were those who "left Jesus" saved??? Absolutely NOT!!! Not everyone "chosen by Jesus are also saved by Jesus" as you assert. Jesus said in Matt 22:14, "For many are called, but few are chosen."
You wrote, "The Bible says: John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in you sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
You continued with: "The Bible does not say: "The one who loves Jesus can perish."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. What you posted here has NOTHING to do with John 8:24. Can someone "believe in Jesus" and yet still perish??? Yes, they can believe in Jesus and still PERISH. Go back and re-read Matt. 7:21.
You wrote, "The Bible says: Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer."
You continued with: "The Bible does not say: "A Christian can live in sin as long as he asks for forgiveness."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. Do we still sin Luke after we have obeyed the gospel??? Of course we do! Go back and re-read 1 John 1:8.
You wrote, "The Bible says: Romans 6:5 "If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection."
The Bible does not say: "If we continue to unite ourselves with him?" "?We might also be united with him in his resurrection."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. Please notice the KEY word here ... IF ... we continue ... What happens to those who do NOT continue??? Are they still saved??? Absolutely NOT!
You wrote, "The Bible says: Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of Life set me free from the law of sin and death."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "If we become condemned after entering the body of Christ, we must re-enter into it."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. Please notice that this verse says that there is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. Is it possible to be OUT of Jesus??? Of course it is! Go back and re-read John 6:66.
You wrote, "The Bible says: Ephesians 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit?just as you were called to one hope when you were called?one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over and all and through all and in all."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "Once is never enough." "We must re-enter the body of Christ every time we become alive in sin again."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. What did Simon the sorcerer have to do when he sinned in Acts 8:18-19? Would he have still been saved if he did not repent of his sin??? (Acts 8:22-24). Absoulutely NOT!!!
You wrote, "The Bible says: Hebrews 9:25-28 "Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again?But now he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "A man can die many times." "Salvation is offered many times." "Once is not enough."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. Can a man still sin after he has been saved from sin??? Yes or no??? If yes, then a man "can die many times" for when we REPENT, we DIE to our sin. There IS sin that leads to DEATH. (1 John 5:16-17). It IS possible for a Christian to so sin as to be lost for this is EXACTLY what Hebrews 6:4-8 teaches.
You wrote, "The Bible says: 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "Whomever starts walking in the light then continues in darkness will be purified." "Jesus purifies us from the sins we committed before we became Christians."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. Key word once again is ... IF ... we walk in the light. What does Jesus say about those who walk in DARKNESS??? (1 John 1:6).
You wrote, "The Bible says: 1 John 3:5-7 "But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "He that continues to sin knew him once but has wondered away." "He that continues to sin has lost salvation."
My reply: These verses do NOT teach OSAS. 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
You wrote, "The Bible says: 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of god will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him, he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "The seed of God is planted in him, but leaves when he sins, then comes back when he repents." "A Christian can continue to sin."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. If "a Christian can continue to sin" then a Christian CAN lose their salvation. The SEED is the word of God (the Bible). The MORE we GROW in grace and knowledge, and the MORE we APPLY God's word to our life and allow His word to dwell in us, this is what causes us NOT to sin or to sin less and less as we GROW stronger in the Lord. If one does NOT grow, they will be CAST OUT and burned. (John 15:1-6).
You wrote, "The Bible says: 1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him."
You continued with: The Bible does not say: "Satan can pull a child of God away from God's own hand."
My reply: This verse does NOT teach OSAS. If Satan CANNOT "pull a child of God away from God's own hand", please explain how Judas was able to be influence by Satan and lost??? What does Peter say about Satan?? Go back and re-read 1 Peter 5:8.
You wrote, "Once saved, always saved? Of course! If Satan cannot tempt a Christian great enough as to pull him or her into a life of sin, how can a Christian lose salvation? If the seed of God remains our hearts, why will we wonder away? Those that walk away from Jesus were never with him in the beginning, and those that remain with the Lord till the end have done so by God's desire. God does not allow for us to be resurrected in Christ, then resurrected in sin, then back into Christ again. Peace be to the brothers and sisters in Christ, amen."
My reply: Things Children of God Can Do:
(1) Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
(2) Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
(3) Err from the truth - James 5:19-20
(4) Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
(5) Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
(6) Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
(7) Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
(8) Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
(9) Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
(10) Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14
The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness PROVES one CAN BE LOST.
1. Be steadfast immovable: 1 Corinthians 15:58 2. If these qualities are yours...2 Peter 1:5-11 3. We will reap if we do not grow weary: Galatians 6:9 4. Be faithful unto death and I will give crown of life: Revelation 2:10 5. Practice these things and God will be with you: Philippians 4:9
Man has a free will (Joshua 24:15), to argue otherwise is NONSENSE.
The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away: Acts 20:28; 1 Timothy 4:1. Christians are to restore the fallen: Galatians 6:1; James 5:19-20.
You wrote, "If there is still no biblical foundation for Once Saved Always Saved, then I need a new bible."
You might as well go pick up a new bible then for this FALSE doctrine is NOT taught in God's word.
Eternal life is CONDITIONAL upon our OBEDIENCE to God's word prior to judgement: Hebrews 3:6,14.
The Bible does teach "Security of the believer" IF the Christian remains faithful (2 Tim. 4:78). But IF we become unfaithful, we have NO such promise.
"The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23) even for an unfaithful child of God.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.
This should read: The Bible does teach "Security of the believer" IF the Christian remains faithful (2 Tim. 4:7-8).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 28, 2003.
Rod, I thought I was clear from the "Suicide" thread and this one that living in sin is NOT the same thing as committing one sin. Was I not clear? If I made christians out to be perfect, it is only because Jesus is perfect. Just because people mess up, just because I sin (and i do) doesn't mean we lower the expectations of what a Christain is supposed to be. Christians are to be holy. That means seperate or different. It is not a christian attitude to make excuses for sin. "My brother sinned, therefore it is ok that I sin." That is a lie. Unbelievers cannot live in Christ, nor can Christians live in sin. But don't you know at least one unbeliever who is kind? Don't you know at least one Christian who is impatient?
As for the predestination. Dictionaries tell us that destiny is something beyond human control. Personally, I do not let the world give me MY perspective. But there are many verses, as David will also show, that clearly show God has a predetermined plan for us. We already know that our days on earth have been predetermined by God (Psalms 139:15-16). There have been times when God used what you call a puppet for different reasons, like the King of Egypt who held the Israelites captive. Didn't Jesus predict Peter's denial? What if Peter had actually admitted to following Jesus? That would of made God out to be a liar. "But Peter insisted EMPHATICALLY,'Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." It was a sincere but false promise, and Jesus Christ knew it before it was even said.
How can you think that God doesn't know who will faithfully try to serve Jesus, and who will half-heartedly look his way? The scriptures show us that God knows our hearts. If a person comes into Christ, God knows exactly in what heart that person comes.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
Luke- You have not read my words and meanings correctly. You have put words in my mouth.
1. God does not make or use puppets--men like puppets. All men have free will to obey or disobey. God does not posess us like a demon.
2. God knows the outcome, but He provides the "setting" for our free will to act. This is Providence and we live in His Providence, not his Predestination.
3. Look at Job. He suffered and prevailed because he understood his faith in God. Job's wife chose to give up.
4. Look at Jonah. He tried to hide, but also understood his faith. The others on that boat went with the flow and gambled on Jonah's God. The whole time, Jonah and the others had a free will.
5. Look at Saul. He saw the "light". Paul is not a puppet.
6. Look at all of the figures who struggled with their decisions to obey. Look at the conversions of people.
7. God knows the outcomes, but He provides the catalyst; we make the solutions--right or wrong.
8. Predestination has no effect on us.
9. God's Providence has an effect when we choose to obey or disobey.
(David's recent regulation follows:)
Ecclesiasticus 2: 10-11
"Look at the generations of old and see: who ever trusted in the Lord and was put to shame?"
Ecclesiasticus 15:1-21
"Do not say, 'The Lord was responsible for my sinning;, for he is never the cause of what he hates.
Do not say, 'It was he who led me astray', for he has no use for a sinner.
The Lord hates all that is foul, and no one who fears him will love it either.
He himself made man in the beginning, and then left him free to make his own decisions.
If you wish, you can keep the commandments, to behave faithfully is within your power.He has set fire and water before you; put out your hand to whichever you prefer.
Man has life and death before him; whichever a man likes better will be given him.
For vast is the wisdom of the Lord; he is almighty and all- seeing.
His eyes are on those who fear him, he notes every action of man.
He never commanded anyone to be godless, he has given no one permission to sin.The Jerusalem Bible
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
Now, after reading Ecclesiasticus 15:1-21, you all are gonna try to tell me that man is "Once Saved Always Saved"? Bull, barf, and cotto salami! Oh, you'll try to defile the Scriptures by claiming the Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus 15:1-21) as being "apochryphal"--bastardly or without inspiration. Ox, puke, and chorizo! (I'm only conforming to Luke's permission to use those replies and David's "Sola Scriptura" rule.)
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
rod, Prove the book of Sirach is God's Word! All you can do is say "it's God's Word because the Roman organization told me it's God's Word."
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
David?Have you ever played a real game of chess?
You can't prove that the King James Version of the Bible that you hold in your hands is true because you have just cornered your compilers into a corner--the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has proviced the KJV, so if I shoot down my Book of Sirach based on the your assertion that the Church is untrustworthy, then your KJV will suffer the same fate. Uh, check and checkmate.
Answer B:
It is in the Holy Bible, so I must accept it as the truth.
Answer C:
I makes sense and it is only logical. I believe it.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
I wonder what you think of the Old Testament? It was compiled by the Jews; they--who did not convert--are still waiting for the Messaiah's first arrival. -- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
The Jews today still hold the same Old Testament as Christians do. The Roman church had no right to add to God's word. You want history, the Jews holding the same O.T. is proof enough that the Apocrypha is not canon. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
The Roman organization did not make the bible! And the King James version was not compiled by Catholic either. Once again rod, you do not know what logic is! Go back to logic school. "Have you ever played a real game of chess?"
Of course, I'm one of the best at school. No wait, I am the best at school. No one can beat me. rod, The reply I am working on right now that will use your logic will show you who's right. I will be done in a few minutes.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
David has provided the following: God tells us in 1 John 5:13,
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"
Ok, David prove that the above Scriptures is inspired and the word of God. Remember, you can't say that the Catholic Church had anything to do with it; you've already condemned them. And, that little thing called "logic" has suffered that pains from your tongue, as well.
I'll wait for your reply.
BTW, there is no way that you can prove it.
This is not to imply that I think that the Scripture is not inspired; it is. So, don't go asking me to prove it when you can't either.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
Ok rod, since you are so fond of logic and will not/cannot prove that the book of Sirach is inspired, then I will show you why it's not: Using logic, two things contrary to each other cannot be true.
An example: The sky is blue. The sky is not blue. According to rod, he wants us to believe that both of these is true. But obviously only one is true.
Now, on with the book of Sirach.
"Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins..." Sirach 3:3(Not found in God's Word)
"Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” Sirach 3:30(Not found in God's Word)
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11 / KJV
Since you are so fond with logic rod, you decide. Which book is God's Word. Now remember, this is a straight out teaching. Not something confusing like faith vs. works. Sirach teaches one thing, Leviticus teaches another. rod, please tell us which is God's word. Nothing mentioned about the RCO here. Using your logic, tell us. Let go of your gnostic view and Roman pride. Tell God he is wrong and lost a book.
Readers, Sirach teaches justification by works which is refuted by Eph. 2:8-10, Galatians 2:16-21
Sirach 12:4-7 (Which is not found in Gods Word) says,“Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner.”
Which is refuted by Luke 6:27-30, Romans 12:20.
There you have it readers, the 66 books of God's word do not contradict each other. But in just one book that is not God's word, it contradicts teachings in Luke, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and many more. If we are to accept this one book as God's word, then we are to denounce Luke, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians. We cannot have both. It's black or white, One or the others.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
my next reply: How we know what God's word is today. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
*Leviticus teaches another* -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
David said,"Using logic, two things contrary to each other cannot be true." rod answers-A magnet has two poles that have opposite polarities, yet when put end to end they attract and behave in a natural way. God is the Creator of such things, which seem contrary to each other. How can God be the "Alpha-Omega", Jesus and God and Spirit? There are many paradoxes and mysteries yet to be reveal by God. David said-,"An example: The sky is blue. The sky is not blue. According to rod, he wants us to believe that both of these is true. But obviously only one is true."
rod answers- In the morning, the sky may be blue or gray. In the evening, the sky may be orange or black. Some may view the sky a different color while others by a different color. But, in all truthfulness, the sky has no color; it is the water vapors that refract the sun's light, not the sky, that gives color.
David said-,"Now, on with the book of Sirach. David quotes-,"Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins..." Sirach 3:3(Not found in God's Word) "
rod answers- This can also be read to mean that when Jesus obeys His Father in Heaven, Jesus takes away the sins of the world. Remember, the Jews had a vague idea of what was to come. The Old Testament is revealed by the New Testament. We can superimpose the O.T. on the N.T. and reveal what was there all along.
David quotes-,"Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” Sirach 3:30(Not found in God's Word) "
rod answers- Once again, let's read it in light of the N.T. The reference to "flaming fire" means sin. The "water" is baptism, which prepares the way to the Kingdom of God, "alms" in this case means Jesus Christ who takes away the sins of the world.
David quotes-,"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11 / KJV"
rod answers- The O.T. (Sirach) had the prophecy in its midst and the N.T. clarified it.
David said-,"Since you are so fond with logic rod, you decide. Which book is God's Word. Now remember, this is a straight out teaching. Not something confusing like faith vs. works. Sirach teaches one thing, Leviticus teaches. rod, please tell us which is God's word. Nothing mentioned about the RCO here. Using your logic, tell us. Let go of your gnostic view and Roman pride. Tell God he is wrong and lost a book."
rod answers- God is never wrong, man sometimes is. This isn't a reference to Gnosticism or Catholicism. This is a reference to man. Just as I have shown you how Sirach is still not wrong, you have failed to identify the truth in the Book of Sirach.
David said-,"Readers, Sirach teaches justification by works which is refuted by Eph. 2:8-10, Galatians 2:16-21,"
rod answers- you chose not to refer to the Book of James."
David said-,"Sirach 12:4-7 (Which is not found in Gods Word) says,“Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner.” "
rod answers-Do not cast your pearls unto swine. This is teaching about those who do not treasure the Word of God. The preceding verse is this:
12:3 'NO good will come to a man who persists in evil, or who refuses to give alms.'
Or in other words, It is of no use for a man to do good to the wicked when he does not even do good works.
David said-,"Which is refuted by Luke 6:27-30, Romans 12:20.
There you have it readers, the 66 books of God's word do not contradict each other. But in just one book that is not God's word, it contradicts teachings in Luke, Romans, Galatians, 1 John, Ephesians and many more. If we are to accept this one book as God's word, then we are to denounce Luke, Romans, Galatians, 1 John, Ephesians. We cannot have both. It's black or white, One or the others."
rod answers- Nothing is defiled. God's teachings are still preserved, but do not let the blind read His Scriptures to you. You will stumble and fall into the pits.
rod.. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
And don't even try to attack God's word by claiming there is contradictions in the bible. You cannot claim this either because you are a Catholic and you trust their interpretations so you must accept the same 66 books I do plus the 7 that support pagan doctrines. There is no contradiction in God's Word, but the Apocrypha contradicts God's Word and claims to be un-inspired. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
The Apocrypha contains false prophecy and I did not make the reference to 1 John because that was a different topic. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
It's 2 in the morning, David. Will you please edit my post where I left out my "rod answers- " in order to clarify your comments from mine? The flow of my post got too connected.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
As you wish. I'll still be up for a long while. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
And don't even try to attack God's word by claiming there is contradictions in the bible. rod replies---I don't believe that the inspired writings have any contradictions. I do believe in paradoxical teachings given by God. .
You cannot claim this either because you are a Catholic and you trust their interpretations so you must accept the same 66 books I do plus the 7 that support pagan doctrines. .
rod replies---You still call me a "Catholic", but the Church would equate me with a "heretic", funny. Anyway, I trust their interpretations to a certain extent; that's what makes me a "heretic".
There is no contradiction in God's Word, but the Apocrypha contradicts God's Word and claims to be un-inspired. .
rod replies---Yes, the real "apocrypha" and some of the "other gospels" may be concidered apocryphal, but not the Deuterocanonical Books.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
The Apocrypha rod, You still haven't proven anything! You only make claims and you aren't even specific. This thread is on the biblical, logical doctrine of Eternal Security of a believer. Please take your Apocrypha comments to the apporpriate thread, thank you.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
David, I answered your "proof", but you didn't make any comment. You must admit that the Gospel is still preserved in the Book of Sirach. But, this still doesn't prove that any book in the Bible is inspired as the truth. And, I will tell you why. We live by faith, not by proof.
John 20:29 "You believe because you can see me.
Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe."The Jerusalem Bible
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
"You must admit that the Gospel is still preserved in the Book of Sirach." I tell you, Show me where.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
You still haven't showed the world proof that the King James Version is the inspired writings of truth. It's your move, but beware of my pawns; they have a keen sense for logic and swiftness of point. My pawn to your King's one......check and checkmate.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
Are you running rod? Don't change the subject. Go to the Apocrypha thread for a message I left you there. You want to attack the King James, make a another thread. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
I even doubt you know how to play chess. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
I'm not running; I read the other thread; I'm not attacking the KJV. You trust your guys, but not mine. I trust your guys and my guys. But, we are told not to put too much trust on any guys. I've also read the preface or introduction to the KJV Authorized Bible. It sure does sound like ol' King James was trying to make a name for himself. Who was he edifying? I'm merely keeping focus on what is significant and what is not. Now, I would go and buy all of you all's Protestant Bibles if I "hated" the Holy Bible, would I? No.
Who's lights were left on?
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
I'm waiting for your reply rod.....The book says it's not inspired...yet you say it is. which is it? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
I'm still reading. I have the NAB, the Good News, and the Jerusalem Bible. I still have the spanish translations. I'm not gonna give you a fast answer without knowing all of the facts. I'm not a "Sola Scriptura" kind of guy. I'll get down to the truth. You have already settled for your belief. Have you studied the two entire books?
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
Kevin’s Reply Things Children of God Can Do:
(1) Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
(2) Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
(3) Err from the truth - James 5:19-20
(4) Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
(5) Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
(6) Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
(7) Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
(8) Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
(9) Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
(10) Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14
My reply
1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen or known him.
Those who “fall from grace” “led away” “err from truth” “perish in weakness” “fall into condemnation” “moved away from hope” “deny the lord” “depart from God” “become a castaway” “become accursed children” NEVER KNEW JESUS FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Hebrews 6:4-8) IF, IF, IF a true Christian were to fall away, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for him to return to Christ. Repentance is NOT when one dies to sin. Unbelievers repent many times, but never die to sin. The only way to die to sin is to become alive in Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE to continue to die to sin AFTER one is a Christian. Whoever has faith that never produces fruit is NOT a Christian.
Kevin, please tell me how Satan can “cause one to fall” “lead one away” “make one err from truth” “cause one to perish in weakness” “cause one to fall into condemnation” “move one from hope” “cause one to deny the lord” “make one depart from God” “make one a castaway” “cause one to become accursed children.” Please tell me how Satan can do this if 1John says that Satan cannot harm those who are born of God. If you would please tell me, then perhaps I would have a better understanding as to why you think OSAS is false.
You told me that a Christian can lose salvation. I can see the verses that imply that. Every time a Christian sins he “falls” but not from salvation. Why is it you feel one can be reinstated from losing it?
Rod,
I never put words into your mouth. It was you who brought up predestination, not I. I typed from scripture.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), November 29, 2003.
bump
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
Luke,You wrote, "1 John 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen or known him."
Do we still sin??? Of course we do. Does this mean that since we "continue to sin" that we neither see nor know him???
You wrote, "Those who "fall from grace" "led away" "err from truth" "perish in weakness" "fall into condemnation" "moved away from hope" "deny the lord" "depart from God" "become a castaway" "become accursed children" NEVER KNEW JESUS FROM THE BEGINNING."
Really now Luke??? If they "NEVER KNEW JESUS FROM THE BEGINNING" then please explain how a Non-Christian can do any of these things "fall from grace" "led away" "err from truth" "perish in weakness" "fall into condemnation" "moved away from hope" "deny the lord" "depart from God" "become a castaway" "become accursed children" IF as you allege they never knew Jesus to begin with???
You wrote, " (Hebrews 6:4-8) IF, IF, IF a true Christian were to fall away, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for him to return to Christ. Repentance is NOT when one dies to sin. Unbelievers repent many times, but never die to sin. The only way to die to sin is to become alive in Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE to continue to die to sin AFTER one is a Christian. Whoever has faith that never produces fruit is NOT a Christian."
Really now Luke, it is only IMPOSSIBLE for one to return to Christ if they do NOT repent. What is repentance Luke??? I would like to hear what you think it means because it does not appear that you know what TRUE repentance is. When we repent, WE do indeed DIE TO SIN. If not, why not??? If it is IMPOSSIBLE to continue to die to sin (in repentance) after one becomes a Christian, then one CANNOT be saved for we ALL SIN.
We will NEVER come to the point where we do not commit any sin while we are here on this earth. There is SIN that leads to death, and there is sin that does NOT lead to death. That is why when someone TURNS from the TRUTH, we do our best to turn them back for Jude 23 says, "but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh." And these verses in James 5:19-20 teach the same thing, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."
You wrote, "Kevin, please tell me how Satan can "cause one to fall" "lead one away" "make one err from truth" "cause one to perish in weakness" "cause one to fall into condemnation" "move one from hope" "cause one to deny the lord" "make one depart from God" "make one a castaway" "cause one to become accursed children." Please tell me how Satan can do this if 1John says that Satan cannot harm those who are born of God. If you would please tell me, then perhaps I would have a better understanding as to why you think OSAS is false."
Please tell me where it says that Satan CANNOT harm those who are born of God??? Please explain to me why would Peter even make the comment about Satan being able to DEVOUR people if he were not able to do this very thing??? (1 Peter 5:8).
You wrote, "You told me that a Christian can lose salvation. I can see the verses that imply that. Every time a Christian sins he "falls" but not from salvation. Why is it you feel one can be reinstated from losing it?"
Because salvation is CONDITIONAL. Salvation is conditional UNTIL God has seen our faith in action and has TESTED us and found us worthy of eternal life. James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.
Many in the denominational world (and in the Lord's church) who are following the false teachings of John Calvin believe that once a person is saved he can never be lost, or in other words, ONE CAN NEVER FALL FROM GRACE! Does the Bible really teach this doctrine?
NO, the Bible DOES NOT teach this FALSE DOCTRINE!
Please read the context of each of the below passages in your Bible.
The Bible PLAINLY teaches that A CHILD OF GOD can so sin as to be eternally lost, because SIN can cause one to FALL into condemnation (Jam. 5:12).
Judas, a CHOSEN Apostle of Christ, "by transgression FELL" (Acts 1:25).
The Apostle Paul said it WAS POSSIBLE for he himself to be "A CASTAWAY." So to prevent it, he buffeted his body (1 Cor. 9:27).
Christians CAN SO SIN as to be ETERNALLY LOST, because they can become so ENTANGLED in sin that "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning" (2 Pet. 2:20-22).
The church at Ephesus HAD FALLEN and was in danger of losing its candlestick (Rev. 2:5).
A CHILD OF GOD CAN BE LOST, because he can lie and die in that SIN (Acts 5:1-11). The FATE of those who die in that condition is seen in Rev. 21:8: "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..."
Friends, the Holy Spirit says THAT SOME CHRISTIANS "shall depart from the faith" (1 Tim. 4:1-3). "An evil heart of unbelief" can cause them to depart (Heb. 3:12). Those who depart will have "DAMNATION" (1 Tim. 5:12), and be "DELIVERED UNTO SATAN" (l Tim. 1:19-20).
The Galatians were told that THEY HAD "fallen from grace" by attempting to be justified by the law of Moses (Gal. 5:4). Thus, not only is it POSSIBLE for Christians TO FALL FROM GRACE, but in this instance it ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Even so, the FALSE TEACHERS say it is impossible.
NOTE THIS UNDENIABLE SYLLOGISM:
(1) Man is saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).
(2) A Christian may fall from grace (Gal. 5:4).
(3) Therefore, a Christian may be lost ETERNALLY.
2 Peter 1:10 declares there are THINGS for the Christian TO DO to keep from falling (vs 5-9). This unmistakably implies that if one does not do these things HE WILL FALL!!!
Paul admonished the Corinthian Christians to "take heed" LEST THEY FALL (1 Cor. 10:12). If one cannot fall, WHY was this command given?
The parable of the sower emphatically refutes the FALSE DOCTRINE of "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" (Read Matt. 13:3:8, 18-23; Luke 8:4-15). The stony and thorny ground Christians BELIEVED FOR AWHILE, but due to sin THEY FAILED TO PRODUCE FRUIT. Their appointed lot is to be "cast into the fire" (Matt. 7:19).
The parable of the vine and the branches IS MORE PROOF that a branch in the vine, a CHRISTIAN, can be burned (John 15:1-6). We also learn from the parable of the talents that a SERVANT OF THE LORD CAN BE LOST (Matt. 25:24-30). Jesus even said that His angels would gather certain ones out of HIS KINGDOM and "CAST THEM INTO a furnace of fire" (Matt. 13:41-42).
The FALSE DOCTRINE that a child of God CANNOT SO SIN as to be eternally lost BEGAN IN THE MIND OF SATAN! He is the author of it and first preached it to Adam and Eve in the garden (READ Gen. 3:3-4). In current language, Satan was saying, "You shall not be condemned because you are a child of God, and it is impossible for you to fall and be lost."
Many more passages could be cited which plainly teach that a saved soul can be lost (Please READ Heb. 4:11; 6:4-6; 12:15; 2 Pet. 3:17; Jam. 5:19-20; Matt. 25:41-46; Luke 9:62; Gal. 5:19-21 ).,
BUT THINK ABOUT THIS: If a child of God cannot be lost, the devil is a fool. He has been laboring for about 6,000 years to damn the souls of the children of God; and if he has never succeeded in damning the soul OF EVEN ONE CHILD OF GOD, he is a simpleton for continuing.
Those who teach the false doctrine of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED are confused about the following scriptures: John 5:24; Rom. 8:35-39; 1 John 3:9; Rom. 7:15-25; 1 Cor. 3:15; 10:13; and John 10:27-28.
Let's shed a little light on these passages:
John 5:24 is used by the FALSE TEACHERS of the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine to prove that Christians have eternal life NOW, and hence, it is impossible for them to be lost. However, a close study of this passage reveals that Jesus carried Himself forward to the judgment day, and spoke these words as if it were present (cf. Matt. 26:28).
The New Testament teaches in many places that the Christian does not NOW have eternal life in actuality (Matt. 25:46; Rom. 2:6-7; 6:22; 8:24-25). The Christian has eternal life NOW ONLY IN PROMISE (1 John 2:25) and HOPE (Tit. 1:2). Eternal life IN ACTUALITY is to be received "IN THE WORLD TO COME" (Mark 10:30). Remember, one passage of Scripture NEVER contradicts another!
Romans 8:35-39 simply teaches that external things CANNOT SEPARATE US from the love of God. However, the Bible plainly teaches that WE CAN SEPARATE OURSELVES from the love of God (John 15:9-10; Jude 21). The fact that God loves man IS NO PROOF OF MAN'S ETERNAL SALVATION, for God loves the whole world (John 3:16), yet most of the world will be lost (Matt. 7:13-14).
In 1 John 3:9, John is NOT teaching that it is impossible for a Christian to EVER sin, because he teaches in other plain verses that he can (1 John 1:8-9; 2:1 ). The person who places an interpretation on one passage that contradicts other plain passages has surely misinterpreted it.
John IS SAYING that the Christian will not "sin habitually" (Greek present tense) because "HIS SEED REMAINETH in him." The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). The Word, WHEN ADHERED TO, will not allow a life of HABITUAL SIN (cf. Ps. 119:11).
Remember, unrepented sin will result in death (1 John 5:16), so a Christian CAN SO SIN AS TO BE LOST (Jam. 5:19-20).
Romans 7:15-25 is used by the FALSE TEACHERS in an effort to prove that it is the BODY of the Christian which sins and NOT his SPIRIT. If so - THEY REASON - and if what a man sows he shall reap (Gal. 6:6-7), then his BODY will be cast into hell while his SPIRIT will go to heaven! ABSURD!!
The TRUTH OF THE MATTER is as follows:
(1) The SPIRIT OF MAN lets sin reign in the body (Rom. 6:12).
(2) It is THE SPIRIT instead of the body that knows ( 1 Cor. 2:11).
(3) Some sins are committed to gratify the flesh, but they are first committed in the heart and proceed from the heart (Mark 7:21-23). Thus, the soul of man can be lost (Matt. 16:26).
The WORK which may be burned in 1 Corinthians 3:15 are the PEOPLE converted by the teacher. This would be a loss, but the teacher himself could still be saved. The Corinthians were Paul's work and HE FEARED THAT SOME MIGHT BE LOST. Thus, this verse DISPROVES rather than proves the impossibility of apostasy.
We learn from 1 Corinthians 10:13 that God is faithful to make an OPPORTUNITY OF ESCAPE for the Christian, BUT the Christian must seize the opportunity or HE WILL FALL; for the preceding verse says, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
The promises contained in John 10:27-28 are CONDITIONAL and dependent upon the person FOLLOWING Christ: "they follow me." Jesus teaches in the twelfth verse of this chapter that the sheep can be caught and scattered.
After being born into the family of God (John 3:3-5), a child of God CAN so conduct himself as TO FORFEIT all privileges and blessings pertaining to sonship. This is illustrated in the story of "The Prodigal Son" (Luke 15:11-32). The younger son BECAME LOST when he DESPISED his sonship and WASTED his substance in riotous living; yet he was still a son! When he REPENTED and RETURNED home, all the blessings of sonship were restored to him. But he would have REMAINED "A LOST SON" if he had died in his IMPENITENT state.
To become a Christian one must hear the Word of God (Rom. 10:17), believe with all his heart (Rom. 10:9-10), confess Christ as the Son of God (Matt. 10:32-33), and "repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). The person who obeys these commands becomes a Christian. He then must CONTINUE to walk in the light (1 John 1:7) or be FAITHFUL unto death (Rev. 2:10), and THEN he will receive the crown of life.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.
Kevin, First what you requested : 1 John 5:18 says that satan cannot harm he who is born of God.
Also you said that a christian who loses salvation will remain lost unless he repents. But Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible for a mature christian to be brought back into repentance once he has fallen. But you said that if a christian repents from a fallen state he will be saved.
In the situation of Judas, was chosen like you said. But being chosen didn't save him. If it were so, then John 6:65 would be false. Therefore Judas never "got up" to fall.
I've been reading the verses that you repeatedly posted about what a Child of god can do, and it does look like a christian can fall. The verses in 2 Peter2:1,14 are describing false teachers, not children of God, but the other verses you supplied apply.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 1, 2003.
Also about the verses from 1 John regarding sin. It says 'no one wholives in him keeps on sinning. no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him' and also 'anyone born of God does not continue to sin.' It says continue, not will never. That was a nasty double negative. Christians will sin because we are human and weak. But we are not to continue to sin as if we were our old selves. Christians will struggle with temptation (should flee, actually), whereas unbelievers don't necessarily need to be tempted to sin.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 1, 2003.
Luke, You wrote, "First what you requested : 1 John 5:18 says that satan cannot harm he who is born of God."
Please notice that this verse says, "...but he who has been born of God keeps himself...". It is those who "keeps himself" that are able to be safe from Satan, and NOT everyone who is "born of God". It is those who "submit to God AND resist the devil" (James 4:7) that Satan CANNOT touch.
You wrote, "Also you said that a christian who loses salvation will remain lost unless he repents. But Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible for a mature christian to be brought back into repentance once he has fallen. But you said that if a christian repents from a fallen state he will be saved."
It is ONLY "impossible" if one so sins to the point that they CANNOT be brought back to repentance. Go back and re-read the story of the 7 churches in the book of Revelation chapters 2 and 3. Jesus repeatedly told them to "repent". Why even give the admonition to the churches if someone was not able to "repent" and be saved??? If they did NOT repent, Jesus said He would "remove their lampstand" which means they would LOSE their salvation.
You wrote, "In the situation of Judas, was chosen like you said. But being chosen didn't save him. If it were so, then John 6:65 would be false. Therefore Judas never "got up" to fall."
Judas WAS an apostle, and thus a child of God. Judas sinned (John 19:11) and also Ananias and Sapphira who were ALSO children of God, when they sinned perished when they LIED to God. (Acts 5:1-11).
You wrote, "I've been reading the verses that you repeatedly posted about what a Child of god can do, and it does look like a christian can fall. The verses in 2 Peter2:1,14 are describing false teachers, not children of God, but the other verses you supplied apply."
Luke, yes those "false teachers" were children of God. How can a "false teacher" INSTRUCT a child of God??? There have ALWAYS been "false teachers" in the Lord's church, even to this day there are MANY who are leading people astray.
Is it possible for a child of God to become a false teacher??? Of course it is...!!! That is why we are ADMONISHED to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Tim 2:15).
You wrote, "Also about the verses from 1 John regarding sin. It says 'no one wholives in him keeps on sinning. no one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him' and also 'anyone born of God does not continue to sin.' It says continue, not will never. That was a nasty double negative. Christians will sin because we are human and weak. But we are not to continue to sin as if we were our old selves. Christians will struggle with temptation (should flee, actually), whereas unbelievers don't necessarily need to be tempted to sin."
True, that is why we are to, "...grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...." (2 Peter 3:18). AND to "work out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING" (Phil. 2:12). The MORE we grow, the LESS we sin and become more like Christ.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 1, 2003.
Kevin, Ever hear of these "Conversations with God" books? I came across it at the prompting of someone in another thread. This Neal guy fits the "false teacher" suit with ease.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 1, 2003.
Luke, No, I can't say that I have ever heard of them...
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), December 1, 2003.
David, Sirach's quote you mention: "Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins..." Sirach 3:3(Not found in God's Word)
Has nothing to do with works as you understand it. It is righteousness, it deal with the 5th commandment: Honor your Father and mother.
see Jesus on this point: Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free]. Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand: Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
It is through the Book Jesus son of Sirach that we know which books were accepted during his time period: 200- 220 BC, before the Maccabees.
It is in the last chapter.
Which books are not mentioned:
Job, Esther, Song of Songs, Qoheleth, Daniel (This makes me believe daniel as we know it was not yet finished). These are in the Hebrew- Judean and Protestant Canons) and 1-2 Maccabees (not yet on the scene , since this happened around 165 BC), Judit, Tobit, Baruch, (Which are in the Catholic Canon).
As to all 66 books are in agreement ,
Sorry to say, but Song of Songs doesn't hit the nail. It is a poem about sex and lust.
Sgs 1:13 A bundle of myrrh [is] my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.
Sgs 4:5 Thy two breasts [are] like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
Sgs 7:3 Thy two breasts [are] like two young roes [that are] twins.
7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters [of grapes].
Sgs 7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;
Sgs 8:1 O that thou [wert] as my brother, that sucked the breasts of my mother! [when] I should find thee without, I would kiss thee; yea, I should not be despised.
Sgs 8:8 We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?
Sgs 8:10 I [am] a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour.
This book is a good sex book.
But, is is not a holy book.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), December 2, 2003.
rod asked,"Have you studied the two entire books" Growing up in a bible believing church, we read most of the Old and New Testaments.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 3, 2003.
Luke wrote: "God does not allow for us to be resurrected in Christ, then resurrected in sin, then back into Christ again. " Well, Luke, you need to stay sinless or your chances of Salvation will be taken away from you, if you continue to believe such a distorted doctrine/theology. I ask you, Luke; are you saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was offered only once? He offers forgiveness only once; take it or leave it for a limited time offer kind of deal?
Bull, Barf, and Baloney!
There is no man on this earth who is without sin. Man is going to sin. If a man comes to you for forgiveness, give him forgiveness. If he comes to you seven times, give him forgiveness seven times.
......................................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 3, 2003.
There you go again rod, with your theology. Nothing to back up what you just said. We cannot stay sinless, but we are forgiven of our sins. Past Present and Future, only we don't know we committed them yet. God knows and God forgave them. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 3, 2003.
"you need to stay sinless or your chances of Salvation will be taken away from you," Please tell me where you got this idea rod?
"I ask you, Luke; are you saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was offered only once?"
No he's not just saying that, God said that. It's in the bible rod.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 3, 2003.
1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 3, 2003.
David can you read??? I am showing Luke's point of view. You need to understand my writings by reading them carefully. You need to address Luke for those are the things he seems to believe. Not me..I believe in Salvation. I believe that all men have the choice to confess, repent, and do penance for those sins. I believe that Jesus died for our sins and we will be saved when we accept Him as OUR Saviour. The idea of being sinless is crazy. All men sin and will continue to sin, unlike Luke's implications.
..................................................................... ............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 4, 2003.
There is a claim that those who teach eternal security say we can live in a life of sin (which is a false claim), if anything, those who teach against eternal security, or conditional security (really OSAS with there own wicked twist), teach that one can live in a life of sin. It kind of goes like...."I'll party all night, I'll do all these drugs....I'll lose my salvation, but I'll regain it back sunday morning after I repent". -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 20, 2003.
Well, I'm not the partying type or the sin tonight confess tomorrow kind of guy. I try to live a righteous life, but having to live in this world and deal with unrighteous people does make for moments of stumbling. We do have forgiveness when we confess, repent, and do penance under Jesus Christ Our Saviour. There is sin everywhere we go. There are tiny ones and humongous ones. We are also constanly tempted with miniscule ones and cosmic ones. .................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), December 20, 2003.
Rod, yes I believe Christ offered himself once, and once is sufficient for us. Hebrews says this. The misunderstanding about Once Saved Always Saved is that it allows christians to sin carelessly and still have hope for heaven. This isn't true. What this means is that a true christian will not sin so heavily, as Kevin put it, as to warrant an exclusion from Salvation. The Bible shows often that those who leave the church, who turn from the truth, those who fall from grace in reality were NEVER saved in the first place,, but only playing the part. Anyone can "go through the motions" but remained unsaved in the church.
John even writes that many antichrists have gone out from among us. By Kevin's reasoning, "gone out from among us" imply's automatically that they were saved but have lost salvation. But John adds "But they were never really with us. Because if they were with us they would of stayed with us, but they have left."
Yes Christians sin. It's a part of human nature, it IS human nature. Those who mess up but keep fighting to stay hopeful in Christ are the one's who will win the race. Backsliding is NOT a biblical term nor concept. This was an invention to ease the mind that it's ok to come back to the Lord even after years or so of disobeying God. The truth is, those who "backslide" probably were NEVER saved in the first place.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
"The truth is, those who "backslide" probably were NEVER saved in the first place. " I do not subscribe to such a doctrine as "...never saved in the first place." "Probably" makes for a very weak argument. Did Peter deny Christ three times and committ a sin by doing so? Was he never saved in the first place? Who cares!? When the dust clears, has Peter found Salvation, yes. The problem is that a group of people will come up with theologies and doctrines that go against Catholicism just to go against Catholicism. "Once Saved, Always Saved" is one of those doctrines. "Never saved in the first place" is another clever doctrine. Confess your sins and if your brother comes seven times, forgive him seven times. I think that's the basic plan of forgiveness. Sin Nature? If we have sin and will continue to have sin, then I guess that we were never saved in the first place. Funny, it works in reverse too!
.........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
When the sinner "backslides"--for what ever circumstances--he still has the offer of Salvation. Luke are you saying that sinners can continue sinning--no one is without sin--and have been "elected" to be saved? Or, are sinners saved only once, if they sin "big" enough, they'll lose their Salvation? Or, there is no such thing as forgiveness nor confession of sins? Or, Christ's Sacrifice is only for the "elect"? Or, His Sacrifice is irrelavant since God has already "elected" who would be saved? "Once Saved, Always Saved" sound hokey. "Never saved in the first place" sounds pokey. It all sounds hokey pokey. When were these doctrines instituted and by whom, Calvin?
.......................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
To Kevin: Do you believe you will ever lose your salvation? Why or Why not? Do you believe you will keep on obeying God and make it to heaven? Why or Why not? Right now you might say that you know you are saved because you have "obeyed" God, but how much obedience is necessary? 10%? 30%? 50%? 100%? Do you think you will ever become unsaved? To rod: I don't get what you mean by "reverse nature". We all know we are all sinners, no one has said that a Christian does not sin either. If (or should I say when) a Christian sins, we have an advocate; Jesus Christ. You tell me what sin is big enough to "lose your salvation". Stealing a candy? Saying a cuss word? Murdering someone? On the doctrines of grace, rod, they are in the bible. not made up by some man.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness. I'll have to find the Scriptures that state that. It seems like Luke (not the Apostle) knows of a sin that will show one's fall from Grace or proof of never having Grace. Luke is also implying that sins can be graded from light to heavy, hmm sounds like Venial and Mortal sin.
My point is that man is a sinner and will always be a sinner and will have some sin in him or live in sin. If this is a given, where does one get the idea that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is for real when the sinner may committ a sin to prove he never had Salvation. That is so illogical. Try making a mathematical formula out of that doctrine-- it just doesn't work.
Let's say that Mr. G has prooved his faith to men; God already knows this Mr. G's Salvation. Everybody in his world pretty much calls him saved, gosh, even Mr. G goes around telling everyone that he is "saved". Then, one day Mr. G does something really stupid like kill or cheats on his wife.
1. Is Mr. G saved?
2. Is Mr. G wrong in proclaiming himself saved in the first place?
3. Is Mr. G not saved either way?
4. Is Mr. G still offered Salvation?
5. How can Mr. G regain or gain his Salvation?
How does "Once Saved, Always Saved" make any sense in this particular scenario?
Now, if Mr. G is a habitual sinner of a particular sin and he keeps confessing the same sins all the time, he may very well have lost his Salvation. He isn't taking things seriously and practically mocking the Holy Spirit. That's what I understand about that unforgivable sin. But, even then, Mr. G may one day make the confession that will open the door to his chances of Salvation because Christ' Sacrifice is always offered to all souls. "OSAS" denies that fact with the "never saved in the first place" idea and the Calvinism that it came from.
..............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
A christian cannot commit that against the Holy Spirit. No need to worry.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
1. Is Mr. G saved?Yes.
2. Is Mr. G wrong in proclaiming himself saved in the first place?
No.
3. Is Mr. G not saved either way?
Mr. G is saved.
4. Is Mr. G still offered Salvation?
I don't get this question.
5. How can Mr. G regain or gain his Salvation?
He never lost his Salvation
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.
David do you even believe in confession of sins? Catholics are accused of "sin today, confess tomorrow, saved again", but, it seems that your view is "sin today, don't say a word, saved anyway". If Catholics were to follow those other doctrines, I suppose they would be saved by default, anyway. So, why bother trying to correct Catholics, they're saved either way you slice it.
........................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
David, You wrote, "Do you believe you will ever lose your salvation? Why or Why not?"
If I remain faithful until I die, then the answer is NO. If I turn away from the Lord, then the answer is YES.
You wrote, "Do you believe you will keep on obeying God and make it to heaven? Why or Why not?"
If I continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling, I will make it to heaven.
You wrote, "Right now you might say that you know you are saved because you have "obeyed" God, but how much obedience is necessary? 10%? 30%? 50%? 100%?"
Come on David what kind of question is this??? God says in 1 John 2:3 "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."
You wrote, "Do you think you will ever become unsaved?"
Not if I continue to remain faithful!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 21, 2004.
How do you remain faithful? by your will or the will of God? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 21, 2004.
I know you keep telling me that you are not into Calvinism, but there is that calvinistic tone again, David. Of course, it is God's will that all be saved, but it takes man's will to accept that offer-- Jesus Christ. Calvinism will continue to put those strings on us as if we were puppets. It doesn't work that way cuz if it did God way certainly hate those who didn't make that predestined list of the "elect". Why have those poor souls suffer in Hell because they were born as the un-elected? ......................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
Rod, I never said anything about "elect" go to heaven. And I am not saying a saved person will never sin. What I am saying is that someone who is a christian will repent after sinning, which sets him apart from those who sin, then continue to sin, then find themselves in a hole.
I hear more about Calvinism from you than anywhere else. His name has never been mentioned to me before in church, so if my ideas seem to align with his, it's not by any teaching i've received. I'm here to learn and to teach. I don't know everything like others do. Neither you nor Kevin has sucessfully disproven this theory, so I'm still undecided.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
Name any theory that has been proven, Luke. It isn't that they must be proven, it is that people believe those theories, that matters. ..................................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
David, I remain faithful by MY will.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 22, 2004.
bump
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
Luke,You wrote, "Neither you nor Kevin has sucessfully disproven this theory, so I'm still undecided."
Please look up the corresponding verses in your own Bible for yourself. Study them carefully, then answer each question, according to the word of God.
[Moderators Note: Questions posted were removed; They can be found at either of these two sites]
http://www.gospeljohn.com/OSASBStudy.htm
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/question.htm
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 21, 2004.
bump
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
Luke,You wrote, "Neither you nor Kevin has sucessfully disproven this theory, so I'm still undecided."
Please look up the corresponding verses in your own Bible for yourself. Study them carefully, then answer each question, according to the word of God.
[Moderators Note: Questions posted were removed; They can be found at either of these two sites]
http://www.gospeljohn.com/OSASBStudy.htm
[This site also believes one is saved by faith alone]
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/question.htm-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 22, 2004.
P.S. For those of you who were wondering, NO I did not write the questions in my last post and NO, I do NOT know who did. The Author is UNKNOWN. -- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 22, 2004.
I have a question: Can that questionaire be considered as one of the following?
1. creed.
2. contract.
3. doctrinal checklist.
4. man-made guideline.
5. inspired questionaire.
6. another "new" doctrinal abstract we should beware of......................................................
If by answering, am I now in accordance with Scriptures or God?
..................................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
Ah ha! Now that's something useful. Thank you kevin. As I reread your responses to my long post early with the scriptural references, I believe my wording confused you, and you ended up agreeing with what I thought about a few of them. That's understandable,,I meant to format the text differently for easy reading. [B] ! [/B] In truth, anyone can take one or more verses, and come up with any interpretation. This is a foundation for many cults. Some people choose, instead, to ignore other verses. This is a foundation for many denominations. Either way, cut-n-paste bibles are dangerous.
Honestly, it is easy to understand the antigonist feelings from the Catholic church about our supposed cut-n-paste version.
I'm going to work through this study guide. As a man once said, "I hate to be wrong."
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
"Honestly, it is easy to understand the antigonist feelings from the Catholic church about our supposed cut-n-paste version." Hey, Luke. I like your honesty and reference to King Henry the VII's "cut-n-paste" Bible. Yes, I would agree about his antigonistic feelings, too. You do recall Henry's little tiff with the Church, yes?
.........................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
uh.....Henry VIII I didn't push hard enough; I guess.
.........................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 22, 2004.
Salvation cannot be lost, however, a Saved person can stuble and even fall into sin, however, Jesus died to wash ALL our sins, not just past, but ALL, past,present and future. "If you are saved you are saved forever, if you were not saved forever, you were never saved" Pastor James Scudder. -- Don Schmidt (nscaledon@netzero.net), January 23, 2003.
Amen! -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 23, 2004.
anathema. ...................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 23, 2004.
"Salvation cannot be lost" Tell that to Judas or Ananias, or Sapphira...
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.
Well is there any evidence that any of those people were saved to begin with? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 24, 2004.
David, Was Judas an apostle, Yes or No??? If you answer Yes (and that is your ONLY answer), then he was saved. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fall from someplace that you have never been.
If Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11) had NOT obeyed the gospel, then please explain why (1) they gave money to the apostles (Go back and re-read Acts 4:32-37). (2) if you say they were not saved to begin with, then please explain WHY God killed them? (Acts 5:5, 10)(3) if they were NOT members of the church, then the church would have NOTHING to fear. (See Acts 5:11).
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.
Oops, I forgot to add the following "to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression FELL, that HE MIGHT GO TO HIS OWN PLACE." (Acts 1:25) before "It is IMPOSSIBLE to fall from someplace that you have never been."
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), January 24, 2004.
"Well is there any evidence that any of those people were saved to begin with? " Well.........the "Sola Fide"(Faith Alone) bunch will say that they certainly did have their Salvation nicely secured. All one needs is faith according to your doctrine, remember?
.............................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 24, 2004.
David Judas was most certainly an Apostle.
of course, his ultimate place in the plan of Salvation lies with the Redeemer.
in the moment before his suicide, who apart from God knew what he was going through. and who, apart from God, could decide his fate.
that said, i am agreeing with Kevin. if he truly repented, well,...., the same applies to all suicidants. who knows.
until you have walked a mile in a man's boots, judge him not.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 24, 2004.
David, why don't you use your Calvinism/Predestination Doctrine to explain the role Judas played? It would seem that God already had predestined creation of Judas and his betrayal. This would put Judas in Hell before Judas was on earth. Or, would you rather rethink "Free Will" and the fact that souls choose to accept or reject Salvation? ....................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 1, 2004.
Kevin, you keep talking about the salvation Judas lost. Judas, though he was one of the original 12, he was NOT saved ever! Jesus said earlier in the ministy that he was a devil, though Jesus didn't name him personally. John, the beloved, realized that those who are truly with Christ Jesus cannot walk away from him. He realized that Judas was NEVER a part of them. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 1, 2004.
Luke, So people can think they're saved but they're not really saved?
-- John Miskell (RomanRite@aol.com), February 2, 2004.
Of course John. Read Matthew 7 beginning in verse 31. Many will try to claim Jesus as Lord on judgement day, but he will deny knowing them. Though, it could be said that these people knew all along they weren't saved, but are trying to justify themselves as a last hope before the Father. It won't work. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 3, 2004.
Luke, Judas WAS an apostle, hence he WAS saved.
Judas MOST CERTAINLY was saved for Acts 1:17 states, "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
In praying for Judas replacement, Acts 1:24-25 states, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part IN THIS MINISTRY AND APOSTLESHIP FROM WHICH JUDAS BY TRANSGRESSION FELL, that he might go to his own place." It is IMPOSSIBLE to FALL from someplace one has never been.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 3, 2004.
Kevin, if John wrote that it was possible to go out from something you were never in, could it be possible to fall when you've never been up? You know as well as I do that a person can attend services, serve on a ministry team, and confess Jesus as Christ but never be saved. I would say some of these are the ones who go out (though they were never in) from among us and teach false doctrine. These "antichrists" as John put it, were NEVER a part of the body, even though they were amoung or "in" it. Judas was an apostle. Now we know that an apostle is like an envoy or messenger. Judas, like the other 11, was given the power by Jesus to drive out demons and heal the sick, and make disciples in the name of Christ. This made him an apostle.
The apostles are those who carry something on behalf of the sender, which is why Paul was also an apostle (even though he wasn't of the original 12). Judas fell from this ministry, the apostleship. That is what your verse in Acts is referring to. But this does not represent a fall from salvation.
I gave John Miskell the verse in Matthew. It is possible to confess that Jesus Is Christ,, to do many miracles in his name, and still be condemned. Being an apostle is not synonymous with being saved.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 3, 2004.
Kevin, Do you consider Luke a heretic for believing in what you call "Once Saved Always Saved"?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 3, 2004.
I don't believe either way actually David. Sometimes the best way to establish truth is to defend both sides. If you have insufficient Biblical support for one side, then you know that to be false. That does not always mean the opposite is true though, but in some cases it might. Perhaps there is an undiscovered "3rd" choice that you've never considered. For now, I read fully the posts of others, point out errors, and show evidence for what i'm defending. If i'm wrong (i hate being wrong) then I am thankful for learning. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 3, 2004.
Luke, You wrote, "Kevin, if John wrote that it was possible to go out from something you were never in, could it be possible to fall when you've never been up? You know as well as I do that a person can attend services, serve on a ministry team, and confess Jesus as Christ but never be saved."
No Luke that is not true. We can ONLY judge what we see. We CANNOT judge if one's heart is right with God, ONLY God can judge the heart. However, we CAN JUDGE WHAT WE SEE and if they OBEY THE GOSPEL (yes, we can see their obedience). What does God say in the parable of the sower??? Go back and re-read Mark 4:3-8 and Mark 4:14-20. It is POSSIBLE to become a Christian and FALL AWAY.
Yes, Judas was an apostle and he WAS SAVED. If he was NOT saved, please explain the verse that I quoted to you which stated that "Judas by transgression FELL" if he was NOT saved.
Luke we can either CHOOSE to do what God says, or we can CHOOSE to be like Judas or the angels before him who sinned and will be PUNISHED for their DISOBEDIENCE.
Jesus said in John 15:5, "I am the vine, you are the branches. HE WHO ABIDES IN ME, AND I IN HIM BEARS MUCH FRUIT; for without Me you can do nothing."
Please notice the ADMONITION in verse 6, "IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, he is CAST OUT AS A BRANCH AND WITHERED; and they gather them and THROW THEM INTO THE FIRE, and THEY ARE BURNED."
David,
No, he is NOT a "heretic", but an erring brother.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 3, 2004.
"Yes, Judas was an apostle and he WAS SAVED. If he was NOT saved, please explain the verse that I quoted to you which stated that "Judas by transgression FELL" if he was NOT saved. " Kevin I already explained this. Judas by transgression fell from the apostleship. You are misinterpreting that he fell from salvation. Apostle and salvation are NOT synonyms. Please show me in this verse or another where he fell from grace. Jesus knew Judas was evil long before the last supper!! What in your mind interprets that to mean Judas was saved?
Yes we judge by what we see, but also what we know. Our eyes can be easily deceived. You can have a lost person sitting next to you at church and you might not even notice if you judged by sight.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 3, 2004.
I believe it is you that needs to reread the parable of the sower. The farmer sows the seed(word of God), onto 4 different landscapes : on a path, in a rocky area, among thorns, in good soil. 4 different kind of hearts are represented. Along the path, Birds (satan) steal the sown seed. The word never had a chance to take root. The path was exposed from the beginning.
In the rocky place, the crop rises quickly but dies when the sun(tribulation) scorches it. The crop is doomed from the beginning.
The seed that is sown among thorns(deceit/worry) grows but is choked and does not bear grain. It was perished from the start.
Finally, the seed that is sown in good soil grows to produce a crop that multiplies.
So, which path abides in Christ? The good soil. He hears the word(sown), he accepts it (takes root), and finally produces(love and obedience). Kevin, you'd have us believe that all 4 paths are referring to christians, and that only one doesn't fall from grace. You are mistaken. The other 3 paths were doomed from the beginning,, "for Christ had known from the beginning who would betray him" and only the Good soil represents a Christian. The others were just pretenders at best.
You conveniantly skipped the nice middle of this section. Remember that Jesus is speaking to the LOST, not to the found, so telling a parable about fallen Christians would be even more meaningless. They couldn't even understand this parable. He told his disciples "the secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But those on the outside is said in parables..."
Christ is not telling a parable about an eternal security issue. He is speaking about what it is to truly be in Christ. Those who are truly in him hear, accept, and produce.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 3, 2004.
Luke, It is obvious that you are NOT going to believe me whatever I tell you as evidenced by your reply to my post. Claiming that Judas was not saved when he was an apostle is just NOT what the word of God states.
You also do NOT understand what the parable of the sower means as evidenced by your reply. Please explain to me Luke what happens when a SEED is planted in the ground??? Let's take a look at corn for example. What happens after the corn seed is planted???
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 4, 2004.
Readers please note that Kevin still has NOT shown anything to support his claim that Judas was saved. Please note that Kevin believes the word of God states that Judas was saved as an apostle, but still has NOT shown where this is stated. Kevin you are adding your own words and meanings into scripture. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 4, 2004.
Kevin says, "Please explain to me Luke what happens when a SEED is planted in the ground??? Let's take a look at corn for example. What happens after the corn seed is planted???" Ok kevin let's play your game. What happens after the corn seed is planted? Well it depends on where it is planted. If a corn seed is planted along a path, the birds will eat it up. If it is planted among rocks, it will not take root. If it is planted among thorns, whatever small and worthless stalk will be choked. If it is planted in a field of good soil it will produce good crop. Kevin stop me when all of this sounds familiar.
Do you believe the word "sown" as in the seed is sown , to mean that word of God lives in that person? This is not true. Let's take the example of the seed on the path..
The seed is sown(planted) along a path. This does NOT mean that the word has been accepted, but only that a seed has been planted. A person does NOT become a christian simply by hearing the word.
"The word of the Lord does not return void." A seed is planted everytime a sinner hears the word,, weather he accepts it as truth or not! If he does not accept it, it is because satan has stolen it!
Kevin, you've posted numerously what you believe is required for a person to be saved: One must hear the word (seed is planted), One must believe (seed is accepted), one must repent, confess, and be baptized (seed produces good grain in obedience). Do you agree that this is what is necessary to be saved? You should because you've posted it many times.
So if you are right about what it is to be saved, and if you are also correct about the 4 landscapes to represent christians and not sinners, then each of the lands should fulfill the parts of salvation.
Can we say that the seed along the path did all of the following? : hear, accept and produce good grain. No, no we cannot. Therefore, this example cannot be referring to Christians as you claim.
Can we say that the seed in the rocky path did all of the following? hear, accept and produce good grain. No, no we cannot. Therefore, this example also cannot be in reference to a Christian.
Can we say that the seed among thorns did all of the following? hear, accept, and produce good grain. No, no we cannot. Therefore again, this illustration fails to represent a Christian.
The only situation that is an analogy to a christian is the good soil. The seed planted here does hear, does accept, and does produce good grain. Therefore, it is the only one (by your OWN definition) that can be classified as a christian.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 5, 2004.
"Once again, you do err not knowing the truth. Here are some things a Child of God can do: Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13; Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17; Err from the truth - James 5:19-20; A Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11; Fall into condemnation - James 5:12; Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23; Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1; Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12; Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27; Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14. So, your statement we cannot lose salvation is NOT true!!!
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 23, 2003."
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
Luke,We can go back and forth, and you will continue to believe that Judas was NOT saved, and I will continue to believe that Judas WAS saved. I could come back at you but this is really NOT worth arguing about so, I will drop this subject.
I will NOT concede the fact that in the parable of the sower that ONLY those who have good and honest hearts are Christians.
Let's take a look at this verse by verse.
First Luke 8:12 which states, "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."
I agree that those who ONLY hear are NOT saved for this is the "faith only" crowd.
Second, Luke 8:13 which states, "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
Please notice this verse states that they "believe for a while", then they "fall away". What do they "fall away" from??? How someone can "fall away" from someplace they have never been???
Jesus said in John 15:6, "If anyone does not ABIDE IN ME, he is CAST OUT AS A BRANCH AND IS WITHERED; and they gather them and THROW THEM INTO THE FIRE, and THEY ARE BURNED."
Such is the FATE of those who "fall away" for it is obvious that they did NOT "abide" in Jesus.
Third, Luke 8:14 which states, "And the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, GO OUT AND ARE CHOKED WITH CARES, RICHES, and PLEASURES OF LIFE, and BRING NO FRUIT TO MATURITY."
Please notice Luke that these Christians "bring no fruit to maturity". How can someone bring "fruit" if they were never Christians in the first place???
It is IMPOSSIBLE to bear "fruit" if one is NOT a Christian.
Fourth, Luke 8:15 states, "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience."
We both agree and there is NO dispute that these are Christians.
One CANNOT plant the seed (the word of God) and expect the seed to GROW by itself. We must water the seed before it can even begin in its growth. This is TRUE for the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:6, "I PLANTED, Apollos WATERED, but God gave the increase."
You wrote, "The seed is sown(planted) along a path. This does NOT mean that the word has been accepted, but only that a seed has been planted. A person does NOT become a christian simply by hearing the word."
Yes, this is TRUE someone does NOT become a Christian by simply "hearing the word".
You wrote, "The word of the Lord does not return void." A seed is planted everytime a sinner hears the word,, weather he accepts it as truth or not! If he does not accept it, it is because satan has stolen it!"
Yes, and to this I also AGREE for this is what is stated in Luke 8:12.
You wrote, "Kevin, you've posted numerously what you believe is required for a person to be saved: One must hear the word (seed is planted), One must believe (seed is accepted), one must repent, confess, and be baptized (seed produces good grain in obedience). Do you agree that this is what is necessary to be saved? You should because you've posted it many times."
Yes, I agree with what I have posted. Do you agree with what I have posted one MUST do in order to be saved?
You wrote, "So if you are right about what it is to be saved, and if you are also correct about the 4 landscapes to represent christians and not sinners, then each of the lands should fulfill the parts of salvation."
Now Luke, you sure are reading quite a bit into the "supposed" 4 landscapes that you describe above. I didn?t say that ALL of them represent Christians and NO, each of these landscapes do NOT "fulfill the parts of salvation". If this is the case, then please explain to me through each verse how one can be said to mean that first one believes, second one repents, third one confesses, fourth one is baptized???
You wrote, "Can we say that the seed along the path did all of the following? : hear, accept and produce good grain. No, no we cannot. Therefore, this example cannot be referring to Christians as you claim."
Does one have to "produce good grain" to become a Christian??? Please show me where this is written???
Jesus said in John 15:2, "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit."
It is IMPOSSIBLE to get "in Christ" (in Me) without obedience to the gospel of Christ. So, it is POSSIBLE to become a Christian and NOT "bear fruit".
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 5, 2004.
May I just comment on the issue of Judas' salvation? Jesus calls Judas 'the son of perdition', and in Phil.1:28 we see that perdition is opposed to salvation. The 'man of sin' is also called the 'son of perdition' in 2nd Thess.2:3.
Acts 1:25 tells us "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." This is clear that Judas now resides 'in his own place', wherever that is. That this cannot be 'in Christ', as the saved are, is evident.
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 6, 2004.
Just a note on ‘apostleship’ Apostle was a title just as disciple is. We know that Jesus chose the 12 disciples out of many disciples just prior to calling them apostles in Luke 6. We also know that the 12 were not saved in Luke 6 for we know from Luke 7 that his disciples and all those that were at the raising of the widow of Nain’s son glorified Jesus as a ‘prophet’ and not as Christ and Messiah. They did not understand Who Jesus was in Luke 8 either when He stilled the wind and the waves, saying “What manner of man is this!” Indeed we know that Peter’s ‘conversion’ did not occur until after the resurrection “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” Luke 22:32
Being called an Apostle was being given a title of ministry, it had no prerequisite of salvation.
-- Gillian Dickenson (Gilliantwin@msn.com), February 6, 2004.
Ok well at least we have some agreeable areas. I'll start at the beginning here, You said, "First Luke 8:12 which states, "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear...I agree that those who ONLY hear are NOT saved for this is the "faith only" crowd."
I don't believe this to be the "faith only" crowd. They have no faith, but have only heard the Word.
You said "Second, Luke 8:13 which states, "But the ones on the rock...Please notice this verse states that they "believe for a while", then they "fall away". What do they "fall away" from??? How someone can "fall away" from someplace they have never been??? "
I believe that these are the "faith only" crowd. They pray what you and I commonly know as the misleading Salvation Prayer. Yeah, maybe they go to church. But they really have no root in Christ. They love him with the, not the heart. Thus, they have nothing to lean on when problems arise. Sure they believed, but they weren't ever Christians. And because they have no Jesus to lean on, they eventually stop pretending to even try. They stop believing that Christ will save them, though in truth, they were never saved in the first place.
You said, "Third, Luke 8:14 which states, "And the ones that fell among thorns are those... Please notice Luke that these Christians "bring no fruit to maturity". How can someone bring "fruit" if they were never Christians in the first place??? It is IMPOSSIBLE to bear "fruit" if one is NOT a Christian. "
You just agreed with me. Was this a typo? It is impossible for someone to bear fruit if they were never Christians. I don't believe this 3rd example is about Christians because it is obvious that they never repented from their sin. You and I both believe that repentence is essential for salvation.
In this category, i'd place Simon the Sorceror. He believed and was baptized, but we know by his actions that he had not repented of his sin. We also know that he wasn't saved because he was one of the first church heretics AFTER the events recorded in Acts.
We both agree about the 4th example. I'm turning to your John reference now,, get back to you.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 8, 2004.
John 15:1-6; All this means is that if we hope to bear works acceptable to God we must live through Christ. A Christian does not lose his salvation, only his rewards in heaven. Read 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 (No! This is not talking about purgatory!). His works done outside of Christ will burn up, and a Christian will lose his reward. -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 8, 2004.
David, what sort of works are acceptable to God that will not "burn" away? Basically, we are left to our own interpretations, preachermen, church committees, and events in life. I am compelled to study the Scriptures for approval of those works, but so do other "leaders" who request work from us. How do we truly know if our works are worthy or necessary?
...............................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 8, 2004.
Here is an extreme example: Remember the guy who killed an abortion doctor? The guy was scheduled for execution for the killing, yet continued to claim that he was saved and was doing good work for God.
The guy believed he was righteous. Can we make any determination of his Salvation? I'm glad that it isn't in my duty to make such a determination.
................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 8, 2004.
rod, Would you please stop with the "special circumstances". A Chrisitan would not murder someone.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 8, 2004.
And according to almost everyone around here, those aborted babies went to heaven. (i dont' believe this) Gee rod, how many ppl have you saved? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), February 8, 2004.
David says: "A Chrisitan would not murder someone."
How can you be sure a Christian would not murder someone? Becoming a Christian does not mean that you will sin no more. Christians are sinful people, and to suggest that there are some sins that a Christian will not commit has no basis in scripture.
You have said before there is no difference between sins, murder and speaking rudely to your mother are both the same in God's eyes. If that's the case, how can you say a Christian can't murder unless Christians are sinless? Are you finally admitting that there are mortal sins?
-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), February 8, 2004.
David, the case that I mentioned is not some make-believe story. It actually happened and the killer actually claimed that he was a Christian doing a duty to God. I'm not making this up. My next question , then, how does one know that he is a Christian and simply not deluding himself? Example: A real person in a real church abstains from dancing because he has been taught that dancing leads to sin. We can add many social activities to this list of "do nots" because thats what the church leaders have decided. We follow them whether true or false, we follow them thinking that we are being "Christian" in doing so. How do we know for sure that we are doing the right thing?
.............................................. .......................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 8, 2004.
"Gee rod, how many ppl have you saved? " David please explain. Do you want me to answer your question?
................................. My answer: I have saved no one. Jesus saves.
......................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 8, 2004.
Luke, I said, "First Luke 8:12 which states, "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear...I agree that those who ONLY hear are NOT saved for this is the "faith only" crowd."
To which you replied, "I don't believe this to be the "faith only" crowd. They have no faith, but have only heard the Word."
Okay, we both agree that these people in this verse are NOT saved.
I wrote, "Second, Luke 8:13 which states, "But the ones on the rock...Please notice this verse states that they "believe for a while", then they "fall away". What do they "fall away" from??? How someone can "fall away" from someplace they have never been??? "
To which you replied, "I believe that these are the "faith only" crowd. They pray what you and I commonly know as the misleading Salvation Prayer. Yeah, maybe they go to church. But they really have no root in Christ. They love him with the, not the heart. Thus, they have nothing to lean on when problems arise. Sure they believed, but they weren't ever Christians. And because they have no Jesus to lean on, they eventually stop pretending to even try. They stop believing that Christ will save them, though in truth, they were never saved in the first place."
Luke, this CANNOT be the "faith only" crowd because they are NOT SAVED to begin with. How can the "faith only" crowd "fall away" from something to which they were NEVER a part of to begin with??? If these people are NOT Christians (and they are NOT), then how do you explain the fact that these BELIEVERS can "fall away" if they were NEVER SAVED in the first place??? If they were never saved in the first place, then they would have NOTHING to "fall away" from. Think about it!
I wrote, "Third, Luke 8:14 which states, "And the ones that fell among thorns are those... Please notice Luke that these Christians "bring no fruit to maturity". How can someone bring "fruit" if they were never Christians in the first place??? It is IMPOSSIBLE to bear "fruit" if one is NOT a Christian."
To which you replied, "You just agreed with me. Was this a typo? It is impossible for someone to bear fruit if they were never Christians. I don't believe this 3rd example is about Christians because it is obvious that they never repented from their sin. You and I both believe that repentence is essential for salvation."
No Luke, I did NOT agree with you. It appears that you are CLAIMING that the "faith only" crowd are Christians and that is IMPOSSIBLE for they CANNOT "bear fruit" if they were NEVER CHRISTIANS TO BEGIN WITH. Only Christians are able to "bear fruit" and this verse PROVES without a doubt that it IS POSSIBLE for someone to become a Christian and "fall away" from the faith. Please explain to me how you can TELL that it is "obvious that they never repented of their sin". Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian to SIN after they have obeyed the gospel??? If this is the case, then it is POSSIBLE for one to "fall away" from Christ.
If the "once saved always saved" doctrine is true, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to have his or her name taken out of the Book of Life, which is where the names of faithful Christians are written (Philippians 4:3). In order to enter into Heaven, one's name MUST BE WRITTEN in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27). If one's name is NOT in the Book of Life, then he or she will spend an eternity in Hell (Revelation 20:15).
You wrote, "In this category, i'd place Simon the Sorceror. He believed and was baptized, but we know by his actions that he had not repented of his sin. We also know that he wasn't saved because he was one of the first church heretics AFTER the events recorded in Acts."
No Luke, Simon the Socerer WAS SAVED for he had OBEYED THE GOSPEL as evidenced by his being baptized INTO CHRIST. (Acts 8:13). Simon CLEARLY showed his REPENTANCE in Acts 8:24 when he asked Peter to pray for him, "Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me." Do you think that Peter did in fact "pray" for Simon??? Of course he did and his sin (Simon's) was forgiven for this is what is written in James 5:13-16.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 9, 2004.
Kevin, I don't believe "faith only" people are saved. Accepting the Gospel as truth isn't enough. You agreed that these people are not Christians, but then you ask me how can they fall away from something they've never been a part of. Kevin, the faith only crowd don't fall from salvation. They were never saved. What they fall from is their "presentable christianity" that which they've maintained. Luke writes that they stop believing. Kevin, when have you ever said that belief only is enough to enter into the Kingdom? You never have. These folks have their "faith" with nothing to show for it. James- "Can such a faith save you?"
Kevin, again I say that it is impossible for a non-christian to bear fruit. You misunderstood me. Because the 3rd example(seed among thorns) says that they do NOT bear fruit, I conclude that this 3rd group is NOT Christian. Bear fruit = Christian. No fruit= not christian. My question is why do YOU believe that they are christians who don't produce good grain?
Why do I believe that they never repented? Look at where the seed was sown. Among thorns. Anyone who has ever planted grass knows that first you have to pull the weeds out, remove rocks and other obstructions BEFORE spreading lawn seed. Now, I understand that nobody is perfect when they come to the Lord, but notice that of each of the "failed" crops, all three of them failed because something in the beginning. All three were doomed from the beginning because they still possesed the harmful nature.
I agree that a person's name must be written into the book of Life in order to be saved.
You need to read up on church history. Simon tried to spread corruption in the early church. Sure he believed and was baptized, because that is what everyone else was doing. He was the most awed person until Philip came. Notice Simon followed Philip because of the miracles Philip was performing. Then he tries to bribe the apostles so that he may perform those same signs. Simon never stopped thinking about his own personal gain. He had the status and lost it. So immediately he turns to the source that pulled his audience away from him so that he might learn how to amaze the people once again. You say of course Peter prayed for Simon's sin to be forgiven. Well the bible never records him praying. But even if Peter had, Simon later became a heretic so a lot of good it did.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 10, 2004.
Luke, I was glad to hear you say, "I don't believe "faith only" people are saved."
To which I say AMEN and AMEN.
You wrote, "Accepting the Gospel as truth isn't enough. You agreed that these people are not Christians, but then you ask me how can they fall away from something they've never been a part of. Kevin, the faith only crowd don't fall from salvation. They were never saved. What they fall from is their "presentable christianity" that which they've maintained."
Where did you get the silly idea that people fall from "presentable christianity"??? Yes, the faith only crowd were "never saved" and since this is the case, then they CANNOT FALL from someplace that they have never been. If they were NEVER Christians in the first place, then they CANNOT FALL if they were never saved to begin with.
You wrote, "Luke writes that they stop believing. Kevin, when have you ever said that belief only is enough to enter into the Kingdom? You never have. These folks have their "faith" with nothing to show for it. James- "Can such a faith save you?"
I have NEVER said that "belief only" is enough to "enter the Kingdom" for that is NOT what the word of God teaches.
You wrote, "Kevin, again I say that it is impossible for a non-christian to bear fruit. You misunderstood me."
But yet you say that these "non-christians" can FALL from someplace that they have NEVER been???
You wrote, "Because the 3rd example(seed among thorns) says that they do NOT bear fruit, I conclude that this 3rd group is NOT Christian. Bear fruit = Christian. No fruit= not christian. My question is why do YOU believe that they are christians who don't produce good grain?"
Since it is IMPOSSIBLE for a "non-Christian" to bear "fruit", then in this example (Luke 8:14) which states, "And the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, GO OUT AND ARE CHOKED WITH CARES, RICHES, and PLEASURES OF LIFE, and BRING NO FRUIT TO MATURITY." one MUST BE A CHRISTIAN for they did bring forth some "fruit". I believe that there are Christians who "don't produce good grain" because it is POSSIBLE for one to become a Christian and FALL AWAY from the faith.
You wrote, I agree that a person's name must be written into the book of Life in order to be saved.
Is it POSSIBLE for someone to have their name BLOTTED OUT from the book of Life??? Please comment on this in your next reply. If it is POSSIBLE for someone to have their name BLOTTED OUT, then it is POSSIBLE for a CHRISTIAN to be LOST. A non-Christian CANNOT have their names WRITTEN in the book of Life to begin with.
What happens to a Christian who sins and will not repent of and confess his or her sins, what then? Are you going to say that "this person was never really a Christian to begin with"??? So does this mean that we CANNOT be called a TRUE Christian until after we die??? According to your logic, that is the ONLY way to know a TRUE Christian.
The apostle James stated that one could WANDER FROM THE TRUTH, "Brethren, if anyone among you WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH, and SOMEONE TURNS HIM BACK, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH and COVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS." (James 5:19-20).
Why do you continue to ignore the clear teaching of God's Word, which says that a Christian can so conduct himself as to be "estranged from Christ" and "fallen from grace"??? (Galatians 5:4).
Over and over again, the Bible teaches that a child of God can FALL from grace. Those who erroneously cling to the "OSAS" doctrine CONTRADICT the Bible in many different places. One example is found in Hebrews 6:4-6, which states, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."
There is nothing that would cause anyone to think these people are not Christians. Under the circumstances associated with their FALL, the word of God makes it clear that it is impossible "to renew them again to repentance," even though they were "once enlightened" and had "tasted the heavenly gift," and had become "partakers of the Holy Spirit." Notice the word "again", they could not be renewed AGAIN to repentance, which means they had repented at one time. So, these are Christians who FALL AWAY.
You can be assured Luke that if Simon asked Peter to pray for him that he did indeed do the very thing that he was asked to do.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 10, 2004.
I don't place bet's on the unrecorded bible. But oh well, I'm done with this. I've made up my mind. However, I still don't believe that Judas was ever saved, and I don't believe Jesus was speaking about OSAS in the parable we've been discussing. Oh btw, Luke writes "bring no fruit to maturity" and Mark writes "bear no fruit." So I don't agree with you that they do bear some fruit. It's strange that this is the only place I defend what I don't believe in. I just want to be fully convinced. It seems though, that in my whole year of being saved, I still haven't figured everything out yet. ;-)
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 11, 2004.
Luke, You wrote, "I don't place bet's on the unrecorded bible."
But do you place bet's on untrustworthy history??? You sure did quote it when trying to prove that Simon was a heretic.
You wrote, "But oh well, I'm done with this. I've made up my mind."
I knew your mind was made up when we began this discussion and I tried to do what I could to change it. Please don't get into the trap that says "my mind is made up and I will never change it" because when someone has shown you a doctrine you believe to be correct is NOT in accordance with the word of God, then you need to CHANGE YOUR MIND and CONFORM to God's word.
You wrote, "However, I still don't believe that Judas was ever saved,"
That is your opinion, and of course you are entitled to it. I do believe that Judas was saved and LOST his salvation when he killed himself.
You wrote, "and I don't believe Jesus was speaking about OSAS in the parable we've been discussing. Oh btw, Luke writes "bring no fruit to maturity" and Mark writes "bear no fruit." So I don't agree with you that they do bear some fruit."
You believe that the ONLY Christians were those who as stated in Luke 8:15. That CANNOT be true for non-Christians CANNOT bear any type of fruit and in Luke 8:14 these people bring "no fruit to maturity". By the way, the passage in Mark 4:19 states that they become "unfruitful" not "bear no fruit" as you state above. Please look at this verse again. How can a non-Christian become "unfruitful" when they NEVER bore any fruit to begin with???
You said that you would "get back to me" on the reference I quoted you in the book of John but you never bothered to respond. Is this because your mind was already made up Luke?
You wrote, "It's strange that this is the only place I defend what I don't believe in. I just want to be fully convinced."
Yes, we are to DEFEND our beliefs and if they are found to be wrong, then we need to change them.
You wrote, "It seems though, that in my whole year of being saved, I still haven't figured everything out yet. ;-)"
I haven't figured everything out either Luke and I am still learning. When we quit learning, then we will quit growing and we will stop producing fruit. If we quit producing fruit, then we will be cast out, withered and burned.
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 11, 2004.
Gah! Kevin. Wake up and smell the roses. I'm AGREEING with you! When I say I've made up my mind, it means I have arrived at a decision. I have NOT been closed minded upon ANY subject in this entire forum, except that which plainly has NO biblical basis. If you took time to read my posts, you'd notice my conversation with David that I'm simply trying to discover truth, not bash anyone's faith. If you cannot see this, then I would suggest that it is your mind that is closed, not mine. Yes I believe church history. This is recorded, though I also know it can be biased. Your "you can be sure he did" is based on what?
Kevin, I quoted directly from Mark and it states plainly (I am looking at it right now) "they did not bear grain" and then later "making it unfruitful." Guess what? They mean the same thing. A vine that is unfruitful does NOT produce ANY fruit, for this is the exact meaning of unfruitful. Only one example Jesus gave produced grain and that was the last one, the good soil. Not a single other one produced any fruit/grain/corn.
I told you I'd get back to you on the John reference (before I had commited one way or the other), so now I will get back to you. Obviously you didn't interpret my last post correctly, so now I will state this plainly. Even someone who I would define "christian" can turn away from the truth by his OWN desire.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.
Luke, You wrote, "Gah! Kevin. Wake up and smell the roses. I'm AGREEING with you! When I say I've made up my mind, it means I have arrived at a decision. I have NOT been closed minded upon ANY subject in this entire forum, except that which plainly has NO biblical basis."
Amen.
You wrote, "If you took time to read my posts, you'd notice my conversation with David that I'm simply trying to discover truth, not bash anyone's faith. If you cannot see this, then I would suggest that it is your mind that is closed, not mine."
When you said that you had "made up your mind" I came to the conclusion (obviously erroneous) that you would NOT change your mind no matter what evidence was presented to you. Please forgive my misreading of your words. No, my mind is not closed and if someone can show me the "error of my ways", I will be quick to change my beliefs on any given subject.
You wrote, "Yes I believe church history. This is recorded, though I also know it can be biased. Your "you can be sure he did" is based on what?"
Based on the very fact that Simon asked Peter to pray for him. Do you think that Peter would have refused to pray for the very thing in which Simon asked him to do???
You wrote, "Kevin, I quoted directly from Mark and it states plainly (I am looking at it right now) "they did not bear grain" and then later "making it unfruitful." Guess what? They mean the same thing. A vine that is unfruitful does NOT produce ANY fruit, for this is the exact meaning of unfruitful. Only one example Jesus gave produced grain and that was the last one, the good soil. Not a single other one produced any fruit/grain/corn."
It appears that you are using the NIV am I correct? I would caution you about using this version of the Bible. I am not going to get into another discussion with you concerning the subject concerning the parable of the sower as it appears that no matter what I say you are not going to change your mind, so I will drop the subject.
You wrote, "Even someone who I would define "christian" can turn away from the truth by his OWN desire."
To this I say Amen and Amen. If this is the case, (and it is) then one CANNOT be "Once Saved Always Saved".
-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), February 13, 2004.
Kevin, I use any version except TLB, The Message, and NAS. -- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 13, 2004.
continued from "Why I reject the Amillennial view" "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." - Hebrews 6
What I meant was, to fall out of the blood of Jesus then try to be recovered is saying that his blood simply wasn’t good enough the first time. Salvation is such a precious gift. I believe it is offered one time, not “in and out and in and out” kind of nonsense.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 24, 2004.
Luke, why did you drop you change your mind on what people call "OSAS"?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 20, 2004.
See the verses I posted here
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.
Emily,Would you please post those verses there. That other thread got off topic.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004.
God warns us to continue following Him, as seen in the passages below. Such warnings would be unnecessary if our salvation could not be lost.I included the passages below in KJV, and I will put this in several posts so I don't make one long post since you said that's bad.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
2 Peter 2
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2 Peter 2
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.
2 Peter 3
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Hebrews 3
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
1 Corinthians 9
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.
1 Corinthians 15
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Colossians 1
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Hebrews 2
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
2 Peter 1
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.
Can a Christian lose salvation? Romans 8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13: For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall LIVE.
-- ChristianSoldier (mailboxz@wmconnect.com), June 27, 2004.
We just cant ignore these verses....Hebrews 10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
-- ChristianSoldier (mailboxz@wmconnect.com), June 27, 2004.
Paul,Is that you?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 27, 2004.
There is warning of teachers that will change grace into something that its not. Jude:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who CHANGE THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENES FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
-- ChristianSoldier (mailboxz@wmconnect.com), June 27, 2004.
Dave,I remember ChristianSoldier from the Catholic forum. If its the same CS, he's very Sola Scriptura. Also, he isn't Paul.
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), June 28, 2004.
Jim,No he isn't Paul Vee. I've contacted this CS and they are not the same person.
I don't know what happen to Paul, last I heard from him he was moving somewhere. I've tried emailing him but his email account is full and inactive.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.
Well, I dunno if that's his real name. The CS from the Catholic forum that is. The emails I have from him have that was the name. But he was really into Harold Camping, and always told me to visit Camping's site. Now that I remember, I think CS was a Calvinist. He talked about Predestination Alot.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), June 29, 2004.
Can any one tell me what is ment by this scripture?Matthew 5:20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case ENTER into the kingdom of heaven.
-- ChristianSoldier (mailboxz@wmconnect.com), June 29, 2004.
Seems to me be saying that we must be righteous in order to enter into heaven and spend eternity with God.
-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 29, 2004.
AMEN! 8 )
-- ChristianSoldier (mailboxz@wmconnect.com), June 30, 2004.