"Third, according to Peter’s rehearsal of these events, which is more chronological than is Luke’s original record (cf. 11:4), the Spirit fell upon Cornelius just as the apostle “began to speak” (11:15), and therefore, before this Gentile even heard the message, hence, before he had faith (cf. Rom. 10:17). If the argument mentioned above is valid, then Cornelius was saved without faith – which is quite unreasonable." (http://www.christiancourier.com/notes/corneliusBaptism.htm)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 27, 2004

Answers

Acts 10:34-48 Gentiles Hear Good News

34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Scriptures speak for themselves, IN context. Cornelius did hear the gospel.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 27, 2004.

And notice that they all received the Holy Spirit before the water ceremony. That is the true saving baptism....

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.

Cornelius might have heard the gospel, but I don't see anything there about him believeing it.

A lot of people hear the gospel but don't have faith. Acts only says that Cornelius "was a devout man who feared God" and gave alms before he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Does this mean that even those who haven't heard of Christ can be saved if they fear God and do what is right as they understand God to command it?

-- anon (anon@anon.anon), April 28, 2004.

Then Peter began to speak to them: "I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Does this mean that even those who haven't heard of Christ can be saved if they fear God and do what is right as they understand God to command it?

-- anon (anon@anon.anon), April 28, 2004.

I guess I'm confused Faith. If the baptism Cornelius and his household received was the true saving baptism, then we are about to go on a ride.

If this baptism is the true saving baptism, then the people of Samaria were not saved until the apostles came and layed hands upon them.

If this baptism is the true saving baptism, then the disciple of John were not saved until Paul layed hands upon them.

What is interesting is that in your true saving baptism, everyone speaks in tongues. Does that mean I'm not saved if I don't posess this gift? Can you show me Faith, an example of your true saving baptism that did not manifest itself with the speaking of tongues?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.

The true baptism is the rebirth one experiences when he places His faith in Christ and receives the Holy Spirit.

It is faith that saves....

-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.

You still didn't answer my question. Is there one example of your true baptism that did not cause those baptized to speak in tongues? How many baptisms did John's disciples receive in Acts 19? Was your true baptism when Paul baptized them or when he layed hands upon them? Or maybe during these 2 events they received your true baptism.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 30, 2004.

Also, please explain how your true baptism (rebirth one experiences when he places His faith in Christ and receives the Holy Spirit) is likened to the burial baptism of Romans 6.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 30, 2004.

Every time someone accepts by faith--Jesus Christ into their hearts-- they are born again by the washing and renewal of the Word in their lives. At that moment they are buried to sin--and born again--raised to new life. It is a spiritual truth.

The kingdom of heaven continues to grow bigger and bigger with every added believer. The water ritual is simply symbolic of this spiritual truth and has no saving power in itself--the saving factor is the faith that took place beforehand. It is that saving moment that the water ritual represents.

If baptism in itself were the saving factor--we could just throw people into water and build Christ's church just by baptising everyone we could lay our hands on. But it doesn't work that way. We are saved by faith, not baptism.., and a spiritual baptism takes place the moment we believe and the Holy Spirit descends upon us just as it did at pentecost.

I believe that their are different gifts for different people that we receive the moment we are born again. Speaking in tongues is just one of them. I also believe that every true believer can speak in tongues if they really wanted to. Many people do not even know what spiritual gifts they have.....

John 3:5-18

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-- the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 01, 2004.

Faith,

The answer is in the verse you posted: no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit

The "water" is baptism!

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.

But it doesn't mean the ritual that we perform.., it means the rebirth we experience when we are born-again. It is spiritual...the water represents the cleansing rebirth action of the Holy Spirit..

The next verse explains that the flesh gives birth to flesh--- but the Spirit gives birth to spirit....

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 01, 2004.

The Spirit give birth to life. The flesh is nothing, but a container for our Spirit--life.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.

rod...your post has nothing to do with the thread..

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 01, 2004.

Faith,

It is useless getting into a discussion on the John 3:5 passage in this thread, Roman Catholics will ignore anything we say and COCers just insert meaning into any text. They will not stay in the context of the passages period.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Not stay in context??!! lol. David seriously now, it is the rejection of context in which baptism is thrown out by churches such as yours and Faith's.

Faith, you still have no clue as to baptism, as is evidenced by this statement :

"If baptism in itself were the saving factor--we could just throw people into water and build Christ's church just by baptising everyone we could lay our hands on."

Why not say everyone who has ever been swimming has been baptized and is saved?? This is absurd. The word is very clear about the purpose of baptism, and yes WATER.

"The water ritual is simply symbolic of this spiritual truth and has no saving power in itself--the saving factor is the faith that took place beforehand. It is that saving moment that the water ritual represents. "

Baptism isn't a ritual first off. Maybe your church has turned it into one. Yes it is symbolic of a spiritual truth, and it does not have saving power in itself. But, like you said, when one has faith before hand, and THEN is baptized IN WATER, we see baptism DOES save. A person already saved has NO reason to be baptized. Baptism comes before salvation, after one believes that Jesus is the truth.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.

Luke,

I challenge you to try and prove that John 3:5 is talking about water baptism, WITHOUT inserting meanings from other verses into the verse. You can't do it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Example of what I mean by inserting meanings into verses;

"Luke 8:11 says that "the Seed is the word of God." And Jesus also says in Matt 15:13 "Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted."

The Bible says in John 3:5 "?Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus was trying to explain to Nicodemus that in order to enter the kingdom of God, one had to be born again (A spiritual birth and not a physical birth) by WATER and the SPIRIT (which is the Word of God) in order to enter the kingdom. Water = Baptism; Spirit = God's Word; See the following passages: 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Corinthians 4:15, Ephesians 6:17.

Now we know what water is referring to in this passage, Water of course, but what does "born of the Spirit mean?" Look at James 1:18 and compare with James 1:21. This most certainly says that the IMPLANTED WORD is able to SAVE our souls. 1 Peter 1:23 says, "having been BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible SEED but incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD which lives and abides forever," This says that we are born again BY incorruptible seed THROUGH the word of God. Paul agrees with this in 1 Cor. 4:15. The Bible in Ephesians 6:17 makes a statement that "the sword of the SPIRIT, which is the WORD OF GOD." So, all of these passages agree that to be "born of the Spirit", means that we are "BORN AGAIN THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD".

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), July 21, 2003."

Not once do you find Kevin accually go through the context of John 3:5

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Luke,

If Jesus meant baptism, why did He say that "that whosoever BELIEVETH on Him should have Eternal Life?". So many verses leave out water baptism as a condition. More than 60 compared to your 10 verses (some taken out of context)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Baptism is done as a testimony to Jesus. Even Jesus was baptised--and certainly he wasn't baptised to be saved. He was baptised for the same reason we are--to testify....

Even the repentant sinner who was crucified with Jesus was saved--yet he was never baptised.., nor were scores of Old Testament believers....though they were indeed all baptised in spirit by their faith. They were all born-again and baptised in spirit., by the Spirit.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 01, 2004.

You're right David, many verses leave out baptism. And some leave out believing. Some leave out both! So the question is, are we saved by one verse or by the entire gospel? I'll show you that "water" in John 3 is baptism, but I'm off to work.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.

Luke,

I know what John 3:5 means, I just reject your inserted meaning of it. We are saved by the gospel, which leaves out baptism also.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

David,

If John 3:5 is NOT literal WATER, then what is it???

Why did John (the baptist) baptized in WATER if there is NO need for it???

Why did Jesus disciples baptize in Water if there is No need for it???

If one is saved BEFORE they are baptized in Water, then there one can go to heaven without be baptized in Water according to your doctrine for if they die on the way to their baptism then according to you they are still saved. If this is the case, then there is NO need for one to be baptized at all.

With this FALSE logic, the case can be made that Repentance is not necessary, Confession is not necessary etc...

ALL of these are required for salvation, Faith, Repentance, Confession AND yes, Baptism before one can be saved.

If Jesus did NOT mean literal water, then what did He mean in John 3:5.

Obviously the Ethiopian Eunuch UNDERSTOOD that water means LITERAL water and Philip most certainly told him that he MUST be "born of water" in order to enter the kingdom when he asked the question in Acts 8:36, "See here is water; What hinders me from being baptized?"

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), May 02, 2004.

The ethiopian eunich's sory, form acts chapter 8.

26. And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27. And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28. Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29. Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30. And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31. And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35. Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 03, 2004.

Ok, i've tried this before, but last time I ended up changing the whole thread.

Jesus' words of John 3

His first comment will be in regular text, and his response i'll italicize.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee...verily, verily, I say unto thee

Except a man be born again...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit

he cannot see the kingdom of God... he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So basically Jesus repeated the same thing. born again= born of water and spirit.

If born of water refers to natural childbirth, then we can see Nicodemus' confusion was justified, because a MAN cannot enter into the womb again, and yet Jesus is telling us that a MAN must be born of water and of spirit. Notice the timing. Jesus didn't say "unless a man was born of water born again of spirit," he expressly stated that a man, which we know to be referring to a matured adult, must be born (not was born) of water And of spirit, and this is called being reborn.

Reborn != born of Spirit

Reborn != born of water

Reborn = born of water and spirit

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 12, 2004.

!= should appear as an "not equal to" sign. it looks fine as i type it, but it was changed.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 12, 2004.

How friendly is this site to my special characters?

åß?Ҙǯ„‡°·2¢¢•£º¬…>=µƒ´••••••••••

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 12, 2004.

Luke, good point.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 12, 2004.

I agree with Emily, Luke.

Yours is the best explanation I have seen with regard Jesus and Nicodemus dialogue.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Kevin, if water baptism was essential for salvation, why did Jesus stressed the Holy Spirit as guiding the Church?

This happened in Pentecost. This happened again during the time Peter went to see the Gentiles.

Even Peter and John have to visit the samaritans because they had only been baptized in water to pray for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "Kevin, if water baptism was essential for salvation, why did Jesus stressed the Holy Spirit as guiding the Church?"

I think you are misunderstanding the gifts of the Holy Spirit which were for confirming the word (Mark 16:20), and how the Holy Spirit guided the church into all truth. (John 16:13). The word was CONFIRMED because we now have the WRITTEN New Testament and since this has been CONFIRMED, we the church (which is the people and not some institution) are GUIDED into ALL TRUTH by the WRITTEN word. (See 2 Tim. 3:16-17). This WRITTEN word will be our STANDARD for JUDGMENT when Jesus returns. (John 12:48, John 20:30-31, Rev. 20:12).

There are no more apostles around to lay hands on someone to receive the Holy Spirit and since the gifts of the Spirit are not available an longer, the only way someone can get the Holy Spirit is THROUGH the word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), May 13, 2004.

I agree with you on that part, Kevin.

But, then, the problem arises: If a person has to wait to be old enough to be baptized in water to understand its meaning, then, those innocent ones who died before don't stand a chance for salvation. This would contradict what Jesus said about little children.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

So then, there has to be another way to prepare children also to face God: Consecration. Exd 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, [both] of man and of beast: it [is] mine.

I think I am the only Christian who does this.

But I also consecrate other males and females, not just firstborn. Of these: 4 mine, 6 nephews, 6 nephews-in-law.

When I talked to death in my dream in October 2002, he said he was taking one of them, and I won't be able to stop it. This happened on November 8, 2002. My father-in-Law had a dream about one of his children having an accident that morning. His grand-daughter,A girl 2 years died instantly.

God even cares about little children, too, Kevin.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 13, 2004.

Elpidio,

Little children have NO sin, so they do NOT need to be baptized. This is why Jesus was able to say, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:16).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), May 15, 2004.

At least we agree on something, Kevin.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.