To Protestants and Catholics: Are JWs and Mormons Christian?

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Hi!

I have not introduced myself although I feel very at home in this forum, and well I'm almost reluctant to receive a "welcome...".

I stumbled on this forum by accident after finding the Vietnamese American Society forum hosted on this same server. This forum has been very helpful to me as of late to explain the faith to my fiance who was baptized and confirmed this past Easter. I find the discussions helpful to elicit questions that are not yet at the tip of the tongue even if there is no immediate need to bring them out...hence I won't ask many questions but will frequent this forum when I need to give myself some cheer.

Years ago, my mother and I had a series of encounters with both the The Watchtower Society and the Latter Day Saints. The former visited first and since she spoke little english, they spoke to me, and of course they had some pamphlets in Vietnamse. Between the two of us, we concluded that they were "protestants". In those days, protestantism was still pretty shocking to us - however, the sheer perverse nature of their persistence really was the kicker. By the way, shutting the door in the face of JW's doesn't stop them from comming. Showing them, the shrine on your fireplace mantle with the crucifix, statue of blessed mother, and various other paintings and pictures of devotion doesn't stop them. You have to tell them, you're calling the cops and if that doesn't stop them...call the cops.

The Mormons came knocking when I was in school. They timed it that way. They gave my mother a Vietnamese version of their Scriptures. She told me after reading some of it, she judged it to be the work of the devil and not exactly forbade me to read it but something close to that with shudders and indignation in between. Then the same went for the JW's that we had previously encountered...concidences or the devil's work had brought a succession of cults to our door we pondered.

Well now years have passed and I've read a little here and there and had more brief encounters with both these groups along the way. My question is this to protestants and catholics:

Do you consider either JWs or Mormons christian?

To me, Mormon theology is fundamentally polytheistic. Their mistranslation of scripture is heretical, really perverse in my view. Their "salvation doctrine" if it can be called such is so far removed from Jesus that they can't claim to be his followers, rather Christ is a name to use as a springboard for what they espouse. As for Jehovah's Witnesses, they're not too far behind. No heaven? No hell? Forget purgatory, if there's no heaven or hell...but I'm not sure about denouncing them as non-christian yet. How do you think?

BTW, if I chime in on things catholic and am wrong, please let me know. I'm often careless, not schismatic.

God bless,

Vincent

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), April 30, 2004

Answers

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Bump

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), April 30, 2004.

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Hello Vincent,

I do not know enough about either of these groups to comment, except to say that most Protestants consider them to be cults. However some Protestants also consider the Catholic Church to be a cult, but I digress... I am not sure whether the Catholic Church would classify them as part of the "separated brethren" category that applies to Protestants. Perhaps a more learned Catholic can inform you about the official Church teaching.

However, I did find some sites that might be helpful:

Catholic Answers: Non- Catholic Groups - this site has a lot of info about both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons

JimmyAkin.com: Quasi-Christian groups - this site also has multiple articles in the JW and M categories

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 30, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Hi Vincent,

Welcome!

I think you have both JW's and Mormon religions pegged correctly. Neither are Christian in my estimation. From what I know about both religions, neither accept Jesus Christ as truly God and truly Man. They both relegate Him to a being created by God. To me, one of the hallmarks of a real Christian is accepting Christ as God and Savior.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 30, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

im glad you feel so comfortable here, vincent, and i certainly hope you will post any questions you have. And don't worry about being off on a few things, we all are at one point or another, and it'll get corrected pretty quickly.

from my perspective i dont consider mormons or JW's to be christian. for information purposes, JW's dont generally believe that Christ was divine, they think of Him as a blessed man, or prophet (making them jews :) ) mormons believe in polytheism, that is, good believers will become gods of their own little world, although God is still supreme God. This makes them looney, in my opinion, and also not christian, since they have some fundamental beliefs that i won't go into that, in my mind, disqualify them from the christian pool.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 01, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Their are two groups of Mormons. The Chruch of Jesus christ of Latter day Saints beelives in humans being "gods in embryo", thus, if one lives in acordance ot he Goel, one can reach the highest estate and be deified.

The Reorginised chruch, now known as the Community of Christ, beleives Jesus is God incarnate, and in the trinity. They also reject the dea that men become gods.

The latter, I htink, can be classified as a fringe group of Chrisains. Indeed, in the broadest definition, in accepting Jesus as the messiah, bith mromon brancjes can eb clased as Chrisyains, but in general the Latter Day Saint branch is not classed as Chrisyain for reaosns alreay dscussed, their Polyheism and beleif in deificaiton of dead Mormons.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 01, 2004.



Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Thank you all for replying. I kind of blundered posting this thread the night before having all 4 wisdom teeth extracted. Recovery is going well despite being past the optimum age.

I asked the question since I have a lot of contact with liberal christians, atheists, and agnostics. These groups define christianity very loosely. While I do read from both protestant and catholic sites regarding this subject, your answers are strong reinforcements. Emily, catholic.com is one of my favorites, etwn and ewtn.com is nice(My favorite is watching father Corapi), and newadvent.com is wonderful, especially translations of early church writings:) Zarove, thanks for the Community of Christ info :)

God Bless,

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

...Also Emily, the second link you gave me is active but it has alot of dead links.

God Bless,

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

As far as I know the Catholic Church has no "official" position on which groups are Christian and which are not. So I guess we also "define Christianity very loosely".

We pray on Good Friday for "all who call on the name of Jesus". This would include not only Mormons and JWs but even Muslims who honour Jesus as a divinely inspired prophet.

The Catholic position is that the Catholic Church has the fullness of divine revelation. Other churches and religions have part of the truth. Some have much more of it than others, but it does not set a sharp dividing line between those who are "in" as "Christians" and those who are out.

Personally I would not use the term Christian to describe the Mormons and JWs. I think the World Council of Churches definition of a Christian as someone who "believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the one lord and saviour of the world" is pretty good.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

"Personally I would not use the term Christian to describe the Mormons and JWs. I think the World Council of Churches definition of a Christian as someone who "believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the one lord and saviour of the world" is pretty good. "-ZAROVE

Then why do you excluse Mormons? Mormons beleive Jesus of nazareth is one Lord, and Saviour of the world.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

I bow to your greater knowledge if you know more about them, but the Mormons round here, though they emphasize Jesus in their initial proselytising, teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are just three of many gods. I haven't heard of the organisation called the "Community of Christ".

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Again, just tryign tomake clear the distinctions.

They are all mormons, bu have radiclaly different beleifs.

The ones you talk of are the most promenent, the "Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints." However, even they claim Jesus is the Messiah and saviour, but you sre correct that he is a seperate personage than God the Father , in their theology at leats.

But their ae approximately 200 branches of Mormonism, and many do not hold the teachigns of Brigham Young in high esteem, where his teahcign becamse promemenenrt, even thugh smith himself also taugh this. ( Which later Mormins tried to find a soluiton for.)

The origional 1830 Book of Mormon, for instance, identifies Jesus as God incarnate, as does the 1901 edition put out but eh reorginised branches.

All that aside hwoever, the definiiton you emloyed did nti specify that Jeuss had ot be God incarnate, or that the rleigion had ot be Monotheistic. Jusy accpetign him as Lord and saviour.

many liberal "Chrisains" also belive he was not God incarnate, jst a veey wise man.

Orthodox Chrisinity is defined as a Monotheistic faith that adheres tot he teahcigns of the Gospel of Christ, and teaches that Jesus is the Third person in the Hly trinity.

I think that is a better definition.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 02, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Doesn't more than one god mean more than one "lord of the world"? And isn't Christ the SECOND person of the trinity?

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 03, 2004.

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

I around 15 years ago I heard about JWs and Mormons and I came too know and read a few things about them, which leaves without doubt that they are not all Christians. They come under category of christain cult groups. They deviate from the mainline teachings of the Christainity as outlined in the Apostles Creed.
Some of them as I can remember are as follows:
Christianity-------------Jehovah Witness---------Mormons
There is only 1 God---There is only 1 God----There are many gods.
3 Persons in 1 God----1 person and 1 God------3 different gods
God the Father-------God is Father alone-----Father is one of the gods
Jesus is God--------Not God, but an Angel----Jesus is one of the gods
Holy Spirit is God---Not God, but impersonal energy of God---Holy Spirit is one of the gods
Authority is Church/Bible------Watchtower-------The Book of Mormon
I have a very faint memory about the origins of JW, there is someone called Rutherford, who is responsible either in founding making it the way as it is now. Apart from the above, Jehovah Witness will not sing the national anthem nor salute the national flag. They will not receive blood transfusions even at the point of death. They do not believe in hell, but eternal sleep for those not included in their number of elect, around 144,000. They believe that only they will be counted worthy for resurrection when there will a new earth and a new heaven. They usually stress on the Book of Revelation, the present day world government, etc. Their authority is the Watchtower, which like the Catholic church is the supreme authority regarding interpretation of the Bible and laws. Their #1 target is the Catholics. Rutherford seems have said once to the Catholics something like this, "Look all your people are leaving your churches, so if they don't join us, that alone is great victory for us!" The hatred for the Catholic Church and the Pope, etc is very strong here. Mormonism is founded by someone (I don't remember his name) who had a vision of angel called Moroni who revealed him the Book of Mormons (supposed to be inscribed on golden plates). Hence apart from the Bible, they have the book of Mormons, which is more authoritative and dictates how the Bible should be interpreted. No can interpret the Bible apart from that. The Mormons in their external makeup look like Catholics with lot of adopted catholic traditional and formal prayers, ritual, statues, saints, articles, etc. Every Tom, Dick or Harry is a saint, like George Washington and William Wordsworth, etc. They mix divine, secular things, and silly things like praying for cats, but abruptly moving on and praying to George Washington, then moving thanking God for razor blades or toothpaste sales in USA, etc. Mormons perform baptisms for the death. All the externals are horribly innumerable and confusing. They believe God is not spirit, but as having finite bodies and is not omnipresent or omniscient. They believe that one day they too will become gods. They celebrate mass, but instead of wine they use plain water. They have secret inner circle. Those who are faithful long enough are adopted into the inner circle. Unlike classical Christianity, usually nobody will just go and join a cult, but the cult members go door-to-door recruiting new members. There are thousands of many other Christian cult groups. Since 10-15 years, I have not had interest in these. But at those times from the many ones, the cult groups apart from JW and Mormonism that I remember are Seven Day Adventist, Children of God, Spiritism, Spiritualism, Moonies, the Only Jesus group, Christian Science, Free Masonary, etc. There may thousands more added by this time. We should be aware that all of the cult groups have sprung from breakaway protestants and none from the Catholic church. Catholic church breakaways are always Christian at least principle (reminds of the good tree and bad tree and their fruits). Many protestant groups without their knowing are slowly moving towards such dangerous deviations over a period of time, because of the Sola scripture and acceptance of no sure human authority. Every cult groups are different in some way, but I personally believe, each is doctored in such a way that it suits a certain personality, someone who has some secret hidden situation finds that a certain cult satisfies him like nothing. Each of the use very complex psychological different techniques of holding the people into bondage, which are difficult even for many psychologists to understand. Most of them very dangerous, once you are stuck, it almost forever. A few who have escaped with lot of prayers and help, escaped with lot of damage to mind, relationships and eventual loss of faith in all religions. It is clear there is specific demonic power controlling each, so avoid straight overconfident discussions with such unless moved by God's Spirit Sorry for the way I type. I took me nearly 4 hours to put so much. My memory is bit slow and I am unable to present very systematically. Also, my knowledge is just basic enough to hold to my faith. I know my knowledge is thorough, but bits and pieces here and here, so when I get the opportunity I like to give away. My job is quite hectic so I had to do this on a holiday. Any words of correction or encouragement are welcome.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), May 03, 2004.

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Doesn't more than one god mean more than one "lord of the world"? And isn't Christ the SECOND person of the trinity? -pETER k

Sorry, I meant second. But no, multiple gods does nto eman Multiple lords for this world, God is the God of his world in later Day Saint theology. Bt only in LDS theology, as I said, their are tow main banches. In Comunity of Christ theology, its basiclaly the same as mainstream Chrisainity as far as the Trinity is concerned. As tot he beow list...

Some of them as I can remember are as follows: Christianity-------------Jehovah Witness---------Mormons There is only 1 God---There is only 1 God----There are many gods. Again, this is only LDS theology, not all banches of Mormonism actualy beelie this.

3 Persons in 1 God----1 person and 1 God------3 different gods Again, LDS only.

God the Father-------God is Father alone-----Father is one of the gods

See above.

Jesus is God--------Not God, but an Angel----Jesus is one of the gods See above.

Holy Spirit is God---Not God, but impersonal energy of God---Holy Spirit is one of the gods See above.

Authority is Church/Bible------Watchtower-------The Book of Mormon

This is a half truth. The Mormon Chruch itsself acts as an authority, wiht a Living Prophet, as does the Bible. Mormons do, in fact, use the Bible as an auhtority, and it i aprt pf the standard works. They use the book fo Mormon in supplement to the Bible, as well as Doctorine and covnents. The LDS branch, which seems ot b the one we are discussing in actuality, also uses the Pearl of great price, where RLDS often uses the lectures of faith.

a lot below is also innaccurate. My comments in {} Bracjets.

--------------------------- Mormonism is founded by someone (I don't remember his name) who had a vision of angel called Moroni who revealed him the Book of Mormons (supposed to be inscribed on golden plates).

{Joseph Smith. His first Vision was saidot have been about God the father, and Jesus Christ, when he prayed earnestly as to which Chruch was right, and was old none of them, for theyw ehre all abominairon in the sight of the Lord. Moroni appeared many years later. }-Zarove

Hence apart from the Bible, they have the book of Mormons, which is more authoritative and dictates how the Bible should be interpreted.

{The Book fo Mormon is reputed to be another testement of jesus Christ, and e Hisotry of a groupof Hebrews who left palistine and setled in the New wolrd. It is NOT used to Interpret the Bible, indeed it cannot be used to that effect, since it's people where seperate form the Bilcial people for abut 1000 years. The Book of Mormon is accepted as a Histry of anceitn peoels and supllemental scriptrues, it is not used as a mean to interprett eh Bible.

Liekwise, the Book of Mormon is not sen as More authoritative, but of equel Authority.}-Zarove

No can interpret the Bible apart from that.

{Again, fasle. The Book of Mormon is not desigend to be used a an intrpretation of the Bible, but is, in fact, a seerate volume of Scriptures all on its own. }-Zarove The Mormons in their external makeup look like Catholics with lot of adopted catholic traditional and formal prayers, ritual, statues, saints, articles, etc.

{True.They also adopted much freemasonry.}-Zarove Every Tom, Dick or Harry is a saint, like George Washington and William Wordsworth, etc.

{Only faithful mormons are classified as saints. Just liek Protestnats class all Chrisains as Saints.}-Zarove

They mix divine, secular things, and silly things like praying for cats, but abruptly moving on and praying to George Washington, then moving thanking God for razor blades or toothpaste sales in USA, etc.

{well I have prayed to God to take care of My Cat when I was away... however, everythign here is blatntly false. The Mormon chrch does not teach that oen shoul pray for Cats. Liekweise, he Mormn Chruch does not, nor has it ever, prayed for george washington. We are all, Mormon or not, insructed tot htank God for variosu things, but nothign spacifically Mormon discusses razor bladesor toothpaste. Exactly where did you pull the "Pray to George washington" bit form anyway?}-Zarove

Mormons perform baptisms for the death. All the externals are horribly innumerable and confusing.

{Not relaly that confusing to me, then again, I study religions. If you can Undestand the Cahtolic chruch, yoj can understand the Mormon chruhc, as you said, they have a lot in cmmon as far as heirarcichal struture is concenred. Yes, they Baptise the dead. }-Zarove

They believe God is not spirit, but as having finite bodies and is not omnipresent or omniscient.

{Again, only the LDS branch beleives this, the RLDS branch does not. Liekwise, th LDS DOES in fact, teah that God is Omniceint, even thouh he does have " A body of Flesh and Bone", he is still in possession of all knowledge.}-Zarove

They believe that one day they too will become gods.

{Only LDS beleive this.Not allMormons Universlaly.}-Zarove

They celebrate mass, but instead of wine they use plain water.

{False. They do not celebrate Mass, for one. Their services are more like Protestnat services and ar enot called Mass. Likewise, they use wine, or in some areas Grape Juice, for Communion, not Water.}-Zarove

They have secret inner circle. Those who are faithful long enough are adopted into the inner circle.

{??? where on earht did you cull this? The closes approximation to what you hav said is "Temple worthy", and even that isn't "Secret inner circle".}-Zarove

Unlike classical Christianity, usually nobody will just go and join a cult, but the cult members go door-to-door recruiting new members.

{This is a disparagy. Many Chrisans actually go door to door. Likewise, amny peopel do, in fact, join the Mormon chruhc without beign visited by Missionaries first.}-Zarove

There are thousands of many other Christian cult groups. Since 10-15 years, I have not had interest in these. But at those times from the many ones, the cult groups apart from JW and Mormonism that I remember are Seven Day Adventist, Children of God, Spiritism, Spiritualism, Moonies, the Only Jesus group, Christian Science, Free Masonary, etc. There may thousands more added by this time. We should be aware that all of the cult groups have sprung from breakaway protestants and none from the Catholic church.

{Seventh Day Adventists are a cult? Also, the Cahtlic chruch has had is own share of breakaway firnge groups...as you said,the Mormosn adopted a lot of Cahtlic Sructure, adn arnt purely based on protestantism.}-Zarove

Catholic church breakaways are always Christian at least principle (reminds of the good tree and bad tree and their fruits).

{Actually many breakoffs have had their own, bizzarre beleifs.}-Zarove

Many protestant groups without their knowing are slowly moving towards such dangerous deviations over a period of time, because of the Sola scripture and acceptance of no sure human authority.

{Uhm...Protestnatimsm leads to Polytheism an oprying to george Washington? I am sorry, this is patently absurd. You may disagree with soa Scriptura, but you cannot say that this belef inevitabley elads tot he creation of a cult. Least of all can you claim this withthe Momons, whom you claim dont en use the bible as an authority, and who in reality use their chruch and its suppsoed Livign Prophet as an auhtority.}-Zarove

Every cult groups are different in some way, but I personally believe, each is doctored in such a way that it suits a certain personality, someone who has some secret hidden situation finds that a certain cult satisfies him like nothing.

{Cults are usually started by peopel who feel a need for power and domination o thier followers lives to feel important. But not all the "Cults" above are based on such, especally the established, older ones. One will find a variety of Mormons or Jeova's witnesses, with radiclaly diffeent personalities.}-Zarove

Each of the use very complex psychological different techniques of holding the people into bondage, which are difficult even for many psychologists to understand.

{What tequniques dot he Mormons use to hold pepel in Bondage? Other than ethical teahcigns whic are a requisite, and ritualism whih is standard in every religion, what mind contrile teqnique is actually found in either the comunity of christ or the chruhcof jesus chrst of Latter day Saints? The reason the Mormons arent classed as a cult by the Govenrment is because they lack such means of controle. Liekwise, o o the Jehova's witnesses.}-Zarove

Most of them very dangerous, once you are stuck, it almost forever.

{I have met peopel who have left the mormon Faith, and, though difficult for them to do so due to family pressures and because most fot heir freinds where Mormon, it was not made so by the Chruhc tsself. Usually a letter is sent tot he home office, and you ask youname removed. Many do not bother with this part, and just stiop attnedign Mormon chruch services.}-Zarove

A few who have escaped with lot of prayers and help, escaped with lot of damage to mind, relationships and eventual loss of faith in all religions.

{The same can be said of ex-Catholics, so one must be careful...}- Zarove.

It is clear there is specific demonic power controlling each, so avoid straight overconfident discussions with such unless moved by God's Spirit Sorry for the way I type.

{I don't relalyt hink you undersand Mormonism hat well. And I do not knwo enouh about Jehova's witneses to comment.}-Zarove

I took me nearly 4 hours to put so much. My memory is bit slow and I am unable to present very systematically.

{Your memory is innaccurate.Sorry.}-Zarove

Also, my knowledge is just basic enough to hold to my faith. I know my knowledge is thorough, but bits and pieces here and here, so when I get the opportunity I like to give away.

{ But a lot of your informaiton is false. IE, " Mormosn Pray to george washington".}-Zarove

My job is quite hectic so I had to do this on a holiday. Any words of correction or encouragement are welcome.

{Thansk, and I took this as literal. Liekwise, i do nto support the Mormon Chruc and think it is wrong, I just don lie misinformation.}- Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 03, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Leslie John, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Zarove, don't be so literal. Give your reader the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps we, too, are able to discern truth from rhetoric and opinion. I surely believe that truth does not always rest on facts. I want to get some opinions, not a lecture or debate. Let me get to know the forumers?

BTW, the CofC does not call itself Mormon. There are only about 250000 members which means they are obscure to most of us. Therefore, when we refer to Mormons, we don't mean them but the 10million who do call themselves Mormons. Is this true or are we being pendantic about semantics?

Here's a real question: The CofC claims In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of Godís love and Christís ministry. taken from their website. How then should catholics proceed with this matter of "public revelation", the Book of Mormon? Are they still Christian as they claim? Your answer may well be different from mine and I can accept that.

God Bless,

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), May 03, 2004.



Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Z, Thank you for educating me on the Mormons and the JW. Another test of Christian is if they can say the apostles creed with a true heart. I do not think any sort of Mormon or JW could. Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), May 03, 2004.

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Thanks Vincent for the support, I hope it helped along with Zarove detailed corrections and comments. That alone is enough. Zarove thanks for being so through with my post in corrections and comments. I see you you are quite thoroughly with the Mormon theology, and as I see, as you say LDS and the present day Mormons two different, but then the LDS remains the original source. Where I tried to speak in generally about cults, you seem disagree just because some of the traits you did not find with the Mormons. I did not intend to post disinformation or lies, but what I have seen and read about them. I did not say I was throughly literal in what I was presenting, but putting down from memory 15 years ago, and in the process could make some nonessential errors, but not in the overall sense about the subject of cults.
Just a few comments on real objections: 1. Like of Book of Mormons being more authoritative than equal. But then when something absolute comes out from the Bible can't it be always put down with an excuse using counter statements from the supplementary Mormonic book.
2. They use water for there service (sorry for saying mass) was picked from a book about the testimony of priest of Mormon who could came out of Mormonism many years before. It is here I also read about the, though not worded accurately, "inner circle" or "Temple worthy," as you say.
3. Seven Day Adventists though a lot like Christainity, is considered a cult because of holding on to some of the laws of the old testment times, like strictly holding Saturday as the Sabbath day and other ritual laws like not eating pork, etc., thus falling back and relying on such observances rather than the new grace and freedom that comes through faith in Christ. They believe that devil is the sin bearer and in self-atonement for sins committed.
4. Regarding the prayers to/for (maybe not literally George Washington or cats, but as famous and silly, respectively; maybe Shakesphere and cigarette lighters). I received a 50-page compact Mormon tract 15 years ago, which had continous 1-sentence quotations, prayers, statements one after another which did not make any sense, which had all the above things, secular mixed with prayers for or to famous literary/political figures addressed as saints.
5. Catholic church breakaways are always Christian at least principle, e.g, the Orthodox, Luther, Anglican, even the present-day schismatics, while prostestants, not necessarily so. Sometimes, such dangerous cults that even their leaders have led their people sometimes to mass suicides or murders (remember David Koresh), maybe not polytheism all the time.
6. Complicated psychological techniques are especially used especially in Scientology, Christian Science, Moonies, etc. with disasterous effects. I spoke about cults in general, all are not equally similar. Maybe not very explicitly seen in JW or Mormonism, but here too they have psychological hooks. JW by their belief in old testment observances (not in Christ) hope for new life, and since there is no hell, even if they don't qualify for new life, they may as well have a everlasting blissful sleep. The Mormons believe in the lie that Adam fell for, "you will become like God," so an hidden desire to become god is satisfied or kindled. While a JW regress back to Moses, a Mormon regress back to the Adam. Everything else is a beautiful cover for it.
7. All heresies are have their origin in demonic power, more so with cults, where they are under direct domination by specific demonic spirits.
Maybe a part of my knowledge maybe a bit outdated (esp. with respect LDS and Mormons), but certainly not false. The overall sense (not literally like George Washington or cats, but as silly) what I presented about cults is from sources, which I have directly come across and true best to my knowledge, and certainly no misinformation.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.

Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

I think people are using the term "cult" a little loosely here.

I don't know much about JWs, but people freely leave the Mormon church and others every day and go on with their lives--this is NOT the case with real cults, where people have to pay to have their children brought back home and "deprogrammed", as you see with the Moonies and maybe even Scientology, from what I've read.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

Sceintology is a cult, that has exhaustive power over tis adherants. Its been exposed rather oiften.

However, the Mormons and een the Johva's witnesses arent relaly that big on Midn Controle.

Though few peopel actually bother to write the official "Take me off the list" leter, amny peopel do leave mormonsim and go on without any problems.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.


Response to To protestants and catholics: Are JWs and Mormons christian?

There is some good in the mormans. Their stockpiling of food etc to tide them over bad times and their activist conversion teams are good things that would be nice if more did so.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), May 06, 2004.

Hi Zarove!

I have been perusing the other forum. I want you to know that when I started this thread I had not seen David's threads on the subject. I noticed your concerns and hope it has not been and will not be a burden on you.

May God bless you!

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), May 07, 2004.


I must start by saying thank you to Zarove for shedding a little truth into the blatent misconception so many people have about religion. I am willing to assume the majority of people commenting on other religions don't even know enough about their own to be an authority figure, much less a different one (which is obvious by comments made). While I appreciate and believe everyone is entitled to their own personal opinion, please have the respect for others to indicate it as such, not as a doctrinal teaching from an organization. While many people have the ability to discern the difference, it has been made apparent by this string of comments that not everyone is. Lets not breed more misconception, rumors and lies than already exist.

-- Freddy (pcpullman@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004.

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