The Virgin Mary Is No Match For A Few Rocks!!!

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Oh, excuse me, ball bearings. *Steal ball bearings.

[For those who like jumping to conclusions, this is the article the thread is aimed at]
[Lazy people click here:]
Famous 'Virgin Mary' image on Clearwater building vandalized

You guys might want to check this article out too,

[Even Lazier people click here:]
Faithful flock to see Virgin's image on hospital wall

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004

Answers

it's not idolatry, it is hyper dulia!!!!!

[Moderators Note: This post is direct at the second link, *HINT* The link under the first link I provided]

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.


No matter what you think of the veneraton of the virgin mary, vandalism, especially that whihc causes property damage and requires sums of cash to restore a building, is never a laughign matter. The company now has to replace the pains of glass. Likewise, even if it was a Coincidince, it was a betiful one hat pepel codl enjoy, now lost because somepe wanted ot be snide and wreck it for everyone else.

I neither approve of vandilism nor of perversity of actions, and I cannot see why htis woudl be approved by anyone.

The Hostpila Virgin mary is likely a trickof the light and a coincidince.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 01, 2004.


"Only God can replace this window, and if he wants it replaced, it will happen" - Reed

[Note: This is an actual quote from the first article; *HINT* Can be read if you click the first link I provided.]

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.


Mt main poin though was that no vandilism shoudl be allowed.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 01, 2004.

It's a water stain for crying out loud!!!

[Moderator's Note: This post was directed at the 'flocks' of people going to see this 'image' of Mary, mother of Jesus Christ.]

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.



No, it ws glass. Aas in, pains of expensive glass that th Minisry has to replace out-if-pocket. Its a property crime to break windows.

I certainly do not want my windowsn broekn by a ball bearing, why shoul we be happy over this?

Also, so what if it was a waterstain, it was pretty.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 01, 2004.


Sorry Zarove,

I was just mentioning that it's a water stain (second link), NOT the Virgin Mary.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.


"I was just mentioning that it's a water stain (second link), NOT the Virgin Mary."

I don't think anyone was claiming that it was the virgin Mary, just that the image looked like the Virgin Mary. Perhaps it is just a random water stain, perhaps it was put their by God. Both are possibilities.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.


Some people would have gotten all bent out of shape had the image been that of a Harley-Davidson motorcycle or some other secular icon. Hmm, isn't it rather curious that the image has a religious effect on some people, but not others?

Rocshardt (sp?) Charts anyone?

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.


"Since then, crowds of people have been flocking to the state-run hospital in the evenings. A group always stays all night to guard the image. When the light flickers on, the crowd that has gathered begins singing and crying. Many leave offerings of candles, flowers - even the occasional mariachi serenade." (Second Link)

Rod, people normally don't do this for 'secular icons'

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.



[Moderator's Note: Rod's comments are deemed irrelevant, and off-topic.]

David "It's a water stain for crying out loud!!! "

Let's see. What kind of comment can I make to state my point? Ah!

Somebody vandalized La Pieta and the comment rings out: It's only marble for crying out loud!!

Or, let's say the Last Supper painting is vandalized:

It's only oils and tint for crying out loud!!

Art is art, but only in the eyes of beholder or the guy with the slingshot and a pocket full of ball bearings. My kids' pencil marks on the page may look like disorganized and random marks. To them, it is art. To me, it is worth more than gold. Water spots on a building? Perhaps an eye sore, until it takes on meaning to the viewer, it is art--by chance or by divine intervention. I don't believe in chance nor randomness of any kind.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.


Yea rod, it's called Mariolatry.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

"Rod, people normally don't do this for 'secular icons' "

No?? They only spend tens of thousands of dollars on their hobbies and wear funky clothes while attending their secular clubs as they worship their status symbols. Not to mention, their drinking and carousing activities....

People are victims of habit, superstitions, and vice. Some, though, are devout in their faith. I may not see what they see or have experienced. Somethings are difficult to explain.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.


Just for you information, I am not even acknowleding the vandalism in any of my posts. My comment "it's just a water stain" was directed at the "flocks of people".

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Rod,

You can't even begin to defend Mariolatry biblically.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.



Well, I could begin to. One thing that I have encountered that deals with "Mariology" is the Gospel of Mary (I forget the actual title). That particular account of Mary was not included in the present Bible. We could reason that it would probably cause some problems with believers in that they would place Mary higher than Jesus. But, what I see is not that the book is somehow in error, but that it has accounts, which may be true, about Mary.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


"Mariolatry" cannot be defended by anyone. "Mariology" is very evident in the Holy Bible, Tradition, and "other gospels". Hey! sitting in your own living room and thinking about the whole Nativity story can bring one reasoning about Mary.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


It's ok to show high respect for Mary without having to become a Catholic, David. You do carry those treasury notes with pictures of dead presidents, yes? Does that make you less of a Christian and more of a Humanist? Will it destroy you if you got rid of the president faces and replaced them with the image of the woman who natured Jesus?

I have several images of Mary in my home. I don't have any president pictures hanging on the walls, though. But, I do have to buy stuff from Ceasar, so I use his currency to buy survival stuff for my family.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


It is not, however, OK to vandalise anothers proerty. Rather or not you cared about the waterstain Mary image, the window belonged otsomeone and was broekn for no real reason. Likewise, it brouth happiness, ven if it was a coincidental ilustion, so why be happy over its shattering? I take no pleasure in such criminal evetns.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 02, 2004.

++++"My heart sank and I just started praying for whoever did it," said Rosie Reed. ++++ [from first link]

what a nice Christian woman.

whether you're the sad little juvenile that did this, or some other sad little juvenile that is getting a kick out of this mindless act of vandalism, you are still likely to be in Rosie's prayers.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 02, 2004.


David says:

"Yea rod, it's called Mariolatry."

Let me remind you of a verse from Scripture:

Luke 1:48

From now on all generations will call me blessed,

From what I have seen, people who defend Sola Scriptura seem to ignore Mary. My guess is that they see Mary as chosen randomly to be the vessel that brought Jesus into the world. If that is the case, she is due no honor and the above scripture verse is wrong.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


Oops! I used the word "natured" instead of "nurtured".

Some of my Protestant friends tend to put Mary way in the back seat of a very long bus. I just can't figure it out. Are Protestants so afraid of Mary that they may actually place her above Jesus if they actually pay respect to her? Is it some sort of phobia? It has been pointed out that Jesus used the word "woman" while on the cross, as if "woman" was some sort of down grading of Mary's status or role. There is a big difference between the way Clinton uses "woman" and how Christ meant "woman". Christ was leaving His human form, leaving His role as son of Mary, and was making that distinction. Christ was not alienating Mary, but making a fine point. Mary's role completed her initial duty and was entering into her next role. Mary represents the "nurturing" of all believers. Mary is also the symbol of the bringing forth of faith. Yes, I'm sure many Protestants will get that eerie feeling about my comments. But, you don't have to be Catholic to understand such a concept. The problem is believing it. That is another line of demarcation between Protestant faith and Catholic faith

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


[Note: Rod again shows his ability of not being able to read correctly]

My comments in this thread connot be considered as being "irrelevant". The title of this thread and the articles linked are rather open ended in the following subjects:

1. unexplained phenomena.

2. art work: man-made, accidental, natural, Divine Intervention.

3. cultural identification with Marian theology/doctrine.

4. vandalism.

5. refutiation of David's submission: "Mariolatry".

6. environmental conditions causing images to occur whether identified as secular or sacred, e.t. motorcycles or The Virgin Mary.

7. and anything that such an image would inspire us to become enlightened to its meanings and extentions of those meanings.

It ain't just some water spot for some people.

David, you posted this thread; we are replying to it from our own experiences and understandings. Nobody here is "irrelevant" in their thoughts and postings.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


The reason that "water stain" is such a big deal is because the faithful identify it as their religious icon. If it were only a "water stain", it would have been dealt with using cleansers and bleach or a replacement of glass pane. But, since it now illuminates our computer screens, obviously, it is more than just some "water stain" on some secular building. At least, for those who have flocked to it, it becomes a meaningful art work created by conditions, which cannot fully be explained.

Are those conditions merely a result of environment and chemistry reacting together? Have the planets aligned themselves on a perfect plane? Is is wishful thinking on the part of fanatical believers? Or, did God allow for the image of Mary to make such appearances to the world who would be willing to "see"?

I have seen images in tree trunks that have made me blink, squint, and dialate my eyes in amazement. It makes one wonder.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Rod,

I guess Christian art is irrelevant. I can't understand why David considers your remarks irrelevant, after all we have had Christian art for centuries. Even some Sola Scriptura promoting churches have Christian art. They just don't have pictures of Mary.

Here is a question for David: Is there anything that we can learn from what we know about Mary from scripture that can help us lead a better Christian life? The answer from most Sola Scriptura churches that I have attended is no. Mary was rarely mention and there certainly was never a sermon that dealt with her in any significant way. I have heard a sermon about Joseph, but never Mary. I guess Protestants are afraid of Mary.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


I feel very sorry that this has happened. When I think of all the people who derived consolation, comfort and happiness from the image,... that its gone, is a terrible shame. The world can be a lonely, frightful place. This little spot, and the image of Mary helped to bring many people away from some of their pain, and to remind them of some of the good things in the world. A momentary retreat that brought happiness to many. That something "positive" (what ever the cause,) has been ruined, is nothing to rejoice about.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 02, 2004.

Jim,

I agree that it is a tragedy. The disrespect that people have for the woman who brought our Lord Jesus into the world (whether it be her image appearing on this building or her in general), I am appalled at the disrespect for the Virgin Mary. I hope and pray that God will use the incident to bring more people unto Himself and the Catholic Church.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


The true mother of our Lord Jesus Christ is far too important to think that God would have her appearing on walls....

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.

Also., Emily--God has the perfect means to bring people to himself-- and that is the cross.

No other sign is needed.

Can't you see the subtle deception in all of this...?

Who is everyone thinking about and praying too? Mary??????

Yikes?? Mission accomplished, Satan??

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith said: God has the perfect means to bring people to himself-- and that is the cross.

That's right. And unfortunately, Protestants strip the cross of its meaning by portraying it empty - a mere symbol of torture, rather than portraying our Lord on it to help us remember his suffering.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint- heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We are not to forget Jesus' sufferings, but to suffer with Him!

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

The snake in the desert that Moses lifted up was an image with the snake actually on it. I know what you're going to say - Jesus is risen and not on the cross anymore and he was lifted up in real life on the cross so we don't have to show that again. But this is not true. He asked us to remember Him continually through His body and blood re-presented (ie. the same sacrifice) again each week at mass. This is remembering His sufferings. Moses lifted up the snake for the people to pray to God for healing, so also we are to lift up Christ on the cross.

Faith said: Who is everyone thinking about and praying too? Mary?????? Yikes?? Mission accomplished, Satan??

No, Faith. Not only will all people call her blessed as James already said in his post, but also, Mary points to Jesus, commanding obedience to Him.

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

It is a dangerous thing for you to attribute the work of God to satan. I think there is a verse about that (maybe in Hebrews) warning us not to do that, but it escapes me at the moment. Does anyone know where it is?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith said: God has the perfect means to bring people to himself-- and that is the cross. That's right. And unfortunately, Protestants strip the cross of its meaning by portraying it empty - a mere symbol of torture, rather than portraying our Lord on it to help us remember his suffering.

Oh Emily--our crosses are empty because we celebrate the fact that He is victorious and has risen--whereas, you keep him as a perpetual victim.., offering him up on the altar to God--as a sacrifice--over and over and over again.

His sacrifice was once for all time--never to be repeated again., as the Old Testament sacrifices needed to be repeated all the time-- because those sacrifices were insufficient!

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

This was done at the cross.

The snake in the desert that Moses lifted up was an image with the snake actually on it. I know what you're going to say - Jesus is risen and not on the cross anymore and he was lifted up in real life on the cross so we don't have to show that again. But this is not true. He asked us to remember Him continually through His body and blood re-presented (ie. the same sacrifice) again each week at mass. Lol!! Where? Remembering is remembering--and by symbolically sharing in communion--we remember.

Faith said: Who is everyone thinking about and praying too? Mary?????? Yikes?? Mission accomplished, Satan??

No, Faith. Not only will all people call her blessed as James already said in his post, but also, Mary points to Jesus, commanding obedience to Him.

I know that that is what you claim--but the truth in the way it actually plays out says that Catholics are worshipping and praising her--even thinking she is omnipresent so that she can hear all your prayers. But the Bible says that only God is omnipresent and able to hear all our prayers.

John 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And Catholics should listen to her (the true Mary of the Bible).

It is a dangerous thing for you to attribute the work of God to satan. I think there is a verse about that (maybe in Hebrews) warning us not to do that, but it escapes me at the moment. Does anyone know where it is? Where did I ever attribute God's word to Satan?????????

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith,

I think your statement : "Mission accomplished Satin??" within the context of this thread, seems to imply that Catholic veneration of Mary is probably Satanic. Catholics don't view it that way.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 02, 2004.


Uh.....Protestants view it that way, not Catholics. That view is very evident in this thread. I still wonder why Protestants cannot grasp the true Catholic view, but instead call it "Satanic".

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Well Jim..,

Even your church views some of the Marian apparitions as being the work of Satan--I just understand that all of them are!

The Mary of those apparitions preaches a gospel of another kind., and Paul warned us about this.....

Gal 1:6-10

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Ephes 6:10-17

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


Rod,

The reason they call it satanic is that it is easier to do that than to actually study what the Church actually teaches about Mary. I am sure that both Faith and David would be the first to admit that they know very little about what the Catholic Church teaches regarding Mary. Given that they have little knowledge, they can only make judgements about what they see. Are they willing to give the accused idolators a fair trial? I cannot answer that question, only they can.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith says:

"The Mary of those apparitions preaches a gospel of another kind"

Ok, Faith, let's restrict ourselves to those apparitions that are approved by the church. Can you give me an example of something that Mary has said in one of the approved apparitions that goes against what the Scripture teaches?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


James,

The Catholic Church teaches these basic dogmas (4 currently - I think, I don't know if the "Co-redemptrix" is a dogma yet):
Mary, Mother of God
Immaculate Conception
Assumption
Perpetual Virginity

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


Oh., I sure can...

What about her promises of bringing world peace?

Compare her promise with Christ's own words...

The biblical teaching is that of "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1..it is a free gift of God's grace--and it is a peace that was bought "through the blood of his cross" Col 1:20

Individual peace comes by faith to all who believe the gospel. World peace will only be established when Christ returns to reign from Jerusalem as the prophets foretold.

Catholic Mary has taken the place of Christ as the one through whom peace will come., and the present pope and your church support this heresy.

Mary at Fatima said,

"Say the rosary every day to obtain peace for the world..,Pray, pray, a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices and pray for them... God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to MY IMMACULATE HEART. If people do what I tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace."

Souls "go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices"?? Christ has already made the only saving sacrifice!

This same apparition of Mary said:

"I will never leave you (something Christ promised us--and this presupposes omnipresence, an attribute of God alone) My Immaculate heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God... Sacrifice yourselves for the conversion of sinners (Only Christ's sacrifice avails for sinners), and in reparation for the sins commited against the Immaculate Heart of Mary... I promise to assist at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for salvation all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, go to confession and receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary and keep me company for a quarter of an hour while meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary with the intentions of making reparations to me."

This Mary's offer of "the graces necessary for salvation"...and her promise to "lead you to God" is one more denial of the sufficiency ofChrist's finished work upon the cross.

It is to Mary's heart that the world must make reparation for the evil that it has done against her??????????

David said:

"Against thee, and only thee, have I sinned." Psalm 51:4

Sin is against God--and not against any of His creatures....

Clearly, this apparition--as all of the apparitions of Mary--oppose the biblical gospel of salvation by grace through faith in the finished sacrifice of Christ, and glorify a counterfeit Mary in His place.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith says:

"Souls "go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices"?? Christ has already made the only saving sacrifice! "

If you recall in Matthew 17:21 it says:

"However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." Jesus is of course talking about the disciples not being able to drive out a demon. Prayer and fasting are a type of sacrifice. Why wasn't Jesus's death enough to drive out all demons, I don't know. But some people are in sin because of demonic activity and should we fast for them? You better believe we should!

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


James?

Do you want to try again?

Don't tell me you will ignore my effort and work-- to show you how the false Mary of these apparitions denies the true gospel--by agreeing that Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient??

Oh please don't tell me that that is your argument!!

Also., Matthew 17:21 is not the passage you posted. Could you get the right book, chapter and verse, so I can look it up and read for context? I am sure that the disciple's inability to drive out demons had to do with their lack of faith., and not anything lacking in Christ.

Also, can you address my post--point by point?

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


That is a very interesting and impactful point, James. I had never realized such a fact.

............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Havn't we strayed form the vadilism that was initially discussed in this thread? wasnt that the real issue?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 02, 2004.

Mary, Mother of God-[well, it only makes sense that Jesus is God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, but God has always existed. "Mary Mother of God" does not mean that Mary existed before God.]

Immaculate Conception-[There is documented evidence to support this claim. The problem is that those documents are not part of this Bible.]

Assumption-[Enoch, Elijah, well why not Mary, too??]

Perpetual Virginity-[Mary isn't the only person who has lived such a life. It is possible. It isn't impossible.]

The Quran may shed more light on Mary's life.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


No Zarove..I believe the topic is Mary...and apparitions...

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.

Hi Zarove.

I guess you've noticed that only non-Catholics may receive criticism for allegedly going off topic; Protestants are immune to such restrictions.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Oops! I goofed. It's that Freudian thing again. That should have read:

" I guess you've noticed that only Catholics may receive criticism for allegedly going off topic; Protestants are immune to such restrictions."

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Faith's point number 1:

She claims Mary's promise to bring peace violates what the scripture says. Certainly, romans says that for the individual peace is the result of faith in Jesus Christ. Mary says to pray the rosary for peace. In my experience, praying the rosary increases my faith in Jesus. I highly recommend it. After all, the rosary is primarily about meditating on the mysteries of the life of Jesus. It is a very powerful form of prayer.

Faith point two:

We need to make sacrifices for the conversion of sinners. Since Faith didn't believe my verse, I will post Matthew 17:14-21:

And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15"Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic[3] and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him." 17Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me." 18And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour. 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" 20So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief;[4] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."

I stand by what I wrote previously.

Faith's point number 3:

This Mary's offer of "the graces necessary for salvation"...and her promise to "lead you to God" is one more denial of the sufficiency of Christ's finished work upon the cross. "

Faith, what you don't understand is that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith AND works. After all, faith without works is dead. Therefore, to make it to heaven we need to be perservere in the faith until the end. Is it unreasonable that the saints in heaven can pray for us and help us receive the grace from God to remain faithful in the race until the end. The sola fide types who figure they can just accept Jesus and then do whatever they want until they die will never understand this.

Faith point number 4:

"It is to Mary's heart that the world must make reparation for the evil that it has done against her??????????

David said:

"Against thee, and only thee, have I sinned." Psalm 51:4

Sin is against God--and not against any of His creatures.... "

While we only sin against God, we are all hurt by others sin:

in Luke 2:35 says:

"And a sword will pierce your own soul too", what is it that pierces Mary's soul? Our sinfulness that resulted in Jesus being put to death on the cross. Now does that mean that because she is in heaven she no longer cares about sin in the world? In my opinion no. I put the rest of the passage below in case you are interested in its context.

"Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


Emily said: It is a dangerous thing for you to attribute the work of God to satan. I think there is a verse about that (maybe in Hebrews) warning us not to do that, but it escapes me at the moment. Does anyone know where it is?

Faith said: Where did I ever attribute God's word to Satan?????????

I said you attributed the work of God to satan, and it was with this statement:

Faith said: Who is everyone thinking about and praying too? Mary?????? Yikes?? Mission accomplished, Satan??

Faith said: we celebrate the fact that He is victorious and has risen--whereas, you keep him as a perpetual victim.., offering him up on the altar to God--as a sacrifice--over and over and over again.

No, Jesus is not sacrificed over and over. I already explained this. The Eucharist is a re-presentation of Christ's once for all (ie. once for all time, past, present, future) sacrifice. Besides, we are to remember Christ's sufferings as shown in the Romans verse I posted earlier. We share in His sufferings and His glory - you can't pick and choose just one.

Faith said: His sacrifice was once for all time--never to be repeated again., as the Old Testament sacrifices needed to be repeated all the time-- because those sacrifices were insufficient!

I agree. It's not repeated. It is the same sacrifice once for all time, and just as in the OT it was presented with the passover lamb, so now it is presented in the Eucharist. Once for all time, past, present, future.

Faith said: Catholics are worshipping and praising her [Mary]-- even thinking she is omnipresent so that she can hear all your prayers. But the Bible says that only God is omnipresent and able to hear all our prayers.

First of all, the Catholic Church teaches that worship of anyone other than God is wrong. Anyone who worships Mary is committing a serious sin. The Catholic Church does teach that we are to called her "blessed" and "full of grace" just as the Bible does. Also, God delivers the prayers to Mary, so that she can pray for us. The word "pray" simply means ask or petition.

Faith said: And Catholics should listen to her (the true Mary of the Bible).

Faith, we agree on something! :) God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


I was puzzled with that particular scene in a movie about Mary. I couldn't get the full meaning of Mary's heart being "pierced". I think you've made the puzzles easier to connect, James.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Emily

Your true colors are showing. That God!

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Rod, I don't understand your comment to me?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.

Faith's point number 1: She claims Mary's promise to bring peace violates what the scripture says. Certainly, romans says that for the individual peace is the result of faith in Jesus Christ. Mary says to pray the rosary for peace. In my experience, praying the rosary increases my faith in Jesus. I highly recommend it. After all, the rosary is primarily about meditating on the mysteries of the life of Jesus. It is a very powerful form of prayer.

Too bad that Mary's promise of peace by praying the rosary, was not for personal peace, tho...

Faith point two:

We need to make sacrifices for the conversion of sinners. Since Faith didn't believe my verse, I will post Matthew 17:14-21:

And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying, 15"Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic[3] and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 16So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him." 17Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me." 18And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour. 19Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?" 20So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief;[4] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, "Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. 21However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting."

Here is my translation:

Matt 17:14-20 (There is no verse 21 in my translation-the NIV)., though some Bible versions do include that verse in italics. That is because it is deemed suspicious. In other words--it is believed to have been falsely added. That is why I didn't recognize your verse-- and it still says--even with that added verse., that the disciples lacked faith...which is why they couldn't exorcise demons.

When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him." "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

I stand by what I wrote previously.

So you have concluded that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and that we need to add to his work?

Faith's point number 3:

This Mary's offer of "the graces necessary for salvation"...and her promise to "lead you to God" is one more denial of the sufficiency of Christ's finished work upon the cross. "

Faith, what you don't understand is that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith AND works. After all, faith without works is dead. Therefore, to make it to heaven we need to be perservere in the faith until the end. Is it unreasonable that the saints in heaven can pray for us and help us receive the grace from God to remain faithful in the race until the end. The sola fide types who figure they can just accept Jesus and then do whatever they want until they die will never understand this.

I am sticking to the Scripture James. It says that we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.., and this is in opposition to the appartitions of Mary--who seem to have accomplished their mission., judging by what you believe...

Faith point number 4:

"It is to Mary's heart that the world must make reparation for the evil that it has done against her??????????

David said:

"Against thee, and only thee, have I sinned." Psalm 51:4

Sin is against God--and not against any of His creatures.... "

While we only sin against God, we are all hurt by others sin:

That has nothing to do with what this apparition is saying and who she is claiming to be...

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 02, 2004.


Emily

In other words, the nun in you is making herself clear. By now, the tone in the posts should be heating up to a less than comfortable temperature. You've remained cool.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


Rod said: Your true colors are showing. That God!

What do you mean, did you mean to say "that's good"? I hope you're not calling me "God" - I didn't think you would, that's why I was really confused.

Rod said: In other words, the nun in you is making herself clear. By now, the tone in the posts should be heating up to a less than comfortable temperature. You've remained cool.

Thank you for the compliment :) I am ashamed to admit, however, that I have gotten angry or reacted unkindly in the past. I am not immune to these things. We all need to pray for strength from God to always show Christian charity. This is definitely something I need to work on too.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


My toe's on fire. I hope it doesn't reach my tongue. (:p

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2004.


I got mad when acts of toughtless vandalism were treated as good things... but I digress...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 02, 2004.

Faith says:

"Too bad that Mary's promise of peace by praying the rosary, was not for personal peace, tho".

You are saying that we will have peace in the world some other way than people turning their hearts towards Jesus Christ and receiving personal peace first?

Faith also says:

"So you have concluded that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and that we need to add to his work?"

Let me ask you a question Faith: Does your church support missionaries? If it does, why does it do so? Probably for the conversion of sinners? Why wasn't Christ's sacrifice enough?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.


I am saying what the Bible has revealed--that there will be no worldly peace until the Prince of Peace returns at the end of this age.

Mary's promise to bring world peace is a lie....

Missionary work is done to follow Christ's command to feed the hungry and preach the *good news* to the ends of the earth....not because Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient--but because it was totally sufficient and worth telling everyone about--just as the apostles did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 03, 2004.


Oh I see the confusion now. I now have a keyboard with the letter "N":

"Your true colors are showing. Thank God!"

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.


Faith said: Matt 17:14-20 (There is no verse 21 in my translation- the NIV)., though some Bible versions do include that verse in italics. That is because it is deemed suspicious. In other words--it is believed to have been falsely added.

Watch out, Faith. It's in the KJV and not in italics there, and I believe there are some KJV-proponents in this forum, hmm? Who can you trust for an accurate Bible? Do you trust a King of England and his translators/compilers? Do you trust a modern publishing company who stands to profit from saying that the KJV is inaccurate? Or do you trust the Catholic Church, to which Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide and that the gates of hell would not prevail against her?

However, just in case it was added incorrectly, we still have this passage in Mark 9, shown here in NIV:

22"From childhood," he answered. "It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us."
23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."
24Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"
25When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil[1] spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."
26The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.
28After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
29He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer.[2] "

The footnote #2 adds, "9:29 Some manuscripts prayer and fasting."

This shows exactly what James was saying - that prayer, or sacrificial acts on our part - are required sometimes for God's work to be accomplished.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.


This has nothing to do with my response to James--who asked me to give him an example of how an apparition contradicts the Word of God.

I gave him some good stuff--and it has been turned into this.

What does this have to do with my post?

I agree that prayer is good--not that God needs it to accomplish anything., but because it draws us close to Him and reveals our faith. The lacking element is the *faith* of these disciples--not the sufficiency of the cross.

Prayer is the key that unlocks faith and power. I have no problem with that and my Bible does include Mark 9:29

All I can conclude--is that you are agreeing with this apparition that Jesus' work was not sufficient and that somehow Mary is needed to accomplish what the Scriptures clearly reveal only Jesus will do..

I'd say that it is you who should be careful...

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 03, 2004.


Faith said: All I can conclude--is that you are agreeing with this apparition that Jesus' work was not sufficient and that somehow Mary is needed to accomplish what the Scriptures clearly reveal only Jesus will do..

Faith, please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that the work of Christ is not sufficient. However, I talked with a liberal "Christian" today. He used the same argument to support his view. He said that there is no hell and that all people will eventually go to heaven, it's just a matter of time, depending on how good or bad they are on earth. He said that God's grace is all- encompassing and he used the verse "God is not willing that any should perish" to say that God's grace covers everyone to admit them to heaven. He said anything less than this means Christ's work was insufficient.

Do you see the fallacy of this view? Just because God requires our obedience and cooperation, this in no way negates the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what the Scriptures clearly reveal only Jesus will do." Please clarify exactly what you are talking about.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.


If our personal suffering and sacrifice have no meaning since Christ's sacrifice, then what did Paul mean when he said "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church," Col 1:24

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.

For Emily...

Faith, please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that the work of Christ is not sufficient. However, I talked with a liberal "Christian" today. He used the same argument to support his view.

I am not sure what this has to do with my post to James. He is the one who gave this verse about the demon possessed boy to confirm that Christ's work is not fully sufficient on its own--which was his way of affirming the apparition of Mary. He did this because I was pointing out that this counterfeit Mary claims to be needed to bring in world peace (something only Jesus will do at the end of the age).

He said that there is no hell and that all people will eventually go to heaven, it's just a matter of time, depending on how good or bad they are on earth. He said that God's grace is all- encompassing and he used the verse "God is not willing that any should perish" to say that God's grace covers everyone to admit them to heaven. He said anything less than this means Christ's work was insufficient.

I disagree with this person and can't see what it has to do with anything??

Do you see the fallacy of this view? Just because God requires our obedience and cooperation, this in no way negates the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

The only thing God requires of us is to *believe* in the One He has sent. Jesus says that that is the work of God. And without faith., we will perish--in spite of the fact that God does not want that for any of us.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "what the Scriptures clearly reveal only Jesus will do." Please clarify exactly what you are talking about.

The peace plan according to Scripture comes in at the end of the age--our Prince of Peace will bring all nations under His foot--His sword is the Word of God...and Jesus conqueres all and establishes His kingdom forever--not until then.



-- (faith01@myway.com), May 04, 2004.


Faith,

Isn't the only command Jesus gave us to love one another as He loved us? Wouldn't that love cover both faith and works? What good is faith without love? Even the demons have faith and tremble in fear.

I don't think that "believe" is the only thing required of us for salvation. I don't have any Bible quotes off the top of my head but I could find some if you'd like.

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.


Dear [Andy]..,

Where does it say that demons have faith?

The only verse I know of says that demons believe that there is only one God. But that is just a knowledge about God---they have no faith....they don't believe in Jesus...

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 04, 2004.


Faith,

That is not 'Joe'. That is 'andy'

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


David,

I was trying to post anonymously because I received some spam when I didn't but you go me. The spam I recived was pretty sick Child pron stuff.

Anyway, I am not the Andrew that posted the "whostartedyour church" link and I am not here to bait Protestants. If you donlt believe me, check my IP adress with Andrew's and you'll see they're different. I assume that's how you figured out my real email address.

I don't like when Protestants bait Catholics and I won't do it myself. I will explain and defend my faith when I think it needs to be done though.

I apologize for not seeming forthright. I have spoken with Faith before in the Catholic forum.

Faith, the verse I was referring to is in James 2:19 "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder."

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.


Andy,

There is a trick to not getting spam. Put " " before and after your email. That way the robots that collect emails won't be able to email you anything.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


That allows people to know who you are, but not the email scanners.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.

Andy,

Now try hovering over your email link. You get a blank.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Thanks David.

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.

Neat trick! Thanks again.

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.

I got so excited I forgot the ""'s!

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.

Faith,

I think I understand your point about demons having an intellectual faith, but not believing in Christ as we do. Maybe your definition of "faith" includes trusting in Christ and loving Him.

When I think of "faith" I think of intellectual assent. I refer to love and hope as separate from faith. Varying definitions, but I think we agree on the need for all three. I don't mean to get this discussion off topic. I wanted to make that point regarding "faith" and "believing" to see if we are on the same page or not.

Some of the differences between Catholics and Protestants, IMHO, are differences in definition for the same terms (such as faith).

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 04, 2004.


Andy..,

Why don't we go straight to God's Word for a definition of what is faith?

Hebrews 11:1-12

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

By faith Abraham, even though he was past age--and Sarah herself was barren--was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.


That seems like a good definition of faith, Faith. If I read Paul correctly, faith is believing and trusting. So where does love come in? What good is faith without love? 1 Cor 13

I ask this in reference to your comment: The only thing God requires of us is to *believe* in the One He has sent.

IMHO, God requires us to believe, hope, and love in order to please Him. Certainly, each affects the other and abundance or lack of one strengthens or weakens the others.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


My comment about God only requiring us to believe was in reference to the only *work* we can do.

John 6:27-28..

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.


Faith,

Sorry for misunderstanding you. I think that faith is just the beginning though.

See John 15:4-17. Then read the words that come from 1 John 4:16-21:

So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, "I love God," and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also.

My point is this, that belief (faith) in Christ must be coupled with love. And to truly love we must act on it.

I don't mean to imply that you meant that true faith can be had without loving. I just wanted to clarify what you meant in your post. Thanks for being patient with me.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I personally don't see how faith in Jesus Christ can exist without loving Him. God is love....the gospel of Jesus Christ--the good news-- is love, for God so loved the world that He gave His Son.

Once you receive Christ and He is in you--love is just a fact in you.

But the faith came first--and it is by this faith in His love for you, and not your acts of love--that you are saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), May 05, 2004.


Faith,

If I understand you correctly, your definition of real faith in Jesus includes trusting in Christ, hoping in Him, and love. Is that right?

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I want to make sure I understand exactly what you mean when you use the word "faith." I feel our understanding of the meaning of that word is important to many of the discussions here.

As I said before, when I hear the word "faith" the connotation is a bit different.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I think I am pretty clear--- Faith is what saves us. Faith in Him--and yes--this includes trusting in Him and His love. It is by Him and His love that we are saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.

As I said before, thanks for being patient with me. I got it now.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.

Faith,

Earlier in this thread there was discussion about offering our suffering to God for the conversion of sinners. I think you made a comment to the effect that we cannot do that because it would mean that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was insufficient. Please correct me if I am paraphrasing you incorrectly.

With that in mind, what's your interpretation of Paul's words in Col 1:21-26:

And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I think Paul is refering to his sufferings as being that of Christ's because we are one with Christ in His body. Christ suffered for our salvation--but we suffer for the church, for the spreading of the gospel. As believers we suffer....

This is not to say that Christ's suffering on the cross was not sufficient for our salvation--and I don't think Paul's meaning is about salvation--but for the future of the body--Christ's church.

My Bible reads: verse 24

"Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you (Christ's sacrifice at calvary), and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions--for the sake of his body--which is the church."

-- (faith01@myway.com), May 05, 2004.


Thanks Faith. I agree with you. I don't think that Paul was implying that Christ's sacrifice was somehow insufficient either, but that his suffering was for the benefit of the body of Christ, that is the church.

By the way, what translation are you using? I quoted from RSV.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I use the NIV mostly... because it's easy to read. I also like the New Living Translation for the same reason.

But I also refer to the King James Version--and have heard that there is a *new* KJV that is in today's English--which I haven't seen yet.

I also have a Douay Rheims., a New American Bible--and eeks a copy of the New World Translation (which I know is a false version in so many ways). But I like to do comparison readings when a question comes up.

-- NIV favorite ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.


I too have a copy of the New World Translation. (The Greek Translations....something or other). Funny thing, when I received it , it had a knife stabbing cut through it. At first I thought; who could do such a thing and why? Then, I read the book and figured out why. The book has false teachings: Jesus is not implicated as the "Word" and the use of "god" instead of "God" in particular verses sort of hints to the Jehovah Witness doctrines/theologies.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


The Jehovah Witnesses needed to rewrite the Bible to fit their theology. Of course they have a very convincing reason for adding the letter *a* in John 1:1. And they believe their explanation themselves, and can easily convince those poor souls whom they recruit off of front porches that they are correct....

I have a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness for years. It was for her- -that I educated myself about that cult and was able to pull her out of it. She is no longer with them. She gave me her Bibles., because you can't buy them in a store. I am armed and equipped--and ready to handle anything a Jehovah's Witness might throw my way when they ring my doorbell--which I look forward to .....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.


Excellent! Faith.

I enjoy the Latter Day Saints(oh come on let's call them Mormons! Who are we fooling?!) on quiet afternoons. They roll up on their bikes and procede with their pre-programmed message. Then I start with my questions. Funny, they tend to leave rather quickly to avoid further questions.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Can't say I have ever encountered a preaching Mormon at my door--but I'd be ready for them too : )

Do you live in Utah?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 05, 2004.


I live down at the very tip of Texas, a few miles from the Mexican border. I guess the Mormons are everywhere. I have seen two of their churches down here in Edinburgh and Weslaco.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Rod,

For some reason the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnessess don't come to our house anymore...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


I think the JWs don't stop by anymore because of my wife. My wife answered the door one day, she doesn't speak spanish, so I guess they've pegged us off their lists.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


I found it interesting that the NIV has a bit of a different translation than some others for Col 1:24. What sparked my interest was the seemingly different translation between the RSV and NIV. I did a comparison on Biblegateway.com and found most of the other translations have Paul talking about rejoicing in his sufferings not rejoicing in what was suffered (i.e., Christ's sacrifice at Calvary).

The differing translations seem to me, to put a bit of a different spin on Paul's view of the value of suffering and it's purpose. I point it out because we all face suffering everyday, some days worse than others. I believe that our attitude and approach to the trials we face can bring us closer to Christ or be an excuse to withdraw further into ourselves.

To me, suffering and it's purpose in God's plan is still a bit of a mystery. The Word of God offers clues as well the writings of holy men and women. This whole thought process was sparked by the discussion earlier in this thread on the idea of offering up personal suffering and trials for the conversion of sinners and the comment that implies that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was somehow insufficient.

NIV: Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

NASB: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

NLT: I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am completing what remains of Christ's sufferings for his body, the church.

KJV: Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

NLV: Now I am full of joy to be suffering for you. In my own body I am doing my share of what has to be done to make Christ's sufferings complete. This is for His body which is the Church.

ESV: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

NKJV: I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

ASV: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;

YLT: I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,

RSV: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

NAB: Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

etc.

-- Andy ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


I think the Catholic doctrine of redemptive suffering is beautiful, because it gives people hope who are suffering - that God has a reason for it.

Basically, it's like if you're suffering, you can pray and offer your situation up to God and ask that God apply what you are suffering for the benefit of someone else (be it comfort, salvation, what have you). It seems to me that this is what Paul is talking about in this passage.

I think he may also be referring to this idea here:

1 Cor 9:22 (NIV) To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Thanks for the post with all those verses, Andy!

God bless :)

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com'), May 06, 2004.


As long as we don't think that we can suffer in order to earn our salvation, and we understand that what Paul is speaking of does not diminish the work of Christ at Cavary--then I Can agree with the idea that our suffering builds character--and God can and does use it for our good.

But that apparition of Mary in Fatima suggests that Christ's sacrifice was not good enough--she goes as far as to say that people are going to hell because they have no one to suffer for them. Christ suffered for us--so that we do not have to go to hell.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), May 06, 2004.


Faith,

Would you pray for the conversion of another person? If so, why? Wasn't Christ's sacrifice on the cross enough for their salvation? I think you are confusing two issues here. The first is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and because of this has purchased the rewards of eternal life for those who have faith and obey the gospel. Nothing can take the place of Christ's death.

The second issue, is whether we have any role at all in the bringing of someone else to faith. Mary at Fatima says yes, so does the bible. We are to pray and fast for others. Those who believe in predestination will argue that God has already decided who will be saved, so there is nothing we can do. However the bible says we are to preach the gospel to all the nations, and if our works have no effect then supporting missionaries both local and abroad is a waste of money. I am not saying that our works by themselves are of much value, but our works when they are responding to the call of God in our lives can be powerful. And that is the message of Mary at Fatima.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), May 06, 2004.


I am an evangelical Christian who absolutely believes it is our job as a church, as a body, to bring others into Christ. I do not see predestination as having anything to do with salvation. Predestination always refers to blessings for those who are already saved. We, because we are saved, have been predestined to blessings from God., blessings such as eternal life.

Mary at Fatima is not charging us to lead people to Christ--she is charging us to lead them to her....She says it is her Immaculate heart which is our refuge and will lead us to God.

The Bible says that there is only one name under heaven by which we can come to God--and it isn't *Mary.*

-- ('faith01@myway.com"), May 06, 2004.


I agree with you , Faith.

Marian apparitions should encourage us to pray more to her son, to God (Yahweh).

Why does she encourage the Rosary?

Not even my mom, who dreamed her, was asked to pray the rosary. My mom has done it for years. So did Grandma her mom.

Only Jesus asked her to pray for her children. If she did, they would be alive as long as she was living on this Earth. She did.

It has been 19 years already.

We are all still alive.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.


Well I guess the window is pretty well forotten about...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 08, 2004.

Here is something related to this topic "Mary....rocks":

Da Vinci's art.

Interesting paintings relating to
Mary, Elizabeth, John the Baptist, and Jesus on the rocks.

Virgin of the Rocks.

Virgin of the Rocks, the heretical version.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 09, 2004.


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