Who Started Your Church?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

You must see this:

Who Started Your Church?

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004

Answers

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Andrew,

Thanks for sharing this wonderful site. I will let all my Catholic friends know, people who are not sure what church to join, and those thinking about leaving the Catholic Church.

Sharon

-- Sharon (delipasta@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Andrew, an we please stop the protestant Baiting. it is unbecoming.Not only do you reuse to actually listen to what protestnats beelive, you now have to toss off a cheap one liner.

Calm down, talk about soemthign else beides the evil protestnats and how o defend yoyr faith. If you dont, you won't have a faith worth defneing.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

ALSO , the Mormons arent protestnat...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

JPII has said on many occasions, including one quoted in L'Osservatore Romano on June 10th, 1980, that Protestants share in the Apostolic Mission of the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t know why, if JPII has worked so hard to unify all Christians, that some people work so hard to destroy our relationship with our Protestant brothers and sisters by creating websites like that.

Look to the Encyclicals…

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO (3) “It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.”

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO (4) “Nevertheless, the divisions among Christians prevent the Church from attaining the fullness of catholicity proper to her, in those of her sons who, though attached to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her. Furthermore, the Church herself finds it more difficult to express in actual life her full catholicity in all her bearings.”

UT UNUM SINT (46) “Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid.”

LUMEN GENTIUM (13) and CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (836) “All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm……

-- EC (EC@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I agree wihthe Pope on this one.Nothign is accomplished by infihtign among Christians.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

What is achieved in shaming anyone? All human life is precious and should be revered and respected since it mirrors God's image. Protestants should no more be shamed for making what we may feel are wrong decisions than should the Iraqi prisoners for being forced to parade nude before cameras by their captors. All life should be treated with dignity and honor.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I don't think there's reason to be gleeful about 'shaming' protestants. Rather I'm ashamed that any fellow-Catholic would have that mindset. Our separated brethren deserve our respect, love and prayers, not this childish mentality.

-- One Faith One Baptism (Ecumenism@ChristianUnity.com), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I thought that the one Church was started by Jseus - as set out in Lumen Gentium. Sadly, it has fragmented in some respects. The Vatican Council and the many commissions on unity have reached out in dialogue with our separated brothers and sisters.

Incidentally - where is the Orthodox Church in the list? There are some there who would see US as the schismatics who broke away from them.

Just a thought.

-- Kevin Bartlett (sargon12@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Zarove,

I think this may be a different Andrew that the one to whom you are referring. Perhaps there is a need to distinguish among the Andrew/Andy names who post here. I can think of two others besides this one, off the top of my head (based on different email addresses). I have gotten confused a few times.

Andrew,

While I agree and believe that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus, I disagree with this site's methods. If people ask my why I wish to become Catholic, I will say that one of the reasons is because I believe that it's the original Christian Church, founded by Jesus. Fair enough, as this is the Catholic belief. However, to use it to refute Protestants is fruitless, because this site bases the entire foundation of its philosophy on a misconception of Protestantism.

Most Protestants do not define the "Christian Church" as one particular church body (such as Catholic, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.) of which they are a member, and this site seems to think that each of those Protestant groups believe that they themselves are the one true Church of Jesus. Rather, most Protestants would say that the "true Christian Church" is an invisible body that includes all believers, no matter what denomination, which would make the year and founder of their denomination irrelevant. Hence, they too would claim that their idea of the "Christian Church" (ie. encompassing all believers) was also founded by Jesus.

Thus, using this site will be offensive because it misrepresents the commonly held belief about the Church among Protestants. We should promote truth, but in doing so, neither should we distort the beliefs of any particular group in order to achieve our own ends.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

"Incidentally - where is the Orthodox Church in the list? There are some there who would see US as the schismatics who broke away from them. "

A: Well, as soon as someone can direct me to a document produced by (or even mentioning) "The Orthodox Church" prior to the 11th century, I'll entertain that possibility. Until then, history clearly reveals that there was no Christian Church on earth but the Catholic Church for 1,000 years after Christ.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 04, 2004.



Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Paul, most of the chruc writers used the term " orthodox", een augustine in his writings.

The term "Catholic" and "Orthodox", as well as "Holy" wjwere interchangable, and sometimes used in tangent. will dig and find the quotes.But before the schism, the Catholic and Orthodox churhces effectively where the same institution, afterward, one was nto begun whle the oher ocntinued, rather they are both branches o the same origional chruch.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

So it seems as in times past catholisim was demeaned by protestants. So the answer appears to be put them to shame? I say shame on the whole lot of you who agree to this. IF any wish to see the Catholic church grow, you must be willing to 'reach' not berate or revel in your version of the truth. umm, just a suggestion.

-- observer (just@a.lurker), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Observer, I beleive we for the most aprt agreed that his behaviour was wrong.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

JMJ

I was taught in school a simple analogy. Think of the Catholic Church as a pie... Now think of the other religions (Protestantism, Islam, etc...) as slices of the pie. The Catholic Church is the whole pie, i.e., She contains the fullness of Truth. The other slices contain varying degrees of Truth, but still are missing something. The only way to realize the fullness of Truth is to come home to the Big Pie in the Sky.

With this in mind, yes, we hope and pray that our separated brethren come home. Also, (regarding the no salvation outside the Church debate), it is possible that someone outside the church can be saved (depending on the particular circumstances), because other religions contain some degree of Truth. But something, however, is still missing. It is MUCH easier to save ones soul in the fullness of truth via the Catholic Church. This is why we as Catholics are obligated to try and bring the Faith to others.

Finally, here is my point... ... I understand the motivation of the website. The author wants to try and convince non-Catholics to realize the error of their ways and come back to Christ's One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The tactic, however, is one that will more often than not result in the opposite of the intended effect. We are to proselytize the Faith with love and kindness, not like the site presented in this thread (although it is an interesting topic). With chastisement in mind, it would also behoove all here condemning the site to remember this; the site’s author has the right intention, but is approaching it the wrong way.

Pax, Steve

-- Steve Y. (stephen.yavorski@wpafb.af.mil), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Good question Ed!

"What is achieved in shaming anyone?" Nothing was achieved by making prisoners parade around nude in front of a camera in front of their captorers(sp?)

At least the few that this happened to are alive to speak of this! What about the MILLION PLUS that Sadam has already killed? How many babies got raped in front of their Mom's Mr. ANTI-America? How many Moms got raped in front of their babies?

I don't agree with this thread, but why compare it to what you did?

What the heck does that have to do with the high price of fish in China?

-- - (David@excite.com), May 04, 2004.



Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

We still don't know the whole story with regard to the humiliation of Iraqi prisoners. I'm sure there is more to it than the sensationalism that has sprung from the revolting photos.

It doesn't matter what Sadam did. We as Americans are above this. This can never be what we are about, or how we present ourselves to the world. We can never use Sadam as a bellwether, or any kind of basis of comparison for our behavior. The world expects more from us; we are held to a higher standard than Sadam.

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

My apologies for pulling this thread farther off topic.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

My point Exactly Jim!

What does a naked prisoner have to do with this thread Ed?

-- - (David@excite.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I agree with you Steve except I did not see anything offensive with this site. As we all know everyone can read something and come away with different opinions. I would have to guess the author does have love and kindness for others because he took the time to make this web page which shows the truth.

God Bless,

Jalapeno

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

Jalapeno, I was thinking the same thing.

God Bless,

-- Vincent (love@noemail.net), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I don't think Emily finds this site as "offensive". I am learning from Emily.

Everyone hits a bump in the road and thats why God gave us our saints for. We need to keep praying so we can keep pushing each other forward.

May Mother Seton pray for us sinners.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 04, 2004.


Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

To me, there is nothing offensive about the site. It's the truth. How can one be offended by listing the dates and founders of their church? But I've never been a Protestant. I'll accept what Emily says, because she has earned respect in this forum. But I still don't get it. I don't think originally that Zarove was offended so much by the site as by the title of the thread.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 04, 2004.

Response to Site that puts all Protestants to shame

I agree Brian, and I myself didn't feel from the start that the title was appropriate. Therefore I am changing it.

Paul (Moderator)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 05, 2004.


I was not offended by the site, but I was just saying the most Protestants will be because it misrepresents their belief that Jesus started a Christian Church that includes all believers. I can elaborate more on this later. They have their own theories about the Catholic Church, such as that it was started by Constantine.

For now, check the reaction at the "Ask Jesus" forum where this was posted.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), May 05, 2004.


Someone mentioned the Fullness of Truth.

St. Joseph Communication is affiliated with the Fullness of Truth Ministries.

Very orthodox Roman Catholic.

Anyone who knows me or have read my posts, knows that I'm very, very ecumenically minded.

When denominations started and why is very important in the dialogue toward unity. If there is misinformation on one side or another, it needs to be addressed.

My idea is: forget the reformation and what caused it. There were complex reasons, both theological and political.

Let's concentrate on the common ground. Jesus and his teachings.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), May 05, 2004.


Well, apparently some people didn't understand why Protestants would take offense at this site. Perhaps I am wrong, then? I know when I was a Protestant I think I would have. The general Protestant understanding of the "Christian Church" does not involve one's own denomination. For example, it mentions that the "Anglican" church began in 1534 with Henry VIII in England. I would guess, however, that most Anglicans would say that the Church (ie. all Christians) was also begun by Jesus in 33 AD. Most do not believe that this was the Catholic Church, otherwise they would join.

I agree with Steve's analogy of pieces of pie - that's quite clever. Obviously however, Protestants do not agree, otherwise they would become Catholic. They generally do not believe that any one institution (such as the Catholic Church or their own denomination) has the entire truth. Rather, they believe that truth is contained in the Bible alone.

Well, anyway, I've seen this t-shirt advertised before (after I was already wanting to become Catholic), and I got a queesy feeling about it. It seems that it will do more harm than good. Let me put it this way - how would you like to see a Protestant wearing a shirt that says that the Catholic Church was begun by Constantine (some people really believe this). It is a cheap one-liner to discredit an entire church. Well, that's basically the same thing this site is doing.

If you are still unclear about my meaning, please feel free to ask further questions (preferably specific) and I will try to address them to the best of my ability.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), May 05, 2004.


Jalapeno said: I would have to guess the author does have love and kindness for others because he took the time to make this web page which shows the truth.

I agree, and also Steve mentioned this, I think. It seems (I would hope) that the site's author had good intentions, that became a bit misdirected. I do agree that on one level the site shows the truth about denominations (as I agree with the Catholic viewpoint), however on another level it is deceptive. It is entirely possible that the author of this site is unaware of this problem. Perhaps I will write to them.

David said: I am learning from Emily.

I'm glad that I can help in some way :) I did not realize how much impact my comments would have! However, I should thank you and I am very grateful that you told me about the CMSWR nuns. So we all learn from each other I guess :)

Brian said: To me, there is nothing offensive about the site. It's the truth. How can one be offended by listing the dates and founders of their church? But I've never been a Protestant. I'll accept what Emily says, because she has earned respect in this forum. But I still don't get it.

Thank you for your kindness, Brian. I believe it is the truth that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus. However, they do not. I guess the offensive part would be it's implication. I tried to elaborate more above. I think the best comparison I could give is if someone went around claiming that the Catholic Church was founded by Constantine. This would be offensive because we believe it's wrong. Well Protestants are offended because they believe that Jesus founded the general "Christian Church" to include all believers. I know one Protestant who says it's arrogant of Catholics to claim that they are the one Church Jesus founded. Well, it's not arrogant if it's true. But again, a site like this I think will only create problems. Perhaps in a rare case, it could be a good thing.

Brian said: I don't think originally that Zarove was offended so much by the site as by the title of the thread.

I can't speak for him. Well Zarove, what part did you think was offensive? I am portraying the Protestant perspective correctly? I was trying to do the best I could...

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), May 05, 2004.


Actually it was the whole intention o fthe thead I foudn offensive, no the site.

emily you are ding a good job of giving a general overview of the protestnat Position. Protestnatism isn't about joinig the "One true Chruch", rather, it is about joining the truth of the Bible and faith in God.

Likewise, Most protrstnas do no belive the origional Chruh was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD. Most educated Protestnts beelive the Cahtolci cch was an malgomation that evovled over the course of 3 or 4 centuries, rather than having a central founder and date.This veiw is shared by secular historians.

Soem do belive hat it was foudnd by Constantine, or else beelive it was founded by God initially then became apostate. ( Thi woudl be the theory that he Catolic chruc began to incorporate flase teachigns in, and needed a reformation, this was also the belif of Martain Luther.)

As to me againm the thread title,a nd its overall putpose, was what I was objecting to, not the website itsself, thoug it too is queationable.

Mainly, Andrew here wante to same protestnats, and basiclaly one up them wiht soem form of superiority. This was arrogance, and insult, and not soemthign oen shudl see form any sort of Christian.

It woidl be equivolant to me starting a thread named " A site that puts all Cahtolics to Shame" that lead to a list of abominaitons done by the Cahtlic Church. ( Such sites do exist, btu I spare the reader the links.)

YThe intention is malicious, and thus not acceptable to the mission of this baord, or to civil dialouge.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


Zarove,

How long are you going to hang out in this forum before we make a Catholic out of you, my Good Man? What's holding you back? I'm not trying to be contentious, I'm just curious. It intrigues me, all the non-catholics that hang out here, like yourself, Elpidio, Laurent etc. I'm always thinking that God's hand is guiding you guys here in order to convert you. Hey, I can hope right. :-)

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 05, 2004.


It is entirely possible that the author of this site is unaware of this problem. Perhaps I will write to them.

***Emily, I think it would be a great idea for you to write them, and let them know what you thought or how the site made you feel. They could probably express what their intention was/is far better than I. I do know many protestants who converted, and stated that what reached them was not someone treading softly. This is not for everyone, but maybe when one is truly ready for the truth they will see it no matter how presented. JMHO

God Bless.

-- Jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


I have my reasons...

-- ZAROVE (zaroff3@juno.com), May 05, 2004.

"I have my reasons..." I was hoping you'd open up just a wee bit :-(

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 05, 2004.

WILL elaborate later.

It isnt somehignt hat can be radily quatified, and I doubt a thread called " Why I am not Catholic" woul be advisable.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.


Zarove,

Fair enough. So you don't want me to start the "Why isn't Zarove a Catholic" thread eh. ;-) Dang it.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 06, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ