A Question for the protestants here

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

"[2] I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me." [KJV]

you have 3 gods - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

are you not in contravention of Sacred Scripture?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 04, 2004

Answers

Aren;t Cahtlics also in Bindage? Catolics have the saame three gods... its caled the trinity.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.

4 if you count Mary zarove

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.

Ian,

Perhaps you are confusing Protestants with some Mormons (who believe in 3 separate gods)? Most Protestants believe in the three persons in one idea (the Trinity), in agreement with the Catholic Church. Where are you getting your information from?

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.


Emily,

Ian is trying to show the need of an "infallible" interpreter and basically this is another attack on Sola Scriptura (if you didn't catch on to it)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


Luke, Catholics do NOT believe Mary is a god or God. Please stop misrepresenting our faith - this is wrong. I stood up against the Catholic who misrepresented Protestant beliefs. Please do not follow his pattern of promoting misinformation and deception. Kindly stick to the official teachings of whatever church your are referring to. How would you like it if I began misrepresenting your beliefs? Sorry if I come off harshly, I was trying not to. But this is something that has happened numerous times, and the misrepresentation of my Catholic faith angers me, offending me and my church. Kindly refrain from doing so in the future.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.



Here is my concern with Protestant style prayer:

Protestants pray in the name of Jesus. Why don't Protestants include "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"? Of course, some Protestants do: Lutherans, Anglicans, to name a few.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.


I htink Protestnats do it in the name of Jesus instead of "The Father, the son, and the Holy spirit" more for conveneince. Soem Catholics likewise do it, and its shorter. since Jesus is 100% God its all represented.

Some do say " Father, son, and Holy spirit" andsoem ust pray int he name of God.

I , personally, formed a habbit of talkign to God, just as HGod, and not in any other name. But that's just me.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 04, 2004.


Emily, as you requested, the teachings of your church.

Quotes taken from The Catechism of the Catholic Church,Libreria Editrice Vaticana, English Translation Copyright 1994, United States Catholic Conference.

"(Mary) by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." (pg 252)

"She (Mary) cooperated . . . in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls." (pg 252)

"O god,. . . grant, we beseech Thee, that, through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, His Mother, we may attain the joys of eternal life." (pg 253)

"Mary is called our mediatrix first because she cooperated in a unique way with Christ in his redemptive labors on earth. She is also mediatrix because she continues to intercede for us who are still working out our salvation on earth or suffering in purgatory." (pg 7)

If you still feel I've misrepresented your beliefs, please show me how.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.


Regina Coeli (A Prayer to Mary)

"Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears! Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus! O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary." (The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Official Revised Edition, copyright 1962).

According to this prayer, Mary is the source of mercy, our life and our hope. According to this prayer, Mary is our gracious advocate, our intercessor to Jesus.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.


Luke,

Even though it is obvious they give Mary attributes that God has, there will always deny it, and will claim you are misrepresenting them because they do not make her a God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.



If Mary isn't a god, why do you worship her?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.

"venerate",

they won't see it as idolatry, they see it as dulia, or hyper dulia.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.


I think Ian's question is directed at non-trinitarian sects, or "Jesus only" sects like some pentecostal groups and other. Some Protestants do pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as well as baptize in the three names.

Honestly, though, the description of the "trinity" in all mainline denominations AND the RCC is exactly the same; three natures, one person.

As to Mary, you guys just cannot get past your slanderous accusations no matter how many times you are told. . . WE DON'T WORSHIP MARY. She is a CREATURE!!! She is not pre-existent. She is not God incarnate. She was not born of a virgin. GET OVER IT! If you have something legitimate to critize us about based on OUR CATECHISM, then go for it, but if all you can is make up stuff then you just prove yourselves to be devoid of any meritorious argument from the get-go.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 04, 2004.


Gail,

After all this time, and so many explanations, I think they just like to pull our chain a bit. I think they're having fun with us so they can watch us get all indignant and re-explain everything all over again..... "Lets make the Catholics explain Mary to us again" "We'll make like we still don't get it." (and watch the fun begin again)

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 04, 2004.


Of course you don't worship Mary, Gail. Pope John Paul VI was lying when he made these statements:

"The worship of the Virgin (Mary) has deep roots in the revealed Word together with solid dogmatic foundations.."

"We wish to underline: the worship which the universal church renders to the All-holy-one (Mary) is a derivation, promulgation and unceasing increase of the worship that the Church has attributed in every age (to Mary). . ."

"it reflects in the forms of worship and redemptive plan of God, by which the extraordinary worship for her (Mary), as also, every authentic progress in Christian worship is necessarily followed by a correct increase in the veneration of the Mother of the Lord."

"From the time that we were called to the Chair of St. Peter, we have constantly worked to increase the worship of Mary (culto mariano)"

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.



"If you have something legitimate to critize us about based on OUR CATECHISM, then go for it, but if all you can is make up stuff then you just prove yourselves to be devoid of any meritorious argument from the get-go."- Gail

I guess you didn't actually read my posts.

"I think they're having fun with us so they can watch us get all indignant and re-explain everything all over again..... "- Jim

I don't think you have to explain anything Jim. We all understand perfectly well, and thats why you're indignant.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


David

this has been taken off-topic, but you have decide not to enforce your own forum rules.

i asked about the Trinity. i wanted to invite a protestant to give me Scripture supporting their monotheism and comformity with the first Commandment.

all i got was cul-de-sac anti-Mother of God diatribe. that is off topic. you have rules to protect the forum against that, should you choose to play fair.

i have started a further thread looking for a serious on-point answer to this. i look forward to protestants convincing me that they are not pantheistic - from Scripture.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), May 05, 2004.


Hi Luke,

I'm not indignant,... just having some fun.

-- JimFurst (furst@flash.net), May 05, 2004.


Hi Luke,

Are your quotes from Pope Paul VI or Pope John Paul II? Maybe one day we'll have a Pope John Paul VI. Do you know something we don't? ;)

Do you have references for those quotes? I'd like to see the document they were pulled from. I don't doubt these are accurate quotes, just want to see the context. Thanks.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 05, 2004.


1 JOHN, CHAPTER 5 , VERSES 7 AND 8.

7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


Have a read of this.

The thread about the different versions of 1 John 5 is still corrupt since the mad bomber hit us.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


1 John 5:7

" And it is the Spirit who is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth."

http://www.oldpaths.org/Library/Comments/Hess/123John/1jo5.html#v7

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Bottom line:

[If you are a believer in the Trinity, it is because the Catholic Church has taught you to believe in the Trinity.]
Don't go an deny that. The Church has taught you well.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Yes a site that use CE instead of AD and "Modern scholarship" based larfgley on thir own theories rather than facts.

I will look into the real evidence, and get back to you.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.


By the way, the site you posted ofm is a Jehova's witness site, do you relaly rust that?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 05, 2004.

Hi Zarove.

I trust no one. I do wish David would restore the old thread regarding 1 John 5:7.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


It is quite possible that the JWs would try to refute the Church, but in so doing, they shoot themselves in the foot by proving the Church to be correct.

.............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Interesting that you should point out the "CE" . The books I'm currently reading use the "Current Era" instead of "Anno Domini" designation. I believe that you are correct in your implications of the authors being more non-believers than believers. I too questioned their use of "CE". It is as if they are saying that Jesus was just a character in history that "might" have existed instead of acknowledging His real existence and reason for being. In other words, to them, Salvation is a myth.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


"I do wish David would restore the old thread regarding 1 John 5:7." - rod

Well, it's about time someone suggested a thread to be restored. Rod, I'll work on it.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), May 05, 2004.


It occured to me that us veteran posters know what is contained in this forum. We could pull those threads on a needs basis as topics demand for those threads to be activated. "1 John 5:7" is one example.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


From your link, Rod,one can see to what extent Trinitarians have gone to make Jesus God.

Excerpt from your link: In the _Interpreter's Bible_ which can be found in about any county library, the following is stated concerning 1 John 5:7ff:

"This verse in the KJV is to be rejected (with RSV). It appears in no ancient Greek MS nor is it cited by any Greek fathers; of all the versions only the Latin contained it, and even this in none of its most ancient sources. The earliest MSS of the Vulg. do not have it. As [CH] Dodd (Johannine Epistles, p. 127n) reminds us, "It is first quoted as a part of 1 John by Priscillian, the Spanish heretic, who died in 385, and it gradually made its way into MSS of the Latin Vulgate until it was accepted as part of the authorized Latin text." The mention in the true text (vs. 8) of the three witnesses which agree naturally led to an interpretation along trinitarian lines, and this occasioned the present gloss which appears in various forms in MSS and quotations from the fifth century onward" (Interpreter's Bible, 293-294).

The Trinity is made believe history.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 05, 2004.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ